Roger Clemens: So this is what $28 million will buy

[gstelmack]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2958731

Seriously, as a sort-of Red Sox fan (sort-of in that I don't watch much baseball, but when I do I pull for the Sox), this just warms my heart.

[bbor]

And this is what 10 mil gets you

J Garland 1.1 9 8 8 0 1 4.60

[Jas_lov]

Oh god. He has one bad game after he's been doing pretty decent so far this year. Only 3 of those runs were earned.

[MikeVic]

I don't get it. Looking at the box score... The Yankees only had one error. And Clemens didn't walk anyone. How can only 3 out of 8 runs be earned then??

[Glengoyne]

I don't get it. Looking at the box score... The Yankees only had one error. And Clemens didn't walk anyone. How can only 3 out of 8 runs be earned then??

Out, error, out.. the rest of the runs are unearned

[Jas_lov]

I don't get it. Looking at the box score... The Yankees only had one error. And Clemens didn't walk anyone. How can only 3 out of 8 runs be earned then??

Cano booted a double play ball. Even though only 3 were earned Roger didn't look good today and left a lot of balls up and right down the middle. He's certainly not worth what they pay him like most of the Yankees roster, but he's been ok. Now Farnsworth is getting booed and deservedly so.

[MikeVic]

Out, error, out.. the rest of the runs are unearned

So runs scored on two outs aren't earned? I still don't follow.

[Eaglesfan27]

The error would have been an out and the 3rd out would have ended the inning. Since the error prevented the 2nd out and effectively kept the other team in the inning(by turning what would have been a 3rd out into only the 2nd out,) all future runs in that inning are unearned.

[MikeVic]

I don't think I ever realized that scenario before.

edit: Thanks for the explanation!

[cartman]

The error would have been an out and the 3rd out would have ended the inning. Since the error prevented the 2nd out and effectively kept the other team in the inning(by turning what would have been a 3rd out into only the 2nd out,) all future runs in that inning are unearned.

It was because of this that I had a stellar ERA in high school. In fact, I even threw a no-hitter once and lost 17-3. :)

[digamma]

28 million will buy lots of these too...

http://www.talktofrank.com/uploadedImages/Drugs/LARGE%20PHOTOS_steroids.jpg

[MikeVic]

28 million will buy lots of these too...

http://www.talktofrank.com/uploadedImages/Drugs/LARGE%20PHOTOS_steroids.jpg

Those look cool, what are they? Watermelon bubblegum?

[Karlifornia]

Those look cool, what are they? Watermelon bubblegum?

After dinner mints?

[Atocep]

Oh god. He has one bad game after he's been doing pretty decent so far this year. Only 3 of those runs were earned.

Regardless of whether the runs were earned or unearned, he was hit hard enough to give up the runs, even after the error. Unearned runs don't show up in a player's ERA (obviously), but it doesn't discount the fact that in a lot of cases the runs are still the pitcher's fault.

One bad game is a bit of an understatement. He's allowed more hits than innings pitched and his K rate since his first 3 games has been laughably bad (about 4.5 k/9). His ERA could easily be about half a run higher.

$28 million prorated gets you a pitcher thats league average and can't go more than 90 or so pitches in a start.

[Jas_lov]

Regardless of whether the runs were earned or unearned, he was hit hard enough to give up the runs, even after the error. Unearned runs don't show up in a player's ERA (obviously), but it doesn't discount the fact that in a lot of cases the runs are still the pitcher's fault.

One bad game is a bit of an understatement. He's allowed more hits than innings pitched and his K rate since his first 3 games has been laughably bad (about 4.5 k/9). His ERA could easily be about half a run higher.

$28 million prorated gets you a pitcher thats league average and can't go more than 90 or so pitches in a start.

I could have sworn I said most of this about today's game in my 2nd post in this thread. As far as the season goes it depends on what you expected him to do. If you expected him to have a 2.30 ERA in the AL East then you will be dissapointed. I thought he would have around a 4.00 ERA and he does. If you would have told me before he started the season that he would have gotten through 8 innings twice, 7 once, and into the 7th twice in his 11 starts I wouldn't have believed it since everyone said he was just a 5 inning pitcher. He was averaging 6.1 innings per start before today's game and unfortunately had only been gettin 1.7 runs per game of run support. His K rate is pathetic, but in 7 of 11 starts he has allowed 3 runs or less and with the Yankees offense that's usually good enough. Sure he's overpaid as I said, but he's doing a decent job which I also said. Compared to what else the Yankees ran out there early in the season he's obviously an improvement.

[Logan]

I think they need to figure out a way to account for unearned runs that are caused by the pitcher into ERA calculation. Oli Perez threw a ball away the other day, 2 runners scored, then a 2 run HR...no earned runs. There should be some sort of punishment.

[DeToxRox]

If a pitcher makes an error or wild pitch, the runs should stay earned.

[Atocep]

I think they need to figure out a way to account for unearned runs that are caused by the pitcher into ERA calculation. Oli Perez threw a ball away the other day, 2 runners scored, then a 2 run HR...no earned runs. There should be some sort of punishment.


Unearned runs are generally just a bad thing. Even if a there's an error by a position player on a play that would have been the 3rd out, if the pitcher gives up runs from there they should count against him.

[DaddyTorgo]

heard about the game today.

laughed myself half to death

[astrosfan64]

Roger is the most fake person on the planet. What a piece of crap. I hope he gets rocked the rest of the season.

[stevew]

Don't make me start the following threads:

Barry Zito: So this is what 127 million will buy, -or-
Jason Schmidt: So this is what 47 million will buy

[Neon_Chaos]

28 million will buy lots of these too...

http://www.talktofrank.com/uploadedImages/Drugs/LARGE%20PHOTOS_steroids.jpg

I love techno music.

[DaddyTorgo]

28 million will buy lots of these too...

http://www.talktofrank.com/uploadedImages/Drugs/LARGE%20PHOTOS_steroids.jpg

Special-K?

[sterlingice]

In KC, we're pretty happy about this $11M per year:

<table class="tablehead" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr class="colhead" align="right"><td align="left">SPLIT</td><td width="6%">G</td><td width="6%">IP</td><td width="6%">H</td><td width="6%">R</td><td width="6%">HR</td><td width="6%">BB</td><td width="6%">SO</td><td width="6%">W</td><td width="6%">L</td><td width="6%">Sv</td><td width="6%">P/GS</td><td width="6%">WHIP</td><td width="6%">BAA</td><td width="6%">ERA</td></tr><tr class="oddrow" align="right"><td align="left">Season</td><td>23</td><td>148.1</td><td>152</td><td>69</td><td>17</td><td>39</td><td>105</td><td>7</td><td>8</td><td>0</td><td>104.7</td><td>1.29</td><td>.267</td><td>3.70</td></tr></tbody></table>
SI

[Huckleberry]

My brother has both Clemens and Garland on one of his fantasy teams. And they count all runs allowed.

It was glorious.

[st.cronin]

The whole "earned run" concept is stupid. Its like saying that power play goals don't count against a goalie's gaa.

[gstelmack]

As far as the season goes it depends on what you expected him to do. If you expected him to have a 2.30 ERA in the AL East then you will be dissapointed. I thought he would have around a 4.00 ERA and he does.

But $28 million for a 4.00 ERA? That's what was laughable about the whole thing. Sure, he comes in for $8-$10 million, fine. But to get that joke salary for a partial season and put up games like this, well, I think I have the right to snicker.

I still remember the All-Star game after he came back from retirement to pitch for Houston and he got rocked for like 6 runs in that first inning. I snickered then, too.

[MikeVic]

The whole "earned run" concept is stupid. Its like saying that power play goals don't count against a goalie's gaa.

Yeah, now that I know more about what counts as an earned run, I find it stupid too.

[gstelmack]

Didn't OOTP 6 do a "real" calculation, where Roger would have had a much higher earned run count? They wouldn't count the run from the guy who got on base from the error, but all the other guys that scored after that still count because the pitcher should have been able to get the next batter out? Am I remembering correctly?

[Klinglerware]

The whole "earned run" concept is stupid. Its like saying that power play goals don't count against a goalie's gaa.

In the context of the times of when that statistic was devised, the concept does make sense. Remember, fielders used to use these things:

http://collect2sell.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/monday_2.jpg

They literally were "mitts". Hence, fielding errors were much more commonplace than they are now. So, it did make sense to try to somehow strip away the scored runs that were due to bad fielding. It was an early (albeit crude) attempt at isolating individual performance.

This concept is not so different from what sabermetric research attempts to do today. That individual statistical performance is influenced by factors outside of the individual's control, and that these factors can be statistically accounted for and adjusted, is fundamental to contemporary sabermetric evaluation of individual performance.

[stevew]

Didn't OOTP 6 do a "real" calculation, where Roger would have had a much higher earned run count? They wouldn't count the run from the guy who got on base from the error, but all the other guys that scored after that still count because the pitcher should have been able to get the next batter out? Am I remembering correctly?

Yeah, i think you're right. I honestly understand how it's scored as a bunch of unearned runs, but I still don't like the concept of how every last run in an inning is unearned after a certain point.

[tanglewood]

I'm not a huge baseball fan, but I've never really understood why ERA is the main stat used to evaluate pitchers (at least by the average fan). Surely WHIP is a much better indicator of performance?

[Synovia]

I could have sworn I said most of this about today's game in my 2nd post in this thread. As far as the season goes it depends on what you expected him to do. If you expected him to have a 2.30 ERA in the AL East then you will be dissapointed. I thought he would have around a 4.00 ERA and he does. If you would have told me before he started the season that he would have gotten through 8 innings twice, 7 once, and into the 7th twice in his 11 starts I wouldn't have believed it since everyone said he was just a 5 inning pitcher.

Pretty much what I expected. The last time he played in the AL, his ERA was just north of 4. I was expecting 4.3 range, with about 6 innings a game. IE, exactly what he was doing in 2003ish. And thats what hes doing.

[Oilers9911]

Roger is the most fake person on the planet. What a piece of crap. I hope he gets rocked the rest of the season.

Bet you were in love with him last season.

[Hammer755]

Didn't OOTP 6 do a "real" calculation, where Roger would have had a much higher earned run count? They wouldn't count the run from the guy who got on base from the error, but all the other guys that scored after that still count because the pitcher should have been able to get the next batter out? Am I remembering correctly?

You may be thinking of OOTP's CERA, which is component ERA. It is basically a calculation of a theoretical ERA using a pitcher's peripheral stats. It is similar to calculating a Pythag Record for a team's W/L record.

FWIW, Clemens' Component ERA (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=ERA&split=0&league=al&season=2007&seasonType=2&type=pitch5&ageMin=40&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=0&qual=false) (3.74) is better than his actual ERA (4.23) so far this year.

[Hammer755]

I'm not a huge baseball fan, but I've never really understood why ERA is the main stat used to evaluate pitchers (at least by the average fan). Surely WHIP is a much better indicator of performance?

Dola

WHIP is not a great indicator because it does not factor XBH into the equation, so a single allowed looks the same as a HR allowed in the calculation. A combination of ERA & WHIP is good for a quick glance, but to me the best places to look for true performance indicators are H/9, HR/9, & K/BB.

[st.cronin]

Bah, I just go by won-loss record.

[Glengoyne]

If a pitcher makes an error or wild pitch, the runs should stay earned.

I'm fairly certain that is the case.

[Shkspr]

Bah, I just go by won-loss record.

What the hell is Tim McCarver doing in Cochiti Lake?

[Logan]

But $28 million for a 4.00 ERA? That's what was laughable about the whole thing. Sure, he comes in for $8-$10 million, fine. But to get that joke salary for a partial season and put up games like this, well, I think I have the right to snicker.

I still remember the All-Star game after he came back from retirement to pitch for Houston and he got rocked for like 6 runs in that first inning. I snickered then, too.

And to be lauded as the "savior" when every non-moron out there knew he would put up those kinds of numbers.

[Logan]

I'm fairly certain that is the case.

No it's not, that was the whole point of this. As I said when I brought this up, Perez threw the ball away when going to 1st on what should have been an inning-ending groundout. Two runs scored on the play. Then he gave up a 2 run HR. All unearned.

[st.cronin]

wild pitches make runs earned, passed balls make runs unearned, errors by anybody make runs unearned

[MikeVic]

Does a balk count as a walk? And so it's unearned?

Why the hell are walks unearned anyway? The batter earned it by having a good eye, and the pitcher earned it to be against him by walking the guy... right??

[st.cronin]

No, walks and balks make runs earned. (I think.)

[larrymcg421]

ERA is meant to measure someone's pitching performance, not his pitching and fielding performance. This is why errors by the pitcher make the runs unearned.

[Logan]

ERA is meant to measure someone's pitching performance, not his pitching and fielding performance. This is why errors by the pitcher make the runs unearned.

Point being...an error that extends an inning to the point where it allows the pitcher to give up a HR to another batter (where it's his best efforts vs the batter's) isn't accurately measuring the pitcher's performance when it's all unearned.

Is a pitcher who, every two innings, finds himself in the unfortunate position to have his 3rd out reach base due to an error...and then gives up a 2 run bomb to the next batter every time, as good a performer as his ERA would indicate?

[Glengoyne]

wild pitches make runs earned, passed balls make runs unearned, errors by anybody make runs unearned

Yes this is it. I'm on board now.

[larrymcg421]

Point being...an error that extends an inning to the point where it allows the pitcher to give up a HR to another batter (where it's his best efforts vs the batter's) isn't accurately measuring the pitcher's performance when it's all unearned.

Is a pitcher who, every two innings, finds himself in the unfortunate position to have his 3rd out reach base due to an error...and then gives up a 2 run bomb to the next batter every time, as good a performer as his ERA would indicate?

I'm not arguing that the ERA is the most accurate statistical measure. Just saying that one thing it gets right is not counting Pitcher fielding errors differently than any other fielding error. I wouldn't really care if they did away with unearned runs altogether.

[saldana]

No, walks and balks make runs earned. (I think.)

yes they do.

[Brillig]

<TABLE width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=TSN2 align=middle width="12%">Season</TD><TD class=TSN2 align=middle width="5.17%">W</TD><TD class=TSN2 align=middle width="5.17%">L</TD><TD class=TSN2 align=middle width="5.17%">ERA</TD><TD class=TSN2 align=middle width="5.17%">G</TD><TD class=TSN2 align=middle width="5.17%">GS</TD><TD class=TSN2 align=middle width="5.17%">CG</TD><TD class=TSN2 align=middle width="5.17%">GF</TD><TD class=TSN2 align=middle width="5.17%">SH</TD><TD class=TSN2 align=middle width="5.17%">SV</TD><TD class=TSN2 align=middle width="5.17%">IP</TD><TD class=TSN2 align=middle width="5.17%">H</TD><TD class=TSN2 align=middle width="5.17%">R</TD><TD class=TSN2 align=middle width="5.17%">ER</TD><TD class=TSN2 align=middle width="5.17%">HR</TD><TD class=TSN2 align=middle width="5.17%">BB</TD><TD class=TSN2 align=middle width="5.17%">SO</TD><TD class=TSN2 align=middle width="5.17%">WP</TD></TR><TR><TD class=TSN1 width="12%">YTD</TD><TD class=TSN1 align=middle width="5.17%">8</TD><TD class=TSN1 align=middle width="5.17%">10</TD><TD class=TSN1 align=middle width="5.17%">5.12</TD><TD class=TSN1 align=middle width="5.17%">22</TD><TD class=TSN1 align=middle width="5.17%">22</TD><TD class=TSN1 align=middle width="5.17%">0</TD><TD class=TSN1 align=middle width="5.17%">0</TD><TD class=TSN1 align=middle width="5.17%">0</TD><TD class=TSN1 align=middle width="5.17%">0</TD><TD class=TSN1 align=middle width="5.17%">126.2</TD><TD class=TSN1 align=middle width="5.17%">128</TD><TD class=TSN1 align=middle width="5.17%">78</TD><TD class=TSN1 align=middle width="5.17%">72</TD><TD class=TSN1 align=middle width="5.17%">15</TD><TD class=TSN1 align=middle width="5.17%">60</TD><TD class=TSN1 align=middle width="5.17%">86</TD><TD class=TSN1 align=middle width="5.17%">2</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

All of you whiners shut up :D