View Full Version : Pew Study of Muslim Americans
QuikSand
05-23-2007, 10:51 AM
A recently released study by the Pew Research Center targeted Muslims living in the United States, and asked a variety of questions. The results were perplexing in several respects.
Here's the full report: Pew Report (http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf)
Here's a link to a brief piece from yesterday's afternoon NPR program: ATC Story (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10330400)
And here's a graphic from the NPR website with a few summary items:
http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/may/22/muslims_stats.jpg
To me, however, the less obvious item that really got my attention was this survey questio... quoting from the Pew Report's descxription:
Somewhat larger differences emerge when it comes to views about who carried out the 9/11 terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and
the Pentagon. Those who identify themselves first as Muslim are twice as likely (40% vs. 20%) to say these attacks were not carried out by groups of Arabs. Slightly fewer than three-in-10 U.S. Muslims (28%) who think of themselves primarily as Muslim say they believe the 9/11 attacks were carried out by groups of Arabs while six-in-10 Muslims (61%) who think of themselves first as American say Arabs were responsible.
So... when asked who planned and carried out the 9/11 attacks, these two groups of Muslim Americans only believe that "Arabs" is accurate at a 28% and 61% rate. WHile I found a number of things in this report fairly interesting, I found this one to be simply staggering. As a weighted average, it's close to a 50/50 proposition on this question.
At the risk of this turning ugly... I find this really provocative. Is this another incarnation of the O.J. Simpson polling at work, where people's opinions on a seeming matter of fact (rather than opinion) are overwhelmingly guided by their cultural or racial association? Is this some sort of stigma at work -- that maybe in the process of responding to a survey/poll where you were clearly singled out as a Muslim, you become heightened about answering questions in a way that may be unflattering to Muslims?
Oh, and my usual caveat applies - turn this thread into a religiopolitical shitfest, and it's a goner.
flounder
05-23-2007, 10:55 AM
The thing that stands out for me is how much more radical the group from 18-29 is. That doesn't bode well for the future.
JPhillips
05-23-2007, 10:58 AM
I wish there was a breakdown between don't know and refused. I'd also like to see a breakdown of ethnicity of muslims. Is this really about Arabs protecting their own or is it equally spread among all ethnic groups?
For me there just isn't enough info. Maybe Pakistan isn't seen as Arab? It's an interesting question/answer, but I can't put a meaning to it.
QuikSand
05-23-2007, 11:00 AM
The full report, linked above, has a great deal of detail, but it doesn't easily fit into a McSummary graphic.
Qwikshot
05-23-2007, 11:05 AM
I'm not surprised nor concerned.
I wonder how many in the Bible belt consider themselves Christian first then American.
Drake
05-23-2007, 11:12 AM
I'm not surprised nor concerned.
I wonder how many in the Bible belt consider themselves Christian first then American.
Excellent. That's exactly what I was thinking. I certainly identify myself as Christian first.
Drake
05-23-2007, 11:13 AM
dola...
Similarly, I think a much higher percentage of devout Xians would say there's a conflict between their beliefs and modern life. Of course, if you asked that question 500 years ago or even a couple of thousand years ago of devout Xians, you'd probably get the same percentages as today.
CraigSca
05-23-2007, 11:14 AM
This is oddly-phrased. Christian first, American second? I don't pray to America, nor do base my morality on what the "United States" tells me. The fact is, I'm a Christian, and I happen to live in the US and follow the laws of this country.
st.cronin
05-23-2007, 11:14 AM
Heck, I've met many non-Muslims who believe 9/11 was perpetrated by either "the Jews" or the Government.
Warhammer
05-23-2007, 11:14 AM
I wish there was a breakdown between don't know and refused. I'd also like to see a breakdown of ethnicity of muslims. Is this really about Arabs protecting their own or is it equally spread among all ethnic groups?
For me there just isn't enough info. Maybe Pakistan isn't seen as Arab? It's an interesting question/answer, but I can't put a meaning to it.
Pakistan is not considered Arab. Most closely tied to India. Iran is not an Arab country either, they are Persians.
Telle
05-23-2007, 11:17 AM
In a book I've been reading, "Standing Alone in Mecca", there's a good amount of time spent on how American mosques have become more and more conservative and radicalized in the past 5-10 years. There's been a great deal of infiltration by young foreign Muslims, and they've been changing the community. The good thing is that there has been a more recent backlash from the more moderate American Muslims.. but it's appearantly quite a struggle right now to reclaim the faith from the fundamentalists.
JPhillips
05-23-2007, 11:17 AM
Glen Greenwald talks about the question of supporting violence and points out that many Americans support violence even against innocents.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/
Solecismic
05-23-2007, 11:18 AM
As Fareed Zakaria has written, the difference right now between Islam and other religions is the integration of political leadership and church leadership.
And here we are in the country that pioneered that separation.
The thing that stands out for me is how much more radical the group from 18-29 is. That doesn't bode well for the future.
That's not surprising to me at all (if anything I'm surprised it's not more pronounced). I think it's pretty well established across the board that young people tend to be more passionate about their beliefs and as they grow older they mellow out.
Now the stat that Quiksand points out is pretty staggering to me. That's just mind numbing.
Telle
05-23-2007, 11:19 AM
This is oddly-phrased. Christian first, American second? I don't pray to America, nor do base my morality on what the "United States" tells me. The fact is, I'm a Christian, and I happen to live in the US and follow the laws of this country.
I think it has to do with where your allegiance goes first, especially under situations in which the two may be in conflict.
QuikSand
05-23-2007, 11:37 AM
Heck, I've met many non-Muslims who believe 9/11 was perpetrated by either "the Jews" or the Government.
And I'm not suggesting that this shoudl be a question with a 100% yes response. I understand there are some who believe something other than the conventional wisdom. Ask that question to the entire US population, and you might get...hmm... maybe 5% or so disagreeing?
Buy 50% or thereabouts? To me, that's a major disconnect of some sort. And my guesses in the opening post are the best I have to undertand it.
st.cronin
05-23-2007, 11:38 AM
And I'm not suggesting that this shoudl be a question with a 100% yes response. I understand there are some who believe something other than the conventional wisdom. Ask that question to the entire US population, and you might get...hmm... maybe 5% or so disagreeing?
Buy 50% or thereabouts? To me, that's a major disconnect of some sort. And my guesses in the opening post are the best I have to undertand it.
It depends how you phrase the question. Phrase it right, you could get 50% easily.
st.cronin
05-23-2007, 11:43 AM
I haven't read the report, but for example, what you quote above says something like "groups of Arabs were responsible for 9/11." What was the question? I don't know, but maybe it was something like: "Do you believe Arabs were responsible for 9/11?" That's ambiguous enough that lots of non-Muslims would be delighted to answer "no."
QuikSand
05-23-2007, 11:51 AM
Here is the phrasing of the question used:
Do you believe that groups of Arabs carried out the attacks against the United States on September 11 2001, or don’t you believe this?
I am not a real expert in surveying, but to me that does a pretty good job of avoiding the mis-interpretation that one might conclude "well, US activities in the middle east are really responsible, not exclusively the people who actually did the attack itself" or the like. I'm sure the use of the term "carried out" was a very deliberate effort to weed out that sort of ambiguity. Sorry if my paraphrasing above failed to do so very well.
I haven't read the report, but for example, what you quote above says something like "groups of Arabs were responsible for 9/11." What was the question? I don't know, but maybe it was something like: "Do you believe Arabs were responsible for 9/11?" That's ambiguous enough that lots of non-Muslims would be delighted to answer "no."
The question was
"Do you believe that groups of Arabs carried out the attacks against the United States on September 11, 2001, or don't you believe this?"
nevermind, QS beat me to it....
QuikSand
05-23-2007, 11:54 AM
Actualy, this whole sub-section seems worth re-posting -- I'll try to get the formatting to work:
Q.H3 Do you believe that groups of Arabs carried out the attacks against the United States
on September 11 2001, or don’t you believe this?
April 2006 April 2006
-----Muslims in Europe---- -----Muslims only in Muslim Countries-----
Brit Fra Ger Spa Egypt Tur Indo Pak Jor Nig
40 Believe 17 48 35 33 32 16 16 15 39 42
28 Do not believe 56 46 44 35 59 59 65 41 53 47
32 DK/Refused 27 6 21 32 9 25 20 44 8 11
100 100 100 100 100 100 100 101 100 100 100
IF DON’T BELIEVE GROUPS OF ARABS RESPONSIBLE FOR 9/11 (Q.H3=2), ASK:
Q.H3a Who do you think might have been responsible for the attacks of 9/11? [RECORD VERBATIM
RESPONSE; IF DK OR REFUSE TO ANSWER, DO NOT PROBE]
BASED ON TOTAL18:
18 Do not believe in Q.H3 and Don’t know in Q.H3a
7 U.S. government conspiracy/President Bush
1 Israel/Jews
1 Others/Non-Muslims
1 Crazy/misguided people
28%
QuikSand
05-23-2007, 11:57 AM
I clearly failed in formatting that readably... but in the full report, it's on page 97.
When a respondent answered he did not believe "groups of Arabs" carried out the attacks, the follow-up question was asked. About 2/3 responded they didn't know, and most of therest responded they believed a US Govt conspiracy.
st.cronin
05-23-2007, 11:59 AM
Here is the phrasing of the question used:
I am not a real expert in surveying, but to me that does a pretty good job of avoiding the mis-interpretation that one might conclude "well, US activities in the middle east are really responsible, not exclusively the people who actually did the attack itself" or the like. I'm sure the use of the term "carried out" was a very deliberate effort to weed out that sort of ambiguity. Sorry if my paraphrasing above failed to do so very well.
Even a question like that, though, allows for the possibility that somebody else carried out the attacks.
Maybe a better question would have been "how likely do you think it is that Arabs carried out the 9/11 attacks?"
st.cronin
05-23-2007, 12:02 PM
I clearly failed in formatting that readably... but in the full report, it's on page 97.
When a respondent answered he did not believe "groups of Arabs" carried out the attacks, the follow-up question was asked. About 2/3 responded they didn't know, and most of therest responded they believed a US Govt conspiracy.
So 1/3 of half have a concrete belief. The rest are perhaps just unwilling to SAY they believe "Arabs carried out the attacks."
BrianD
05-23-2007, 12:02 PM
That almost sounds a bit like denial. Maybe they don't want to believe that people like them were responsible.
Maple Leafs
05-23-2007, 12:03 PM
I'm not surprised nor concerned. I wonder how many in the Bible belt consider themselves Christian first then American.
From Salon:
Furthermore, the Pew Poll from today itself revealed that 42% of American Christians -- 42% -- consider themselves "Christians first," not "Americans first." A very substantial portion of Christians, then, place allegiance to their religion above that of allegiance to the United States.
JediKooter
05-23-2007, 12:16 PM
From Salon:
Furthermore, the Pew Poll from today itself revealed that 42% of American Christians -- 42% -- consider themselves "Christians first," not "Americans first." A very substantial portion of Christians, then, place allegiance to their religion above that of allegiance to the United States.
I don't know. Poll questions can be asked in ways to make things seem more or less in favor of something. However, I've never blurred my citizenship with my religious beliefs. So the question of: "Christian first or American first" is not a valid question because it's comparing apples to oranges in my opinion.
QuikSand
05-23-2007, 12:22 PM
That almost sounds a bit like denial. Maybe they don't want to believe that people like them were responsible.
Well, to me, that's what I suspect is going on, at least in part. And I agree that the lack of a particular alternative probably supports this theory a bit.
Passacaglia
05-23-2007, 12:29 PM
I don't know. Poll questions can be asked in ways to make things seem more or less in favor of something. However, I've never blurred my citizenship with my religious beliefs. So the question of: "Christian first or American first" is not a valid question because it's comparing apples to oranges in my opinion.
Then wouldn't you choose both equally, or don't know? It seems like most people answered the question their own way.
st.cronin
05-23-2007, 12:40 PM
The 15% saying suicide bombing is justified scares the hell out of me more than anything else in there.
Passacaglia
05-23-2007, 12:42 PM
The 15% saying suicide bombing is justified scares the hell out of me more than anything else in there.
Agreed. The other questions are simply theoretical in comparison.
billethius
05-23-2007, 12:46 PM
The 15% saying suicide bombing is justified scares the hell out of me more than anything else in there.
Assuming what bothers you about suicide bombings is that it kills innocent civilians, take a look at the salon.com article posted above. Here's a link (http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/)...
st.cronin
05-23-2007, 12:50 PM
Assuming what bothers you about suicide bombings is that it kills innocent civilians, take a look at the salon.com article posted above. Here's a link (http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/)...
Interesting, on the other hand suicide bombing is something actually done, whereas the questions posed in that poll are theoretical.
Dutch
05-23-2007, 02:38 PM
I think the idea of "Muslim First or (nation-state) First" thing originates from the arab world. I know when I lived in Turkey they prided themselves as "Turks first, Muslim's second" (or the opposite of the arab world) and it's exactly as mentioned before--in case the two come in conflict.
Also, FWIW, I would like to know how many suicide bombers are 100% sober and detonate the explosives themselves vs the ones that are drugged up and detonated remotely. If Muslims understood that many were not of their clear mind, maybe the young kids wouldn't somehow come to the grotesque conclusion that having yourself blown up was romantic.
Fighter of Foo
05-23-2007, 02:45 PM
The 15% saying suicide bombing is justified scares the hell out of me more than anything else in there.
Here's the article I read about the study:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070522/ap_on_re_us/poll_muslim_americans
Two points:
1) "Only 5 percent of U.S. Muslims expressed favorable views of the terrorist group al-Qaida"
2) Given that there have been bombs planted at abortion clinics in the past and a bomb was found at Rev. Falwell's funeral the other day, I find it hard to believe a similar if not higher number of "Christians" would respond the same way.
st.cronin
05-23-2007, 02:53 PM
Here's the article I read about the study:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070522/ap_on_re_us/poll_muslim_americans
Two points:
1) "Only 5 percent of U.S. Muslims expressed favorable views of the terrorist group al-Qaida"
2) Given that there have been bombs planted at abortion clinics in the past and a bomb was found at Rev. Falwell's funeral the other day, I find it hard to believe a similar if not higher number of "Christians" would respond the same way.
Ok, well I guess you're free to be scared of Christian terrorists if that's how you feel.
Coder
05-23-2007, 02:56 PM
Here's the article I read about the study:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070522/ap_on_re_us/poll_muslim_americans
Two points:
1) "Only 5 percent of U.S. Muslims expressed favorable views of the terrorist group al-Qaida"
2) Given that there have been bombs planted at abortion clinics in the past and a bomb was found at Rev. Falwell's funeral the other day, I find it hard to believe a similar if not higher number of "Christians" would respond the same way.
Not sure you need a "non"-US POV here, but I think point 2 here is a point often forgotten. What statistics are gathered with regards to, hmm.. lets call it "violent incidents", in the name of Christianity nowadays. Abortion-clinic bombings is a good example. Like you said, a similar poll asking how many Christians supported abortionclinic attacks would be interesting.
I certainly hope that number would be lower, but you never know until you ask the question.
I also believe the higher "radical" factor at younger ages simply mirrors other issues in life. You see the same here in Europe when it comes to political conviction (much of the leftist movement here is actually younger people, academics, who once they get into the working life move more to the right).
Coder
05-23-2007, 03:04 PM
As Fareed Zakaria has written, the difference right now between Islam and other religions is the integration of political leadership and church leadership.
And here we are in the country that pioneered that separation.
From my experience, no other "Western country" places so much importance on religion as the United States.
When I first came to the US, religion was the first thing that stood out to me from what I was used to from home and from what I had understood by "studying" American culture through television and movies. Going to church once or even twice a week is just about unheard of here in Sweden, whereas where I was in the States it was the norm.
I'm not being negative towards the attitude, but I'm pointing out that there's no doubt that America is one of the more religious nations in the world, and that it most certainly affects it's politics. If George Bush said he didn't believe in God, do you think he'd be elected?
MalcPow
05-23-2007, 03:12 PM
From Salon:
Furthermore, the Pew Poll from today itself revealed that 42% of American Christians -- 42% -- consider themselves "Christians first," not "Americans first." A very substantial portion of Christians, then, place allegiance to their religion above that of allegiance to the United States.
I think the problem with a distinction like this is that many American Christians feel this way, but their religion is more of a way of life or attitude than something they have an 'allegiance' to. As noted above, Islam is tied to global political movements that drive conflict within and across borders, and not simply a faith in many cases. It is an organization as much as it is a set of beliefs to many of its followers.
So I understand the emotion that makes one say they are a Christian first, but America the country makes that type of lifestyle possible, one where practicing a faith is a largely personal and private affair. To many Muslims there is a deeper us/them distinction being made here, and one that has larger implications. I know I'm fumbling my way through this, but America isn't just borders, laws, etc., it's part of a western system of values that Christianity has largely adapted itself to and much of the Muslim world has not. Identifying yourself as a Christian first in America doesn't require you to reject much that is particularly American, so it's fairly trivial distinction to me. Whereas identifying yourself as Muslim first in America entails a more conflicted lifestyle, a greater likelihood that you relate to one of a number of global political movements of varying shades of moderation or extremism, and a greater likelihood that you are indentifying yourself as an outsider or alienated member of your community.
All this stems from what seems to me are two religions in different stages of development. Christianity has become more individual, a personal faith, and its existence as an entity or organization is difficult to grasp. Islam is preached as a vision of society, and although it can be broken and factional, its divides are largely a function of these differing visions (each of which is preached as a universal template for society) confronting each other at certain frictional hotspots. I kind of see it as the difference between saying you're a vegan and saying you're a Democrat, one is a personal lifestyle choice and the other is an allegiance to a group that holds certain beliefs but is nontheless an organization.
(I know there's a lot to poke holes in here, just trying to talk out some not fully fleshed out thinking I have. I think the 'Islam as group' argument might partly explain the discrepancy Quik raises on the 9/11 question as well. When you ask only Muslims that question, I think you'll get a large number of people who will respond to the word 'Arab' as an equivalent, and speak to their belief that it wasn't 'Islam' the organization that carried out the attacks. I don't know, I'm fishing...)
JediKooter
05-23-2007, 10:35 PM
Then wouldn't you choose both equally, or don't know? It seems like most people answered the question their own way.
Asked the way it was, I would have to answer 'both equally' because that would be the closest "most correct" answer for that question in my opinion. :)
bhlloy
05-24-2007, 12:25 AM
That almost sounds a bit like denial. Maybe they don't want to believe that people like them were responsible.
This is definitely a possibility. I think it is also possible that you have some sort of social effect going on where the respondent is insulted or feels like the interviewer is accusing them personally and responds by saying "it wasn't my fault it happened". Whatever is going on the 66% of respondents who then reply don't know to the second question says pretty strongly to me that most Muslim-Americans don't actually believe that anybody else carried out the attacks.
The meaning of the word "Arabs" could also be causing problems. Is someone from Egypt or Pakistan an Arab? Does your country of origin matter as to who you think is an Arab? Obviously Pew are trying to minimise mid-questionnaire terminates and not piss anyone off, but I'd have thought the question "Do you believe that groups of Muslims carried out the attacks against the United States on September 11 2001, or don’t you believe this?" is much more clear. Of course, then you might get even more people trying to deny that they are responsible. No-win situation I guess, unless you completely reword the question. Pew definitely know what they are doing.
As for the 15% of Muslims thinking suicide bombings are justified in theory - target a sample towards self-identified Evangelical Christians and mention abortion clinics in the question and I'm guessing the numbers aren't a million miles away. Would be an interesting follow up survey for Pew to do.
CraigSca
05-24-2007, 06:48 AM
As an "evangelical Christian", I feel their is a severe disconnect between blowing up abortion clinics and the teachings of Christ. While I can't speak for all, I can't imagine how someone could justify such an act.
Fonzie
05-24-2007, 02:57 PM
Well, to me, that's what I suspect is going on, at least in part. And I agree that the lack of a particular alternative probably supports this theory a bit.
I seem to recall hearing a bit on NPR a few months back about the difficulties of polling in Arab nations. The argument was that most Arabs live in less-than-free societies and tend to mistrust most anyone coming around asking opinion questions like these - so they often give the easiest/least damning response possible to avoid potential trouble. Perhaps a phenomenon along those lines is operating in the Arab American community?
GoDukes
05-24-2007, 03:38 PM
The thing that stands out for me is how much more radical the group from 18-29 is. That doesn't bode well for the future.
Disagree. I would be surprised if it were the other way around. People typically mellow and become more moderate as they age and gain experience in life.
Maple Leafs
05-24-2007, 03:41 PM
Disagree. I would be surprised if it were the other way around. People typically mellow and become more moderate as they age and gain experience in life.
When it comes to religion?
Klinglerware
05-24-2007, 04:05 PM
From my experience, no other "Western country" places so much importance on religion as the United States.
When I first came to the US, religion was the first thing that stood out to me from what I was used to from home and from what I had understood by "studying" American culture through television and movies. Going to church once or even twice a week is just about unheard of here in Sweden, whereas where I was in the States it was the norm.
I'm not being negative towards the attitude, but I'm pointing out that there's no doubt that America is one of the more religious nations in the world, and that it most certainly affects it's politics. If George Bush said he didn't believe in God, do you think he'd be elected?
Agreed. Of the liberal democracies, the United States is one of the least secular. For many, being Christian does matter more than being American. I suppose that is a paradox of living in a country where citizen's rights are theoretically protected under the law.
Fighter of Foo
05-24-2007, 04:31 PM
As an "evangelical Christian", I feel their is a severe disconnect between blowing up abortion clinics and the teachings of Christ. While I can't speak for all, I can't imagine how someone could justify such an act.<o></o>
It's only a few false logic steps away. You're likely a bad example, but most Christians aren't intimately familiar with the Bible and in general have read very little of the Bible itself outside of passages from church/bible study.
That's not necessarily a strong criticism, BTW. The Bible's freaking long, sometimes contradictory and very difficult to read.
Anyway, the point is you have to rely on others to interpret/explain what certain things mean. Again, this is not a criticism. However, the more organized or orthodox the religion, the less room there is for personal interpretation.
Now let's say you belong to a very strict church and the leader(s) of that church also has some radical views compared to most other people. Combine this with the want/need of most people to conform to general church doctrine and what's sometimes a lack of questioning and critical thinking. Can you see how well meaning Christians can be misled into believing a whole bucket of falsehoods? It's usually not a forceful shove, but steady nudging and association with like-minded individuals, all of whom believe (insert specific unholy falsehood here).
Let me give an example to what was likely a very vague explanation. The Aryan Brotherhood believe the most significant passage in the Bible, is<u1> </u1>Genesis 9:5, in which God says to Noah, “And surely your blood of your lives will I<u1> </u1>require...” Why? Because followers believe this means God only<u1></u1> loves white people, who show their blood in their faces when they blush.
This is obviously, profoundly retarded.
But what if everyone you associated with believed this? And what if your questioning made you a non-believer? And what if, as a test of your faith, you were asked to do (insert unspeakable unholy act here)?<o></o>
Not picking on Christianity as a wannabe Christian myself; the process is the same for all religious bigotry/violence.<o></o>
Hope that made sense.
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path12
05-24-2007, 05:25 PM
I don't see much of a difference between the answer regarding Arabs being behind 9/11 and a majority of Americans answering that Saddam was behind it......
I don't see much of a difference between the answer regarding Arabs being behind 9/11 and a majority of Americans answering that Saddam was behind it......
ugh, source?
Butter
05-25-2007, 06:37 AM
"religiopolitical"?
Telle
05-25-2007, 07:44 AM
The meaning of the word "Arabs" could also be causing problems. Is someone from Egypt or Pakistan an Arab? Does your country of origin matter as to who you think is an Arab? Obviously Pew are trying to minimise mid-questionnaire terminates and not piss anyone off, but I'd have thought the question "Do you believe that groups of Muslims carried out the attacks against the United States on September 11 2001, or don’t you believe this?" is much more clear. Of course, then you might get even more people trying to deny that they are responsible. No-win situation I guess, unless you completely reword the question. Pew definitely know what they are doing.
Well from what I recall, most if not all of the attackers actually on the planes were from Saudi Arabia.. and that's as "Arab" as you get. Bin Laden is also from Saudi Arabia.. and that would lead me to believe that a good chunk of the core leadership in Al Queda most likely is too. So basically everyone involved in carrying out the attacks was, by definition, Arab.
Also, I think if the question had said "Muslim" instead of "Arab", it could create some very misleading results. Because even those people who do believe that the attacks were carried out by the group of Arabs that the rest of the world says did it, I think you'd have many of the respondents saying that there's no way those people could have been "true" Muslims.
Fighter of Foo
05-25-2007, 11:04 AM
Fascinating...
http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people6/Pape/pape-con3.html
"That kind of a project, that instinct, led me to collect the first complete database of every suicide terrorist attack around the world, from 1980 through early 2004, and then since then, I've updated this database for the crucial case of Iraq, just through December of 2005. That database contains 462 suicide terrorists who've killed themselves in order to kill other innocents. What's one of the most striking things about those 462, over half are secular....
So, as I began to collect the data and as I put the data set together, that's when it also jumped out at me what was driving suicide terrorism, because what over 95 percent of all suicide terrorist attacks, around the world since 1980, have in common is not religion but a specific strategic goal: to compel a modern democracy to withdraw combat forces -- I don't mean advisors with side-arms; I mean tanks, fighter aircraft, or APCs -- from territory the terrorists view is their homeland, or prize greatly. From Lebanon, to Chechnya, to Sri Lanka, to Kashmir, to the West Bank, every suicide terrorism campaign since 1980 has had as its central objective to compel a democratic state to withdraw combat forces from territory that the terrorists prize."
EDIT one more quote: "We don't see suicide terrorism often as the first choice of a terrorist group. Instead, we see it as the choice after many other things have failed. In fact, suicide terrorist groups are often large guerilla organizations with thousands and thousands of members who have tried ordinary guerilla tactics, or even ordinary terrorism, before resorting to suicide terrorism."
Dutch
05-25-2007, 03:49 PM
When it comes to religion?
Most definately.
GoDukes
05-25-2007, 04:11 PM
When it comes to religion?
I would say typically, yes. Not everyone, but I'd say most to mellow out and become more moderate in their views as they age.
If I had to come up with a reason for this, I would say it's because they find things that become more important to them: i.e. family.
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