How long would you go without pay?

[Radii]

I'm not really looking for advice, its a personal decision and I've put a ton of thought into it over the last few months, but we have tons of people here with tons of different experiences so i'm curious what people have gone through.



I work for a startup, there's 9 employees in the company and we work with some outside 3rd party developers for a lot of our work. I think we have a wondeful, potentially revolutionary product, but its not selling, investors are anxious after what has apparently been two years of horribly missed projections. I really don't know why its not working, there's a lot of management stuff I seriously disagree with but I know little about sales... the customers we have love us(we do have an actual product in the market), but its not catching on and spreading fast at all.

So the prospect of going under has been creeping up slowly for the last 8+ months and over the past two has become a very real possibility. Today though, is the first time that i'm seeing warning signs. I get paid on the 1st and 15th, direct deposit always hits the night before. So nothing shows up last night, so there's some concern. I come in and one of the executives has sent out an e-mail saying that payroll is hitting on the 16th instead of the 15th. We assume that they had to wait for a check to clear before they could make payroll. There's some severe annoyance that we weren't informed in advance about that, but I'm ok personally, i have savings built up in preperation for this, but some of the guys i work with live paycheck to paycheck and its *really* not cool.

anyway, now its the night of the 15th... no paycheck. I've basically committed to going down with the ship, I wouldn't mind some time off and while the resume is updated, it isn't going out yet. But one thing I've always said is that the day you can't pay me, that's the day the ship has sunk. i have some friends that worked for 2-3 weeks without a paycheck while their startups worked on some emergency funding, etc. I cannot fathom doing that myself. This "one or two days late" thing I can deal with but the lack of communication is killing me, and I'm kinda pondering where I should draw the line if this becomes a habit.

So yeah, mainly I'm just venting because I'm extremely pissed off at the lack of communication from the guys running the show here, in addition to some day to day mismanagement that's making it hard to do my job, but I'm curious what other people here have gone through with startups, or entrepreneurial ventures where there's inconsistent income coming in.

[Shkspr]

When I owned my business, the question of going without pay was tied to two metrics: how long I could afford to live without income and whether by not paying myself I was increasing the future return on the money I would have owed myself.

For a startup employee, that second benchmark comes into play only if you believe the company is close to breaking through, and if you have some vested interest in the compay's success (options, profitsharing, etc.), and the first benchmark becomes a tradeoff between the inconvenience of late/lost pay and the expense/inconvenience of finding alternate employment. If and when the company goes under, employees' status as a creditor puts them close to the back of the line.

If faced with the case you describe, I'd hit the eject button immediately if my skills were in demand, and if they weren't, I'd be using the company fax machine so hard the drum would have an imprint of my CV. Whether or not the company is going to make it or not isn't the issue; the issue is that nothing in your description leads me to believe you have any faith the company is going to make it.

In my case, I ran my own bookshop for about five years, and never took home more than about $800 a month - everything else went into the shop. Since I sold out and started working for the "man", I can mysteriously afford a mortgage, a car, and a wife. I hate having to rely on the whims of others to determine what I stock and how I sell...but six years in a 20'x20' studio apartment taught me that in a battle between owning a business and owning anything else...steady paychecks are the way to go.

[stevew]

From what I can recall the product is that you guys sell seems like a pretty good idea, so I'm shocked that it's not doing that well.

The no-pay thing, though, that's pretty fishy, especially without notice to the employees.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

When I worked for a small company that began having serious issues with bounced checks it took four weeks in a row where the checks were rubber for me to quit. I did get paid after quite a hassle each week, but the writing was on the wall. Two weeks later the place was bought out. Two weeks after that, everybody was fired by new ownership.

[primelord]

but some of the guys i work with live paycheck to paycheck and its *really* not cool.

Going to work for a start-up in a situation where you have to live paycheck to paycheck is just plain not smart.

[Radii]

Going to work for a start-up in a situation where you have to live paycheck to paycheck is just plain not smart.

One of them just turned in her notice this week, she has been there since the beginning when there was a large amount of funding though.

the other I don't know as much about, but i think she still lives in a very inexpensive college style environment. You're right though, if I didn't have a handle on my savings I would have been gone months ago probably.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

If it was anything other than a clerical error for a day or two, I am moving on fast.

As for the lack of communication, you shouldn't get mad but understand it as the second sign of armageddon (after nonpayment) for the company. If there actually was light at the end of the tunnel, they'd be telling you that. So, there's no communication because there is only bad news to tell. Anyways, that's the way I see it.

[Draft Dodger]

As for the lack of communication, you shouldn't get mad but understand it as the second sign of armageddon (after nonpayment) for the company. If there actually was light at the end of the tunnel, they'd be telling you that. So, there's no communication because there is only bad news to tell. Anyways, that's the way I see it.

exactly what I was going to say. I imagine I'd be more amenable to stick around (assuming I could afford to) if the PTB were being up front with me. Lack of communication like this is a huge warning sign.

[MikeVic]

That sucks to hear. I don't recall what you make, but it sucks that it isn't catching on.

As for surviving without pay, I live at home and have a bit saved up... so I would personally be able to live without pay for awhile. But I guess my situation doesn't help you. :)

I'm also someone that hates debt, so I try to keep myself debt-free and with spare cash just in case.

[Draft Dodger]

That sucks to hear. I don't recall what you make, but it sucks that it isn't catching on.


he makes IT from the ebay commercials

[Radii]

he makes IT from the ebay commercials

I wish, everyone loves IT.

We have a touch screen kiosk that sits in a waiting room at a doctor's office, it automates the patient check-in and runs a real time check of the patient's benefits which are then displayed in a web portal available to the office staff that verifies that the patient is actually covered, and in most cases also identifies the correct co-pay and/or deductible information depending on the insurance company.

[MikeVic]

That sounds neat.

[Coffee Warlord]

I've been in that boat. Company's done.

[st.cronin]

I worked for a finance company that went under. They still owe me at least 2k.

[Yellow5]

If it was anything other than a clerical error for a day or two, I am moving on fast.

As for the lack of communication, you shouldn't get mad but understand it as the second sign of armageddon (after nonpayment) for the company. If there actually was light at the end of the tunnel, they'd be telling you that. So, there's no communication because there is only bad news to tell. Anyways, that's the way I see it.


Been in this spot back in 2000 while working for a startup and have to agree... bad sign. I ended up not being paid for my last month of work (we were paid monthly) and when payday came around the bad news hit that "there would be a two week wait" for pay. I bailed and they went under two weeks later.

[ctmason]

I've been in this situation as well in previous employement and whether they go under next week or six months from now there is no benefit in you staying on any longer. As someone said above, company's done, time to move on.

[SnDvls]

That sounds neat.

"

wish my Dr. & dentist's office had this, it'd sure make the whole process a bit smoother IMO.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Hey Radii, if they don't end up paying you and the company goes under, some states allow you to recover unpaid wages personally from the principals of the company in certain situations (thus it doesn't matter that the company went under). Something to think about if you hang around and get dinged for considerable dough.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

"

wish my Dr. & dentist's office had this, it'd sure make the whole process a bit smoother IMO.

Perhaps not enough for the Dr. to plunk down a few thousand on the machine when he already has computer only a few feet away at the front desk. I'd be interested in what the response was from the those Docs that weren't interested.

[Radii]

The paycheck hit yesterday, so it ended up being 2 days late and one day later than we were told. Sept 1 should be interesting!


I have a billion theories as to why its not selling but I'm a developer, and my work is on the back-end connectivity to make the eligibility check possible, I help with customers whenever I need to but I'm about as far removed from the front end of the system as possible in a small company like this.