Another job advice thread

[Flasch186]

As you all may or may not know I have a pretty great job as is but it is 100% commission selling new homes. This can be trying at times but my best friend and I are partners and have never been concerned that we wouldnt make enough money to be happy.

Over the past 6 months Ive seemingly played my cards right and Today I was presented with a feeler to be filling the job of Regional Sales Trainer. This job would be a corporate position instead of a divisional one. The income would be about the same but would be guaranteed. I would also go to having weekends off which would be good when we decide to start a family, my new wife and I.

The job would be new, a challenge, and something that would most definitely look good on a resume and is quite tempting.

I spoke with the person leaving this position to take a somewhat lateral move but one with more upside. This is where some of the rub lies with the trainer position. From that position there is no telling where the next promotion would be, if at all since it goes from regional to national (this is why she moved to a divisional manager role which sounds like a downward move but isnt). So its somewhat a move into a position that may have no move from it.

The added dimension to this is that I was told that I have also been earmarked for a future role in divisional management which is the gateway to a very long and prosperous ladder, but of course less job security since its a salaried ladder. This position hasnt become available AND until the market becomes tolerable to corporate expansion in the housing market regarding overhead, the position is on hold. She made it clear that the position was mine when it is created but that could be as few as 4 months away and as far away as a year.

In the meantime, I like the job I have for the most part. Its minimal stress, flexible hours (somewhat), good money, I work with my best friend in a situation where the main office generally leaves us alone, we have top respect from management, and we have freedom (somewhat).....

I dont handle this situation well and am stressing to no end. Im giving myself an ulcer and perhaps just typing this stuff out is therapeutic in some way. There is a part of me that feels like a puss for thinking about taking a promotion that would leave my best friend/brother behind but Im 30 and isnt that something that I need to let go of? As a Sales management position (the one Id have to wait for) it is high pressure, high stress, and constant working (quotas) etc. The Regional training position (the first one) is low stress but I know much much less about that position and what stresses it comes with however it would be reporting to some people who are way way up on the power pole.

If I rebuff their advances, again, Im afraid Ill earn myself a scarlett letter and miss out on future chances for advancement and with the ideas of family in the forecast isnt it wiser to take good guaranteed money? there is a part of me that wants to take a role of advancement but which one? Is now the right time? I know that no one can know this stuff but Im just venting to you guys since I respect many of you guys (Im sure an HA comment is to follow) but the people closest to me have their own issues clouding their judgment and advice.

Where is EF?

[Eaglesfan27]

You rang?


It's tough to say what you should do, however, I think you need to decide what is best for you and your family. I don't thinking "leaving behind your best friend/brother" should stop you from taking a job if it is the best thing for you personally. Such a good friend should be happy for you and not bitter about your advancement. Of course taking the job, may not be the best thing for you if there is tremendous stress involved and it will ultimately lead to you being less available for your family. But, it sounds like you don't know what stress this first move will entail. Sounds like something you need to think about and decide what is best for you and your family with all of these factors considered including all of the ones you listed.

[Flasch186]

You rang?


It's tough to say what you should do, however, I think you need to decide what is best for you and your family. I don't thinking "leaving behind your best friend/brother" should stop you from taking a job if it is the best thing for you personally. Such a good friend should be happy for you and not bitter about your advancement. Of course taking the job, may not be the best thing for you if there is tremendous stress involved and it will ultimately lead to you being less available for your family. But, it sounds like you don't know what stress this first move will entail. Sounds like something you need to think about and decide what is best for you and your family with all of these factors considered including all of the ones you listed.


So at least we can determine that eventhough I feel terrible leaving my partner/best friend/brother and that I feel like Im abandoning him, these are normal feelings but I need to be able to put them aside?

He has said, and there are reasons for it, that climbing the ladder here may not be a good thing and that ill run into some ethical conundrums but there is a part of me that is looking forward to those moments to see if I can make a difference. This would be most prevalent I think in the second choice while the first choice will have me as Regional sales trainer but being pulled and "used" as some divisional help too.

I'd bet that the trainer job would be more laid back, free weekends, and basically I'll be able to attain a higher level of achievement in the position but again I could get stuck there. the other job is "on call" a lot. etc.

In exploring these options with the girl who is talking to me about taking over her old position I asked and she reiterated a few times that if at anytime I feel like it's not for me I could "go back on the floor".

I just feel awful for having to choose anything as change worries me in all things which is something I have to get over.

[wade moore]

If you take this new position and the Division Management position opens in 4 months, would you still be able to move to that position?

I'm with EF27 on the best friend. You can't feel guilty about that. You cannot realistically think that you will be able to ride along with him in your career forever.

Side Note: Is anyone else absolutely shocked to find out Flasch is 30?!

[Flasch186]

If you take this new position and the Division Management position opens in 4 months, would you still be able to move to that position?

I'm with EF27 on the best friend. You can't feel guilty about that. You cannot realistically think that you will be able to ride along with him in your career forever.

Side Note: Is anyone else absolutely shocked to find out Flasch is 30?!

I asked her that very same question under the assumption that management would be of the opinion that it was "too soon" for me to move from a new position I just got to another new position but she said, "with you, I dont think that that would be a problem, but with someone else, perhaps someone hired from outside....they may have to overcome that viewpoint from management." Im not sure she knows exactly, of course, but having her in my corner would help to overcome it, I would have to hope. Obviously this becomes more of a problem the closer the second position is to my accepting the first one. (closer being bad....too far out being bad....somewhere in the middle being perfect)


I dont feel 30.....but my best friend and I had delusions that perhaps we could just do this forever, its like hanging out at work and making a good living at it...but things have changed a little, the idea of kids, burnout, the stress of a down real estate market, etc. There is also the concern regarding that line of thought that I pass up all of these opportunities to stay put and then someday he takes an opportunity that is presented to him and Im left holding the bag. I know that along with my promotion Ill do everything I can to get him promoted somewhere too but Im sure it wouldnt/couldnt be immediate.....he is much much worse at office politics.

[wade moore]

Personally, if it's me, I take what is more stable/long-term for me and my family - as long as I don't think I'll dislike it... it seems to me that what you're in now is just so risky and shaky for someone with a family...

[Flasch186]

Personally, if it's me, I take what is more stable/long-term for me and my family - as long as I don't think I'll dislike it... it seems to me that what you're in now is just so risky and shaky for someone with a family...

Im leaning towards your line of thinking:

Take the trainer position which is stationed in the same office the management job would be stationed so I can get a sneak peek at things to come when youre in the line of fire in the management promotion. IF it is a rude awakening I could not take it, and if the ceiling gets too shallow in the trainer job Im sure it would still help bolster the resume to do something else. Its just really hard to put a stamp on it saying it......It makes my stomach do somersaults.

[wade moore]

Im leaning towards your line of thinking:

Take the trainer position which is stationed in the same office the management job would be stationed so I can get a sneak peek at things to come when youre in the line of fire in the management promotion. IF it is a rude awakening I could not take it, and if the ceiling gets too shallow in the trainer job Im sure it would still help bolster the resume to do something else. Its just really hard to put a stamp on it saying it......It makes my stomach do somersaults.

It also opens up your future career options... instead of just having a long sales background, you'll have sales and training..

Idano, from my perspective I'm not sure I see how this is a hard position.. at 30 I would think a chance to get out of 100% position for the same money is a no-brainer.

[flere-imsaho]

First of all, I'd like to say that I'm a big fan of the new paragraph-style Flasch posting. :p

I'm with EF27 on the best friend. You can't feel guilty about that. You cannot realistically think that you will be able to ride along with him in your career forever.

Yep, agree.

Personally, if it's me, I take what is more stable/long-term for me and my family - as long as I don't think I'll dislike it... it seems to me that what you're in now is just so risky and shaky for someone with a family...

Yep, agree again.

I think you've done your homework well, Flasch, in that your assumptions on what each potential job will be like seem (based on what I know of the industry) to be correct. Managing sales, in almost any industry, is, as you said, about managing quotas, getting on people's cases, playing the politics, worrying about the numbers, and plenty of weekend work.

Sales Training, on the other hand, probably isn't quite as rosy as you're picturing it, as it could end up having a bit more travel, and even some weekend (i.e. setup) work than you think. However, it's also a good career choice, as long as you like the type of work. This is a position that's going to require that a) you know your company's protocols thoroughly, b) you're happing with teaching young punks like you were 5 years ago and c) you like being up in front of people. Sales training is also a pretty transferable skill and experience set, and can end up being very lucrative down the road, which has always seemed a bit of a driver for you. So, if you decide down the road to leave the real estate industry, it won't be as if you've backed yourself into a corner.

Anyway, best of luck.

[Solecismic]

Keeping this simple:

Managers really, really hate it when they offer someone what they perceive is a promotion, and he turns it down.

What you're doing is rejecting their way of life, their value system. They take it personally, and a wedge of mistrust infects the relationship.

Sometimes, a promotion is the worst thing that can happen. It forces you to to decide whether you're willing to accept that company's value system.

[Glengoyne]

Just to summarize the new option.

-Salary instead of Commission-- lateral move salary wise, but the security is a plus.
-This will improve your position in the job market overall, as it distinguishes you from the crowd.
-Will have you working ostensibly side-by-side with executive management, which gives you a good opportunity to show off your chops.
-Might be a springboard to other opportunities in the company.


The only dowside is that you will be stepping away from your BF. Have you discussed this opportunity with him? It probably wouldn't be an issue, but I don't think it makes much sense to worry about something that may very well be a non-issue. I believe the honest approach to dealing with friends and partners is the way to go.

[st.cronin]

Keeping this simple:

Managers really, really hate it when they offer someone what they perceive is a promotion, and he turns it down.

What you're doing is rejecting their way of life, their value system. They take it personally, and a wedge of mistrust infects the relationship.

Sometimes, a promotion is the worst thing that can happen. It forces you to to decide whether you're willing to accept that company's value system.

Very true.

[Flasch186]

as a secondary subject, I really do not handle these situations well....im a mess and nothing has really even happened yet. Its crazy how my brain goes nuts when these tribulations come up. i remember when i was just dating ashley, sitting in a model home by myself, thinking, thinking, thinking...and the next thing you know after 6 hours of thinking, im trying to break up with her. All put together in my mind over thinking. Sometimes I just wish G-d himself would come down and tell me the right answer to issues.

This is one of the reasons why I have a hard time drinking in large quantities. I am the most timid of stomachs. Last night Ashley is telling me to take the job(s), tonight its dont take it unless I think I should....all just fucking up my brain and the minute I think I've made a decision in my head (like to take the regional job last night) I spend the next 24 hours or so, worrying about the decision that's been made. This cant be normal at this scale.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I got your answer for you. Take the promotion, if you don't like it, just go back to selling houses (with your track record, you could do that for anyone including probably the same company) or try something else with that added to the resume. Seems to be a no lose here.

[Flasch186]

I got your answer for you. Take the promotion, if you don't like it, just go back to selling houses (with your track record, you could do that for anyone including probably the same company) or try something else with that added to the resume. Seems to be a no lose here.

god? :)

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Almost. I only temp at it sometimes.

[Flasch186]

FWIW, I threw my name in the hat today and apparently there is some competition in Houston for the gig. I told my partner/best friend and he expressed his bewilderment and disappointment but said that he wasnt mad and everything would be fine in the end. That is the most gut wrenching part of all of this no matter how naiive it is. We had thought or planned on riding this thing out together until we decided to do something together as a partnership in business (ie. our own brokerage). Worst case scenario now is that I dont get the gig, as my partner will hold some bitterness about the situation and my "willingness to leave" while trying to maintain the status quo in the sales center for whatever length of time there is before the next drama occurs. I just put together my resume again since my old computer died years ago....note to self: maintain your resume as you go and back that shit up.

[Flasch186]

I go to dinner tonight with the Nat'l sales trainer guy and I've heard he thought I did great, as I taught a contract class yesterday, he said in front of me to someone else. Anyways, I think we have another issue that they may not be able to overcome.

I want the normal Base salary and bonuses common to the position AND additional monies for the computer work I do for the division PLUS 100% of my already sold backlog when they eventually close.

Im not sure that they will do all of that....but we shall see. Im extremely nervous about tonight, this decision and all of it. This could potentially, as is, be a $30,000 pay cut AND if they try to not pay me all of my backlog, it would be approximately a $70,000 paycut. That would be simply un-doable however these numbers are unknowable. If things continue as is, in the neighborhood I sell in, than that is somewhere in the ballpark of my estimates of differences in pay.

Any suggestions, changes of opinion, advice for tonight.....

[Eaglesfan27]

No suggestions, but I hope everything goes well for you tonight.

[Flasch186]

No suggestions, but I hope everything goes well for you tonight.

thanks man, i appreciate that. I will look forward to when this episode of my life is over no matter the outcome.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I am thinking that anyone who would do something to you deep down that you think is unfair (e.g. like not paying your sales backlog) isn't someone you should want to work for. Choose people to work for who treat you fairly and with respect or move on (maybe not right now because of certain financial circumstances, but as soon as you can -- think of it as a stop gap). Didn't you say you could go back to selling no problem (even if with a different co.). If they don't do what you want, don't be too overhanded, but tell them you are "disappointed" in their decision and it has caused you "to have to rethink the move." See what their reaction is. Again, you haven't committed to leaving or given them a direct ultimatum, but they should get the message you are unhappy. Then gauge their response to help you decide your next course of action.

[Flasch186]

a conversation with my best friend/sales partner let me know how awful an effect this is having...he is now thinking about a new career, he is thinking of cutting his parents out of his life, he's fighting with his fiance regularly, he is simply put unhappy. How much of this is due to me, the circumstances, or none of the above is unknown but it certainly makes me feel ultimately crappy as "all get out" as my Jewish guilt has all arrows pointing at me. He said that one of the main reasons to be in this job is that we worked together and without that he just doesnt feel like this is it for him. At work today he was totally vacant and unable to give service at all. I feel like shite.

[Eaglesfan27]

If someone is thinking about cutting their parents out of their life, fighting with their fiance', etc, it almost certainly has much more to do with other factors in his life besides his job and your decision to pursue an opportunity. You shouldn't feel guilty about this. One has to do what is best for themself and their family.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Flasch, you should have no guilt. You career choice simply could not have possibly led to all the shiite going on his life. Trust me on that one.

And ask yourself this. What is he thinking? That you guys would work together for the next 40 years? I mean c'mon. It had to end sometime, no? Your friend should be happy you got to work together as long as you did because most of us don't get to work one single day with our best friends.

[Flasch186]

SO I interviewed with the Nat'l. Sales Prez and the interview couldnt have gone better (a pre interview estimate said it should be 30 minutes and instead it went an hour and 15). I heard that it went well....

HOWEVER, then the girl who held the job previously that took the sales management job which created the opportunity announced on monday that she is moving back home to be with a beau. So now the S has hit the F. The division wants me to take a General Sales Management position at a much lower rate than the training job that I was interviewing for. AFAIK, it is really muddied the waters because I have stated repeatedly that the Training gig was the gig I wanted (for now) and eventually would consider management but now they are looking at me as management.

In the meantime, Im in purgatory. I have no idea what is going on and all of my peers know that Im up for the training gig and have started to treat me in a different way...not necessarily a bad way but an inquisitive way. Some have asked about interviewing for the gig themselves.

Anwyways, its odd and not a good feeling to not know where I stand. The National trainer called me and told me that I was their guy but that there are some people asking questions about the trainer position vs. the sales management position and he asked me if I wanted the management position. I told him I was truly "jazzed" about the trainer position and thought that I could do a great job at that.

in the meantime I wait and the ulcer is reminding me of its existence.

[Warhammer]

Anwyways, its odd and not a good feeling to not know where I stand. The National trainer called me and told me that I was their guy but that there are some people asking questions about the trainer position vs. the sales management position and he asked me if I wanted the management position. I told him I was truly "jazzed" about the trainer position and thought that I could do a great job at that.

in the meantime I wait and the ulcer is reminding me of its existence.

If this was me, and I intended to turn down the Sales Management job, I would tell them that although flattered by the offer, that you do not yet feel like you are ready for a position with so much responsibility. I would go on to tell them that the trainer position would be more of a step towards the sales management position because in the management position you serve as a mentor to your salesforce. By honing your training skills you would be better able to direct and manage your salesforce, etc.

It might wind up shooting you in the foot, but it would let them know that you do have a career plan, etc.

[st.cronin]

Sounds like you're hosed, to me - if not in the short run, in the long run. Might be time to start sending out some resumes.

[Warhammer]

If you really like selling houses and do a great job, why would he be hosed in the long run? I know plenty of sales guys who stayed in regular sales jobs because they made tons of money doing it and didn't want to move up the ladder. Some of them even make more than the heads of their company.

[st.cronin]

If you really like selling houses and do a great job, why would he be hosed in the long run? I know plenty of sales guys who stayed in regular sales jobs because they made tons of money doing it and didn't want to move up the ladder. Some of them even make more than the heads of their company.

The impression I get from this thread is that's not what he wants to do. If it is, then why is this causing him an ulcer?

[Flasch186]

Moving up in the company is not something that Im against but it's certainly a balance with income.

The ulcer is because I dont handle drama or untied ends well.

Ill do the Sales Management job as long as it financially makes sense however the training job, to me, sounds and has been described to me as THE job.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Push for the training job, and tell them you really, really want it and will kick ass at it. See what happens.

[Flasch186]

I was told today that the position has been put on indefinite hold and I let them know that I wasn't interested in the other management position at the pay that they mentioned was the starting pay for that gig. It just doesnt make sense to do it, take on the added workload for a massive paycut. They reiterated that im their guy but that theyre not sure when that will be. SO the positive is that I had great interviews all the way to the top...I guess the negative is that Ill still be working Sunday's this fall.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Hang in there. Don't forget to keep your options open, so to speak.

[Marc Vaughan]

My second job out of university was with a large corporation, a chap there a couple of years older than me took me under his wing and we became very close friends, ending up travelling off-site working together as colleagues a fair bit (which usually consisted of working in a foreign country while simultaneously trying to drink it dry ;)).

During this stint I got an offer for a six month contract which paid ludicrously well - my friend tried to talk me out of taking it (I'd only been in industry for a few years so it was unusual for someone without a long track record to get this sort of offer) - I hummed and haaaed for a long time before taking it for similar reasons to those you've stated.

That contract job helped me on the road to my current career and also I believe freed my friend to pursue a similar offer he'd recieved (which otherwise I think he might have declined).

So plus side is that it helped both our careers - downside is I haven't spoken to him in years now .... would we still be close friends if I hadn't taken the job, to be honest I'll never know - I do know however that you can't 'freeze' time and that people and circumstances change - if you feel its a good opportunity take it.

I generally role play such situations and try and imagine myself age 65 looking back on life and decide whether it'd bother me that I hadn't tried the route available - if I think I might wonder 'what would have happened if' and it seems a good opportunity then I take it ....