Rick Ankiel

[clintl]

I just read over on ESPN that he's back in the majors, as an outfielder this time, and homered in his first game after being called up.

[Lathum]

good for him.

with the cards?

[tarcone]

Yeah. He is the next centerfielder. He was tearing up AAA. Glad to see the Cardinals shaking it up a alittle.

[lighthousekeeper]

great story - guy must be a good athlete

[stevew]

I can't believe he's only 28

[jbergey22]

Yup great athlete. Great power will struggle to make contact, I wish the best for him but I cant see him adjusting to major league pitching as fast as he has.

[ISiddiqui]

Wow, that's incredible!

I wish him all the best. He seemed like a nice guy back when he was a pitcher.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

How many HR's is he in back of the Hulk?

[st.cronin]

He always had very cool socks.

[Crapshoot]

Nicely done. It still saddens me to see him not make it as a pitcher - what he was doing in the big leagues at 21 is unreal. I hope someday he considers giving pitching another shot.

[primelord]

Yeah. He is the next centerfielder. He was tearing up AAA. Glad to see the Cardinals shaking it up a alittle.

This is a bit over optimistic. He isn't the next CF. Colby Rasmus is who the Cardinals have in mind as the CF of the future.

It's also a very big stretch to say Ankiel was tearing up AAA. He hit a lot of home runs in AAA (31 in only 381 at bats), but he has some issues. He was only htting .270, strikes out way too much and does not walk anywhere near enough. The reports are also that he feasts on the poor pitchers in AAA and greatly struggles against any legitimate prospects at that level.

I had softball games tonight so I only got to see the highlights of his at bats, but he looked over matched in his first 3 at bats. I am happy he hit a home run and I hope he continues to do well, but he has a very long way to go still to prove he is going to be able to help this team.

[Radii]

yup, 3 run HR, I'm rooting for him big time.

[cartman]

Nicely done. It still saddens me to see him not make it as a pitcher - what he was doing in the big leagues at 21 is unreal. I hope someday he considers giving pitching another shot.

Jose Canseco does not recommend moving from the outfield to the mound.

[primelord]

The timing for bringing him up is odd too. I know the Cardinals have struggled, but they are only 5.5 games out of first place right now. Ankiel doesn't have any more options left so they can't send him back down without clearing waivers. There is no way he will clear waivers.

Now if they think they are still in the race then I think you pretty obviously have to play Juan E. I am certainly not a huge Encarnacion fan, but he is solid and he is doing what he does. I can't see how it helps Ankiel to be sitting on the bench, when he could be getting 4 at bats a night in AAA. Why not wait 3 weeks and call him up in September?

At this point they are either going to be wasting development time for him or they are going to be playing a potentially less ideal option in RF as they make their last ditch run at catching Milwaukee and Chicago.Just seems odd. Especially when Skip Schumaker is hitting over .300 at the major league level and has options still if they want to send him back down.

[Karlifornia]

Pretty cool story...definitely pulling for him.

[korme]

The timing for bringing him up is odd too. I know the Cardinals have struggled, but they are only 5.5 games out of first place right now. Ankiel doesn't have any more options left so they can't send him back down without clearing waivers. There is no way he will clear waivers.

Now if they think they are still in the race then I think you pretty obviously have to play Juan E. I am certainly not a huge Encarnacion fan, but he is solid and he is doing what he does. I can't see how it helps Ankiel to be sitting on the bench, when he could be getting 4 at bats a night in AAA. Why not wait 3 weeks and call him up in September?

At this point they are either going to be wasting development time for him or they are going to be playing a potentially less ideal option in RF as they make their last ditch run at catching Milwaukee and Chicago.Just seems odd. Especially when Skip Schumaker is hitting over .300 at the major league level and has options still if they want to send him back down.

I like it!!! Jocketty to the Reds in '08!!!

[Poli]

Yeah. He is the next centerfielder. He was tearing up AAA. Glad to see the Cardinals shaking it up a alittle.

Colby Rasmus just called. He's laughing at you. ;)

[Mustang]

The timing for bringing him up is odd too. I know the Cardinals have struggled, but they are only 5.5 games out of first place right now. Ankiel doesn't have any more options left so they can't send him back down without clearing waivers. There is no way he will clear waivers.


Well, you might as well bring him up and see what you got for now and the future. Maybe I'm crazy here but, best case, he comes up and hits good and sparks the entire team which is something that I don't think Schumaker or Encarnacion could do.

Could it happen? Doubtful but, would sure make one hell of a story IMO.

[MizzouRah]

Great story indeed. The crowd gave him a standing "O" and it was great to see LaRussa's reaction to the HR which put the game out of reach for the Pads.

I like the Duncan/Edmonds/Ankiel lefty outfield lineup.

[Poli]

I'll echo primelord's position...this isn't exactly the time to bring up the prospects and see what you have...especially one that can't be sent down again.

If they were 10 games out or it was the end of August, I'd be fine with it.

[DanGarion]

Sweet, very good to hear he's back in the bigs. So is he still wearing the socks?

[MizzouRah]

I'll echo primelord's position...this isn't exactly the time to bring up the prospects and see what you have...especially one that can't be sent down again.

If they were 10 games out or it was the end of August, I'd be fine with it.

Sure it is. Ankiel is not REALLY a prospect and we need hitting something fierce. It's time to see what we have before next season.

[MikeVic]

Sure it is. Ankiel is not REALLY a prospect and we need hitting something fierce. It's time to see what we have before next season.

Gorram Ankiel!

[Poli]

Sure it is. Ankiel is not REALLY a prospect
Peter Gammons would disagree.

[primelord]

Sure it is. Ankiel is not REALLY a prospect and we need hitting something fierce. It's time to see what we have before next season.

That's what September call ups (when you are ceratin you are out of it) and spring training are for.

[Young Drachma]

If you saw LaRussa's face, the Cardinals had been chomping at the bit to bring this guy back up. I think that if he's not going to make it with the ballclub, it's better for his future to know now rather than later. And they needed a sparkplug that a rookie wouldn't give them.

I like the move.

[Poli]

I'd like it if he were, I don't know, an infielder.

I hear Taguchi's a great infielder. Heh.

[MizzouRah]

Peter Gammons would disagree.

Peter Gammons is an MLB shrew, so really his opinion means squat to me.

[MizzouRah]

That's what September call ups (when you are ceratin you are out of it) and spring training are for.

Are you joking? The guy has more HR's than anyone in AAA and he's 28 freaking years old.. it's time to see if he can cut the majors as a hitter. I mean Edmonds and this revolving door outfield are doing so well.

[Poli]

Yeah, I consider Hall of Fame baseball writers who call the Cardinals "the crown jewel of baseball" worthless.

You're probably right on this one.

[primelord]

Are you joking? The guy has more HR's than anyone in AAA and he's 28 freaking years old.. it's time to see if he can cut the majors as a hitter. I mean Edmonds and this revolving door outfield are doing so well.

I am not joking.

[Young Drachma]

I spent quite a bit of time in St. Louis watching Cardinals games when I stationed near there. Not only was it awesome that the Cards let military members get into the games free (via the press gate) with their active or retired military IDs, but...the fans were pleasant, the stands are packed even during day games in May and they know their baseball.

I'd say the fans in Boston are more 'passionate' about the product on the field and Yankees fans are more voiciferious, but....St. Louis is seriously a place that I really enjoyed watching a MLB game.

[cartman]

I am not joking.

There's nothing more serious than a Primelord about to charge your ass...

[ISiddiqui]

And Ankiel hits two more today!

Wow!!!

[lighthousekeeper]

holy crap!

[MikeVic]

Steroids.

[st.cronin]

Primelord got him all riled up.

[bhlloy]

Steroids.


Not sure if you were serious or not, but it's definitely my first thought as well. And MLB is truly screwed if that is the average fans reaction to what should be a feel-good story like Ankiel.

[MikeVic]

Not sure if you were serious or not, but it's definitely my first thought as well. And MLB is truly screwed if that is the average fans reaction to what should be a feel-good story like Ankiel.

I'm half-serious. :) I don't want to think it, but it crosses my mind. That was a VERY quick transition from pitcher to hitter. And if you look at his minor league stats, all he had really going for him was power. He seems like a guy that would be desperate to keep on playing baseball at a high level. Mix all those together, and it's kind of fishy.

[Eaglesfan27]

Not sure if you were serious or not, but it's definitely my first thought as well. And MLB is truly screwed if that is the average fans reaction to what should be a feel-good story like Ankiel.

That was my first thought as well, and I agree that MLB is screwed.

[Danny]

They've had minor league testing well before they even had MLB testing and that program has always been pretty tough. HGH, who knows of course since they don't test for it.

Also, while I am definitely against steroids and other performance enhancers, I believe people vastly overate their effectiveness. Of course, we are all guessing, but from everything I've read, their effect on hitting a home run, throwing a fastball and overall baseball play is probably pretty low. The main effectiveness would seem to come from the ability to recover from injury quicker and increased longevity. That said, we really don't have any specific tests to measure what if any effect steroids truly do have on hitting a baseball. Even if Ankiel was/is on steroids, I doubt they have much to do with his ability to transition from pitcher to hitter and get back to the majors.

[st.cronin]

Wasn't Ankiel a good hitter when he was a pitcher?

[Arles]

I'm half-serious. :) I don't want to think it, but it crosses my mind. That was a VERY quick transition from pitcher to hitter. And if you look at his minor league stats, all he had really going for him was power. He seems like a guy that would be desperate to keep on playing baseball at a high level. Mix all those together, and it's kind of fishy.
If steroids/HGH are easy enough to obtain to where a washed up pitcher can use them without detection, I'm guessing it's fairly prevalent in the minors (esp since most players there are "desperate to keep on playing baseball at a high level"). So, given that backdrop of many minor league players using, doesn't Ankiel still get some credit for essentially slaughtering the HR/AB leaders in AAA?

I find it interesting that most people treat steroids like it's a major problem, yet only Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi and Rick Ankiel have figured out how to get any major benefit from it (ie, everyone else is using some kind of placebo). Either we are all blowing it out of proportion (at which case I doubt Ankiel would be using it) or it's so prevalent that half Ankiel's teammates are using it (as are his opponents). Either case seems to indicate that what Ankiel is doing is impressive.

[Fonzie]

Wasn't Ankiel a good hitter when he was a pitcher?

He was indeed. During his only full big league season (2000) he hit .250 with 2 home runs and 9 RBI (at age 20).

I'm glad to see him having some success. I hope it continues.

[larrymcg421]

And if you look at his minor league stats, all he had really going for him was power.

But wouldn't this be true of anyone who had strong arms (I'm assuming he did, right?) but less practical hitting experience than those around him?

[MikeVic]

I can't help but shake the half-feeling I get when I see or hear about Ankiel. I like that he's trying hard to be a hitter now; I felt so bad for him in the meltdown.

[st.cronin]

all he had really going for him was power.

Isn't this a bit like saying that "all a girl has going for her is a great pair of boobs?" What else do you really need?

[MikeVic]

Isn't this a bit like saying that "all a girl has going for her is a great pair of boobs?" What else do you really need?

I mean, his OBP was bad, and his average was below .250. I like more rounded hitters.

[Logan]

I mean, his OBP was bad, and his average was below .250. I like more rounded hitters.

I like more rounded boobs.

[MikeVic]

I like more rounded boobs.

Yeah, those are nice. I prefer those to saggy.

[Poli]

Great game to be at today...the crowd got louder even when he caught the routine balls today.

[stevew]

Is a 28 year old really a "prospect?" I thought at 26 his bars turned gold, and he was no longer listed on anyone's top 10 list.

[MizzouRah]

Yeah, we should have kept him in AAA. :p

I'm going to see him today.. hope he's in the linup. Hmmm... hopefully a RH Dodger is pitching today.

[Poli]

He sure is a great prospect!

You're out of luck.

[MizzouRah]

He sure is a great prospect!

You're out of luck.

Oh no you didn't!

[Poli]

I know you're mad at me, but it was no reason to rip my mailbox off the post and lay it on the ground beside it. Seriously.

Today's starter:

Full Name: Mark Allan Hendrickson

Throws: Left

[Poli]

BTW, the game yesterday was my first at the "new" stadium.

[MizzouRah]

I know you're mad at me, but it was no reason to rip my mailbox off the post and lay it on the ground beside it. Seriously.

Today's starter:

Full Name: Mark Allan Hendrickson

Throws: Left

Hey, how did you know that happened to my mailbox while we were on vacation! :mad:

Come back and try that on Tuesday, but you better bring something to keep your hands from falling off!

Dammit, a lefty today? I can already see this lineup....

[korme]

I know you're mad at me, but it was no reason to rip my mailbox off the post and lay it on the ground beside it. Seriously.

Today's starter:

Full Name: Mark Allan Hendrickson

Throws: Left

In another 'wonder-if-ya-knew' moment, he used to be an NBA player for the Sixers.

[Poli]

Surprise, surprise. I really didn't expect Ankiel to get the start today.

[MizzouRah]

Surprise, surprise. I really didn't expect Ankiel to get the start today.

Me either, especially with LaRussa at the helm. Great game today, my dad's seats are in the shade, 3rd base side.. wasn't too bad heat wise. Blew $60 like it was milk money. :)

[Young Drachma]

Hey, how is new Busch? I'm looking to get out there at some point. I went to the old park a ton when I still in the military and stationed near there.

[MizzouRah]

Hey, how is new Busch? I'm looking to get out there at some point. I went to the old park a ton when I still in the military and stationed near there.

Besides all the advertising... I like it alot. I just hate looking out at the scoreboard and seeing all that friggin advertising.

[Poli]

I was thinking the same thing when I was there Saturday. When I watch the videos of the older parks, though, and see advertising on their walls, it makes me believe I was just spoiled through the 80s and 90s.

I guess I made my peace with it.

[MizzouRah]

Me too PT, me too.

[korme]

Go Reds

[MizzouRah]

Rick is still tearing it up. 7th homer tonight....

[lighthousekeeper]

dude's bustin' out like Kevin Maas - hit 2 more home runs today!

[GoldenEagle]

He has 7 RBIs in today's game.

[ISiddiqui]

Holy crap! :eek:

That's freaking insane!

[SackAttack]

Rain delay, but it'd just revert to the end of the 8th anyway if it's called, so his explosive diarrhea of the bat should be safe. :D

[Young Drachma]

Wow. What a cool story. Especially he can hang around the big leagues for another decade.

[korme]

I no like

[Karlifornia]

How can anyone hate on Rick Ankiel? It's truly amazing, what he's doing.

[sterlingice]

I think it has to do with the fact that he plays for the dastardly Cardinals ;)

SI

[k0ruptr]

yea, after the first couple homers, I was like wow feel good story for the guy, probably wont last. Now its more like hmm hes either amazingly awesome or hes got the same "doctor" as pujols. I keed I keed.

[SackAttack]

yea, after the first couple homers, I was like wow feel good story for the guy, probably wont last. Now its more like hmm hes either amazingly awesome or hes got the same "doctor" as pujols. I keed I keed.

Colt Brennan molests kittens.

[Schmidty]

So now ESPN is saying he's done HGH.....

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3008363

[k0ruptr]

Holy crap what have I started.

[Eaglesfan27]

Sadly, that is not surprising. :(

[Logan]

How can anyone hate on Rick Ankiel? It's truly amazing, what he's doing.

Ammo Received.

Here's a direct link to the NY Daily News article.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2007/09/06/2007-09-06_rick_ankiel_received_12month_supply_of_h.html

[JonInMiddleGA]

Unfrickinbelievable. Except that it really isn't unbelievable at all, and I guess that's the state of affairs we're in right now.

[Danny]

It's unfortunate, but I'd guess close to half of professional baseball/football could very well be doing this since they don't test for it.

[stevew]

Another player on one of Larussa's teams linked to PED? Say it ain't so.

Some day they will get Pujols.....some day.

[Warhammer]

The funny thing about Ankiel is that he is actually hitting for a decent average in the bigs. In AAA Memphis he was only a .260 hitter.

[MikeVic]

Wasn't there a small discussion about Ankiel and steroids or whatever in this thread, or the MLB thread already?

[DanGarion]

Let's string the guy up for something perfectly legal in baseball in 2004 when he may have done it!

[Young Drachma]

Meh. This is a non-story. Given how few people do what he's doing, I'm more than happy to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Young Drachma]

Let's string the guy up for something perfectly legal in baseball in 2004 when he may have done it!

Exactly.

[MizzouRah]

Baseball is really pissing me off. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

[GoDukes]

Let's string the guy up for something perfectly legal in baseball in 2004 when he may have done it!

I agree. When McGwire took Andro, it was perfectly legal, and his record is not tainted at all.

[Arles]

Rodney Harrison does HGH in the NFL - ESPN says "Meh, who cares"
Wrestlers do HGH - ESPN yawns
Rick Ankiel does HGH - ESPN is OUTRAGED!!!

Come on, people need to lighten up. Either give up sports or just deal with the fact that performance enhancers are a part of today's athletes. ESPN needs to get over itself as to 90% of baseball fans this is a non-story.

[Logan]

Let's string the guy up for something perfectly legal in baseball in 2004 when he may have done it!

Like people string up Bonds for the same thing?

He used it to gain an edge in performing. Who the fuck cares about the legality of it? No one wants him thrown in jail. They just choose to discount his achievements. Feel free to argue about how we should then discount hundreds of other players' achievements -- steroids, greenies, doctoring baseballs, whatever. All of that has absolutely no bearing on Ankiel using a performance-enhancing drug.

[Young Drachma]

They said he did it in the minors and he stopped before 2005. He's in the majors just now. I don't think there is a correlation.

[Logan]

Rodney Harrison does HGH in the NFL - ESPN says "Meh, who cares"
Wrestlers do HGH - ESPN yawns
Rick Ankiel does HGH - ESPN is OUTRAGED!!!

Come on, people need to lighten up. Either give up sports or just deal with the fact that performance enhancers are a part of today's athletes. ESPN needs to get over itself as to 90% of baseball fans this is a non-story.

I completely disagree with your number.

For whatever reason, baseball gets destroyed by this stuff, and any other sport doesn't. I don't think it has anything to do with ESPN. They are giving the fans what they want to hear.

[Karlifornia]

Wow....I just woke up, opened the paper...and saw "Ankiel May Have Used HGH" and immediately thought about Koruptor.

I'm not even going the Bonds route. I just want to see some consistency among people's opinions.

[Logan]

They said he did it in the minors and he stopped before 2005. He's in the majors just now. I don't think there is a correlation.

No, we know that he stopped receiving it from that particular doctor/company before 2005. There could be another company out there just waiting to get busted.

Not saying he has one way or the other...but it's just as possible that he never stopped as it is he stopped.

[MikeVic]

No, we know that he stopped receiving it from that particular doctor/company before 2005. There could be another company out there just waiting to get busted.

Not saying he has one way or the other...but it's just as possible that he never stopped as it is he stopped.


You could say the same about Ankiel?

I don't want to get into the whole thing again, but it sucks that it seems like such a majority of athletes for certain sports are using performance enhancers. I don't seem to hear this about all sports though. Not in basketball, hockey, or soccer. As much as I don't want to stop watching baseball or football (and can't really... I like them too much, although baseball was gone down for me a lot)... it's getting really sad.

[Karlifornia]

As a Bonds fan, I find this amusing

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d183/rfusstanford/1342709782_01a49eb3f5.jpg

[ISiddiqui]

No, we know that he stopped receiving it from that particular doctor/company before 2005. There could be another company out there just waiting to get busted.

Not saying he has one way or the other...but it's just as possible that he never stopped as it is he stopped.

True. All we know is that he stopped using that company after 2005. Doesn't mean he completely stopped. He may have, but you know most people are going to think he just switched companies or something for a bit more secrecy.

[TroyF]

I agree. When McGwire took Andro, it was perfectly legal, and his record is not tainted at all.


McGwire likely took much more than Andro. There would have been ZERO reason for him to have went before congress and saying "no comment" 200x if that were the situation. It was KNOWN he was using andro during the chase. If that's all it was he was using, he'd have said it. While he'd be looked down on by some people, he wouldn't be caught up in the steroids/HGH debate.

As far as the rest of this garbage goes, it's just sad. I want to look at Rick Ankiel and be happy about a wonderful story. When I find out he's linked to HGH, that besomes difficult, if not impossible. A lot of people can overlook it and say "it wasn't against the rules of baseball at the time" "everyone is doing it" "it's not that big of a deal"

Those people are better than me. I know a lot of guys do it. Some of my favorite NFL players do it or have done it. (Julius Peppers, I'm looking at you) I still can't help but lose respect for those who are caught. He's still a good story, just not quite as good as he was a few days ago.

[TroyF]

Dola:

I wish the outrage were bigger in the NFL.

Wrestling? It's not a sport. I hate seeing any of them do it, but it isn't exactly hurting competitive balance.

Baseball? It's the game where numbers mean the most. A player is judged more by numbers than any other thing. It's why there is more outrage and that's not likely to change anytime soon.

[JonInMiddleGA]

ESPN needs to get over itself as to 90% of baseball fans this is a non-story.

:eek:
Huh?
:eek:

A non-story to baseball fans?
Unless you're using the term "baseball fans" to mean those who attend a few games and watch less than half the game while yakking on their cell phone while the use their corporate season ticket freebie to attend mostly because the company didn't have concert or movie ticket freebies, I'd really have to wonder what planet you're living on these days? People who actually give a damn about baseball care a great deal, those who happen to show up because they don't have anything better to do I really can't speak for.

[gstelmack]

I completely disagree with your number.

For whatever reason, baseball gets destroyed by this stuff, and any other sport doesn't. I don't think it has anything to do with ESPN. They are giving the fans what they want to hear.

The difference is that baseball didn't do anything about it until very recently, and was forced to practically at gunpoint. The NFL, on the other hand, has been punishing guys that get caught for a while now. I still maintain that that is a key difference in the public attitude towards the whole thing.

[miami_fan]

Mr. Ankiel,

George Mitchell would like to talk to you.

[Logan]

The difference is that baseball didn't do anything about it until very recently, and was forced to practically at gunpoint. The NFL, on the other hand, has been punishing guys that get caught for a while now. I still maintain that that is a key difference in the public attitude towards the whole thing.

I guess that could be a piece of it. But I think it has much, much more to do with the whole "America's pasttime" stuff and the assault on well-known, easily-quoted, numeric records. And these records are for the HR -- what us baseball fans value the most.

If the only steroid out there allowed guys to steal at unprecedented clips, and the biggest records out there to be challenged were Rickey's, I don't think there would be anywhere near the uproar.

edit: Although anything that gives more Rickey screen time is okay in my book.

[Atocep]

LaRussa will blame the feds for being too nosy and the media for reporting it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

LaRussa will blame the feds for being too nosy and the media for reporting it.

And then find a bar to drive home from.

[larrymcg421]

Rodney Harrison does HGH in the NFL - ESPN says "Meh, who cares"
Wrestlers do HGH - ESPN yawns
Rick Ankiel does HGH - ESPN is OUTRAGED!!!

Come on, people need to lighten up. Either give up sports or just deal with the fact that performance enhancers are a part of today's athletes. ESPN needs to get over itself as to 90% of baseball fans this is a non-story.

Come on, give me a break.

Nobody is surprised that wrestlers do HGH, and since when do wrestlers make it on ESPN coverage anyways? (Unless you mean Olympic wrestling, and I'm sure a story about Rulon Gardner would get a ton of play).

Outside of Pats fans and maybe other teams in the AFC East, not many people give a shit about Rodney Harrison. I guarantee you ESPN would be giving a ton of coverage if they found out Peyton Manning was juicing.

Rick Ankiel is one of the best baseball stories in a long, long time. He's practically living the Robert Redford role in The Natural. This is why it's getting so much coverage.

Also, if performance enhancing drugs are part of today's game, the reaction of most fans won't be to go easy on the guys who are using, it will be to stop being fans.

[Crapshoot]

Couldn't care less.

[miami_fan]

Come on, give me a break.

Nobody is surprised that wrestlers do HGH, and since when do wrestlers make it on ESPN coverage anyways? (Unless you mean Olympic wrestling, and I'm sure a story about Rulon Gardner would get a ton of play).

Outside of Pats fans and maybe other teams in the AFC East, not many people give a shit about Rodney Harrison. I guarantee you ESPN would be giving a ton of coverage if they found out Peyton Manning was juicing.

Rick Ankiel is one of the best baseball stories in a long, long time. He's practically living the Robert Redford role in The Natural. This is why it's getting so much coverage.

Also, if performance enhancing drugs are part of today's game, the reaction of most fans won't be to go easy on the guys who are using, it will be to stop being fans.

IF PEDs are a part of today's game? By game I mean ALL of the sports not just baseball.

[Ryan S]

Come on, people need to lighten up. Either give up sports or just deal with the fact that performance enhancers are a part of today's athletes.

I am inclined to give up sports if this crap continues. In this case, if it is proven to be true, this season's feel good story has been shot to hell.

Even if it is not true, the damage has been done.

[Butter]

ESPN needs to get over itself as to 90% of Cardinal fans this is a non-story.

Fix'd.

[Maple Leafs]

Meh. This is a non-story. Given how few people do what he's doing, I'm more than happy to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Isn't this basically backwards?

"Because he's doing something no other athelete has been able to do in almost a century, I will give him the benefit of the doubt about his use of performance enhancing drugs?" Whu? Is this some sort of Lance Armstrong/Barry Bonds defence?

[rkmsuf]

Isn't this basically backwards?

"Because he's doing something no other athelete has been able to do in almost a century, I will give him the benefit of the doubt about his use of performance enhancing drugs?" Whu? Is this some sort of Lance Armstrong/Barry Bonds defence?

so HGH turned him into a super outfielder?

interesting.

[Maple Leafs]

Rodney Harrison does HGH in the NFL - ESPN says "Meh, who cares"
Wrestlers do HGH - ESPN yawns
Rick Ankiel does HGH - ESPN is OUTRAGED!!!

Rodney Harrison has a few good games - ESPN says "Meh, who cares"
Wrestlers have a few good matches - ESPN yawns
Rick Ankiel has a few good games - FRONT PAGE NEWS on ESPN.com!!!

Can't have it both ways, right?

[Maple Leafs]

so HGH turned him into a super outfielder?

interesting.
Oh lord, not the "it doesn't matter that he cheated because the cheating couldn't account for 100% of his accomplishments" defence...

[larrymcg421]

so HGH turned him into a super outfielder?

interesting.

Nobody would give a shit (or even know about) his "OMG super duper outfielding" if he wasn't hitting HR's.

[Desmond]

People need to stop getting so outraged everytime a name or names come out. If this outrages you then you need to take a step back and realize that just about the past 10-15 years of all sports have to be nullified.

EVERYONE was or still is on something. This idea that a few players here and there were skirting the rules and juicing in some form while the rest of the league were saints is just rediculous.

[MikeVic]

People need to stop getting so outraged everytime a name or names come out. If this outrages you then you need to take a step back and realize that just about the past 10-15 years of all sports have to be nullified.

EVERYONE was or still is on something. This idea that a few players here and there were skirting the rules and juicing in some form while the rest of the league were saints is just rediculous.

I refuse to believe John Olerud, Julio Franco, Rickey Henderson, and a few others have ever taken a PED.

[larrymcg421]

It's amusing to see the different defenses coming out.

We hear that most baseball fans (maybe even 90%) don't care about PED, but then at the same time the defenders seem so pissed that so many people care about it.

Which is it?

[larrymcg421]

People need to stop getting so outraged everytime a name or names come out. If this outrages you then you need to take a step back and realize that just about the past 10-15 years of all sports have to be nullified.

EVERYONE was or still is on something. This idea that a few players here and there were skirting the rules and juicing in some form while the rest of the league were saints is just rediculous.

My two favorite players since I started watching baseball are Dale Murphy and Greg Maddux. I am pretty damn certain that neither of them juiced.

[MikeVic]

My two favorite players sinc eI started watching baseball are Dale Murphy and Greg Maddux. I am pretty damn certain that neither of them juiced.

Maddux is on my list as well, and I also can't see Vladimir Guerrero taking anything.

[k0ruptr]

Frank Thomas is one who I believe never took anything.

[Maple Leafs]

Frank Thomas is one who I believe never took anything.
Just curios... why?

[Karlifornia]

I believe Rafael Belliard never took anything.

[MikeVic]

And if one of the players that I believe never took does end up being revealed as someone who has... it's one of those things that would get me to stop watching for real. The whole ordeal that's still going on with Chris Benoit (in wrestling), and the tons of early deaths has put me off wrestling big time. I can't even stay on the channel for a few minutes without getting some weird feeling that I don't like. It's weird, but I know it means I can't watch wrestling for the foreseeable future. Such a thing is possible with the NFL and NBA as well for me.

[k0ruptr]

Just curios... why?

He has been outspoken about steroids since 2000 (maybe even earlier), even before they were such a big issue in baseball. I've heard him speak and read some things hes said about them, and it seems to me he truly believes the dangers of PEDS and has never messed with em.

but maybe hes just foolin me.

[k0ruptr]

dola
Not sure if this is a good thing or not but this is what he said

When he arrived in the minors in 1989, Thomas said, he was stunned to find there were no drug testing procedures in place in pro baseball. He was coming out of a college program where there had been testing.

"I was the one who was naive about what's going on," Thomas said. "I said, 'No one is taking that stuff. Guys are just working harder and harder in the gym.' I expected there would be a strong drug-testing program, and I just didn't think baseball players would do it. I did not think it was the kind of sport where guys would need steroids."

[Arles]

I have been against this steroids witch-hunt from the start and haven't changed my tune yet. My problem has always been with this baseline of "clean" athletes in the 50s-70s. I am no doctor, but I can't see how a star using an enhancer that improves hand-eye skills and alertness (ie, Willie Mays and greenies) is any better than one that improves strength (ie, Bonds and steroids). I certainly haven't seen any scientific data that shows being stronger is better than quicker at the plate.

So, why are people outraged at Bonds, but not at Mays? The only discernible difference is media coverage and increased scrutiny by the fans. Now, I sympathize with the people upset at all athletes from the beginning of baseball to now, but at some point we (as fans) have to get over it. We constantly demand better and more exciting performances, yet we get all upset when the athletes trying to deliver these performances push the envelop and use a performance enhancer.

[larrymcg421]

So, Pedro Cerrano. Juiced or not?

[k0ruptr]

after he couldn't hit the curve , he started juicin

[Eaglesfan27]

He has been outspoken about steroids since 2000 (maybe even earlier), even before they were such a big issue in baseball. I've heard him speak and read some things hes said about them, and it seems to me he truly believes the dangers of PEDS and has never messed with em.

but maybe hes just foolin me.

Not to mention Thomas looked rotund and had a natural big look to him. I'm amazed that some people think this is a non-story to 90% of baseball fans. This issue is killing baseball for me. I haven't watched a single game all year. I used to watch dozens if not hundreds of games a year. I know this makes me a hypocrite, but it is mostly hushed up in football, so I can at least pretend it isn't as rampant there and still enjoy football. If more football players start coming to light (which is possible with all of the info coming out), it is going to dampen my enjoyment of that sport as well.

[larrymcg421]

No, we don't have to get over it. I don't care what happened in the past. I wasn't there. I want it to stop now.

[Arles]

I'm amazed that some people think this is a non-story to 90% of baseball fans. This issue is killing baseball for me.
Both you and Jon are talking about hardcore, statistical baseball fans. To that group, this is a big issue. But to all fans (from casual to hardcore), it's a much smaller % (maybe more than 10, but not much IMO). Just look at baseball attendance and TV ratings and there's no evidence of people leaving the game.

[Crapshoot]

I have been against this steroids witch-hunt from the start and haven't changed my tune yet. My problem has always been with this baseline of "clean" athletes in the 50s-70s. I am no doctor, but I can't see how a star using an enhancer that improves hand-eye skills and alertness (ie, Willie Mays and greenies) is any better than one that improves strength (ie, Bonds and steroids). I certainly haven't seen any scientific data that shows being stronger is better than quicker at the plate.

So, why are people outraged at Bonds, but not at Mays? The only discernible difference is media coverage and increased scrutiny by the fans. Now, I sympathize with the people upset at all athletes from the beginning of baseball to now, but at some point we (as fans) have to get over it. We constantly demand better and more exciting performances, yet we get all upset when the athletes trying to deliver these performances push the envelop and use a performance enhancer.

Any idiot who thinks the 20-70's were some era of cleanliness, when "men were men", etc etc has no clue what they're talking about. From greenies to spitballs to a hundred other things, baseball has a long and varied history of cheating.

[Crapshoot]

Both you and Jon are talking about hardcore, statistical baseball fans. To that group, this is a big issue. But to all fans (from casual to hardcore), it's a much smaller % (maybe more than 10, but not much IMO). Just look at baseball attendance and TV ratings and there's no evidence of people leaving the game.

Shit, I think they're wrong. I'm a hardcore fan - I'd say far more than EagleFan27 or JIMGA (well, maybe not JIMGA) I'd say I spend more time following baseball than I do any other sport - by far. I think its a witch hunt, and the media's hysteria has done everything to make it a bigger issue than it is.

[Young Drachma]

Any idiot who thinks the 20-70's were some era of cleanliness, when "men were men", etc etc has no clue what they're talking about. From greenies to spitballs to a hundred other things, baseball has a long and varied history of cheating.

Exactly. Don't people realize that cheating has always been in the game, it's just now..that it's more sophisticated. Even still, I don't really care. I didn't care before, I didn't care with Bonds and still don't now.

People need to stop idolizing sports heroes and get a grip. Statistics are only worth the paper they're written on. We'll never know if Babe Ruth would've been as great had he faced the best pitchers of the day who weren't allowed to play, we don't know how he'd fare in a modern context or how Hank Aaron's career would have played out now.

All we have is what we have before us. And the guys who play now go out there and play on the same fields that those guys did, using the rules we have now and whatever they have at their disposal.

Whether you like it or not, it'll always be that way and it'll get worse before it gets better. But these witchhunts are going to turn major league sports into the Olympics. An irrelevant spectacle of nothingness.

[Travis]

Personally, my biggest problem with all this isn't the established records or players, it's the message being sent to kids that they have to do these sorts of things to become professional athletes. It's not just seeing the high profile superstars getting hit on this (this is how you make the biggest money), it's also seeing the lower tier players getting busted for it that really drives home the message that you need every edge, legal or not, to have any chance at making it.

Saw too much of it just in my limited exposure to guys trying to make a run, can't even imagine what it's like now and the pressure that must go on at the developmental stages.

[dime]

if the cardinals were an ncaa program, they'd be getting the death penalty for a lack of institutional control.

the manager passes out drunk in his car at a stoplight, the reliever gets drunk at the team broadcaster's bar and smashes into a parked car, the backup first baseman checks himself into rehab, and now we find that their minor league pitchers (ankiel and woodard) were popping growth hormone a couple years ago.

whether jocketty and the cards brass are just completely ignorant (doubtful) or looking the other way (likely), they should still be ashamed. these are not "tragedies", walt. they are preventable and somewhat predictable outcomes to the culture that has developed in your organization. when yet another non-prospect from the cards comes up and starts putting up surprising numbers on the mound or at the plate...won't get fooled again.

[Arles]

Good thing they aren't. I mean, it's horrible that an organization consisting of hundreds of people would have a long reliever and backup infielder with issues, as well as a prospect tied to drug use 3 years ago. I mean, imagine if they were like the Mets of the 80s (Straw, Gooden, ...) or the Yankees of the 90s (Steve Howe, Straw, Gooden, ...). Heck, what would happen to the Bengals if they were an NCAA program - Yikes!

I mean, it's a shock that 2-3% of an organization have had these kinds of issues. They should have had more control over that 3% and there's no excuse for not doing so.

[TroyF]

I'm not telling anyone else how they should feel about it. Don't anyone dare tell me how I should feel about it.

1) I know there was cheating in past years.
2) That doesn't mean I have to like it or support it. I simply wasn't there to be outraged by it.
3) I do not believe everyone is juicing with steroids. I think there is a large number of players doing it, but I don't think it's everyone.
4) Just because some bastards cheated doesn't mean I'm forced to give up one of my favorite things to do. (watch and follow sports) It's not my fault there are scumbags that cheat. I'm not giving up what I enjoy because of their idiocy.
5) I'm damned well going to call out the guys who are caught and have my opinion change of them. Deal with it. If it doesn't bother you, stand up and cheer them. I'll sit in my seat and watch you. We'll co-exist just fine.

[Eaglesfan27]

I'm not telling anyone else how they should feel about it. Don't anyone dare tell me how I should feel about it.

1) I know there was cheating in past years.
2) That doesn't mean I have to like it or support it. I simply wasn't there to be outraged by it.
3) I do not believe everyone is juicing with steroids. I think there is a large number of players doing it, but I don't think it's everyone.
4) Just because some bastards cheated doesn't mean I'm forced to give up one of my favorite things to do. (watch and follow sports) It's not my fault there are scumbags that cheat. I'm not giving up what I enjoy because of their idiocy.
5) I'm damned well going to call out the guys who are caught and have my opinion change of them. Deal with it. If it doesn't bother you, stand up and cheer them. I'll sit in my seat and watch you. We'll co-exist just fine.

Summarizes my feelings almost perfectly.

[larrymcg421]

I'm not telling anyone else how they should feel about it. Don't anyone dare tell me how I should feel about it.

1) I know there was cheating in past years.
2) That doesn't mean I have to like it or support it. I simply wasn't there to be outraged by it.
3) I do not believe everyone is juicing with steroids. I think there is a large number of players doing it, but I don't think it's everyone.
4) Just because some bastards cheated doesn't mean I'm forced to give up one of my favorite things to do. (watch and follow sports) It's not my fault there are scumbags that cheat. I'm not giving up what I enjoy because of their idiocy.
5) I'm damned well going to call out the guys who are caught and have my opinion change of them. Deal with it. If it doesn't bother you, stand up and cheer them. I'll sit in my seat and watch you. We'll co-exist just fine.

+1

[st.cronin]

I'm not telling anyone else how they should feel about it. Don't anyone dare tell me how I should feel about it.

1) I know there was cheating in past years.
2) That doesn't mean I have to like it or support it. I simply wasn't there to be outraged by it.
3) I do not believe everyone is juicing with steroids. I think there is a large number of players doing it, but I don't think it's everyone.
4) Just because some bastards cheated doesn't mean I'm forced to give up one of my favorite things to do. (watch and follow sports) It's not my fault there are scumbags that cheat. I'm not giving up what I enjoy because of their idiocy.
5) I'm damned well going to call out the guys who are caught and have my opinion change of them. Deal with it. If it doesn't bother you, stand up and cheer them. I'll sit in my seat and watch you. We'll co-exist just fine.


+1

Baseball was once my favorite sport, its now about 6th. I have watched maybe 5 games in the last three years, including postseason. I haven't been to an MLB game I think since the 1990's. There are many reasons for this, and the cheating is one of them.

[General Mike]

If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'.

[lordscarlet]

+1

Baseball was once my favorite sport, its now about 6th. I have watched maybe 5 games in the last three years, including postseason. I haven't been to an MLB game I think since the 1990's. There are many reasons for this, and the cheating is one of them.

It's actually the opposite for me. Growing up (pre-high school) it was probably #2. As I grew up it slipped to barely even registering. However, MLB won me over by finally giving me a home team. How long will that last? I don't know. The euphoria has not worn off, and with a new stadium next year they've bought at least a couple more years from me. When a player I follow and support is discovered as "cheating", I might care more. But, really, the Bonds (et al) scandal hasn't really phased my interest. HR numbers have never been that impressive to me anyway (I grew up a Don Mattingly fan).

[Crapshoot]

+1

Baseball was once my favorite sport, its now about 6th. I have watched maybe 5 games in the last three years, including postseason. I haven't been to an MLB game I think since the 1990's. There are many reasons for this, and the cheating is one of them.

And yet, I feel confident you watch the NFL. The advent of 300 pound men running 4.7 40's is "au natural", but baseball is some sort of wasteland. Again, your choice what you watch - but I always find the moralizing more than a tad over-the-top.

I love baseball - up there with cricket and football/soccer as the greatest game around. I'm just tired of it being shit on, especially in comparison to a sport (American football) that simply markets itself light years better. It frustrates me that baseball has Selig when the NFL has Goodell, but those are the breaks at some level.

[MizzouRah]

And yet, I feel confident you watch the NFL. The advent of 300 pound men running 4.7 40's is "au natural", but baseball is some sort of wasteland. Again, your choice what you watch - but I always find the moralizing more than a tad over-the-top.

I love baseball - up there with cricket and football/soccer as the greatest game around. I'm just tired of it being shit on, especially in comparison to a sport (American football) that simply markets itself light years better. It frustrates me that baseball has Selig when the NFL has Goodell, but those are the breaks at some level.

My thoughts EXACTLY. I love football, but you have to be out of your mind to think that baseball is the only pro sport where players are using PEDs.

[TroyF]

And yet, I feel confident you watch the NFL. The advent of 300 pound men running 4.7 40's is "au natural", but baseball is some sort of wasteland. Again, your choice what you watch - but I always find the moralizing more than a tad over-the-top.

I love baseball - up there with cricket and football/soccer as the greatest game around. I'm just tired of it being shit on, especially in comparison to a sport (American football) that simply markets itself light years better. It frustrates me that baseball has Selig when the NFL has Goodell, but those are the breaks at some level.

Those are the breaks on a lot of levels. The NFL had steroid and drug testing in 1987. Think about that for a second. They didn't just eek in before the controversey hit, they were so far ahead of the curve there was no curve when they started dealing with the problem.

While there are NFL players who cheat and get away with it (and maybe more than we'd like to admit), the NFL does whatever it can to take care of the problem. You are a superstar on the AFC's best team? Bye Bye Merriman. 1/4 of the season for your first offense. You are a the leagues best young DE? See ya Julius Peppers. 1/4 of your season gone. Screw up again and you'll be gone for a year.

While guys like Gary Mathews Jr. and Rick Ankiel continue playing baseball despite them being involved in investigations dealing with HGH, the NFL guys will hammer players like Harrison. They even hammer the coaches who are involved. They don't want it in their sport and they do whatever they can to get it out.

They aren't going to be perfect at it, but both the owners and players have shown an intolerance for it. The second there is a test for HGH, NFL players will be pissing in a cup and getting it. That isn't just marketing, that's making a good faith attempt to remove it from your sport.

So yeah, baseball is behind. But it isn't a single person's fault. It's a culture where players have to much power and don't stand up for what's right. They are paying the price for that with the bad publicity. If they were smart, they'd deal with it and try to end the problem. Instead, unlike the NFL, they'll fight it tooth and nail when a test comes out for HGH. And they'll get the scorn they deserve when it happens.

[Eaglesfan27]

Those are the breaks on a lot of levels. The NFL had steroid and drug testing in 1987. Think about that for a second. They didn't just eek in before the controversey hit, they were so far ahead of the curve there was no curve when they started dealing with the problem.

While there are NFL players who cheat and get away with it (and maybe more than we'd like to admit), the NFL does whatever it can to take care of the problem. You are a superstar on the AFC's best team? Bye Bye Merriman. 1/4 of the season for your first offense. You are a the leagues best young DE? See ya Julius Peppers. 1/4 of your season gone. Screw up again and you'll be gone for a year.

While guys like Gary Mathews Jr. and Rick Ankiel continue playing baseball despite them being involved in investigations dealing with HGH, the NFL guys will hammer players like Harrison. They even hammer the coaches who are involved. They don't want it in their sport and they do whatever they can to get it out.

They aren't going to be perfect at it, but both the owners and players have shown an intolerance for it. The second there is a test for HGH, NFL players will be pissing in a cup and getting it. That isn't just marketing, that's making a good faith attempt to remove it from your sport.

So yeah, baseball is behind. But it isn't a single person's fault. It's a culture where players have to much power and don't stand up for what's right. They are paying the price for that with the bad publicity. If they were smart, they'd deal with it and try to end the problem. Instead, unlike the NFL, they'll fight it tooth and nail when a test comes out for HGH. And they'll get the scorn they deserve when it happens.


Well said. Football at least gives me the illusion that they are trying to clean up the game and keep it clean and they have done that for many years now.

[dime]

Good thing they aren't. I mean, it's horrible that an organization consisting of hundreds of people would have a long reliever and backup infielder with issues, as well as a prospect tied to drug use 3 years ago. I mean, imagine if they were like the Mets of the 80s (Straw, Gooden, ...) or the Yankees of the 90s (Steve Howe, Straw, Gooden, ...). Heck, what would happen to the Bengals if they were an NCAA program - Yikes!

I mean, it's a shock that 2-3% of an organization have had these kinds of issues. They should have had more control over that 3% and there's no excuse for not doing so.

Thanks for missing the point. The Mets did, in fact, catch hell for their mid-80s mayhem and are remembered for it more than for their on-field accomplishements. I don't think the Yankees are a smart comparison because those individuals had issues long before they joined the team.

With the Cardinals, the problem appears to be evident from the manager on down, and their typical stonewalling would indicate that they feel it's not an issue. Obviously, it is. If you choose to believe it's simply a coincidental string of "tragedies", as Walt Jocketty would have us believe...well, I question your critical thinking.

[MizzouRah]

Thanks for missing the point. The Mets did, in fact, catch hell for their mid-80s mayhem and are remembered for it more than for their on-field accomplishements. I don't think the Yankees are a smart comparison because those individuals had issues long before they joined the team.

With the Cardinals, the problem appears to be evident from the manager on down, and their typical stonewalling would indicate that they feel it's not an issue. Obviously, it is. If you choose to believe it's simply a coincidental string of "tragedies", as Walt Jocketty would have us believe...well, I question your critical thinking.

It's an issue in the ENTIRE MLB and we have a piece of shit commissioner who keeps letting it happen time and time again. Don't group this together with Tony driving drunk or Josh drinking and driving. Those are TOTALLY separate issues and it just so happens they've all happened this year. I mean, are the Cardinals now the Sopranos? :rolleyes:

[JonInMiddleGA]

Don't group this together with Tony driving drunk or Josh drinking and driving. Those are TOTALLY separate issues and it just so happens they've all happened this year. I mean, are the Cardinals now the Sopranos? :rolleyes:

I think the better question might be when "now" really started. I thought the point about lack of institutional control was very much on target as it appears that their problems may go a lot deeper than just random players and instead involve some unusual level of willingness to overlook situations happening on their watch.

[stevew]

The cardinals are clearly the Bengals of major league baseball.

[MizzouRah]

I think the better question might be when "now" really started. I thought the point about lack of institutional control was very much on target as it appears that their problems may go a lot deeper than just random players and instead involve some unusual level of willingness to overlook situations happening on their watch.

You may be right, but I still think they are separate issues.

[k0ruptr]

Im not sure I get all the digs at Peppers, wasnt it 2002 when he got in trouble? Has he done something since then that I'm not reading?

[st.cronin]

And yet, I feel confident you watch the NFL. The advent of 300 pound men running 4.7 40's is "au natural", but baseball is some sort of wasteland. Again, your choice what you watch - but I always find the moralizing more than a tad over-the-top.

I love baseball - up there with cricket and football/soccer as the greatest game around. I'm just tired of it being shit on, especially in comparison to a sport (American football) that simply markets itself light years better. It frustrates me that baseball has Selig when the NFL has Goodell, but those are the breaks at some level.

As I said, the cheating is just a small part of why I've soured on baseball. If that were the only problem I had with the sport, I'd be a happy fan. Just like I am with the NFL.

[TroyF]

Im not sure I get all the digs at Peppers, wasnt it 2002 when he got in trouble? Has he done something since then that I'm not reading?

Huh?

Yeah, it was 2002 he got busted. I'm not sure what "dig" I've taken at him. I've brought him up a few times in this thread to show that. . .


1) The NFL doesn't care who it suspends and has shown anyone who tests positive will pay a price.

2) That there are players who I admired a great deal before they got caught who have lost a lot of my respect.

He's a wonderful football player, but. . . ***My viewpoint only, yours may differ, that's fine*** In my eyes, a cheater is a cheater.
I don't care if he cheated in 2002 or last year. He cheated. I'll never view him in the same way as I viewed him before. I still think he's an incredible football player, but I've lost respect for him.

Is he losing sleep because Troy from Denver thinks he's a scumbag cheater? No chance in hell. Did some other player I have respect for cheat at some point, is Julius the only one I admired who doped up? Nope.

But he got caught and my opinion has changed of him because of it. I don't know if Champ Bailey does roids or HGH. I doubt it, but I'll never know this for sure. All I can do is go on the information I've been given. Peppers and Merriman? FAIL. Sorry. Again, YMMV.

[clintl]

If Ankiel stopped taking HGH when baseball banned it, I don't have a problem with that. I don't think it's rational to call him a cheater if he wasn't breaking the rules. Blame baseball if you like for not having a rule, but don't blame Ankiel. I'm not even convinced HGH should be banned, considering there is no effective test for it and it does not have severe adverse long-term health effects. The main moral argument for banning steroids is the long-term health effects. Otherwise, what separates things like HGH and steroids from other supplemental training tools and methods?

[Maple Leafs]

If Ankiel stopped taking HGH when baseball banned it, I don't have a problem with that. I don't think it's rational to call him a cheater if he wasn't breaking the rules. Blame baseball if you like for not having a rule, but don't blame Ankiel.
I can see this argument when you're talking about Bonds and McGwire using steroids when MLB didn't have any sort of performance-enhancing drug policy at all. Baseball hadn't even addressed this issue, period. So while I can still consider them frauds, maybe they're not "cheaters" in the strictest sense.

But once baseball bans steroids, I have a hard time shrugging off a guy who just moves to the next performance enhancer. I'm sure there are performance enhancers out there right now that aren't specifically listed in baseball's policy, that doesn't mean that players who are using them should get a free pass. Baseball drew a line in the sand on performance enhancers (even though they were a decade late), so let's not start givng out free passes to guys who found a loophole.

[clintl]

Even if it turns out that Ankiel is telling the truth about why he was taking HGH? He doesn't appear to be trying to hide anything, and says he will cooperate with baseball's investigation.

[Maple Leafs]

Even if it turns out that Ankiel is telling the truth about why he was taking HGH? He doesn't appear to be trying to hide anything, and says he will cooperate with baseball's investigation.
HGH isn't aspirin. I don't doubt that he had a doctor somewhere who would sign his prescription -- what athelete named in this recent scandal hasn't had a doctor's signature to point to? That doesn't mean he was using it because a legitimate doctor felt it was the best treatment available for his injury.

[st.cronin]

The story I read about this said, or suggested, that these were ILLEGAL shipments of HGH. Is that not true?

[clintl]

I have not seen any reports that specifically said the shipments to Ankiel were illegal. Walt Jocketty is backing Ankiel up and says the shipments were legal, and the timing of the shipments coincides with Ankiel's rehabilitation from Tommy John surgery, so I'm very comfortable giving Ankiel the benefit of the doubt for now.

[Eaglesfan27]

Except, HGH is not a generally accepted medication to come back from Tommy John or any other surgery. It is not the standard of care in medicine.

[Maple Leafs]

From ESPN.com coverage:

The New York Daily News reported Friday that Ankiel received a 12-month supply of human growth hormone in 2004 from a Florida pharmacy that was part of a national illegal prescription drug-distribution operation, citing records its reporters saw.

Wow, bad luck for him that he happened to choose to receive his perfectly legal and innocent HGH shipments from a "national illegal prescription drug-distribution operation".

From the original Daily News story:
According to physician Gary Wadler, a committee member with the World Anti-Doping Agency and an associate professor of medicine at NYU, there is a limited number of reasons a healthy man in his 20s would have a medical need for HGH.

Unlike most drugs, federal law bans the use of HGH for off-label purposes: Physicians can distribute growth hormone only in connection with either treatment of a disease or another medical condition authorized by the Secretary of Health and Human Services. "You need a bona fide doctor-patient relationship and a bona fide disease to distribute growth hormone," Wadler said.

The list of possible uses of HGH by a healthy man in his mid-20s is "extremely narrow," Wadler added.

[GoDukes]

I agree. When McGwire took Andro, it was perfectly legal, and his record is not tainted at all.

McGwire likely took much more than Andro. There would have been ZERO reason for him to have went before congress and saying "no comment" 200x if that were the situation. It was KNOWN he was using andro during the chase. If that's all it was he was using, he'd have said it. While he'd be looked down on by some people, he wouldn't be caught up in the steroids/HGH debate.



Hehe. My post was completely sarcastic in nature. Referring to those that are saying, "He stopped when it became illegal!"

[kenparker23]

Except, HGH is not a generally accepted medication to come back from Tommy John or any other surgery. It is not the standard of care in medicine.

This is correct. It was also not, to my knowledge, given by the physician who did the procedure. My partner did his fellowship at Washington University with George Paletta (the Cardinals team doc). I can tell you first hand that HGH is NOT given for rehab of an ulnar collateral reconstruction.