Deeproute

[bbor]

Dunno if this has been posted before.The programmer has a great horseracing and basketball online game to his credit with a huge fanbase.I've been playing both games for 6 or 7 years.


http://deeproute.com/

[rjolley]

Ran across 2 online sports sims that I thought I'd pass along. Haven't played them for long, but they're fun so far.

BuzzerBeater.org (http://www.buzzerbeater.org) is a HatTrick-like basketball sim. I'm signed up as the Georgia Bearcats in the USA, league IV.13. So far, it's been fun. Won my first 2 games. Saw the ad for it on HatTrick, so they may have something to do with it.

DeepRoute.com (http://www.deeproute.com) is an online football sim that's currently in beta. I read about it on Bill Abner's blog, I believe, and was able to get a squad. They have filled the current league, but may open another one for testing. The draft has taken place already. You set up preferences of which position you value more, whether you want to base their value on current value or potential, and whether the player is a vet or a youngster. The playbooks are pretty detailed at first glance. I'll have to dig into them this weekend and see just how detailed they are.

[finketr]

to hell with any "hattrick" like games.. i'm not going for another set of getting screwed by another random number generator

[Eaglesfan27]

to hell with any "hattrick" like games.. i'm not going for another set of getting screwed by another random number generator


Don't almost all games use random number generators as part of the process to determine results?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Don't almost all games use random number generators as part of the process to determine results?
HOW DARE YOU BRING LOGIC INTO THIS

[FrogMan]

to hell with any "hattrick" like games.. i'm not going for another set of getting screwed by another random number generator

not knowing the developper, you can't say that. HT was fun for a while, until they broke it real good by letting the economy go down and player prices hit the basement floor...

FM

[FrogMan]

Don't almost all games use random number generators as part of the process to determine results?

what finketr meant is the whole game engine of HT is pretty flawed. You could have some much stronger teams in ratings and skills and yet lose. And then, not only lose, but get abso-fucking-lutely screwed with a 6-0 loss in a league cup while being a division II team to a fucking division V team who's staying down because it's making more money down there because, back to the economy model here, well, if you don't win all your games, your fucking intelligent fans will not show up to your home games. Said division V team had the talent of a high division III team but has been sandbagging for many seasons, winning just enough games in a season to win the league, but throwing the qualifying match in order not to go up.

Phew, as you can see, I could go on and on about what went wrong with Hattrick. :)

FM

[finketr]

what finketr meant is the whole game engine of HT is pretty flawed. You could have some much stronger teams in ratings and skills and yet lose. And then, not only lose, but get abso-fucking-lutely screwed with a 6-0 loss in a league cup while being a division II team to a fucking division V team who's staying down because it's making more money down there because, back to the economy model here, well, if you don't win all your games, your fucking intelligent fans will not show up to your home games. Said division V team had the talent of a high division III team but has been sandbagging for many seasons, winning just enough games in a season to win the league, but throwing the qualifying match in order not to go up.

Phew, as you can see, I could go on and on about what went wrong with Hattrick. :)

FM

bingo...

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Saw some info about this and didn't know if anyone knew anything about it........

http://deeproute.com/default.asp

[Cringer]

This goes back to the guy who was pushing for an online only version of FOF in the 'What Do You Want To See Next From Solecismic?' thread?

It will end up being pay by season/month so no chance I will look at it any further.

[Anthony]

LOL - this is exactly the game i said Solecismic should make.


bye bye GLB. i now get to own my own team and not have to deal with playing time issues or trying to be a starter. this game could be huge. at 1st i thought it was for a text-based game and i wasn't that thrilled since there's several coming down the pike, but an online football sim game - sign me up.

[Anthony]

This goes back to the guy who was pushing for an online only version of FOF in the 'What Do You Want To See Next From Solecismic?' thread?



that was me. :D

[Ben E Lou]

Third time (at least) this has been posted...

BuzzerBeater, HatTrick-like basketball sim, and DeepRoute, online football sim - Front Office Football Central (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?p=1585099#post1585099)

Deeproute - Front Office Football Central (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?p=1488305#post1488305)

Merging...

[rjolley]

I'm in the beta for DeepRoute. It's a lot of fun. For those that want FOF online, this may be what you're looking for.

[lordscarlet]

Doesn't look pretty, but I'll probably give it a go.

[lordscarlet]

Wade and I joined a new league (games only every other day :() that should start up in the next day or so. If anyone wants to try this out (we're both n00bs) it seems like a perfect time to jump in.

[Crim]

I'm in yer league, lordscarlet. Haven't dug around much, but this looks hella more interesting than GLB. It'll be interesting to see how the games play out.

[Icy]

Which league are you guys in? i just signed up.

[lordscarlet]

#16, Every Other Day League

[lordscarlet]

dola: there are 5 of us so far (Wade, Crim, Tanas, gstelmack and myself)

[Icy]

Ok, i'm in your division, i'm the new Boston Gophers new GM (Btw, i can't change team name it seems)

[rjolley]

You should be able to change team names under My Teams => Team Name => Change Team Info. You may not be able to change them until the league fills.

[lordscarlet]

You can only change the team city, name and logo in the off-season... You missed it by about 10 hours :)

[Icy]

Is the site so slow for anybody else?

[lordscarlet]

I'm screwed. I am the only one without sim experience. :)

It's not slow for me.

[rjolley]

Be sure to report issues and make suggestions if you have any. The programmers have been very good about listening to suggestions and implementing them when they make sense.

[Ragone]

I signed up and took over the Kc Hippos.. joy

[Passacaglia]

I took the Detroit Iguanas in League 16.

[lordscarlet]

I signed up and took over the Kc Hippos.. joy

My first opponent. :)

[21C]

I'm in league 14 as the Lincoln Bugeaters. The league is all human but I was able to pick up a lot of quality FAs to upgrade my team which was a little disappointing.

I was a bit lost with getting used to the game/interface early but since I'm more comfortable with it I've been really enjoying it.

[Anthony]

Burros in league 16. looks like a good game, the playbook screen is too complicated. i hope they have some default playbooks you can download or something. again, i want to be the GM - i don't care about playcalling. aaaargh.

[wade moore]

Burros in league 16. looks like a good game, the playbook screen is too complicated. i hope they have some default playbooks you can download or something. again, i want to be the GM - i don't care about playcalling. aaaargh.

Yeah.. it's bad when you can say, "Boy - this guys could learn something from Jim about simplifying the gameplanning options".

[lordscarlet]

I posted a message about default playbooks and they said it's on the top of their list.

[dbd1963]

I took the last team in the league, the Seattle Deer. This game could be a little too complicated for my comfort level, but we'll see.

[Crim]

This game could be a little too complicated for my comfort level, but we'll see.

I hope you are terrible at it. Really really crappy.

I need to not finish last all the time.

Just like the Bengals need the Lions, I need you to join me in perpetual mediocrity.


With all due respect, of course.

[dbd1963]

I hope you are terrible at it. Really really crappy.

I need to not finish last all the time.

Just like the Bengals need the Lions, I need you to join me in perpetual mediocrity.


With all due respect, of course.

Looking at the playbook made my head swim, so I think I can meet your requirements here..

[Anthony]

I fiddled around with the playbook around 1 am this morning, and i thought it might've seen overly complicated due to the late hour and maybe i was just being impatient cuz i wanted to set up my playbook before going to bed. i'm glad to see i'm not the only one who couldn't get a grasp on it.

the game certainly looks like it has a ton of potential though. i knew Solecismic should've jumped on this, cuz this game is essentially FOF Online, the one that was supposed to have come out years ago but was shelved. but yeah, they're gonna have to come out with some type of default playbook where i only need to tweak some things for me to really dive into this. looks like it'll be fun nonetheless.

[Vince]

Seems that their dispersal draft application is going to make it difficult to cater a team to a particular strategy initially. If I'm reading it right, it's a serpentine draft, but they do one position at a time. So for example...

1. Team with highest QB preference picks a QB
2. Team with second highest QB preference picks a QB
3. etc...
...
32. Team with lowest QB preference picks a QB
33. Team with lowest QB preference picks a QB
34. Team with second lowest QB preference picks a QB.
...

Etc, until everyone has all of their QBs. Then they start over with RB's.

So even with maxed out WR preference, I get 1 great WR, then I have to wait for everyone else to pick two before I get my second one. Might make more sense to go LOW preference for the positions where you want more than one player who is good -- having the #32 and #33 WR seems like it would be more successful than having #1 and #64.

[Vince]

As an addendum, I think I'm going to max out on Experienced QB and leave everything else at 1. Other than punter and kicker (which I'd rather not waste draft allocation points for), you need at least 2 of everything else.

This way I get first choice on QB, and I'm guaranteed the most balanced pair of everything else.

[lordscarlet]

I wish I had looked at it in that much detail. :)

[Ragone]

Hippos looking good in preseason! :)

[Vince]

Well, the more I think about it, the more I'm not sure. I have no idea what the talent stratification is going to be -- with an even distribution, the theory holds water. But if there's say, 4-5 really good WRs, then another 4-5 pretty good WRs, then a jumble of talent in the middle...I'm probably going to have a pretty crappy WR corps.

[lordscarlet]

My team sucks so far -- and I haven't had any time to mess with the lineup or play matrices. Ohwell :)

[Crim]

Hippos looking good in preseason! :)

Nice. [insert smiley of your choice here]

[Vince]

Well it seems that the ratings for this game are a bit more inflated than FOF - a player in the 60's seems like a pretty weak starter, and it looks like you're going to need an 80+ to be a truly good player, just based upon the rosters that we've ended up with in our league.

I've got the league's best QB (99/99 = sexy), but it looks like other than O and D Line, the rest of my team is average at best. My Kicker, Punter and Fullback are exceptionally terrible.

[Vince]

Meh, ntndeacon's got a 99/99 QB also...and his is much younger than mine. No fair :)

[Crim]

Tell ya what, I like the detail available in the game logs. Make me think my roster/playbook decisions will have distinct and sometimes subtle effects on the outcomes of games.

That, plus I'm 1-0 so that's exciting.

[lordscarlet]

Yes, definitely. I am still overwhelmed by all of the information and settings, particularly since I have never dealt with a text sim of any sort before so this is all new to me.

I had a nailbiter in my first regular season game today. 17-13 win, both my TDs coming from the same go on a KR and a PR. I also had a FG block. It seems my special teams are the saving grace of my team. Oh, and one guy with 4 sacks.

[21C]

I have been enjoying this game immensely so far. I took over a team midseason and proceeded to go 4-12 while I got used to the game and its intricacies.

I started making over my roster near the end of the season and replaced a lot of scrubs with higher rated players. It took me a while to look past the overall rating and take a closer look at the important ratings for each position - especially when my RB went down for the season and I found a jewel of a replacement that performed almost as well but had a significantly lower overall rating.

I'm in a league that sims daily and I've been addicted to watching my games play out during my breaks at work. My team turned around its next season to go 12-4 and won its three playoff games to make it to the championship. We play a team that we lost 34-31 earlier in the season so it should be a good contest.

My only problem is that it was too easy to turn my team around. I think that there are only about 6 guys in my league that are reasonably active which lessens the challenge. I would love to be in a league where I knew that most owners were active.

[dbd1963]

There are a couple things that really bug me about the game.

Probably number one is making bids on free agents during the season. If I have an injury in a game that puts a guy out of commission, I can't pick up a FA until AFTER the next game, ensuring that I suffer through one game with a deficit on my roster. This is a huge flaw for me.

Also, the way the roster is run does not please me. When a guy goes out, there's a lot of micromanagement of the rosters, unless I just want to leave everything up to the CPU. The interface for this seems a bit clunky.

Another complaint is the lack of feeling like I have much to do with the game. I'm not sucked in. My team has done well, but I don't really care about it. If there was an option to quit the game (I can't find one) I would have already to give someone else a chance to play it. As it is, I feel like I have to keep going or I'll be ruining the experience for everyone else in my league.

GLB is no kind of NFL-like simulation, but at least I'm interested, feel involved, and having fun.

I can't wait for DDS Pro Football..

[rjolley]

I agree with your first point. I don't like the way the FAs are handled after injury, but I counter that by being sure I have a good backup at every position, whether that player is listed at that position or not. I was decimated by injuries and salary cap problems 2 seasons ago and was able to field a competitive team by having players play out of position based on their strength in areas that were key. I had a couple of safeties that were excellent backup LBs, for instance.

The second point I partially agree with. While the interface could be improved, I don't think it's terrible as-is. Being able to set a player to a position across all lineups fixes the problem when a player is injured 95% of the time for me.

Not sure what to say about the third. I feel about connected to my team as I do any other text-based game. I know who my good players are, I know what to expect out of them, and I'm a bit sad when it's time for them to retire.

As for GLB, it's fun, I'm enjoying playing on a FOFC team, but if it wasn't for that, I don't know that I'd still be playing. I've been playing DeepRoute for a few months now and I still enjoy following my squads.

[Thomkal]

For those interested, Deep Route has now gone "live" and is free to play

[21C]

They have mentioned the chance of offering private leagues but don't have that option yet. I think an FOFC league would be great.

[lordscarlet]

Has anyone continued to play this? Any thoughts? I am not a sim expert, so I was hoping I could get a read from one of you guys that play FOF regularly.

[gstelmack]

I found the interface to do anything way too cumbersome and left the beta after about 3 days...

[lordscarlet]

This is what happens when developers design UIs. :)

[rjolley]

I'm still playing, was part of the beta.

I check in for a few minutes each day to see how the team is doing and sign players. It has been enjoyable, for the most part. Like the beta version better because I had more options for my playbook, but overall, I'm still having fun.

[21C]

I'm still playing. I don't use the coaching/playbook options but basically use the roster options to sign players and set the depth chart. I'm now into my 5th season and really enjoy watching my players develop. The game AI in the pbp is pretty solid but I haven't tweaked any of the settings.

I consider myself a lite user but the game allows you to adjust a lot of your playbook and game play settings if you are into that.

[dbd1963]

I got my team in the superbowl and nearly won it, but the interface drove me away. I hate the interface.

[Icy]

I found the interface to do anything way too cumbersome and left the beta after about 3 days...

Ditto, but i was faster, left it after 1 day.

[lordscarlet]

So those that are still playing, how would you compare it to the desktop text sims?

[21C]

Thought I'd give this game another bump. I've been playing it pretty solidly for nearly nine months and still enjoying it a lot.

What has particularly impressed me has been the response of the game's developer, Mike Wallace. I have contacted him several times over the last month with minor game issues and suggestions and he has gotten back to me within a day each time.

[rjolley]

I'm still playing as well. I enjoy trying to build a team that works with the way I like to play. I've had a WR have 1900+ yards receiving one year, and RBs on both of my team go over 2000 yards rushing. They were, however, the focus of their teams. The WR was fully maxed out and we threw to him often. The RBs were workhorses.

In the season that just ended, my squad went 14-2 and lost in the conference championship game to a team that went 16-0. Didn't help that we lost our starting QB in the playoff game the previous week.

Overall, it's a good game that Mike is still working to improve.

[billgulch]

Hello! This is Mike Wallace. I developed the online football simulation at http://DeepRoute.com (http://deeproute.com/), and would like to thank those that have already tried out the game. While I realize the game may not be for everyone, I feel many willing players exist that simply do not know about the game. Moreover, I may have previous players that may be willing to return now that the game is out of beta testing. It's obvious by reading this forum that many of you share my enthusiasm for realistic sports games, and I would love to have as many of you as possible as players. For this reason, I would like to extend a special offer to everyone here, but would first like to give you guys a quick background about the game and myself.

After making a hard financial decision to forgo "real employment" for a while to concentrate on my passion of sports gaming, I decided to create an online football game. From the "I want to play with blinders on" player to the "I want so much detail my head will explode" player, I wanted it to have everything. Most importantly, I wanted to offer a pure simulation of professional football that played realistically. My goals were not easy to achieve, as I spent 2 years developing the game before I opened it to the public.

Although there is still work to do (anyone that has written something like this can tell you it never ends...), I believe I have succeeded in creating a realistic and accurate simulation. I am especially proud of the end-of-game AI. Spikes.. timeout logic.. out routes when you have no time outs and are trying to score late.. kneels.. no huddle and hurry up offenses... running the clock down for a last second field goal attempts... running instead of passing (and vice versa)... I believe our game is especially solid in this area, and would welcome comparisons to any simulation available in terms of realistic playcalling in this area.

As for me : I'm just a simple developer trying to make ends meet. I have been operating the horse racing game at http://SimulatedSports.com (http://simulatedsports.com/) for over 10 years now, but have decided to "make a go" at this as an actual profession. I have been programming for 25 years, have a BA in mathematics, and contract in actuarial departments for insurance companies when I need "real cash." :banghead: A friend of mine, Larry Abner (father of Bill Abner, blogwriter at The Nut and the Feisty Weasel (http://nutweasel.blogspot.com/) and general simulated sports aficionado), helps with answering questions around the site from time to time and is my sounding board for AI issues. Otherwise, I'm pretty much a one man show (I wrote and run the games, answer the e-mails, promote, fix run the servers, clean up the Diet Dr. Pepper cans.. you get the idea).

Our community is still very small. I am doing everything I can to grow it, but promotion is definitely not my strong suit. Moreover, I realize that people don't stick around sites when the community is quiet. All I ask is that you give it a shot. There are several league types available, ranging anywhere from realistic in terms of contract negotiations with full injuries, to leagues without caps and no injuries). You can play for free, but there are some pay options. I'm willing to offer anyone that mentions this post by contacting me at the "Contact Us" link at the top of our pages before March 31st, 2009 $10 worth of free credits to the game; just make sure you tell me your user name. If you leave, please let me know why. Gameplay? Interfaces? Too simple? Too complex? Just not into it? I'm willing to add anything within reason to the game, and want to continue expanding the project.. I just need feedback. Also, if there's any interest, I'll even set you guys up a private 16 or 32 team league so you can play against the folks you know. I just want some solid, like-minded stat lovers. ;)

Realistic simulations are few and far between, and it's hard for text simulations to gain any traction. Devoted players like the ones here allow developers like me the opportunity to write games like these. So, even if it's not your thing, please mention my game to anyone you think may enjoy it. Again, I am a small time developer, and have worked tirelessly on the project. I want this project to succeed and, as previously mentioned in this thread, I still work hard to address and correct even the smallest of issues.

Thank you for your time. I hope to serve some of you soon!

--Mike

[gstelmack]

Since many of us complained about the UI above, how has that improved over the last 4 months or so?

[billgulch]

I didn't mention it, but this is the first time I've visited these boards. In other words, I wasn't previously aware that interface problems were an ongoing issue. I will happily address them if you can explain the interfaces you dislike and, preferably, give me some feedback on how your experience could be improved. :)

[gstelmack]

I'll go poke around in it again. I tried the beta back a while ago, and the interface was very difficult to figure out how to do much. Just too much effort to even participate in it as a beta, very cumbersome. I need to poke around in it again to give specifics. Lots of jumping around between screens to do even simple things if I remember correctly.

[lordscarlet]

I would love to try it again, especially if there was an "FOFC League."

[lordscarlet]

I'll go poke around in it again. I tried the beta back a while ago, and the interface was very difficult to figure out how to do much. Just too much effort to even participate in it as a beta, very cumbersome. I need to poke around in it again to give specifics. Lots of jumping around between screens to do even simple things if I remember correctly.

Agreed. I don't remember specifics, but I know it was a pain. There was definitely a "simple" or "very difficult." I remember a huge barrier to ease into detailed modifications. You couldn't just modify one minor thing -- if you started to tweak things you had to be responsible for every minor detail (if I remember correctly).

[gstelmack]

Okay, I don't have a team right now, but the front page once I logged in reminded me. Most of my issues had to do with figuring out which screens allowed me to do which things, and not having easy access to jump to whatever I wanted. I kept having to flip to different "views" of my team to take different actions, such as getting my roster set, checking out standings, and looking at my last game. And it was difficult to figure out which path I needed to take to get to the screen I wanted. At the very least the main menu bar at the top needed more options to jump straight to places, but more likely we needed a cleaner "main" screen for the team that we could always drill back to. Seemed like maybe there were 2 or 3 "main" screens for the team, and you had to know which one parented whatever action you wanted to take? And most actions seemed to want to involve more than one screen, which were often under different parents.

I'm dredging this up from memory, so I hope it makes some sense. But it was a mix of not knowing where the info/data/action was that I wanted combined with it requiring several clicks to get there if I did know where it was. And it happened with most actions, which made the game more work than fun.

[wade moore]

I'm very busy the next few days, but I'll login in again as soon as I can.

Much like gstelmack and lordscarlet it's hard to just nutshell it because it really seemed to be a more overarching issue.

Just from memory:

a) The general aesthetics were not pleasing. Now, many will say the same can be said of FOF and other text sims. I can get past this if the navigation is solid.

b) I remember on numerous occasions wanting to "do something" and just plain not being able to figure out how to do it. I'd click around 5 different places, think I had it, and just couldn't find it.

c) The things I could find often seemed "cumbersome". This is one I really need to look at to provide more detail, but I remember feeling like just getting my team going on a basic level running how I want would take hours on the screens. I like a good level of detail, so I'm thinking it was more of how you had to input that detail - but honestly this is where my memory is going to fail me.

[lordscarlet]

ok, my first complaint:

ERROR : User name must be between 2-10 characters long

Really? In 2009 you can only have a 10 character username??

[lordscarlet]

dola: figured out why I couldn't login with my old username, though... it had to be 9 characters. :)

[lordscarlet]

This is minor, and nothing related to gameplay, but if you're going to have a "blog", it should have an RSS or Atom feed.

[rjolley]

If there's an FOFC league, sign me up.

[Thomkal]

Hello! This is Mike Wallace. I developed the online football simulation at http://DeepRoute.com (http://deeproute.com/), and would like to thank those that have already tried out the game. While I realize the game may not be for everyone, I feel many willing players exist that simply do not know about the game. Moreover, I may have previous players that may be willing to return now that the game is out of beta testing. It's obvious by reading this forum that many of you share my enthusiasm for realistic sports games, and I would love to have as many of you as possible as players. For this reason, I would like to extend a special offer to everyone here, but would first like to give you guys a quick background about the game and myself.

After making a hard financial decision to forgo "real employment" for a while to concentrate on my passion of sports gaming, I decided to create an online football game. From the "I want to play with blinders on" player to the "I want so much detail my head will explode" player, I wanted it to have everything. Most importantly, I wanted to offer a pure simulation of professional football that played realistically. My goals were not easy to achieve, as I spent 2 years developing the game before I opened it to the public.

Although there is still work to do (anyone that has written something like this can tell you it never ends...), I believe I have succeeded in creating a realistic and accurate simulation. I am especially proud of the end-of-game AI. Spikes.. timeout logic.. out routes when you have no time outs and are trying to score late.. kneels.. no huddle and hurry up offenses... running the clock down for a last second field goal attempts... running instead of passing (and vice versa)... I believe our game is especially solid in this area, and would welcome comparisons to any simulation available in terms of realistic playcalling in this area.

As for me : I'm just a simple developer trying to make ends meet. I have been operating the horse racing game at http://SimulatedSports.com (http://simulatedsports.com/) for over 10 years now, but have decided to "make a go" at this as an actual profession. I have been programming for 25 years, have a BA in mathematics, and contract in actuarial departments for insurance companies when I need "real cash." :banghead: A friend of mine, Larry Abner (father of Bill Abner, blogwriter at The Nut and the Feisty Weasel (http://nutweasel.blogspot.com/) and general simulated sports aficionado), helps with answering questions around the site from time to time and is my sounding board for AI issues. Otherwise, I'm pretty much a one man show (I wrote and run the games, answer the e-mails, promote, fix run the servers, clean up the Diet Dr. Pepper cans.. you get the idea).

Our community is still very small. I am doing everything I can to grow it, but promotion is definitely not my strong suit. Moreover, I realize that people don't stick around sites when the community is quiet. All I ask is that you give it a shot. There are several league types available, ranging anywhere from realistic in terms of contract negotiations with full injuries, to leagues without caps and no injuries). You can play for free, but there are some pay options. I'm willing to offer anyone that mentions this post by contacting me at the "Contact Us" link at the top of our pages before March 31st, 2009 $10 worth of free credits to the game; just make sure you tell me your user name. If you leave, please let me know why. Gameplay? Interfaces? Too simple? Too complex? Just not into it? I'm willing to add anything within reason to the game, and want to continue expanding the project.. I just need feedback. Also, if there's any interest, I'll even set you guys up a private 16 or 32 team league so you can play against the folks you know. I just want some solid, like-minded stat lovers. ;)

Realistic simulations are few and far between, and it's hard for text simulations to gain any traction. Devoted players like the ones here allow developers like me the opportunity to write games like these. So, even if it's not your thing, please mention my game to anyone you think may enjoy it. Again, I am a small time developer, and have worked tirelessly on the project. I want this project to succeed and, as previously mentioned in this thread, I still work hard to address and correct even the smallest of issues.

Thank you for your time. I hope to serve some of you soon!

--Mike

Hey Mike!

Glad to see you here-Legions from your horse racing game. As I've mentioned before on these boards, I've played his horseracing game, practically non-stop for nine years now. How many games can you say you've played that long? If you haven't checked out his games, you owe it to yourself to check them out, even if you aren't interested/have that much knowledge of horse racing. I didn't when I started but got used to things pretty quickly. Be glad to help anyone here with the horseracing game.

[billgulch]

Just a few notes :

- I now allow user names up to 20 characters
- Since the beta, I have added several "less detailed" screens that allow you the ability to more easily modify the way your team plays. These can be used in conjunction with the more complicated playbooks. Could anyone tell me if this helped control your team?

- I will spend the morning considering a new approach to the "pathway" to areas, and attempt to group them better

- I will look to add an RSS feed soon

A few more things, if you guys would allow :

Are the aesthetics really that awful? Can you pinpoint precise things about the design that bother you? I'm no designer.. I never have been , and I never will be (I think I even explained this to lordscarlet in an e-mail exchange). If they are truly driving people away, I will pay someone to overhaul it. Again, I'm a small, financially strapped operation, and such a decision is a hard one for me to make unless I believe it will truly help. But if it's really a problem, I want it fixed.

Any precise detail you can guys can offer would be greatly, greatly appreciated. I have heard the site is hard to navigate.. clunky.. etc, and will try to work toward fixing that today. But, again, I'm no designer. And, without more specifics, I'm afraid I may simply make things worse. :lol:


If you guys can find at least 10-12 people, I will happily open a FOFC league, and you guys can grill the thing together. :) Again, I have worked tirelessly to make the actual simulation portion of the game a good one, and am willing to work equally hard to attract and keep people that will allow it to grow. I have read in several areas on this board that there are "no recently released simulations" to play, and that people are dying for a new product. I believe the guts of my game to be very solid, and believe it can fill the void that currently exists in the market; I simply need to know what it is that is keeping folks from trying the game and, once they are there, sticking around.

Thanks again,

--Mike

PS - Hey Legions! I'm targeting some horse racing fixes as well. I think the HR game is needs a better navigation system worse than the football game, so I've got my work cut out for me over the next year or two... :( Can't wait for that new viewer to get going!

[wade moore]

This community, as a general rule, is supportive of developers that come here with an open mind seeking feedback. We are brutally honest, which I guess can be a good and bad thing ;).

Like I said - crazy weekend for me, so I may not get to do much until during the week this week, but I'll definitely give you feedback. I'd be up for an FOFC league for sure.

[gstelmack]

If you created an FOFC league, I'm sure you could get 10-12 folks who would be happy to give it a whirl and provide that honest feedback Wade is talking about. I'm in as well. I'll create a separate thread to track who is interested just so it's easier to collect the folks for that league.

My only issue with aesthetics is just how busy it all is. You eat up screen real estate with all the ads (and I certainly understand their importance and am not requesting they go), and then try to cram lots of other stuff onto the screen. It's just busy and hard to follow at a glance, your eye is not drawn immediately to the important stuff on the screen. That did not get in the way of me playing though.

[lordscarlet]

Just a few notes :

- I now allow user names up to 20 characters



Any chnace I could get an "e" added to "lordscrlt"? :)

- Since the beta, I have added several "less detailed" screens that allow you the ability to more easily modify the way your team plays. These can be used in conjunction with the more complicated playbooks. Could anyone tell me if this helped control your team?

- I will spend the morning considering a new approach to the "pathway" to areas, and attempt to group them better

- I will look to add an RSS feed soon


Awesome -- on team control, I'll have to actually start a team to try it out again.


A few more things, if you guys would allow :

Are the aesthetics really that awful? Can you pinpoint precise things about the design that bother you? I'm no designer.. I never have been , and I never will be (I think I even explained this to lordscarlet in an e-mail exchange). If they are truly driving people away, I will pay someone to overhaul it. Again, I'm a small, financially strapped operation, and such a decision is a hard one for me to make unless I believe it will truly help. But if it's really a problem, I want it fixed.

Any precise detail you can guys can offer would be greatly, greatly appreciated. I have heard the site is hard to navigate.. clunky.. etc, and will try to work toward fixing that today. But, again, I'm no designer. And, without more specifics, I'm afraid I may simply make things worse. :lol:


I didn't mention aesthetcis because we had that conversation -- I'm amazed you remembered it. :) Personally I place a lot of importance on the aesthetics, but I can't say tahat I have any emperical evideince to back it up besides people saying "I went to the site and left when I saw what it looked like." I think there are possibly (from someone that hasn't played in quite some time) two issues here. One is the UI. The other is the aesthetics. If you can fix the UI the aesthetics won't be as important, but I still think they're important. I think a polished porduct will bring more casual users, but that's is just a theory that I have not been able to test.

Sorry I disappeared after that conversation. :( I won't do it this time. :)



If you guys can find at least 10-12 people, I will happily open a FOFC league, and you guys can grill the thing together. :) Again, I have worked tirelessly to make the actual simulation portion of the game a good one, and am willing to work equally hard to attract and keep people that will allow it to grow. I have read in several areas on this board that there are "no recently released simulations" to play, and that people are dying for a new product. I believe the guts of my game to be very solid, and believe it can fill the void that currently exists in the market; I simply need to know what it is that is keeping folks from trying the game and, once they are there, sticking around.



I would definitely be in -- I'll write in the other thread as well.

[billgulch]

I'll try to catch up with a little of everything :

I've been running simulations online for 10+ years now, so brutally honest is more than appreciated (and a major upgrade in terms of kindness than a lot of things I have had to deal with). :p

"Busy" page response:

I created the page originally to fit to an 800 wide display (with the ads or non-relevant information "spilling over" if necessary). This seems to be the common theme among larger sites (google.. msnbc.. cnn.. etc), but that may be an apples-to-oranges comparision. Is it worth working around the self-imposed 800 wide display limit, or is 1024+ more realistic nowadays?

Lordscarlet :

I changed your actual name to "lordscarlet" on the site (you may have to log out and back in). I can back it down to "lordscrlet" if you want.

I also went ahead and credited you with the 1000 credits so you can get going on messing around with different option levels.

..and one area I do realize I am weak on is documentation. I will see what I can do to better explain some of the most common questions (though it may be better for me to wait until I rethink the navigation system).

Thank you guys. I appreciate the willingness to help. I can hook anyone that already has a team up to have more than one. So there's no reason for anyone to give up a current team to join the new league. And you guys can have up to 32 teams... so there's no reason hold anyone out. :)

--Mike

[lordscarlet]

I'll try to catch up with a little of everything :

I've been running simulations online for 10+ years now, so brutally honest is more than appreciated (and a major upgrade in terms of kindness than a lot of things I have had to deal with). :p

"Busy" page response:

I created the page originally to fit to an 800 wide display (with the ads or non-relevant information "spilling over" if necessary). This seems to be the common theme among larger sites (google.. msnbc.. cnn.. etc), but that may be an apples-to-oranges comparision. Is it worth working around the self-imposed 800 wide display limit, or is 1024+ more realistic nowadays?

Lordscarlet :

I changed your actual name to "lordscarlet" on the site (you may have to log out and back in). I can back it down to "lordscrlet" if you want.

I also went ahead and credited you with the 1000 credits so you can get going on messing around with different option levels.

..and one area I do realize I am weak on is documentation. I will see what I can do to better explain some of the most common questions (though it may be better for me to wait until I rethink the navigation system).

Thank you guys. I appreciate the willingness to help. I can hook anyone that already has a team up to have more than one. So there's no reason for anyone to give up a current team to join the new league. And you guys can have up to 32 teams... so there's no reason hold anyone out. :)

--Mike

Have you thought about going the wiki route with documentation? I know a lot of technical sites have gone this route (such as ruby on rails) and I know some games, such as Ikariam (WikIkariam: Main Page (http://ikariam.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page)) have the same thing. You can obviously do all of the documenting, but the community can help as well. Just a suggestion -- I am terrible with documentation myself.

on the account name, yeah, a full "lordscarlet" is what I was hoping for. Thanks, man! :)

As for the display width, I would go by what your statistics tell you. Are you keeping any sort of analytics or other viewing data? That should tell you what width people are capable of. And as to what sites to compare to -- I would go with sites with similar audience/functionality. Other web-based games, other sports sites, etc. I don't think many of them are limiting to 800px these days, but I would have to research it to say for sure.

[fantom1979]

I understand the thought process here. I have a php/mysql website for fantasy football, that all of ten people go to. Every single page that I make, I worry about what resolution the other nine guys are viewing the page with. I can only imagine what it would be like with 500 or 1000 or 10000 people visiting your site.

[Thomkal]

PS - Hey Legions! I'm targeting some horse racing fixes as well. I think the HR game is needs a better navigation system worse than the football game, so I've got my work cut out for me over the next year or two... :( Can't wait for that new viewer to get going!

Yeah Mike the horse racing sim does need a better navigation system. I'm used to it after all these years, but there's a whole lot of clicking going on to get everything done each week. I'm excited to see the new changes coming to the sim that you mentioned on the site. There's probably going to be a lot of grumbling because people are used to the way the sim works now, and it sounds like some pretty big changes are in store, but in the end I'm sure it will be a better product. You've probably heard me mention this before ( :) ) but I'm hoping you will do something about the jockey utility so we don't have to go in and set them up every week, because its the only real boring part of the sim for me. And yes that viewer is a lot better than the current one-sorry had to be honest there lol! Oh and while I have you here, can you activate the sire stats for the new 2 yo sires, so I can see which ones I want to breed with please? Thanks :D

[21C]

Just wanted to give another shout out to this game.

The original developer, Mike (billgulch), has passed on development to another user, Nathan (notque), who has been quite active in getting stuff done. He has made numerous improvements and is very responsive to requests. It sounds like there is still a lot for him to do but he continues to tweak the game engine, player ratings and the user interface.

It may not be to everyone's liking but I've still been getting my daily fix for the last couple of years.

DeepRoute.com - Virtual Online Football League / Free Football Game (http://deeproute.com/deeproute/)