Bill Bavasi has the quote of the year

[dawgfan]

I'm not the world's biggest Bill Bavasi fan - his track record on trades, and to a lesser extent free agent signings isn't that great (though his farm system development is pretty good). But he's by all accounts a pretty funny guy who can be very candid when in the right setting, though usually his public comments are very reserved. That's part of the reason I find the following quote from him so funny:

Bill Bavasi, in response to Florida Marlins President David Samson's comments about how ridiculous he thinks the Ichiro contract extension is and how it will "ruin" baseball:

“My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is, ‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all,” Bavasi said Thursday. “So I’m not going to say anything at all. Is my mother the greatest or what?”

[Young Drachma]

I just read that, I thought it was cool too. Especially since it was directed at one of the crooks that runs the Marlins (in the ground..)

[TroyF]

If Samson wants to know who is ruining baseball, he should look in the mirror.

Seattle, win or lose, understands the value of Ichiro to the city of Seattle. On my last visit there, talk radio was filled with dread at him leaving. That city wants Ichiro to stay. And they enjoy him as a ball player.

Good for them.

[path12]

If Samson wants to know who is ruining baseball, he should look in the mirror.

Seattle, win or lose, understands the value of Ichiro to the city of Seattle. On my last visit there, talk radio was filled with dread at him leaving. That city wants Ichiro to stay. And they enjoy him as a ball player.

Good for them.

I'm happier than hell about the extension. I think that a few years from now that contract is going to seem like a bargain.

[sterlingice]

I'm happier than hell about the extension. I think that a few years from now that contract is going to seem like a bargain.

I don't see this "exploding money" that everyone is talking about. This reminds me of the mid 90s where there was big growth for a few years as new stadiums and a new level of tv contract provided a new influx of cash but then things leveled off after that to "normal" growth. Now, we're in the middle of another one of those cycles where baseball is tapping the revenue streams but that's going to level off again.

SI

[ThunderingHERD]

Ichiro is one of the most overrated players in baseball, but it's not necessarily a bad contract as I'm sure he brings in quite a bit of revenue for the Mariners (I'd never say Jeter had a bad contract for the same reasons).

[Chief Rum]

I'm not the world's biggest Bill Bavasi fan - his track record on trades, and to a lesser extent free agent signings isn't that great (though his farm system development is pretty good). But he's by all accounts a pretty funny guy who can be very candid when in the right setting, though usually his public comments are very reserved. That's part of the reason I find the following quote from him so funny:

Bill Bavasi, in response to Florida Marlins President David Samson's comments about how ridiculous he thinks the Ichiro contract extension is and how it will "ruin" baseball:

Apple doesn't fall far from the tree, it seems.

[dawgfan]

Ichiro is one of the most overrated players in baseball...
Ichiro is currently 5th in the majors in Runs Created, and he's one of the premium defensive centerfielders in the game. If anything, I think he's somewhat underrated - so many people think "he's just a singles hitter" and don't really grasp how productive he is. Juan Pierre, Luis Castillo - those are guys that are "just singles hitters".

[rowech]

Ichiro is one of the most overrated players in baseball, but it's not necessarily a bad contract as I'm sure he brings in quite a bit of revenue for the Mariners (I'd never say Jeter had a bad contract for the same reasons).

Spoken by someone who loves modern baseball. Ichiro is an unbelievable player. If he wanted to hit for some power he could. Instead he gets on base, steals bases, scores runs, plays great CF. I'd take him any day.

[Oilers9911]

Ichiro is currently 5th in the majors in Runs Created, and he's one of the premium defensive centerfielders in the game. If anything, I think he's somewhat underrated - so many people think "he's just a singles hitter" and don't really grasp how productive he is. Juan Pierre, Luis Castillo - those are guys that are "just singles hitters".

Not to mention a .332 career average and 230 hits per 162 games. I'm not sure how that can be one of the most overrated players in baseball.

[Huckleberry]

Spoken by someone who loves modern baseball. Ichiro is an unbelievable player. If he wanted to hit for some power he could. Instead he gets on base, steals bases, scores runs, plays great CF. I'd take him any day.

I agree that Ichiro is an outstanding player any team would be lucky to have, but the part in bold is ludicrous every time someone says it about a player. You're essentially arguing that he intentionally doesn't help his team out as much as he could and somehow that's a good thing. Additionally, nothing in the following sentence precludes him from also hitting for power. A player can hit for power and still get on base, steal bases, score runs, and play great defense.

[Huckleberry]

Not to mention a .332 career average and 230 hits per 162 games. I'm not sure how that can be one of the most overrated players in baseball.

Pretty easily. If the predominant opinion of Ichiro Suzuki were that he is the greatest player in baseball and a Top 5 player of all time than those stats would be true and he would be enormously overrated. As an example.

[rowech]

I agree that Ichiro is an outstanding player any team would be lucky to have, but the part in bold is ludicrous every time someone says it about a player. You're essentially arguing that he intentionally doesn't help his team out as much as he could and somehow that's a good thing. Additionally, nothing in the following sentence precludes him from also hitting for power. A player can hit for power and still get on base, steal bases, score runs, and play great defense.

You are not going to hit for average/OBP and power at the same time unless you are truly a great hitter like Pujols, ARod, and the like. Ichiro could hit 20 homeruns but his average would certainly drop. Hitting a homerun doesn't always help your team out. Since I'm a Reds fan, I can tell you that 100%. I hate Adam Dunn with an undying passion because he flat out won't help the team by sacrificing a bit and getting the hell on base. Situation dictates what needs to happen and if Ichiro's batting leadoff, he does what he is supposed to do for batting in that position.

Remember the story about Ty Cobb hitting for power?

[sterlingice]

Ichiro is currently 5th in the majors in Runs Created, and he's one of the premium defensive centerfielders in the game. If anything, I think he's somewhat underrated - so many people think "he's just a singles hitter" and don't really grasp how productive he is. Juan Pierre, Luis Castillo - those are guys that are "just singles hitters".

C'mon, gotta try a little harder than cherry picking a stat of "5th in RC" in one half of one season to justify a big long term contract. You've done it in other threads so this is probably just getting tiring, but you know that one half season doesn't justify $18M per (unless you're Adrian Beltre?)

Spoken by someone who loves modern baseball. Ichiro is an unbelievable player. If he wanted to hit for some power he could. Instead he gets on base, steals bases, scores runs, plays great CF. I'd take him any day.

I'd like to pick apart this statement a little. Yes, he steals bases pretty well and scores runs, tho again, that can be argued that it's a product of the lineup as much as of the player- see all the RBI bashing in various threads. Plays great CF is the one that really can't be argued statistically, tho it's fairly widely believed.

The gets on base part is the one I take issue with. In his 6 full seasons, he's only been in the top 10 in the league twice. That's just not very good and not like people would have you believe. He doesn't walk that much so it could be argued that a lot of his hits come at the expense of walks.

If you look at his comparables, it's not exactly a murderer's row. Heck, it's not even a who's who of good leadoff hitters. And, even with the value added for being a CF, you don't give out $18M per year for being a plus fielder. Marketing is where his real value is at.

SI

[rowech]

Guys like Gwynn and Ichiro will never be considered great in the modern game of baseball because of the way the game has changed. Hitting .350 in today's game is so much more special than hitting 30 homeruns though.

[sterlingice]

Guys like Gwynn and Ichiro will never be considered great in the modern game of baseball because of the way the game has changed. Hitting .350 in today's game is so much more special than hitting 30 homeruns though.

Um... Gwynn has a better OBP and SLG playing in a much less offensively inflated era. Hell, he even had speed for a little while. His career OPS+ (132) is about the same as Ichiro's best single year (135). Let's not start lumping these guys in together like they're one and the same. Tho, Gwynn, like Ichiro, didn't take a ton of walks.

SI

[rowech]

Um... Gwynn has a better OBP and SLG playing in a much less offensively inflated era. Hell, he even had speed for a little while. His career OPS+ (132) is about the same as Ichiro's best single year (135). Let's not start lumping these guys in together like they're one and the same. Tho, Gwynn, like Ichiro, didn't take a ton of walks.

SI

Trust me, I'd still take Gwynn and Boggs.

[Oilers9911]

Pretty easily. If the predominant opinion of Ichiro Suzuki were that he is the greatest player in baseball and a Top 5 player of all time than those stats would be true and he would be enormously overrated. As an example.

But that isn't the predominant opinion. The predominant opinion is that Ichiro is one of the best hitters in baseball right now and he clearly is. So how is he overrated?

[McSweeny]

I hate Adam Dunn with an undying passion because he flat out won't help the team by sacrificing a bit and getting the hell on base.

Adam Dunn of the career .378 OBP? The same guy who's walked over 100 times 4 out of the last 5 seasons? The same guy who has also managed to hit 40 homeruns for the last 3 seaons?I'd say he gets on base pretty well when you consider the NL OBP average has been hovering right around .330 for the years that Dunn has been in the league. Couple that with the 40 homeruns and I'd venture to say that Dunn is a pretty damn good ballplayer, and I'd love to have him on the Red Sox

[dawgfan]

C'mon, gotta try a little harder than cherry picking a stat of "5th in RC" in one half of one season to justify a big long term contract. You've done it in other threads so this is probably just getting tiring, but you know that one half season doesn't justify $18M per (unless you're Adrian Beltre?)
First off, when you factor in fielding and ballpark effects, the Aramis Ramirez contract shows that Beltre's deal is no worse than market value.

Secondly, you're right about cherry-picking Ichiro's RC numbers for just this half-season - by doing that, I'm actually selling him short. If you look at the numbers from 2004-2006 for all MLB players, Ichiro appears to rank 2nd in RC, averaging 123.3 in that span. In this regard, he's behind only Pujols (at an amazing 145.0) and ahead of everybody else I can find. That includes big names like A-Rod (122.0). Manny (123.0), Vlad (118.0), Jeter (114.3) and Miguel Cabrera (120.0). It's ahead of fellow OF's and big contract signees Carlos Lee (107.3), Vernon Wells (91.0), Alfonso Soriano (98.7) and Carlos Beltran (113.0).

Given that Ichiro is on-pace for 140 RC this year, his standing isn't going to change much (though A-Rod's huge year will vault him past Ichiro).

And all this is just his offensive contribution - he's also in the upper echelon of defensive CF's.

So if Lee can sign for $19M per, Wells for $18M per, and Beltran and Soriano for $17M per, I don't see Ichiro's $18M per (even granting his age) as anything close to out of line. And that's based off his 2004-06 seasons.

[ISiddiqui]

I'd say Ichiro is probably not overrated now. He was completely overrated in 2001 (his AL MVP that year is one of the biggest jokes ever... he wasn't even the best player on his own team). Now people consider him to a good outfielder, maybe in the Top 10 OF... though perhaps being so far away from Seattle, I don't hear all of the puffing up of Ichiro.

[path12]

If you look at his comparables, it's not exactly a murderer's row. Heck, it's not even a who's who of good leadoff hitters. And, even with the value added for being a CF, you don't give out $18M per year for being a plus fielder. Marketing is where his real value is at.


He is hugely valuable marketing-wise and to keep the fan base motivated. But I would argue that Ichiro's comparables are not a great way to judge him solely because he has such a unique skillset. I'm reminded of old-time players such as Eddie Collins.

[ISiddiqui]

Secondly, you're right about cherry-picking Ichiro's RC numbers for just this half-season - by doing that, I'm actually selling him short. If you look at the numbers from 2004-2006 for all MLB players, Ichiro appears to rank 2nd in RC, averaging 123.3 in that span.

Say what? Ichiro had a very nice 132 RC in 2004, but 103 RC in 2005, and 106 RC in 2006:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/suzukic01.shtml

The average of those three years is 113.6 per season, not 123.3.

[Ksyrup]

Hitting .350 in today's game is so much more special than hitting 30 homeruns though.

I'll tell you what...you can take your "special" .350 hitter, and I'll take a boring 30 HR guy who is objectively better (meaning, he helps his team more) than a .350 hitter. You can have your beauty contestant, I'll take productivity.

[ThunderingHERD]

Where are you getting that Ichiro is 5th in the majors in RC? According to ESPN.com, Ichiro is 15th in RC and 21st in RC/27. That's behind guys like Chris Duncan, Hanley Ramirez, Grady Sizemore, Keven Youkilis, Miguel Cabrera, Carlos Pena, Chase Utley--all of whom are 5-10 years younger than Ichiro.

[dawgfan]

Say what? Ichiro had a very nice 132 RC in 2004, but 103 RC in 2005, and 106 RC in 2006:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/suzukic01.shtml

The average of those three years is 113.6 per season, not 123.3.
I'm using the RC numbers from The Hardball Times, which has Ichiro at 143, 114 & 113 over that span. They are using an advanced version of the metric...

The basic formula for RC is OBP*TB, but it has evolved into over fourteen different versions. We use the most complicated version, which includes the impact of hitting well with runners in scoring position, and is adjusted for ballpark impact. RC/G refers to Runs Created Per Game, which Runs Created divided by the number of outs made by the batter, times 27.

...while Baseball-Reference is using the basic, original Bill James version:

There are 24 different versions of RC depending on the stats you have and I am using the most basic here. (H + BB) * (TB)/ (AB + BB)

[dawgfan]

Where are you getting that Ichiro is 5th in the majors in RC? According to ESPN.com, Ichiro is 15th in RC and 21st in RC/27. That's behind guys like Chris Duncan, Hanley Ramirez, Grady Sizemore, Keven Youkilis, Miguel Cabrera, Carlos Pena, Chase Utley--all of whom are 5-10 years younger than Ichiro.
The Hardball Times. I'm not sure which formula for RC ESPN.com is using.

As for RC/27, that's great as a rate stat, but in the grand scheme of things you want your top players playing and not sitting on the bench. One of the under rated positives Ichiro brings to the table is that he doesn't get hurt and he plays virtually every day. Obviously I'd rather have Barry Bonds in any one particular at-bat, but the big difference in how often they play means that you actually get more value out of Ichiro (when you look at the last 4 seasons or so). And that's part of what the M's are paying for with Ichiro - that he's in the lineup virtually every day producing at a high rate - maybe not as high a rate as other guys, but he's doing it every day.

[rowech]

Adam Dunn of the career .378 OBP? The same guy who's walked over 100 times 4 out of the last 5 seasons? The same guy who has also managed to hit 40 homeruns for the last 3 seaons?I'd say he gets on base pretty well when you consider the NL OBP average has been hovering right around .330 for the years that Dunn has been in the league. Couple that with the 40 homeruns and I'd venture to say that Dunn is a pretty damn good ballplayer, and I'd love to have him on the Red Sox

Let me phrase differently....I want him to sacrifice when it means something. Try and hit a single when that's all you need. The man went two seasons without a sac fly...that's shameful. I'd trade him to anybody in a heartbeat. His work ethic sucks and he has no desire to get better. Just wants to hit his 450 ft homeruns. If you liked Dave Kingman...enjoy.

[Ksyrup]

Dave Kingman's career OBP is .75 points behind Dunn's. Not to mention his Slugging Pct is less than Dunn's as well.

[miked]

I'll tell you what...you can take your "special" .350 hitter, and I'll take a boring 30 HR guy who is objectively better (meaning, he helps his team more) than a .350 hitter. You can have your beauty contestant, I'll take productivity.

Yes, I'd much rather have Delgado than Ichiro :cool:

Seriously, a .350 hitter that scores 110 runs and puts up solid defense is much better than the .250/30 HR guys that play mediocre D at an easy position. It's all about context.

And Adam Dunn sucks :D

[Ksyrup]

That wasn't the comment, though. The comment was about how "special" .350 hitters compared to 30 HR hitters. Completely ignoring the concept of empty .350 hitters, and productive 30 HR hitters. Basically, it came off like a Joe Morgan-type comment about the good-old days.

[John Galt]

Let me phrase differently....I want him to sacrifice when it means something. Try and hit a single when that's all you need. The man went two seasons without a sac fly...that's shameful. I'd trade him to anybody in a heartbeat. His work ethic sucks and he has no desire to get better. Just wants to hit his 450 ft homeruns. If you liked Dave Kingman...enjoy.

So your argument is that when Dunn comes up and a runner is on third, he tries to hit a groundball just to screw his team over? A HR hitter will run into sacrifice flies when the ball doesn't leave the park. Next time a runner is on 3rd and Dunn hits a HR, I hope you yell at your TV that Dunn should have hit it a little more softly to be a "team" player.

So far in 2007, he has 3 SF. In 2006, he hit 3. In 2005, he hit 2. In 2004, he hit 0. In 2003, he hit 4. In 2002, he hit 3. And in 2001 (a partial season), he hit 0. Over the last three years, he has 8. Barry Bonds has 3. Derek Jeter (Mr. team player) has 8. Jeter has also had 3 seasons with only 1 SF and his first partial year had 0. Ichiro, the man who this thread is about has had 9 (6 in one year), but this is in his second season with only 1.

Seriously, the fact that you have made up such ridiculous arguments against Dunn (he doesn't get on base + he doesn't get SF - two ideas which actually contradict each other) pretty much destroys any credibility you have about discussing Dunn. And to say you would trade him for anybody removed any shadow of a doubt on the issue of your credibility. The Reds fan Dunn hatred syndrome has to be one of the more bizarre things in modern baseball.

[Chief Rum]

If they don't want him, I'll take him.

[rowech]

I really hope Dunn gets traded to whatever team you guys root for. Do you honestly think two SF's for a power hitter is good? In addition, Dunn would never hit a homerun with a runner on 3rd. Sadly, just the other night, he could have laid down a bunt in this exact situation, picked up an easy single and knock the run in. Instead....strikeout. He hits his homeruns when nothing matters game already being decided. It's easy to look at his stats but there is definitely more to the story. He has no situational hitting and unless you see him on a daily basis, you'll never understand. I don't know of a Reds fan who is not sick of him.

If you want to add fuel to this fire....I'd trade Dunn for Ichiro in a heartbeat.

[ThunderingHERD]

I really hope Dunn gets traded to whatever team you guys root for. Do you honestly think two SF's for a power hitter is good? In addition, Dunn would never hit a homerun with a runner on 3rd.

Actually, he's hit 3 HRs with runners on third this year. Take a few minutes to compile a list of the top homerun hitters with men on 3rd (among the top 10 HR leaders) and you'll see Dunn ranks 4th.

AB HR HR%
Ryan Howard 35 7 0.200
Alex Rodriguez 34 5 0.147
Carlos Pena 30 4 0.133
Adam Dunn 30 3 0.100
Ken Griffey Jr. 25 2 0.080
Gary Sheffield 31 2 0.065
Prince Fielder 34 2 0.059
Justin Morneau 42 2 0.048
Albert Pujols 21 1 0.048
Miguel Cabrera 33 0 0.000

[ISiddiqui]

I'll take Dunn as well (Mets fan here) if you guys don't want him :D.

[rowech]

I really do hope someone out here gets to experience it.

[larrymcg421]

I really do hope someone out here gets to experience it.

So you're just giving up on the argument after someone presented evidence that contradicted your "experience"?

[ISiddiqui]

So you're just giving up on the argument after someone presented evidence that contradicted your "experience"?

Apparently ;). And I think that is exactly why the sabermetric community got its start... from countering arguments based on personal experience rather than facts.

[McSweeny]

He has no situational hitting and unless you see him on a daily basis, you'll never understand. I don't know of a Reds fan who is not sick of him.

Adam Dunn OPS for his career situationally:

2 ours RISP : .842
Late & Close: .847
Tie Game: .896
Within 1 Run: .883
Within 2 Runs: .905
Within 3 Runs: .911
Within 4 Runs: .909

[rowech]

So you're just giving up on the argument after someone presented evidence that contradicted your "experience"?

I'm not going to change anyone's mind and nobody here is going to change my mind. Boy can hit homeruns, walk, and strikeout. He does little of anything else. He won't even put the ball in play 25% of the time. If it's your cup of tea, then he's all yours.

In addition, sabermetrics/stats are a great thing but when it's all you see when you look at a player and you're watching the game like you're playing a sim then you're missing out on some things. The stats just don't tell the whole story.

[John Galt]

It's amazing too - there are legitimate reasons to criticize Dunn: his defense and his K's. His defense is an easy glaring problem (although I still think it would be partially solved by playing him at 1B). The K's aren't as big of deal to someone sabermatically inclined. However, at his extreme K rate, he does cut down on RBI (and thus run creation opportunities), but the effect is less significant than the Joe Morgan crowd would assume. Instead of making these legitimate criticisms, some Reds fans just throw crap that is actually contradicted by all available evidence.

Dunn is not one of the top 25 players in the game, IMO, but he certainly makes a top 50 list. And you don't give away a top 50 player for nothing because you don't like him.

[rowech]

Adam Dunn OPS for his career situationally:

2 ours RISP : .842
Late & Close: .847
Tie Game: .896
Within 1 Run: .883
Within 2 Runs: .905
Within 3 Runs: .911
Within 4 Runs: .909

Was this an argument for or against my statement? His OPS is 50-70 points lower when it matters.

[rowech]

It's amazing too - there are legitimate reasons to criticize Dunn: his defense and his K's. His defense is an easy glaring problem (although I still think it would be partially solved by playing him at 1B). The K's aren't as big of deal to someone sabermatically inclined. However, at his extreme K rate, he does cut down on RBI (and thus run creation opportunities), but the effect is less significant than the Joe Morgan crowd would assume. Instead of making these legitimate criticisms, some Reds fans just throw crap that is actually contradicted by all available evidence.

Dunn is not one of the top 25 players in the game, IMO, but he certainly makes a top 50 list. And you don't give away a top 50 player for nothing because you don't like him.

I'm not saying to give him away for nothing. If you don't get a deal for at least 2 and probably 3 legit prospects, you keep him until next year and then unload him when his contract is up.

His defense is a little better this year.

[ISiddiqui]

Was this an argument for or against my statement? His OPS is 50-70 points lower when it matters.

Um... you do realize that usually "when it matters" the relievers the player will be facing will be far better than otherwise?

[larrymcg421]

In addition, sabermetrics/stats are a great thing but when it's all you see when you look at a player and you're watching the game like you're playing a sim then you're missing out on some things. The stats just don't tell the whole story.

Um, you made stat based claims about his situational performance and specifically hitting HR's with men on 3rd. Someone showed you his career situational stats and someone else showed you his 2007 success rate with men on 3rd. For purposes of this argument, stats do tell the whole story. They just tell a different one that what you want to believe.

[Chief Rum]

Was this an argument for or against my statement? His OPS is 50-70 points lower when it matters.

So the only time it matters is late and close or 2 outs RISP? You realize those situations don't come upp all the time, right? And that just completely ignores the other stats he posted, all of which I would consider just as important, and they are even or better than his career OPS.

[John Galt]

So the only time it matters is late and close or 2 outs RISP? You realize those situations don't come upp all the time, right? And that just completely ignores the other stats he posted, all of which I would consider just as important, and they are even or better than his career OPS.

rowech is either a complete and total idiot incapable of even the slightest bit of logical analysis and reasoning or his hatred for Dunn has so consumed him that he is unable to have a reasonable argument where Dunn is concerned. For rowech's sake, I'm assuming the latter. Either way, this argument really isn't going anywhere.

[rowech]

His OPS in most other situations, I'll grant you is more consistent than I would have thought. As for the whole homerun with a guy on 3rd, it was a stupid statement when I made it and it's still a stupid statement. So yes, you guys have changed my mind a bit on some things.

What you won't change though, is why would you want a guy who can't put the ball in play 25% of the time and has his OPS drop by 50 points when the game is on the line? As long as there is no pressure and he can just swing away, he's good to go. When he's asked to actually hit situationally, he drops off.

[McSweeny]

What you won't change though, is why would you want a guy who can't put the ball in play 25% of the time and has his OPS drop by 50 points when the game is on the line?

if i have time tomorrow, i'll be happy to show you how striking out is only marginally worse than making an out by putting the ball in play

[Crapshoot]

Apparently ;). And I think that is exactly why the sabermetric community got its start... from countering arguments based on personal experience rather than facts.

Still does. Have you seen some of the people here?

[Crapshoot]

Let me phrase differently....I want him to sacrifice when it means something. Try and hit a single when that's all you need. The man went two seasons without a sac fly...that's shameful. I'd trade him to anybody in a heartbeat. His work ethic sucks and he has no desire to get better. Just wants to hit his 450 ft homeruns. If you liked Dave Kingman...enjoy.


So this is what Wayne Kriviski does in his spare time...

[dawgfan]

What you won't change though, is why would you want a guy who can't put the ball in play 25% of the time and has his OPS drop by 50 points when the game is on the line? As long as there is no pressure and he can just swing away, he's good to go. When he's asked to actually hit situationally, he drops off.
I see - so even though his OPS in clutch situations is very good, because it's not quite as good as in non-clutch situations you have it in for the guy?

And yeah, striking out a lot means less times he puts the ball in play where it could advance or score runners on base, but it also means less times he hits into double plays. Striking out a lot isn't nearly as awful as you seem to think it is.

FWIW, many Seattle fans seem to love Willie Bloomquist. Wanna swap him for Dunn?

[Ksyrup]

And yeah, striking out a lot means less times he puts the ball in play where it could advance or score runners on base, but it also means less times he hits into double plays. Striking out a lot isn't nearly as awful as you seem to think it is.


Yeah, and if you're "hitting situationally," that also means hitting groundballs to advance the runner, which of course lowers OPS. And it's not like this guy is going to leg out hits, so I'd rather him do what he does best, which is drive the ball. But hey, that's just me.

[JPhillips]

Where does the 25% number come from? You say "ball in play" but you must mean "get a hit". He strikes out roughly 1/3 of the time, which would but his "balls in play" at roughly 66%.

Dunn needs to get traded, but not for the absurd reasons you mention. The problem with Dunn is that the Reds won't be willing to pay the 15 million plus he'll get in free agency after next year and I'm not sure he'd even be willing to come back. He can go to a contender and not take half the crap he takes in Cincy.

The Dunn hatred in Cincy is crazy, but it gets a huge boost from Marty Brenneman. He's been doing the Reds for so long that anything he says has credibility in Cincy. It'll be lovely when Norris Hopper is our starting LF.

[Butter]

Hey, a thread about Adam Dunn! Guy has no drive, has never improved his defense despite his clear athletic talent, is actually worse at 1B than in LF (no small task), and has no sense of the strike zone (maybe because he is so tall).

But it's not like 40 HR guys grow on trees. I've gone full circle on Dunn... his defensive display on opening day this year made me ill, but I've come to appreciate him for what he is.

[KWhit]

I have no idea what type of player statistically helps his team more, but I love watching Ichiro play the game. He's a lot more interesting than any of those sluggers out there who only seem to produce a HR, KO, or BB.

Besides, homeruns are fascist.