756!!!

[kingfc22]

Bonds is now the all-time homerun king.

[kingfc22]

Hah, the guy who caught the ball is wearing a Jose Reyes jersey. WTF??

[Rizon]

WORST. THREAD. EVER.
(or will be)

[tucker rocky]

Amazing, 3 threads all waiting on the submit button, funny. :)

[ISiddiqui]

Wow... an Aaron congrats on the big screen. After all the talk about Aaron staying away, and a classy congrats.

Yay, Barry!!

[Crapshoot]

I could have gone to the game, but I had to (and still am) work. Fuck.

[clintl]

A very classy congrats from Aaron.

I've now seen on TV the all-time HR record broken twice (I was watching the game the night Aaron hit no. 715).

Congrats, Barry, it's been great time for us Giants fans!

[Bad-example]

It has been a tremendously entertaining ride. Congrats Barry!

[MrBug708]

COngrats to Bonds, too bad for the Giants it happened after the trade deadline

[EagleFan]

I step away from the TV for 5 freaking minutes...

Anyway, that person that got the ball... was that the dirtbag that went jumping on top of the pile? I hate it when jackasses like that end up coming out on top. It looked like someone had to have been hurt during that melee. That asshole jumped right on the back of some poor woman who looked like she was caught in a riptide.

[clintl]

1) I doubt that anyone wants to trade for Barry, given his contract.

2) The trade deadline is not going to be what stops a deal anyway; all it means is that Barry would have to clear waivers before the trade would go through, and nobody is going to claim Barry to stop the trade.

[FBPro]

Glad that's over, now back to reality.

[Young Drachma]

Woo. I really enjoyed seeing him during the year he was hitting the single-season record at old Busch and going deep.

[Young Drachma]

Wow, how cool is it that Aaron congratulated him. And I'm sure having Willie in his corner doesn't hurt, either.

At least it's one way of getting the Nats into the history books.

[Galaril]

Sorry to the Giants fans on this board but from a baseball traditionalist "fuck you Barry! Hope you choke on that HR ball." Poser.

[clintl]

At least it's one way of getting the Nats into the history books.

I thought it was very classy of Barry to thank the Nats for being understanding about the celebration.

[stevew]

Oh, yeah, and I hope you giants fans get a real lineup some day, it's been painful these past few weeks watching the mountain of shit they throw out there(other than bonds).

[clintl]

Oh, yeah, and I hope you giants fans get a real lineup some day, it's been painful these past few weeks watching the mountain of shit they throw out there(other than bonds).

Tell me about it. It doesn't help that they wasted $126 million on the piece of crap that Barry Zito has turned out to be, either. At least with Lowry, Cain, and Lincecum, they have the foundations of a solid young rotation.

This team bears a lot of similarities to the 1996 team, except Bonds isn't as good as he was then.

[Young Drachma]

I thought it was very classy of Barry to thank the Nats for being understanding about the celebration.

Agreed.

[MrBug708]

Can any record that's been broken seem to have so much apathy surrounding it as this one?

[Izulde]

I'm still not happy about this in the least and still regard Bonds as a cheater, but at least it appears he handled it with some grace... and my estimation of Hank Aaron has shot up considerably now.

[nilodor]

Wow... an Aaron congrats on the big screen. After all the talk about Aaron staying away, and a classy congrats.

Yay, Barry!!

Definatly big ups to Aaron. I thought that was fantastic and it gave me goose bumps.

[dawgfan]

Sorry to the Giants fans on this board but from a baseball traditionalist "fuck you Barry! Hope you choke on that HR ball." Poser.
So which baseball traditions are you most fond of - violently dirty play, racism, rampant amphetamine abuse...?

[gkb]

Meh.

[clintl]

Here's something pretty cool. Mike Bacsik's dad was also a major league pitcher, and faced Hank Aaron when Aaron had 755 HRs.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20170397/from/RS.2/

[Crapshoot]

Sorry to the Giants fans on this board but from a baseball traditionalist "fuck you Barry! Hope you choke on that HR ball." Poser.

From another baseball traditionalist - go fuck yourself and the horse you rod in on.

[Crapshoot]

Dola,
Seriously, I watched a press conference with an entertaining guy who treated the media with respect when they did the same - a guy who came across as intelligent, humble (didn't he thank everyone, including the nationals), and personable. I thoughts Bonds was evil?

[Karlifornia]

Thank you, Barry, for so many great moments.


My favorite Barry moment was a day game I decided to attend on a whim last year. The Giants were playing the Mets, and when I got the park, I saw Bonds wasn't in the lineup. Of course, I was a little dissapointed, but I was at a baseball game on a cloudless Tuesday (or was it Wednesday?) afternoon. I couldn't complain too much. The Giants went down 4-1, and Billy Wagner came in to close it for the Mets....and the Giants got a man on with two out, and BLB stepped out on deck. The crowd went apeshit, and we all wanted the the guy at the plate to get on 100000000x more than before. The guy got on base, and Bonds came up. He sent a Billy Wagner fastball out of the park to tie the game. The Giants lost in extra innings, but I still didn't believe what I had seen.

[Crapshoot]

Hey, is the sound not working on mlb.com for anyone else? I can watch videos, but I can't hear anything.

[B & B]

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/sp/tools/med/2007/07/ipt/1185581881.jpg

[Karlifornia]

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/sp/tools/med/2007/07/ipt/1185581881.jpg

Dude...they should put an asterisk next to the entire MLB logo.:)


EDIT: Whoops...assumed this was a B & B original...not what Yahoo! originally used.

[Karlifornia]

dola,

Bonds oldest daughter is pretty hot.

[Tigercat]

Didn't 61 have a *? Didn't so many like to hate Marris in that chase?

Yea, I thought so. Its amazing when people and the media don't realize they are on the unimaginative repetitive side of history.

I would love it if HBO would put 61* on every night for the next year until people get the message.

[Karlifornia]

Didn't 61 have a *? Didn't so many like to hate Marris in that chase?

Yea, I thought so. Its amazing when people and the media don't realize they are on the unimaginative repetitive side of history.

I would love it if HBO would put 61* on every night for the next year until people get the message.

It'll take at least a generation. People like to shit on things for no reason, but when people feel they actually have a reason to shit on something, it's usually something they take to the grave.

[dj_morton]

Its about time...this is all I've heard about the last 2-3 seasons

[Galaril]

From another baseball traditionalist - go fuck yourself and the horse you rod in on.

Whatever dude. :rolleyes:

[Pumpy Tudors]

Was Bonds thanking the Nationals for being understanding of the celebration? I thought he was thanking them for giving him 100 hittable pitches over the past two games. :)

From a comedy aspect, some friends and I noticed Willie Mays bringing out the microphone for the celebration. While Barry was speaking to the fans, Willie appeared to have this mean-ass look on his face like he wanted that mic. It looked like he was glaring at Barry and waiting for his chance to speak. As soon as Barry was done speaking, he handed the mic to Willie and bolted for the dugout. I thought Willie was going to explode because he came out there and didn't get to say a word. For all I know, Willie didn't care, or maybe he intended it to be that way. It just looked funny (in a "funny ha-ha" way).

Also, who was that PA announcer at the stadium? Was that Queen Latifah?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Dola

Also, for more comedy, I thought the Giants gave Barry Zito a pretty rude treatment in the inning after Bonds homered. I know Bochy wanted Bonds to take the field and get an ovation from the fans, and that's great. Zito had to go out and stand on the mound, though, knowing that he wasn't going to throw another pitch. So he trots out to the mound, waits three minutes, and then has to walk back to the dugout in shame.

Actually, I guess Barry Zito was giving the Giants a pretty rude treatment by allowing three home runs to the freakin' Nationals in five innings.

:)

[Dr. Sak]

Also, who was that PA announcer at the stadium? Was that Queen Latifah?

Wasn't that ESPN's Holly Rowe?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Wasn't that ESPN's Holly Rowe?
Could've been. When she announced Barry Bonds on his fifth-inning at-bat, she sounded like Queen Latifah.

Does Holly Rowe work for the Giants when she's not reporting for ESPN, or was this a special thing where the Giants let someone from ESPN do his announcement? I really hope it's the former, as the latter would be really tacky.

[Richard Weed]

Good for him. Now maybe we can concentrate on baseball.

[miami_fan]

my estimation of Hank Aaron has shot up considerably now.

OFT

Hank Aaron's class has been emphasized (over-emphasized?) a great deal over the last year or so. Last night was a perfect example of that class. I think Hank Aaron has handled this whole situation better than anyone associated with baseball. Better than Bonds, better than Selig, better than the media.

[Swaggs]

It'll take at least a generation. People like to shit on things for no reason, but when people feel they actually have a reason to shit on something, it's usually something they take to the grave.

Exactly.

People hate Bonds because he is/was so good at what he does, much like folks like to hate on Duke basketball, USC football, the Yankees, etc. Not that he doesn't get enough hate already, but I'm sure A-Rod will come under similar fire when he closes in on the record. It's tough to be the best.

The man has been under ridiculous scrutiny for about five years now and continues to be amazingly productive. I think he deserves some big props and I think they'll eventually come.

[KWhit]

I step away from the TV for 5 freaking minutes...

Anyway, that person that got the ball... was that the dirtbag that went jumping on top of the pile? I hate it when jackasses like that end up coming out on top. It looked like someone had to have been hurt during that melee. That asshole jumped right on the back of some poor woman who looked like she was caught in a riptide.

Exactly how I feel about Bonds.

[lighthousekeeper]

OFT

Hank Aaron's class has been emphasized (over-emphasized?) a great deal over the last year or so. Last night was a perfect example of that class. I think Hank Aaron has handled this whole situation better than anyone associated with baseball. Better than Bonds, better than Selig, better than the media.

even better than Karlifornia?!?

[st.cronin]

So, what does espn do now?

[clintl]

Wasn't that ESPN's Holly Rowe?

No, it was Renel Brooks-Moon, the Giants' regular PA announcer.

[Eaglesfan27]

Exactly how I feel about Bonds.

Me too, and I don't dislike him because he comes out on top. I dislike him because I believe he has cheated the game and because by most objective accounts he has been an ass to many people. Not just media, but fans, including little kids. There are too many accounts of him saying rude things to little kids, to not believe there is some fire with that smoke. Hank Aaron continues to show tremendous class and he is the true home run king in my mind.

[EagleFan]

Exactly.

People hate Bonds because he is/was so good at what he does, much like folks like to hate on Duke basketball, USC football, the Yankees, etc. Not that he doesn't get enough hate already, but I'm sure A-Rod will come under similar fire when he closes in on the record. It's tough to be the best.

The man has been under ridiculous scrutiny for about five years now and continues to be amazingly productive. I think he deserves some big props and I think they'll eventually come.

Yeah, you're right. That's why people hate what he did. It just can't be the whole steroids thing... :rolleyes:

[MizzouRah]

I loved how his kid wanted to hug him, but asshole Barry pointed to the sky.

*

[Young Drachma]

So which baseball traditions are you most fond of - violently dirty play, racism, rampant amphetamine abuse...?

+1

[clintl]

I loved how his kid wanted to hug him, but asshole Barry pointed to the sky.

*

He ALWAYS points to the sky after his HRs. Has for years - as long as I can remember.

[Carman Bulldog]

www.bugsandcranks.com


Asterisks Are For Morons And Bud Selig
Posted by David Chalk in The Clubhouse
August 7th, 2007

The more I think about, I just can’t understand why anyone would hold up an asterisk sign at a baseball game.

Unless they’re all just morons. Yup, that’s probably it.

Certainly, thanks to Commissioner Ford Frick the words “home run record” and “asterisk” are forever linked. But whether you agree that Frick made the right move by adding the asterisk to the number 61 in 1961, it makes absolutely no sense to use it in regards to Barry Bonds.

The reasoning behind the original asterisk made sense — it was simple math. More games pretty clearly gives you a better chance to hit more home runs. Babe Ruth hit 60 home runs during a 154-game season — at that rate he would have hit 63 had he played a 162-game season.

What possible justification could there be for asteriskizing Barry Bonds tremendous achievement?

Even if he did knowingly take steroids — which we don’t know — who cares?

Here’s what we do know:

1. There was no rule against steroid use.
2. Bonds has had to compete against pitchers who were definitely using steroids — even if you don’t believe Jon Lovitz’s 40% number, several pitchers have tested positive — unlike Bonds.

So why would we penalize Bonds for being able to excel without breaking any rules under the same conditions as every other player of his era?

And it still doesn’t make sense to me how Bonds could be so much better than everyone else if it’s just chemicals. I think Boston Red Sox great David Ortiz put it best:

“There are supposed to be guys using steroids in the game, and there’s nobody close to Barry Bonds. What’s that mean? He was using the best (expletive)? Know what I’m saying?”

People say inflated power numbers at an older age. How come so many other steroid players had only one fluke season? (Brady Anderson) Or they fell apart when they stopped using? (Jason Giambi) Why hasn’t anyone else come close to doing what Bonds has done for anywhere near as long or at as old an age as Bonds?

Steroids or not, couldn’t we just as easily say Ruth or Mantle would have hit a thousand home runs if they — I don’t know — exercised or something? lifted some weights? stayed in shape?

***

Perhaps the biggest moron of all is Commissioner* Bud Selig. How do you go to the games to see Bonds break the record, and then not clap? or smile? That was a disgrace.

***

More historical perspective:

In 1961, Roger Maris also had the further competitive advantage of playing against 2 new expansion teams — the new Washington Senators and the Los Angeles Angels (as they were then succinctly known) in a 10-team league instead of an 8-team league. And he had the luxury of playing in the American League, which had far fewer African-American and Latin players than the National League. (From 1950-1970 the NL was 15-5-1 in the All-Star Game.)

[stevew]

I wish Bobby Bonds would have survived a few more years so he could have been there.

[Crapshoot]

I loved how his kid wanted to hug him, but asshole Barry pointed to the sky.

*



Yeah, to his father - what an ass. Did you really not get that? :rolleyes:

[Young Drachma]

NY Times (http://select.nytimes.com/2007/08/08/sports/baseball/08vecsey.html?ref=sports)

August 8, 2007
Sports of The Times
Bonds Leaves Lasting Mark With No. 756
By GEORGE VECSEY
It’s his record. Barry Bonds earned it with 756 disciplined swings. Let’s give him a pass the way a thousand pitchers did. For one day, let’s call a truce, the way the generals did in ancient Greece when athletes were headed to Olympia.

Now he can celebrate the awesome feat of breaking Henry Aaron’s career record with his 756th home run, off Mike Bacsik of Washington last night, in front of his family and supportive fans, with a gracious taped congratulation from Aaron on the message board. It was his night.

Nobody — and certainly not some chemist in a white smock — swung the bat for Bonds against objects moving 80 or 90 or 100 miles an hour. He had to do that himself, with the superb reflexes he had as a cocky stripling, and the craft he acquired as a smug and enlarged elder.

No matter what anybody thinks about Bonds as a person, he walked out to home plate with a bat in his hand and some new-wave padding on his arms, and goodness knows what in his system, and he propelled baseballs into the briny deep.

It’s his record. What is baseball going to do, come up with some magic formula to pare down his home run totals? They are all his, every one of them. Victor Conte of notorious Balco didn’t hit them. Greg Anderson, the trainer guarding Bonds’s secrets in a California jail, didn’t hit them. The people who made money off Bonds and the union officials who blocked testing didn’t hit the home runs. Barry Bonds hit them, all 756 of them.

He did not do it with some wild Gorman Thomas-Rob Deer swing-from-your-butt, do-or-die lunge, but with the measured, disciplined stroke of a martial-arts master. He was self-contained. He knew what he was doing. He didn’t go out and get the ball with the jazz-improvisation genius of Yogi Berra (off his shoe tops) or Roberto Clemente (up around his eyebrows). He hypnotized the pitcher. He slowed down time.

Never mind the comparisons to Aaron or Babe Ruth. Bonds set this record with the latter-day arrogance and patience of Ted Williams: My pitches come to me. If you start giving the pitchers an eighth of an inch off the plate, those devious so-and-sos will start taking a quarter of an inch, and you can’t have that.

What a swing. I was reminded of his purposefulness in 2002, when Bonds played in his first World Series. Every time No. 25 came to the plate, like a lion tamer or a horse whisperer, he would concentrate on the essentials. No waving the bat over his head, no flexing, no strutting. Just a short stroke. Look into my eyes.

Seated in the far reaches of auxiliary press boxes, where they stick the likes of me in the postseason, I couldn’t take my eyes off that stroke. Even from deep right field or deep left field, he looked like a master carpenter hammering on expensive wood — thwack, thwack, thwack — no dents, no deviations.

Often the star of a World Series is a decent player who gets hot at the right time, but Bonds dominated that Series as few superstars ever have: seven games, 8 for 17, six runs batted in, three strikeouts and four home runs. He would have hit more, except that the Angels walked him 13 times, 7 of them intentionally.

Pitchers are still working around him, even though his body has thickened and stiffened at 43. He looks nothing like the smart-aleck kid, the son of Bobby Bonds, the godson of Willie Mays, indoctrinated early that the world was against him, carrying that chip of insolence into the Pittsburgh clubhouse, where he challenged Jim Leyland, one of the square shooters. Teammates would roll their eyes, but the kid could play. Then he moved on to his destiny in San Francisco.

The book “Game of Shadows,” by the San Francisco Chronicle reporters Lance Williams and Mark Fainaru-Wada, pretty much describes what a cold, manipulative person Bonds is. The book suggests he committed perjury to a grand jury and perhaps also failed to report cash income from collectible shows. It describes his relationship to Balco, before baseball and the union were finally shamed into accepting testing.

So far the tests have caught mostly fringe guys trying to earn that million-dollar season that will provide for their families. A lot of the positive tests were by pitchers trying to buy some muscle on their fastball. How many of the 756 home run pitchers were juiced? You think Barry Bonds was picking on innocents?

The Giants’ front office painted itself into a corner, using its stash to retain Bonds, and the old man has been laboring in recent weeks. He’s hardly the player who dominated nearly two decades, a first-ballot Hall of Fame no-brainer, no matter what he used.

He will never outdistance all the footnotes and asterisks and doubts and suspicions in our minds, but Barry Bonds hit those homers, all 756 of them. It’s his record.

E-mail: [email protected]

[Blade6119]

Exactly.

People hate Bonds because he is/was so good at what he does, much like folks like to hate on Duke basketball, USC football, the Yankees, etc. Not that he doesn't get enough hate already, but I'm sure A-Rod will come under similar fire when he closes in on the record. It's tough to be the best.

The man has been under ridiculous scrutiny for about five years now and continues to be amazingly productive. I think he deserves some big props and I think they'll eventually come.

Swaggs, your usually pretty level-headed but sweet lord you sound ignorant. People hate him for 2 reasons:

1.97% of the country(read:everyone outside of socal) thinks he cheated, and doesnt deserve a bit of this
2.Hes been a jackass for years, no matter how he has tried to help his image lately(which you can notice a change in).

Im sure the reason Mark Mcgwire isnt the in the hall of fame yet is because he was too good, right?

[vtbub]

Barry wasn't the only hitter who jucied, and I would bet HA's nuts that at one point in time, Barry faced a pitcher who juiced.

No question Barry is a Hall of Famer, and one of the Top 10 players to have ever played the game, but with matchbox ballparks and the crappy pitching that dominated the late 90's, the record itself is extremely watered down, no matter who broke it.

I don't like Bonds, but the record is his.

I was 2 when Aaron broke Ruth's record, and I remember it. I was asleep when the record fell. That about sums up how I feel about the record, let me know when he comes close to 3000 hits.

[Atocep]

www.bugsandcranks.com (http://www.bugsandcranks.com)

You claim to not be a bonds defender, but you post that article? No matter which side of the Bonds fence you're on, thats one of the worst articles on the subject I've read.

1. There was no rule against steroid use.

No, there are federal regulations....

2. Bonds has had to compete against pitchers who were definitely using steroids — even if you don’t believe Jon Lovitz’s 40% number, several pitchers have tested positive — unlike Bonds.

Because everyone uses the same amount of the same type of steroids, thus evening the playing field!

So why would we penalize Bonds for being able to excel without breaking any rules under the same conditions as every other player of his era?

Has anyone in baseball actually mentioned penalizing Bonds in any way?

People say inflated power numbers at an older age. How come so many other steroid players had only one fluke season? (Brady Anderson) Or they fell apart when they stopped using? (Jason Giambi) Why hasn’t anyone else come close to doing what Bonds has done for anywhere near as long or at as old an age as Bonds?


I don't even know where to begin here. As said above, people that use steroids use them differently. To compare alleged steroid users numbers and droppoffs makes zero sense.


Steroids or not, couldn’t we just as easily say Ruth or Mantle would have hit a thousand home runs if they — I don’t know — exercised or something? lifted some weights? stayed in shape?

Blame the dead guys for not exercising enough even though weightlifing and conditioning didn't really hit baseball until the late 60s.


Perhaps the biggest moron of all is Commissioner* Bud Selig. How do you go to the games to see Bonds break the record, and then not clap? or smile? That was a disgrace.

When all else fails, blame Selig.

[Crapshoot]

Swaggs, your usually pretty level-headed but sweet lord you sound ignorant. People hate him for 2 reasons:

1.97% of the country(read:everyone outside of socal) thinks he cheated, and doesnt deserve a bit of this
2.Hes been a jackass for years, no matter how he has tried to help his image lately(which you can notice a change in).

Im sure the reason Mark Mcgwire isnt the in the hall of fame yet is because he was too good, right?

Actually, you're the idiot here. Lets go through fact by fact.

(1) SoCal - This would be southern California. Basic geography teaches us that San Francisco is NoCal - not south. I doubt Dodger and Padre fans are Bonds' strongest supporters.

(2) 97% - is this a product of your fertile imagination, or what? He got cheered for in San Diego when he hit 755 - anyone who watched or who was there (from a multitude of anecdotal accounts) tells you that. Why is that?

(3) He's a jackass. Well gee, forgive me, but you have ever interacted with him? What would your reaction be to self-appointed moral arbitrers like the Jay Mariotti's and Skip Bayless' of the world consistently slandering you? Am I obligated to treat the media with more respect than they show to me? I've read just as many positive accounts from teammates (which strangely, never gets the press attention) - ie, most people don't know that the Jeff Kent fight was about him protecting a teammate who Kent was jawing at.

I don't Bonds is angelic, and they're many things I dislike about the guy. However, I don't believe he's the son of satan that the mediots and many fans label him as, based purely on 3rd hand conjecture ("my cousin's ex-wife's neighbors daughter said Bonds was mean to her!") or on a media that has been more interested in creating controversy as opposed to reporting.

[Huckleberry]

There was a rule against using steroids for pretty much Bonds' entire career. It was the rule that forbid the use of illegal drugs.

That argument is simply false.

[Atocep]

There was a rule against using steroids for pretty much Bonds' entire career. It was the rule that forbid the use of illegal drugs.

That argument is simply false.

Correct, Baseball banned controlled substances after the Pirates scandal (thats why Steve Howe was suspended 7 times).

The arguement is that "the clear" wasn't a controlled substance when Bonds was allegedly using it, which is true. However, it comes down to whether or not the fact that it was being secretly produced to keep it from being a controlled substance carries any weight.

[Dr. Sak]

I apologize if this was already posted but here is an article from someone who thinks Bonds' body armor assisted in his Home Run record, not by just protection. I found it pretty interesting.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003621797

[Carman Bulldog]

You claim to not be a bonds defender, but you post that article? No matter which side of the Bonds fence you're on, thats one of the worst articles on the subject I've read.



No, there are federal regulations....



Because everyone uses the same amount of the same type of steroids, thus evening the playing field!



Has anyone in baseball actually mentioned penalizing Bonds in any way?



I don't even know where to begin here. As said above, people that use steroids use them differently. To compare alleged steroid users numbers and droppoffs makes zero sense.




Blame the dead guys for not exercising enough even though weightlifing and conditioning didn't really hit baseball until the late 60s.




When all else fails, blame Selig.

Oh, as a whole the article is very poor. The point though is that the whole idea of an asterisk (whether for Bonds or Maris or any other athlete in any other sport) is stupid.

Should we put asterisk's beside Lance Armstrong's wins? Or should we strip him of his tour titles? What about Marion Jones and her five Olympic medals from Sydney?

Are we to believe that recovering cancer patient Armstrong was able to destroy the rest of the field on seven consecutive occasions remaining clean of drugs while the rest of the field was clearly heavily juicing?

The fact is that there is as much "evidence" against Armstrong as there is Bonds. The fact is also that neither has failed a drug test.

I am a fan of Armstrong's accomplishments and believe that he is a great inspiration for cancer patients.

I also believe that the evidence against him is equal to if not stronger than that against Bonds. Why does Armstrong get a virtual free pass from the American public and media while Bonds does not?

As for the federal regulations, I've said this a number of times, the steroid that Bonds has been accused of using in the BALCO scandal is THG. THG was not illegal until late 2003. So even if he used it everyday for a number of years, what he did was not illegal either by federal or MLB standards as long as he stopped using in late 2003. Show me any other concrete steroid allegations outside of the cream and the clear or allegations that say he has taken anything post 2003, outside of those where the party making allegations does not have a personal agenda. Just for the record Stanozolol (the other drug often commonly thrown around in Game of Shadows) is favoured by athletes because it does not include excess weight gain, which seems to go against everyone's theory of Barry's bulk increase.

I believe that Bonds used steroids and I believed that he stopped (he's not stupid). I also believe that when he did them there were no regulations (either federally or MLB) that said what he was doing was illegal.

If a player used THG today and ended up doing what Bonds did, then I would share the opinion of the general American public. Unfortunately, the evidence does not reflect this.

[Blade6119]

Actually, you're the idiot here. Lets go through fact by fact.

(1) SoCal - This would be southern California. Basic geography teaches us that San Francisco is NoCal - not south. I doubt Dodger and Padre fans are Bonds' strongest supporters.

(2) 97% - is this a product of your fertile imagination, or what? He got cheered for in San Diego when he hit 755 - anyone who watched or who was there (from a multitude of anecdotal accounts) tells you that. Why is that?

(3) He's a jackass. Well gee, forgive me, but you have ever interacted with him? What would your reaction be to self-appointed moral arbitrers like the Jay Mariotti's and Skip Bayless' of the world consistently slandering you? Am I obligated to treat the media with more respect than they show to me? I've read just as many positive accounts from teammates (which strangely, never gets the press attention) - ie, most people don't know that the Jeff Kent fight was about him protecting a teammate who Kent was jawing at.

I don't Bonds is angelic, and they're many things I dislike about the guy. However, I don't believe he's the son of satan that the mediots and many fans label him as, based purely on 3rd hand conjecture ("my cousin's ex-wife's neighbors daughter said Bonds was mean to her!") or on a media that has been more interested in creating controversy as opposed to reporting.
1/2.San Diego is socal, like my point i said(ill give you all of cal to modify, you were right there)

3.I have met him, he was a jackass to me....i live in scottsdale, he spends much of his time here. Ive actually interacted with him a few times now, all as a bank associate trying to help with his accounts. Some celebrities come in and are very nice. Albert Belle is a great guy, has a real passion for baseball. Barry Bonds was a dick.

[Chubby]

I can't wait for ARod to break Bonds' tainted record in 6 years.

[Irrelevant Dude]

He got cheered for in San Diego when he hit 755 - anyone who watched or who was there (from a multitude of anecdotal accounts) tells you that. Why is that?
I was disappointed by the San Diego fans. I was hoping for an overwhelmingly negative reaction, but in the end they were as blind as Giants fans in their support of a proven cheater.

[Young Drachma]

I'm not convinced A-Rod will break the record. It's just too much of a cinch that I think something will go wrong. Not like he'll get hurt. But that he'll stop being a power hitter or something.

That said, he does seem to want the record. And their personalities are similar. And A-Rod is the closest thing to a prodigy that we've seen in baseball in a long time.

6 years though? That'd be pretty astounding performance.

I hope he does it somewhere other than New York.

[Young Drachma]

I was disappointed by the San Diego fans. I was hoping for an overwhelmingly negative reaction, but in the end they were as blind as Giants fans in their support of a proven cheater.

Finally, the voice of reason has arrived.

[clintl]

with matchbox ballparks and the crappy pitching that dominated the late 90's, the record itself is extremely watered down, no matter who broke it.


The ballparks are smaller than they were in Aaron's day, but they are not smaller than they were in Ruth's day.

And even in his day, Aaron played in what was known as a hitter's park (so much so that Atlanta Fulton County Stadium's nickname was "The Launching Pad").

[miami_fan]

I can't wait for ARod to break Bonds' tainted record in 6 years.

Well according to the NY tabloids, A-Rod is a cheater too.


Oh you meant steroids didn't you.

[dawgfan]

I can't wait for ARod to break Bonds' tainted record in 6 years.
And you're certain A-Rod is totally clean? At this point, how can any athlete in good shape be assumed to be clean?

[cartman]

Sadarahu Oh just called. He said to let him know once someone passes 860 HRs. Then he'll start to take notice.

[Chubby]

And you're certain A-Rod is totally clean? At this point, how can any athlete in good shape be assumed to be clean?

That's the best the Barry defenders can do at this point?

"They're all dirty!"


ARod is a hell of a lot cleaner than Barry at this point.

[Carman Bulldog]

That's the best the Barry defenders can do at this point?

"They're all dirty!"


ARod is a hell of a lot cleaner than Barry at this point.

Actually, Jose Canseco recently hinted at A-Rod using performance enhancing substances. While admittedly Canseco may not be the most reliable source, he is at least as credible, if not moreso, than two biased reporters.

And I still haven't seen any Barry haters address the Lance Armstrong issue. What are your thoughts on him?

[Bad-example]

John Sickles' viewpoint... http://www.minorleagueball.com/

Cheating of various kinds has been going on in baseball since Day 1. There is no such thing as "pure" record. Should we throw out all the records before 1947 since the game wasn't integrated then and guys like Ruth and Gehrig did not play against black players? To me that is a bigger mark on the game than the use of steroids.

What about use of amphetimines? They are still used today when they shouldn't be, and they were VERY commonly used back in the 1950s and 1960s and 1970s. What about the no-hitter that Doc Ellis threw while tripping on LSD back in the 1970s? Should we throw that out of the books too?

Gaylord Perry and several other Hall of Fame pitchers cheated by scuffing the ball. Should they be kicked out? You think Whitey Ford didn't cheat?

A highly-placed major league baseball source told me a few years ago that by his estimate well more than half of the players in baseball, including more than half the pitchers, used steroids sometime in the 1990s and early 2000s before the crackdown.

I don't understand why everyone picks on Bonds. Did he use stuff he should not have used? Probably. So did the pitchers he was hitting against. It probably made him stronger, yes, but it did not improve his strike zone judgment, or his hand-eye coordination, and those were the things that have made him such an exceptional hitter. And it helped the guys he was hitting against just as much as it helped him. And he was hitting in San Francisco...you think that the steroids helped him more than the park hurt him the last few years?

This is really ridiculous I think. If Bonds were more personable, this wouldn't be a controversy. The press has hated Barry Bonds way before the steroid thing, just like they hated Ted Williams. Because he doesn't put up with their crap.

Is Barry Bonds a jerk? Sure. So are a lot of other baseball players...including some people that the press worships because they feed them good soundbites and pal around with them, but who then turn around and are jerky to fans and others. I have seen more than one "beloved" baseball figure treat fans poorly when the press wasn't watching. . .and sometimes even when they were, not that it gets into the press.

Bonds has a chip on his shoulder. But I know of people in baseball who do much MUCH worse things than he does, and who get a free pass from the press. It's all a bunch of crap.

I don't think I would like Barry Bonds as a person. And I wish the whole steroid thing had never happened. But I also wish that ballplayers didn't use speed, or scuff the ball, or cheat in other ways. I wish the game had been integrated from the beginning.

But wishing does not make it so.

Barry Bonds is the best baseball player I have ever seen. He is basically Ted Williams with more speed and a better glove. If he's not the best player in history, he's the second or third best. The fact that he's not a nice person does not change that.

[Irrelevant Dude]

John Sickles' viewpoint... http://www.minorleagueball.com/

It probably made him stronger, yes, but it did not improve his strike zone judgment, or his hand-eye coordination, and those were the things that have made him such an exceptional hitter.

The bolded text is debatable. There is evidence that certain types of steroids can improve vision, which in turn would improve hand-eye coordination.

[dawgfan]

That's the best the Barry defenders can do at this point?

"They're all dirty!"
The Sickels commentary quoted above in this thread does a pretty good job of summarizing my feelings on the steroid issue and Bonds in particular.

ARod is a hell of a lot cleaner than Barry at this point.
I ask again - how do you know this for sure? Did anyone have a clue Ryan Franklin juiced? Juan Rincon? Jason Grimsley? How can we be certain any athlete today isn't using a performance enhancer of some kind?

I'm not saying I think A-Rod has juiced, only that there have been enough other guys caught that don't fit the stereotype that I think it's naive to assume someone hasn't.

[Rizon]

WORST. THREAD. EVER.
(or will be)

QFT.

[MrBug708]

Actually, Jose Canseco recently hinted at A-Rod using performance enhancing substances. While admittedly Canseco may not be the most reliable source, he is at least as credible, if not moreso, than two biased reporters.


No, he said something along the lines of A-rod isn't as innocent as you think he is. But how would Jose know anything about A-Rod?

[Andiamo]

Say what you will about Bonds (and I'm not a big fan either) but I WAS THERE last night, and it was AMAZING!!!! They played the Phantom of the Opera music as he got up to bat, and people just got a funny feeling that this was it - the guy next to me "called it" as Bonds was walking up to the plate. So I feel pretty damn lucky to have been there.

I did think it was classy of Aaron to have a nice message for Bonds even if it was taped ahaead of time. They can't just ship him from city to city waiting on Bonds. It does make me a little sad that the guy who "caught" or faught his way to the ball was wearing a Mets jersey, but what can you do.

All in all, a PHENOMINAL NIGHT! :D

[Chief Rum]

A very classy congrats from Aaron.

I've now seen on TV the all-time HR record broken twice (I was watching the game the night Aaron hit no. 715).

Congrats, Barry, it's been great time for us Giants fans!

I think Bucc has seen the all-time HR record broken three times live!

[Crapshoot]

The Sickels commentary quoted above in this thread does a pretty good job of summarizing my feelings on the steroid issue and Bonds in particular.


I ask again - how do you know this for sure? Did anyone have a clue Ryan Franklin juiced? Juan Rincon? Jason Grimsley? How can we be certain any athlete today isn't using a performance enhancer of some kind?

I'm not saying I think A-Rod has juiced, only that there have been enough other guys caught that don't fit the stereotype that I think it's naive to assume someone hasn't.

Bingo - I'll echo Sickles, though I've heard enough good stories about Bonds (at an anecdotal level) to question the media's penchant for blatantly lying. It always amazes that me that none of the moral blowhards give two shits about the guys who have actually failed tests (which try as they might to ignore, Bonds never has)! Moreover, why the hell is the long history of amphetamines in baseball ignored? Fundementally, this vision of the evil Bonds competing against the innocence-ladled babes in the wood bit is a wonderful bit of fiction.

[Crapshoot]

I think Bucc has seen the all-time HR record broken three times live!

Okay, this made me LOL. :D

[Chief Rum]

1.97% of the country(read:everyone outside of socal) thinks he cheated, and doesnt deserve a bit of this.

Quick! Somebody get that kid a map of California, stat!

[Chief Rum]

Okay, this made me LOL. :D

If I make 100 jokes, eventually I get a base hit.

[Pumpy Tudors]

OK, seriously, who are these new guys coming to FOFC just to talk about Barry Bonds?

[Karlifornia]

OK, seriously, who are these new guys coming to FOFC just to talk about Barry Bonds?

I'm pretty sure one of them is Rick Reilly

[sabotai]

OK, seriously, who are these new guys coming to FOFC just to talk about Barry Bonds?

All of his illegitimate kids from the late 80s?

[Richard Weed]

OK, seriously, who are these new guys coming to FOFC just to talk about Barry Bonds?
It's not like you've been around since FOFC started. :D

[kingfc22]

Bonds just hit one into the cove. :D Must be the juice.

[Karlifornia]

Where's that 757 thread?

[Swaggs]

Swaggs, your usually pretty level-headed but sweet lord you sound ignorant. People hate him for 2 reasons:


Hmmmm...

[Swaggs]

Where's that 757 thread?

Don't you mean 757*? :)

[EagleFan]

And you're certain A-Rod is totally clean? At this point, how can any athlete in good shape be assumed to be clean?

His head has yet to grow several sizes in a year so there is no obvious sign yet. He also hasn't gone from a mid 30 a year homerun guy to a sudden homerun monster.

I guess it's easier to not look at the signs if you are a Bonds supporter, just bury that head in the ground...

[Karlifornia]

\Don't you mean 757*? :)

No. I most certainly do not mean 757* :o

[Tigercat]

His head has yet to grow several sizes in a year so there is no obvious sign yet. He also hasn't gone from a mid 30 a year homerun guy to a sudden homerun monster.

I guess it's easier to not look at the signs if you are a Bonds supporter, just bury that head in the ground...

And plenty of players have been caught with steroids who never showed these "tell-tale signs."

I think Bonds probably did steroids, but the Bond's head litmus test just makes the referencer sound ridiculous.

(Do some adult males not pay attention to other people? I know many people in my life who's hat sizes/heads grew in their adult years, myself included. As well as ones who's feet grew wider forcing them to get larger shoe sizes. Its like hearing from 911 conspiracy people saying that 911 is a conspiracy because it would have to be the first time fire melted steel.)

[ISiddiqui]

And, in addition, since when has Bonds been a "mid 30 a year homerun guy"? Sure he had years in where he hit HRs in the mid 30s, but he had more 40 HR years. And since his 73 HR year, he's just been hitting in the mid 40s. Perhaps SLG or HR/AB would have been a better comparison to make.

[sabotai]

\

No. I most certainly do not mean 757* :o

757†?

757‡?

[MizzouRah]

Yeah, to his father - what an ass. Did you really not get that? :rolleyes:

Even after he pointed to his "father" he should have hugged his kid. His kid looked a little awkward as Barry never embraced him after that. So :rolleyes: back at you. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Pumpy Tudors]

:) :cool: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :( :rolleyes: :o ;) :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p :rolleyes: :o :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :)

[Carman Bulldog]

Actually, Jose Canseco recently hinted at A-Rod using performance enhancing substances. While admittedly Canseco may not be the most reliable source, he is at least as credible, if not moreso, than two biased reporters.

No, he said something along the lines of A-rod isn't as innocent as you think he is. But how would Jose know anything about A-Rod?

How do you say "no" to my post? Did you even read it before jumping all over it? By your claims that Jose said "A-rod isn't as innocent as you think he is", what do you think he would be implying? I never said that Jose stated that A-Rod used steroids, just that he hintedat it.

Calling A-Rod a "hypocrite", claiming that he has "other stuff on Alex Rodriguez that will be coming out" and responding "wait and see" when asked if Rodriguez used steroids certainly seems to be hinting at something.

How would Jose know? How would the media or two San Fran reporters know anything about Bonds? How about Joe Fan and his knowledge of what Bonds took? Jose is much more of an inside source (despite being away from the game for a few years) than any others. That's not to say that he doesn't have his own agenda, but he is as reliable as any other "credible" sources out there that others claim to reference in regards to Bonds.

[Antmeister]

I think Bucc has seen the all-time HR record broken three times live!

ROFL! These Bucc jokes never get too old.

[Crapshoot]

Even after he pointed to his "father" he should have hugged his kid. His kid looked a little awkward as Barry never embraced him after that. So :rolleyes: back at you. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Todd, he embraced his son - go look at the video. Heck, even every press report notes it. I think you're just looking for a reason here.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Todd, he embraced his son - go look at the video. Heck, even every press report notes it. I think you're just looking for a reason here.
He did hug his son, but I know exactly what Todd's talking about. At least to me, there was an awkward moment as Nikolai looked like he wanted a hug and Barry left him hanging. Honestly, watching it live, I felt bad for the kid for a few seconds there.

[Swaggs]

I'm pretty sure I saw him kick a dog as he was rounding 2nd and, if you have it Tivoed and slo-mo it, he pushed over an old lady with a walker as he rounded third.

[Crapshoot]

He did hug his son, but I know exactly what Todd's talking about. At least to me, there was an awkward moment as Nikolai looked like he wanted a hug and Barry left him hanging. Honestly, watching it live, I felt bad for the kid for a few seconds there.

Seriously, isn't this looking for a reason? Todd dislikes Barry Bonds (which he has every right to), but he didn't hug his kid (which he did, after he pointed to his father!!) seems like a flimsy cover story. I'm with Swaggs here - people look for reasons to dislike Bonds.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Seriously, isn't this looking for a reason? Todd dislikes Barry Bonds (which he has every right to), but he didn't hug his kid (which he did, after he pointed to his father!!) seems like a flimsy cover story. I'm with Swaggs here - people look for reasons to dislike Bonds.
I can't speak for Todd, but I'm not looking for any reasons for anything. After pointing up to the sky, Barry Bonds left his kid hanging for a few seconds. I don't really care what Barry Bonds or his kids or anybody else do with their lives, but he did leave his kid hanging. If someone wants to use that as a reason to dislike him, at least it's something that actually happened and isn't just speculation (like the steroids).

[Antmeister]

I'm pretty sure I saw him kick a dog as he was rounding 2nd and, if you have it Tivoed and slo-mo it, he pushed over an old lady with a walker as he rounded third.

LOL!

[clintl]

After he hit 755, his son jumped into his arms, and he carried him halfway back to the dugout. What the hell do you people want - Bonds to do that every time? He hugged his son. He hugged his daughters. He hugged his mom. He hugged his wife.

[Young Drachma]

I saw the awkward moment too. But after seeing a few times, I thought..it's no different than when you're a kid, you want dad's attention RIGHT then and he says "in a minute son, I'm busy." Barry has a routine that he does every time and this might sound weird, but remember..dad is at work and he's got to give his teammates love and all of that. I'm sure Nikolai isn't exactly crying right now. He got to be on the field, in uniform for this special moment and I'm sure they talked about it.

But I do think this is just one more way of people looking at straws to draw over the fact that Barry is a jerk. He's a spoiled brat who grew up rich and with a silver spoon. Not the first person in our society who we see everyday on screen who is like that.

The whole on-field thing was a little weird. And I admit that he did seem -- just by the way he talks -- like he wasn't sure what to say..and that he was obviously emotional, but I can still see how folks can view him as self-serving and self-centered. But....at that level, in this era, that doesn't surprise me. His family seems to like him a lot...and that to me, says all I need to know. If they didn't, I'm sure there would be a reality series about it.

[dawgfan]

And plenty of players have been caught with steroids who never showed these "tell-tale signs."

I think Bonds probably did steroids, but the Bond's head litmus test just makes the referencer sound ridiculous.

(Do some adult males not pay attention to other people? I know many people in my life who's hat sizes/heads grew in their adult years, myself included. As well as ones who's feet grew wider forcing them to get larger shoe sizes. Its like hearing from 911 conspiracy people saying that 911 is a conspiracy because it would have to be the first time fire melted steel.)
+1

[Young Drachma]

And plenty of players have been caught with steroids who never showed these "tell-tale signs."

I think Bonds probably did steroids, but the Bond's head litmus test just makes the referencer sound ridiculous.

(Do some adult males not pay attention to other people? I know many people in my life who's hat sizes/heads grew in their adult years, myself included. As well as ones who's feet grew wider forcing them to get larger shoe sizes. Its like hearing from 911 conspiracy people saying that 911 is a conspiracy because it would have to be the first time fire melted steel.)

Glad someone else said it. I know one confirmed non-steroid user who gained significant muscle mass into his 30s and early 40s...and he wasn't nearly on the training regime that Barry is on and yet, he's in the best shape of his life. So I can't imagine what a multimillonaire would be able to do with access to most the best of everything.

But right, it has to be the juice. Well, let's spread that shit around and let everyone become 'super human'.

[MizzouRah]

I can't speak for Todd, but I'm not looking for any reasons for anything. After pointing up to the sky, Barry Bonds left his kid hanging for a few seconds. I don't really care what Barry Bonds or his kids or anybody else do with their lives, but he did leave his kid hanging. If someone wants to use that as a reason to dislike him, at least it's something that actually happened and isn't just speculation (like the steroids).

Exactly.... just seemed awkward to me. I know it sounds like nit-picking, it was just weird to me.

[MrBug708]

How do you say "no" to my post? Did you even read it before jumping all over it? By your claims that Jose said "A-rod isn't as innocent as you think he is", what do you think he would be implying? I never said that Jose stated that A-Rod used steroids, just that he hintedat it.

Calling A-Rod a "hypocrite", claiming that he has "other stuff on Alex Rodriguez that will be coming out" and responding "wait and see" when asked if Rodriguez used steroids certainly seems to be hinting at something.

How would Jose know? How would the media or two San Fran reporters know anything about Bonds? How about Joe Fan and his knowledge of what Bonds took? Jose is much more of an inside source (despite being away from the game for a few years) than any others. That's not to say that he doesn't have his own agenda, but he is as reliable as any other "credible" sources out there that others claim to reference in regards to Bonds.

This is the key word. Why wouldn't have Jose mentioned that in his first book if it was true? Him mentioning that in his first book would have been bigger then anything else he said in his first book.

It's not hard to deduct. he's probably going to say that A-rod was cheating on his wife or something like that.

[Atocep]

How would the media or two San Fran reporters know anything about Bonds?

Have you read Game of Shadows? Do you know who their source actually was?

If you're going to simply dismiss Game of Shadows as just some media bullshit, then I suggest you pick up the book and read it, then check their source.

[Chubby]

How do you say "no" to my post? Did you even read it before jumping all over it? By your claims that Jose said "A-rod isn't as innocent as you think he is", what do you think he would be implying? I never said that Jose stated that A-Rod used steroids, just that he hintedat it.

Calling A-Rod a "hypocrite", claiming that he has "other stuff on Alex Rodriguez that will be coming out" and responding "wait and see" when asked if Rodriguez used steroids certainly seems to be hinting at something.

How would Jose know? How would the media or two San Fran reporters know anything about Bonds? How about Joe Fan and his knowledge of what Bonds took? Jose is much more of an inside source (despite being away from the game for a few years) than any others. That's not to say that he doesn't have his own agenda, but he is as reliable as any other "credible" sources out there that others claim to reference in regards to Bonds.

Comparing two SF reporters finding something out about Bonds (who, gasp, plays in SF) to Canseco and ARod (who have never been around each other) is a little retarded until Canseco actually has something anywhere close to actual fact.

If they played on the same team than fine, I'd take his "hint" more seriously but at this point no.

[CU Tiger]

reportedly Canseco is going to print that A-rod is bisexual, or homosexual and his marriage is a sham.

Is anyone esle following the baseball story?
Supposedly dirt bag who caught it is going to be forced to pay
lottery" tax on itss estmiated value eveen if he chooses not to sell it.

[sterlingice]

ROFL! These Bucc jokes never get too old.

Agreed. And we just haven't had enough of them lately :D

SI

[sterlingice]

Sadarahu Oh just called. He said to let him know once someone passes 860 HRs. Then he'll start to take notice.

Was waiting for this post as someone was bound to make it. Still not sure how valid that claim is. Particularly since Japanese league baseball rates out to between AAA and MLB right now and that's after closing the gap significantly since he played. I wonder what the statistical equivalent MLB home run total for him would be.

Just saying "he has 860 professional home runs" doesn't mean a whole lot. I don't see anyone claiming Tuffy Rhodes is an equivalent power hitter to, say, Chipper Jones (376 career homers) because he has 360 homers in Japan and 13 here for a total of 373. Oh, but we forgot minor league home runs, of which he has 54. So does that equate to Carlos Delgado (424) and Mike Piazza (422)?

Or, wait, Hank Aaron has 31 minor league home runs to Barry's 20 so is he still ahead?

SI

[sterlingice]

I can't wait for ARod to break Bonds' tainted record in 6 years.

I'm not convinced A-Rod will break the record. It's just too much of a cinch that I think something will go wrong. Not like he'll get hurt. But that he'll stop being a power hitter or something.

That said, he does seem to want the record. And their personalities are similar. And A-Rod is the closest thing to a prodigy that we've seen in baseball in a long time.

6 years though? That'd be pretty astounding performance.

I hope he does it somewhere other than New York.


Way to go out on a limb there. I'm pretty sure if you're allowed to bet 260 home runs in 6 years or "the field" with the field being anything else from ARod not getting that many homers in that time to baseball dissolving because of silly financing to aliens destroying the planet, well, that's not so much of a risk ;)

Then again, I would like to see him do it and I'd love to see him do it away from New York. In fact, I'd love to see them not make the playoffs and then him leave the team and win a couple of championships elsewhere (like, say, KC ;) ok- not going to happen) just showing us again how egocentric New Yorkers can be that they booed and complained and villainized probably the best player ever because he wasn't one of their own.

SI

[sterlingice]

OFT

Hank Aaron's class has been emphasized (over-emphasized?) a great deal over the last year or so. Last night was a perfect example of that class. I think Hank Aaron has handled this whole situation better than anyone associated with baseball. Better than Bonds, better than Selig, better than the media.

Of the parties mentioned, being Hank Aaron is the easiest of all four, so let's not get too carried away. He has the easiest part to play of just being the gracious former champion. This is not to say he hasn't done so and he is a very classy individual and being a great ambassador for baseball in all this. But, again, he had the easiest role.

However, being the media is a no-win proposition, there is no perfect position to thread for them. Being Bud Selig is almost impossible in this circumstance- you are open to second guessing from both sides. And, I think this thread speaks for itself about Bonds.

SI

[sterlingice]

Me too, and I don't dislike him because he comes out on top. I dislike him because I believe he has cheated the game and because by most objective accounts he has been an ass to many people. Not just media, but fans, including little kids. There are too many accounts of him saying rude things to little kids, to not believe there is some fire with that smoke. Hank Aaron continues to show tremendous class and he is the true home run king in my mind.

""

SI

[sterlingice]

So which baseball traditions are you most fond of - violently dirty play, racism, rampant amphetamine abuse...?

Our choices are "love baseball, Barry Bonds, and everything flawed" or "hate it all" :rolleyes:

SI

[sterlingice]

reportedly Canseco is going to print that A-rod is bisexual, or homosexual and his marriage is a sham.

Is anyone esle following the baseball story?
Supposedly dirt bag who caught it is going to be forced to pay
lottery" tax on itss estmiated value eveen if he chooses not to sell it.

1) Because, of course, being bisexual or homosexual is on the same level as cheating in baseball *sigh*

2) Yeah, it's as if the guy is kindof damned if he does keep it since he'll have to pay about $200K in taxes on it. I saw on ebay's front page a couple of days ago a message to the guy who caught it, asking him to sell it on ebay.

SI

[sterlingice]

Dang, I bumped that for how many responses? 6? I need to stop going on vacation- too much to catch up with

SI

[dawgfan]

Our choices are "love baseball, Barry Bonds, and everything flawed" or "hate it all" :rolleyes:

SI
I suppose that's one way to interpret my response.

Another way to interpret is that there are a number of people out there that seem to be under the impression that baseball was clean and pure before the "steroid era" and Barry Bonds, and that Bonds holding the all-time homerun record is some great affront to baseball's history and traditions; where the reality is that baseball has never been clean and pure, and if the same level of attention were paid to these past imperfections (the violently dirty and cheating ways of players in up through the turn of the 20th century, the racism and exclusion of blacks and latinos up through the middle of the 20th century, the vast use of illegal and performance-enhancing amphetamines from the middle of the 20th century up through and including the present time) this present issue of steroids/etc. wouldn't be seen as quite such an 'affront' to baseball history.

I don't "hate" baseball because of these skeletons in its history, nor do I "hate" it now because of the rise of steroids/HGH/etc in the last decade plus. It is what it is - a game played by people, people that are, like most other slices of society, flawed. And the homerun record is what it is - a number, and a product of its era. Knowledgeable fans aren't going to forget Hank Aaron's 755 homers any more than they forgot Babe Ruth's 714, and each person will make their own judgments about how to compare those totals within the context of their times with Bonds' final number, whatever that ends up being.

I suppose I could be snarky and return your rolling eyes with interest, but I think you're smart enough and open-minded enough to read my point of view and at least respect where I'm coming from even if you don't necessarily agree with it, so the rolling eyes would undeserved. Too bad you didn't give me the same consideration.

[sterlingice]

I suppose I could be snarky and return your rolling eyes with interest, but I think you're smart enough and open-minded enough to read my point of view and at least respect where I'm coming from even if you don't necessarily agree with it, so the rolling eyes would undeserved. Too bad you didn't give me the same consideration.

C'mon, I think you know the initial post deserved it- it was a one liner with a simplistic message that you know better than and is beneath you as well. So, now onto the meat :)

Another way to interpret is that there are a number of people out there that seem to be under the impression that baseball was clean and pure before the "steroid era" and Barry Bonds, and that Bonds holding the all-time homerun record is some great affront to baseball's history and traditions; where the reality is that baseball has never been clean and pure, and if the same level of attention were paid to these past imperfections (the violently dirty and cheating ways of players in up through the turn of the 20th century, the racism and exclusion of blacks and latinos up through the middle of the 20th century, the vast use of illegal and performance-enhancing amphetamines from the middle of the 20th century up through and including the present time) this present issue of steroids/etc. wouldn't be seen as quite such an 'affront' to baseball history.

I don't "hate" baseball because of these skeletons in its history, nor do I "hate" it now because of the rise of steroids/HGH/etc in the last decade plus. It is what it is - a game played by people, people that are, like most other slices of society, flawed. And the homerun record is what it is - a number, and a product of its era. Knowledgeable fans aren't going to forget Hank Aaron's 755 homers any more than they forgot Babe Ruth's 714, and each person will make their own judgments about how to compare those totals within the context of their times with Bonds' final number, whatever that ends up being.

I think there have been a ton of stories, particularly over the past year or two, which have reminded people that it wasn't always rosey. Frankly, I didn't know there was rampant amphetamine (ab)use until the steroid stories started coming out. The racism of the game is well documented and has been known by many for quite some time. So, in short, yes, I think the general public knows about baseball's shortcoming, even more than any other sport.

However, I think there's a counterpoint to this. We can't take to task or hold a measure to those who came a long time before us. However, we can and should do it to those who do it today. As fans, we should strive for a better game and for better people regardless of what has gone on in the past. The argument should not be "let Barry get away with it because others were". It should be "let's get rid of all of these guys so we have a clean game".

SI

[Buccaneer]

As usual, I agree with SI and disagree with dawgfan.

If uppers and red juice were so widespread and prevelant, then their effect on performance should create a constant, albeit a little higher benchmark then what would otherwise have been. If it were only those hitters and pitchers that achieved record breaking performances through drinking and popping, then that would be an argument. I perceive that the effects of steroids/hgh applied to a smaller percentage and therefore, created more of an unbalance.

[dawgfan]

C'mon, I think you know the initial post deserved it- it was a one liner with a simplistic message that you know better than and is beneath you as well.
My response was a simplistic, exaggerated reply to a simplistic statement; to wit:

"Sorry to the Giants fans on this board but from a baseball traditionalist "fuck you Barry! Hope you choke on that HR ball." Poser."

I found the implications of this post so ridiculous as to warrant a pointed, simplistic response.

However, I think there's a counterpoint to this. We can't take to task or hold a measure to those who came a long time before us. However, we can and should do it to those who do it today. As fans, we should strive for a better game and for better people regardless of what has gone on in the past. The argument should not be "let Barry get away with it because others were". It should be "let's get rid of all of these guys so we have a clean game".

SI
I don't disagree with this view; I'm simply reacting to what seems to be a prevalent view among some fans that the game used to be much more pure and that Bonds embodies the downfall of the game and its "tradition". This simply isn't true IMO - the game has always been flawed in some form or fashion, and it's disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

I'm fully on board with testing for steroids (and ideally HGH as well) and I'm disgusted that the MLBPA treats this issue like any other negotiable bargaining chip (we'll submit to testing, but only if you give us a concession somewhere else). But I'm also a realist enough to know that cheaters will always be a step ahead of testing, and I've seen enough from scientific advances to believe that this is really just the tip of what is going to be an ever-growing iceberg of moral dilemmas over what constitutes "fair play" when it comes to medicine and sports. And so, given the history of the game and the likelihood of the dilemmas to come, I simply can't get overly worked up about the idea that steroids and Barry Bonds have irreparably tainted the game.

[sterlingice]

My response was a simplistic, exaggerated reply to a simplistic statement; to wit:

"Sorry to the Giants fans on this board but from a baseball traditionalist "fuck you Barry! Hope you choke on that HR ball." Poser."

I found the implications of this post so ridiculous as to warrant a pointed, simplistic response.

True, didn't think of the context

SI

[sterlingice]

As usual, I agree with SI and disagree with dawgfan.

Ok, then don't read up a couple of posts where I said we need more Bucc is old jokes :D

(And, we don't always agree, you cheap seats sitting Libertarian ;) )

SI

[dawgfan]

As usual, I agree with SI and disagree with dawgfan.

If uppers and red juice were so widespread and prevelant, then their effect on performance should create a constant, albeit a little higher benchmark then what would otherwise have been. If it were only those hitters and pitchers that achieved record breaking performances through drinking and popping, then that would be an argument. I perceive that the effects of steroids/hgh applied to a smaller percentage and therefore, created more of an unbalance.
Right - because those that have been caught using steroids have all been record-breaking performers, right Bucc? And no record-breaking performers from before the steroid era have been implicated as amphetamine users, right? *cough* Mickey Mantle, Pete Rose, Hank Aaron *cough*

We probably can't ever know how much steroids have changed the results on the field. What we do know is that the 'steroid era' coincides with many other trends that have boosted offensive output: smaller ballparks replacing bigger ones; a shrinking strike zone; the widespread acceptance of weight-training among ballplayers; and harder bats.

[sterlingice]

I'm fully on board with testing for steroids (and ideally HGH as well) and I'm disgusted that the MLBPA treats this issue like any other negotiable bargaining chip (we'll submit to testing, but only if you give us a concession somewhere else). But I'm also a realist enough to know that cheaters will always be a step ahead of testing, and I've seen enough from scientific advances to believe that this is really just the tip of what is going to be an ever-growing iceberg of moral dilemmas over what constitutes "fair play" when it comes to medicine and sports. And so, given the history of the game and the likelihood of the dilemmas to come, I simply can't get overly worked up about the idea that steroids and Barry Bonds have irreparably tainted the game.

Well, I'm 100% in agreement with you on the first statement. We should have strong testing as well as some other things that make sense from a MLBPA standpoint such as slotted draft picks (as the current system takes money out of the hands of players already in the union) but the owners botch every negotiation so badly it's almost criminal so the MLBPA lets them to get what they think are better long term concessions which really aren't.

Still, I have to at least try to get the "little things" right, one by one, before hoping they can get the big things right. Condemning steroids and all of the users is something that should be done without much nuance to the position.

SI

[Buccaneer]

Right - because those that have been caught using steroids have all been record-breaking performers, right Bucc? And no record-breaking performers from before the steroid era have been implicated as amphetamine users, right? *cough* Mickey Mantle, Pete Rose, Hank Aaron *cough*

We probably can't ever know how much steroids have changed the results on the field. What we do know is that the 'steroid era' coincides with many other trends that have boosted offensive output: smaller ballparks replacing bigger ones; a shrinking strike zone; the widespread acceptance of weight-training among ballplayers; and harder bats.

We were talking about one person (Bonds) in particular and by association, McGwire and Sosa, the other single-season dramatics. While I can agree that not all of the 20+ HRs per season can be attributed to one factor, they do become more suspicious than longetivity records that you cited.

[dawgfan]

We were talking about one person (Bonds) in particular and by association, McGwire and Sosa, the other single-season dramatics. While I can agree that not all of the 20+ HRs per season can be attributed to one factor, they do become more suspicious than longetivity records that you cited.
Well, for me that's the shame of the steroid era - we can't ever know how much of what McGwire, Sosa and Bonds did was due to juicing. Maybe it was 5 HR's a piece, maybe it was more like 25. We'll likely never know.

[Buccaneer]

Here's a simplistic chart I just made showing the top 100 single-season HR records, sorted by year.

http://home.comcast.net/~ouray2/images/hr.jpg

[sterlingice]

Isn't there some big graph making rule that's being broken here with the Y-axis?

(EDIT: Something about the first half unevenly spanning the first 100 years of baseball and the second half spanning the last 20?)

SI

[Buccaneer]

I think it would be the X-axis that would be questionable but I since I wanted to group the top 100 by years (regardless how they fall out), I'm not sure of any other way to do it without having to edit the raw data.

[Buccaneer]

I guess I could average it by year but would it show anything different? There is a cluster from 97-01 that stands out.

[sterlingice]

Whoops, yeah, X-axis. My bad.

I was thinking that your graph actually doesn't show your point at first glance. It looks like things are evenly distributed until you look more closely at the axis numbers. I'd have done bar graphs by 5 or 1 year periods or a scatter plot and you'd see the huge clusters in the last few years that throw everything off.

SI

[Buccaneer]

You're right. Let me do an XY plot instead.

[Buccaneer]

Here you go:

http://home.comcast.net/~ouray2/images/hr2.jpg

[sterlingice]

That shows it quite a bit better, tho it shows some ebb and flow throughout history. A little of that is misleading as Babe Ruth and Lou Gherig are a lot of those dots before 1940. But there in the 90s, it just explodes. Also, in the 80s and 90s there are some overlapping dots like Dawson and McGwire in 87 whereas there were very few before that.

SI

[molson]

That shows it quite a bit better, tho it shows some ebb and flow throughout history. A little of that is misleading as Babe Ruth and Lou Gherig are a lot of those dots before 1940. But there in the 90s, it just explodes. Also, in the 80s and 90s there are some overlapping dots like Dawson and McGwire in 87 whereas there were very few before that.

SI

Interesting chart, but I'd love to see one that started before 1920. The explosion of home runs from 1910-1920 was probably higher than what we saw in the steroid era.

Obviously, there was no "smoking gun" cause for the power increase early in the 20th century, but I wonder if it annoyed any of the baseball fans of the day. Because I get the sense that the anti-bonds and anti-steroid sentiment is fueled mostly by the havoc it all plays on the stats. But whether it's power, complete games, or stolen bases, the statistical identity of baseball has changed many times over the years.

[Karlifornia]

I just wanna say that sterlingice is probably one of my favorite posters on this board, and he came through with the most reasonable argument against my Bonds-loving ways. He mentioned how the argument of past transgressions against the sanctity of baseball should make us raise the benchmark when it comes to the actions of today's players. I think this is a decent point, and one of the few comments I've read during the whole Bonds saga that made even-handed sense to me.

The love affairs we have with morally questionable players of yesteryear is a time-honored tradition. When Ted Williams was taking his last ride around Fenway, I heard nothing negative besides the rare, fleeting, "that guy was a a supreme asshole". I think Bonds will be looked at in the same context someday, long after most of us posting here are dead.

My feeling remains that Bonds is the greatest student of the game any of us have ever seen. He spits at pitches that others helplessly flail at. He knows what pitches are coming at a rate unequaled by any other living player. Mark McGwire, even at his most andro-fueled, didn't command half the respect Bonds commands at the age of 43. And that comment goes for every other player that has been in the league during the time Bonds has. If you can't see that, then maybe you aren't as big a baseball fan as you think you are.

[Schmidty]

If you can't see that, then maybe you aren't as big a baseball fan as you think you are.

You had me until that pile of poo.

[Karlifornia]

You had me until that pile of poo.

yeah, I had a feeling that comment would ruin the prior argument I had made. I just can't help but making one ad hominem stab at anyone who disagrees with me. It's just the AMERICAN WAY!

[clintl]

There was a definitely a huge increase in HR's in the '90s, but in general, you have to be careful interpreting a graph like Bucc posted. Until 1960, there were only 16 major league teams. There are now 30. Statistically, we should expect almost twice as many players to hit 40+ HRs a year now compared to then.

Of course, what that graph shows is also something that we already knew - that the '70s and '80s were a period of unusually low HR numbers for the live ball era.

[Buccaneer]

Great idea


Buyer: Fate of Bonds' ball to be decided by Internet vote

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD width=10> </TD><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD noWrap>Sep. 17, 2007
CBSSports.com wire reports </TD><TD width=10> </TD><TD align=right><SCRIPT language=JavaScript><!--//var dclkFeaturesponsor='http://ad.doubleclick.net/adj/sponsorships.spln.com/fs/stories/'+vTag+';'+vTarget+';'+uID+';sz=234x42;tile=5;ord='+random+'?';if (switchDclk != 'off') { if (location.search.substring(1).indexOf('DCLK')>-1) document.write('<input type="text" value="'+dclkFeaturesponsor+'" style="width:">
'); document.write('<scr'+'ipt src="'+dclkFeaturesponsor+'"><\/script>'); }// --></SCRIPT><SCRIPT src="http://ad.doubleclick.net/adj/sponsorships.spln.com/fs/stories/mlb;arena=mlb;feat=stories;type=psa;user=Anonymous;seg=nonaol;ctype=lan;lang=en-us;lang=en-us;adv=b;cust=no;u=Rqy7jAq0HsYAAB04Yko;sz=234x42;tile=5;ord=581236271918036?"></SCRIPT><NOSCRIPT>[Munched] (http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/sponsorships.spln.com/fs/stories/mlb;arena=mlb;feat=stories;type=psa;user=Anonymous;cust=no;sz=234x42;tile=5;ord=215671190073803?)</NOSCRIPT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD width=10> </TD><TD>
<TABLE style="MARGIN: 5px 0px 5px 5px" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 align=right border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 8px; BORDER-LEFT: #cccccc 1px solid">http://images.commissioner.com/images/tools/alert_icon_over.gif (http://cbs.sportsline.com/customize/alerts/MLB) http://images.commissioner.com/images/tools/print-over.gif (http://cbs.sportsline.com/print/mlb/story/10357242) http://images.commissioner.com/images/tools/send-over.gif (http://cbs.sportsline.com/emailafriend/index?location=http://www.sportsline.com%2Fmlb%2Fstory%2F10357242&title=San%20Francisco%20Giants%2C%20Barry%20Bonds%2C%20Major%20League%20Baseball) http://images.commissioner.com/images/tools/xml-over.gif (http://cbs.sportsline.com/xml/rss)

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- T10357242 --><!-- Sesame Modified: 09/17/2007 18:16:45 --><!-- sversion: 3 $Updated: ssears$ -->SAN FRANCISCO -- The fate of Barry Bonds' (http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/players/playerpage/7447) record-breaking home run ball is now in the public's hands after its buyer announced Monday he was taking votes on whether to give the ball to the Hall of Fame, brand it with an asterisk or blast it into space.
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=320 align=left border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width=10 rowSpan=3> </TD><TD class=adlabel colSpan=3>Advertisement</TD><TD width=10 rowSpan=3> </TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle width=300 height=250><SCRIPT language=JavaScript><!--//var dclkImu='http://ad.doubleclick.net/adj/imus.spln.com/'+vTag+';'+vTarget+';'+uID+';sz=300x250;tile=7;ord='+random+'?';if (switchDclk != 'off') { if (location.search.substring(1).indexOf('DCLK')>-1) document.write('<input type="text" value="'+dclkImu+'" style="width:295px">
'); document.write('<script src="'+dclkImu+'"><\/script>'); }// --></SCRIPT><SCRIPT src="http://ad.doubleclick.net/adj/imus.spln.com/mlb;arena=mlb;feat=stories;type=psa;user=Anonymous;seg=nonaol;ctype=lan;lang=en-us;lang=en-us;adv=b;cust=no;u=Rqy7jAq0HsYAAB04Yko;sz=300x250;tile=7;ord=581236271918036?"></SCRIPT><NOSCRIPT>[Munched] (http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/imus.spln.com/mlb;arena=mlb;feat=stories;type=psa;user=Anonymous;cust=no;sz=300x250;tile=7;ord=215671190073803?)</NOSCRIPT></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3 height=10><SPACER type="block" width="1" height="10"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Fashion designer Marc Ecko revealed himself as Saturday's winning bidder in the online auction for the ball that Bonds hit last month to break Hank Aaron's record of 755 home runs. The final selling price for No. 756 was $752,467, well above most predictions.
Ecko had not even taken possession of the ball before setting up a website that lets visitors vote on which of the three outcomes they think the ball most deserves. He said he plans to announce the final tally after voting ends Sept. 25.
"I bought this baseball to democratize the debate over what to do with it," Ecko wrote on the website. "The idea that some of the best athletes in the country are forced to decide between being competitive and staying natural is troubling."
The 35-year-old Ecko is known for his pop culture pranks, including an infamous Internet video that showed him apparently infiltrating an airport tarmac and spray-painting graffiti on Air Force One. The incident turned out to be a hoax.
But the auction house that handled the sale confirmed that Ecko is indeed the ball's buyer.
"This transaction is happening and is going to be done by the end of the day," David Kohler, president of SCP Auctions, said Monday.
Kohler called Ecko's decision "brilliant" and said he had already visited the website and voted to send the ball to the National Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, N.Y.
Matt Murphy, a 21-year-old student and construction supervisor from New York, emerged from a scrum with the ball on Aug. 7. He decided to sell it, he said, because he couldn't afford the tax bill that would result from holding onto the ball.
"This either makes him a lunatic or a genius, one of those two," Murphy said when told of Ecko's stunt. "I'm leaning toward genius."
Murphy said he planned to vote to send the ball to Cooperstown.
Ecko himself said he voted to brand the ball with an asterisk, a reference to the belief of some Bonds detractors that the San Francisco Giants (http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/teams/page/SF) slugger's record is tainted by his alleged use of performance-enhancing substances. Bonds has denied knowingly using performance-enhancing drugs.
Ecko said what really interests him is seeing what happens when an American Idol approach comes together with a serious public debate over drugs in sports.
"My vote really doesn't matter," said Ecko, who identifies himself as a New York Yankees fan. "The American public will tell us what to do with it."
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Go here to vote

http://www.vote756.com/marcecko/

I would make a special trip to Cooperstown just to see that ball with an asterisk on it. I really, really hope that ends up being the results.

[Karlifornia]

Great idea



Go here to vote

http://www.vote756.com/marcecko/

I would make a special trip to Cooperstown just to see that ball with an asterisk on it. I really, really hope that ends up being the results.

The defendant: Buccaneer

The charges: One count of attempted thunder-theft

[EagleFan]

Great idea



Go here to vote

http://www.vote756.com/marcecko/

I would make a special trip to Cooperstown just to see that ball with an asterisk on it. I really, really hope that ends up being the results.

Or you could go here:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=60982

[Buccaneer]

Well shit. Your thread did not have 756* in the title, so there. But neither does this one and the only way to get the Bonds lapdogs to change is to go right at them. :)

[Karlifornia]

Well shit. Your thread did not have 756* in the title, so there. But neither does this one and the only way to get the Bonds lapdogs to change is to go right at them. :)

Say hello to Ken Caminiti for me ;)

[Crapshoot]

Well shit. Your thread did not have 756* in the title, so there. But neither does this one and the only way to get the Bonds lapdogs to change is to go right at them. :)

Brilliant analysis as always Bucc. :rolleyes: The man hit 760+ HR's - get over it. He's probably the greatest baseball player we will see in our lifetimes (even yours!) - and all the whining in the world isn't going to change that.

[MrBug708]

I dunno, A-Rod is pretty amazing...

[Karlifornia]

I dunno, A-Rod is pretty amazing...

Great player, but not on Bonds' level. If you want to present something to make me think otherwise, I'll be more than happy to look it over.

[dawgfan]

Great player, but not on Bonds' level. If you want to present something to make me think otherwise, I'll be more than happy to look it over.
Depends on a number of factors:

1. Has A-Rod juiced?
2. How much has juicing helped batters (in comparison to all the other factors that have affected hitting in the last 15 years, and against pitchers that have also been juicing)?

Setting the juicing part of the equation aside, the big difference is obviously the strike zone judgment. A-Rod's is very good, but Bonds' has been shatter previous records good. Now, you could argue that part of Bonds' ridiculous walk totals can be attributed to his big jump in power, resulting in pitchers refusing to pitch to him, but credit Bonds' eye and discipline for not giving in a chasing bad pitches. Big advantage Bonds.

The other, lesser difference is that A-Rod has been hitting for power virtually his entire career; Bonds has always been a pretty good power hitter, but he didn't become the HR monster until after he moved to S.F. - advantage A-Rod.

Pujols also belongs in the discussion as a hitter, but Bonds and A-Rod both have a decided edge in defensive value over their careers.

[Karlifornia]

Depends on a number of factors:

1. Has A-Rod juiced?
2. How much has juicing helped batters (in comparison to all the other factors that have affected hitting in the last 15 years, and against pitchers that have also been juicing)?

Setting the juicing part of the equation aside, the big difference is obviously the strike zone judgment. A-Rod's is very good, but Bonds' has been shatter previous records good. Now, you could argue that part of Bonds' ridiculous walk totals can be attributed to his big jump in power, resulting in pitchers refusing to pitch to him, but credit Bonds' eye and discipline for not giving in a chasing bad pitches. Big advantage Bonds.

The other, lesser difference is that A-Rod has been hitting for power virtually his entire career; Bonds has always been a pretty good power hitter, but he didn't become the HR monster until after he moved to S.F. - advantage A-Rod.

Pujols also belongs in the discussion as a hitter, but Bonds and A-Rod both have a decided edge in defensive value over their careers.

While Bonds' walk numbers jumped to cartoonish levels late in his career, they were still massive before that.

A-Rod has walked 100 times exactly once in his career. It was in 2000, when he walked exactly 100 times with the Mariners. That was his fifth full season in the ML.

Bonds didn't hit the triple digits in walks until his 6th season, when he walked 114 times in 1990 with the Pirates. Following that, Bonds walked at least 100 times in 10 of his next 12 seasons. In 8 of those seasons, he walked at least 120 times. In 2001, when Bonds hit 73 he walked 177 times, but in 1996, when hit 42 HR's, he walked 151 times.

So, Bonds power surge only piled more ridiculousness on top of an already established ridiculousness.

Now, in terms of the advantages in fielding, A-Rod has won two gold gloves, both when he was playing for the Texas Rangers. The caveat is obviously the position switch. If he had stayed at short during his time with the Yankees, he may have won more gold gloves. He may not have, we'll never know.

Bonds has won 9 gold gloves, from the 1990 season through the 1998 season, excluding 1995. He has notched double-digits in assists 9 times.

I could go on to base-stealing, but I want to eat dinner.

[Buccaneer]

In my lifetime? Willie Mays.

[ISiddiqui]

Bonds vs. Mays is a tossup for me.

[MrBug708]

Great player, but not on Bonds' level. If you want to present something to make me think otherwise, I'll be more than happy to look it over.

Maybe at this point, but in 10 years (which I'm planning on it being my lifetime) it could be another story

[Bubba Wheels]

Yawn...and in other news...

[dawgfan]

While Bonds' walk numbers jumped to cartoonish levels late in his career, they were still massive before that.

A-Rod has walked 100 times exactly once in his career. It was in 2000, when he walked exactly 100 times with the Mariners. That was his fifth full season in the ML.

Bonds didn't hit the triple digits in walks until his 6th season, when he walked 114 times in 1990 with the Pirates. Following that, Bonds walked at least 100 times in 10 of his next 12 seasons. In 8 of those seasons, he walked at least 120 times. In 2001, when Bonds hit 73 he walked 177 times, but in 1996, when hit 42 HR's, he walked 151 times.

So, Bonds power surge only piled more ridiculousness on top of an already established ridiculousness.
No argument there - I thought I was making it clear that Bonds' had a big edge in this category.

Now, in terms of the advantages in fielding, A-Rod has won two gold gloves, both when he was playing for the Texas Rangers. The caveat is obviously the position switch. If he had stayed at short during his time with the Yankees, he may have won more gold gloves. He may not have, we'll never know.

Bonds has won 9 gold gloves, from the 1990 season through the 1998 season, excluding 1995. He has notched double-digits in assists 9 times.

I could go on to base-stealing, but I want to eat dinner.
I wasn't really trying to compare Bonds and A-Rod defensively, only pointing out that collectively, they had big advantages over Pujols. I do think that A-Rod has a slight advantage over Bonds in that SS and 3B are more critical defensive positions than LF. Bonds was probably a better LF over his career than A-Rod has been a SS and 3B, but the greater importance of SS and 3B I think tips scales slightly in A-Rod's favor.

Base-stealing, yeah - Bonds has a big edge. But he did have a number of seasons where, despite big base stealing numbers, he really wasn't helping his team win with them because he was getting caught too much (i.e. below 70% success rate). A-Rod stopped stealing big numbers after his 40/40 year in '98, but it's interesting to note that his career success rate is better than Bonds.

And I'll reiterate that a good argument can be made for A-Rod having superior power when comparing age to age and assuming Bonds had chemical assistance while A-Rod hasn't.

All that said, I'd still say Bonds is superior, but it's not unreasonable to argue in favor of A-Rod.

[SunDevil]

To the moon!!!!

[Crapshoot]

I dunno, A-Rod is pretty amazing...

Fair point, but I think his move to 3b hurt him - if he had stayed at SS for his career, he may well have been top 5 all time. That being said, he's clearly on pace to be a top 20 all time player, if not better.