Unlikely Rookie of the Year - The Eddie England Saga [Archive]

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Senator

08-15-2007, 04:53 PM

My scout is rated "good" for DL, but I sure missed this guy.

http://www.brandonsanders.com/ROY.jpg

http://www.brandonsanders.com/ROY2.jpg

http://www.brandonsanders.com/ROY3.jpg

johnnyshaka

08-15-2007, 05:16 PM

Yikes...surprised he even started for an AI team. I'm assuming you are not running the Jags...correct?

Sgran

08-15-2007, 05:30 PM

be sure to post his ratings next year

Senator

08-15-2007, 05:53 PM

No, I am the Cowboys.

MizzouRah

08-15-2007, 08:54 PM

That's freaking cool!

TurfToe

08-15-2007, 09:01 PM

Product of the system? lol

M GO BLUE!!!

08-15-2007, 11:46 PM

What is their LDE like? I bet he's good & teams blocked him with everybody!

Fonzie

08-16-2007, 12:00 AM

This is very, very odd. How terrible does your roster have to be to have a 10/14 rated starting DE?

Senator, do you by any chance know what his combine scores were like?

Icy

08-16-2007, 05:42 AM

This is really weird, please update us with his career to see if he ends being a stud.

gstelmack

08-16-2007, 09:22 AM

I'm sorry, but it's very disheartening to see a 10/14 guy get 12.5 sacks.

Ajaxab

08-16-2007, 09:47 AM

I'm sorry, but it's very disheartening to see a 10/14 guy get 12.5 sacks.

I have to agree with this. How can we evaluate talent if a 10/14 guy performs like this? Sure, it might be a very isolated case, but the mismatch between ratings and performance (never mind throwing in all the other variables that go into performance) in 2k7 makes it very difficult to get a sense of who will actually improve your team. I don't think I would be alone in not even taking a second look at a guy like this coming out of the draft, never mind starting him.

johnnyshaka

08-16-2007, 10:09 AM

I'm sorry, but it's very disheartening to see a 10/14 guy get 12.5 sacks.

Agreed.

MizzouRah

08-16-2007, 11:27 AM

johnnyshaka

08-16-2007, 11:41 AM

I think it's great. This is the first time I've ever seen anything like this and it just looks to me like his ratings haven't gone up yet (which I expect a HUGE spike) and he's probably a diamond in the rough that didn't hack it in college, but for some reason he can play at this level.

If his combines support this kind of performance...fine, I agree with you as at least we'd have some way to know to take a flier on this guy but otherwise, I don't know how this could be construed as "great" in any way. Again, without knowing what his combine looked like, how would anybody know to give this guy a shot to start for an entire season except the AI who obviously has more information to work with than we do?

stevew

08-16-2007, 02:45 PM

Do you happen to know what the rest of the guys on this team's line looked like? Sometimes I'll get a rare 11 or 12 sack season out of a shitty WLB.

Ajaxab

08-16-2007, 03:47 PM

he's probably a diamond in the rough that didn't hack it in college, but for some reason he can play at this level.

The difficulty here is the 'for some reason.' How would we or could we figure out what this reason might be? I agree in thinking it would be great if we could have some semblance of a clue as to what this reason might be. Perhaps Senator can shed a bit of light on this, but until we have some notion of how to discern the 'for some reason', I'm disheartened by seeing this.

wade moore

08-16-2007, 07:04 PM

I'm actually somewhat happy to see this. Given that ratings/creepers are what they are - it makes me happy to see the AI picking up on these guys. I think a seperate discussion can (and has been) had about whether creepers work in the best way, but the fact that they are what they are I love seeing the AI catch onto one.

stevew

08-16-2007, 08:46 PM

The difficulty here is the 'for some reason.' How would we or could we figure out what this reason might be? I agree in thinking it would be great if we could have some semblance of a clue as to what this reason might be. Perhaps Senator can shed a bit of light on this, but until we have some notion of how to discern the 'for some reason', I'm disheartened by seeing this.

Willie Parker had more yards in each of the last 2 NFL seasons than he did for 4 years at North Carolina. It's rare, but it happens.

Theoretically he would be the 10/14 type coming out of college, although I suppose he would have had a rediculous 40 time.

MizzouRah

08-16-2007, 09:40 PM

The difficulty here is the 'for some reason.' How would we or could we figure out what this reason might be? I agree in thinking it would be great if we could have some semblance of a clue as to what this reason might be. Perhaps Senator can shed a bit of light on this, but until we have some notion of how to discern the 'for some reason', I'm disheartened by seeing this.

I equate this with, "what could have been". The CPU AI took a chance on a rookie FA, made him a starter, and he decided he wanted to play in the NFL. I'd like to hear Jim's evaluation, but I'm led to believe he intended it.

Senator

08-16-2007, 10:12 PM

Wow, this thread blossomed more than I thought it might.

I did not save any combine numbers or anything like that.

Let's take a look at some of the screenshots. Maybe they shed some light. The line sucked, but the LDE was not a stud. He had the same amount of sacks. The LB's were servicable. If you want more info, I will oblige, this seems to be just one of those odd things. When we are ready to move, I will track his career.

http://www.brandonsanders.com/ROY4.jpg

http://www.brandonsanders.com/ROY5.jpg

http://www.brandonsanders.com/ROY6.jpg

http://www.brandonsanders.com/ROY7.jpg

gstelmack

08-17-2007, 08:22 AM

My concern was not that a 10/14 guy coming out of the draft turned in 12.5 sacks.

My concern is that AFTER turning in 12.5 sacks, he's STILL considered 10/14.

Does anybody think Willie Parker was still rated a 10/14 after that playoff run?

In the spirit of other recent posts, I give you:

Coach: "You sure he sucks?"
Scout: "Yes coach, I've seen the tape, and he sucks."
Coach: "How'd he get 12.5 sacks?"
Scout: "Don't know, but he really, really sucks. He should never have been in the league."
Coach: "BUT HE GOT 12.5 SACKS!"
Scout: "Yeah, but his technique is lousy, he can't read the QB worth a darn, he tires quickly, and forget stopping the run."
Coach: "You're fired!"

Ben E Lou

08-17-2007, 08:29 AM

When we are ready to move, I will track his career.

If you don't sign him to your team and play him until he creeps up into at least the high 20s current, it's very unlikely that he'll have a career to track. Once Jax can afford it, they'll sign a higher-rated DE. In all likelihood, we'll never hear from England on an AI team again. *shurg*

nilodor

08-17-2007, 10:49 AM

Icy

08-17-2007, 11:12 AM

If you don't sign him to your team and play him until he creeps up into at least the high 20s current, it's very unlikely that he'll have a career to track. Once Jax can afford it, they'll sign a higher-rated DE. In all likelihood, we'll never hear from England on an AI team again. *shurg*

That is more anti-realism, as not any NFL team would replace a 12 sacks DE without a good reason.

As some of you said, maybe the visible ratings should be masked by the stats in some way, so a guy who get's 12 sacks should look like a great player to every scout. Maybe also tie ratings development to stats like OOTP does, so if a player has a monster season like that, it means that he learned well how to play the game, so his rattings should boost for the next season.

Synovia

08-17-2007, 12:08 PM

That is more anti-realism, as not any NFL team would replace a 12 sacks DE without a good reason.

I dunno, John Kitna keeps putting up 4500 yard seasons, and nobody thinks hes all that great. <br><br>Sometimes guys fit the system well. Sometimes mediocre players have great years......<br><br>If he starts again, and puts up another 12+ sack, 20 hurry season, and his ratings dont drastically change, then I agree with you.

Icy

08-17-2007, 12:23 PM

I dunno, John Kitna keeps putting up 4500 yard seasons, and nobody thinks hes all that great.

Sometimes guys fit the system well. Sometimes mediocre players have great years......

If he starts again, and puts up another 12+ sack, 20 hurry season, and his ratings dont drastically change, then I agree with you.

But Kitna keeps playing in the NFL and has for a while, while this DE won't as soon as his team can afford a replacement as Skydog said. Even if he is not a great player, he is not a garbage looking one (like the guy in this thread). I would say Kitna is more of a 40's or 50's rating guy in FOF ratings, not a 10's one.

Agree with you about being only a season of stats, i would like to get updates about his career.

Synovia

08-17-2007, 12:36 PM

But Kitna keeps playing in the NFL and has for a while, while this DE won't as soon as his team can afford a replacement as Skydog said. Even if he is not a great player, he is not a garbage looking one (like the guy in this thread). I would say Kitna is more of a 40's or 50's rating guy in FOF ratings, not a 10's one.

Agree with you about being only a season of stats, i would like to get updates about his career.

What are you talking about.... guys like Kitna, Joey Harrington, etc, keep getting replaced as soon as the team finds a better player. <br><br>Theres no way in heck that Kitna is a 50.

Senator

08-17-2007, 12:49 PM

Update on the Eddie "The Eagle" England.

Tough draft day for Eddie, as Jacksonville goes shopping for a replacement.

http://www.brandonsanders.com/ROY8.jpg

Senator

08-17-2007, 12:52 PM

No room for Eddie on the Jaguars roster.

http://www.brandonsanders.com/ROY9.jpg

That's ok, Eddie, we see something in you.

http://www.brandonsanders.com/ROY10.jpg

Senator

08-17-2007, 12:54 PM

My scout demands we make the call, and we play a game of catch and release with Eddie until he tires of it.

2019 becomes a lost season for the rookie of the year.

http://www.brandonsanders.com/ROY11.jpg

Ben E Lou

08-17-2007, 12:54 PM

No room for Eddie on the Jaguars roster.Shocker. *shurg*

Senator

08-17-2007, 12:57 PM

I fire my scout, I think he is an idiot and I take over the roster.

I sign Eddie in free agency of 2020, promising him a chance to make a contribution.

http://www.brandonsanders.com/ROY12.jpg

As the season ends, he plays mop up duty in 2020.

http://www.brandonsanders.com/ROY15.jpg

http://www.brandonsanders.com/ROY14.jpg

Icy

08-17-2007, 01:10 PM

What are you talking about.... guys like Kitna, Joey Harrington, etc, keep getting replaced as soon as the team finds a better player.

Theres no way in heck that Kitna is a 50.

But Kitna has been playing for 11 season, or as starter or as backup, while this DE won't get playing time or get signed by any team anymore, that is the big difference. Real GM's keep those role players around as they showed that they can produce, while AI gm's in FOF seems to only have in account the players ratings and no stats, at least looking at this example.

My point and i can't see how you keep discussing it, is that there is no way in real life that a 12 sacks DE would be without team for a full season after his 12 sacks one. If not kept by his team, he would have been signed by any other one, or as starter or at least as backup. Also after his monster 12 sacks season, not any scout would say that he is complete garbage, if not praised, he would at least be look as an average team player (and a 10 rated one is crap in FOF, not even under average).

Ben E Lou

08-17-2007, 01:14 PM

Example of what I mean...

http://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/tanner.jpg

The player above was drafted 1(4) by an AI team, then cut the following year. In a "normal" sim, he never played a single down before retiring. I then reloaded, picked him up, signed him to my team, stuck him in the lineup long enough to develop him to the point where AI teams would sign him, then cut him, and he was good enough to win an MVP Award with an AI team. His max scouted ratings were 52/52, but I believe he was quite a bit better than that. The game could use difficulty levels something like this...

<table x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 277pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="369"> <tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="border: medium none ; height: 12.75pt; width: 48pt; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; text-align: center; color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" height="17" width="64"> LEVEL</td> <td style="border: medium none ; width: 69pt; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; text-align: center; color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" width="92"> AI Scout Error</td> <td style="border: medium none ; width: 160pt; font-weight: 700; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; text-align: center; color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" width="213"> Finances</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="border: medium none ; height: 12.75pt; text-align: center; color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" height="17"> Hardest</td> <td x:num="-1" style="border: medium none ; text-align: center; color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;"> -100%</td> <td style="border: medium none ; text-align: center; color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;"> 20% Harder than current Wall Street</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="border: medium none ; height: 12.75pt; text-align: center; color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" height="17"> Harder</td> <td x:num="-0.75" style="border: medium none ; text-align: center; color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;"> -75%</td> <td style="border: medium none ; text-align: center; color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;"> 10% Harder than current Wall Street</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="border: medium none ; height: 12.75pt; text-align: center; color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" height="17"> Hard</td> <td x:num="-0.5" style="border: medium none ; text-align: center; color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;"> -50%</td> <td style="border: medium none ; text-align: center; color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;"> Current Wall Street
</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="border: medium none ; height: 12.75pt; text-align: center; color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" height="17"> Normal</td> <td x:num="-0.25" style="border: medium none ; text-align: center; color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;"> -25%</td> <td style="border: medium none ; text-align: center; color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;"> Current Medium Level</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="border: medium none ; height: 12.75pt; text-align: center; color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" height="17"> Easy</td> <td style="border: medium none ; text-align: center; color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;">Same as human.
</td> <td x:str="Current Easy " style="border: medium none ; text-align: center; color: windowtext; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: 400; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Arial; vertical-align: bottom; white-space: nowrap; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;"> Current Easy </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

At the hardest level, have the AI teams see all players exactly as they are, and make finances a little more difficult, and we'd have a *much* more fun and challenging SP experience.

(http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=59062)

MizzouRah

08-17-2007, 01:43 PM

Poor Eddie and kind of taints my love for the FOF engine. The game AI should have updated his ratings and gave him another year as a starter, I would have.

I would love to hear Jim's insight on this thread.

Synovia

08-17-2007, 02:05 PM

My point and i can't see how you keep discussing it, is that there is no way in real life that a 12 sacks DE would be without team for a full season after his 12 sacks one. If not kept by his team, he would have been signed by any other one, or as starter or at least as backup. Also after his monster 12 sacks season, not any scout would say that he is complete garbage, if not praised, he would at least be look as an average team player (and a 10 rated one is crap in FOF, not even under average).
My point is that its clearly a fluke, and flukes happen. Him putting up 1 sack the following year is a perfect example of that. <br><br> I've had CBs put up 10 sack seasons. You play enough seasons and wierd stuff happens. You flip a coin enough times and eventually its gonna come up tails 12 times in a row.<br><br>I think what SkyDog is pointing out is a completely different issue, and a much more pressing one.

Ben E Lou

08-17-2007, 02:09 PM

Him putting up 1 sack the following year is a perfect example of that.

Right. If he was any good, he would have put up 12 sacks in the 73 plays he participated in. Duh. *shurg*

MizzouRah

08-17-2007, 02:10 PM

Right. If he was any good, he would have put up 12 sacks in the 73 plays he participated in. Duh. *shurg*

beat me to it... :D

johnnyshaka

08-17-2007, 02:11 PM

Hold on...he didn't even start a single game and only saw action during 38 passing plays...the equivalent of about one game...so that would be an average of one sack per game if he started every week...I'd say that's pretty damn good.

EDIT: Beat me as well...DAMNIT!!

Icy

08-17-2007, 02:43 PM

Senator, if you have the game saved before the season started, can you please set him as starter and sim again to see his stats when playing most of the time?

ddrrbb

08-17-2007, 02:44 PM

I like how Jacksonville drafted a DE with 0 pass rush technique in the middle of the 2nd round to replace Eddie England. He will probably get a dozen sacks too, and still have 0 pass rush technique.

Senator

08-17-2007, 04:18 PM

Ben E Lou

08-17-2007, 04:20 PM

Sgran

08-17-2007, 04:29 PM

Think about Ogunleye. After going undrafted he spends a year on the Dolfins' taxi squad. Then he puts up 9.5 sacks. Then 15. Two productive years and that's enough for the Bears to throw 33 million at him.

Antmeister

08-17-2007, 04:29 PM

My interest has now perked.

I decided to start Eddie for the 2022 season.

How about this line from game 5.

Game MVP: Eddie England, Dallas Cowboys
DE Eddie England 6tackles 1 assist 3.5 sacks 25RP 37 PP

I know it was mentioned before, but I love that this is happening. The only problem we have is that the scouted rating doesn't change over the course of his success at the position. And I don't have a problem with how large or small the incremental gain is. It would just be neat to see how the scout now views talent based on success on the field and that is not currently happening.

Antmeister

08-17-2007, 04:36 PM

So to rephrase that, I am happy that you can find a hidden gem like this, but I am disappointed with how he is scouted in the future, since it is pointed out that AI teams makes decisions based off those scouted ratings and not the stats.

Senator

08-17-2007, 04:43 PM

I have never been this baflled in FOF before. I started him and let's see how he did.

http://www.brandonsanders.com/ROY1001.jpg

http://www.brandonsanders.com/ROY1002.jpg

Subby

08-17-2007, 05:18 PM

I think folks' first mistake is trying to frame this in professional football terms. This is an FOF peculiarity all the way...

SkyDog showed that plenty of creepers play way above their ratings in one of his recent studies. Add that to how FOF assigns stats after a play is over (ie. group ratings are aggregated, outcomes are determined, stats are doled out) and it isn't a huge surprise. I would bet a billion GindinBucks that this guy was a combine stud.

RedKingGold

08-17-2007, 05:20 PM

I think folks' first mistake is trying to frame just about anything in FOF within professional football terms. This is an FOF peculiarity all the way...

Fixed

johnnyshaka

08-17-2007, 05:39 PM

SkyDog showed that plenty of creepers play way above their ratings in one of his recent studies.

Yes he did. But if this guy is a creeper, when is he going to start creeping? He's averaging nearly a sack a start and he's only 14/14...that's just silly.

About Ogunleye...yeah, he slid under the radar for a couple of years but he eventually got paid...as he should. Eddie England was instead cut and resigned to the league minimum after winning DROY. Again, that's just silly.

Senator

08-17-2007, 05:44 PM

MizzouRah

08-17-2007, 05:47 PM

Yeah, now the more I see of this guy, the more it exposes the game engine or there is a bug somewhere. No way in hell ANY NFL team would pass on this guy and let him rot in FA - 2 full playing seasons and he has 26 sacks.

I didn't think FOF relied SOLEY on ratings?

MizzouRah

08-17-2007, 05:49 PM

Then I shouldn't go forward then, if this is trodden ground. People were asking me to do it, so I did.

No, please do. I want to see this guy play more.

Senator

08-17-2007, 08:39 PM

2023 Eddie was hurt, and when he played it was around 30%. I think he might just be done.

http://www.brandonsanders.com/2023.jpg

Senator

08-17-2007, 08:40 PM

2024 - The year Eddie shocked the football world!

http://www.brandonsanders.com/2024.jpg

QuikSand

08-17-2007, 08:46 PM

2023 wasn't really that bad a season - a 5.8 PR% isn't too bad, not too far below his usual -- and even better than the 5.5% in the 18-sack followup. (I don't have much insight into what turns hurries/blocks into sacks, but they both have good effects for the defense)

gstelmack

08-17-2007, 08:56 PM

I know it was mentioned before, but I love that this is happening. The only problem we have is that the scouted rating doesn't change over the course of his success at the position. And I don't have a problem with how large or small the incremental gain is. It would just be neat to see how the scout now views talent based on success on the field and that is not currently happening.

But that's CRUCIAL to gameplay. Since the main way we can sort FAs is based on scouted rating, you have to really dig to find a player like this. And I shouldn't have to dig to find a guy who got 12.5 sacks last season and got cut. Sure, I can look at stats, but do I really want to spend the time to step through half a dozen stat pages sorting on several columns and clicking on player cards to find guys at the top of leader boards but at the bottom of the scouted ratings?

I guess it depends on how you play. Those of you with hours to devote to the game each night may find guys like this fascinating, but those of us who do not have that kind of time would like some help from the game on this.

gstelmack

08-17-2007, 08:58 PM

What's his rating now that he's played more years? Is he still a 14, or did he finally start creeping.

Senator

08-17-2007, 09:15 PM

http://www.brandonsanders.com/2024.1.jpg

MizzouRah

08-17-2007, 09:32 PM

2024 - The year Eddie shocked the football world!

http://www.brandonsanders.com/2024.jpg

This guy could be making so much more money. :D

I still find this quite facinating.

Izulde

08-17-2007, 10:44 PM

http://www.brandonsanders.com/2024.1.jpg

Scrub to Stud = Awesome.

Scrub forever viewes as Scub = Teh suk.

Izulde

08-17-2007, 10:44 PM

dola,

do keep updating him. I'm enjoying his career :)

ddrrbb

08-17-2007, 11:07 PM

QuikSand

08-17-2007, 11:38 PM

But that's CRUCIAL to gameplay. Since the main way we can sort FAs is based on scouted rating, you have to really dig to find a player like this. And I shouldn't have to dig to find a guy who got 12.5 sacks last season and got cut. Sure, I can look at stats, but do I really want to spend the time to step through half a dozen stat pages sorting on several columns and clicking on player cards to find guys at the top of leader boards but at the bottom of the scouted ratings?

I guess it depends on how you play. Those of you with hours to devote to the game each night may find guys like this fascinating, but those of us who do not have that kind of time would like some help from the game on this.

What's even worse is that it's basically a total fluke that this guy got a shot to play at all, on any AI team. Rookies rated 14/14 don't usually even get that chance. So, no matter how "truly good" this guy is hidden underneath whatever system is in place, you won't see it, and neither will the AI teams... and in most cases, the guy not only won't have any ratings to make him look attractive, but by virtue of that he won't get any chance to play at all, meaning he'll have no stats for you to use to discover him. Unless you catch him in or after the draft and make room for him on your own team, he's a goner.

Antmeister

08-18-2007, 02:02 AM

But that's CRUCIAL to gameplay. Since the main way we can sort FAs is based on scouted rating, you have to really dig to find a player like this. And I shouldn't have to dig to find a guy who got 12.5 sacks last season and got cut. Sure, I can look at stats, but do I really want to spend the time to step through half a dozen stat pages sorting on several columns and clicking on player cards to find guys at the top of leader boards but at the bottom of the scouted ratings?

I guess it depends on how you play. Those of you with hours to devote to the game each night may find guys like this fascinating, but those of us who do not have that kind of time would like some help from the game on this.

I knew what I wrote was going to be interpreted incorrectly and that is why I followed it up with this post immediately after the one you quoted:

So to rephrase that, I am happy that you can find a hidden gem like this, but I am disappointed with how he is scouted in the future, since it is pointed out that AI teams makes decisions based off those scouted ratings and not the stats.

I know it is crucial to the game. That is why I am disappointed that the Scouted Ratings aren't being updated.

timmynausea

08-18-2007, 07:40 AM

Still, the heart of this "controversy" is that all the scouts still see him as a CFL or arena league player or grocery bagger even though he is one of the most dominant DEs in the league. Lame!

If you look beyond the sacks, it's kind of interesting. With that pass rush percentage, he's likely not one of the most dominant DEs in the league. In my leagues I am typically seeing about 15 guys a year crack the 7.0 PRPct mark, and he's never quite made it to that level. A handful or less of guys will top 10 PRPct in a season, and I would say those guys are truly dominant.

One of the weirder things about this guy is that he gets so many sacks without very many blocks or hurries. Plus, just 3 QB knockdowns for his career? That means it's been very very rare that he has his man beat, but the QB still makes a play. Some of the dominant pass rushers will have 50 of those kinds of plays in a single season.

This isn't to take away from the guy's accomplishments. For a 14/14 guy these are amazing numbers. Something just seems weird about the way his stats breakdown.

MizzouRah

08-18-2007, 09:36 AM

If nothing else, his pass rush technique should be sky high.

Senator

08-18-2007, 10:21 AM

I consider this the unintentioned "fog of war" part of the game.

RedKingGold

08-18-2007, 11:56 AM

If nothing else, his pass rush technique should be sky high.

Oh, but it is. We just don't see it (and neither does the AI)

MizzouRah

08-18-2007, 12:47 PM

Oh, but it is. We just don't see it (and neither does the AI)

I guess you have a point. :)

nilodor

08-18-2007, 02:01 PM

RedKingGold

08-18-2007, 02:25 PM

Senator

08-18-2007, 03:15 PM

He is an 11/11 now.
2 more seasons.

http://www.brandonsanders.com/2026.jpg

MizzouRah

08-18-2007, 04:06 PM

I love it.

QuikSand

08-18-2007, 04:40 PM

I consider this the unintentioned "fog of war" part of the game.

But isn't that "fog" supposed to clear up at some point? Like when you make an investment into scouting, or actually have the player on your team a while?

Senator

08-18-2007, 06:03 PM

But isn't that "fog" supposed to clear up at some point? Like when you make an investment into scouting, or actually have the player on your team a while?

I guess I consider at this point, I have invested multiple seasons with him as a starter, and now I feel like I have a pretty good indication of what to expect. This, while not clearing up the fog, disperses it a little.

Senator

08-18-2007, 07:19 PM

Three more years, rated a 4/4 but still putting up numbers. Even got himself a ring.

http://www.brandonsanders.com/2029.1.jpg

http://www.brandonsanders.com/2029.2.jpg

johnnyshaka

08-18-2007, 07:33 PM

Finally getting paid...'bout time!!!

gstelmack

08-18-2007, 07:38 PM

11.5 sacks as a 4?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

nilodor

08-18-2007, 07:57 PM

Insane, especially the number of plays he gets with a 4 for endurance. I wonder what his real ratings are? Might be the worst rated player ever to make it to the hall.

stevew

08-18-2007, 08:58 PM

this is just a quick thought. Isit it possible that the fact that he is `red` experienced a factor here? Meaning that he knows the position well and the experience makes him more of a gamer than normal? We can guestimate that he's maybe a 40/40 type who's lucky...aka the wiley vet. The other possibility is that his ratings are so low that the engine can't deal with them. I ran a test season with all 1/5 linemen once, and the guys all gave up 10-15 sacks, but not the 20-40 that you would think they would have.

WelshWizard

08-18-2007, 09:34 PM

I have no idea what to make of this. This guy has very impressive sack numbers over his career yet he is still only 4th in sacks and hurries on the Dallas team. Would be interesting to see the ratings and stats of the other defensive linemen. I feel this guy is feeding off a stud or two that are being double teamed. Just a thought.

MizzouRah

08-18-2007, 09:43 PM

gstelmack

08-18-2007, 09:43 PM

Isit it possible that the fact that he is `red` experienced a factor here?

He was not red when he put up 12.5 as a rookie.

Ajaxab

08-18-2007, 10:09 PM

Fog of war? Seems to be flatout darkness to me.

I do suppose this is more fodder for the 'bars don't mean anything' crowd.

Subby

08-18-2007, 10:16 PM

Probably worth pointing out that his pass rush numbers are not really hall-worthy. In fact, I would actually be pretty bummed if my best DE was putting up PR% in the fives.

timmynausea

08-18-2007, 11:00 PM

Probably worth pointing out that his pass rush numbers are not really hall-worthy. In fact, I would actually be pretty bummed if my best DE was putting up PR% in the fives.

That's what I was saying.

Senator

08-18-2007, 11:47 PM

From 2030 to 2037 he as rated 0/0.

Here are the final shots of this strange player - with Hall of Fame screen for good measure.

England had this last comment at the Hall of Fame ceremony, "What I've done is going to be puzzled over and studied and followed... forever."

http://www.brandonsanders.com/2037.1.jpg

http://www.brandonsanders.com/2037.2.jpg

http://www.brandonsanders.com/HOF.jpg

Vinatieri for Prez

08-19-2007, 12:25 AM

Looks like Legend of Game, not Hall of Fame, right?

3ric

08-19-2007, 01:55 AM

Look in the left column, Vin.

Vinatieri for Prez

08-19-2007, 02:47 AM

Ah great. I missed that. I was looking over at the honors box.

Richard Weed

08-19-2007, 07:26 AM

Man, and Jim's Face the Board is over! Now we'll never know what happened!

bmerryman

08-19-2007, 07:41 AM

If you look beyond the sacks, it's kind of interesting. With that pass rush percentage, he's likely not one of the most dominant DEs in the league. In my leagues I am typically seeing about 15 guys a year crack the 7.0 PRPct mark, and he's never quite made it to that level. A handful or less of guys will top 10 PRPct in a season, and I would say those guys are truly dominant.

One of the weirder things about this guy is that he gets so many sacks without very many blocks or hurries. Plus, just 3 QB knockdowns for his career? That means it's been very very rare that he has his man beat, but the QB still makes a play. Some of the dominant pass rushers will have 50 of those kinds of plays in a single season.

This isn't to take away from the guy's accomplishments. For a 14/14 guy these are amazing numbers. Something just seems weird about the way his stats breakdown.

This assessment is right on the money. This guy is below average for defensive ends. Here's where his career numbers fall compared to the DE universe:

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 264pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=352 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 113pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 5522" width=151><COL style="WIDTH: 67pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 3254" width=89><COL style="WIDTH: 84pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 4096" width=112><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 113pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=151 height=17>Enter:</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; WIDTH: 67pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=89> </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 84pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=112> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Position</TD><TD class=xl40 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">DE</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Games</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>143</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Tackles</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>280</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Assists</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>95</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Sacks</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>93</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Blocked</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>33</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Hurries</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>147</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>QBKds</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>5</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Running Plays</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>3162</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Passing Plays</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>5011</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17> </TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD><TD class=xl36 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> Weights</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl32 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Tackle Rating:</TD><TD class=xl38 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="18.7">19</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>4</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl32 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Pass Rush Rating:</TD><TD class=xl38 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="48.5">49</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>5</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl32 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Knockdown Rating:</TD><TD class=xl38 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="23.2">23</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>2</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl33 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Number of Plays Rating:</TD><TD class=xl39 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="99.7">100</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>2</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 19.5pt" height=26><TD class=xl35 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 19.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=26 x:str="'No Play Rating Average:">No Play Rating Average:</TD><TD class=xl37 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="33.06363636363637">33</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Basically he's an average pass rusher and that's only because of his sack #s. His run defense sucks. I'd say his ratings aren't that far off.

Subby

08-19-2007, 09:12 AM

Granted I haven't played much SP, but I don't think I have ever seen a guy play 20 seasons before.

Thanks for doing this, Senator!

Subby

08-19-2007, 09:16 AM

The follow up experiment would be to get another low rating scrub and plug him in at DE and see how he does over a career. My guess is that these results are more a function of how stats are assigned after the play than they are of hidden ratings and creepers (neither of which really applied to England - contrary to my initial opinion.)

Ben E Lou

08-19-2007, 09:18 AM

Subby, either Senator's using an endurance exploit (which I doubt), or that guy's endurance rating is just plain bogus.

Subby

08-19-2007, 09:25 AM

I thought it was interesting that his rating was 0/0 despite still having red bars in three categories...does that mean that the overall rating ignores some categories?

MizzouRah

08-19-2007, 09:41 AM

Great story.

nilodor

08-19-2007, 10:20 AM

This assessment is right on the money. This guy is below average for defensive ends. Here's where his career numbers fall compared to the DE universe:

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 264pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=352 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 113pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 5522" width=151><COL style="WIDTH: 67pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 3254" width=89><COL style="WIDTH: 84pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 4096" width=112><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 113pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=151 height=17>Enter:</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; WIDTH: 67pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=89> </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 84pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=112> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Position</TD><TD class=xl40 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">DE</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Games</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>143</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Tackles</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>280</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Assists</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>95</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Sacks</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>93</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Blocked</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>33</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Hurries</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>147</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>QBKds</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>5</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Running Plays</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>3162</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Passing Plays</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>5011</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17> </TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> </TD><TD class=xl36 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"> Weights</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl32 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Tackle Rating:</TD><TD class=xl38 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="18.7">19</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>4</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl32 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Pass Rush Rating:</TD><TD class=xl38 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="48.5">49</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>5</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl32 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Knockdown Rating:</TD><TD class=xl38 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="23.2">23</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>2</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl33 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=17>Number of Plays Rating:</TD><TD class=xl39 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="99.7">100</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num>2</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 19.5pt" height=26><TD class=xl35 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 19.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=26 x:str="'No Play Rating Average:">No Play Rating Average:</TD><TD class=xl37 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1.5pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" align=right x:num="33.06363636363637">33</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-TOP: #e0dfe3; BORDER-LEFT: #e0dfe3; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0dfe3; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Basically he's an average pass rusher and that's only because of his sack #s. His run defense sucks. I'd say his ratings aren't that far off.

That's a nice assessment there. Did you make it yourself or is it part of one of the utilities floating around?

bmerryman

08-19-2007, 11:50 AM

That's a nice assessment there. Did you make it yourself or is it part of one of the utilities floating around?

Made it myself. It's based on approx. 350 individual DEs. The number of plays rating shouldn't be looked at unless you know the team context (a bad defense is generally on the field a lot more than a good defense).

I would love to have Eddie England as an opponent. Let's see 6.0 yards per carry around his corner. He sacks my QB once but since he's never in the QB's face, my QB has all day to pick apart the secondary on the 30 other pass plays.

He's like the 500 Home Run hitter that gets into the HOF based on HRs alone. Nevermind the awful fielding percentage, 3000 strike outs, and lifetime batting average of .210

johnnyshaka

08-19-2007, 12:25 PM

Judging by the number of playoff games we can see...I'd say he played for a very good team. Safe to say that the defense didn't spend an abnormal amount of time on the field...I'd say it's probably the opposite.

Sure, he's no elite pass rusher and is terrible against the run but you have to take into account how cheap he was to have in the lineup compared to how much you'd have pay to replace him with a guy who had comparable stats and ratings to match. I'm sure he played to a 35/35 guy with high pass rush technique and high endurance and I'm sure you'd be paying at least 3 times what Eddie was being paid.

That's where the value lies in a guy like this.

Deattribution

08-19-2007, 01:56 PM

Wow, I've never had a DE play 20 seasons before. I'm lucky to get 12 years out of them.

QuikSand

08-19-2007, 02:18 PM

RedKingGold

08-19-2007, 02:24 PM

Setting aside the speculation (informed and otherwise) about Eddie's performance... I, too, find it odd to see him stay around so long. It's possible that Senator re-ran the retirement sequence to stretch his career -- but if he didn't do so, then what do we think might have happened here? 20 years is a really serious aberration.

One guess... maybe the decision to retire is somehow connected to something like "ratings decline" -- and since Eddie didn't have any ratings to speak of anyhow, he wasn't technically suffering any ratings decline either, and therefore didn't have that particular trigger active in whatever formula determines when a player retires.

Just a bit of specualtion, but wouldn't the fact that he started every single game for about 13-seasons have a big part to do why he stuck around? I remember some comments made around release time that a player may stick around a bit longer if remaining relatively healthy and starting the vast majority of a teams games. Other than a nagging elbow injury, there is no other significant injury to make of.

bmerryman

08-19-2007, 06:22 PM

MizzouRah

08-19-2007, 06:56 PM

When you hear people talking about DE's, they talk about one thing: SACKS.

For the money, ANY NFL team IRL would take this guy in a heartbeat.

bmerryman

08-19-2007, 07:35 PM

When you hear people talking about DE's, they talk about one thing: SACKS.

For the money, ANY NFL team IRL would take this guy in a heartbeat.

No. First, they talk about their ability to Rush the Passer which is not synonymous with SACKS. Second, they talk about their ability to defend the run.

RedKingGold

08-19-2007, 07:56 PM

No. First, they talk about their ability to Rush the Passer which is not synonymous with SACKS. Second, they talk about their ability to defend the run.

And, how many people do you know that are NFL scouts or player personnel?

bmerryman

08-19-2007, 08:17 PM

And, how many people do you know that are NFL scouts or player personnel?

Fairly telling you didn't ask Mizzourah the same question. Here's a real life example. Dwight Freeney had 5.5 sacks last year. Not even in the top 20.

Here's a quote "Colts quarterback Peyton Manning said. “In talking to some of the other coaches that I’ve had a chance to see this off-season or other off-seasons, most of them say that Dwight is like the only guy they game-plan for defensively. That’s the kind of guy you want on your defense, that guy the quarterback is having to think about every single play. If you think Manning's a liar then I have very little point but I think he probably has more crediblity than any of us on this board.

Rewatch the Pats/Colts conference final game where Freeney had 0 sacks. I think you'll see that rushing the passer means a lot more than sacks.

Richard Weed

08-19-2007, 08:33 PM

Fairly telling you didn't ask Mizzourah the same question. Here's a real life example. Dwight Freeney had 5.5 sacks last year. Not even in the top 20.

Here's a quote "Colts quarterback Peyton Manning said. “In talking to some of the other coaches that I’ve had a chance to see this off-season or other off-seasons, most of them say that Dwight is like the only guy they game-plan for defensively. That’s the kind of guy you want on your defense, that guy the quarterback is having to think about every single play. If you think Manning's a liar then I have very little point but I think he probably has more crediblity than any of us on this board.

Rewatch the Pats/Colts conference final game where Freeney had 0 sacks. I think you'll see that rushing the passer means a lot more than sacks.
Real-life vs. text sim game. There is no quantitative method to judge pass rushing other than sacks, hurries, knockdowns, and maybe passes deflected and interceptions. Even then, those statistics are misleading somewhat (see 5 sacks above). The problem with a text-simulation is that you have nothing but the stats to judge your players. You're the scout or person in charge of player personnel. Obviously the scout told Senator that this guy teh sucked. What else was there to judge this guy on other than his stats?

bmerryman

08-19-2007, 08:36 PM

What else was there to judge this guy on other than his stats?

Exactly, and his stats, other than sacks, are below average.

RedKingGold

08-19-2007, 08:42 PM

Here's a real life example. Dwight Freeney had 5.5 sacks last year. Not even in the top 20.

Except for that you have no idea how the FOF simulation engine determines when sacks should happen and who gets assigned the sack. I'll give you a hint: It's probably much different than in real life.

MizzouRah

08-19-2007, 08:44 PM

No. First, they talk about their ability to Rush the Passer which is not synonymous with SACKS. Second, they talk about their ability to defend the run.

I will agree with this statement... although I still hear the work "sack" alot when a good DE is being talked about. :)

The thing for me is this.. if we could SEE this guy (ala FPS or Madden) in action we could definitely get a much better picture of this player and his abilities.

I just don't understand how anyone with those numbers has such a low scouted rating. I've looked over players with many sacks in my current franchise and when looking at those who had similar PRPct #'s, all of them have ratings 45 or higher. In fact, I've seen guys who have lower PRPct's, but a much higher overall rating (one guy is a 69).

MizzouRah

08-19-2007, 08:52 PM

Exactly, and his stats, other than sacks, are below average.

Ok, so 2024 comes to an end and when the NFL Network talks about great DE's, you would be crazy to think a guy with 18 sacks is not at the top of the list. He would HAVE to be considered a top pass rusher - at least the way I see it.

I mean, this guy is 21 sacks away from being #3 all time in the history of the NFL and he didn't start 2 years of his career!

bmerryman

08-19-2007, 09:28 PM

Except for that you have no idea how the FOF simulation engine determines when sacks should happen and who gets assigned the sack. I'll give you a hint: It's probably much different than in real life.

No. I don't know how the FOF simulation engine determines sacks. If you have the details then please enlighten me. I'm serious.

I'm not trying to say I know more than you or anyone else here. I'm simply making the big picture point that perhaps the guy who designed the game didn't conspire to indefinitely hide great players behind bogus ratings. My opinion, is that the scouted ratings are off the mark at most 25/25. I suspect that is very, very rare. Others may think that's more or less.

We're just talking about this one guy, Eddie England. I'm questioning the assumption, that seems to have been made, he's a good to great DE. Gimme a break and look at some other possible reasons to his low scout rating, like he doesn't have a lot of tackles, assists, hurries, blocks, and knockdowns.

C'mon, pick any league you have and look at a few years statistics. Get a good sample size. Compare Eddie England's pass rush% and tackle% to the field of DEs. He's probably average in the pass rush% and below average in the tackle%. His QB knockdowns are certainly near the bottom.

Just trying to follow what I see as logical evidence of good overall performance. Not trying to be offensive at all.

bmerryman

08-19-2007, 09:35 PM

Ok, so 2024 comes to an end and when the NFL Network talks about great DE's, you would be crazy to think a guy with 18 sacks is not at the top of the list. He would HAVE to be considered a top pass rusher - at least the way I see it.

I mean, this guy is 21 sacks away from being #3 all time in the history of the NFL and he didn't start 2 years of his career!

My point is that a guy that can't even come close to stopping the run, doesn't hurry, block or knockdown the QB, will never start more than 30 games in the NFL. Eddie's case is a simulation of an Owner that decided to play him despite the fact that he sucks in all areas except sacks. If there's any questionable design in the game it's that a guy that sacks the QB this much should probably have more hurries, and blocks (probably KDs too). But, the facts are that he didn't. He's awful in those areas. Watch solevision and you can see the importance of a hurry or block.

MizzouRah

08-19-2007, 09:46 PM

My point is that a guy that can't even come close to stopping the run, doesn't hurry, block or knockdown the QB, will never start more than 30 games in the NFL. Eddie's case is a simulation of an Owner that decided to play him despite the fact that he sucks in all areas except sacks. If there's any questionable design in the game it's that a guy that sacks the QB this much should probably have more hurries, and blocks (probably KDs too). But, the facts are that he didn't. He's awful in those areas. Watch solevision and you can see the importance of a hurry or block.

His first year was excellent, and that's when his ratings should have spiked. Again, you can't tell me after his rookie season he never should have started an NFL game again?

It's a great discussion, that's for sure.

Senator

08-19-2007, 10:16 PM

DanGarion

08-20-2007, 12:23 AM

Maybe he just sucked but because he was so intelligent he knew what to do to exploit the game and did it on the field day after day for 20 years.

JeffNights

08-20-2007, 12:25 AM

No. First, they talk about their ability to Rush the Passer which is not synonymous with SACKS. Second, they talk about their ability to defend the run.

Coach: "So, as my head scout whats the first things you would look at when getting us a Defensive End?"

Bmerryman: "Well, He has to be able to rush the passer, getting a sack is just secondary, and next he has to defend the run."

Coach: "You're Fired."

Vinatieri for Prez

08-20-2007, 12:35 AM

I am in Berryman's corner somewhat. I would not call this guy average, but I would not call him great either. I for one believe that in FOF anyways, hurries and blocks are very important when it comes to a DE.

Look at it this way. Both a hurry and a block are zero plays for the offense. Sometimes a knockdown is. A sack is a negative play. However, if you are lousy against the run and rack up 12-16 sacks a year (and virtually nothing else), that means you are affecting .75 to 1 pass plays per game, and probably close to zero run plays. Not very good in my opinion.

I would take a 7 sack, 9 block, 27 hurry, 20 knockdown, good run defense guy instead every time. That means my guy is affecting 4 pass plays per game, and several run plays per game.

There's a reason why the are other stats are treated equally with sacks in calculating a pass rush percentage. That's just my take.

So, if I was the GM in JeffNights example for FOF, I would fire the coach.

JeffNights

08-20-2007, 12:41 AM

I
So, if I was the GM in JeffNights example for FOF, I would fire the coach.

;)

Are you posing as Matt Millen in my example as well?

just kidding, i'm just here for the grins.

bmerryman

08-20-2007, 08:08 AM

Coach: "So, as my head scout whats the first things you would look at when getting us a Defensive End?"

Bmerryman: "Well, He has to be able to rush the passer, getting a sack is just secondary, and next he has to defend the run."

Coach: "You're Fired."

lol. Before you fire me, I want to clarify that I see sacking as a component of good pass rushing along with hurries, blocks, head slaps and leg whips.

QuikSand

08-20-2007, 09:33 AM

As we talk so much here about the effects in single player of hidden gem players (setting aside for the moment whether Eddie really is one) -- let's not forget the effects in multi-player as well.

Say there's a scrupulous owner who is playing against my team in the IHOF, the Chesapeake Chitterlings. And say he's trying to decide where to focus his offense for this game. He might easily start looking at my starting lineup, and see these two guys:

http://www.fof-ihof.com/upload/QuikSand/leftside_chits.jpg

...these are my starters at LDE and LDT, respectively.

One look at those two guys would suggest an easy strategy -- run right at them, they obviously are no good! Look at their scout ratings - especially Bauer in the middle - these players are liabilities, and should be exploited. That's what scouting is all about, right?

What kinda sucks is that the scouting doesn't tell the whole story, by any stretch. Hudson is a long-term creeper, whose ratings continue to grow -- if there are such things as "players better than their ratings bars" then he's one of them, no debate. And Bauer is a rookie, but he has the signs of being one of these guys as well -- he jumped up in training camp, and has been developing through this season, despite his modest current visible ratings.

So, how good are these guys, really? You'd have to do a good deal more than just look at their scouted ratings bars if you want a fair sense of that. You'd probably have to do digging into how they did at their respective combines, and what your scout has seen from them at various checkpoints through their careers. That -- to me -- goes well beyond what is reasonable to expect from a computer game owner. Especially when in any real-world implementation of this sort of thing, that's exactly what the scout would be incorporating into his advice.

I'm not trying to suggest that these two players are stars - I don't claim to know how good either guy is, especially Bauer. (I do know that this team's run defense has been quite good this year, with these two guys starting and playing in these positions nearly every game) I'm just saying that the deceptively static ratings for players who are definitely better than they appear to the scout has an effect not just in single player against dimwitted AI teams. It is likely to be fooling you, and me, and Coach Rex who might be doing your gameplanning, constantly. That's disturbing.

QuikSand

08-20-2007, 09:42 AM

And think about the possible areas where this could be a major issue, pretty much out of your control. What if I have two starting receivers, rated 60/60 and 50/50, but the 50/50 guy is one of these long-term creepers who is *really* better than his ratings? You set up your defense to stop my "top" receiver with double teams -- and your defense scouts the 60/60 guy at the guy to go after... and leaves the guy who is *truly* better relatively open, despite your honest efforts? All because every scout in the league turns in this same baloney scouting report of that former creeper receiver, continuing to say that he's just mediocre when he is setting records with his brilliant play.

Just another example of how this in-game permanent masking of ratings can have some perplexing results.

Ajaxab

08-20-2007, 09:45 AM

That's what pushes this problem into the realm of gamebreaker for me. If I cannot trust the only information I have to work from, I struggle to enjoy the game. Do I want to be able to draw a line of trust from point A to point B? Not necessarily. But I do want to be able to see the information I receive as credible. Unfortunately, the existing scouting system simply does not meet that standard making 2k7 extremely difficult for me to enjoy.

That not a single scout (human or AI) can recognize England as a player with some talent (35/35 or 70/70 doesn't matter) is disturbing to me. The fact is he doesn't play like a 14/14 guy, never mind a 0/0 guy. Yet, this is what these scouts are telling me. The game asks me to trust their judgment when it simply isn't credible.

cuervo72

08-20-2007, 09:54 AM

timmynausea

08-20-2007, 10:22 AM

This is a great discussion. If I can add anything more in details, let me know.

I just did not expect a guy with an 14 - 11 -4 -and then ZERO rating for 7 years to get even one sack, much less 10.5 his final season. I have played this game since 98 and never came across someone who did.

I ran a quick test season last night, signing the worst DE in the free agent pool (a 4/8 guy) and making him the starting LDE. He didn't have the kind of rookie season Eddie had, his pass rush % was in the 3.5 to 4.0 range. He did get 7 sacks, though.

Sgran

08-20-2007, 11:23 AM

I think that Jim should do away with the numerical ratings altogether. The categories are fine, but the players should keep the orange bars (with the same slowly dissolving green potential) throughout their career that indicate a general range of how they perform. These bars should definitely move throughout their career, and perhaps we could get a second, different colored bar when they're injured, which shows how the assistant coach assesses his ability during that particular week.

Firefly

06-14-2008, 10:06 AM

About the sacks to hurries to knockdowns ratio. Maybe there is a hidden rating that governs how good/clumsy a passrusher is at holding on to the QB? Doesn't correlate to real life, but it would explain why some players always seem to get to the QB late, and why some guys get few hurries and a lot of sacks, or the other way around consistently over their careers.

tarcone

06-14-2008, 11:14 AM

Firefly

06-14-2008, 08:49 PM

My concern was not that a 10/14 guy coming out of the draft turned in 12.5 sacks.

My concern is that AFTER turning in 12.5 sacks, he's STILL considered 10/14.

In the spirit of other recent posts, I give you:

Coach: "You sure he sucks?"
Scout: "Yes coach, I've seen the tape, and he sucks."
Coach: "How'd he get 12.5 sacks?"
Scout: "Don't know, but he really, really sucks. He should never have been in the league."
Coach: "BUT HE GOT 12.5 SACKS!"
Scout: "Yeah, but his technique is lousy, he can't read the QB worth a darn, he tires quickly, and forget stopping the run."
Coach: "You're fired!"

Best you're fired post ever!

gstelmack

06-15-2008, 08:21 AM

Best you're fired post ever!

To be fair, after all of these discussions Solecismic adjusted how quickly unmasking occurs, in 6.1 if I remember correctly.

Firefly

06-15-2008, 09:34 PM

You mean when the bars actually change, right? As in, that happens faster than it used to?

gstelmack

06-16-2008, 08:13 AM

You mean when the bars actually change, right? As in, that happens faster than it used to?

Correct.