Which School Should Join the Big 10?

[tarcone]

I just finished watching ESPNs College Football Live. Their lead discossion was "which school should the Big 10 go after." The Big 10 is about to launch their network so they want to widen their regional base. Also, The Admins want a Playoff game for football and the money that will bring in. They talked about 5 institutions. Here they are and my thoughts.

1) Iowa State-- No way this should be the school. Already have a school from Iowa. Not a big enough fan base.

2) Colorado-- I like this pick. It widens the Big 10 area from the east coast to the Rockies. The talking heads, schools already recruit here and would do so more. I think it is too far from Penn State to be considered.

3) Rutgers-- East coast appeal. Up and coming program in football. Good athletics overall.

4) Syracuse-- This has been the school most talked about. They would be a good fit. East coast connection , as well as , a New York school.

5) Pitt-- Natural rivalry for Penn State. western Penn. school located in between Penn State and Ohio State. Good athletics.

Of course they talked about Notre Dame. But they will never join.

I like Colorado, Rutgers or Pitt.

Whats your opinion?

[Huckleberry]

Missouri

[SnDvls]

so if they have a 12th team are they still gonna be the Big 10?

[dervack]

I would guess Missouri too.

[tarcone]

Missouri wasnt discussed. I agree this would be a good choice. Not sure why they werent mentioned. And my guess is yes they will still be the Big 10.

[A-Husker-4-Life]

I'll go with Nebraska, I heard a rumor that it may happen..

[Kodos]

Uggh. Not Nebraska. Honestly, I would like to see Notre Dame. I realize that will not happen. So next I would say Pitt or Syracuse.

[Passacaglia]

Marshall would be interesting.

[Passacaglia]

But since they're all about state schools, West Virginia might be a better fit. Not sure about the academics of it, though.

[Klinglerware]

But since they're all about state schools, West Virginia might be a better fit. Not sure about the academics of it, though.

Since the Big Ten members also cooperate as part of an academic research consortium, it is presumed that they will lean towards research universities that have the academic stature and resources that are at least in the ball park of the current membership.

(When I mean academic stature, I'm referring to the stature of the school in the context of graduate programs/faculty research. Undergraduate excellence doesn't matter as much so long as the research programs are productive.)

[Passacaglia]

Since the Big Ten members also cooperate as part of an academic research consortium, it is presumed that they will lean towards research universities that have the academic stature and resources that are at least in the ball park of the current membership.

(When I mean academic stature, I'm referring to the stature of the school in the context of graduate programs/faculty research. Undergraduate excellence doesn't matter as much so long as the research programs are productive.)

Right -- I just don't know how West Virginia matches up with that.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I think they're going to add another team and then change the name of the conference to the Big 12. I think that would make the most sense. I have an idea for a school they could go after, even though it apparently wasn't mentioned. I think they should try to get Northwestern to join the conference. They're in the midwest along with most of the other Big Ten schools, so it's the most logical thing.

[tarcone]

No worse then Iowa State I would imagine.

[Klinglerware]

Right -- I just don't know how West Virginia matches up with that.

One strike against WVU is that they are not an AAU member. All of the Big 10 schools and most of the other candidates mentioned are members.

On the other hand, Notre Dame is not an AAU member either, but they are considered a dream target for the Big 10...

[st.cronin]

What about Louisville?

[Crapshoot]

Since the Big Ten members also cooperate as part of an academic research consortium, it is presumed that they will lean towards research universities that have the academic stature and resources that are at least in the ball park of the current membership.

(When I mean academic stature, I'm referring to the stature of the school in the context of graduate programs/faculty research. Undergraduate excellence doesn't matter as much so long as the research programs are productive.)

Well, the Big 10 has schools like Michigan and Northwestern, which are genuine academic powerhouses - and schools like Ohio State and Iowa, which are ... not. I'd guess that they don't really care that much.

[General Mike]

Rutgers.

[timmynausea]

Considering they primarily want to expand their TV markets, I don't think Pitt (or WVU) makes much sense, although WVU has 3 of the top ten rated games in ESPN history. Penn State already gives them the Pennsylvania market. I think Missouri (St. Louis) and Rutgers (NJ/NYC) make the most sense as far as getting the conference into another big TV market. I don't know about Missouri, but Rutgers is a good academic school as well.

Nebraska could make sense from a traditional standpoint. It'd put 4 of the best all time programs in one conference and would make sense geographically. I don't know if it'd make as much sense for helping the Big Ten Network to grow, though.

[Klinglerware]

Well, the Big 10 has schools like Michigan and Northwestern, which are genuine academic powerhouses - and schools like Ohio State and Iowa, which are ... not. I'd guess that they don't really care that much.

OSU and Iowa have excellent grauduate programs and a research focus. Like I said, undergraduate reputation matters less since research grant generation is what really pays the bills. For example OSU's athletic program generates $90 million dollars in revenue per year. OSU's research programs generate $500 million.

That's why academic research matters...

[timmynausea]

A couple more possibilities - Syracuse and Boston College - I don't think are as viable. They both have ties to major markets (Boston and New York City), but neither market has a reputation for caring about those schools or their athletic programs that much.

[Logan]

I think if they do choose to expand, once Notre Dame rejects them, Rutgers will be the choice. More exposure to NYC than Syracuse provides and a major research institution. Not to mention a football program on the way up instead of down.

My feelings are split. If we get an invite, it would, and should, be accepted within 30 seconds. We won't need to hear any more bitching about our schedule, bowl tie-ins will significantly improve, and it will be a great benefit to the school from an academic perspective, not to mention monetarily. And being associated with the consortium may be what finally gets the state to fund the school appropriately.

I do believe in the future of the Big East, and that it could be special despite the small size. However, with the current condition, we're very unstable and ripe to get cherry-picked by other leagues. If Rutgers passes on the invite, Syracuse will take it and the conference will be screwed.

[st.cronin]

I don't think even Rutgers would really enhance the metro New York market that much.

[sooner333]

What about Louisville?

I was thinking Louisville as well. It's a logical next step geographically, since it is near Indiana and Ohio.

However, if this is about media, then the team will probably be someone like BC or Rutgers. Perhaps someone like Colorado could do the same thing as well. Missouri would bring in KC and STL too.

[st.cronin]

Even Cincinatti would make more sense to me than Rutgers or Syracuse.

[PSUColonel]

1. Notre Dame

2. Pitt

3. Syracuse

4. Rutgers


After that, forget it.

[molson]

I don't think even Rutgers would really enhance the metro New York market that much.

Syracuse is much more established in the NYC market than Rutgers is - it'll take more than a pretty good fooball season from Rutgers to change that

[Solecismic]

Academics are a major factor - the Big Ten loves its reputation for combining athletics with international-caliber research universities. Here's a breakdown of ARWU rankings and conference:

Top 50

Big Ten -Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois, Minnesota, Northwestern, Penn State
Pac 10 - Stanford, California, UCLA, Washington, USC
ACC - Duke, Maryland
Big East - Rutgers, Pittsburgh
Big 12 - Colorado, Texas
SEC -Vanderbilt
Mountain West - San Diego State

51-100

Big Ten - Ohio State, Purdue, Michigan State, Iowa, Indiana
Pac Ten - Arizona, Arizona State
Big 12 - Texas A&M
SEC - Florida
ACC - North Carolina
Mountain West - Utah
CUSA - Rice

All 11 Big Ten schools are in the top 100, world-wide.

I don't think the Big Ten wants to raid the Big 12. Colorado would be nice, but it's too far away.

I don't think the Big Ten could consider a school that doesn't already play I-A football. It takes too much time to bring a school up, and that would come at a heavy cost as well.

Notre Dame isn't interested. Syracuse is another private school that's close to Notre Dame in terms of academic reputation and emphasis within America (neither have as much internationally). But it's a small television market. The Big Ten already has Northwestern, and would consider a private school.

Pitt and Rutgers are both very strong candidates. Pitt has the advantage of being in the same geographic region and bringing in a big-city television market. It, historically, was a big rival for Penn State. Rutgers brings in the lucrative NYC market.

West Virginia and Louisville are both in the 401-500 range on the ARWU rankings. That's just not strong enough. Cincinnati is in the 151-200 range, and could be on the distant radar. None of the MAC schools have the required reputation or market.

Here's how I would rank the schools if I were making the decision:

1. Notre Dame - long-time natural rival, in region but gets national attention.
2. Pittsburgh - fits in perfectly, already a rival for Penn State.
3. Rutgers - difficult geography, but NYC market would be a huge coup.
4. Syracuse - too small a market, not a strong natural rival.

[Passacaglia]

How about Michigan A and Michigan B? :)

[Jonathan Ezarik]

As a Penn State fan, I would love it if Pitt joined the Big Ten. We need an actual rival. Michigan State does nothing for me. Too bad it'll never happen.

[stevew]

If it were Pitt, i might actually start to care about college football. Now that they don't play PSU as often, I don't really care as much. IIRC Pitt is a decently regarded educational institute, so they'd fit in.

[stevew]

dola,

How is it that there is basically no huge college in NYC with a division one Football Program?

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Michigan State?





:D

[st.cronin]

dola,

How is it that there is basically no huge college in NYC with a division one Football Program?

West Point is just a short car ride from NYC. I think for a long time they were the metro area's "home team."

[cthomer5000]

dola,

How is it that there is basically no huge college in NYC with a division one Football Program?

Probably simply the cost of real estate has kept any giant college from being right IN the city. That and huge competition for entertainment has just largely made college athletics an afterthought in the area. I can think of very few sort of institutions of college sport around here. St. John's and Seton Hall (NJ) basketball have consistently been the biggest draws in the area in my lifetime, but neither of those has been HUGE.

[Klinglerware]

dola,

How is it that there is basically no huge college in NYC with a division one Football Program?

Columbia and Fordham were the huge football schools in the first half of the 20th century. Columbia de-emphasized its program upon the formation of the Ivy League and Fordham dropped its program for many years until coming back in the late 80s/early 90s as a 1-AA program.

Rutgers didn't play a "big-time" schedule until the late 70s, so Army was the only school in the area that was playing major college football consistently. A sizeable percentage of college football fans in the city ended up rooting for Notre Dame, possibly due to the religious/ethnic affiliation link...

[st.cronin]

NYU actually did have a football program once upon a time, and also a very successful basketball program, but I think their athletic department was undone by various scandals.

[Klinglerware]

NYU actually did have a football program once upon a time, and also a very successful basketball program, but I think their athletic department was undone by various scandals.

Yes, NYU did have a program. I think they pulled the plug because of cost...

[SteelerFan448]

I would love Pitt football to go to the Big Ten, but would hate basketball to leave the Big East. Pitt is finally getting some top recruits, if Wannstedt can put it together, they should eventually become a solid team that makes a bowl nearly every year. However, you're recruits can look great on paper, but if you finish 6-6 it means nothing. Big Tenwould definitely help Pitt's attendence and would give a big city to the Big Ten (even though there are a lot of PSU fans in the area).

Another consideration is recruiting. PSU and Michigan have recruited pretty well from SW PA, which is one of the top HS football areas in the nation. Obviously Pitt gets recruits from here, but with teams like OSU, MSU, Iowa, etc. coming in, the recruits from this area would start to branch out further.

[Greyroofoo]

hell they scould kick seom of the bottom ring schools outs

[Logan]

Syracuse is much more established in the NYC market than Rutgers is - it'll take more than a pretty good fooball season from Rutgers to change that

Syracuse's share of the NYC market comes from their success in basketball, not football. Rutgers pulled in huge ratings in NY last year that Syracuse has never come close to sniffing.

Probably simply the cost of real estate has kept any giant college from being right IN the city. That and huge competition for entertainment has just largely made college athletics an afterthought in the area. I can think of very few sort of institutions of college sport around here. St. John's and Seton Hall (NJ) basketball have consistently been the biggest draws in the area in my lifetime, but neither of those has been HUGE.

Tying into what I said above...NY is a pro football city and will really always be one (ironic, considering they don't house any pro teams). There's a lot of interest in college basketball within the city because of how big the sport is in the communities and the teams being stocked with NYC talent. Despite Syracuse's past success, their football program was never thought of as "New York's." Rutgers made a major impact on NYC last season which is no small feat...whether that will keep up could be debated, but I'll bet on it. One thing is certain: a casual NY football fan or businessman will make the 30 mile drive or take the 45 minute train to New Brunswick, but no one is driving 250 miles to upstate New York in the dead of winter to watch Syracuse play.

[Logan]

Another thing...Boeheim will fight like hell and then threaten retirement if they try to make this move.

[Joe]

Pitt

[Izulde]

Pitt and I don't consider anything else even close. It's too perfect a fit.

BTW, the Cathedral of Learning where they house the English classes at Pitt is one of the most beautiful academic buildings I've been in at a public university.

[vex]

Iowa State.

[Swaggs]

Pitt probably makes the most sense academically, but they will not add a market, as PSU is bigger in Pittsburgh (and Philly) and it is doubtful that Penn State would support their move. Travelling to Pittsburgh every other year would give the existing teams an added sell to W. PA recruits.

Here's an under the radar choice, but how about Maryland? Strong academically, an extension of the existing footprint, adds the Baltimore/DC recruiting area, and a good rival for PSU.

[BigDawg]

"Pitt and I don't consider anything else even close. It's too perfect a fit."

I agree 100% if you cant snag ND than Pitt fits , all the others dont make any sence to me.

[st.cronin]

Why would Maryland leave the ACC?

[SteelerFan448]

I was thinking Maryland too, but it doesn't make much sense to leave the ACC.

[HerRealName]

Pitt doesn't add a new TV market and the Big Ten Network is apparently the motivation behind the expansion talk.

Notre Dame is the only school that would make expansion worthwhile in my opinion and that ain't happening. I guess I could live with Nebraska or Maryland but they both seem like long shots.

[rowech]

Notre Dame is the natural choice and fit. I still think ND should accept the time has come but they won't and they'll reject the Big 10.

I'm going off the beaten path and say they might ask a MAC school. It has been rumored for years that Miami University has at least been talked to about joining the Big 10 and in the past five years, they have made massive enhancements to their facilities for sports and other areas. Their one problem, like most of the MAC schools, is their enrollment is about 15K less than the other Big10 schools.

[Daimyo]

Syracuse or Rutgers both sound good to me.

[st.cronin]

Missouri actually seems to make far and away the most sense. I'm not sure they'd leave the Big 12, but if they did, they could easily be replaced with, say, TCU or Tulsa.

[CU Tiger]

BC and Maryland neither would leave the ACC.
#1 because it is a better logistic fit for both
#2 Contractually it would cost either school over $100million to break their 2012 committment.

[henry296]

"The broader [the network] is distributed, the more value [expansion] has. We have eight states. With expansion, you could have nine," he said.

This is a quote from Jim Delaney in an ESPN article. This would rule out many of the teams that have been mentioned like Notre Dame or Pitt. Perhaps teams in New York, West Virginia, Virginia or Big 12 states might be the front runner.

[sooner333]

Missouri actually seems to make far and away the most sense. I'm not sure they'd leave the Big 12, but if they did, they could easily be replaced with, say, TCU or Tulsa.

I disagree. Any Big 12 North team is going to be pretty hard to replace because there aren't any other schools in that region to replace them with. You don't want to move OU or OSU to the North and split them up. Tulsa is way too small of a school--it is the smallest enrollment school in D-IA, if I remember correctly. TCU runs into the same problem with realignment with the North and South.

I guess you could pull Colorado State in to replace Mizzou, but that move isn't a lateral move by any means.

[st.cronin]

Those are good points, plus I don't see why Missouri would want to leave the Big 12.

I guess I'm left thinking Notre Dame or nothing.

[nilodor]

Wouldn't it be really tough to pull a team from the Big 12 or the ACC because they would need to steal another team from somewhere else so they can keep their championship games? Wouldn't they be looking to pull a team from a non BCS (TCU, Boise State?) conference or one without a championship game (Louisville, USF)?

[mckerney]

Of the teams mentioned I'd prefer Rutgers, though I'm really not much of a Big 10 Fan despite being a Gopher fan. Outside of Minnesota I'd much rather watch SEC, ACC or Big 12 football instead of the Big 10.

[Cuckoo]

Those are good points, plus I don't see why Missouri would want to leave the Big 12.

Money. My understanding is the Big 10 pays equally while the Big 12 doesn't, and the Big 10 has a higher-paying television contract. Not sure whether Missouri would leave, of course, but the dough could be a big reason they'd consider it if the opportunity was there.

[sooner333]

Money. My understanding is the Big 10 pays equally while the Big 12 doesn't, and the Big 10 has a higher-paying television contract. Not sure whether Missouri would leave, of course, but the dough could be a big reason they'd consider it if the opportunity was there.

Nah, the Big 12 pays pretty equally. Every bowl game is split 13 ways, with two equal shares to the participant in the game. This is for travel expenses...but Baylor still gets 1/13 of the BCS appearance.

The Big 10 may have a better TV deal, but the Big 12's has just gotten a lot better for basketball and they will have a good chance at getting on ESPN/ESPN2, while they will be stuck on the Big Ten Network in the Big Ten.

[Passacaglia]

This is a quote from Jim Delaney in an ESPN article. This would rule out many of the teams that have been mentioned like Notre Dame or Pitt. Perhaps teams in New York, West Virginia, Virginia or Big 12 states might be the front runner.

I disagree with that quote. I think the broader the network is, the more diluted it becomes. Of course, I'm a homer, living in Big Ten country pretty much all my life.

[sooner333]

I disagree with that quote. I think the broader the network is, the more diluted it becomes. Of course, I'm a homer, living in Big Ten country pretty much all my life.

I would probably agree with your sentiment, but the idea for this network is to get it on cable nationally. Right now nobody will carry this thing except some cable carriers in the Big 10 region. By expanding the region, maybe they get the network on cable in NYC or KC and STL or something. Pitt won't get that done. Heck, Notre Dame wouldn't either. But Rutgers, Syracuse, Boston College, Colorado, or Missouri would.

[rowech]

It's also about other the other schools getting into a state they aren't currently in. Schools like OSU and Penn State aren't going to want another school from that state in there. If Missouri were to join they could get into a new state to recruit that they're not super involved in now.

Notre Dame outweighs those concerns because of $$$. The other schools, I'm not sure about.

[RedKingGold]

Of course Notre Dame is the #1 choice, but Pittsburgh would be just as nice IMO. Rutgers wouldn't be that bad, but having Pittsburgh would mean a natural rival for PSU (because the rivalry with Michigan State sucks)

[st.cronin]

I would probably agree with your sentiment, but the idea for this network is to get it on cable nationally. Right now nobody will carry this thing except some cable carriers in the Big 10 region. By expanding the region, maybe they get the network on cable in NYC or KC and STL or something. Pitt won't get that done. Heck, Notre Dame wouldn't either. But Rutgers, Syracuse, Boston College, Colorado, or Missouri would.

Possibly true with Colorado or Missouri. But do people in NYC really watch Syracuse or Rutgers on tv? Do people in the northeast care about college football? Are people in Boston going to be more likely to watch Ohio State vs. Michigan just because BC already lost to both teams?

I know that almost everybody that works at espn went to Syracuse, so maybe there's something to that.

[Young Drachma]

I had no idea they were considering expansion, but the fact that Rutgers is seriously in this discussion is downright crazy to me. Not in a bad way. In a "I grew up 10 minutes from the RAC and remember 1-AA, Atlantic 10 Rutgers". The fact that they'd go from the A-10 to the Big 10 in less than 20 years...is just...wow.

It would probably be a big enhancement for them long-term and would improve their schedule immensely. Other than losing the ties to the teams in the Big East we've been playing for years..I don't really see a downside to this. Ok, I do. If they go to the Big Ten and suck at everything, that'd be really bad news. Really, really, really bad.

[Young Drachma]

Possibly true with Colorado or Missouri. But do people in NYC really watch Syracuse or Rutgers on tv? Do people in the northeast care about college football? Are people in Boston going to be more likely to watch Ohio State vs. Michigan just because BC already lost to both teams?

I know that almost everybody that works at espn went to Syracuse, so maybe there's something to that.

Northeastern folks (specifically in almost all of NJ, some of PA and MA) are notorious for packing stadiums of thousands of fans for high school games on Thanksgiving day. High school.

Northeastern folks care about sports just as much as anybody else. There just aren't the concentration of teams that you have elsewhere and among the ones that are good...very few are public schools, so it makes it harder for people to rally around them in the same way you get in other places.

I mean, how many D-1A programs are there the Boston-to-Philly corridor?
BC, Syracuse, Rutgers, Temple (ha). Not exactly a deluge of teams and among those, only Temple and Rutgers are public.

Am I forgetting anyone?

[rowech]

I'd take a MAC school before Rutgers.

[st.cronin]

Northeastern folks (specifically in almost all of NJ, some of PA and MA) are notorious for packing stadiums of thousands of fans for high school games on Thanksgiving day. High school.

Northeastern folks care about sports just as much as anybody else. There just aren't the concentration of teams that you have elsewhere and among the ones that are good...very few are public schools, so it makes it harder for people to rally around them in the same way you get in other places.

I mean, how many D-1A programs are there the Boston-to-Philly corridor?
BC, Syracuse, Rutgers, Temple (ha). Not exactly a deluge of teams and among those, only Temple and Rutgers are public.

Am I forgetting anyone?

There's no doubt in my mind that people in the Northeast are as sports mad as people anywhere. I just don't think they care about college football.

[Solecismic]

I have no confidence in the Big Ten leadership to make intelligent decisions. It's a decision that can't really be screwed up, unless they start a war with the Big 12 or compromise the academic reputation of the conference. But there are enough schools out there that fit the bill that I don't think they'd do it. Maybe they're holding out hope for Notre Dame.

Meanwhile, this Big Ten Network thing is a complete sham. It's not signed with any cable system around Ann Arbor, and Michigan's opener is scheduled on the network in just a month.

They're refusing placement on a sports tier, and we all know how well that went over for the NFL Network, which has ten times the cache. They've even got a web page up similar to the one the NFL Network ran, urging us to call the cable company. That's about as useful as a goal-line plunge on second-and-20.

[Logan]

There's no doubt in my mind that people in the Northeast are as sports mad as people anywhere. I just don't think they care about college football.

Sure they do, and that began to be shown with the ratings pulled in by Rutgers last year. Contrary to what you said earlier in the thread, there has never been a college team that NYC has cared about (despite Syracuse's past success), and it looks like Rutgers might fit that bill. The Rutgers-Louisville game was the 4th highest-rated ESPN college football game ever, and did a huge number in NY. People take notice of that.

Also, when references to the "NYC market" are made, keep in mind that this includes New Jersey. A big piece of the state falls under Cablevision, which means there's a lot of advertising dollars being thrown towards NJ viewers who have a lot of buying power.

[timmynausea]

If they go to the Big Ten and suck at everything, that'd be really bad news. Really, really, really bad.

That's what I was thinking. Rutgers is in great shape to become a perennial power in the Big East. Everything was up for grabs after the ACC raid, and WVU, Louisville and Rutgers have been the big winners. With the horribly timed coaching problems at Syracuse and, in my opinion, Pitt, the Scarlet Knights have moved right into the top 3 of BCS conference. That puts them a few crucial plays away from a BCS bid year in and year out just like last year. The Big East has fallen into place as a top heavy conference, and Rutgers is poised to rake in huge benefits as part of the top. Look at last year when 3 Big East teams were among the last handful or so of unbeatens in all of college football. I just think the odds for success are a lot lower in the Big Ten, and the program could easily fade back into obscurity in a conference that has more quality top to bottom.

That's just looking at it from a football fan's perspective, though. I'm sure the financial incentives would be impossible to turn down.

Another thing I've considered - going to the Big Ten would probably cut off some of Schiano's Florida recruiting, which has been a big part of getting them to where they are. (In the Big East, Rutgers can guarantee Florida kids a couple games back home in their career as they play USF every year. That actually makes a good argument for bringing UCF to the Big East so every team would have a game in Florida every year, but George O'Leary has publicly bashed the conference and broke a contract with WVU at the last minute that left us playing Eastern Washington last year.)

[Young Drachma]

What's O'Leary's beef with the Big East? Residual effects of Notre Dame being a member for everything but football?

And that's another consideration. Notre Dame is a Big East member for everything but football. I don't see them wanting to leave that conference given their other teams are middle of the road, for what promises to be a lesser payday than what they're doing on their own now.

[lcjjdnh]

There's no doubt in my mind that people in the Northeast are as sports mad as people anywhere. I just don't think they care about college football.


Although I don't think I'd go that far, one problem (in NJ at least) is that many high schools still play on Saturday. Not sure if this is true in other states in in Northeast.

[Logan]

That's what I was thinking. Rutgers is in great shape to become a perennial power in the Big East. Everything was up for grabs after the ACC raid, and WVU, Louisville and Rutgers have been the big winners. With the horribly timed coaching problems at Syracuse and, in my opinion, Pitt, the Scarlet Knights have moved right into the top 3 of BCS conference. That puts them a few crucial plays away from a BCS bid year in and year out just like last year. The Big East has fallen into place as a top heavy conference, and Rutgers is poised to rake in huge benefits as part of the top. Look at last year when 3 Big East teams were among the last handful or so of unbeatens in all of college football. I just think the odds for success are a lot lower in the Big Ten, and the program could easily fade back into obscurity in a conference that has more quality top to bottom.

That's just looking at it from a football fan's perspective, though. I'm sure the financial incentives would be impossible to turn down.

All things being equal financially, if the BE was a stable conference, I would want to stay. But the problem is, it's never going to be stable; it could be poached at any time, and it has a good chance of being done indirectly. If Rutgers is offered B10 and passes, and they want to go to Cuse, Pitt, UConn...each school would take it in a second. The conference is then left with an opening that will need to be filled by East Carolina, Central Florida, Florida Atlantic, Memphis, etc. Not good.

If the B10 looks to a Big XII or SEC school, both conferences would be on the next charter to Louisville or West Virginia to fill their spots. To lose one of those schools, and have it be filled by one of the schools listed above, would be an even bigger disaster.

Tranghese is a terrible commissioner who has no clue how to operate in big time college football. He does fine with basketball, but he's over his head in football. This conference should have been stabilized with other schools, and stiff penalties for leaving, once we pulled in Louisville, USF and Cincy.

Another thing I've considered - going to the Big Ten would probably cut off some of Schiano's Florida recruiting, which has been a big part of getting them to where they are. (In the Big East, Rutgers can guarantee Florida kids a couple games back home in their career as they play USF every year. That actually makes a good argument for bringing UCF to the Big East so every team would have a game in Florida every year, but George O'Leary has publicly bashed the conference and broke a contract with WVU at the last minute that left us playing Eastern Washington last year.)

Pulling in South Florida talent began a couple years before USF entered the league. Our Florida-based talent has increased in the past couple years, but it's nothing compared to the increase we've seen in Jersey kids. We used to be lucky to get 2 of the top 25, as ND, PSU, BC, etc took everyone. Last year, we got 7-10, depending on the list you look at, and PSU was shut out completely and BC didn't get anyone considered an impact player. Anyway, I'm not worried about that drying up, especially when it will be more than made up for when we don't have other schools negatively recruiting against us due to our shit bowl tie-ins in the BE and the overall lack of stability in the conference. Will Hill, a top 3 player in the country and many's #1, says he wants to go somewhere warm (a Florida verbal is assumed already) but despite that, he still listed schools like Michigan and PSU among his top 8. Admission into the Big 10 will keep us on the list of kids who are only interested in playing at the well-known premier schools.

[Buccaneer]

4. Syracuse - too small a market, not a strong natural rival.<!-- / message -->

Syracuse's natural rival (and biggest game) for decades (at least in the 60s and 70s) was Penn State.

[Young Drachma]

Long term, getting the Rutgers brand into the homes of midwestern families who grow up on Big Ten football would be a huge coup. When you consider that Rutgers women's basketball would enter that conference as a Tenneessee of sorts, that Vivan Stringer as connections in that region, that football is just on its way up..that move to the Big 10 would likely keep Greg Schiano from bolting to PSU once Joe Pa decides to retire...or if nothing else, would make the job a NYC-type cache job.

I don't think that things are heading downward, as much as they're on the upswing. I do think the move would benefit other programs at Rutgers like track and such alike, too.

Academically, it might be a bit weird to playing a bunch of midwestern schools. But if a bunch of New England schools can join the ACC and somehow make that work..Rutgers to the Big 10 to me would be worth it.

[Young Drachma]

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=529755

[timmynausea]

Pulling in South Florida talent began a couple years before USF entered the league.
Well, a couple years before USF joined the league we had Miami. I'm not saying a move to the Big Ten would completely stop Rutgers from recruiting Florida, I just think it'd hurt.
Will Hill, a top 3 player in the country and many's #1, says he wants to go somewhere warm (a Florida verbal is assumed already) but despite that, he still listed schools like Michigan and PSU among his top 8. Admission into the Big 10 will keep us on the list of kids who are only interested in playing at the well-known premier schools.

Of course Rutgers would recruit fine if they had a hugely successful national program, but let's not get ahead of ourselves and suggest that just joining the Big Ten would put them on equal footing with Penn State or Michigan. Those programs have been successful for 50-100 years.

In fact, it gets back to my original point - Success will be what keeps the top recruits headed to Piscataway, whether it's in the Big East or Big Ten. As I've said, I think the odds for success are significantly higher in the Big East.

[Young Drachma]

I think recruiting will hit a wall at some point if it seems likely that the Big East continues to be viewed on shaky ground by the naysayers and the public.

[WVUFAN]

If the B10 looks to a Big XII or SEC school, both conferences would be on the next charter to Louisville or West Virginia to fill their spots. To lose one of those schools, and have it be filled by one of the schools listed above, would be an even bigger disaster.

I agree with you about Louisville, but I don't think either the Bix XII or SEC would go after WVU. Too small a market. It's either the Big East or Independent status for them. I doubt any major conference would want them.

[SteelerFan448]

I think recruiting will hit a wall at some point if it seems likely that the Big East continues to be viewed on shaky ground by the naysayers and the public.

If/when teams leave, others will step up and take over. Look how Louisville and WVU shot up and Rutgers is showing potential. They'll still get the recruits. In fact, Pitt just got a verbal from a CB from Maryland who was getting recruited by some big programs.

[tarcone]

I have no confidence in the Big Ten leadership to make intelligent decisions. It's a decision that can't really be screwed up, unless they start a war with the Big 12 or compromise the academic reputation of the conference. But there are enough schools out there that fit the bill that I don't think they'd do it. Maybe they're holding out hope for Notre Dame.

Meanwhile, this Big Ten Network thing is a complete sham. It's not signed with any cable system around Ann Arbor, and Michigan's opener is scheduled on the network in just a month.

They're refusing placement on a sports tier, and we all know how well that went over for the NFL Network, which has ten times the cache. They've even got a web page up similar to the one the NFL Network ran, urging us to call the cable company. That's about as useful as a goal-line plunge on second-and-20.

Cable companies are the sham.
I have Directv. I live in the St Louis area. When the Big Ten network kicks off. I will be there.
The Big Ten network is not dumping their national TV contracts. They will keep their ESPN and other national contracts. The Big Ten network is an add-on that will allow me to catch Iowa play Northern Illinois. Or the Iowa baseball team play or the basketball team.

I cant wait for it.

[sterlingice]

Nah, the Big 12 pays pretty equally. Every bowl game is split 13 ways, with two equal shares to the participant in the game. This is for travel expenses...but Baylor still gets 1/13 of the BCS appearance.

The Big 10 may have a better TV deal, but the Big 12's has just gotten a lot better for basketball and they will have a good chance at getting on ESPN/ESPN2, while they will be stuck on the Big Ten Network in the Big Ten.

I don't know about that. A lot of the smaller schools have been making noise about the football tv contract, which is pretty unfair. It's based on number of appearances so OU, Texas, and Nebraska clean up while, well, the rest of the north is left looking for table scraps when every week, the Big XII office picks two of their games, grabbing UT/Baylor over something like a rivalry game in KU/MU.

SI

[Logan]

Of course Rutgers would recruit fine if they had a hugely successful national program, but let's not get ahead of ourselves and suggest that just joining the Big Ten would put them on equal footing with Penn State or Michigan. Those programs have been successful for 50-100 years.

We've already beat out PSU, Michigan, Ohio State, etc for recruits, so we don't need the long history to necessarily keep that up. But being on a more level playing field when it comes to TV exposure, high profile opponents, better bowl tie-ins, etc will help win a few more battles.

edit: Obviously the current situation didn't matter to 4 star OT Art Forst, who committed last night and turned down offers from Florida, Notre Dame, and BC among others :).

In fact, it gets back to my original point - Success will be what keeps the top recruits headed to Piscataway, whether it's in the Big East or Big Ten. As I've said, I think the odds for success are significantly higher in the Big East.

Absolutely true. But sadly, with the way things are set up now, an 8-4 record in the Big 10 will net you a New Year's Day, or at worst, a Dec. 29th bowl against a top 3 team from a BCS conference, while a 10-2 record in the BE could have you playing on Dec. 22nd or, god forbid, in Toronto on January 7th, against the 7th team from the B12.

I guess my main point with all this is that I really don't think staying in the BE is an option. The next school that leaves, whether it's Rutgers or UConn, is going to kill the conference. Bowl tie-in renegotiations don't take place until 2009, I believe...if it were to happen tomorrow it might be a different story.

[Swaggs]

I guess my main point with all this is that I really don't think staying in the BE is an option. The next school that leaves, whether it's Rutgers or UConn, is going to kill the conference. Bowl tie-in renegotiations don't take place until 2009, I believe...if it were to happen tomorrow it might be a different story.

I really like the Big East as it stands now and like having both Rutgers and UConn in it, but I really don't think the football side of the conference would take much of a hit if either of those schools left. In fact, if we had to lose one of the eight football schools, I'd probably rank Rutgers fifth or sixth in priority of the hit it would make on the conference (behind WVU, Louisville, Pitt, and Syracuse and about on par with USF) and it is a pretty slim margin between 1 and 7, honestly (with only Cincy clearly below the rest of the pack).

When we lost Miami, that was the huge blow that about killed the Big East. They were the true flagship of the Big East and the one "national" program in the conference. Right now, Rutgers, UConn, and USF have all the potential in the world and Rutgers and USF have a lot of momentum built up, but each of those programs have won one bowl game each in their entire history and (I would guess) spent a combined total of less than 25 total weeks ranked. If the Big East loses a Rutgers or Uconn and plugs in a Memphis or East Carolina, there is a little bit of a short term hit there (on the football side), but not the knock out punch of losing Miami.

My bigger concern would be if Missouri joins the B10 and then Arkansas joins the B12, then the SEC could come knocking on Louisville's door. Between Louisville's basketball program/history and their current football program, that would be the biggest hit that the conference currently faces.

Edited to add: My main point here is that there is not a real powerhouse/cornerstone in the football conference right now, so losing any one program doesn't scare me a whole lot anymore. There are a number of programs with fairly similar "prestige" right now, so I feel like if one of the teams leaves, another will step up and fill in reasonably well in the long term.

[panerd]

I don't know about that. A lot of the smaller schools have been making noise about the football tv contract, which is pretty unfair. It's based on number of appearances so OU, Texas, and Nebraska clean up while, well, the rest of the north is left looking for table scraps when every week, the Big XII office picks two of their games, grabbing UT/Baylor over something like a rivalry game in KU/MU.

SI

You beat me to it. The big 12 football TV contract (don't even get me started on the basketball one) almost always has most of the South teams playing while leaving out everyone from the North except Nebraska. There are two obvious reasons...

1. The cities in Texas are way larger television markets and fan bases than Columbia, Lawrence, Ames, Manhatten, and Boulder (or even St. Louis and Kansas City and Denver)

2. The quality of football is better in the South.

But still this would be a very strong reason for Mizzou to jump ship to a place where a lot more of all of the sports are going to be on TV for their fans and of course their bottom line... $$$

[timmynausea]

I'm still not sure why the Big East is so weak when it comes to these kinds of things. Is it just Tranghese?

Based on TV markets, the Big East should be the most powerful conference in college football. I saw these numbers on a WVU messageboard, so I can't say for sure how accurate they are, but the Northeast is so densely populated, I can't imagine it's far off.

TV HOUSEHOLDS PER BCS CONFERENCE:
1. NEW BIG EAST: 18.9 million (11 markets) (net -1.1m after ACC raid)
2. PAC 10: 11.9 million (7 markets)
3. BIG 10: 10.8 million (11 markets)
4. NEW ACC: 10.4 million (10 markets)(net +4.3m after Big East raid)
5. SEC: 6.6 million (11 markets)
6. BIG 12: 6.5 million (10 markets)

Why isn't the Big East more powerful?

[Swaggs]

What do the B12 folks think the conference would do if Mizzou jumped ship?

Would they offer Arkansas "back" and would Arkansas accept?

[KWhit]

The quality of football is better in the South.

QFT

[Swaggs]

I'm still not sure why the Big East is so weak when it comes to these kinds of things. Is it just Tranghese?

Based on TV markets, the Big East should be the most powerful conference in college football. I saw these numbers on a WVU messageboard, so I can't say for sure how accurate they are, but the Northeast is so densely populated, I can't imagine it's far off.

TV HOUSEHOLDS PER BCS CONFERENCE:
1. NEW BIG EAST: 18.9 million (11 markets) (net -1.1m after ACC raid)
2. PAC 10: 11.9 million (7 markets)
3. BIG 10: 10.8 million (11 markets)
4. NEW ACC: 10.4 million (10 markets)(net +4.3m after Big East raid)
5. SEC: 6.6 million (11 markets)
6. BIG 12: 6.5 million (10 markets)

Why isn't the Big East more powerful?

Couple of thoughts on this:

Realistically, even though the BE has a foot in markets like Chicago, New York, Milwaukee, D.C., etc., I wouldn't say that those are real captive audiences in those areas. I don't imagine DePaul or Marquette or Georgetown alums are real interested in watching Pitt-WVU or Louisville-Rutgers play football.

That said, I think it is a good thing, for the conference, that the Big East got into bed with ESPN on their last contract. Whether small or large, ESPN will have some impact in shaping the future of the conference. You might see a greater amount of Gameday hype for BE-televised games over B10 Network-televised B10 games.

[cartman]

I'm still not sure why the Big East is so weak when it comes to these kinds of things. Is it just Tranghese?

Based on TV markets, the Big East should be the most powerful conference in college football. I saw these numbers on a WVU messageboard, so I can't say for sure how accurate they are, but the Northeast is so densely populated, I can't imagine it's far off.

TV HOUSEHOLDS PER BCS CONFERENCE:
1. NEW BIG EAST: 18.9 million (11 markets) (net -1.1m after ACC raid)
2. PAC 10: 11.9 million (7 markets)
3. BIG 10: 10.8 million (11 markets)
4. NEW ACC: 10.4 million (10 markets)(net +4.3m after Big East raid)
5. SEC: 6.6 million (11 markets)
6. BIG 12: 6.5 million (10 markets)

Why isn't the Big East more powerful?

I think that is looking strictly at the TV markets of the cities where the schools are located. The Big 12 overall market is MUCH bigger than that. The number above is underreported, since there aren't any Big 12 schools in DFW or Houston, but I'd venture that the majority of people watching games there are primarily rooting for one of the Big 12 schools, not North Texas, TCU, SMU, Rice, or Houston.

[timmynausea]

I think that is looking strictly at the TV markets of the cities where the schools are located. The Big 12 overall market is MUCH bigger than that. The number above is underreported, since there aren't any Big 12 schools in DFW or Houston, but I'd venture that the majority of people watching games there are primarily rooting for one of the Big 12 schools, not North Texas, TCU, SMU, Rice, or Houston.

Yeah, the more I've been looking at that list, I was thinking it had to be pretty far off just on the Big 12 numbers. Texas alone is definitely a huge draw in Houston, Dallas and San Antonio, which account for 5.1 million TV households alone.

I was just looking over a list of the markets. It actually becomes pretty complicated to try to account for what TV markets to count for a conference.

Here's a link to the Nielsen breakdown of TV markets if anyone else is interested:
http://www.tvb.org/nav/build_frameset.asp?url=/rcentral/index.asp

[Young Drachma]

There are a heck of a lot more major league sports teams in the Big East than those other areas. So fans in those areas are pulled in a lot of different directions.

[dime]

Missouri has been pretty brazen about its interest in the big10 in recent years...enough so that some other schools (iowa state?) actually called them out about it.

[st.cronin]

Out of curiosity, is the Big East thinking of expanding?

[Swaggs]

Out of curiosity, is the Big East thinking of expanding?

Right now, I think the football schools would like to add another team to the conference because, as an 8-team football league, they have an unbalanced 3/4 schedule. And, in the years with only 3 home BE games, it is tough to get 3-4 solid home games.

Unfortunately, it takes a majority to expand and the 8 basketball schools don't want to expand. Interestingly, Notre Dame (who is obviously their top choice) sides with the basketball schools. There have been rumors that Memphis was offered a football-only invitation, but they declined. There was also, reportedly, a plan to invite Army and Navy to become partial football members, where they would each play 4 Big East teams per season (2 home/2 road) in an effort to balance the schedules as a combined "9th team" that would also share in some of the bowl opportunities.

I think the simple answer is that things will stay as they are now, with the 16-team mega conference, for the foreseeable future. The league would absolutely love to add Notre Dame, Penn State, or Maryland, but that isn't going to happen.

[Solecismic]

So, behind the scenes, someone turned the Big Ten down this week (just a guess, from the wording of a couple of Delany's quotes):

http://www.mlive.com/sports/annarbornews/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1185876611139630.xml&coll=2

[Passacaglia]

Good.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I think that is looking strictly at the TV markets of the cities where the schools are located. The Big 12 overall market is MUCH bigger than that. The number above is underreported, since there aren't any Big 12 schools in DFW or Houston, but I'd venture that the majority of people watching games there are primarily rooting for one of the Big 12 schools, not North Texas, TCU, SMU, Rice, or Houston.

The state of Missouri alone likely has 6.5 million (or more) Mizzou fans that attend or watch on TV most of the games in football and basketball. The eastern part of the U.S. has a lot of geographic areas that are split up by multiple schools, reducing the fan bases to parts of cities in some cases. The entire state of Missouri has one flagship university with a fan base extending around 150 miles in all directions. The markets aren't comparable.

Also, there are MU fans in 2 major markets (KC and STL) that the B10 would love to infiltrate.

[Swaggs]

So, behind the scenes, someone turned the Big Ten down this week (just a guess, from the wording of a couple of Delany's quotes):

http://www.mlive.com/sports/annarbornews/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1185876611139630.xml&coll=2

Care to expand?

I wouldn't doubt it (probably a stab at Notre Dame), but reading that article doesn't tell me much.

[Dr. Sak]

Delany is a douchebag...he is lucky he can put complete sentences together. Reading into his quotes is waste of time.

[st.cronin]

Right now, I think the football schools would like to add another team to the conference because, as an 8-team football league, they have an unbalanced 3/4 schedule. And, in the years with only 3 home BE games, it is tough to get 3-4 solid home games.

Unfortunately, it takes a majority to expand and the 8 basketball schools don't want to expand. Interestingly, Notre Dame (who is obviously their top choice) sides with the basketball schools. There have been rumors that Memphis was offered a football-only invitation, but they declined. There was also, reportedly, a plan to invite Army and Navy to become partial football members, where they would each play 4 Big East teams per season (2 home/2 road) in an effort to balance the schedules as a combined "9th team" that would also share in some of the bowl opportunities.

I think the simple answer is that things will stay as they are now, with the 16-team mega conference, for the foreseeable future. The league would absolutely love to add Notre Dame, Penn State, or Maryland, but that isn't going to happen.


I think Army and Navy would both make great additions. Are any of the "basketball" schools thinking about moving up to 1st division? I think Villanova has a pretty decent 1AA football team.

[Swaggs]

I think Army and Navy would both make great additions. Are any of the "basketball" schools thinking about moving up to 1st division? I think Villanova has a pretty decent 1AA football team.

Navy is probably the best choice for the conference, as the program has some history/prestige to it (something that literally half the Big East programs--Cincy, UConn, USF, and Rutgers--really don't, yet), it fits the geographical footprint, and it really won't hamper the recruiting in the area a lot (for instance, it won't really chip into Rutgers or WVU's pool of recruits) since the Academy is a national school. I think overtures have been, on the football side at least, and they have not shown a lot of interest, though.

Villanova and Georgetown were both offered the opportunity to move up back when UConn made the move, but both declined. I think Villanova seriously considered it, but decided that the finances weren't there.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Rutgers has plenty of history, considering they played in the first CFB game.