Vick Sentenced to 23 Months For Dog Fighting

[larrymcg421]

Michael Vick would not be too hot with the Georgia Force, as Georgia likes to use Chris Greisen's arm to move the ball downfield. They played the same way back when Matt Nagy was at quarterback for them. Michael Vick might make a pretty good defensive back, but if he bulked up a bit, he could be a very good jack linebacker. Georgia's weakness is defense, and they could really use more speed on that side of the ball in the always-tough Southern Division. As a passer, though, I don't think Vick would be capable of more than 80 touchdown passes in a season, and he'd probably have trouble cracking the 60% completion mark. He might hit 62% or so, but --

Oh, wait, you weren't serious.

You know way more about Arena Football than is healthy.

[Young Drachma]

Michael Vick would not be too hot with the Georgia Force, as Georgia likes to use Chris Greisen's arm to move the ball downfield. They played the same way back when Matt Nagy was at quarterback for them. Michael Vick might make a pretty good defensive back, but if he bulked up a bit, he could be a very good jack linebacker. Georgia's weakness is defense, and they could really use more speed on that side of the ball in the always-tough Southern Division. As a passer, though, I don't think Vick would be capable of more than 80 touchdown passes in a season, and he'd probably have trouble cracking the 60% completion mark. He might hit 62% or so, but --

Oh, wait, you weren't serious.

You should get to commentate games. Mike and Mike or whoever they use..annoy me.

[Ksyrup]

This is just an assinine comment:


For a behind-the-scenes look inside the ritualized pro world, NEWSWEEK interviewed "Fat Dog," 45, who didn't want to use his real name because dogfighting is illegal. He raises pit bulls in the low country near Savannah, Ga., and says he can trace his dogs' fighting bloodlines back to the 1800s. "I have attended about 50 professional matches in my life, and I have only seen two or three dogs die. They have every opportunity to quit just like a boxer does," he says. He claims that "90 percent" of dogfight matches don't end in death because of the money invested: "If you lose a good dog, that's $3,500 and then the litter you won't have."

[miked]

This is just an assinine comment:


For a behind-the-scenes look inside the ritualized pro world, NEWSWEEK interviewed "Fat Dog," 45, who didn't want to use his real name because dogfighting is illegal. He raises pit bulls in the low country near Savannah, Ga...

So that's what goes on at Skydog's Gator practices...

[Ksyrup]

That was quick...



ATLANTA -- Michael Vick (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5448)'s legal troubles prompted Nike on Thursday to suspend the release of its latest product line named after the Atlanta Falcons (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/clubhouse?team=atl) quarterback.

Nike has told retailers it will not release a fifth signature shoe, the Air Zoom Vick V, this summer. Nike spokesman Dean Stoyer said the four shoe products and three shirts that currently bear Vick's name will remain in stores. Vick will be arraigned next week in a Richmond, Va., federal courtroom on charges of sponsoring a dogfighting operation.

[Eaglesfan27]

How many other sponsors does he have? What is the over/under until they also distance themselves from him?

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Nike spokesman Dean Stoyer said the four shoe products and three shirts that currently bear Vick's name will remain in stores.

And remain, and remain, and continue to remain.

[Noble_Platypus]

I hope that in the not too distant future Mike Vick learns the hard way that 4.3 speed is no good in a 10 by 10 prison shower with 5 other inmates chasing you. :)

[JonInMiddleGA]

How many other sponsors does he have? What is the over/under until they also distance themselves from him?

Not nearly as many as he used to have, a trend that predates the latest developments.

A pretty good writeup on this aspect of the story can be found at
http://www.ajc.com/falcons/content/sports/falcons/stories/2007/07/18/vickbrand_0719.html

Summarized briefly, at least five different deals (Coca-Cola, EA Sports, Kraft Foods, Hasbro and, most recently, AirTran) expired over the past few years & were not renewed. And over the past two years, Vick has fallen from #2 among NFL players in jersey sales to #33 this year.

[BrianD]

I hope that in the not too distant future Mike Vick learns the hard way that 4.3 speed is no good in a 10 by 10 prison shower with 5 other inmates chasing you. :)

As distateful as dog fighting is, I don't think I could wish a prison gang rape on anyone.

[Axxon]

This is just an assinine comment:


For a behind-the-scenes look inside the ritualized pro world, NEWSWEEK interviewed "Fat Dog," 45, who didn't want to use his real name because dogfighting is illegal. He raises pit bulls in the low country near Savannah, Ga., and says he can trace his dogs' fighting bloodlines back to the 1800s. "I have attended about 50 professional matches in my life, and I have only seen two or three dogs die. They have every opportunity to quit just like a boxer does," he says. He claims that "90 percent" of dogfight matches don't end in death because of the money invested: "If you lose a good dog, that's $3,500 and then the litter you won't have."

FWIW, that statement is most likely correct. I can state categorically that with the roosters, at least in Tampa it is.

I have a cousin and his father and they were huge in rooster fighting. When I was around 12-13 I was given a rooster to train and fight. I trained him and he entered one fight. He won. I found I had no taste for the sport and I retired him after that.

My point is though, the animal has no choice obviously but the owner sure does and yep I had to make that call when my rooster fought. It was tough since he was a very laid back bird who would explode when he'd had it.

Well, the betting changes as the event was occuring and the odds on my rooster were rising as he was getting his butt kicked and I had to decide whether he'd taken too much punishment or whether he was just getting worked up.

Right before I was going to stop the fight, he went off and unleashed all rooster hell on his foe whose owner quickly stopped the fight himself. For the record, I had been to many, many fights before I got my own rooster and I never saw one die . Ever. I did see them taking care of many really sick ones and some of those surely weren't going to make it but those were from too long hooks rather than any decision to fight to the death.

Now, I know it's only anectdotal evidence but from my experiences, embarrassing as they are to admit and as long ago as they happened, corroborate what he said.

That said, I think either sport is despicable and I think the book should be thrown at anyone who participates but a very big part of me has that "ere but for the grace of god go I" so I guess I'm finding it hard not to be hypocritical and really hate VIck for this when I have done it myself.

Hey, after all, I grew up and realize the errors of my ways. Could happen to him too.

Now, if you don't mind, I think I just threw up a little bit in my mouth after typing that last sentence.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Um, I think you misread the previous post. The dogs can't decide to quit. The owners make the decision, same as your rooster comparison. However, it appears from the indictment that even if you were a dog and could quit voluntarily, your owner would kill you -- mostly likely by electrocution, drowning, or hanging. Yeah, I see the real parallels here to boxing.

[Axxon]

Um, I think you misread the previous post. The dogs can't decide to quit. The owners make the decision, same as your rooster comparison. However, it appears from the indictment that even if you were a dog and could quit voluntarily, your owner would kill you -- mostly likely by electrocution, drowning, or hanging. Yeah, I see the real parallels here to boxing.

Actually I thought I had read it right and replied


My point is though, the animal has no choice obviously but the owner sure does and yep I had to make that call when my rooster fought.
to say that part.

The huge difference is that the owner would kill you and that I didn't see but I could certainly see how bad owners could do such horrible things and those who are only moderately bad ones wouldn't and that those would be the ones that the guy above is talking about and most likely the guy who quoted above ran into.

[Axxon]

Dola,

I don't get the boxing reference either but I know with roosters if they don't fight, they aren't forced and the matches are draws. Rarely happens though but I've seen it.

[sabotai]

Actually I thought I had read it right and replied

In the analogy, the dog is the boxer. A boxer can quit, a dog can't. Yeah, (I guess) owners can quit as can the boxer's trainer, but the dog itself can't quit the same way a boxer can quit, thus saying "They have every opportunity to quit just like a boxer does" is wrong.

[Brillig]

Well, technically, the dog can quit. Vick and his buddies would savagely slaughter the dog afterwards, but the dog doesn't know that. Of course, any dog that had the temperment to quit has already been shot, electrocuted or slammed into the ground until dead.

But yeah, the dog can quit. Blech.

[sabotai]

I think the point is that the dogs don't understand the rules of the contest the way a boxer understands the rules of a boxing match, and it doesn't know that it can quit.

[Brillig]

Generally, in dominance fights amongst pack animals, it's not to the death. So by that standard I'd argue that the dog does know it can quit.

Edit: Additionally, from reading the various articles, it seems like a dog death in the ring is actually a rare occurance. Most dogs die from their wounds after the fight, or are executed by their masters. So I guess the idea that "90 percent" of dogfight matches don't end in death might actually be literally correct.

[sabotai]

Generally, in dominance fights amongst pack animals, it's not to the death. So by that standard I'd argue that the dog does know it can quit.

I'd counter by saying that these dogs are not raised the same way that dogs in the wild are raised by the pack. They are bred and trained (tortured) to be as deadly as they can be to the point that their instinctual behaivor to cower to a dominant male may be suppressed.

But regardless, dominance fights amonst pack animals are for breeding rights. In those fights, the dogs know why they are fighting (because they both want to be the one to fuck the women). In dog fighting, they are simply trained to tear apart the other dog. They aren't fighting for the breeding rights among the pack, they are just doing what their "trainer" has taught them to do.

[Axxon]

Edit: Additionally, from reading the various articles, it seems like a dog death in the ring is actually a rare occurance. Most dogs die from their wounds after the fight, or are executed by their masters. So I guess the idea that might actually be literally correct.

Holy reading too much into my post batman. Bingo, this is exactly all I was saying. Most trainers don't want their animals to die. They want to stop the fight as he said to protect a sizable investment to them. Most of them are poor.

Animals like MV though, this is chump money and so those normal rules don't apply to him and I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't get him some cred as he didn't play by normal rules.

Again, all I was saying was that from my experiences with roosters, it's not that the animals are dying that is the cruelty. It's the entire process from beginning to stud that sucks and guys doing what MV reportedly did, well, that is really, really rare.

That's all I'm trying to say, really. I'm not comparing Cujo to Ali, or Foghorn Leghorn to Duran, jeez. :)

[Axxon]

I'd counter by saying that these dogs are not raised the same way that dogs in the wild are raised by the pack. They are bred and trained (tortured) to be as deadly as they can be to the point that their instinctual behaivor to cower to a dominant male may be suppressed.

But regardless, dominance fights amonst pack animals are for breeding rights. In those fights, the dogs know why they are fighting (because they both want to be the one to fuck the women). In dog fighting, they are simply trained to tear apart the other dog. They aren't fighting for the breeding rights among the pack, they are just doing what their "trainer" has taught them to do.

This is interesting. I wonder if they have dogs train by fighting other dogs? With our roosters, they never saw another rooster except during a fight. They were trained to be easily riled and aggressive and supposedly by nature are aggressive with their own but no, we never gave them sparring partners or anything like that ( way too risky and expensive a risk ) but we did train them to use spurs but they were typically dulled even for the fight but they could still do considerable damage.

[Chief Rum]

This is interesting. I wonder if they have dogs train by fighting other dogs? With our roosters, they never saw another rooster except during a fight. They were trained to be easily riled and aggressive and supposedly by nature are aggressive with their own but no, we never gave them sparring partners or anything like that ( way too risky and expensive a risk ) but we did train them to use spurs but they were typically dulled even for the fight but they could still do considerable damage.

One of the local radio shows were having guys call in who were involved or had attended dog fights, and one guy said it was fairly commonplace for the dog owners and/or their friends to go out and nab someone's house pet to be used as a "sparring partner" in training sessions. :shudders:

[BrianD]

One of the local radio shows were having guys call in who were involved or had attended dog fights, and one guy said it was fairly commonplace for the dog owners and/or their friends to go out and nab someone's house pet to be used as a "sparring partner" in training sessions. :shudders:

I take back what I said about not wishing prison gang rape on anyone. Stealing a pet to let your monster beat it up? Not cool.

[Chief Rum]

I take back what I said about not wishing prison gang rape on anyone. Stealing a pet to let your monster beat it up? Not cool.

Yeah, I doubt anyone would bother to take my chubby old Dachsund (as mean as he can act to strangers), but I can imagine someone taking my beagle-basset hound mix. She is a bigger dog, but she is also pretty timid and shy, and the thought of her being forced to face some gruesome, snarling beast both scares and angers me.

[Axxon]

One of the local radio shows were having guys call in who were involved or had attended dog fights, and one guy said it was fairly commonplace for the dog owners and/or their friends to go out and nab someone's house pet to be used as a "sparring partner" in training sessions. :shudders:

Yeah, that's horrible. Of course, here the rooster has an advantage because it's not so easy to steal enough family pet roosters to train him with. :)

Of course, since again, roosters don't spar it's a sad little joke really.

[Groundhog]

One of the local radio shows were having guys call in who were involved or had attended dog fights, and one guy said it was fairly commonplace for the dog owners and/or their friends to go out and nab someone's house pet to be used as a "sparring partner" in training sessions. :shudders:

This sounds horrible enough to be an urban legend. I hope so, anyway.

[Axxon]

Here's a quote from a fairly interesting article on rooster fighting. I know it's getting a bit off topic but this was amusing.

Clifton Bryant, a sociologist at Virginia Tech University who has written extensively about cockfighting, said the demographic of cockfighters resembled that of Main Street America from 50 years ago. "They're more likely to be rural, to be married, more likely to go to church, less likely to be divorced, to be veterans, more likely to be conservative,"

Just another thing to blame on the damned republicans. ;)

hxxp://www.animalsvoice.com/PAGES/writes/editorial/news/invest/cockfighting_ending.html

[Axxon]

This sounds horrible enough to be an urban legend. I hope so, anyway.

Quick Google linkie


To protect pets from being stolen, owners should care for their animals like they would a four-year-old child says Marsh Myers, director of education and community outreach for the Humane Society of Southern Arizona in Tucson. Both children and pets, he says, have similar levels of curiosity and vulnerability.

"Pet owners need to play that role of parent," Myers said. "We live in a society that has some dangerous people in it, and they will target your pets if they're allowed to."

Email to a Friend
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Small dogs, kittens, and rabbits are more at risk of being stolen for bait, experts say. Pit bulls, though, are commonly targeted by dog fighting rings for potential breeding stock.

In Arizona state representative Ted Downing introduced a bill last month that would make stealing an animal for use in dog fighting a felony with penalties up to two years in jail and fines as high as U.S. $150,000. If the bill becomes state law, Downing says, it could be the first of its kind in the country.

Looks like National Geographics and representative Dowling believe it's happening.

hxxp://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/02/0218_040218_dogfighting_2.html

[sabotai]

This is interesting. I wonder if they have dogs train by fighting other dogs?

I'm no expert on dog fighting by any means, but I have had occasional exposure to certain aspects to it.

Someone I used to know rescued a dog that was used to bait the fighters. I don't know exactly how they did it, but they some how restrained the two dogs, or had the in cages, and they would somehow teach the fighting dogs to becomes extremely aggressive towards the bait dogs. I don't know how, but that's how it was explained to me. I don't know exactly how they encouraged the aggressive behaivor. And they would also use the bait dog before each fight to get the fighting dogs..."in the mood" to fight, so to speak.

The other way is far worse. They will restrain one dog (tape its mouth shut, etc.) and just let the fighting dog tear it to pieces. This is what Gerald McClellan (former boxer) used to do with the dogs he trained. He would, according to his own words, buy a dog from a local pet shop, take it home, tie it up and let his fighting dog(s) just tear into it. (His life almost makes me believe that karma actually exists)

Those are two ways they use dogs to train other dogs. I'm sure there are more. (EDIT: Well, I guess not. You either let the dog tear the other to pieces or you don't. But I'm sure there are multiple ways of doing either.)

[Groundhog]

Damn. :(

Actually now that I think of it, about a decade ago I went with a friend to see a lady who was giving away kittens. She took home one of the kittens, and the lady, a very nice old woman with a ton of cats, asked for my friend's number so she could check on how the kitten was doing from time to time. About a week later the lady phoned up to check on the cat, and told my friend that just before we got there a young guy came in and got 4 of the kittens, and how that day he'd phoned her up and told her that right then his pitbull was hunting them in the garage, and she could hear the dog savaging them in the background while the guy laughed. It was a pretty horrible story to hear, and my friend ended up giving her back the kitten to help console her about it.

[Ksyrup]

Holy reading too much into my post batman. Bingo, this is exactly all I was saying. Most trainers don't want their animals to die. They want to stop the fight as he said to protect a sizable investment to them. Most of them are poor.

This has nothing to do with the original quote. That guy said the dogs could quit whenever they wanted, just like a boxer. The next line in that article is not related to this quote, it goes off on why most owners don't want their dogs to die. And on that point, I agree. But that doesn't take away from the ridiculous statement preceding it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't.

http://onlineathens.com/stories/072007/sports_20070720050.shtml

Poll shows fans split on Vick
Story updated at 11:02 PM on Thursday, July 19, 2007

ATLANTA - Falcons fans are split almost evenly on how they view the indictment of quarterback Michael Vick.

A survey released Thursday by InsiderAdvantage/Majority Opinion shows 47 percent want him released and 48 percent say he should stay until the case plays out.

Just 5 percent had no opinion among those who said they listened to, watched or attended Falcons games.

Vick was indicted Tuesday for alleged involvement with a multi-state dog-fighting scheme based out of land he owns in Virginia. If convicted, he could face up to five years in federal prison.

The indictment accuses him of personally killing dogs that were not deemed to have enough fight in them to be competitive.

Falcons owner Arthur Blank posted a letter to fans on the team web site saying he had made no decision on Vick's future with the team.

"Given the differing perspectives and strong feelings around this issue, we probably won't make everyone happy," it read.

According to the poll, at least half the people will be unhappy whatever the decision.

The telephone survey of 859 people Wednesday evening found a majority of non-fans - 45 percent - would give Vick his walking papers while 37 percent would keep him, and 18 percent had no opinion.

Blacks and white, though, appeared to view the incident very differently, just as was illustrated by a poll released earlier in the week about reaction to slugger Barry Bonds' approach to Hank Aaron's home run record.

Of the fans and non-fans, 54 percent of whites would ax Vick while 66 percent of blacks favor keeping in for the time being.

"If we were to poll this in a political race, the numbers would be devastating because if we're seeing approval ratings on someone this well known under 50 percent, it would basically beg for a new candidate," said InsiderAdvantage CEO Matt Towery.

[Axxon]

This has nothing to do with the original quote. That guy said the dogs could quit whenever they wanted, just like a boxer. The next line in that article is not related to this quote, it goes off on why most owners don't want their dogs to die. And on that point, I agree. But that doesn't take away from the ridiculous statement preceding it.


Ok, my bad:


For a behind-the-scenes look inside the ritualized pro world, NEWSWEEK interviewed "Fat Dog," 45, who didn't want to use his real name because dogfighting is illegal. He raises pit bulls in the low country near Savannah, Ga., and says he can trace his dogs' fighting bloodlines back to the 1800s. "I have attended about 50 professional matches in my life, and I have only seen two or three dogs die. They have every opportunity to quit just like a boxer does," he says. He claims that "90 percent" of dogfight matches don't end in death because of the money invested: "If you lose a good dog, that's $3,500 and then the litter you won't have."

I took everything inside the quotation sets, none of which are attributed to other people and are all broken up by descriptives like "he claims" and "he says" to mean that this is more or less one thought and it's indeed a thought I often heard and still hear about the sport.

I didn't realize that it was actually disjointed quotes one sentence at a time from various interviews. That was my mistake there.

Given that, taking just that one sentence and realizing it's not in context with the rest of the quote, I can clearly see your point. It is a dumb sentence.

[Axxon]

Dola,

I do see what you're saying on reread but I'm not changing my post. ;)

[miked]

I read the indictment and I just don't get it. For a guy with huge amounts of money in bonuses and endorsements, the purses from these fights were like $2,000-$10,000 or something. And there were 4 of them. Even if they did a fight a day and won like 60%, I just don't understand the motivation. I mean, I understand it I guess if you are a sick disturbed individual, but it just doesn't make any sense.

[DaddyTorgo]

I read the indictment and I just don't get it. For a guy with huge amounts of money in bonuses and endorsements, the purses from these fights were like $2,000-$10,000 or something. And there were 4 of them. Even if they did a fight a day and won like 60%, I just don't understand the motivation. I mean, I understand it I guess if you are a sick disturbed individual, but it just doesn't make any sense.

there's your answer. Obviously he's a sick fuck.

[Noble_Platypus]

Damn. :(

Actually now that I think of it, about a decade ago I went with a friend to see a lady who was giving away kittens. She took home one of the kittens, and the lady, a very nice old woman with a ton of cats, asked for my friend's number so she could check on how the kitten was doing from time to time. About a week later the lady phoned up to check on the cat, and told my friend that just before we got there a young guy came in and got 4 of the kittens, and how that day he'd phoned her up and told her that right then his pitbull was hunting them in the garage, and she could hear the dog savaging them in the background while the guy laughed. It was a pretty horrible story to hear, and my friend ended up giving her back the kitten to help console her about it.

That fucking piece of garbage should be in the prison shower with Vick.

[Noble_Platypus]

W. VA Senators thoughts on people involved in dogfighting:

"I am confident that the hottest places in hell are reserved for the souls of sick and brutal people who hold God's creatures in such brutal and cruel contempt," he said.

Couldnt have said it better myself.

[Karlifornia]

Damn. :(

Actually now that I think of it, about a decade ago I went with a friend to see a lady who was giving away kittens. She took home one of the kittens, and the lady, a very nice old woman with a ton of cats, asked for my friend's number so she could check on how the kitten was doing from time to time. About a week later the lady phoned up to check on the cat, and told my friend that just before we got there a young guy came in and got 4 of the kittens, and how that day he'd phoned her up and told her that right then his pitbull was hunting them in the garage, and she could hear the dog savaging them in the background while the guy laughed. It was a pretty horrible story to hear, and my friend ended up giving her back the kitten to help console her about it.

That's the most harrowing thing I've heard in a while. Calling the lady was the cherry on that shit sundae.

[stevew]

W. VA Senators thoughts on people involved in dogfighting:

"I am confident that the hottest places in hell are reserved for the souls of sick and brutal people who hold God's creatures in such brutal and cruel contempt," he said.

Couldnt have said it better myself.

Yeah, awesome words from an Exalted Cyclops.

[Izulde]

I read the indictment and I just don't get it. For a guy with huge amounts of money in bonuses and endorsements, the purses from these fights were like $2,000-$10,000 or something. And there were 4 of them. Even if they did a fight a day and won like 60%, I just don't understand the motivation. I mean, I understand it I guess if you are a sick disturbed individual, but it just doesn't make any sense.

It's the pleasure of competition and winning. The monetary amounts don't matter; the high of training, fighting and victory through the stable of dogs do.

In that basic form, it's no different from any other hobby that involves contests and winning.

That's not to say that I condone animal fighting. I find it quite reprehensible.

I'm just saying there's a basic psychological enjoyment to be gained from it for those who do engage in it.

[miami_fan]

Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't.

http://onlineathens.com/stories/072007/sports_20070720050.shtml

Poll shows fans split on Vick
Story updated at 11:02 PM on Thursday, July 19, 2007

ATLANTA - Falcons fans are split almost evenly on how they view the indictment of quarterback Michael Vick.

A survey released Thursday by InsiderAdvantage/Majority Opinion shows 47 percent want him released and 48 percent say he should stay until the case plays out.

Just 5 percent had no opinion among those who said they listened to, watched or attended Falcons games.

Vick was indicted Tuesday for alleged involvement with a multi-state dog-fighting scheme based out of land he owns in Virginia. If convicted, he could face up to five years in federal prison.

The indictment accuses him of personally killing dogs that were not deemed to have enough fight in them to be competitive.

Falcons owner Arthur Blank posted a letter to fans on the team web site saying he had made no decision on Vick's future with the team.

"Given the differing perspectives and strong feelings around this issue, we probably won't make everyone happy," it read.

According to the poll, at least half the people will be unhappy whatever the decision.

The telephone survey of 859 people Wednesday evening found a majority of non-fans - 45 percent - would give Vick his walking papers while 37 percent would keep him, and 18 percent had no opinion.

Blacks and white, though, appeared to view the incident very differently, just as was illustrated by a poll released earlier in the week about reaction to slugger Barry Bonds' approach to Hank Aaron's home run record.

Of the fans and non-fans, 54 percent of whites would ax Vick while 66 percent of blacks favor keeping in for the time being.

"If we were to poll this in a political race, the numbers would be devastating because if we're seeing approval ratings on someone this well known under 50 percent, it would basically beg for a new candidate," said InsiderAdvantage CEO Matt Towery.

Interesting numbers. If the NFL continues to leave the ball in the Falcons' court, I wonder how seriously the Falcons are considering an outright release. I read somewhere that it is a $6 million salary cap this year and $15 million next if they were to release him today. I am guessing that is the only thing that is keeping him on the team right now. Even if he is found innocent on all charges, I can't see anyway he can continue to be the starting QB of the Falcons ever again. Would it be better to cut their losses now and take the chance that the positive feedback outweighs the negative?

[Jas_lov]

Should they really cut him at this point or just give him a leave of absence? Arthur Blank released a statement yesterday that said they were considering the legal issues. I don't think he'll be able to play at all this year either way because of all the preparation and practice that goes in each week that he wouldn't be able to be there for. I guess they could give him a leave of absence and say they're waiting for a verdict. It doesn't seem likely from the evidence and witnesses the Feds have that he'll be found not guilty on all charges. They were just talking on Mike and Mike that the cousin who was busted for the drug charge that started all of this is not one of the ones charged in the indictment so he may have already rolled on Vick to save himself as others probably will too.

Can they recover any of his salary or bonus if he's sent to jail and unable to play or even this year if he can't attend practices and games because of court dates? Maybe they'll keep him around then to save themselves from the cap hit. Otherwise they're probably better off just releasing him.

[Butter]

I'm sure the dog fighting community is thrilled at the glaring spotlight it is now receiving.

[Ksyrup]

They and roided wrestlers cannot be too happy about the recent turn of events.

[TroyF]

I noticed the money thing as well. But as the poster above said, it's your hobby. It can be golf, bowling or being a sick #%$#@ and fighting dogs, it's the hobby that gives you the pleasure.

Vick has some interesting choices to make now. If he's as involved as they say he is, he can bring a lot of people in the dog fighting world down to cut his sentencing down. If he does that, it's almost a certainty that he'd be finished as an NFL QB. His only real chance is to be found innocent.

He'd better hope the Falcons don't suspend him and let him play this year. If he gets to play, that'll likely be the last games he ever plays in as an NFL QB.

[Ksyrup]

I think he not only has to be found innocent, but there has to be reasonable doubt that he is anywhere near as connected to this as alleged. They might not prove their case - doubtful, but certainly possible - but if they at least make any kind of connection here, he's never going to live it down. He may get to play football, but he'll be OJ Lite in the public's eyes. I don't see him turning it around like Kobe, unless his defense utterly shreds the prosecution's case.

[Brillig]

If only Mike Vick had found a socially acceptable form of animals going round and round at each other.

Like... NASCAR.

[miami_fan]

Should they really cut him at this point or just give him a leave of absence? Arthur Blank released a statement yesterday that said they were considering the legal issues. I don't think he'll be able to play at all this year either way because of all the preparation and practice that goes in each week that he wouldn't be able to be there for. I guess they could give him a leave of absence and say they're waiting for a verdict. It doesn't seem likely from the evidence and witnesses the Feds have that he'll be found not guilty on all charges. They were just talking on Mike and Mike that the cousin who was busted for the drug charge that started all of this is not one of the ones charged in the indictment so he may have already rolled on Vick to save himself as others probably will too.

Can they recover any of his salary or bonus if he's sent to jail and unable to play or even this year if he can't attend practices and games because of court dates? Maybe they'll keep him around then to save themselves from the cap hit. Otherwise they're probably better off just releasing him.

The reason I asked about an outright release is because I am not clear on the ins and outs of a "leave of absence" Can the Falcons force Vick take a leave of absence or does he have to request one? I am assuming that Vick wants to play this year so he will not ask for it. If they forced him off the field, is that considered a suspension?

[flere-imsaho]

Yeah, I doubt anyone would bother to take my chubby old Dachsund (as mean as he can act to strangers), but I can imagine someone taking my beagle-basset hound mix. She is a bigger dog, but she is also pretty timid and shy, and the thought of her being forced to face some gruesome, snarling beast both scares and angers me.

As the owner of a rottweiler mix, I can definitely see someone trying to kidnap my dog for this very reason.

This sounds horrible enough to be an urban legend. I hope so, anyway.

It's not. I've been repeatedly warned about this by my dog's vet, his trainer, his walker, etc... and instances are sporadically reported in the local press (Chicago).

Vick has some interesting choices to make now. If he's as involved as they say he is, he can bring a lot of people in the dog fighting world down to cut his sentencing down. If he does that, it's almost a certainty that he'd be finished as an NFL QB. His only real chance is to be found innocent.

Unless there's some great reversal in the way things are going (such as the case failing spectacularly, say due to planted evidence or something), I think he's probably going to be nothing but a liability from a PR standpoint, which would make it difficult for a lot of teams to employ him. If he pleas or if he's found guilty, yeah, it's all over.

[RedKingGold]

Not sure if this has been posted

NFL, Falcons could ask Vick to focus energies in court
By Len Pasquarelli and Chris Mortensen
ESPN.com

Updated: July 20, 2007, 11:02 AM ET
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ATLANTA -- In what has quickly evolved into a collaborative effort that includes the input of officials from the NFL, the NFL Players Association and the Atlanta Falcons, embattled quarterback Michael Vick could be urged to take a voluntary leave of absence to focus his energy on the legal challenges from a federal dogfighting indictment confronting him, sources said Thursday and Friday.


There are, however, two critical components that must be resolved: Falcons owner Arthur Blank must be on board with a plan that has generated considerable discussion at the league level the past two days. And Vick, who might be reluctant to accept even a paid hiatus from the game, might have to be convinced that the leave could be his best option right now.


Blank and the Falcons might also be considering other options.


Under the leave-of-absence scenario, and given the projected timeline of any trial that could ensue from the federal indictments brought against the quarterback Tuesday, all parties would enter into the agreement, if it is consummated, with the expectation that Vick, 27, would probably miss the entire 2007 season.


While the concept of a leave has been broached conceptually to associates and advisors of Vick, it has not yet been formally presented to the Falcons' star. Vick could be briefed about the possibility of a paid leave of absence, however, as early as Friday. He would likely be granted time to consider the suggestion, which would almost certainly have to be made by Blank, with a decision not coming until early next week.


It has become clear, as high-level discussions have progressed, that all the parties involved in the talks are desperately seeking a resolution to a potential public relations disaster before the Falcons begin training camp next Thursday afternoon. A league source acknowledged on Thursday that "something one way or the other is going to have to happen ... by the start of training camp."


As incentive for Vick to consider a leave, the union is hopeful that Blank will offer to guarantee the player's full $6 million base salary for 2007. That could be a sticking point in the negotiations. No one will try to bully Vick into accepting the leave, but he might be reminded that while the league and Falcons are inclined for now to allow due process to play out in the courts, that stance is not an inalterable one, and unfolding events could possibly change the approach of Blank and of commissioner Roger Goodell.


Multiple sources at various levels of the ongoing discussions acknowledged a consensus was beginning to galvanize that nobody, including Vick, will benefit by the quarterback playing the 2007 season under a lingering cloud of suspicion and the ponderous legal burden of the federal indictment. In the indictment, Vick is alleged to have conspired in an illegal dogfighting venture conducted on property he owns in Surry County, Va.


Intensive talks continued Thursday with Goodell, Blank, Falcons' team president and general manager Rich McKay, and NFLPA executive director Gene Upshaw discussing various options available to them. Those discussions were expected to continue on Friday.


If convicted on all counts, Vick could face a prison sentence of six years.


Neither Vick, his attorney nor agent could not be reached for comment Thursday night. Blank also was unavailable for comment and a Falcons' spokesman referred to the owner's statement released earlier Thursday in which he expressed that "we are working diligently on exploring our options."


"The commissioner is concerned about the seriousness of the charges and he wants to make sure Vick focuses on putting up the most appropriate defense," a source said. "Vick has to be convinced that it is in his best interests to take a leave of absence ... I think it's fair to say nobody's really comfortable with him playing under these circumstances."

Even a close Vick associate acknowledged early Friday that is the case.


Said the associate: "There's been a lot of stuff going on the last day or so, but the one thing that keeps getting clearer and clearer is that they don't want [Vick] around. The Falcons, the league, they know it's a mess and it's only going to get uglier if camp starts and he's on the field. If he's not [present for camp], at least there's a little bit of 'out of sight, out of mind,' you know? It removes the source of distraction. Otherwise, it's just [untenable]."


A leave of absence would at least temporarily address several possible dilemmas for the Falcons, including how to handle Vick's contract if he does not report to training camp on time. And it would enable the franchise, even if Vick doesn't play in 2007, to retain his contractual rights. Vick is scheduled for a bond hearing and his arraignment hearing Thursday, the same day the Falcons hold their initial camp practice under first-year coach Bobby Petrino.


Without an excused absence, Vick could technically be in default of his contract if he does not report to camp on time, perhaps providing the Falcons the right to attempt to recover bonus money already paid to him. There are default provisions, described by one source with close knowledge of Vick's contract as "very tight language," written into the lucrative 10-year extension he signed in December 2004. Vick advisors spent time Thursday discussing the potential default ramifications with NFLPA officials.


And members of the NFL Management Council, the labor arm of the league, earlier this week began closely reviewing Vick's contract, to see what options might be available to Blank and the Falcons if they opt to pursue any bonus payments.


The 2004 extension has long been advertised as a 10-year, $130 million contract. In reality, because the final season of the contract voided as soon as Vick reached minimum playing time thresholds, it is a nine-year deal worth about $118 million. Vick has banked more than $40 million, but $37 million of that was in bonuses -- an initial signing bonus of $7.5 million and then subsequent roster bonuses of $22.5 million and $7 million. But for salary cap purposes, the Falcons exercised an option to convert the roster bonuses into signing bonuses.


That might seem incidental because Vick got all of the money coming to him anyway. But if the Falcons attempt at some point to force Vick into paying back part of the bonus money, how the conversions are interpreted might be a point of contention. A ruling in a grievance case involving former Denver first-round wide receiver Ashley Lelie last year made it more difficult for teams to seek repayment of option or roster bonuses.


Atlanta officials might contend that the two most recent bonuses paid Vick, totaling $29.5 million, were converted to signing bonuses, and that they should be permitted to pursue a prorated share of that money. The Vick came would likely counter that, while the money was paid as signing bonuses, it was actually earned as roster bonuses.


But any contentiousness, and a possible arbitration hearing, could be avoided if Vick accepts a proposal for a leave of absence, one in which all parties agree he will miss camp.


"It would certainly give everyone some much-needed breathing room," allowed one league source late Thursday night. "People could get on with their business."


Make no mistake, for both the Falcons and the NFL, there is clearly a business component attached to the Vick case.


The league faces a backlash, not only from animal rights groups, but others as well, And in the statement that Blank released Thursday, he noted his responsibility to his sponsors. The team recently entered into an agreement with Russell Athletic in which the apparel maker will pay $1 million-$2 million annually to sponsor the Falcons' training camp. It could be a camp disrupted by protests if Vick attends.


In another Vick-related matter, the quarterback's camp has begun interviewing candidates to beef up his legal defense team, in the event he goes to trial. Vick's longtime personal attorney, Lawrence Woodward, is expected to remain part of the defense team, but advisors have urged that the Falcons' star consider adding counsel with experience in the federal courts.


The Vick camp has solicited recommendations and is believed to have interviewed at least one prominent defender from the prestigious Washington, D.C., firm of Wilmer Hale.

Len Pasquarelli is a senior NFL writer for ESPN.com. Television reporter Chris Mortensen covers the NFL for ESPN.

Probably the best solution for all sides. Vick would still get paid and the NFL would get out of the inevitable media circus.

[Ksyrup]

This was the easy solution from Day One. The only question is whether Vick agrees.

[clintl]

Unless there's some great reversal in the way things are going (such as the case failing spectacularly, say due to planted evidence or something), I think he's probably going to be nothing but a liability from a PR standpoint, which would make it difficult for a lot of teams to employ him. If he pleas or if he's found guilty, yeah, it's all over.

Yeah, his choices would be pretty much down to the Raiders.

[st.cronin]

I actually think its possible, even if he goes to jail, for him to rehabilitate his image. Massive donations to the humane society, a weeping shameful apology, etc. It can be done.

[Butter]

I actually think its possible, even if he goes to jail, for him to rehabilitate his image. Massive donations to the humane society, a weeping shameful apology, etc. It can be done.

It can be done, but do you think it would happen? I have a hard time picturing it.

[st.cronin]

It can be done, but do you think it would happen? I have a hard time picturing it.

No. My guess is that he never plays football again, and just sort of disappears from the public eye.

[Synovia]

Blacks and white, though, appeared to view the incident very differently, just as was illustrated by a poll released earlier in the week about reaction to slugger Barry Bonds' approach to Hank Aaron's home run record. Of the fans and non-fans, 54 percent of whites would ax Vick while 66 percent of blacks favor keeping in for the time being. This has more cemented my oppinion of Atlanta as a racist community. The fact that 66% of black people still want this guy playing, even after this, is ridiculous. Racism is alive and well in America. Its just not what the media likes to think it is.

[rkmsuf]

This has more cemented my oppinion of Atlanta as a racist community. The fact that 66% of black people still want this guy playing, even after this, is ridiculous. Racism is alive and well in America. Its just not what the media likes to think it is.

or maybe atlanta has a large dog fighting fanbase.

[larrymcg421]

Most people I've talked to (of both races) that still want him playing actually don't know everything involved. Some think he only owned the property, some think he attended a few dogfights but was not a major player. When I tell them what is involved in the indictment, their tune changes pretty quickly. I'd like to see a breakdown of that poll based on how much info is known about the case. Maybe even do a push poll method to see how people react to the specific facts.

Just because the poll has different results based on racial lines does not mean race is the motivating factor. You can't conclude that until you rule out other potential factors.

Also, it's silly to say that the racism alleged by the media does not exist. There may be other forms of racism that don't get reported quite as much, but the traditional form of racism is alive and well.

[KWhit]

Probably the best solution for all sides. Vick would still get paid and the NFL would get out of the inevitable media circus.

I guess it makes sense for now, but I just can't stand the fact that even if he's guilty, he gets paid millions of dollars to do nothing.

It sucks.

[JonInMiddleGA]

This has more cemented my oppinion of Atlanta as a racist community.

Clearly you have a firm grasp of the obvious ;)

[Synovia]

Most people I've talked to (of both races) that still want him playing actually don't know everything involved. Some think he only owned the property, some think he attended a few dogfights but was not a major player. When I tell them what is involved in the indictment, their tune changes pretty quickly. I'd like to see a breakdown of that poll based on how much info is known about the case. Maybe even do a push poll method to see how people react to the specific facts.

Just because the poll has different results based on racial lines does not mean race is the motivating factor. You can't conclude that until you rule out other potential factors.

Also, it's silly to say that the racism alleged by the media does not exist. There may be other forms of racism that don't get reported quite as much, but the traditional form of racism is alive and well.

No, what I'm saying is that the media reports anything a white person says that involves black people, its a national story, but guys like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton can spew racist hate, and nobody calls them on it.

I've been to atlanta, and the black population's oppinion of Mike Vick is absurd. (Up until this) they saw his as some sort of Joe Montana/Randal Cunningham/Gale Sayers/Jesus cross, when its been apparrant for the last 3 years or so, that hes really not that good of a football player, and is a despicable human being. They love him BECAUSE hes black, and that, is racist.

[miked]

: ping : OJ

[Ksyrup]

I'd be more interested to see the racial split if he pleads guilty or is convicted. That would tell you more.

[Ksyrup]

Chrysler pulls SUV ad with electrocuted dog

Internet video ad pulled from YouTube was in 'exremely poor taste' says Chrysler.

July 20 2007: 12:51 PM EDT
<!--startclickprintexclude-->
<!--endclickprintexclude-->
<!-- CONTENT -->DETROIT (Reuters) -- Chrysler Group apologized on Thursday for an advertisement that showed a dog being electrocuted beside its new Dodge Nitro sports utility vehicle.

The ad, created by BBDO Netherlands which supports Chrysler's sales in the Dutch market, shows a dog being electrocuted after urinating on a Nitro's wheels. The agency is part of Omnicom Group Inc's BBDO Worldwide.

The ad, which ends with the dog going up in flames, has the tagline "charged with adrenaline." According to Chrysler, the ad was placed exclusively on the Internet.

[rkmsuf]

can they use a cat instead? I'm for that.

[Huckleberry]

Obviously that would be fine. It's well-established that dogfights are terrible. Catfights, on the other hand, are wonderful.

hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0pEUJrmvAM

[Ben E Lou]

I'd be more interested to see the racial split if he pleads guilty or is convicted. That would tell you more.

It probably wouldn't tell you what you're thinking it would tell you, though. I have very little doubt that there's a higher percentage of white people who have a problem with dogfighting than black people. Sure, there's a racist component to the poll, but the fact that it's dogfighting is unquestionably playing into the results, too.

[Synovia]

I have very little doubt that there's a higher percentage of white people who have a problem with dogfighting than black people.

SKy, you'd be amazed at the response I recieved saying exactly that on another forum. I'm now the official racist jerk over there.

[miami_fan]

No, what I'm saying is that the media reports anything a white person says that involves black people, its a national story, but guys like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton can spew racist hate, and nobody calls them on it.

I've been to atlanta, and the black population's oppinion of Mike Vick is absurd. (Up until this) they saw his as some sort of Joe Montana/Randal Cunningham/Gale Sayers/Jesus cross, when its been apparrant for the last 3 years or so, that hes really not that good of a football player, and is a despicable human being. They love him BECAUSE hes black, and that, is racist.

They like him because he's black?

I wonder why this has not helped the Hawks. If one black player is worth 70,000 people in the stands in the Georgia Dome, you would think 10+ black players would worth more 10 people in Phillips Arena, right?

[BrianD]

Obviously that would be fine. It's well-established that dogfights are terrible. Catfights, on the other hand, are wonderful.

hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0pEUJrmvAM

Please repost this video any time we get involved in a pointless political debate. Nobody can hold on to any hate while watching it. :)

[Ksyrup]

It probably wouldn't tell you what you're thinking it would tell you, though. I have very little doubt that there's a higher percentage of white people who have a problem with dogfighting than black people. Sure, there's a racist component to the poll, but the fact that it's dogfighting is unquestionably playing into the results, too.

I think what I was getting at is it might isolate, to an extent, the true "reverse racism" issue discussed above if there was still a significant percentage of black people who supported Vick even after guilt/conviction. Sure, a percentage of those might be people who either don't have a problem with dogfighting or actually enjoy it, but I think the majority would be the "we're supporting him because he's black" contingent. I think a lot of that played into the Bonds poll, too.

[st.cronin]

It probably wouldn't tell you what you're thinking it would tell you, though. I have very little doubt that there's a higher percentage of white people who have a problem with dogfighting than black people. Sure, there's a racist component to the poll, but the fact that it's dogfighting is unquestionably playing into the results, too.

I wonder what other felonies this might be true about.

[Ben E Lou]

I think what I was getting at is it might isolate, to an extent, the true "reverse racism" issue discussed above if there was still a significant percentage of black people who supported Vick even after guilt/conviction. Sure, a percentage of those might be people who either don't have a problem with dogfighting or actually enjoy it, but I think the majority would be the "we're supporting him because he's black" contingent. I think a lot of that played into the Bonds poll, too.

I don't follow that. If someone doesn't have a problem with dogfighitng, it's immaterial whether or not he gets convicted. Someone has has no problem with dogfighting doesn't think it should be illegal in the first place. Note what Portis said. I'm quite certain he spoke not realizing that most of America had a major problem with dogfighting. I'm equally as certain that he said what he really felt: his dog, his property, he can do whatever he wants.

[Synovia]

They like him because he's black?

I wonder why this has not helped the Hawks. If one black player is worth 70,000 people in the stands in the Georgia Dome, you would think 10+ black players would worth more 10 people in Phillips Arena, right?

If Michael Vick was white, would he have the same approval rating there? I say no.

[Ksyrup]

I don't follow that. If someone doesn't have a problem with dogfighitng, it's immaterial whether or not he gets convicted. Someone has has no problem with dogfighting doesn't think it should be illegal in the first place. Note what Portis said. I'm quite certain he spoke not realizing that most of America had a major problem with dogfighting. I'm equally as certain that he said what he really felt: his dog, his property, he can do whatever he wants.

Perhaps. I guess you're painting a far broader picture of acceptance of dogfighting within the black community then I believe exists. But you'd likely know better than I would. :)

[Ben E Lou]

Perhaps. I guess you're painting a far broader picture of acceptance of dogfighting within the black community then I believe exists. But you'd likely know better than I would. :)

I don't think it's widely accepted, per se,, but I have little doubt in my mind that it has a higher rate of acceptance among blacks than whites. It has been my perception for quite some time, and the reading I've done on it in the last week or so has bolstered that. Humane society and law enforcement sources talk quite a bit about the "explosive growth" of dogfighting in black communities in the last 15-20 years.

[miami_fan]

If Michael Vick was white, would he have the same approval rating there? I say no.

I think you are missing my point. You made the statement that the reason the black population in Atlanta support Michael Vick is because he is black. Now you are asking if Vick were white would he have the same approval rating. To me, that is no better than the garbage that Jackson and Sharpton If race in and of itself is the determining factor of who the black population supports and who they don't, I wondered why Phillips Arena is empty during basketball season when the Hawks has a majority of black players on it.

[larrymcg421]

Again, I think there's a big difference in acceptance of dogfighting and acceptance of what has been accused of Michael Vick. I think dogfighting may be more accepted in the black community in the sense of, "dogs fighting dogs, it's not that big a deal" (which is what most people I've talked to have initially said), but when they hear about the mutilation done to the animals, it's a much different story. I don't think that aspect is more widely accepted, and I suspect that the racial disparity in the poll is more reflective of the respondents knowledge of the facts moreso than their acceptance of Vick because he's black.

[spleen1015]

I think you are missing my point. You made the statement that the reason the black population in Atlanta support Michael Vick is because he is black. Now you are asking if Vick were white would he have the same approval rating. To me, that is no better than the garbage that Jackson and Sharpton If race in and of itself is the determining factor of who the black population supports and who they don't, I wondered why Phillips Arena is empty during basketball season when the Hawks has a majority of black players on it.

If the Hawks had a player that a majority of the sports world thought was going to be one of the best to ever play, then they would be filling the arena. You know the ATL would be all over Lebron James if he were in that city.

I think the point he was trying to make is that the black community wouldn't be supporting Tom Brady as much as they support Michael Vick.

[rkmsuf]

If the Hawks had a player that a majority of the sports world thought was going to be one of the best to ever play, then they would be filling the arena. You know the ATL would be all over Lebron James if he were in that city.

I think the point he was trying to make is that the black community wouldn't be supporting Tom Brady as much as they support Michael Vick.

Tom Brady can hang with the brothas. Peyton Manning...not so sure.

[st.cronin]

I think the point he was trying to make is that the black community wouldn't be supporting Alex Smith as much as they support Michael Vick.

That's a much better comp.

[miami_fan]

Tom Brady can hang with the brothas. Peyton Manning...not so sure.

:D

[spleen1015]

That's a much better comp.

Yeah, I thought so myself, but I couldn't think of anyone else quick enough. And, well, you take Brady away from Bill and he's not any good either.

[larrymcg421]

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/images/styles/yellow/buttons//viewpost.gif (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?p=1506966#post1506966) Tom Brady can hang with the brothas. Peyton Manning...not so sure.


I don't know about that. I've seen tons of Manning jerseys in the ATL, but can't remember the last time I saw anyone wearing Brady.

[rkmsuf]

I don't know about that. I've seen tons of Manning jerseys in the ATL, but can't remember the last time I saw anyone wearing Brady.

That's just to keep the whities off their back.

Tons of Brady gear at the dog fights.

[st.cronin]

Yeah, I thought so myself, but I couldn't think of anyone else quick enough. And, well, you take Brady away from Bill and he's not any good either.

Oh boy.

[spleen1015]

[/I]


I don't know about that. I've seen tons of Manning jerseys in the ATL, but can't remember the last time I saw anyone wearing Brady.

Are white or black people wearing them?

[Young Drachma]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/20/martin/index.html

[Ksyrup]

This is a long article from the Tallahassee Democrat about issues in that area, as well as Florida generally. There is some backup for the earlier comments about using other animals for training that is just unbelievable.



Originally published July 20, 2007
<!--HEADLINE-->Dogfighting: A dirty little secret
Officials say it's a vastly underreported crime locally
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=445 border=0><TBODY><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD>By Stacy Jacobs
DEMOCRAT STAFF WRITER
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom><!--PRINT THIS ARTICLE--></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

No one talks about it. No one admits to being involved.

However, deputies and animal activists agree that dogfighting is happening within the city of Tallahassee, as well as in far stretches of Leon and surrounding counties. It's an underground sport, usually accompanied by drug dealing, alcohol and gambling.

In Florida, it is a felony to breed, sell or transport dogs for the purpose of fighting, as well as to organize dogfights or be a spectator of such fights.

"We receive information and tips probably between six to 10 times a year about possible organized dogfighting activities," said Leon County Sgt. James McQuaig, who works in the vice unit. "We're fortunate to (make the arrests) that we're able to get, but we know there are more going on."

Dogfighting is not always as organized as the ring in which Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick is accused of being involved. Tallahassee-Leon Community Animal Service Center Supervisor Jeff Doyle said that he hears about spontaneous dogfighting instances.

"What we see are situations where a young man is walking a dog down the street and comes upon another young man with a dog and they spontaneously engage the dogs," he said.

Neighbors sometimes report these instances, but Doyle said that by the time officers and animal control arrive, the fight is usually over.

LCSO spokesman Chris Chase said that organized dogfights aren't necessarily limited to rural areas.

"It was initially spread out to more of a rural culture, but has branched into the inner city," he said. "There have been cases involving houses in the city limits, where they fought indoors."

Deputies arrested two men in Augustin connection with an Aug. 22 dogfight and took 14 dogs into custody, according to a court record. This was following a raid on a dogfight on Blue Bird Drive within Tallahassee's city limits. Devin Garmon was arrested on 10 charges of felony animal cruelty and 10 charges of dogfighting, and Derrick Brown was arrested on charges of cruelty to animals and fighting animals.

The trial date for Garmon and Brown has not been set; their lawyers think that the date will be set on July 30 during a court hearing.

Deputies said that 10 of the dogs they took had puncture wounds and lacerations. Dogs that are involved in fighting are usually euthanized when the Humane Society takes them, said Laura Bevin, Southeast regional director for the U.S. Humane Society.

In this case, all of the injured dogs were pit bulls.

"These dogs are bred specifically for their aggressiveness," she said. "You have a real danger with any dog that's been bred as a fighter and trained as a fighter. ... Some people who want to rehabilitate (the dogs) are related to the dogfighting world."

Bevin, who is considered an expert witness on dogfighting by the courts of Florida and who cowrote the state's law on dogfighting, said the draw for people is money and power, and it spans all races and socioeconomic positions.

"There's a lot of money involved in dogfighting," she said, adding that money isn't just made from gambling. "The dog can go to stud and make a lot of money.

"A lot of people get that vicarious thrill and live through the violence of the dog. ... A lot of people say, 'I love my dog,' but if it doesn't win, it gets shot in the head. They love the dog as long as it's the baddest dog on the block."

Bevin said she's heard of dogfighting activity along Woodville Highway.

The indictment against Vick and three other men said that losing dogs died in the fighting pits or were electrocuted, drowned, hanged or shot.

"We hear that dogs that lose or no longer have the drive are killed in all kinds of manners," Richard Ziegler, Leon County Animal Control director, said. "I haven't heard of the electrocution part (around this area). It's gunshots, usually, or they are just left there to die on their own; it's slow and painful."

The violence isn't contained to only the animals in the fights.

"There have been times when (Animal Control) has found people stealing pets for bait dogs and stuff like that," Bevin said. "Some of the dogs that don't make it (as fighters), they're used as bait. They can't really fight back, but you can get that dog that you're trying to train ready to fight."

Bait animals are used by trainers as an easy target for dogs that are training for fights.In other instances, rabbits, cats and even puppies are tied into sacks and placed at the front of a treadmill while the fighting dog runs furiously on the device hoping to get closer to the sack.

Mark Johnson, an assistant state attorney in Gadsden County, said that the trouble with prosecuting these cases is convincing a jury of what happened. He prosecuted a dogfighting case from 2005 where the jury decided the defendants were not guilty; the Sheriff's office did not manage to catch them in the act.

"The hardest part is finding out who is responsible," Johnson said. "Take the Michael Vick case, where you have other individuals in charge. Of course, it's happening on his property and he's in another state, and you're trying to prove he's the one responsible. Proving it is sometimes a whole lot different than what we know happened.

"Unless you have factual evidence, it's difficult to prove it."

[Bearcat729]

can they use a cat instead? I'm for that.

You mean like this?

hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ray5rtU87o

hxxp://www.snopes.com/photos/advertisements/sportka.asp

The video clip starts innocently enough: an orange tabby strolling through a suburban neighborhood comes across a small blue automobile parked in a driveway. As the cat watches, the vehicle's sunroof enticingly slides open; the curious feline hops onto the car's hood, then runs up the windshield and pokes its head into the open sunroof the see what's inside. But what happens next is horrifying: the sunroof automatically begins to close again, trapping the cat by its neck. As the tabby struggles furiously to extricate itself, the sunroof lid slices off its head, and the viewer sees the decapitated body slide to the ground.

The video doesn't show any blood or gore; the horror comes purely from what it depicts. If the clip were intended as, say, a public service announcement warning car owners about the dangers of leaving sunroofs open, it might even be tolerable. But what has angered and outraged legions of cat fanciers is the revelation at the end of the video clip that it's an advertisement for a car — the Ford SportKa, billed as "The Ka's Evil Twin."

How could one of the world's leading automobile manufacturers be so out of touch with the public sensibilities to think that a clip showing one of its cars slicing off a cat's head would be effective (or even an acceptable) advertisement? Sometimes companies are willing to embrace the outrageous for publicity's sake, but it's hard to tell what Ford was thinking in this case — the controversy has prompted the familiar response (used by Nokia last year to disclaim a similar clip) of blaming an advertising agency for going ahead with a concept the client didn't approve and proclaiming shock that the concept was fully developed into a finished spot anyway (and then somehow "leaked" to the Internet):
Ford's European operation and Ogilvy & Mather, its advertising agency, began an investigation into how a proposed ad — which both insisted had been rejected — had begun circulating on the Internet.

The car maker said the advert was conceived as part of a "viral" campaign, where short videos are released on to the Internet and redistributed by e-mail, as people find them funny. But it insisted it was not meant to be developed. As an alternative, a clip showing a comedy pigeon being thwacked by the bonnet, had been chosen.

"It was done as a proposal somewhere deep down in the bowels of the agency," Ford said. "As soon as we saw it we said absolutely not. We are appalled — this is not something we want to be associated with."

"A full investigation has been ordered by Ford and Ogilvy to determine how this unapproved material found its way into the public domain," said a spokesman for Ford. "The action in the video clip was totally computer generated — no animal was harmed."
However, some cynics have suggested that nothing "backfired," and Ford got exactly what it wanted — an effective "viral marketing" campaign that attracted a good deal of attention to their new SportKa model through the controversy it generated:
[O]ne advertising executive insisted that Ford was protesting too much. "No publicity is bad publicity and the cynical part of me thinks that this 'leaking' was intended all along," he said. "It's got them terrific media coverage, after all."
The alternative concept supposedly chosen by Ford — a clip that shows a SportKa's hood automatically flying open to deflect (and kill) a pigeon attempting to land on it — was found scarcely less offensive by animal rights groups.

For those concerned about the cat depicted in the SportKa clip, Ford maintains: "The action in the video clip was totally computer generated, and we would like to assure you that no animal was harmed in its making."

[rkmsuf]

You mean like this?

hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ray5rtU87o

lol

[KWhit]

You mean like this?

hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ray5rtU87o


I don't find that funny at all.

*shurg*

[Eaglesfan27]

I don't find that funny at all.

*shurg*

Me neither.

[BrianD]

You mean like this?

hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ray5rtU87o
lol

That is a very sad response.

[nole4sho]

Am I the only one who wishes Noop would just say what the fuck is on his mind instead of these cryptic three word statements?

I am sure if he said what he really felt he would be banned. I am sure he agrees with most if not all of what you all have been saying...

[BrianD]

I am sure if he said what he really felt he would be banned. I am sure he agrees with most if not all of what you all have been saying...

Is it just me, or do these two sentences contradict each other?

[KWhit]

Yeah. That confused me too.

[Axxon]

Here's a hypothetical that I thought of when reading the following quote.

If Vick is convicted of conspiracy to engage in illegal gambling, the federal guidelines call for a sentence of between 10 and 16 months, Sadow said, noting the sentence can be split with a term of prison and home confinement. If Vick were to plead guilty and accept responsibility for this offense, Sadow said, his potential sentence under the guidelines would drop to six to 12 months.

Now, if he if he were sentenced to house arrest and he then were to buy the Georgia Dome and then live there would he be able legally to play in home games?

[Fidatelo]

I don't get what a quote about trouble shooting service problems has to do with Michael Vick, or how it led you to ponder the Georgia Dome thing.

[Axxon]

I don't get what a quote about trouble shooting service problems has to do with Michael Vick, or how it led you to ponder the Georgia Dome thing.

My copy and paste thing didn't work right. Oops. I have corrected the quote. I told you posting from work has its drawbacks.

[saldana]

espn is reporting that Roger Goodell has ordered Vick not to go to training camp until the league investigation is over...and the latest rumor was Aaron Brooks may be headed there.

[Grammaticus]

Heard about the Goodell thing, but Brooks, c'mon ATL can do better than that.

[larrymcg421]

Are they not even going to attempt contacting Culpepper? A hobbled Culpepper way past his prime is better than Aaron Brooks.

[saldana]

Are they not even going to attempt contacting Culpepper? A hobbled Culpepper way past his prime is better than Aaron Brooks.

my basset hound is better than aaron brooks.

[Fidatelo]

Joey Harrington is better than Aaron Brooks for crying out loud.

[JonInMiddleGA]

my basset hound is better than aaron brooks.

But your basset hound isn't (as far as we know) Mike Vick's second cousin.

[larrymcg421]

A basset hound taking over Vick's starting job would certainly be fitting.

[Fidatelo]

A basset hound taking over Vick's starting job would certainly be fitting.

And adorable!

[JeffNights]

hxxp://youtube.com/watch?v=o77coI3O9ps

THis is the news interview Portis did where he says "people need to mind dey bizness about Vick"

[JPhillips]

Huntin's legal.

[albionmoonlight]

Brooks is Vick's cousin. Since this whole mess involved Vick and his other cousin(s), you would think that Atlanta would want to avoid that.

(Although, in fairness to Brooks, he has always been a great guy in terms of community involvement, etc. Kind of the anti-Vick in that regard. Oh, and he sucks as a quarterback. So Atlanta may want to consider that, too.)

[JeeberD]

Joey Harrington is better than Aaron Brooks for crying out loud.

Let's not get crazy now...

[Brillig]

Brooks is Vick's cousin. Since this whole mess involved Vick and his other cousin(s), you would think that Atlanta would want to avoid that.

(Although, in fairness to Brooks, he has always been a great guy in terms of community involvement, etc. Kind of the anti-Vick in that regard. Oh, and he sucks as a quarterback. So Atlanta may want to consider that, too.)

So... not a complete anti-Vick then. :p

[stevew]

Steelers | Team visits Brooks
Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:33:07 -0700
John Clayton, of ESPN.com, reports the Pittsburgh Steelers have visited with free-agent QB Aaron Brooks (Raiders).


What.the.fuck.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Bwahahahaha, I'd love to see Aaron Brooks sign with the Steelers.

stevew's Steelers looking great in preseason

[stevew]

I can't forsee a situation where the team is like, "well, Ben is hurt, as is Charlie....but at least we got Aaron here and we hope to win today."

[rkmsuf]

I can't forsee a situation where the team is like, "well, Ben is hurt, as is Charlie....but at least we got Aaron here and we hope to win today."

what if you need a backwards pass?

[Ksyrup]

So is Blank going off right now, or is he giving the standard press conference? Anyone listening?

[KWhit]

Just turned it on.

[KWhit]

He's basically said that they need to let the legal system and the NFL investigation play out. He's been very non-committal; basically saying the "right" things.

[bulletsponge]

Heard about the Goodell thing, but Brooks, c'mon ATL can do better than that.

they couldnt do much better before :p


grrrr Brillig beat me too it

[flere-imsaho]

This is probably bad news for Vick: (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/31/sports/football/31vick.html?ref=sports&pagewanted=print)

Vick Co-Defendant Agrees to Plea Deal

By MICHAEL S. SCHMIDT

RICHMOND, Va., July 30 — Tony Taylor, one of the men indicted with Michael Vick last week on federal charges stemming from a suspected dog-fighting ring, pleaded guilty Monday and agreed to help prosecutors in the case.

Taylor, 34, pleaded guilty during a 9 a.m. hearing in the United States District Court here to conspiring to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and to sponsoring “a dog in an animal fighting venture.” He faces up to five years in prison and a $250,000 fine.

Taylor signed a statement describing his involvement with Vick and the others in arranging numerous illegal dog fights over state lines and operating “Bad Newz Kennels.” The statement appears to confirm much of what the government accused Vick and the others of doing in an indictment last week, and Taylor would be expected to testify to its details if he were called as a witness.

“This is a clear announcement by the government that they have Taylor lined up to give very damaging testimony against Vick and the other defendants,” said Daniel C. Richman, a professor at Columbia Law School and a former assistant United States attorney.

Vick, the star quarterback for the Atlanta Falcons, has been suspended by the National Football League while officials investigate the matter.

Vick and the others — Purnell A. Peace, 35, of Virginia Beach, and Quanis L. Phillips, 28, of Atlanta — are free on bond. Their trial is scheduled for Nov. 26. Taylor is free on bond pending sentencing, which was set for Dec. 14. All four men had pleaded not guilty last week.

Taylor said he was not guaranteed anything from the government for his cooperation.

The judge, Henry E. Hudson, questioned Taylor for more than 10 minutes about whether he understood the charges to which he was agreeing. Taylor said he fully understood.

While leaving the court, Taylor was swarmed by a reporters who peppered him with questions about Vick’s suspected involvement. Taylor did not utter a word as he entered a waiting car.

According to the indictment brought last week, Taylor killed at least two dogs that under-performed in dog fights. The indictment also said Taylor found the property in Surry County, Va., which Vick bought to use as the base for their operation.

[MikeVic]

What.the.fuck.

What the!! Do they really need him? Are they going to sign DE Will Smith and try to market a Bad Boys 3? I don't see any other reason. Just making Kordell hold the clipboard if you want another body there. ;)

[Eaglesfan27]

Kiss the remaining sponsorship deals and your NFL career goodbye, Mike.

[Kodos]

It's a shame. I used to really like him, and his career seemed promising following the playoff upset of the Packers in Green Bay. But I guess he is a collosal asshole, and it's caught up to him.

[flere-imsaho]

Maybe a lawyer can explain this, but I'm confused about this section:

Vick and the others — Purnell A. Peace, 35, of Virginia Beach, and Quanis L. Phillips, 28, of Atlanta — are free on bond. Their trial is scheduled for Nov. 26. Taylor is free on bond pending sentencing, which was set for Dec. 14. All four men had pleaded not guilty last week.

Taylor said he was not guaranteed anything from the government for his cooperation.

Why would he plead guilty, then? Is it possible his lawyer thinks the government may give him some leniency even when they've promised nothing?

[Eaglesfan27]

It's a shame. I used to really like him, and his career seemed promising following the playoff upset of the Packers in Green Bay. But I guess he is a collosal asshole, and it's caught up to him.

Yes, it is a shame. I remember that GB playoff game like it was yesterday. That was one of the more amazing playoff performances I've ever seen, and I was still a fan of his until I learned of this cruelty to animals.

[MikeVic]

Yes, it is a shame. I remember that GB playoff game like it was yesterday. That was one of the more amazing playoff performances I've ever seen, and I was still a fan of his until I learned of this cruelty to animals.

Yeah. :( You can tell by my online handle that I was a fan of his. Such a shame.

[Brillig]

Ah, the unsung world of the typo. From hxxp://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2954552


Georgia NAACP President Edward Dubose thanked Vick for his community service and the money and excitement he has brought to Georgia as a Falcon. Dubose said Vick is being prosecuted in the court of public opinion before he has had a chance to defend himself.

"We're not condemning bad behavior, but Michael Vick is innocent until proven guilty," Dubose said.

[Brillig]

Why would he plead guilty, then? Is it possible his lawyer thinks the government may give him some leniency even when they've promised nothing?

That's pretty much it - you throw yourself upon the mercy of the court in the hopes of getting off easy. Judges are allowed to consider 'mitigating factors' in sentencing, and this is a big one.

[stevew]

Isn't he a slightly better witness for the prosecution if he doesn't have to disclose that he took a deal in exchange for an easier sentance?

Also, I wonder if homeboy is going to have to go to the Witness Protection program. This case could be a lot larger than Vick before it's all said and done.

[Bee]

That's pretty much it - you throw yourself upon the mercy of the court in the hopes of getting off easy. Judges are allowed to consider 'mitigating factors' in sentencing, and this is a big one.

Makes you think though if this guy is willing to do this without any guarantees of leniency then the federal case is pretty damn solid.

[Eaglesfan27]

Makes you think though if this guy is willing to do this without any guarantees of leniency then the federal case is pretty damn solid.

Exactly. Not to mention with this guy's testimony combined with the history of federal prosecutors only taking cases they are fairly certain they will win, that Vick's chances just became even longer.

[Glengoyne]

Yeah. :( You can tell by my online handle that I was a fan of his. Such a shame.

You know you can have that changed right?

I'm not sure I've mentioned it here, but I did send an email to PETA that was along the lines of.

"If you freaks really start to harrass Michael Vick, I'll pony up a couple hundered dollars in donations."

[Kodos]

I say cover him in milkbones and put him in a room with some of his dogs for a few minutes.

[MikeVic]

You know you can have that changed right?

I'm not sure I've mentioned it here, but I did send an email to PETA that was along the lines of.

"If you freaks really start to harrass Michael Vick, I'll pony up a couple hundered dollars in donations."

Yes, I'm almost settled on a name I want changed to.

[rkmsuf]

Yes, I'm almost settled on a name I want changed to.


donkeydong12?

[stevew]

OokieFan

[duckman]

Ron_Ookie_Mexico7

[MikeVic]

Oh geez. No, a reference to one of my favourite shows, and one of my favourite characters/episodes on that show.

[cartman]

NoddaMikeVicFan?

[KWhit]

Oh geez. No, a reference to one of my favourite shows, and one of my favourite characters/episodes on that show.

Kramer?

[cartman]

ThePosterFormerlyKnownAsMikeVic?

[B & B]

TimCouch

[gkb]

TommyMaddox

[Kodos]

FozzieBear?

[MikeVic]

Maybe I'll use one of these instead.

[Pumpy Tudors]

LawrencePhillips?

[Kodos]

RyanLeaf?

ArtSchlichster?

[MikeVic]

Who the hell is Art Schlichster?

[Kodos]

Who the hell is Art Schlichster?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Schlichter

[MikeVic]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Schlichter

Interesting. I will not be changing my name to that.

I found this image linked from the Phil Donahue Show link on this guy's wiki page.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/79/Utfosp.jpg/200px-Utfosp.jpg

[Radii]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Schlichter

Washington Court House, Ohio, has to be one of the most unusual city names I've ever heard of.

[MikeVic]

Washington Court House, Ohio, has to be one of the most unusual city names I've ever heard of.

From wiki:


Washington C.H. is known for its unusual street grid layout. Typically, street grids are arranged east-west and north-south, especially in the midwest. In this case, the streets in the downtown area, centering on the courthouse building, are arranged northeast-southwest and northwest-southeast. This was done so that all four sides of the courthouse building would receive some sunlight every day of the year. In the traditional grid system, the north side of a building never receives direct sunlight during the fall and winter months.


Cool.

[Passacaglia]

So the Court House is their god? Those Ohioans are pretty weird.

[BrianD]

Maybe a lawyer can explain this, but I'm confused about this section:



Why would he plead guilty, then? Is it possible his lawyer thinks the government may give him some leniency even when they've promised nothing?

Isn't it possible that he isn't telling the truth?

[Mr. Wednesday]

Why would he plead guilty, then? Is it possible his lawyer thinks the government may give him some leniency even when they've promised nothing?
It looks to me as though it's not quite true that he got nothing out of it &mdash; according to the AP story, he's basically gotten his indictment frozen. He's getting immunity for his testimony, and anything that he testifies to could support additional charges against Vick and the other defendants. He might have made the deal precisely because he was expecting additional charges to be handed down.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Yes, this is correct. His benefit is two-fold. He is virtually guaranteed a lower sentence from the judge because of his plea and cooperation AND more importantly, the prosecution will not be including him in the additional charges which could add several years to the already 5-6 max years Vick and his other cohorts are facing.

[14ers]

I wonder how many Pro Athletes Vick can take down with him? Will Vick start naming names to save his own skin, or just out of spite?


Something tells me Vick will not be the only Pro Athlete to go down if he ends up in court.

[Kodos]

I hear you. [Looks in Peyton Manning's direction]

[MikeVic]

Yeah, there has to be more pro athletes invovled in dog fighting if it has become more prevalent in today's society... [Looks in Tom Brady's direction]

[QuikSand]

Yeah, there has to be more pro athletes invovled in dog fighting if it has become more prevalent in today's society... [Looks in Tom Brady's direction]

Brady seems more likely to be surrounded by cat fights.

[MikeVic]

Brady seems more likely to be surrounded by cat fights.

Hmm, you're right.

Maybe Jason Kendall and Julio Franco are involved then. It would explain their lack of production this season. Staying up late nights participating in the fights.

[rkmsuf]

They have concessions at these dog fights? And if so what's the big seller? Nachos? Colt 45 maybe? Cotton candy?

[MikeVic]

They have concessions at these dog fights? And if so what's the big seller? Nachos? Colt 45 maybe? Cotton candy?

I'd think BBQ would be a seller. Cotton candy is too sticky for these sorts of things. And you don't look "hard" while holding bright blue or pink fluffy stuff. Alcohol would definitely be a big seller. I think it would be stuff that you can eat with one hand. So nachos are out.

[albionmoonlight]

The short of federal sentencing is that it is very hard for a defendant to obtain a guarantee of a lesser sentence because so much of the sentence can be based on conduct related to your crime but not actually contained in your plea agreement or the jury verdict. (As a quick example, if you plead guilty to illegal possession of a firearm, and the government can show at sentencing that you used the firearm to facilitate drug transactions, then you can be sentenced as if you had plead guilty to the drug transactions--not simply for the firearm possession).

In addition, the judge maintains control of sentencing. The prosecutor can recommend things, and the judge normally listens, but the theory is that you are being sentenced by the court (i.e. the judicial arm of the state, not the executive arm). The prosecutor does not have the power to sentence--so he cannot promise to do or not do anything.

That said, judges and lawyers know that the system will break down if people are not rewarded for beneficial activity (mostly, helping bring down others and pleading guilty yourself to save the state the time and expense of a trial). Accordingly, it is very very likely that this co-defendant, by coming forward early and (assumedly) providing beneficial information and a willingness to testify, will end up with a lesser sentence than he would otherwise.

So, no guarantee, but if I were this guy's laywer, I'd have no problem rolling the dice for a good deal.

One thing that this plea signifies is that the govt. probably does have a solid case. You don't make any deal this quickly if you think that there is a chance that you could win at trial. You would at least take the time to investigate.

[sabotai]

Washington Court House, Ohio, has to be one of the most unusual city names I've ever heard of.

There's a Cape May Court House (town name) in NJ.

[Surtt]

Brady seems more likely to be surrounded by cat fights.

+1

[Grammaticus]

I'd think BBQ would be a seller. Cotton candy is too sticky for these sorts of things. And you don't look "hard" while holding bright blue or pink fluffy stuff. Alcohol would definitely be a big seller. I think it would be stuff that you can eat with one hand. So nachos are out.
Schrimp on a stick, maybe?

[MikeVic]

Schrimp on a stick, maybe?

I can see that too.

[Lathum]

Hush puppies?

[MikeVic]

Hush puppies?

Right on the money! Those would have to be there for sure.

[Mr. Sparkle]

They have concessions at these dog fights? And if so what's the big seller? Nachos? Colt 45 maybe? Cotton candy?

TAMALE!!!!

[MikeVic]

I know they definitely wouldn't have hot fudge chocolate sundaes. Those are a messy food.

[st.cronin]

You probably wouldn't see a sushi bar, either.

[Fidatelo]

umm....

hot dogs?

[MikeVic]

umm....

hot dogs?

I'm including that under BBQ. But posting the name "hot dogs" is appropriate for this thread. Kudos.

[Karlifornia]

Definitely need foods that leave a hand free for operating the rape stand.

[rkmsuf]

TAMALE!!!!

They brought in a ringer. Little Jerry!

[MikeVic]

What if a similar situation occured at one of these dog fights?

[sabotai]

Any thoughts on what McNabb said about the Vick case?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/01/AR2007080102193.html

[Noble_Platypus]

He is an ass.

[cartman]

I'm sure Mad Dog 20/20 will be at the concession stand as well.

[miked]

hxxp://www.vickdogchewtoy.com/

hxxp://www.deezteez.com/menstshirts/ron-mexicos-dog-training-shirt_142.html?cpe=dT0yJmNwPVJvbitNZXhpY28mcz1Hb29nbGUrQWR3b3Jkcw%3D%3D

I'm buying the second for my Falcons home games!

[DaddyTorgo]

ESPN is reporting Vick's other 2 co-defendents scheduled hearings to enter plea agreements.

byebye Mike

[Young Drachma]

Ugh.

[Atocep]

ESPN is reporting Vick's other 2 co-defendents scheduled hearings to enter plea agreements.

byebye Mike

Vick reportedly has a plea offer on the table and has until Friday to accept it. If he doesn't he's going to be served with another indictment.

[DaddyTorgo]

Vick reportedly has a plea offer on the table and has until Friday to accept it. If he doesn't he's going to be served with another indictment.

course if he accepts a plea he'll end up with an NFL-suspension anyways (hopefully long-term)

[Honolulu_Blue]

Depending on the deal on the table, if I were him, I think I'd take it. With the other three guys already have accepted their plea bargains, you have to imagine the Feds have a pretty strong case. I also imagine that the deal for the last guy in wont be quite as sweet as it was for the first guy.

[StarBuck]

Yes, it is a shame. I remember that GB playoff game like it was yesterday. That was one of the more amazing playoff performances I've ever seen, and I was still a fan of his until I learned of this cruelty to animals.

Same in our house. In fact we had a little Vick figurine made by some artist. I admired his leadership and talent. Now I hope he goes to jail for a long time. Waste of a life.He did not need to live like a thug, and he crossed the line and was into the sadistic abuse of many, many innocent lives. Poor things.
No excuse for his behavior.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Is the figurine now a chew toy?

[miami_fan]

FIGHT IT MIKE! SHOW 'EM YOU AIN'T NO PUNK! SHOW 'EM YOU ARE HARDCORE


Acutally he may want to throw himself on the mercy of the court. I think he is screwed. I just want to see the circus a trial would be.;)

[Bee]

If Vick does reach a plea agreement, would he still face a harsher sentence than the others since he is the one that allegedly bankrolled the whole operation?

[spleen1015]

The government shouldn't even let him plea out of it. Get his ass good.

[albionmoonlight]

If Vick does reach a plea agreement, would he still face a harsher sentence than the others since he is the one that allegedly bankrolled the whole operation?

Impossible to say at this point. The way federal sentencing works is that you are found guility or plead guilty to a crime.

Then, the probation office researches the case and makes a recommendation to the judge about your sentence based on a number of factors, including your criminal history, and your role in the offense. The judge then decides the sentence based in large part on that recommendation.

From what we know now, I think that it is impossible to know what his sentence might be if he does plead guilty.

[Noble_Platypus]

It would be poetic justice if he ended up in prison with the "big dogs" there taking a bite out of his ass, dont you think?

[StarBuck]

It would, heh.
They should make him fight them, and if he loses or doesn't fight well, string him up and taser his ass, dunk his head in a bucket, put him in a sack and use him for training, all those kind things he and his low life friends did to so many animals.

[Noble_Platypus]

Maybe they can make him use the rape stand :)

[Brillig]

Actually, I'd be a little surprised if Vick pled out at this point. With all three of his co-defendents pleading guilty, it seems like there's not much in the way of a deal available for Vick.

Furthermore, it's a dream situation for his lawyers - if Vick fights the case and wins, it's a miracle for the defense team. If he loses, well, the case was unwinnable anyway. There's no way for his lawyers to lose. And if there's one thing we've learned about Vick, it's that he's easily led by others. His lawyers will want to fight it, and it'd take a monumental inspiration of good sense on Vick's part to realise he's already screwed.

[MikeVic]

and it'd take a monumental inspiration of good sense on Vick's part to realise he's already screwed.

And we know how much he has of that...

[Surtt]

I looks like the whole "conspiracy indictment" was a way to tighten the screws.

Pleading guilt to the charges that carry a 5 year sentence might be had to do,
but compared to charges with a 20 year sentence and having 7 witnesses against you.......

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Actually, I'd be a little surprised if Vick pled out at this point. With all three of his co-defendents pleading guilty, it seems like there's not much in the way of a deal available for Vick.

Furthermore, it's a dream situation for his lawyers - if Vick fights the case and wins, it's a miracle for the defense team. If he loses, well, the case was unwinnable anyway. There's no way for his lawyers to lose. And if there's one thing we've learned about Vick, it's that he's easily led by others. His lawyers will want to fight it, and it'd take a monumental inspiration of good sense on Vick's part to realise he's already screwed.

Huh?? Where are you getting the idea that "his lawyers will want to fight it" and will simply make that the paramount goal over and above what it's in Vick's best interests? I think you're wrong on that one. As far as criminal law goes, it is far more common for the accused to disregard their lawyer's advice and decide to fight it rather than take a plea.

[GrantDawg]

Huh?? Where are you getting the idea that "his lawyers will want to fight it" and will simply make that the paramount goal over and above what it's in Vick's best interests? I think you're wrong on that one. As far as criminal law goes, it is far more common for the accused to disregard their lawyer's advice and decide to fight it rather than take a plea.

I could see a possiblity that the lawyers would want to continue to fight this. If it looks like the pea will not allow him to continue his career, then they might want to take the chance in trial. Having seven witnesses against him is a large uphill battle, but we haven't heard (nor has his attorneys for that matter) exactly what they have to say yet. It is possible that once they have their testimony, it will be easily impeachable. Remember, these guys aren't Mensa members, nor are they "clean." All the defense needs is for them to testify to dates and times for supposed actions that the defense can prove Vick couldn't have possibily been there. Little mistakes in their testimony can be blown into major lies, and these guys most likely will already have a hard time to being believable to a jury. It still doesn't look good, but just the witnesses against doesn't make this a slam-dunk. Just very close to one.

The harder thing to cover is any kind of money trail. If they have some signed receipts, witnesses of transactions outside of the accused, etc. Then he's toast.

[Bee]

I was listening to the John Riggins show on the way home yesterday and he had an interesting perspective. He had talked with an unnamed Federal prosecutor and the prosecutor had suggested the case against Vick might not be nearly as strong as some are thinking. The federal prosecutor even felt there was a good chance that Vick would walk. His opinion was that when the Feds have a lot of evidence against you, they will sit you down and walk you through all the evidence step by step even before discovery to scare you into a plea. With this case, they haven't done that...they've been strong arming the defendents and basically threatening with additional indictments but they haven't given any indication of what evidence they actually have. To him, this felt like someone with weak evidence trying to get a plea agreement done before getting to the discovery part and having to show how little evidence they actually have.

Now saying that, I don't buy it but I did think it was an interesting view and worth consideration (not just because it came from a federal prosecutor but also there's some logic to it). My opinion is if they didn't have anything there's no way the other 3 would have folded that fast. My guess is this federal prosecutor that Riggins had talked to might not have been aware of what was going on behind the scenes.

[st.cronin]

So the story is that Vick's lawyers are "talking with prosecutors about a possible deal." I think they're giving up, there's no way they can go back to the stance that he's completely innocent.

[molson]

So the story is that Vick's lawyers are "talking with prosecutors about a possible deal." I think they're giving up, there's no way they can go back to the stance that he's completely innocent.

There was a blurb on ESPN radio yesterday about there being a Friday deadline for a deal, or Vick would face new charges.

The negotiation point, apparently, was that Vick's attorney was looking for less than a year jail time, where the government wanted longer.

I don't see any way this goes to trial. Vick will have way too much at stake, which multiple felonies, and the government will be hapy with some moderate jail time (around a year) to save the expense and uncertainty of trial. High profile jail time for dogfighting case would be a big win for the government - no real gain in going for consecutive time across mulitple felonies, with could lock Vick up for decades.

[Synovia]

I was listening to the John Riggins show on the way home yesterday and he had an interesting perspective. He had talked with an unnamed Federal prosecutor and the prosecutor had suggested the case against Vick might not be nearly as strong as some are thinking. The federal prosecutor even felt there was a good chance that Vick would walk. His opinion was that when the Feds have a lot of evidence against you, they will sit you down and walk you through all the evidence step by step even before discovery to scare you into a plea. With this case, they haven't done that...they've been strong arming the defendents and basically threatening with additional indictments but they haven't given any indication of what evidence they actually have. To him, this felt like someone with weak evidence trying to get a plea agreement done before getting to the discovery part and having to show how little evidence they actually have.

Bee, have you read the indictment? <br><br> The specifics given in the indictment are more than enough to put him away. Its a pretty strong, almost air-tight case to start, before half the other members flipped. At this point, I'd say their case is rock solid.

[QuikSand]

Oh, man... just when he thought it couldn't get any worse...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293268,00.html

[molson]

Oh, man... just when he thought it couldn't get any worse...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293268,00.html

“Michael Vick has to stop physically hurting my feelings and dashing my hopes,”

[larrymcg421]

Vick with missiles is a pretty dangerous thought considering he has shown excellent aptitude at aiming for the enemy.

[oliegirl]

Just got this from the AJC:

Falcons QB Michael Vick likely to join co-defendants in plea deal this week
Facing the possibility of a new indictment, which includes racketeering charges, Falcons quarterback Michael Vick will most likely join his three co-defendants and agree this week to a plea deal with prosecutors in his federal dogfighting case, according to two people with knowledge of the case.

Link: http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/falcons/stories/2007/08/15/vick_0816.html?cxntnid=bn_2007-08-15_11_21_id233_e

[gstelmack]

You guys skipped right over the important part early: Jonathan Lee Riches.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I could see a possiblity that the lawyers would want to continue to fight this. If it looks like the pea will not allow him to continue his career, then they might want to take the chance in trial. Having seven witnesses against him is a large uphill battle, but we haven't heard (nor has his attorneys for that matter) exactly what they have to say yet. It is possible that once they have their testimony, it will be easily impeachable. Remember, these guys aren't Mensa members, nor are they "clean." All the defense needs is for them to testify to dates and times for supposed actions that the defense can prove Vick couldn't have possibily been there. Little mistakes in their testimony can be blown into major lies, and these guys most likely will already have a hard time to being believable to a jury. It still doesn't look good, but just the witnesses against doesn't make this a slam-dunk. Just very close to one.

The harder thing to cover is any kind of money trail. If they have some signed receipts, witnesses of transactions outside of the accused, etc. Then he's toast.

I could see that too. But that scenario actually involves the lawyers wanting to fight it because it is in Vick's best interests, not their interests as I was trying to point out.

[molson]

Bee, have you read the indictment? <br><br> The specifics given in the indictment are more than enough to put him away. Its a pretty strong, almost air-tight case to start, before half the other members flipped. At this point, I'd say their case is rock solid.

There's no sure things in a jury trial, especially ones with racial overtones.

[Synovia]

There's no sure things in a jury trial, especially ones with racial overtones.

Theres racial overtones here? <br><br>
Oh yeah, I forgot. Everytime a black celebrity gets charged with something, theres racism at work.

[molson]

Theres racial overtones here? <br><br>
Oh yeah, I forgot. Everytime a black celebrity gets charged with something, theres racism at work.

Sadly, yes. (not that there's racism at work, but that many potential jurors will think that)

From what I heard, this thing was pretty much divided among racial lines in the south. (with one view being that ONLY a wealthy black man would get the attention of the federal government in a dog-fighting incident.)

[st.cronin]

Theres racial overtones here? <br><br>
Oh yeah, I forgot. Everytime a black celebrity gets charged with something, theres racism at work.

Dogfighting. Its a black thing, you wouldn't understand.

[Noble_Platypus]

Dogfighting. Its a black thing, you wouldn't understand.

Funny, somehow I am supposed to be persuaded that dogfighting is a black thing and, even though its against the law and fucking terrible, that it shouldnt be punished because to do so is racial. Weel, you could say in Texas that dragging black guys behind a pickup truck is a "sport" down there, should that be allowed too?

2 guys, arabs or the like, were picked up in South Carolina close to the naval weapons station that I was once stationed at with pipe bombs and all of the sudden its because they are muslim they are being arrested and its discrimination etc, etc. They werent arrested because they are muslims, they were arrested because they HAD FUCKING PIPE BOMBS! Next to a military base no less. It drives me crazy that people are so caught up in the PC bullshit that they miss the fact that these people are lawbreakers.

[Eaglesfan27]

This could turn ugly.

[MikeVic]

Ok guys, lets get back to discussing what kind of food should be served at a dog fight!

[MikeVic]

I don't think we mentioned potato chips, but that's a one-handed snack.

[Buccaneer]

I am reminded of something I read that referenced an article in the new York Magazine written in 1791:

"We are again assaulted - the enemy is within. The spread of these practices [cockfighting, one of the worst of southern manly vices] will lead us gradually into habits of intemperance and therefore rob the entire nation of the honour which we formerly acquired."

[Crapshoot]

Fyi,
I think Michael Silver's article is a good read. I've never gotten why hunting for fun (as opposed to for food) is so much more kosher than this. The premise is still killing for enjoyment. I think Vick should have the book thrown at him, but Silver's points are fair.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AttKhoQM1L8yuHZdtkUS..NDubYF?slug=ms-morningrush081307&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


The franchise quarterback had just suffered the most crushing defeat of his career and he needed to get away from it all. So the peeved passer headed to the backwoods of Mississippi, where he cleared his head by killing a defenseless animal.

Sorry, PETA, but the gun-toting quarterback in question was not Michael Vick. In fact, it was Peyton Manning, whose aim with a hunting rifle apparently is as true as it is with the ol' pigskin.

In January 2003, a couple days after the Indianapolis Colts' 41-0 playoff annihilation by the New York Jets, Manning went to a 12,000-acre spread in central Mississippi owned by a family friend and got his mind right. As he told me later that year, "You're out there hunting for deer and ducks, just you and your gun. It's peaceful and totally quiet, no cell phones or anything like that. It's a good detox, the type of thing that gets your batteries re-charged."

In other words: Bad news, Bambi.

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This is not meant to be a shot at Manning, one of the sports world's good guys and, in fairness, one of the many NFL players who enjoys such recreational pursuits. There are plenty of reasons his behavior should not be compared to the alleged doings of the Train Wreck That Is Michael Vick, beginning with the fact that it was legal.

Some would also argue that it is more humane to put a bullet through an unsuspecting deer than to end the life of a canine in any of the hideous ways that the exiled Atlanta Falcons quarterback and his co-defendants are accused – though I'm not necessarily sure the eight-point buck with the 18-inch spread that Manning had mounted on the wall of his Indy home would see it that way.

The larger point is that, as much as we're tempted to react to the federal indictment of Vick as though it contained the most heinous accusations against a football player since O.J. Simpson's, there's a whole lot of hypocrisy here.

For one thing, animals are put to death on a continuous basis, as I was just telling one of my fellow pet-lovers at a neighborhood barbecue while wiping away the hamburger grease that had dripped onto my suede Pumas.

It also must be noted – and I am not defending the sick behavior of anyone who a jury decides has committed an offense such as electrocuting a pit bull – that there are NFL players who've been charged with having committed deplorable crimes against actual human beings. Some of them have even been convicted, yet most of us manage to let it go when they do good things for the home team or emerge as value picks in the fantasy draft.

During my recent training camp travels, I stood in the St. Louis Rams' practice bubble watching 10th-year defensive end Leonard Little hone his impressive pass-rushing skills. The workout, which had been moved inside because of concerns about the hellacious heat, was closed to the public, but I didn't see any picketers outside.

To jog your memory, Little was the player who in 1998 drove home after celebrating his birthday, ran a red light in downtown St. Louis and caused a collision that killed another motorist, 47-year-old Susan Gutweiler. A breath test measured his blood-alcohol level at 0.19 percent, nearly twice the legal limit, and he eventually pled guilty to involuntary manslaughter and spent 90 days in jail. When he returned to the Rams after an eight-game NFL suspension, Mothers Against Drunk Driving protested outside a Rams game, but few people outside of St. Louis seemed to notice, and Little went on to become one of the league's premier pass rushers.

It's a horrible story, but it might have contained at least a slightly redemptive touch had Little assuaged his guilt by urging others never to make the same mistake. He could have become a vocal and visible spokesman for consuming alcohol responsibly. He could have used his platform as a star athlete to try to save the lives of future drunk-driving victims.

Instead, Little drank and drove again. In 2004, Little was arrested for driving while intoxicated after being pulled over in Ladue, Mo., for speeding at 3:44 a.m. The arresting officer's affidavit stated that Little had "bloodshot, watery eyes and emitted an odor of alcohol;" that he had "attempted and failed three sobriety tests;" and that the player had "admitted to drinking alcoholic beverages."

Little, charged with a felony for driving while intoxicated as a persistent offender, was later acquitted after his lawyer convinced a jury that the arresting officer hadn't followed proper procedures in conducting the field-sobriety tests. Though another officer testified that he had administered a breath-alcohol test at the scene which showed that Little's blood-alcohol content was nearly double the legal limit of .08 percent, the test was inadmissible under Missouri law because of the unreliability of portable equipment. (After arriving at the police station, Little had refused to take a second breath-alcohol test.)

In other words, Little triumphed in court thanks to the legal equivalent of the Tuck Rule – only with a far more subdued reaction by the offended party (in this case, anyone with a brain and/or a conscience) than that displayed by Raider Nation.

I always thought that MADD, which tried to draw attention to the case, was a robust, publicity-savvy advocacy group. But, apparently, PETA is the big leagues, and MADD is rookie ball. Then again, everyone, from the anti-war movement to the salty pseudo-scientists trying to convince us that global warming is a hoax, is a lightweight compared to PETA.

I'm not mad at MADD; I'm simply pointing out that Little – and, for that matter, plenty of other NFL players whose behavior has been unconscionable – is allowed to ply his trade without getting shouted down by the masses.

Meanwhile Vick, a man with no prior criminal record who has not yet been tried or convicted, is the NFL's version of TB on a plane. Falcons owner Arthur Blank was ready to suspend his franchise quarterback before commissioner Roger Goodell intervened and banished Vick from training camp, with no resistance from the NFL Players Association, which is supposed to represent Vick's interests. Now Goodell is preparing to shelve Vick for the entire 2007 season. The fallen star may never play another NFL down.

The biggest reason this is happening so quickly, prematurely and intensely is because of us. We're the angry mob shouting for justice, albeit via Internet chat rooms and sports-talk radio; ultimately, we're the ones empowering Goodell to act, with PETA doing the bulk of the legwork.

The allegations against Vick and the resulting outcry are tarnishing the brand, and Goodell, the owners who employ him and the companies which supply the league's ad revenues are highly aware of the stakes. Meanwhile, in terms of public reproach, other players are getting away with … well, crimes like involuntary manslaughter.

This is not meant to be flippant or to suggest a value judgment in any way, but it could be argued that right now, an NFL player would be less stressed about going on trial for domestic abuse than he would for dogfighting.

I can't predict whether another NFL player will follow Vick into court, but I can tell you that he's not the only one caught up in the animal-fighting culture. One of the league's best role models, New Orleans Saints running back Deuce McAllister, concedes that the problem is more widespread than some outsiders may believe. "If you look at the big picture, cockfighting just got banned in Louisiana," he said last Thursday. "That helps put all of this in perspective."

When I asked McAllister, a native of tiny Lena, Miss., if he'd ever been invited to a dogfight, he laughed and said, "Come on, I'm from the country."

Now think about this: There is a player on an NFL roster with an image of two dogs fighting tattooed on his lower back. If PETA figures out who he is, this could add new meaning to the term "bad ink."

For what it's worth, the player in question is from the South, but his name is not Michael Vick.

If that disappoints you, take heart: It's not Peyton Manning, either.

[Crapshoot]

Funny, somehow I am supposed to be persuaded that dogfighting is a black thing and, even though its against the law and fucking terrible, that it shouldnt be punished because to do so is racial. Weel, you could say in Texas that dragging black guys behind a pickup truck is a "sport" down there, should that be allowed too?

2 guys, arabs or the like, were picked up in South Carolina close to the naval weapons station that I was once stationed at with pipe bombs and all of the sudden its because they are muslim they are being arrested and its discrimination etc, etc. They werent arrested because they are muslims, they were arrested because they HAD FUCKING PIPE BOMBS! Next to a military base no less. It drives me crazy that people are so caught up in the PC bullshit that they miss the fact that these people are lawbreakers.

I don't disagree with you (race shouldn't be a factor), but lets not pretend race doesn't play a role in this country - look at the sentencing guidelines on crack vs cocaine to take on example.

[gstelmack]

1) That article says nothing about whether or not Peyton Manning ate the deer. Plenty of deer and duck hunters eat what they kill. I actually agree that hunting for sport only is deplorable, but lots of hunters don't hunt just for sport.

2) I cringe every time I hear Leonard Little's name in conjunction with the Rams and agree that he should not be in football. I thought his 90-day sentence was absurd to begin with. This was more a media problem who decided not to turn it into the big story it really was.

3) I hope the Vick case cracks this whole thing wide open. I'd have no problem with more guys involved in this going down.

[Buccaneer]

I am not a hunter nor had any interest to do such a thing but I believe there is a difference between an activity that is licensed by the state vs. one that is in violation of federal laws.

[Synovia]

FWIW, there have been several black athletes, who right after the vick thing started, made comments about Dogfighting being a black thing. Most of them have recanted since public oppinon chimed in.
<br><br>Leonard little is scum, yes, but the whole problem is that he wasnt convicted. The fact that you can refuse a breathalizer and get off is ridiculous.
<br><br>
Theres a huge difference between shooting a dear, and caging and beating a dog for its entire life. One is a single act, the other is a chain of cruelty. Personally, I dont know anyone who hunts and doesnt eat what they kill.

[Crapshoot]

1) That article says nothing about whether or not Peyton Manning ate the deer. Plenty of deer and duck hunters eat what they kill. I actually agree that hunting for sport only is deplorable, but lots of hunters don't hunt just for sport.

2) I cringe every time I hear Leonard Little's name in conjunction with the Rams and agree that he should not be in football. I thought his 90-day sentence was absurd to begin with. This was more a media problem who decided not to turn it into the big story it really was.

3) I hope the Vick case cracks this whole thing wide open. I'd have no problem with more guys involved in this going down.

1. G, I thought I made that distinction clear in my briefing at the top of the quote - I think hunting for food is justifiable. I can't say I like it, but as I eat meat, I'd be a hypocrite to scorn it. The hunters (for sport) here who bash Vick just strike me as remarkably full of shit.

[Crapshoot]

I am not a hunter nor had any interest to do such a thing but I believe there is a difference between an activity that is licensed by the state vs. one that is in violation of federal laws.

Bucc, as a libertarian, do you really want to argue that the federal government is the correct arbitrer of morality? Marijuana is illegal while cigarettes are allowed, primary because of the large tobacco plantations and political will of the latter - I'd say the morality difference between the two is similar. We've had all sorts of ridiculous laws in this country (Slavery/Prohibition/etc etc) - in what is essentially a moral discussion, the law is not enough of a differentiator.

[Crapshoot]

Theres a huge difference between shooting a dear, and caging and beating a dog for its entire life. One is a single act, the other is a chain of cruelty.

Agreed - but hunting for sport is still murder for entertainment. That's cruelty by any measure.

[BrianD]

The article seems to be saying that people shouldn't be outraged by Vick's dogfighting situation because they aren't outraged enough by drunk driving or domestic abuse. I don't see where one requires the other. Deciding the appropriate level of outrage for these crimes should be done on an individual basis.

I also don't get the connection to hunting. I really don't like hunting for sport or for trophies, but it doesn't seem to be nearly in the same league as breeding and training a dog to be full of aggression and hate and then letting it get torn apart by another dog trained to be the same way. That is a horrible life for a dog followed by a horrible and painful death.

[rkmsuf]

I have a big complex up here teaching deer to shoot guns. Should provide a whole new dimension to hunting.

[Travis]

I'm not a hunter, but agree mostly with the for food vs for sport argument.

That said, dog fighting as in the Vick case would be more like hunting for sport, but shooting out one leg at a time, dragging out the death, making the animal suffer for a long period of time (think of all the "training" these dogs go through) before finally killing the animal.

I may not agree with hunting for fun, but for the most part, unless the hunter is rather sadistic, it's still not on the same level as dog fighting.

[Bee]

Bee, have you read the indictment? <br><br> The specifics given in the indictment are more than enough to put him away. Its a pretty strong, almost air-tight case to start, before half the other members flipped. At this point, I'd say their case is rock solid.


Yes I have read the indictment. And like I said, I don't buy the case that was being made on the radio. While the indictment goes into specific events, etc it doesn't specify the evidence of these events. The prosecutor that Riggins had talked with seemed to think that a good defense lawyer could tear up the federal witnesses by bringing to light all of their past criminal activities and he suspects the other evidence was a little weak which is why the Federal prosecutor is pressing for the plea agreements before having to present the discovery to the defense lawyers. Again, I don't really agree with what they were saying, but I did think it was an interesting view.

[gstelmack]

1. G, I thought I made that distinction clear in my briefing at the top of the quote - I think hunting for food is justifiable. I can't say I like it, but as I eat meat, I'd be a hypocrite to scorn it. The hunters (for sport) here who bash Vick just strike me as remarkably full of shit.

My point was nothing in the article says that Peyton Manning hunted for sport only. To me, that's a CRITICAL distinction in the point he's trying to make, and the article falls apart for me because he ignores that key point.

[larrymcg421]

Whether hunting for food or sport (which I think is stupid), it is not illegal. Vick knew what he was doing was against the law. Our society has bestowed certain protections on dogs (and cats, for example) that have not been bestowed on deer or other animals. Now, if Vick thinks this is unfair, it's certainly within his right to protest these laws, but the NFL doesn't have to support or condone that protest.

[John Galt]

Yes I have read the indictment. And like I said, I don't buy the case that was being made on the radio. While the indictment goes into specific events, etc it doesn't specify the evidence of these events. The prosecutor that Riggins had talked with seemed to think that a good defense lawyer could tear up the federal witnesses by bringing to light all of their past criminal activities and he suspects the other evidence was a little weak which is why the Federal prosecutor is pressing for the plea agreements before having to present the discovery to the defense lawyers. Again, I don't really agree with what they were saying, but I did think it was an interesting view.

I think it is an interesting point, but I would expect prosecutors to behave differently with Vick because Vick isn't a normal defendant. Unlike 99% of the defendants being prosecuted at the federal level, Vick has money to burn for his legal defense. And Vick also has very different motivations (preserving his reputation and career) than most defendants and those motivations may make him less likely to deal. While a prosecutor might walk through the evidence with an average defendant if the government had a strong case, they would be less inclined to do so with Vick because the government doesn't want to show its hand too early. So, I wouldn't read anything into the handling of Vick versus an average defendant - Vick and his case are anything but average.

[Buccaneer]

Bucc, as a libertarian, do you really want to argue that the federal government is the correct arbitrer of morality? Marijuana is illegal while cigarettes are allowed, primary because of the large tobacco plantations and political will of the latter - I'd say the morality difference between the two is similar. We've had all sorts of ridiculous laws in this country (Slavery/Prohibition/etc etc) - in what is essentially a moral discussion, the law is not enough of a differentiator.

I don't know how to respond to your reply. The laws are what they are, regardless if one believes that an entity has exceeded its authority in such areas. It is clear that the states make hunting legal, within their own set of rules, regardless of motivation. The Feds, and I assume the states as well, have laws stating that dogfighting and racketeering are illegal.

[sabotai]

I also don't get the connection to hunting.

I understand why people would make the connection, but I don't agree with it. Hunting usually involve people hunting a wild animal, and in most cases, an animal that is natural prey and knows to get the fuck away when danger is near (and views a human as a danger). Dog fighting is the training of domesticated animals. To me, the wild vs. domesticated point is a big deal and what keeps me from objectively connecting the two.

To me, a much better comparison would be people who hunt elephant for fun, or another animal that does not have a natural preditor (at least doesn't run. Where is the sport is seeing an elephant, standing there and just shooting? Where is the "hunting" part of that?). Or comparing it one of those places where you essentially hunt domesticated animals (watching a video of those places actually disturbs me more than videos of dog fighting.).

But the blanket connection of hunting wild animals vs. fighting domesticated animals is a stretch for me, but I can see where people are coming from with that.

[rkmsuf]

this ever happen during dog fighting?

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1727/tigervselephantfv4.gif

[larrymcg421]

The domestic abuse comparisons are idiotic. The reporters attempting this tactic don't realize theyre being hypocritical themselves. It's not like we see daily articles or columns about this subject. Usually we get a report about the arrest and maybe one follow up mention of the sentence/decision. If the sportswriters really gave a shit about domestic violence, we'd be hearing about it all the time and not just in response to the Michael Vick story.

Also, the outrage does have something to do with his popularity. I'm pretty sure there'd be quite the controversy if Peyton Manning beat his wife.

[Kodos]

this ever happen during dog fighting?

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1727/tigervselephantfv4.gif


I gotta believe that this encounter did not end well for the guy on the elephant...

[MikeVic]

I gotta believe that this encounter did not end well for the guy on the elephant...

The tiger's just playing.

[flere-imsaho]

That's one hell of a vertical.

Edit: I wonder what the elephant's thinking. "ohshit ohshit ohshit... Oh nevermind, he's going for the doofus on my back."

[flere-imsaho]

Dola,

I take it back. Apparently the elephant saves the guy's life (http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/html/news/2004/040609_joymala.htm).

[Axxon]

Dola,

I take it back. Apparently the elephant saves the guy's life (http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/html/news/2004/040609_joymala.htm).

That's what I love about elephants. Besides man, no other animals really can fuck with the elephants. When I read your first reply I doubted the elephant was thinking 'oh shit' but rather, 'what does this silly cat think she's doing?'

I was kinda surprised the elephant was chasing t0he tiger but man, I'd have love to have seen that footage. :D

[Buccaneer]

If you side with the dogs over Vick, here's a good picture

hxxp://steakandcheese.com/downloads/Dogs_Get_Revenge.jpg

Edit: NSFW

[DaddyTorgo]

according to CNN vick is considering whether to accept a plea that includes 1 year jailtime but is waiting to hear from the NFL how it would affect his career. same article says that if he doesn't, a superseeding indictment will be issued with RICO charges.

man...part of me hopes he doesn't take the plea and gets the book thrown at him. or the govt. pulls the plea off the table so they can make an example of someone in the case.

[Noble_Platypus]

Me too. He is out this year and next even if he does take the plea deal, but still, I would like to see him get hit with the additional charges