Why do we hate the French?

[path12]

I've been rereading A Distant Mirror and March of Folly by Barbara Tuchman recently, and it got me thinking about this.

My recollection is that we've always thought of the French as somewhat rude, but that the real French bashing started around the buildup to the war when they were skeptical in the UN resolution process (Freedom fries, etc).

But now, there is a majority in this country who think that we shouldn't have gone into Iraq, so in a sense France was proved right to be skeptical. Yet they are still an easy laugh.

I like French fries, kisses, bread, wine, and the spoken language even though I don't speak it is very nice to listen to. It's fun to play the French league in FM.

So I'm genuinely curious. Why do we hate the French?

[Desnudo]

I would guess it goes back to our roots as an anglo country. The English hate the French too.

[spleen1015]

Because they hate us.

[st.cronin]

I'm with Desnudo. Its definitely not just an Iraq thing. Remember Libya?

[Cuckoo]

Because they fart in our general direction.

[path12]

I'm with Desnudo. Its definitely not just an Iraq thing. Remember Libya?

No, not really. Did they support Khaddafi in some way?

I can totally see the argument that it goes back to our anglo roots, and I don't mean it to just sound like I think it's just Iraq -- I only even mention Iraq because my feeling is that the dislike for France ratcheted up around that time and has stayed at an elevated level since.

[path12]

Because they fart in our general direction.

Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!

[bulletsponge]

ive always disliked the french, long before the iraq war was even thought up.

[gstelmack]

No, not really. Did they support Khaddafi in some way?

When we bombed Lybia back in the early 80s (83?) in retaliation for the Pan Am bombing over Lockerbie, France refused to let our planes fly through their airspace EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE FIGHTING LYBIA IN CHAD AT THE TIME!

[path12]

When we bombed Lybia back in the early 80s (83?) in retaliation for the Pan Am bombing over Lockerbie, France refused to let our planes fly through their airspace EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE FIGHTING LYBIA IN CHAD AT THE TIME!

Interesting. I had forgotten about that. Looking it up on Wiki though it says that Spain denied us use of their airspace also, and yet we don't seem to have any irritation towards them.

Besides, is that outweighed by the French help in the Revolutionary War?

[JonInMiddleGA]

What part of "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" don't you understand?

[path12]

What part of "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" don't you understand?

You don't like cheese? ;)

[tanglewood]

It is a relatively recent phenomenom, not sure when exactly it became fashionable in the US to dislike France. They were your allies in the revolution, without their assistance independence would have been virtually impossible, and for many years afterward when Britain was still America's biggest adversary in the region. Also, much of the US constitution and bill of rights was based on French political theory. All of the founding fathers, especially Jefferson and Paine, were heavily influenced by French Revolutionary politics and philosophy. Even as recent as the 1920s and 30s Paris was the place to be for American writers, jazz musicans and intellectuals. Plus they sold you half of your country in the Lousiana purchase and gifted the Statue of Liberty.

I expect that it all started going awry under De Gaulle. His decision to devolp an independent nuclear deterant and his insistence on not assisting the US in Vietnam seems to have soured things for the first time. More recently of the big three EU nations, France is the one which is most invested in the idea of the EU providing a couterweight to the US, and not just economically but also diplomatically. For Germany and the UK the EU is soley about economic and social co-operation for the betterment of Europe.

[Schmidty]

ive always disliked the french, long before the iraq war was even thought up.

How can you hate "the french" without being xenophobic? It's one thing to hate the country of France, but to say that you hate "the french" and lump all of those individuals into one target of contempt and hatred is unintelligent at best.

[Sgran]

Americans don't hate the French. They (like most people around the world) take potshots at other cultures when it's convenient. It's easy to make fun of the French because they're distinct and most people are able to interpret jokes made about them. When they refused to play ball with Bush the right wing whipped up a bunch of jokes that most people could understand and many people (not everyone, i assure you) had a nasty chortle. The whole "freedom fries" bit will go down in history as one of the most absurd flaunting of ignorance the world has ever seen (in case you don't know, the French do not call them "French fries"). It's always easy to band together and blame someone else. It's a way to unite insecure people.

[path12]

I expect that it all started going awry under De Gaulle. His decision to devolp an independent nuclear deterant and his insistence on not assisting the US in Vietnam seems to have soured things for the first time. More recently of the big three EU nations, France is the one which is most invested in the idea of the EU providing a couterweight to the US, and not just economically but also diplomatically. For Germany and the UK the EU is soley about economic and social co-operation for the betterment of Europe.

One of the examples used in The March of Folly is regarding Vietnam. I haven't got to that point yet, and since I last read this book over 15 years ago I don't remember exactly, but I seem to recall that US involvement came about after the French were driven out by the Communist revolution, so that makes a lot of sense for a turning point, though I have to admit that I've never heard of that being mentioned against them.

[bulletsponge]

How can you hate "the french" without being xenophobic? It's one thing to hate the country of France, but to say that you hate "the french" and lump all of those individuals into one target of contempt and hatred is unintelligent at best.

hmm im pretty sure i didnt say i hated the french. i save my hatred for evil people and acts. the french are just weasels

[Buccaneer]

path12, both are excellent reads. Well done!

[Rizon]

It all started when this happened:

France: "Hey, we're going to fight in Vietnam!"
US: "Aight den, we got yo backs"
France: "Ok, we're here!"
US: "Sike!"

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Some may say that the French have an inordinately high opinion of themselves that is rather undeserving.

However, back in my teens, Catherine Deneuve always managed to sway me in the direction of a positive attitude towards France. Laetitia Casta has helped foster that attitude over the years.

And how about a little bond girl menage a trois with Claudine Auger (via time travel) and Eva Green. These kinds of thoughts always leaves me feeling, well, quite pleased with the French.

[hukarez]

?

http://www.areavoices.com/wrestling/images/thumbnail/rick_martel1.jpg

[JPhillips]

Jerry Lewis.

[Ryan S]

It seems like the Americans are not alone according to a column in the Telegraph a few years back.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>Language, history, cooking and support for rival football teams still divide Europe. But when everything else fails, one glue binds the continent together: hatred of the French.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, Britons described them as "chauvinists, stubborn, nannied and humourless". However, the French may be more shocked by the views of other nations.

For the Germans, the French are "pretentious, offhand and frivolous". The Dutch describe them as "agitated, talkative and shallow." The Spanish see them as "cold, distant, vain and impolite" and the Portuguese as "preaching". In Italy they comes across as "snobs, arrogant, flesh-loving, righteous and self-obsessed" and the Greeks find them "not very with it, egocentric bons vivants".

Interestingly, the Swedes consider them "disobedient, immoral, disorganised, neo-colonialist and dirty".

But the knockout punch to French pride came in the way the poll was conducted. People were not asked what they hated in the French, just what they thought of them.

"Interviewees were simply asked an open question - what five adjectives sum up the French," said Olivier Clodong, one of the study's two authors and a professor of social and political communication at the Ecole Superieur de Commerce, in Paris. "The answers were overwhelmingly negative."

According to Mr Clodong, the old adage that France is wonderful, it's just the French who are the problem, is shared across Europe.
"We are admired for our trains, the Airbus and Michelin tyres. But the buck stops there," he said.

Another section of the study deals with how the French see the rest of Europe.

"Believe it or not, the English and the French use almost exactly the same adjectives to describe each other - bar the word 'insular'," Mr Coldong said. "So the feelings are mutual."


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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[M GO BLUE!!!]

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[EagleFan]

The French are jealous that they are not a super power in the world, or much of a power for that matter, and it comes across in their attitude towards us. Add their seemingly natural arrogance and that just fuels our disdain for them.

This is not to say that all French are that way but it is the way the country as a whole comes across.

I don;t hate them, but I do laugh at their arrogance. I save my hate for people who deserve it like animals who feel it's their "duty" to strap a bomb on themsevles and blow up a group of innocent people.

[MrBug708]

Americans don't hate the French. They (like most people around the world) take potshots at other cultures when it's convenient. It's easy to make fun of the French because they're distinct and most people are able to interpret jokes made about them. When they refused to play ball with Bush the right wing whipped up a bunch of jokes that most people could understand and many people (not everyone, i assure you) had a nasty chortle. The whole "freedom fries" bit will go down in history as one of the most absurd flaunting of ignorance the world has ever seen (in case you don't know, the French do not call them "French fries"). It's always easy to band together and blame someone else. It's a way to unite insecure people.

lol. This made me laugh, good job.

[Bubba Wheels]

It all started when this happened:

France: "Hey, we're going to fight in Vietnam!"
US: "Aight den, we got yo backs"
France: "Ok, we're here!"
US: "Sike!"

Ho Chi Min surrounded the French at Dien Ben Phu in the north. French requested U.S. air support to break out. This was late 50s. One Lyndon Baines Johnson, Sen. Tex., was the lead voice in denying this support. The French lost in a humiliating defeat, their artillary commander committing suicide. French pulled out of Vietnam, and guess who stepped in to stem the communists?

In the late 60s, in an eerily familiar situation, U.S. troops were surrounded and attacked round-the-clock in a place called Ka-Sahn. (I know, my spelling sucks!) President Johnson would spend all night staring at a 3-d mock-up of the fire base in question. This time, air power did save the day.

Also in the 50s, France and Britain teamed up to invade and occupy the Suez Canal. Eisenhower told them to 'vacate immediately' or some sort of severe penalty was going to be put in place. They did vacate. Just a couple of interesting historical interactions between our countries following WW2.

[Hammer]

I don't think the English particularly hate the French any more. We have bigger problems than petty bickering these days.

Off the top of my head the 2 issues that come to mind are that they banned Brittish beef a few years back - don't blame them under the circumstances.

The other recent main issue was that they supplied the Argentinians with missles prior (some have said during) the Fauklands war, 1982 IIRC. It may well be that they did everything they could for us once it all kicked off though.

Nott reveals that France and President Mitterand "were in many ways (Britain's) greatest allies". The most formidable weapon in Argentina's arsenal was the French built Super Etendard strike aircraft and Exocet missile which sank some British ships. Nott writes: "As soon as the conflict began Hernou (French Defence Minister) got in touch with me to make available a Super-Etendard and Mirage aircraft so our Harrier pilots could train against them before setting off to the South Atlantic. The French supplied detailed technical information on the Exocet, showing us how to tamper with the missiles.

France is actually quite a powerful country these days. They have a fairly impressive nuclear arsenal by non-American or Russian standards.

[MrBigglesworth]

I think it's a natural case of two egos colliding. The French have a stereotype of being pretentious, and Americans feel like we have the best everything in the world and f you if you think your stuff might be pretty good, you hippie communist surrender monkey.

[st.cronin]

I don't hate the French. I just hate every person from France I've ever met.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

My little "Fuck you, France!" is every time I go to the store and get a loaf of "Freedom" bread, I order the checkout girl to bend it in half so the bread fits in the bag. As she bends it, I hum the battle hymn of the republic.

[Dutch]

I think it's a natural case of two egos colliding. The Americans have a stereotype of being pretentious, and the French feel like they have the best everything in the world and f you if you think your stuff might be pretty good, you capitalist pig.

Fairly interchangeable, I might add. :)

I think the French/American rivalry has it's roots firmly in economics. America has been #1 since the end of WWII and the French are trying everything in their power to get back to #1 (joining with Germany to create the European Union goes a long way to show just how serious they are.)

But all things being equal, I much prefer this economic rivalry to the military one we 'enjoyed' with the Soviets.

[Dutch]

The other recent main issue was that they supplied the Argentinians with missles prior (some have said during) the Fauklands war, 1982 IIRC. It may well be that they did everything they could for us once it all kicked off though.


Oh, and then there's this stuff. Seems like France goes out of it's way to be on the losing side of military conflicts.

[gstelmack]

They were your allies in the revolution, without their assistance independence would have been virtually impossible, and for many years afterward when Britain was still America's biggest adversary in the region. Also, much of the US constitution and bill of rights was based on French political theory. All of the founding fathers, especially Jefferson and Paine, were heavily influenced by French Revolutionary politics and philosophy. Even as recent as the 1920s and 30s Paris was the place to be for American writers, jazz musicans and intellectuals. Plus they sold you half of your country in the Lousiana purchase and gifted the Statue of Liberty.

I expect that it all started going awry under De Gaulle. His decision to devolp an independent nuclear deterant and his insistence on not assisting the US in Vietnam seems to have soured things for the first time. More recently of the big three EU nations, France is the one which is most invested in the idea of the EU providing a couterweight to the US, and not just economically but also diplomatically. For Germany and the UK the EU is soley about economic and social co-operation for the betterment of Europe.

My response to the "we owe the French for the Revolution" has been
"we paid them back in WWI, and the interest in WWII". I think Vietnam has some to do with it, but the reality is probably that the French are arrogant, we Americans are arrogant, and the two don't mix.

As for Iraq, the differences there were far more about economics (as usual in a war): the French and Russians were making money off Hussein and didn't want him out.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Oh, and then there's this stuff. Seems like France goes out of it's way to be on the losing side of military conflicts.

Ironically, the french have overwhelmingly chosen the Detroit Lions to win the next Super Bowl.

[Tyrith]

Really haven't ever had a desire to like a nation that worships Charles de Gaulle as a national savior.

[Mac Howard]

It's not just the Americans and English that have problems with the French.

Years ago, around about 1980, I was the Techical Manager in the European sales office of a Californian electronics company. I had to visit the component procurement centre for IBM in Paris promoting our products for inclusion in IBM mainframes. I spent the afternoon discussing the technical merits of the products with two engineers, one French one German, while the sales team discussed pricing and delivery. The French engineer was difficult, to say the least, making much of technical problems that were at best unimportant and at worst irrelevant. It was a difficult afternoon.

At the end of the meeting, when we were saying our goodbyes, the German engineer took me aside and apologised for the antagonistic attitude of his colleague and quipped with a wink "Well, he's French!"

[path12]

My little "Fuck you, France!" is every time I go to the store and get a loaf of "Freedom" bread, I order the checkout girl to bend it in half so the bread fits in the bag. As she bends it, I hum the battle hymn of the republic.

OK, I LOL'd at this.

[MrBigglesworth]

The French and the Germans have fought for years, similar to the French and the English. They've fought against each other in at least three wars in the past 150 years, I imagine there will always be a little animosity from that.

[path12]

path12, both are excellent reads. Well done!

I think Tuchman is probably my favorite historian to read. She tells a story completely yet simply, and her own thoughts that are thrown in are timely and wise. I still need to read the one about Stillwell in China, but have read all the others at least once. A Distant Mirror has to be in my Mount Rushmore of history books.

[path12]

I was telling Ms. Path about this whole subject and thread today and her response to the entire question was immediate: "Well, they hate us too, you know." Ms. Path cracks me up.

[ThunderingHERD]

J'aime la France. Je souhaite souvent que les Américains ressemblent plus les Français.

[DeToxRox]

?

http://www.areavoices.com/wrestling/images/thumbnail/rick_martel1.jpg

Arrogance!

[sterlingice]

J'aime la France. Je souhaite souvent que les Américains ressemblent plus les Français.

(I had to babelfish that)

SI

[Brillig]

(I had to babelfish that)

SI

I didn't :p

You franco-illiterate you. :D

[sterlingice]

I didn't :p

You franco-illiterate you. :D

Hey, while you were taking le wussy French to meet girls and take an easy language in high school or whenever, I was taking Latin and Russian and looks what that's gotten me-- never mind. Ignore that; carry on; nothing to see here (tho to be fair, I met my wife when I was taking Russian).

SI

[Rizon]

I don't think the English particularly hate the French any more. We have bigger problems than petty bickering these days.

Off the top of my head the 2 issues that come to mind are that they banned Brittish beef a few years back - don't blame them under the circumstances.

The other recent main issue was that they supplied the Argentinians with missles prior (some have said during) the Fauklands war, 1982 IIRC. It may well be that they did everything they could for us once it all kicked off though.



France is actually quite a powerful country these days. They have a fairly impressive nuclear arsenal by non-American or Russian standards.

I think there may be only 2 or 3 countries in the entire world France hasn't sold Exocets to.

Some other famous uses: The attack on the USS Stark in 87 and the use of them in the Iraq-Iran war (although to varying degrees of success).

[GoldenEagle]

We hate the French because they play soccer, which is a communist sport.

[Logan]

We hate the French because they gave us Darkiller.

[Brillig]

Hey, while you were taking le wussy French to meet girls and take an easy language in high school or whenever, I was taking Latin and Russian and looks what that's gotten me-- never mind. Ignore that; carry on; nothing to see here (tho to be fair, I met my wife when I was taking Russian).

SI

Arma virumque cano.

[sterlingice]

Arma virumque cano.

The book that we used had a watered down version of the Aeneid in it. Does that count?

SI

[Brillig]

Tidbit from the Chron. European survey shows that Americans aren't as despised as we think, but everyone hates the French :)


They like us - they really like us

Maybe we're not as ugly as we think. In a new poll, nearly two-thirds of American travelers said we're perceived more negatively in other countries than we were five years ago. But another poll commissioned by the same organization found a big surprise: In a survey of 1,500 European hotel managers, Americans were ranked second, behind the Japanese, as the world's best tourists.

In the poll, conducted in April by the online travel site Expedia's German branch, Americans were seen as the most likely to try to speak a foreign language and the most interested in sampling local food.

We came in third, behind the Japanese and British, as the "most polite" tourists, and third, behind the Japanese and Germans, as "best behaved." And - we're sure this has nothing to do with how the hotel managers view us - Americans were ranked far and away as the world's most generous tippers and biggest spenders.

On the other hand, Americans were seen, by an overwhelming margin, as the shabbiest dressers, the most likely to complain and the second noisiest. Who's louder? Only the Italians.

Some of the other findings: Russians were seen as the least polite travelers, followed by the Israelis and French. The stingiest tippers: the Germans, followed by the French and Israelis.

Italians, by far, were ranked as the best dressers, followed by the French and Spanish. In terms of slobby dressing, the British were a distant second to us, followed by the Germans.

Who's the most unwilling to try speaking in a foreign language? The French, the British and the Italians, in that order.

The Chinese are the most reluctant to sample foreign food, followed closely by - this is odd - the British, whose home cuisine is probably the world's most grievously mocked (a little unfairly, perhaps.)

And, finally, the overall award for "worst tourists in the world" goes to the French, with the Indians and Chinese taking home the silver and bronze, respectively.

[Groundhog]

From my experience over here in Australia, Americans are without a doubt the loudest. You can be sitting in one corner of an enormous foodcourt at the biggest shopping centre in Australia, filled with people of all ethnicities speaking every language known to man, yet still you'll be able to hear the voice of the sole tourist from New York sitting in the corner furthest from you.

[Dutch]

From my experience over here in Australia, Americans are without a doubt the loudest. You can be sitting in one corner of an enormous foodcourt at the biggest shopping centre in Australia, filled with people of all ethnicities speaking every language known to man, yet still you'll be able to hear the voice of the sole tourist from New York sitting in the corner furthest from you.

If he's by himself, I'd question his sanity, not his nationality.

[Chief Rum]

From my experience over here in Australia, Americans are without a doubt the loudest. You can be sitting in one corner of an enormous foodcourt at the biggest shopping centre in Australia, filled with people of all ethnicities speaking every language known to man, yet still you'll be able to hear the voice of the sole tourist from New York sitting in the corner furthest from you.

I bolded your explanation here.

[Passacaglia]

It is a relatively recent phenomenom, not sure when exactly it became fashionable in the US to dislike France. They were your allies in the revolution, without their assistance independence would have been virtually impossible, and for many years afterward when Britain was still America's biggest adversary in the region. Also, much of the US constitution and bill of rights was based on French political theory. All of the founding fathers, especially Jefferson and Paine, were heavily influenced by French Revolutionary politics and philosophy. Even as recent as the 1920s and 30s Paris was the place to be for American writers, jazz musicans and intellectuals. Plus they sold you half of your country in the Lousiana purchase and gifted the Statue of Liberty.

I expect that it all started going awry under De Gaulle. His decision to devolp an independent nuclear deterant and his insistence on not assisting the US in Vietnam seems to have soured things for the first time. More recently of the big three EU nations, France is the one which is most invested in the idea of the EU providing a couterweight to the US, and not just economically but also diplomatically. For Germany and the UK the EU is soley about economic and social co-operation for the betterment of Europe.

It's not that recent. The Iraq war gave it some more publicity, but the idea of mocking the French has been around here as long as I've been alive. Sure, they were allies in the revolution, but there was always the hope that France would do more to help us. Then shortly after, the XYZ Affair, I think, left a bad taste in people's mouth, and we were extremely close to a war with France in the 1790's. Then in the civil war, France supported the confederacy (though to a very small extent, IIRC).