Werewolf XLVI - Sun And Shadow (Game Thread) - Game Over! Cultists win!

[Peregrine]

Long ago, wolves attacked a small village by a river, causing days of confusion and death. The wolves and mages from a certain evil cult were driven off, though they continued to brood over the village from their cliffside compound. What evil rites they practiced there were unknown. For a time the villagers assumed that the King's men, bearing the power of the Sun Gods, would wipe the place clean, but they waited for months, then two years, and it has not happened yet.

Meanwhile, in the cult itself, the Dark Pact has continued undisturbed. Unknown to anyone outside, the cliff their home is dug into is the home of an ancient civilization, and they have used the relics found within to improve their own powers. Though at the time of their defeat in the village by the river they thought they might be attacked, it hasn't happened, though rumors are rampant that a spy or spies might have infiltrated their ranks.

Deep in the cliffside tunnels, a mysterious relic was found, an ancient coffer encrusted with runes and fairly glowing with power, as well as a certain malevolence. The mages of the cult gathered together their best to perform a ritual to open the coffer, and safely contain whatever was inside. The power of eighteen of the cult's best was focused on the coffer, protected by a ritual circle and glowing with reflected magic.

Then something happened.

It was chaos, people shouting, some falling to the ground, but the coffer yawned open, and it seemed the mouth of Hell was inside. A great Shadow force leaped out, slashing past all barriers, and in the chaos it disappeared into one of the mages. One of you.

You were fortunate that the other members of your cult thought fast and managed to seal off your section of the fortress. If this evil force gets out, there's no telling what damage it may cause. In the meantime, you are all trapped here, with whatever relics and personal power you have, to contain this evil, or else it will overwhelm you all.

Are you up to the challenge?



Player List:

1) Mustang
2) BrianD
3) ntndeacon
4) Joe
5) Swaggs
6) Barkeep49
7) Kwhit
8) Lathum
9) Chief Rum
10) Schmidty
11) Mr. Wednesday
12) hoopsguy
13) DaddyTorgo
14) ImTheCrew
15) Tyrith
16) Path12
17) Alan T
18) SnDvls



Rules:


The Shadow

The Shadow starts with one player, and gains a second on Night 0. After that, each night they can try to gain more recruits. As a night action, each Shadow player chooses one player to try to convert, he focuses his shadow energies on him. As more are converted, the power of the shadow being is split among them. The first conversion had a 100% chance to succeed, when there are two players, each has 50%, when three, each has 33%, and so forth. The more the Shadow spirit is divided the harder it is for him to focus his energies for more conversions. Once the votes are sent to the GM I will total them up and start with the person receiving the most votes. Any total Shadow force that's 50% or more means an automatic conversion, IF the target player can be found and is not protected somehow. After that I will go down the list by percentage. It's possible no one will be converted in a given night, but there will never be more than one person converted.

Once a player has been converted by the Shadow, they can no longer use their original magical role. They can continue to use mundane roles if they wish.

The Shadow players will be able to communicate with all the other Shadow players, through a method I will reveal to them.

It's important to note that the Shadow players DO NOT know the identity of the other Shadow players. They can reveal themselves if they wish, but this will open them up to exposure if/when any of the other Shadows are cleansed. This also applies if they agree to vote for a certain person, but it might be worthwhile if they want to convert a key person. They will be able to communicate with each other, but anonymously.


The Sun

Two spies of the king and the Sun Gods have infiltrated the cult and are trying to learn about it to bring it down. Faced with the Shadow threat, they have no choice but to take action. The exact abilities of the Sun spies are known only to themselves. While the cult members naturally want to discover the spies and kill them, the threat of the Shadow is even greater, and they will take any ally they can get for the moment.


The Count

Fortunately for the cult members, one of the mages left outside is the powerful Seer, and has the ability to detect Shadow energy.

This means that at the start of each day, the players will receive an accurate count of how many Shadow players there are. This will not reveal anything about their identities.



Voting

Each day all players can vote publicly for whoever they want, and can change their votes as many times as they want. This is called the name vote. They also must vote publicly whether they want to punish the person who receives the most votes, or show mercy. This is a separate vote, called the punishment vote, and will apply to whoever gets the most votes! All name votes must be received by 7:30 pm EST, however, there is a small grace period until 8 pm EST, where anyone can change their punishment votes ONLY. This will allow players to make an informed decision knowing who the victim will be. If you won't be around for that time of day, make sure to get your punishment vote in before then!

Ties in the name vote can be broken by particular roles or magical items. If the tie is not broken, no punishment happens that day.

Ties in the punishment vote end in a result of mercy.


Punishment/Mercy

If the punishment vote ends in punishment, the most serious ritual known to the cult is applied - the cleansing. This powerful spell strips the player of all their magical powers, including their magical role! After a player is cleansed they can still use any mundane role they have, as well as magical items, and retain all voting power.

If a player was corrupted by the Shadow, the cleansing removes this, and they revert back to their previous loyalty to the cult.

Important Note - Cleansed players remember everything they learned as a Shadow player, including the identities of other Shadow players, and who they voted for. Of course, given the Shadow mechanic above, a vote doesn't mean that player was necessarily corrupted.

If the punishment vote ends in Mercy, another spell is placed on the player, the Circle of Sleep. This magical cirle will prevent them from taking any night actions that night (including Shadow attempts,) or being targeted by any night actions other than Search, Steal, or Dose.


The Complex / Sleep

The area that is sealed off is an L-shaped hallway and several rooms, in addition to the Ritual Room. Each night along with their night actions a player must indicate which room they want to sleep in that night. If nothing is sent in, they will sleep in the Ritual Room. Note that some of the rooms have space limits, so only a certain amount of people will be able to sleep there. Any extras will be kicked to the Ritual Room. Some players might have roles or abilities that let them hide in some way, in which case they can designate their hidden area.

Available Rooms:

Ritual Room - This is the largest, a big shadowy area with lots of room to sleep.

Storage Room - A smallish room with old robes, unused magical paraphenilia, and so forth.

Kitchen - Luckily the kitchen of the complex is here, so no one will starve.

Alchemy Closet - A cramped closet with a heavy door to prevent any explosions from damaging everything else.

Sitting Room - A medium sized area with some comfortable furniture.

Chamber of Rest - This area contains a few cots for mages who needed to rest between experiments.



Actions available to all:

You can choose to do one of these three actions during the night, INSTEAD OF the night action given to you by your role. The only exceptions are that once per game each player can perform one of these actions in addition to another action, (ex. magical role + dose, or search + steal) and you can always dose yourself in addition to another action. (see below) All of these actions have a chance of you being seen by someone.

Note that a few roles have daytime actions or no nighttime actions (Signifier, Sorceror) and so they can take one of these actions each night.


Search - This action allows you to search a particular room you name for magical items. Message the GM with the room you wish to search. Note that some of the magical items listed below are easier to find early in the game and others are easier to find late in the game. All players will be given a free Search action during Night 0, representing the scramble to find weapons against the Shadow.


Steal - This nefarious action lets you name a person, and try to search them for magic items, robbing whatever you can (normally one item.) If the person can be found and is sleeping, stealing with have a good chance of success. If they are not in the room or are protected somehow the action will fail.


Dose - This action lets you give someone a potion. As stated above, you can dose yourself with a potion you have as a free action. Message the GM with who you want to dose, and what potion you want to use. If they can be found and are sleeping, dosing them will automatically succeed. If they are not in the room or are protected somehow, the action will fail.


Order of Actions:

Lynch by 7:30/8:00 PM EST
Night actions must be in by midnight EST
Remember each player should send in a sleep location each night!
Dose
Magical Night Actions
Shadow Corruption
Search
Steal
Morning Count

[Peregrine]

Magical Items

There are a number of magical items scattered around the complex. This is most of, but not all, the magical items that can be potentially found. Note that some of the items can only be used at night, others only during the day, and some at either time.

Message me with any specific questions.


Potion of Weariness - A person who drinks this potion is unable to cast a vote in either vote the next day, but able to speak normally.

Potion of Alertness - A person who drinks this potion is active and alert through the night, and able to see what goes on in his room. This gives him a good chance to identify people that come in and what they are doing. Also, this potion makes even the magical sleep of the mercy option or other magical abilities impossible.

Potion of Sleep - This potion will put a person to sleep for the night, they will not be able to take a night action, and night actions on them are more successful.

Potion of Power - This potion is said to drastically increase magical power, temporarily. If it is drunk by someone who has been cleansed, it miraculously restores their powers and their former role (but not any former Shadow corruption.) If it is drunk by a normal person, it boosts their magical powers for the next day and night cycles after it is taken. This allows night actions to be much more effective and useful (even for the Shadow!) and also makes a person immune to cleansing during the next day cycle.

Potion of Masking - This potion is only effective when taken at night. It sheathes the drinker in a magical mask that allows him to shrug off all night actions aimed at them, including Shadow attempts.

Potion of Darkness - IMPORTANT! This potion used to be something useful but has been corrupted by the Shadow's arrival. When found, it will look like one of the other potions. When drunk, horrible things can happen, up to and including being corrupted by the Shadow. This potion is fortunately rare.

Scroll of Identity - This magical parchment can be read one time, to magically learn the role of one player. This will reveal both magical and mundane roles, but not whether a person is corrupted or not. Note that in the case of the Sun spies, this will reveal their TRUE role.


Ring of Shadows - This ancient ring grants the power of invisibility by drawing shadows to the user. It can be used on two different nights to protect the player from harm. Also, if desired it can be used once (and destroyed) to use a night action to search out the shadow beings and find one of them.

Mask of Whispers - This is a small mask that can be put over the lower part of the face. It allows the wearer to once each day send one short (two lines or less) PM message to someone, and get a short message in reply. Must run through the GM, you can identify yourself or not.

Triune Pyramid - A small golden pyramid which if possessed, makes the bearer immune to other magical effects, including items, being corrupted by shadow, and even being cleansed. However, there is an increasing chance it will shatter if exposed to a lot of magical stress.

Ritual Dagger - This long dagger is made of gleaming silver and is used in certain darker rituals. It has been tied into the magical abilities of everyone in the coven, and so can be used to find a specifed person even if they are hiding or using another magical ability to hide themselves. The dagger can be used as a free night action.

Seal of Command - This seal of enchanted black wax boosts the user's command capabilities, people listen to him or her. It can be used to break a tie in either the name or the punishment vote. Contact the GM by 8:00 PM EST with who you choose.

Ring of Wisdom - This Ring allows the user to cast one secret vote each day. The vote is a name vote only, not a punishment vote. The vote must be sent to the GM before the deadline and will be announced immediately. It cannot be changed. Once the vote is cast the GM will announce "The Ring of Wisdom casts a vote for XYZ!"



Magical Roles

Each player will be assigned one of these roles. If you would like you can try to do a role revealing strategy, but note that some of these roles are going to be particular Shadow targets.

Signifier - The player has the powerful magic ability to once each day (as a day action) indicate one statement and learn whether it is true or false. Note that this is not intended to allow coerced situations where everyone is forced to say "I am good!" Such situations muddle the truth and the ability will be wasted.

Warlock - This role allows you to cast a powerful hex on another player, three times per game. This must be done as a night action, you choose another player and they sleep soundly, unable to perform any night actions.

Medium - As a night action you can see through someone else's eyes. What you see might reveal their role, or might reveal nothing.

Artificer - You were the first to study the artifact, and a trickle of shadow energy made its way to you, despite the seals. It has been working through you enough that you believe embracing it would be the ultimate source of power. Each night you can make an action to study one player and determine if they have been embraced by the Shadow or not. You want to protect them, and hope to become one in time. Also, if you are cleansed, you are still loyal to the evil side, and don't have to confess their names.

Alchemist - During the course of the game, you can make three potions, either of Weariness, Alertness, Masking, or Sleep. You can only have one potion at a time - ie, you have to use the first one before you can make the second one. You can't make the same potion more than once.

Diabolist - You specialize in the summoning of demons, a dark and risky magic that is even shunned by most members of the cult. Three times during the game, as a night action, he can choose a player and find out what magical role that player has. He will not learn if a player if affected by the Shadow this way.

Ritualist - You can draw sorcerous circles that can keep magical powers out, or in. Three times per game you can choose to draw a barrier which will protect one room from any outside actions or influences. Players can take actions inside the protected room but they have a higher chance of being noticed. The circles will be drawn as a day action, so message the GM before the deadline if you want to do this, and which room you want to protect.

Spiritmaster - You have expertise in speaking with spirits and the dead. Twice per game you can summon up spirits that will protect the room you're in, guarding against any intrusion at night.

Researcher - You have the ability to identify magical items and have learned much about them. Each night you can pick a magic item from the list and try to find out where it is currently located, if successful you will learn which room it is in or who has it. You can also identify if a potion is a Potion of Darkness.

Sorceror - You care about nothing except magical power. You have quite a lot of it now, and if you were corrupted by the shadow, you're pretty sure you'd have even more. You are immune to magical sleep of any kind.

Summoner - You have a small imp as your creation, that can act independently and follow your orders. Each night you can give it a simple order - "Follow so and so" "Guard me and make sure nothing happens" "Steal an item from Player X." Your pet is not completely reliable, however, and there is a 25% each night that it will not follow your orders.

Augur - You have the power to follow magical trails through the ether. In this case, you can attempt each night to track the shadow (or Sun) energies. If you do so, you have a 50% chance of seeing either where the energy starts or where it finishes, a 25% chance of not seeing anything, and a 25% chance of having the energy focus on you instead!

Theurgist - You can focus a magical field which will block other forms of magic from taking place. Each night you may specify a person, and they will not be able to use any magical abilities. You can't choose the same person more than two nights in a row. Note that this does not give you any knowledge of what their abilities are.

Witch - You have the power to work through people's dreams. Each night you can take a night action to send someone a message through their dreams. The message is necessarily vague and will not always be sent accurately. Alternately, you can use the same action to study someone's dreams. You have to be near them to do this (in the same room) but if you are successful you may learn something about them, including their role and possibly their past actions.

Wizard - Despite being in the coven, you've grown increasingly worried about things here, because you're basically a good person and want to get out. Each night as a night action you can check someone to see if they are a member of the Sun faction. You also have a Sun Amulet which gives you a powerful ability - you can't be corrupted by the Shadow.

Enchanter - You command the power of the enchantments that run through the very walls of the complex. Each night you can specify one room, and you will be notified if any major magical powers are used there (this includes Shadow corruption but also some of the other roles.) You will have a smaller chance to find out who used them.

Craft Mage - You have the ability to build and unbuild magical items. It takes time to build a magical item, but over three night actions, you can make any of the non-potion items on the list. Also, if you choose, you can destroy a magical item. To do this, you have to know the item and who has it.

Elementalist - You have the power to command rock and stone, and can move through them from room to room without being seen. This will also allow you to escape from a magical circle created by the Ritualist.

[Peregrine]

Victory Conditions:

The overall victory conditions are that the cult members want to get rid of the Shadow, and the Shadow wants to overwhelm the cult members. The Sun spies want to avoid detection and survive.

If the Shadow players ever are the majority of the uncleansed players, they win the game.

If the cult members destroy all the Shadow players, or the Shadow is reduced to one player for two consecutive Counts, the cult members win.

The Sun players win if they defeat the Shadow and they have not been unmasked as spies.

There are other, individual victory conditions as well.

[Peregrine]

Roles have been sent out. If you found a magical item in your Night 0 search, it's been included in the PM. PM me with any questions.


Oh yes, I assume there will be no nonsense involving posting my PMs, editing posts, and so forth. Standard WW etiquette applies.

Game on!

[Schmidty]

Day off, and I should be waking up at 3 p.m. EST. I will likely be gone unti;; the dealine or so.

[Peregrine]

Just so everyone knows, I work at night, so I can handle all the night actions easily enough, but during the day I'm normally asleep from 8 am till 1-2 pm, then again at night after the lynch. I'll be around, but if I'm not, especially in the morning, be patient.

[hoopsguy]

Cultist checking in. Let's see if we can isolate this Shadow power before it perverts our order.

I'm counting 18 magical roles listed, which exactly matches the number of people in this section of the compound. So I expect that the roles listed are all-inclusive. I'll go out on a limb and state that my role is one of those listed.

The magic item section suggests that there may be a few additions so I would expect to see some non-listed mechanics from there.

I'm interested to hear what people make of the rules early - any non-traditional approaches for Day 1 that we should be considering?

[Chief Rum]

I'm a cultist as well. I don't think it's a good idea to say anything else about what I am, though, or for anyone to do it until we have a handle on what everything does.

Toward that end, I would recommend organize the roles and the items into "classifications" to help us get an idea what we have here, and what would be the most useful.

In other words, someone should go through the list and determine which roles/items are information-seeking, information-hiding, attack, defense types. Any other classifications to consider?

Once we have that set, then we can attempt to rank them from most important to least important and focus our efforts on getting the critical items and roles under our control.

I would do all this myself, but I am unfortunately at the beginning of another two-day, two-job stretch and will be available to post only early in the morning or late, late at night.

It's going to be a bear to try and catch up on what this thread will be tomorrow night. Oh well...

[Alan T]

I agree that my role is also listed as one of the 18 there. As far as I know, my PM didn't say anything about me having any items or such, so as far as I know, I just start with my magical role.

[hoopsguy]

As a default action, do people see Punishment or Mercy to be the better choice for the benefit of our cult? Why?

[DaddyTorgo]

got my PM. checking in. didn't get to read up on the game rules+mechanics last night, so i will refrain from commenting about anything, it seems pretty confusing.

will try to sneak a peak at reading it during the day, for sure.

[Barkeep49]

Ok just as I did in Alan's tombstone game I advocate a mass reveal. In that game certain roles turned out to be bad guys and I think when we find our first baddie and see what kind of role he has we could gain possible insight.

As for the punishment/mercy vote, I'm torn. I have a feeling mercy will be the Day 1 result, but all that does is place us in a holding pattern. With no deaths, I think it's quite obvious that the shadows have a conversion ability. Not sure what to make of that and how that should affect the punishment/mercy decision.

[DaddyTorgo]

okay i lied. apparently i have very little to do this AM, so i am going to try to catch up now before things get busy, and see what exactly is up.

[Alan T]

It appears that mercy won't tell us much about who is affected by the shadow, and definitly won't help us release people from that corruption. As always, our most powerful tool for fighting the evil is the punishment. Those that are afraid to inflict that punishment are the doorways for the shadow to enter.

The only time mercy should be shown is in the case of a person's neck being on the line and giving indisputible last minute evidence that they are not affected by the shadow. That leads us to a second question, if all of the roles listed above are in the game, simply stating a role there won't necessarily be an indicator of innocence.

[hoopsguy]

Barkeep, do you think a certain role was granted the lead bad guy or that it was random.org assigning it?

If the latter, then I think certain roles would be more attractive for the first Shadow to target for his 100% conversion ability. And following that logic, I can see some benefits in the mass reveal strategy. But we also give the Shadow a road map to attack us if there is no correlation between role and Shadow. Maybe I haven't spent enough time looking at each of the roles but I don't see that strong linkage that there was in Alan's game.

[DaddyTorgo]

sure...a mass reveal sounds like a great idea. it will render my role effectively useless, but *shrug*

Okay, I think I'm caught up on a lot of things here, so I think I'm ready to dive in.

[DaddyTorgo]

so since we're on Day 1, I take it Night 0 has already happened right? So there are 2 shadow among us?

[DaddyTorgo]

not quite sure i understand the value of a mass-reveal...if the shadow doesn't have that information it would make it harder for them to target powerful roles for conversion. and if someone is on the block and they have a powerful role we have the mercy option if it gets that far.

look at the artificer or the sorcerer...do we really want them identified for the shadow?

[DaddyTorgo]

werewolf quad-dola

i've probably said too much, but i don't think i agree with you on the mass-reveal strategy barkeep.

[DaddyTorgo]

so can the craft mage build another ring of shadows? I think that might be a really good idea...just don't answer and make yourself a target

[DaddyTorgo]

that's 5 posts in a row...i'm on fire

[Tyrith]

Checking in. We can be a little more willy nilly with the punishment in this game than normal, I feel, because we do keep the count correct. I would sure like to know what we're targeting before we strip it, though.

[DaddyTorgo]

i don't think a mass reveal is wise though, contrary to what Barkeep suggests. there are 2-3 people who look like their roles would be VERY attractive to the Shadow. No reason to draw a roadmap for the Shadow, as we can't possibly protect them all, every night.

or am i missing something?

[KWhit]

Cultist checking in. I do indeed possess one of the magical roles listed above.

[DaddyTorgo]

magical roles rock. i've got one.

hey guys! welcome to the thread!

[Tyrith]

i don't think a mass reveal is wise though, contrary to what Barkeep suggests. there are 2-3 people who look like their roles would be VERY attractive to the Shadow. No reason to draw a roadmap for the Shadow, as we can't possibly protect them all, every night.

or am i missing something?

No, I mostly agree with you, it'd be pretty easy for shadow to manipulate us into a situation where we start stripping our good roles out if we let them know who they are.

BTW, I also possess one of the listed roles. It's going to be useful to us that people stay alive after they're stripped, so we can detect any fake role reveal jazz that wolves might use to keep themselves in business. Another game for that thread to discuss :P

[DaddyTorgo]

i'm hoping the Shadow won't be long for this world.

[KWhit]

I think DT wants to make sure he doesn't get lynched for inactivity.

[BrianD]

I will join those that suggest a mass-reveal might be bad. That seems like a perfect way to ensure that our really helpful roles go over to the bad side.

[DaddyTorgo]

KWhit...it's not one of the things i'm generally worried about. just...trying to avoid work on a rainy, tired monday morning (didn't have any coffee...laid back down after i ate breakfast for 20 minutes, etc.). Well that and I've been having great success with AGEOD's ACW game, particularly last night, so I'm trying to plan my next moves in my head as I work. And thinking more about the interview I have at 3:30 than the database updating I'm doing for this client company.

[KWhit]

As far as the mercy/punish question goes:

I think what we should do is as we get later in the afternoon and the votes start coming in, we should require the main candidates for lynch to reveal their roles.

It can be valuable information for us to use to solidify our votes and determine if we want to consider mercy if they win the vote. In fact, we should make it an unwritten rule that in order to even be considered for mercy, you have to reveal your role. If you don't, then we definitely choose punishment.

Note: I'm not advocating a mass role reveal - only a reveal for those that are in the running for lynch vote as the day goes on - especially when it becomes obvious that it is a two or three horse race for lynch.

[Mustang]

Checking in.

Everyone should have a magical role until they are cleaned.

As for everyone revealing, I'm not too sure about that. Although, there are a handful of roles that would be helpful to be revealed at the right time. Am I correct in assuming there is a little better than a 5% chance this game could end in the next 10 hours?

[DaddyTorgo]

Checking in.

Everyone should have a magical role until they are cleaned.

As for everyone revealing, I'm not too sure about that. Although, there are a handful of roles that would be helpful to be revealed at the right time. Am I correct in assuming there is a little better than a 5% chance this game could end in the next 10 hours?

where do you get that 5% chance from mustang?

[hoopsguy]

Mustang, the Shadow got a Night 0 conversion if I'm reading the rules correctly. So I don't think it can end today. However, if we catch Shadow today and tomorrow we would keep them at one member for back-to-back days which is a victory condition.

[SnDvls]

cultist checking. I'll also confirm I have a listed role

[ImTheCrew]

Checking in..... ill reveal if nessicary

[ImTheCrew]

Checking in..... ill reveal if nessicary
cultist BTW

[DaddyTorgo]

mmmm...i want me some Shadow.

[DaddyTorgo]

think i want me some coffee more though

[ntndeacon]

The only reason I am concerned about the punishment phase is the loss of a potential useful role against the shadow.

[ntndeacon]

Oh I am a cultist with one of those magical roles listed.

[DaddyTorgo]

i might vote ntn just cuz he didn't make it back to his computer so i could point out how CR was the wolf in the small game *winks*

naw, i'm not really upset bout that though ntn. just playin

[BrianD]

Mustang, the Shadow got a Night 0 conversion if I'm reading the rules correctly. So I don't think it can end today. However, if we catch Shadow today and tomorrow we would keep them at one member for back-to-back days which is a victory condition.

Anyone else think the back-to-back days at one member might be a tough condition to reach? At one member the shadow gets a 100% conversion. We would have to know about both of the last two shadow members to vote them out consecutively. Sounds like it could be tough.

[Peregrine]

so since we're on Day 1, I take it Night 0 has already happened right? So there are 2 shadow among us?


That is correct.

[Tyrith]

Anyone else think the back-to-back days at one member might be a tough condition to reach? At one member the shadow gets a 100% conversion. We would have to know about both of the last two shadow members to vote them out consecutively. Sounds like it could be tough.

The conversion could fail somehow. The 100 percent only looks like if it's unimpeded.

[DaddyTorgo]

well that's why i think the mercy thing is there. if people want mercy they can role-reveal hmm?

although, one other thing to note. i gather since there are the same # of roles as players that the shadow players likely have a public "role" that is sort of a disguise, so for all we know, even if someone role-reveals as something it doesn't discount them being the shadow.

now time for mid-day coffee!

[ntndeacon]

i might vote ntn just cuz he didn't make it back to his computer so i could point out how CR was the wolf in the small game *winks*

naw, i'm not really upset bout that though ntn. just playin

I shoulda listened to you ...you werent a wolf after all. May the shadow stay away from you as well as me.

[Peregrine]

Also, just to clarify the roles and the way the Shadow works. There aren't specific Shadow roles, there's just the Shadow. It's like one spirit divided up among a bunch of people, like a hive mind.

[BrianD]

The conversion could fail somehow. The 100 percent only looks like if it's unimpeded.

Good point. I had overlooked that.

[Mustang]

Ahh.. ok. Was thinking there was one shadow and then they would convert at night to make 2..

Didn't think Peregrine would allow the game to end after 12 hours on a fluke. :)

[DaddyTorgo]

I shoulda listened to you ...you werent a wolf after all. May the shadow stay away from you as well as me.

oh it's okay. that CR is a devious bastard. i just kept hoping you'd come back to your computer so i could point out what i noticed to you. ah well...it's just a game.

[Peregrine]

Anyone else think the back-to-back days at one member might be a tough condition to reach? At one member the shadow gets a 100% conversion. We would have to know about both of the last two shadow members to vote them out consecutively. Sounds like it could be tough.

It could be tough, but I put this in because otherwise it would be near-impossible to defeat the Shadow unless you ran out of people entirely. My idea with this is that if you're really suspicious of someone being that last Shadow, you can use some of your roles to keep an eye on them or keep them confined, and limit their chances to get someone that night.

[Mustang]

Also, just to clarify the roles and the way the Shadow works. There aren't specific Shadow roles, there's just the Shadow. It's like one spirit divided up among a bunch of people, like a hive mind.

Instead of Sheeple they are Sheedow...

Ah.. nevermind.

[BrianD]

It could be tough, but I put this in because otherwise it would be near-impossible to defeat the Shadow unless you ran out of people entirely. My idea with this is that if you're really suspicious of someone being that last Shadow, you can use some of your roles to keep an eye on them or keep them confined, and limit their chances to get someone that night.

That makes sense. I usually have to read the setup multiple times during the early days of the game to make the mechanics stick in my mind. I see now that there are defenses against conversion so while it may not be easy to get 2 days, it won't be impossible either.

[Mustang]

Although.. guess it is still possible to have it end pretty quick. If we got REALLY lucky and cleansed the initial Shadow person, he could tell us who he converted and then you block/protect vs that person tonight.

Unless I'm missing something yet again.

[Lathum]

Cultist checking in.

I also think a mass reveal is a horrible idea.

I do have a question, if it has been answered I apologize. If there is no shadow conversion at night do we find out about it as if there was a no kill in a typical WW game?

[Peregrine]

Although.. guess it is still possible to have it end pretty quick. If we got REALLY lucky and cleansed the initial Shadow person, he could tell us who he converted and then you block/protect vs that person tonight.

Unless I'm missing something yet again.

I gave the Shadow a random reveal on Night 0, they don't know the other's identities, unless they choose to reveal them. It's still possible for a relatively quick ending though, or a long one. I'm not sure how it will play out.

[Peregrine]

I do have a question, if it has been answered I apologize. If there is no shadow conversion at night do we find out about it as if there was a no kill in a typical WW game?

You find out the count of Shadow players every morning, so this should give you a pretty good idea if there was a conversion or not.

[Peregrine]

And I should have said this before, but today's Count is 2.

[Lathum]

You find out the count of Shadow players every morning, so this should give you a pretty good idea if there was a conversion or not.

ok. thanks.

I just want to throw this out there that I have a sleeping potion that I am considering using tonight. Lemme know what you all think because I think this could acomplish a couple of things.

1. If there is no conversion I possibly got lucky on a longshot. I realize this is a gamble but it could be worth it if we get a shadow early.

2. The person I used it on can confirm I used it on them and I can confirm they were my choice and we can start a loose COT.

[KWhit]

2. The person I used it on can confirm I used it on them and I can confirm they were my choice and we can start a loose COT.

Not sure how that could start a COT.

[Mustang]

I gave the Shadow a random reveal on Night 0, they don't know the other's identities, unless they choose to reveal them. It's still possible for a relatively quick ending though, or a long one. I'm not sure how it will play out.

Ok. Looks like you covered those initial easy ending scenarios. :)

[Lathum]

Not sure how that could start a COT.

Because if there is a shadow conversion it would be a safe assumption the person I used it on is clean.

[Lathum]

I pretty much just figured out it is going to be next to impossible to form a COT this game.

[Lathum]

Is it just me or does this seem like an impossible game for the good guys to win ( which I am one) unless we win it very early?

[KWhit]

I pretty much just figured out it is going to be next to impossible to form a COT this game.


Yep. It's going to be tough, since each shadow person can try to convert someone.

So if you put someone to sleep and there is a conversion, it doesn't mean the person you targeted is clean. It just means that they weren't the one to make that particular conversion.

[hoopsguy]

If we cleanse a Shadow, and they have names, then this becomes a very easy game for us to win.

If they keep quiet with each other, then there is a much greater chance that the Shadows take sub-optimal actions each night. I guess it depends, to some extent, on how they are able to communicate. That was not spelled out in the rules, but it sounds like some method outside of FOFC is available.

[hoopsguy]

Not sure how that could start a COT.

Because if there is a shadow conversion it would be a safe assumption the person I used it on is clean.

Additionally it could help with tracking night actions - if Lathum is dropping a potion on someone then we know what his night action is (assuming he can't use both a magic item and a role ability in the same phase).

[KWhit]

Additionally it could help with tracking night actions - if Lathum is dropping a potion on someone then we know what his night action is (assuming he can't use both a magic item and a role ability in the same phase).

That I agree with. I just get nervous when people start typing COT so early.

I'm just not a very trusting fellow.

[Lathum]

So if you put someone to sleep and there is a conversion, it doesn't mean the person you targeted is clean. It just means that they weren't the one to make that particular conversion.

I understand but at least it impoves the odds of them being clean.

The problem I see is any COT is impossible. One of the most powerfull moves in a WW game is use a conversion on someone who is trusted/ vouched for. The problem I see is someone can never be vouched for because they could have been converted at some time AFTER they were vouched for. I just don't see a way around this.

[hoopsguy]

Agree with your last post, Lathum. I think our best opportunity here is to catch someone with their hand in the cookie jar - either seer view or some type of action view/block. From there, we hope to get some kind of a beginning roadmap to follow. If we snag the initial guy and bring him back to the cult then we certainly get him and his Night 0 target.

[DaddyTorgo]

nah. i totally think this game can be won. and i intend to win it dammit.

[Tyrith]

There is an 18 day clock on the bad guys winning, because it's _uncleansed_ bad guys.

[hoopsguy]

Tyrith, the bad guys only need a majority on the uncleansed if I'm remembering the rules correctly. Which could happen a lot quicker than 18 days, even with a max of one conversion per day.

[Tyrith]

Mhm. But it's not an endless cycle of conversions and us trying to catch them at conversions. There will be a narrowing of the playing field like normal WW, it's just there will be more commentators left alive to discuss it.

[Lathum]

So can anyone see a way that someone can ever be trusted?

[SnDvls]

It's winnable, but we have to play our cards correctly and wisely to do it.

[Lathum]

So do you guys think I should put someone randomly to sleep tonight?

[Mustang]

So can anyone see a way that someone can ever be trusted?

Why wouldn't you trust someone that was cleansed? At that point, they wouldn't want the Shadow to win because, if they did, I'd assume they weren't cleansed really...

[path12]

Just checking in -- came to work to find a big issue that needs taking care of. I'll be around in awhile after I get that done.

[Lathum]

Why wouldn't you trust someone that was cleansed? At that point, they wouldn't want the Shadow to win because, if they did, I'd assume they weren't cleansed really...

can someone be re-converted after they were cleansed?

[Mustang]

can someone be re-converted after they were cleansed?

Didn't think of asking this.. just assumed but, if someone can be reconverted. Oy...

[KWhit]

So do you guys think I should put someone randomly to sleep tonight?

I don't know. I fear that you might accidently put an important person to sleep and we'd lose their ability for the night.

[Chief Rum]

So did anyone give any thought to my role/item classification idea? Seems like it was ignored. Do you all think that is a bad idea? Personally, with so much information in the mechanics of this game, I think we could really use something like that to wrap our heads around the tools and abilities we have available to us.

Speaking of bad ideas, mass-revealing == very bad, IMO. And the game Barkeep is referring to--he was a wolf. Not saying he is now, or advocating he should be considered suspicious for the suggestion; just noting it was a wolf who proposed that strategy in that game. I'm not too keen on strategies originally proposed by wolves, if you know what I mean.

I have one of the magical roles above, but no magic item. I also have a mundane role ability. Does everyone have one of those?

I will be leaving soon, so I am afraid I will have to vote early. It will be a random vote with pretty much no evidence behind it, of course.

[Chief Rum]

Peregrine, correct me if I am wrong. Shadow does not get the use of our magic roles, correct? When you convert to Shadow, you can't use your magical roles. I think I read that. Or taking it one step further, you are stripped of your magical roles when you join Shadow.

I would assume items can still be used, and mundane role abilities.

[Mustang]

I have one of the magical roles above, but no magic item. I also have a mundane role ability. Does everyone have one of those?

Subtle way to fish for information... ;)

[SnDvls]

Chief- I like the classification idea, just haven't been able to delve into the roles and items much, but I'll give it a shot for sure.

[DaddyTorgo]

chief...classification sounds good.

and i don't think barkeep's Shadow. Second-level analysis would suggest that Shadow would not be the one to initiate the idea of mass role-reveal, but would rather fall somewhere in the middle of the pack agreeing with it, so as not to draw attention.

[Chief Rum]

Subtle way to fish for information... ;)

Heh heh nothing sneaky here. I have a mundane role ability. Reading the mechanics, it seems likely to me there are other such mundane role abilities out there, likely some repeats, with everyone having one. The mechanics point out that cleansing doesn't remove these abilities.

Not asking for everyone to say what their mundane ability is, just noting is another aspect of the game we shouldn't ignore, and I think we should consider at least seeing if everyone has one of those, or if it's just a select few.

[DaddyTorgo]

Heh heh nothing sneaky here. I have a mundane role ability. Reading the mechanics, it seems likely to me there are other such mundane role abilities out there, likely some repeats, with everyone having one. The mechanics point out that cleansing doesn't remove these abilities.

Not asking for everyone to say what their mundane ability is, just noting is another aspect of the game we shouldn't ignore, and I think we should consider at least seeing if everyone has one of those, or if it's just a select few.


i think i know what you're talking about in terms of mundane roles that cleansing doesn't remove, and if so i know i clearly have them.

[Swaggs]

Hey guys, just checking in real quick.

I will be back in about 45 minutes to discuss for a bit, but it looks like I am going to have to vote fairly early if we are going with a 7:30 PM deadline.

[Chief Rum]

Note: This is a pointless vote with nothing behind it. I make it because I need to vote, and I have to leave for the day.

VOTE JOE

In a previous life, he was GWB. I voted for that guy twice, so I figure once more won't hurt. ;)

I have heard the reasoning for voting Punishment/Mercy, and agree we need Punishment. I am hesitant to vote Punishment when I am voting for someone I don't have any evidence against and essentially picked at random.

But I will, on the belief that you all will find candidates who may be deserving of Punishment, and that it will not be Joe (and if it is, I figure you will have a pretty good reason).

VOTE PUNISHMENT

[Tyrith]

chief...classification sounds good.

and i don't think barkeep's Shadow. Second-level analysis would suggest that Shadow would not be the one to initiate the idea of mass role-reveal, but would rather fall somewhere in the middle of the pack agreeing with it, so as not to draw attention.

I think at this point BK has pressed for the mass role reveal enough times that him calling for it is independent of his allegiance.

[DaddyTorgo]

I think at this point BK has pressed for the mass role reveal enough times that him calling for it is independent of his allegiance.

lol

[Lathum]

I think at this point BK has pressed for the mass role reveal enough times that him calling for it is independent of his allegiance.

I would agree with this, He is at the point where if he didn't call for it people would suspect him.

[Lathum]

OK, gotta get things rolling.

VOTE IMTHECREW

He was bad the last game and played the same way. Checked in and didn't say a word

[Lathum]

VOTE PUNISHMENT

[DaddyTorgo]

i think i'm pretty much taking off from now till 6pm or so. i have a job interview in an hour and a half, gonna grab lunch first, then after that i take the train home. if dinner is ready then i probably won't be on till right around deadline, so i will check in from my phone, on the train on the way home if nowhere else. but i figure it's going to be largely random D1 votes anyways.

[Swaggs]

Alright... I am caught up.

I think mass role reveal is not really beneficial yet. One, we are not dead if we are cleansed, so we can always call someone elses bluff if they claim the role we once had. Two, does it really help us out a shadow member on day 1, when no one has had the opportunity to execute a night action?

[Mr. Wednesday]

I'm in.

I would like to offer a correction to something Mustang said... there's a "sorceror" role, the Artificer, who we cannot trust even if cleansed.

I have a magic role, which (as per usual) I will reveal only when appropriate.

[ntndeacon]

can someone be re-converted after they were cleansed?
I was wondering the same thing.
But whether that would be a good strategy for the Shadow if each attempt causes the percentage of success in the next attempt to go down is an issue as well. they have to get more of the unconverted than we have.

[ntndeacon]

And to go ahead and vote....
Vote KWhit
Vote Mercy

Perhaps the mercy vote is misplaced, but I view today as a way to keep a potentially powerful weapon against Shadow around. As it is most likely we will strip one of us of thier powers.

[Swaggs]

I am going to go ahead and cast a vote here, since we need to get moving.

Vote Chief Rum

Vote Mercy

I am voting for him, mostly because I need to vote for someone, partly because I think his classification idea could be an attempt to lead the rest of us on an errand that will distract us without really providing us with any sound information.

I am voting to give him mercy, however, because I think the odds of hitting a useful role (since everyone presumably has a role) are much, much greater than hitting a member of the Shadow today.

I am curious to hear others' thoughts on mercy vs punishment on Day 1?

[Swaggs]

Dola, was posting my last post while ntn's vote went up. Obviously, I agree with his logic regarding the mercy vote.

[Peregrine]

So can anyone see a way that someone can ever be trusted?

Those who have been cleansed are in general very trustworthy, because the Shadow can't corrupt them again. Though there is a very small chance someone could "recover" from being cleansed. But in general, they're trustworthy.

[Joe]

I have a role listed above. I also have a mundane roll. I also think a mass reveal is bad. I also vote for barkeep.

[Peregrine]

Peregrine, correct me if I am wrong. Shadow does not get the use of our magic roles, correct? When you convert to Shadow, you can't use your magical roles. I think I read that. Or taking it one step further, you are stripped of your magical roles when you join Shadow.

I would assume items can still be used, and mundane role abilities.


That is correct. They lose the use of their magical roles, but can use any mundane roles or items.

[BrianD]

Voting for mercy on Day 1 seems like it could be alright. The shadow probably don't know each other so we won't learn anything from the voting history. Odds are we would cleanse a clean person so all we do is eliminate future help. I'm not sure what help punishment would be unless we happen to get very lucky and hit a bad guy.

[Peregrine]

I have a role listed above. I also have a mundane roll. I also think a mass reveal is bad. I also vote for barkeep.

Hey Joe, make sure to bold your votes, like

vote Barkeep49

[Alan T]

Vote Swaggs

Voting for anyone with the intent of giving them mercy anyhows without hearing more from them seems redundant and counter-productive.

When we have someone on the block, they by all means should give us a reason to not punish them, and at that time we can choose to give them mercy instead of punishment. (We do have time after the deciding vote for whom is voted for and we have to determine if we should punish them or give them mercy).

I don't really have a very strong feeling about Swaggs either way, just using this vote as my way of stating my objection to people who are throwing out mercy before someone has even been decided upong, as well as picking someone who has publically said they won't be here to defend themselves.

[Swaggs]

Vote Swaggs

Voting for anyone with the intent of giving them mercy anyhows without hearing more from them seems redundant and counter-productive.

When we have someone on the block, they by all means should give us a reason to not punish them, and at that time we can choose to give them mercy instead of punishment. (We do have time after the deciding vote for whom is voted for and we have to determine if we should punish them or give them mercy).

I don't really have a very strong feeling about Swaggs either way, just using this vote as my way of stating my objection to people who are throwing out mercy before someone has even been decided upong, as well as picking someone who has publically said they won't be here to defend themselves.

Realistically, how is anyone going to legitimately defend themselves and/or prove their role on day 1, Alan? I know I did not have an opportunity to have a night action on night 0, did you?

Everyone is going to say they have a valuable role that can help us win and that you are going to make a big mistake if you vote for me. What will make you believe me, if I say that, over someone else saying it?

[hoopsguy]

Some thoughts on the topics of discussion:

1. I do not have a mundane role ability, unless I suck at reading comprehension.
2. I plan on voting for Punishment unless given a reason to do otherwise. This stinks for the person with the Day 1 short straw, just like most Day 1 votes. But it is less harsh in this game than most. We have up to six good targets out there - Sun, Shadow, a sympathizer role, and another that will be more powerful for the enemy than he is for us. I'm none of these roles, so I believe I've got a 6/17 chance of hitting someone that I don't mind losing. Better odds than many games, especially when the penalty does not involve being lost for the duration of the game. And when a cleansed Shadow can potentially yield information on his peers or at the very least game mechanics we don't see. In short, I think Mercy is a poor play.

[Alan T]

Realistically, how is anyone going to legitimately defend themselves and/or prove their role on day 1, Alan? I know I did not have an opportunity to have a night action on night 0, did you?

Everyone is going to say they have a valuable role that can help us win and that you are going to make a big mistake if you vote for me. What will make you believe me, if I say that, over someone else saying it?

I think what Hoops said after your post is pretty close to how I feel on some things.

If you vote for mercy always, then you never will rid yourself of the shadow. If you vote punishment, you might end up stripping someone useful of their power, but also could remove the shadow influence from them.

Worst case is you target someone who is useful, they give you enough of a convincing of that and you can then give them mercy and buy more time to look at them a bit more in depth before stripping them of their powers. It is my belief that with the tools we have available, its even more benefitial for us than normal to go heavy at the punishment.

If you feel no one will ever be able to convince you they are good or bad, and thus will always vote mercy, you're not helping us at all.

[Tyrith]

I agree with the punishment vote. We have to start clearing people. Any major candidates should role reveal, but we can stand to do without a majority of these roles, to the point where I'm not going to let off the gas just for the sake of keeping them around.

If I am forced to choose between alternatives today I will vote for ITC.

[Swaggs]

I think what Hoops said after your post is pretty close to how I feel on some things.

If you vote for mercy always, then you never will rid yourself of the shadow. If you vote punishment, you might end up stripping someone useful of their power, but also could remove the shadow influence from them.

Worst case is you target someone who is useful, they give you enough of a convincing of that and you can then give them mercy and buy more time to look at them a bit more in depth before stripping them of their powers. It is my belief that with the tools we have available, its even more benefitial for us than normal to go heavy at the punishment.

If you feel no one will ever be able to convince you they are good or bad, and thus will always vote mercy, you're not helping us at all.

I guess I am not that far off from where you guys are, but I just feel like day 1 is a different animal here, as the Shadow do not know one another, so we cannot even hope to get any kind of pattern here AND, I feel like tomorrow I will be able to make a much better decision, after my night action.

[Alan T]

I guess I am not that far off from where you guys are, but I just feel like day 1 is a different animal here, as the Shadow do not know one another, so we cannot even hope to get any kind of pattern here AND, I feel like tomorrow I will be able to make a much better decision, after my night action.

I guess maybe I am mistaken and should go back and reread then. My understanding was the shadow brings more under its control through nightly conversions, and as time goes on you'll end up with more shadow who don't know each other as opposed to what you said. If there was any point during the entire game that all of the shadow know each other, I would assume it would be right now.

Maybe I just read that wrong though, and will go back to reread.

[SnDvls]

I guess I am not that far off from where you guys are, but I just feel like day 1 is a different animal here, as the Shadow do not know one another, so we cannot even hope to get any kind of pattern here AND, I feel like tomorrow I will be able to make a much better decision, after my night action.

The head shadow will know the other right now as they had a 100% chance to convert and they submitted the name.

[Alan T]

The Shadow

The Shadow starts with one player, and gains a second on Night 0. After that, each night they can try to gain more recruits. As a night action, each Shadow player chooses one player to try to convert, he focuses his shadow energies on him. As more are converted, the power of the shadow being is split among them. The first conversion had a 100% chance to succeed, when there are two players, each has 50%, when three, each has 33%, and so forth. The more the Shadow spirit is divided the harder it is for him to focus his energies for more conversions. Once the votes are sent to the GM I will total them up and start with the person receiving the most votes. Any total Shadow force that's 50% or more means an automatic conversion, IF the target player can be found and is not protected somehow. After that I will go down the list by percentage. It's possible no one will be converted in a given night, but there will never be more than one person converted.

Once a player has been converted by the Shadow, they can no longer use their original magical role. They can continue to use mundane roles if they wish.

The Shadow players will be able to communicate with all the other Shadow players, through a method I will reveal to them.

It's important to note that the Shadow players DO NOT know the identity of the other Shadow players. They can reveal themselves if they wish, but this will open them up to exposure if/when any of the other Shadows are cleansed. This also applies if they agree to vote for a certain person, but it might be worthwhile if they want to convert a key person. They will be able to communicate with each other, but anonymously.


Yeah, re-reading this, I think Swaggs you are either really off base or just giving faulty logic, as the longer the game goes, I think the less likely it is that all of the shadow players will know each other.

Some other things that caught my eye though..

I had originally assumed that the shadow's power is weakened the more its divided as in the number of players it controlled. Re-reading this though, it appears its only divided by the individual actions of those controlled by the shadow. If everyone controlled by the shadow puts in the same target for conversion, its still 100%. Also the rules indicate any time its 50% or more its an automatic conversion.. so we'll likely have conversions for a good bit of the game. They also have the ability to communicate even if anonymously with each other. I have to assume that a major topic of discussion there would be whom the conversion target would be.

The other thing that caught my interest is that once converted, the player will no longer be able to use their magical role, but would be able to use their mundane role still. I noticed earlier there were some discussions that someone started about who had mundane roles. Perhaps the early targets of the shadow would be those whom would bring additional powers with them to the shadow once converted. I'll go back and re-read to see who it was encouraging others to indicate if they had mundane powers or not. I think at this point, it would be wise to not say one way or another about that.

[Mustang]

I'm just going with one of the most quiet right now (actually 4 so just picking someone randomly) I have a feeling being very quiet in the game isn't going to help much and it absolutely sucked in the Rome game so, for now

Vote Joe

Vote Punishment

Will change depending on involvement on day 1...

[hoopsguy]

I'm going to throw out a pretty random vote, because I don't have much of a feel so far. Tyrith posted in defense of Barkeep's "role reveal" earlier, suggesting that he does this every game. While it is a fair statement, it also perked up my attention just a little bit. Is there any reason to defend Barkeep more or less than any other player? I know in the past I've put comments like this out as a wolf early in the game as an attempt to garner a small measure of trust later in the game.

It is damn thin. I guess the alternative is random.org or some past grudge, but I'll at least provide some state of mind information for my shot in the dark.

VOTE TYRITH/PUNISHMENT

[Alan T]

So did anyone give any thought to my role/item classification idea? Seems like it was ignored. Do you all think that is a bad idea? Personally, with so much information in the mechanics of this game, I think we could really use something like that to wrap our heads around the tools and abilities we have available to us.

Speaking of bad ideas, mass-revealing == very bad, IMO. And the game Barkeep is referring to--he was a wolf. Not saying he is now, or advocating he should be considered suspicious for the suggestion; just noting it was a wolf who proposed that strategy in that game. I'm not too keen on strategies originally proposed by wolves, if you know what I mean.

I have one of the magical roles above, but no magic item. I also have a mundane role ability. Does everyone have one of those?

I will be leaving soon, so I am afraid I will have to vote early. It will be a random vote with pretty much no evidence behind it, of course.

Subtle way to fish for information... ;)

Heh heh nothing sneaky here. I have a mundane role ability. Reading the mechanics, it seems likely to me there are other such mundane role abilities out there, likely some repeats, with everyone having one. The mechanics point out that cleansing doesn't remove these abilities.

Not asking for everyone to say what their mundane ability is, just noting is another aspect of the game we shouldn't ignore, and I think we should consider at least seeing if everyone has one of those, or if it's just a select few.

i think i know what you're talking about in terms of mundane roles that cleansing doesn't remove, and if so i know i clearly have them.

This was the discussion about mundane abilities that didn't really set off anything first path through. I'm wondering if the shadow would be so out open on trying to get that information, or just wait for someone more analytical to push that topic to the front. Mustang seemed to understand it was rather important right away though.

[Alan T]

Ok, I have a totally different question for those of you already looking to vote punishment.

My thought was we put our names up, and later today would know who the likely choice would end up being. It would give them time to state their case and at that time we could decide punishment or mercy. Like I said before, I likely would vote punishment unless given a good reason not to, however I still had that little wiggle room if someone ended up being chosen with a role that just seemed unlikely to be shadow right now and it wasn't worth the risk/reward of punishing them right away.

It seems that many people are voting punishment/mercy right away as part of their person vote so I'm wondering if:

A) People assume its all one vote incorrectly instead of the two votes it really is
B) People don't really care about what the defense will be and have their mind set to vote punishment or mercy regardless of who it is or what the person says

[Mr. Wednesday]

I suspect a lot of it is (B). At the moment, we as a group seem to feel there's less to lose by punishing than there is to gain by mercy. That's my reading of the way things are trending so far.

[Mr. Wednesday]

The head shadow will know the other right now as they had a 100% chance to convert and they submitted the name.
Peregrine noted upthread that this was done at random. I'd guess he originally was going to have the first shadow do as you said, and then decided for reasons of game mechanics that it was better to for the first shadow to not know who the first convert was.

[Alan T]

I suspect a lot of it is (B). At the moment, we as a group seem to feel there's less to lose by punishing than there is to gain by mercy. That's my reading of the way things are trending so far.

Well I guess the scenerio I bring up is:

What if the person who is up for punishment/mercy ends up coming out and saying "I'm the Medium, or I'm the Spiritualist" or something along those lines. It appears that all of the magical roles are from the list there, and some of them might be handier than others. I think if someone came out saying they were a role that might be pretty useful in our effort to clense people of the shadow, I might reconsider being merciful.

If someone chooses to not defend themselves, or end up with some expendable role, I still say I likely will choose to punish. I just know my mind hasn't been made up until people have had their chance to defend themselves.

[SnDvls]

Magical Items

There are a number of magical items scattered around the complex. This is most of, but not all, the magical items that can be potentially found. Note that some of the items can only be used at night, others only during the day, and some at either time.

Message me with any specific questions.


Potion of Weariness - A person who drinks this potion is unable to cast a vote in either vote the next day, but able to speak normally.

Potion of Alertness - A person who drinks this potion is active and alert through the night, and able to see what goes on in his room. This gives him a good chance to identify people that come in and what they are doing. Also, this potion makes even the magical sleep of the mercy option or other magical abilities impossible.

Potion of Sleep - This potion will put a person to sleep for the night, they will not be able to take a night action, and night actions on them are more successful.

Potion of Power - This potion is said to drastically increase magical power, temporarily. If it is drunk by someone who has been cleansed, it miraculously restores their powers and their former role (but not any former Shadow corruption.) If it is drunk by a normal person, it boosts their magical powers for the next day and night cycles after it is taken. This allows night actions to be much more effective and useful (even for the Shadow!) and also makes a person immune to cleansing during the next day cycle.

Potion of Masking - This potion is only effective when taken at night. It sheathes the drinker in a magical mask that allows him to shrug off all night actions aimed at them, including Shadow attempts.

Potion of Darkness - IMPORTANT! This potion used to be something useful but has been corrupted by the Shadow's arrival. When found, it will look like one of the other potions. When drunk, horrible things can happen, up to and including being corrupted by the Shadow. This potion is fortunately rare.

Scroll of Identity - This magical parchment can be read one time, to magically learn the role of one player. This will reveal both magical and mundane roles, but not whether a person is corrupted or not. Note that in the case of the Sun spies, this will reveal their TRUE role.


Ring of Shadows - This ancient ring grants the power of invisibility by drawing shadows to the user. It can be used on two different nights to protect the player from harm. Also, if desired it can be used once (and destroyed) to use a night action to search out the shadow beings and find one of them.

Mask of Whispers - This is a small mask that can be put over the lower part of the face. It allows the wearer to once each day send one short (two lines or less) PM message to someone, and get a short message in reply. Must run through the GM, you can identify yourself or not.

Triune Pyramid - A small golden pyramid which if possessed, makes the bearer immune to other magical effects, including items, being corrupted by shadow, and even being cleansed. However, there is an increasing chance it will shatter if exposed to a lot of magical stress.

Ritual Dagger - This long dagger is made of gleaming silver and is used in certain darker rituals. It has been tied into the magical abilities of everyone in the coven, and so can be used to find a specifed person even if they are hiding or using another magical ability to hide themselves. The dagger can be used as a free night action.

Seal of Command - This seal of enchanted black wax boosts the user's command capabilities, people listen to him or her. It can be used to break a tie in either the name or the punishment vote. Contact the GM by 8:00 PM EST with who you choose.

Ring of Wisdom - This Ring allows the user to cast one secret vote each day. The vote is a name vote only, not a punishment vote. The vote must be sent to the GM before the deadline and will be announced immediately. It cannot be changed. Once the vote is cast the GM will announce "The Ring of Wisdom casts a vote for XYZ!"




in order to make it easier to read and reference I broke the Magical Items into one post and roles in another.

RED=More benefit to bad
BLUE=More benefit to good
GREEN=Could benefit either

these are my opinions and I welcome comments.

[SnDvls]

Peregrine noted upthread that this was done at random. I'd guess he originally was going to have the first shadow do as you said, and then decided for reasons of game mechanics that it was better to for the first shadow to not know who the first convert was.

ahh thank you I must have missed that while rereading the rules I printed out for my good/bad/neutral thing I just posted.

[hoopsguy]

Alan, my vote on Punishment at this point is because I do not know if I'll be available at deadline or in the thirty minute window following. Which leaves me with the option of putting in P/M vote along with person now or risking that I won't be able to get it in at all.

I'm hoping that others have more consistent deadline availability than I will this game to move the vote towards Mercy if it is needed. And I'm certain willing to move it in the event that I'm around at deadline - will likely depend on traffic most days.

[Mustang]

Mustang seemed to understand it was rather important right away though.

I would think those abilities would be pretty important. I'd imagine they could range from anything from ability to find items easier (scrounging ability), ability to steal easier (thief) or maybe some magic items are just flat out stronger for some people. I wouldn't want to share any ability right now even if I had one. Imagine if there was a thief ability (+X% chance to steal). I'm sure the Shadow would like that ability on their side....

[path12]

OK, just had a chance to read through the thread. Random thoughts:

I agree with Tyrith re: Barkeeps mass reveal post. He has been very consistent in his stance on this issue, and I don't think that it carries any special significance that he did it again this game. Besides, as usual it looks like the vast majority disagree with him anyway (as I also do in this particular instance).

I have a listed role and a mundane role. I do not plan on sharing them unless absolutely necessary, for I think it is far better for the cultists that way.

I have to go back through some of the roles, but have noted a couple hints by some people regarding theirs that will effectively leave them off of my voting list for today.

I understand hoops and Alan's thoughts regarding punishment/mercy, but I lean towards the mercy approach. I am thinking that the communication between shadow members will be limited rather than unlimited, weakening the power of communication that the bad guys usually have. Maybe a broadcast message each day by the head shadow or something along those lines.

It seems that the only way that the shadows could know each other short of reveals is via the conversion process. Since it is explicitly stated in the rules that the shadows do not know each other, I think it likely that the random conversion is unknown to the starting shadow player. To take that a step further, they would not know the future conversions either -- say if there are three shadows and they each name a separate person to try and convert, I would assume that there would be no notification of who's order went through -- and possibly not even if it did go through or not.

This is all just speculation, but it has me thinking that mercy is not a bad option for tonight while we give our helpful roles a chance to do their stuff.

As for a vote, I'll hold off for now. I would lean towards anyone who hasn't checked in around deadline.

[path12]

Peregrine noted upthread that this was done at random. I'd guess he originally was going to have the first shadow do as you said, and then decided for reasons of game mechanics that it was better to for the first shadow to not know who the first convert was.

I think you phrased this better than I did. I agree.

[DaddyTorgo]

thanks for doing with the items sndvls.

I have no real read on who to vote for yet. I don't think I will have a really informed vote though, being D1 and all.

[ntndeacon]

The head shadow will know the other right now as they had a 100% chance to convert and they submitted the name.

I do not believe that is true. didn't Peregrine say that the second part of Shadow was done randomly?

[Mr. Wednesday]

ahh thank you I must have missed that while rereading the rules I printed out for my good/bad/neutral thing I just posted.

It was in conversation, I don't think the rules reflect it.

[path12]

I'm not going to wait for my vote after all.

VOTE SCHMIDTY

We need participation in this game.

[Lathum]

Well I guess the scenerio I bring up is:

What if the person who is up for punishment/mercy ends up coming out and saying "I'm the Medium, or I'm the Spiritualist" or something along those lines. It appears that all of the magical roles are from the list there, and some of them might be handier than others. I think if someone came out saying they were a role that might be pretty useful in our effort to clense people of the shadow, I might reconsider being merciful.

If someone chooses to not defend themselves, or end up with some expendable role, I still say I likely will choose to punish. I just know my mind hasn't been made up until people have had their chance to defend themselves.

IMO the medium can cause more harm then good at times. Not only do the rules state you may not learn anything, who is to say the person who came up clean today doesn't get converted tomorrow?

[path12]

IMO the medium can cause more harm then good at times. Not only do the rules state you may not learn anything, who is to say the person who came up clean today doesn't get converted tomorrow?

Didn't Peregrine just say upthread that a cleansed person is very hard to reconvert? Or that there is just one or two roles that can even be reconverted (which we would find out at the original cleansing, wouldn't we?)

[Alan T]

IMO the medium can cause more harm then good at times. Not only do the rules state you may not learn anything, who is to say the person who came up clean today doesn't get converted tomorrow?

I just went down the list of roles and listed the first 2-3 roles that seemed benefitial to us. I'd have to think about that more, but just on the quick read of what a medium can do there, I think it would be better having them around than not having them. It at least seems more benefitial than my role. Sure with conversions, you always have to put a grain of salt in how far you trust someone...

You're not new to games though Lathum, you know we often have lists of people who were ok up to game day #X, and work on CoTs off of that at some point. For instance on game day 3, you couldn't say someone scanned as not being of the shadow on night 1 is still good, but you could say they wern't one of the original 2 shadows due to that scan. Which means in an attempt to find the original two shadows, they are not involved in that equation and help narrow down your choices.

Since people do not die in this game, this type of information might be pretty useful especially later in the game.

[KWhit]

Vote ImTheCrew

Vote Punish


I'm voting ITC because of inactivity - just nothing else to go on at this point. I am voting punish now because I might not be back until after 8:00. I hope that I am and can read through the thread and reassess, but can't be certain of that.

[path12]

Those who have been cleansed are in general very trustworthy, because the Shadow can't corrupt them again. Though there is a very small chance someone could "recover" from being cleansed. But in general, they're trustworthy.

That's the one I was referring to.

[Alan T]

Didn't Peregrine just say upthread that a cleansed person is very hard to reconvert? Or that there is just one or two roles that can even be reconverted (which we would find out at the original cleansing, wouldn't we?)

I don't think Lathum meant someone who was cleansed due to the punishment vote. I think he was referring to someone who came up "clean" to a medium's scan. I agree with his point that a medium can't tell you who currently is affected by the shadow, but I think the information on who wasn't at a certain time is more useful than no information at all.

[path12]

I don't think Lathum meant someone who was cleansed due to the punishment vote. I think he was referring to someone who came up "clean" to a medium's scan. I agree with his point that a medium can't tell you who currently is affected by the shadow, but I think the information on who wasn't at a certain time is more useful than no information at all.

Oh, OK. I still need to read the roles in more detail. I just focused on my own.

[Tyrith]

VOTE ITC
VOTE PUNISH

Encourage participation, soul cleanse UTRs!

[Lathum]

I don't think Lathum meant someone who was cleansed due to the punishment vote. I think he was referring to someone who came up "clean" to a medium's scan. I agree with his point that a medium can't tell you who currently is affected by the shadow, but I think the information on who wasn't at a certain time is more useful than no information at all.

thats exactly what I meant. My concern is that people may put to much stock in a scan and that could cloud judgement.

[path12]

Can the Sun spies be converted? If so, does that rob them of whatever ability it is that they have?

[Mr. Wednesday]

If by converted, you mean converted to the Shadow, I can see no reason why they shouldn't be. Also, since any spy abilities seem to be mundane in character, I'd guess they would retain those.

[SnDvls]

It was in conversation, I don't think the rules reflect it.

Correct...I was reading from the rules when that was posted and put in my response...it was futher clarified and correct in the thread.

[SnDvls]

thanks for doing with the items sndvls.

I have no real read on who to vote for yet. I don't think I will have a really informed vote though, being D1 and all.

I'll give a more detailed break down of my opinion later on tonight.

Also I'm almost done w/ roles and will do the same there as some that are green actually sway one way or the other as the game goes forward.

[SnDvls]

Peregrine - you mention in the rules that if converted to a shadow a player loses their magical role/powers. Would this also effect them if they had created something as well they would lose it too? This goes into my analysis of the roles which is why I ask.

[Tyrith]

I'm going to throw out a pretty random vote, because I don't have much of a feel so far. Tyrith posted in defense of Barkeep's "role reveal" earlier, suggesting that he does this every game. While it is a fair statement, it also perked up my attention just a little bit. Is there any reason to defend Barkeep more or less than any other player? I know in the past I've put comments like this out as a wolf early in the game as an attempt to garner a small measure of trust later in the game.

It is damn thin. I guess the alternative is random.org or some past grudge, but I'll at least provide some state of mind information for my shot in the dark.

VOTE TYRITH/PUNISHMENT

Absolute shadiest reason I've ever seen you use. To call what I did a defense is practically an out and out lie by itself :P

[Mr. Wednesday]

Non-official opinion, I'd think they'd retain any magical items they had created, but would lose the ability to create any more.

[DaddyTorgo]

I hate D1-voting. Whether i'm a villager or a wolf I always agonize over it way too much.

[SnDvls]

Non-official opinion, I'd think they'd retain any magical items they had created, but would lose the ability to create any more.

then that will sway the roles some to more bad than good again depending on where we are in the game.

[DaddyTorgo]

Absolute shadiest reason I've ever seen you use. To call what I did a defense is practically an out and out lie by itself :P

I gotta agree with tyrith on this one hoops. To me it just seemed like he was takin a jab, makin a joke.

[hoopsguy]

Absolute shadiest reason I've ever seen you use. To call what I did a defense is practically an out and out lie by itself :P

Sure, but I also worry about the trend for voting for Schmidty or ITC or other low posters as default behavior on Day 1. Over time, it becomes the built-in excuse for voting in a certain direction. And while I may or may not agree with the sentiment in a meta-game context, I don't enjoy having to sift through its usage in a given game when determining how much I trust someone.

Or, to be more brief, I'm not going to vote for a quiet guy by default this game. They are going to be around, cleansed or uncleansed, the rest of the way. So this seems like a good game to go against that trend and just play a hunch.

[SnDvls]

Magical Roles

Each player will be assigned one of these roles. If you would like you can try to do a role revealing strategy, but note that some of these roles are going to be particular Shadow targets.

Signifier - The player has the powerful magic ability to once each day (as a day action) indicate one statement and learn whether it is true or false. Note that this is not intended to allow coerced situations where everyone is forced to say "I am good!" Such situations muddle the truth and the ability will be wasted.

Warlock - This role allows you to cast a powerful hex on another player, three times per game. This must be done as a night action, you choose another player and they sleep soundly, unable to perform any night actions.

Medium - As a night action you can see through someone else's eyes. What you see might reveal their role, or might reveal nothing.

Artificer - You were the first to study the artifact, and a trickle of shadow energy made its way to you, despite the seals. It has been working through you enough that you believe embracing it would be the ultimate source of power. Each night you can make an action to study one player and determine if they have been embraced by the Shadow or not. You want to protect them, and hope to become one in time. Also, if you are cleansed, you are still loyal to the evil side, and don't have to confess their names.

Alchemist - During the course of the game, you can make three potions, either of Weariness, Alertness, Masking, or Sleep. You can only have one potion at a time - ie, you have to use the first one before you can make the second one. You can't make the same potion more than once.

Diabolist - You specialize in the summoning of demons, a dark and risky magic that is even shunned by most members of the cult. Three times during the game, as a night action, he can choose a player and find out what magical role that player has. He will not learn if a player if affected by the Shadow this way.

Ritualist - You can draw sorcerous circles that can keep magical powers out, or in. Three times per game you can choose to draw a barrier which will protect one room from any outside actions or influences. Players can take actions inside the protected room but they have a higher chance of being noticed. The circles will be drawn as a day action, so message the GM before the deadline if you want to do this, and which room you want to protect.

Spiritmaster - You have expertise in speaking with spirits and the dead. Twice per game you can summon up spirits that will protect the room you're in, guarding against any intrusion at night.

Researcher - You have the ability to identify magical items and have learned much about them. Each night you can pick a magic item from the list and try to find out where it is currently located, if successful you will learn which room it is in or who has it. You can also identify if a potion is a Potion of Darkness.

Sorceror - You care about nothing except magical power. You have quite a lot of it now, and if you were corrupted by the shadow, you're pretty sure you'd have even more. You are immune to magical sleep of any kind.

Summoner - You have a small imp as your creation, that can act independently and follow your orders. Each night you can give it a simple order - "Follow so and so" "Guard me and make sure nothing happens" "Steal an item from Player X." Your pet is not completely reliable, however, and there is a 25% each night that it will not follow your orders.

Augur - You have the power to follow magical trails through the ether. In this case, you can attempt each night to track the shadow (or Sun) energies. If you do so, you have a 50% chance of seeing either where the energy starts or where it finishes, a 25% chance of not seeing anything, and a 25% chance of having the energy focus on you instead!

Theurgist - You can focus a magical field which will block other forms of magic from taking place. Each night you may specify a person, and they will not be able to use any magical abilities. You can't choose the same person more than two nights in a row. Note that this does not give you any knowledge of what their abilities are.

Witch - You have the power to work through people's dreams. Each night you can take a night action to send someone a message through their dreams. The message is necessarily vague and will not always be sent accurately. Alternately, you can use the same action to study someone's dreams. You have to be near them to do this (in the same room) but if you are successful you may learn something about them, including their role and possibly their past actions.

Wizard - Despite being in the coven, you've grown increasingly worried about things here, because you're basically a good person and want to get out. Each night as a night action you can check someone to see if they are a member of the Sun faction. You also have a Sun Amulet which gives you a powerful ability - you can't be corrupted by the Shadow.

Enchanter - You command the power of the enchantments that run through the very walls of the complex. Each night you can specify one room, and you will be notified if any major magical powers are used there (this includes Shadow corruption but also some of the other roles.) You will have a smaller chance to find out who used them.

Craft Mage - You have the ability to build and unbuild magical items. It takes time to build a magical item, but over three night actions, you can make any of the non-potion items on the list. Also, if you choose, you can destroy a magical item. To do this, you have to know the item and who has it.

Elementalist - You have the power to command rock and stone, and can move through them from room to room without being seen. This will also allow you to escape from a magical circle created by the Ritualist.


same rules apply

RED=Bad
BLUE=Good
GREEN=Either

again this is based on not knowing more about the role itself as some could actually move from GREEN to BLUE based on more info being knows I guess.

The ones that jump out at me as more valuable to the Shadow later in the game depending on what that person does with their role are the Craft Mage, Alchemist & Researcher.

[hoopsguy]

Also, I'm not sure "shady" is the correct word. I conceded that the reasoning is marginal, but there are no ulterior motives here that would cause this to drift towards shady.

[Alan T]

Sndvls, the thing about the roles list thats different from the items list is that most of the roles won't benefit the shadow players if I understand correctly. In the rules it states once someone is converted by the shadow, they lose their magical ability (ie: this list).

Obviously the Artificer seems to stand out like a sore thumb, and I have no idea whats meant in the Sorceror role, but the rules clearly state you lose the magical roles if converted to the shadow. The only thing I could think of that would matter is I believe there was an item that helped restore one's magical role if it was lost. My initial assumption on that was based on being cleansed, but I guess perhaps the same could be said if they lost their role due to being converted.

So to me when looking at the list of blues and greens, its not a matter of how useful it is to the good vs bad team as its how useful it is for the good guys vs how important for the bad guys to remove it from the game. (If you follow my logic here).

Or am I understanding the rules incorrectly, it just seems to me that most or all of the magical roles will be unavailable to the players converted by the shadow, so your list's perspective is missing that key point.

[SnDvls]

I have to leave and won't be back in time for lynch, might be in time for the second part so.

Vote Barkeep
don't like the idea of a mass reveal given what I've look at for roles, but feel he might have just been misguided so Vote Mercy

[SnDvls]

Sndvls, the thing about the roles list thats different from the items list is that most of the roles won't benefit the shadow players if I understand correctly. In the rules it states once someone is converted by the shadow, they lose their magical ability (ie: this list).

Obviously the Artificer seems to stand out like a sore thumb, and I have no idea whats meant in the Sorceror role, but the rules clearly state you lose the magical roles if converted to the shadow. The only thing I could think of that would matter is I believe there was an item that helped restore one's magical role if it was lost. My initial assumption on that was based on being cleansed, but I guess perhaps the same could be said if they lost their role due to being converted.

So to me when looking at the list of blues and greens, its not a matter of how useful it is to the good vs bad team as its how useful it is for the good guys vs how important for the bad guys to remove it from the game. (If you follow my logic here).

Or am I understanding the rules incorrectly, it just seems to me that most or all of the magical roles will be unavailable to the players converted by the shadow, so your list's perspective is missing that key point.


if some roles get to keep what was already done as a cultest when converted then yes almost all the green will move to blue except the three I noted. If not then all the green move to blue. I'm hoping we'll get a clarification on this to help us.

[ntndeacon]

Some thoughts on the topics of discussion:

1. I do not have a mundane role ability, unless I suck at reading comprehension.
2. I plan on voting for Punishment unless given a reason to do otherwise. This stinks for the person with the Day 1 short straw, just like most Day 1 votes. But it is less harsh in this game than most. We have up to six good targets out there - Sun, Shadow, a sympathizer role, and another that will be more powerful for the enemy than he is for us. I'm none of these roles, so I believe I've got a 6/17 chance of hitting someone that I don't mind losing. Better odds than many games, especially when the penalty does not involve being lost for the duration of the game. And when a cleansed Shadow can potentially yield information on his peers or at the very least game mechanics we don't see. In short, I think Mercy is a poor play.

Why do we care what the Sun does? Their win actually helps us cultists if I read the rules correctly. It bothers me that you want to get rid of the Sun actually. Gives me some focus to day 1.

UnVote KWhit
Vote Hoops

[Mr. Wednesday]

Or, to be more brief, I'm not going to vote for a quiet guy by default this game. They are going to be around, cleansed or uncleansed, the rest of the way. So this seems like a good game to go against that trend and just play a hunch.

The point that they're going to be around the rest of the way either way is an excellent one. I'm not sure that we can draw any conclusions about whether a quiet person is more or less likely to be one of the corrupted, but the usual incentive for voting for them early (removing the clutter from the game) is completely absent here.

[Barkeep49]

I think at this point BK has pressed for the mass role reveal enough times that him calling for it is independent of his allegiance.

I would agree with this, He is at the point where if he didn't call for it people would suspect him.

I'm only on post 100, but I would like to point out that in Alan's last game where I started off good (and was converted to bad) I did not call for mass reveals. My reasoning for mass reveals are, as always, a way to build a COT. More on this, likely, when I'm all caught up.

[Schmidty]

I'm finally awake and here. Catching up, and will hustle to get a vote in by the deadline.

[Joe]

if you voted for me, stop it.

thank you.

[Barkeep49]

Thoughts for the day:

*I'm going to have to start a thread after this game to discuss this whole mass reveal thing, because I really think the villagers err in their failure to do this every game where such an option is available. I'll point out that villagers have a handy way of undermining villager efforts that would out wolves. Just look at how the wolves were all able to skate by, due to villager undermining, after CR introduced his very sound bid strategy.

*I think Hoops was way too inclusive with his 6/17 analysis

*Without role reveals I can't, at this time, voting for mercy. I think preventing someone from using their powers for one day simply do not justify the potential good of finding a bad guy. I will, however, reconsider on a case by case basis where there have been role reveals, real or otherwise.

*I think the insight that quiet players are around for the whole game is very astute and am torn. On the one hand, I love the idea hoops presented of why going away from the vote quiet on D1 makes sense for this game. On the other hand, I think they screw us over more than normal since we're going to have so many posts to go through and they'll have no record compared to active players. Having some reasonable understanding that they're good seems like more of an incentive to vote for them than normal.

Anyone have a vote count? Seems like it's time to start coalesicing around people. I seem to be one of those people, which is a shame, but the price I pay for trying to introduce an idea that would do more good than harm for the whole, but is risky to an individual.

[Tyrith]

I'd rather clear the quiet players now, when we have nothing to really go on, and then let them sit there if they're going to be quiet, then have to try to find them out later, when their quietness will mean there will be less of a trail to find them.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Barkeep, while I generally agree with you on the mass reveal thing, I don't see how mass reveals here are going to do anything to show anybody beyond possibly the original Shadow. The way the mechanic is laid out, I think it's highly likely that the second shadow started out with a role, and so would be able to reveal confidently.

Would the value of possibly outing the Artificer or the Sorceror be enough to offset the negative of outing the truly useful roles?

[Mr. Wednesday]

Dola, actually, I don't think I generally agree on the mass reveal thing. I think in some instances it's worthwhile, and in others it's not, and it always depends on the value of the information revealed to the villagers vs. to the wolves.

[DaddyTorgo]

dinner and I won't be back in time to get a vote in

VOTE KWHIT

[Alan T]

dinner and I won't be back in time to get a vote in

VOTE KWHIT


You have to also vote for mercy or punishment too.

[Barkeep49]

Barkeep, while I generally agree with you on the mass reveal thing, I don't see how mass reveals here are going to do anything to show anybody beyond possibly the original Shadow. The way the mechanic is laid out, I think it's highly likely that the second shadow started out with a role, and so would be able to reveal confidently.

Would the value of possibly outing the Artificer or the Sorceror be enough to offset the negative of outing the truly useful roles?
Fair enough. I can respect this POV.

[Joe]

vote mercy

[BrianD]

I'm really sad St. Cronin isn't in this game. He always make a good default Day 1 vote for me.

This game is interesting in that the quiet players will be around for the whole game. It almost seems like being cleansed is the best way to get into a COT. Those guys will lose their abilities, but they will still be a nice batch of "normal" villagers.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I guess one thing we might want to think about up-front is, are there any particular roles we have a particular interest in protecting (so that if they were on the block, we would go mercy rather than cleanse)? Any roles that are subject to cleansing immediately?

[Mr. Wednesday]

I'm going to start with my punishment vote. I don't see that we gain a whole lot by mercy, unless we find that we have a role we can't do without on the block.

VOTE PUNISHMENT

[Alan T]

As of post #175, Imthecrew will be voted for with 3 votes and Chief Rum, Lathum, Mustang, Hoopsguy, Kwhit, TYrith all have chosen to punish him. Its pretty close right now with 20 min left, so I would highly suggest if Imthecrew wishes to not be cleansed he give others a reason to not cleanse him.



(3) Imthecrew - Lathum (96), Kwhit (139), Tyrith (143)
(2) Joe - Chief Rum (92), Mustang (119)
(2) Barkeep - Joe (106), Sndvls (159)
(1) Hoopsguy - Ntndeacon (161)
(1) Chief Rum - Swaggs (103)
(1) Swaggs - Alan (110)
(1) Tyrith - Hoopsguy (120)
(1) Schmidty - Path (135)
(1) Kwhit - DaddyTorgo (170)

(6) Punishment - Chief Rum, Lathum, Mustang, Hoopsguy, Kwhit, TYrith
(4) Mercy - Ntndeacon, Swaggs, Sndvls, Joe


No votes:


2) BrianD
6) Barkeep49
10) Schmidty
11) Mr. Wednesday
14) ImTheCrew

[Mr. Wednesday]

I'm a little up in the air about who I would want to vote for, though... anybody want to volunteer? :D

[Mr. Wednesday]

VOTE CHIEF RUM

It's day 1, so obviously I don't have a reason.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Hmm... I may rethink that, with the option to switch punishment, it may not be a great idea to vote for someone who's not here in the rethinking interval.

[Barkeep49]

(3) Imthecrew - Lathum (96), Kwhit (139), Tyrith (143)
(2) Joe - Chief Rum (92), Mustang (119)
(2) Barkeep - Joe (106), Sndvls (159)
(1) Hoopsguy - Ntndeacon (161)
(1) Chief Rum - Swaggs (103)
(1) Swaggs - Alan (110)
(1) Tyrith - Hoopsguy (120)
(1) Schmidty - Path (135)
(1) Kwhit - DaddyTorgo (170)


Redone with colors of mercy/punishment incorporated.

[Barkeep49]

Ok I now have 3 people I could reasonably vote for:
CR, Joe, and ITC

I'm disinclined to vote for CR since I think he's the best villager around. That means I'm left to decide between Joe and and ITC. Since Joe has voted for me I think that's enough to win my my vote.

Therefore I'm going to

Vote Joe with Punishment

[BrianD]

Vote Hoopsguy

I'm not sure why, something just didn't feel right with him.

[Tyrith]

I'm disinclined to vote for CR since I think he's the best villager around.


If he's the best villager around wouldn't you almost want to vote for him, get him cleared even at the cost of his role, and put him to work?

[path12]

I've got to run and since ITC hasn't said anything one way or the other after getting votes I'll go that way.

UNVOTE SCHMIDTY
VOTE ITC

VOTE PUNISHMENT

The arguments for punishment swayed me.

[Alan T]

Barkeep just tied up the vote. We have a little more then 10 min left, what do people think are pros/cons of a tie in this game? It says it will be resolved in some magical manner, and if none is available there will be no punishment.

THe last part of that gives me enough reason to stick with my standard feeling on ties. If a tie likely will end in no lynch, then they are bad bad bad. If forced, I will move my vote to untie it. I am curious to why Barkeep chose to tie it there though even if it could mean in no lynch. That usually isn't a very good thing.

[Joe]

time to change my vote

unvote barkeep

vote imthecrew

[Barkeep49]

Through 185:

(4) Imthecrew - Lathum (96), Kwhit (139), Tyrith (143), Path (185)
(3) Joe - Chief Rum (92), Mustang (119), Barkeep(182)
(2) Barkeep - Joe (106), Sndvls (159)
(2) Hoopsguy - Ntndeacon (161), BrianD (183)
(2) Chief Rum - Swaggs (103), Mr.Wednesday (180)
(1) Swaggs - Alan (110)
(1) Tyrith - Hoopsguy (120)
(1) Kwhit - DaddyTorgo (170)

[Mr. Wednesday]

Alan, I think path just untied it.

[Joe]

I guess one thing we might want to think about up-front is, are there any particular roles we have a particular interest in protecting (so that if they were on the block, we would go mercy rather than cleanse)? Any roles that are subject to cleansing immediately?

I'm going to say yes

[Mr. Wednesday]

Dola, and Joe really untied it. :)

[Alan T]

Alan, I think path just untied it.

Yeah, he posted at the same time as me. Its now:



(5) Imthecrew - Lathum (96), Kwhit (139), Tyrith (143), Path12 (185), Joe (187)
(3) Joe - Chief Rum (92), Mustang (119), Barkeep (182)
(2) Hoopsguy - Ntndeacon (161), BrianD (183)
(2) Chief Rum - Swaggs (103), Mr.Wednesday (179)
(1) Barkeep - Sndvls (159)
(1) Swaggs - Alan (110)
(1) Tyrith - Hoopsguy (120)
(1) Kwhit - DaddyTorgo (170)

(9) Punishment - Chief Rum, Lathum, Mustang, Hoopsguy, Kwhit, TYrith, Mr.Wednesday, Barkeep, Path12
(4) Mercy - Ntndeacon, Swaggs, Sndvls, Joe


No votes:


10) Schmidty
14) ImTheCrew

[Barkeep49]

Barkeep just tied up the vote. We have a little more then 10 min left, what do people think are pros/cons of a tie in this game? It says it will be resolved in some magical manner, and if none is available there will be no punishment.

THe last part of that gives me enough reason to stick with my standard feeling on ties. If a tie likely will end in no lynch, then they are bad bad bad. If forced, I will move my vote to untie it. I am curious to why Barkeep chose to tie it there though even if it could mean in no lynch. That usually isn't a very good thing.
I'm sad to be called on it, but surprised you didn't figure out the rationale:

I don't actually believe that there is no mechanism for resolving ties. Therefore, I feel a tie would have given us a defacto role reveal. More public information = good thing for the villagers.

[Alan T]

I'm sad to be called on it, but surprised you didn't figure out the rationale:

I don't actually believe that there is no mechanism for resolving ties. Therefore, I feel a tie would have given us a defacto role reveal. More public information = good thing for the villagers.

Thats a pretty risky thing to wage an entire's day lynch on. How do you know if there is such a thing, that it is not at the hands of Imthecrew himself? Or someone who already is gone for the day and won't use it. Or someone who can't use it until some item is found or created for them which hasn't happened yet, or etc etc etc.

[Barkeep49]

Thats a pretty risky thing to wage an entire's day lynch on. How do you know if there is such a thing, that it is not at the hands of Imthecrew himself? Or someone who already is gone for the day and won't use it. Or someone who can't use it until some item is found or created for them which hasn't happened yet, or etc etc etc.
I don't. But then again I would also point out that the tie was easily broken, and then double broken, since I've cast my vote.

[Barkeep49]

Thats a pretty risky thing to wage an entire's day lynch on. How do you know if there is such a thing, that it is not at the hands of Imthecrew himself? Or someone who already is gone for the day and won't use it. Or someone who can't use it until some item is found or created for them which hasn't happened yet, or etc etc etc.
I would also suggest that these out comes are less likely than having the tie breaking be part of a player's role.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Since I put the roles out there, my thoughts are...

On the bad side:
Artificer - probably should be cleansed, more to deny him to the shadow than for what he can do on his own
Sorceror - probably should be cleansed, out of concern over whether he gets more power if corrupted

On the good side:
Signifier - probably worth saving
Enchanter - probably worth saving

The Augur's seer abilities would be extremely useful, but the relatively high risk of rebound of Shadow energy means that I'm not putting them on the automatic keep list.

I don't think any of the other magical roles have enough usefulness to either side to be worth saving or cleansing.

[Alan T]

I would also suggest that these out comes are less likely than having the tie breaking be part of a player's role.

Which often times is the case is based on whom they voted on themselves. Considering only 8 of the 18 players (less than 50%) are actually involved in today's tiebreaker right now, and even less at the time of the tie, that once again is a pretty big reach.

I'm finding it odd that you are so defensive over a very common discussion/topic.

[Barkeep49]

Which often times is the case is based on whom they voted on themselves. Considering only 8 of the 18 players (less than 50%) are actually involved in today's tiebreaker right now, and even less at the time of the tie, that once again is a pretty big reach.

I'm finding it odd that you are so defensive over a very common discussion/topic.
I find it odd that you thought I was defensive.

[DaddyTorgo]

I knew i'd be back in time for the punishment/ mercy deadline though alan. Just knew it'd be tight with the vote deadline

[Alan T]

I find it odd that you thought I was defensive.

I find it odd that you found me odd!

[Alan T]

dola looks like Imthecrew is the selection of the masses. He hasn't done or said anything to make me feel he shouldn't be punished. Unless that changes soon, that will be what I vote as well

[Mr. Wednesday]

I've seen the tiebreaker be all over the place. I wouldn't want to guess at what Peregrine's doing with it.

[DaddyTorgo]

VOTE PUNISHMENT FOR KWIT

just for the record, although he's not even on the block at this point.


oh yay...barkeep+alan fireworks

[Peregrine]

Peregrine - you mention in the rules that if converted to a shadow a player loses their magical role/powers. Would this also effect them if they had created something as well they would lose it too? This goes into my analysis of the roles which is why I ask.

Do you mean like if they created a magical item?

[Barkeep49]

Ok here's a rule question I'm not completely clear on:

Does my punishment vote on Joe hold over to ITC or do only the ITC voters matter?

[Alan T]

VOTE PUNISHMENT FOR KWIT

just for the record, although he's not even on the block at this point.


oh yay...barkeep+alan fireworks

Ok here's a rule question I'm not completely clear on:

Does my punishment vote on Joe hold over to ITC or do only the ITC voters matter?


I brought this up earlier. They are two seperate votes. Daddy just voted punishment for Imthecrew, not Kwhit. You voted punishment for Imthecrew and not Joe.

[Alan T]

Dola to clarify..

you vote a particular person

AND

you vote for punishment or mercy of the person who is selected.

I mentioned this earlier when people were voting punishment early in the day. They dont even know who will be up for punishment yet they had their minds decided.

[Peregrine]

This is in the rules but just to clarify, a punishment vote is separate from the name vote and will apply to WHOEVER gets the most name vote.

[Alan T]

Voting

Each day all players can vote publicly for whoever they want, and can change their votes as many times as they want. This is called the name vote. They also must vote publicly whether they want to punish the person who receives the most votes, or show mercy. This is a separate vote, called the punishment vote, and will apply to whoever gets the most votes! All name votes must be received by 7:30 pm EST, however, there is a small grace period until 8 pm EST, where anyone can change their punishment votes ONLY. This will allow players to make an informed decision knowing who the victim will be. If you won't be around for that time of day, make sure to get your punishment vote in before then!

Ties in the name vote can be broken by particular roles or magical items. If the tie is not broken, no punishment happens that day.

Ties in the punishment vote end in a result of mercy.


So right now for Imthecrew, punishment vs mercy count is:
(10) Punishment - Chief Rum, Lathum, Mustang, Hoopsguy, Kwhit, TYrith, Mr.Wednesday, Barkeep, Path12, DaddyTorgo
(4) Mercy - Ntndeacon, Swaggs, Sndvls, Joe

[Peregrine]

Well ImTheCrew has been chosen in the name vote. You have until 8:00 to change any punishment votes, at this point it looks like it's leaning substantially towards punishment.

[Barkeep49]

Ok my punishment vote was based on the theory that an indvidual needs to justify not having the punishment via role reveal. ITC has not done that and so my punishment vote happily remains.

[Tyrith]

Dola to clarify..

you vote a particular person

AND

you vote for punishment or mercy of the person who is selected.

I mentioned this earlier when people were voting punishment early in the day. They dont even know who will be up for punishment yet they had their minds decided.

Give me a reason to vote mercy, and I'll consider it. Otherwise, we need to be getting clears, even if it costs us some roles.

[BrianD]

Vote Punishment

I think I agree that punishment makes more sense than mercy without additional information. I realize this is a reversal of my earlier position.

[DaddyTorgo]

okay...i misunderstood about the punishment not applying to a particular person, but for the record for later in the game

VOTE PUNISHMENT

[Alan T]

Give me a reason to vote mercy, and I'll consider it. Otherwise, we need to be getting clears, even if it costs us some roles.

Don't look at me for a reason to vote mercy. I've said it often that unless given a reason, I think punishment NEEDS to be the default vote from us. Likewise that will be the direction I go if ITC isnt more talkative in the next 2-5 minutes.

My only comments was trying to make sure everyone has an informed reason for their votes, as I won't buy anyone saying they didn't understand the rules for punishment votes later. Peregrine has said twice now (once in the rules), and I've mentioned it twice how it works. So ignorance is no excuse tonight or later in the game.

[Peregrine]

I expected a lot of questions in this game, there's some tricky rules and I haven't made everything as clear as I could have in every case. Honestly, I'm pretty curious about how the whole thing will play out.

[hoopsguy]

Catching up - is there anything that ITC has posted that would be reason to move my vote from Punishment to Mercy? I'm about 50 posts behind, so will be trying to catch up on reading prior to deadline.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I don't think there's anything that ITC has posted, period.

[Alan T]

Checking in..... ill reveal if nessicary

cultist BTW

This is his contributions thus far.

I guess being on the line to be cleansed is not necessary for a reveal.

Vote punishment

[Mr. Wednesday]

Dunno if he's been in since he went up, in fairness — he's not in right now.

[SnDvls]

Do you mean like if they created a magical item?

yes

[Alan T]

This is what I have for the final votes:

(5) Imthecrew - Lathum (96), Kwhit (139), Tyrith (143), Path12 (185), Joe (187)
(3) Joe - Chief Rum (92), Mustang (119), Barkeep (182)
(2) Hoopsguy - Ntndeacon (161), BrianD (183)
(2) Chief Rum - Swaggs (103), Mr.Wednesday (179)
(1) Barkeep - Sndvls (159)
(1) Swaggs - Alan (110)
(1) Tyrith - Hoopsguy (120)
(1) Kwhit - DaddyTorgo (170)

(12) Punishment - Chief Rum, Lathum, Mustang, Hoopsguy, Kwhit, TYrith, Mr.Wednesday, Barkeep, Path12, DaddyTorgo, BrianD, Alan T
(4) Mercy - Ntndeacon, Swaggs, Sndvls, Joe


No votes:


10) Schmidty
14) ImTheCrew

[Peregrine]

yes

No, all magical items or mundane roles are kept if someone goes over to Shadow.

[Peregrine]

The votes are in, and today you vote for ImTheCrew. He is put in the ritual circle and the rest of you, with grim faces, perform the ritual of cleansing on him. He thrashes and writhes as the magic is ripped out of him, but there is no sign of Shadow corruption. After it is all over, he collapses to the ground. Based on what you saw of his magic during the ritual, you have determined that he was the Summoner.

All night actions should be in by midnight, I'll try to post daytime as soon as I can after that.


1) Mustang
2) BrianD
3) ntndeacon
4) Joe
5) Swaggs
6) Barkeep49
7) Kwhit
8) Lathum
9) Chief Rum
10) Schmidty
11) Mr. Wednesday
12) hoopsguy
13) DaddyTorgo
14) ImTheCrew - Summoner - Cleansed Day 1
15) Tyrith
16) Path12
17) Alan T
18) SnDvls

[SnDvls]

I'm sad to be called on it, but surprised you didn't figure out the rationale:

I don't actually believe that there is no mechanism for resolving ties. Therefore, I feel a tie would have given us a defacto role reveal. More public information = good thing for the villagers.

the Seal of Command can break ties

[SnDvls]

the Summoner role won't really hurt us so not a bad role to lose early on.

[Barkeep49]

Dunno if he's been in since he went up, in fairness — he's not in right now.
ITC is a hit or miss WW player in my experience.

[Barkeep49]

the Summoner role won't really hurt us so not a bad role to lose early on.
Agreed.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I think the Summoner offered more to the player than to the group at large.

[DaddyTorgo]

must...refer to list to see summoner's power

[Tyrith]

Not a huge loss. I'm wiling to cope with this.

[SnDvls]

okay going back to my lists of items & roles

completely bad items - Potion of Weariness & Potion of Darkness; neither help us at all. The second turns someone right away and the first actually limits us on the votes.

I did have some as good, but after rereading them and knowing what Peregrine said some of them can actually be used for bad as well as good so I'd list all the other items here.

As far as roles go Artificer & Sorceror are the two worst for us and can only do us harm so it'd be nice to have them cleansed and out of the way. Next dangerous as the game progresses and depending on how the players use their roles are Alchemist, Researcher, Witch, & Craft Mage (I added witch from my last list) so if you have a role in the 2nd four you are either playing with us by your night actions or playing in hopes of getting converted by you actions.

[BrianD]

Seems like the summoner could have spotted a conversion attempt in process.

[SnDvls]

I think the Summoner offered more to the player than to the group at large.

could have been dangerous if he lasted longer, but not a huge threat or danger unless his Imp found something and he was converted.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Seems like the summoner could have spotted a conversion attempt in process.

True. I was thinking more in terms of the other actions the imp could do.

[SnDvls]

Peregrine - do we know how many of one kind of potion can be in the game?

[ImTheCrew]

Peregrine, sorry im in 4 other werewolf games and i thought this ones deadline was nine! well it was fun anyways

[hoopsguy]

Crew, you are not dead. Just cleansed. So you can still participate in this one with votes, items, etc.

Congratulation, I guess, on being cleared.

[hoopsguy]

Dola ...

What better - Congratulation or Congratulations?

[Swaggs]

I'm back and caught up.

I didn't really understand the mercy/punishment stuff until Peregrine cleared it up.

[Mustang]

I was mixed up on the mercy/punishment, thought you were voting all on one guy but, that wouldn't have affected me today.

2 dynamics to watch.. flipping on mercy and punishment votes.

[path12]

So we have two shadows right now and each of them have a 50% chance of converting someone else but it can only be one conversion total, correct?

I also assume that since each one of them will put 50% chance that will make a conversion automatic tonight.

Sorry for thinking out loud, it helps me understand the rules better......

[path12]

I think the next question is reminiscent of the superheroes game......who would you convert if you could? Those are the people we'd want to watch/protect tonight, IMO.

[path12]

Peregrine, sorry im in 4 other werewolf games and i thought this ones deadline was nine! well it was fun anyways

Are you doing the BGG crash course? ;)

Too many games will mess you up, man. I know from experience.

[Lathum]

I think the next question is reminiscent of the superheroes game......who would you convert if you could? Those are the people we'd want to watch/protect tonight, IMO.

I think it may be best to ask the opposite. Who WOULDN't you convert because they would be likely seer scans.

[SnDvls]

So we have two shadows right now and each of them have a 50% chance of converting someone else but it can only be one conversion total, correct?

I also assume that since each one of them will put 50% chance that will make a conversion automatic tonight.

Sorry for thinking out loud, it helps me understand the rules better......

if they both put in the same name (which also assumes they've had good communication and either can be cleansed and at some point half clear some people who's names have been thrown about) then it's an automatic conversion. If they both put in different names then each has an equal 50% chance to convert, but only one conversion will happen.

[SnDvls]

I think the next question is reminiscent of the superheroes game......who would you convert if you could? Those are the people we'd want to watch/protect tonight, IMO.

depends on how we're going to play the game. if we continue on cleansing the "quiet" people then they should go after a more vocal person. if we change it up tomorrow and cleanse a more vocal person and the shadows went this route then we might have a change at nailing a shadow...it's a great chess game at this point.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I think the next question is reminiscent of the superheroes game......who would you convert if you could? Those are the people we'd want to watch/protect tonight, IMO.

At risk of making their job easier for them (in case I point out someone they hadn't already thought of)... I don't know that I'd have an exhaustive list, but a couple of names that spring to mine are your own (for very solid play as a bad guy on a couple of occasions, and usually insightful analysis even when you're not) and hoops (for a lot of good analysis as a good guy, been a while since I've been in a game where he's bad).

[Mr. Wednesday]

if they both put in the same name (which also assumes they've had good communication and either can be cleansed and at some point half clear some people who's names have been thrown about) then it's an automatic conversion. If they both put in different names then each has an equal 50% chance to convert, but only one conversion will happen.

Actually, 50% or more (rather than more than 50%) is automatic. No details on what happens tonight if they go for different people, as both would be automatic but there's a one conversion cap.