The Book of the New Sun

[Bonegavel]

After many failed attempts in the past, I've finally read deep into book 2 (of 4) of Gene Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun. It isn't light reading by any stretch, but it is very fascinating. So much goes on (a lot of it doesn't make any sense the first time through) that I could see reading this series many times over and getting new meaning out of it each time.

I'm staying away from the wiki entries for the story since I don't want any spoilers. I want my first time through to be untainted. Still, I wouldn't mind hearing from other's that have read it (or parts of it) and maybe discussing things up and to the point where I am at now.

[Surtt]

Gene Wolfe is one of my favorite SF authors.
I like the fact that he doesn't feel the need to spoon feed you everything but I do end a lot of his stories with the feeling I "missed something."

[Calis]

Good timing. I actually started reading through these again after the Favorite Fantasy thread. One of my favorites.

Great series, but yeah it can be pretty confusing at times, but I think once you wrap your head around the fact that Severian is very unreliable and manipulative as the storyteller it pieces some of it together better.

[Bonegavel]

Good timing. I actually started reading through these again after the Favorite Fantasy thread. One of my favorites.

Great series, but yeah it can be pretty confusing at times, but I think once you wrap your head around the fact that Severian is very unreliable and manipulative as the storyteller it pieces some of it together better.

Yes, that is coming to me as I get further in.

He has to tell us on more than one occasion that he never forgets, but it seems that he forgets that he has already told us this.

And yes, there is no spoon feeding with Wolfe. You are thrown into the pool in the deep end and good luck. That's why I'm hooked on it. I've worn out my dictionary with all the lookups. :D

[Surtt]

Yes, that is coming to me as I get further in.

He has to tell us on more than one occasion that he never forgets, but it seems that he forgets that he has already told us this.

And yes, there is no spoon feeding with Wolfe. You are thrown into the pool in the deep end and good luck. That's why I'm hooked on it. I've worn out my dictionary with all the lookups. :D

Have you read Soldier of the Mist?
The story itself is lighter reading, but if you look into the Greek mythology it gets deep fast.

[Bonegavel]

Almost done with the second book and Severian has just come across the 2 herdsmen on his way to Thrax.

I'm still not seeing much of Severian being an unreliable narrator since he is controlling the entire narrative. You are taking him at his word when he reports what somebody has said or done and if there are inconsistencies, I just haven't noticed them. Just reading through and getting to the next chapter is almost like physical excercise.

I still love when you finish a sentence and then have to read it over 5 or 6 times just to make sure you actually read it correctly. Severian says something fantastical and then moves on like it was as normal as breathing.

The story is like ancient myths come to life.

I'm enjoying myself so much so that I've just purchased from amazon the remainder of the 2 newer series. The books of the short sun and the books of the long sun and the coda to the new sun.

I have yet to find another author that can so alienate me and yet draw me in so closely.

[MrDNA]

Wow. Just last night I said "Hm, I am interested in the idea of unreliable narrators" (stuff just comes up in my head like that) - I googled it and found out about Gene Wolfe. Now seeing this thread, I'm going to have to check him out. Plus, I like Greek Mythology to boot! :D

[Bonegavel]

Wow. Just last night I said "Hm, I am interested in the idea of unreliable narrators" (stuff just comes up in my head like that) - I googled it and found out about Gene Wolfe. Now seeing this thread, I'm going to have to check him out. Plus, I like Greek Mythology to boot! :D

As has been said, it ain't the easiest read and you will scratch your head through most of it but somehow it has that "just one more chapter" taste especailly at 11pm when little boys with jobs should be in bed. Luckily Gene keeps his chapters small for the most part.

[Bonegavel]

The main problem I having with the "unreliable narrator" that is pinned to these novels is that aren't all narrators unreliable to some extent? Especially the first person narrative. All actions are filtered through Severian and so, of course, we are getting his perspective on things. I thought that was what narrators do.

[OldGiants]

After many failed attempts in the past, I've finally read deep into book 2 (of 4) of Gene Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun. It isn't light reading by any stretch, but it is very fascinating. So much goes on (a lot of it doesn't make any sense the first time through) that I could see reading this series many times over and getting new meaning out of it each time.

I'm staying away from the wiki entries for the story since I don't want any spoilers. I want my first time through to be untainted. Still, I wouldn't mind hearing from other's that have read it (or parts of it) and maybe discussing things up and to the point where I am at now.

I don't think this is giving anything away, but you aren't in for a mere 4 books, but you'll have to read The Urth of the New Sun (1 volume) The Book of the Long Sun (4 volumes) and The Book of the Short Sun (3 volumes) to have it all explained. The good news is that in the last book, Return to the Whorl, Wolfe explains most, if not all, that has gone on, including the puzzling parts in the early bits of Torturer.

It is good stuff, but Jack Vance's Dying Earth is better, shorter and more fun.

[Bonegavel]

That is good to know!

All the books have arrived and are sitting anxious on my book shelf. Thank God for amazon.com.

I was doing a bit of google book searching and came across the name Severian as a 5th century Bishop and this is what the text says about him:

Severian, however, sought only of gratifying his auditors and of pleasing this people with his eloquence.

hxxp://books.google.com/books?id=s4cOAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA2-PA376&dq=severian


Kind of interesting.

[Bonegavel]

Well, I've finished the four volume set entitled "The Book of the New Sun" and while the rest of the books didn't hold up as well as the first, it was a good read and I'm now over half done with "The Urth of the New Sun" and it is even more surreal than the first 4.

I was hoping this 5th book would be Wolfe's behind-the-scenes explanation of all that has happened before but alas it creates all new head-scratchers over which to ponder.

[OldGiants]

Well, I've finished the four volume set entitled "The Book of the New Sun" and while the rest of the books didn't hold up as well as the first, it was a good read and I'm now over half done with "The Urth of the New Sun" and it is even more surreal than the first 4.

I was hoping this 5th book would be Wolfe's behind-the-scenes explanation of all that has happened before but alas it creates all new head-scratchers over which to ponder.

Nope. Lots of folks were hoping that back in the '80s when he wrote it. Long Sun is the best of the sets, IMO, but real answers don't come until Short Sun.

The Long Sun world is immensely immersive, and Steve Jackson once did a war game/role playing version of the martial aspects. Hard, if not impossible to find.

When you're done, I'd be up for discussion of individual books/series.

[Bonegavel]

Nope. Lots of folks were hoping that back in the '80s when he wrote it. Long Sun is the best of the sets, IMO, but real answers don't come until Short Sun.

The Long Sun world is immensely immersive, and Steve Jackson once did a war game/role playing version of the martial aspects. Hard, if not impossible to find.

When you're done, I'd be up for discussion of individual books/series.

I would like that since every time I think I understand something, I'm sucker-punched in the solar plexus.


The New Urth has really confused me as much as it has helped. So often Severian seems to phase out of Briah and wind up other places (other times) and the whole Yessod thing is even more confusing. The whole Tzadkiel stuff may be the most perplexing of all.

The way it is written makes you feel like you should know what the hell is going on when sometimes it seems that Wolfe has O.D.'d on something and is just rambling on the page.

I can't stop reading even though my sense tells me that the entire series of books is going to end and I still won't know what the hell is going on.


I remember thinking that Stephen Donaldson's The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant could piss me off and yet make me want to read every drop. That's nothing compared to this series.

Insert smiley face and frowny face. :), heh

[OldGiants]

The 'big picture' of your spoiler stuff gets explained in the last volume, so keep reading.

I've read this series through three times (some books skimmed more than that), and there are still parts I don't get, but overall it tied up nicely.

[Bonegavel]

I'm a few chapters deep into Nightside of the Long Sun. It is 3rd person which is nice for a change and the writing is just as good as the others. Meaning, I'm confused as hell but liking it.

Seems like every series is a step back in time. Long Sun is before New Sun and the Short Sun (the next series) comes before this one. I'm trying to piece this one together with the Mainframe and the dieties.

[OldGiants]

I'm a few chapters deep into Nightside of the Long Sun. It is 3rd person which is nice for a change and the writing is just as good as the others. Meaning, I'm confused as hell but liking it.

Seems like every series is a step back in time. Long Sun is before New Sun and the Short Sun (the next series) comes before this one. I'm trying to piece this one together with the Mainframe and the dieties.

Um, no. Short Sun is definitely after Long Sun. It picks up where Long Sun leaves off. You'll learn the temporal relationship of New Sun to the other two at the end of Short Sun.

I started New Sun and finished Torturer last week and made about page 100 in the second book.

I realized I had not reread New Sun after finishing Short Sun. I went back to Long Sun and reread Short Sun. Now that I know what happened, its cool to reread and know what's really going on.

It's also important to remember the conversation between Severian and Agia in which Severian is pestering Agia for answers to how the Botanic Gardens work. She answers, "Do you think there answers to everything here? Is that true in the place where you come from?"

So be warned.

[clintl]

The Book of the New Sun is my all-time favorite series. I've been busy the last few years, and never got around to reading The Book of the Short Sun, but your discussion has inspired me to read the whole thing from start to finish.

If you haven't already, you might be interested in picking up Castle of Days. There's a section of that book called The Castle of the Otter (originally published as a separate book) that collects some essays Wolfe wrote about The Book of the New Sun - including a glossary of the more unusual vocabulary. And his short story collection, Starwater Strains, has a novella, "Empires of Foliage and Flower" that is supposedly from the book of folk tales Severian carries around.

[Bonegavel]

The Book of the New Sun

* The Shadow of the Torturer (1980)
* The Claw of the Conciliator (1981)
* The Sword of the Lictor (1982)
* The Citadel of the Autarch (1983)

The Urth of the New Sun (1987)

The Book of the Long Sun

* Nightside the Long Sun (1993)
* Lake of the Long Sun (1994)
* Caldé of the Long Sun (1994)
* Exodus From the Long Sun (1996)

The Book of the Short Sun

* On Blue's Waters (1999)
* In Green's Jungles (2000)
* Return to the Whorl (2001)


I am finally approaching the end. I am almost finished with On Blue's Waters. It has been a long but worthwhile journey and this man has no other company at his level of excellence.

I'm still hoping the last book helps explain stuff because it is still a jumbled mess in my brain. I don't know how the man can write such confusing yet mesmerizing material.

[OldGiants]

The Book of the New Sun


I'm still hoping the last book helps explain stuff because it is still a jumbled mess in my brain. I don't know how the man can write such confusing yet mesmerizing material.

The final book does explain it all. You may want to reread it, as I did, but you will get all the answers to the big stuff.

[Bonegavel]

The final book does explain it all. You may want to reread it, as I did, but you will get all the answers to the big stuff.

You're also saying that it makes a re-read of it all worth it? I fully admit that I think i understand about 1 percent of the odd occurrences that have gone on.


What is starting to really kill me is the whole Krait and Babbie thing. Seawrack (don't get me started on her) mentions how Babbie can talk, and therefore is a person, and Horn doesn't see it because he doesn't want to believe it. Horn mentions how Babbie can sit up and help row the boat etc. and how he almost sees babbie as a person but then doesn't. That is confusing as hell.

He hates (sometimes wants to KILL) his son for what doesn't make any sense.

The part I think I do understand is that he keeps talking about Nettle and how he loves her when really he is enjoying banging the shit out of his multiple wives and, previously, Seawrack.


One thing I really like is how Horn makes all these statements of fact and he builds his entire world around these when clearly some are false or you know it could be either way but he chooses to believe one vs the other without any proof.

He uses first person wonderfully.

[OldGiants]

I'm on my third complete reread through. That is four times, at least. I also went back and reread Long Sun and then New Sun without going back to the beginning. It is just as entertaining this time.

Wolfe is known for the 'unreliable narrator' skills he's used in his work.

What you mention in the Spoiler is one of the most irritating part of the books for me, too. I have my own idea what Wolfe has in mind, but this isn't the time to write it out.

[Bonegavel]

Well, I just finished On Blue's Waters and I'm more confused than ever.


There have been hints all along that Horn is actually Silk, but that doesn't make any sense. At the end he actually says, 'I've been called "silk" and "horn" ...' I don't know what to make of that.


I've panicked a little as I looked around my office this morning for the second book and can't find it! I know it is somewhere around, I've just misplaced it. My office looks like hell.

He keeps teasing us with the secret of the inhumani. Grrr. It's amazing when you realize you've just read umpteen pages of text and nothing has really happened. I mean, it took a whole book for Horn to get to Pajarocu. Wolfe keeps hammering the same old points over and over and then teases you with a smidgen of explanation but then coats it with a coating of confusion using simple language.

I'm still trying to figure out what the hell the Azoth is. I'm imagining a laser gun type thing but he never explains it other than to say a/the "demon" comes out of it and it is very powerful.

I hate to keep asking but does the final book have that 6th-Sense-AHA! moment or is it how I imagine Wolfe will explain yet not explain?

[OldGiants]

Well, I just finished On Blue's Waters and I'm more confused than ever.


There have been hints all along that Horn is actually Silk, but that doesn't make any sense. At the end he actually says, 'I've been called "silk" and "horn" ...' I don't know what to make of that.


I've panicked a little as I looked around my office this morning for the second book and can't find it! I know it is somewhere around, I've just misplaced it. My office looks like hell.

He keeps teasing us with the secret of the inhumani. Grrr. It's amazing when you realize you've just read umpteen pages of text and nothing has really happened. I mean, it took a whole book for Horn to get to Pajarocu. Wolfe keeps hammering the same old points over and over and then teases you with a smidgen of explanation but then coats it with a coating of confusion using simple language.

I'm still trying to figure out what the hell the Azoth is. I'm imagining a laser gun type thing but he never explains it other than to say a/the "demon" comes out of it and it is very powerful.

I hate to keep asking but does the final book have that 6th-Sense-AHA! moment or is it how I imagine Wolfe will explain yet not explain?

The inhumi is explained in detail. You will have your answers and like them, that is, feel you have a real answer and understand what happened and why. This might even happen at the end of Green's Jungles, now that I think about it.

The Azoth is indeed 'like a laser'. It has been described along the way as an off-world weapon, so you aren't being misled. 'Azoth' was the alchemist term for 'the universal solvent, so think of the Azoth as melting things away to nothing. Half the fun of Wolfe is looking up his words to discern what he is driving at.

Wolfe kind of explains your spoiler, but I found the explanation less satisfying the other ones. But Wolfe makes it reasonably clear. Once you finish Return to the Whorl, you will understand a lot. I think I posted early on that Return to the Whorl explains the very first scene in the graveyard and you will be amazed to see Wolfe included all the relevant detail that explains the scene and he did it in the first 50 pages of these volumes--right under your nose, so to speak.

And until you read the explanation, you won't 'get' that scene.

Not every detail is explained, but the big picture sure is. And I think you will understand and appreciate it.

[Chief Rum]

Never gotten into Gene Wolfe, although I have heard plenty of good things. So if I were to undertake this trio of series, would I read it in the order above shown? Is it intended to be a long sequential, where each series builds on the last? Thanks.

[Bonegavel]

The inhumi is explained in detail. You will have your answers and like them, that is, feel you have a real answer and understand what happened and why. This might even happen at the end of Green's Jungles, now that I think about it.

The Azoth is indeed 'like a laser'. It has been described along the way as an off-world weapon, so you aren't being misled. 'Azoth' was the alchemist term for 'the universal solvent, so think of the Azoth as melting things away to nothing. Half the fun of Wolfe is looking up his words to discern what he is driving at.

Wolfe kind of explains your spoiler, but I found the explanation less satisfying the other ones. But Wolfe makes it reasonably clear. Once you finish Return to the Whorl, you will understand a lot. I think I posted early on that Return to the Whorl explains the very first scene in the graveyard and you will be amazed to see Wolfe included all the relevant detail that explains the scene and he did it in the first 50 pages of these volumes--right under your nose, so to speak.

And until you read the explanation, you won't 'get' that scene.

Not every detail is explained, but the big picture sure is. And I think you will understand and appreciate it.

Sweet. Yes, that graveyard scene still haunts me. I'm starting to look forward to a re-read even though I am a slow deliberate reader which is made all the more difficult with Wolfe's prose.

I found my volumes and am now reading IGJ.

[Bonegavel]

Never gotten into Gene Wolfe, although I have heard plenty of good things. So if I were to undertake this trio of series, would I read it in the order above shown? Is it intended to be a long sequential, where each series builds on the last? Thanks.

I would read as they were written:

The Book of the New Sun

* The Shadow of the Torturer (1980)
* The Claw of the Conciliator (1981)
* The Sword of the Lictor (1982)
* The Citadel of the Autarch (1983)

The Urth of the New Sun (1987)

The Book of the Long Sun

* Nightside the Long Sun (1993)
* Lake of the Long Sun (1994)
* Caldé of the Long Sun (1994)
* Exodus From the Long Sun (1996)

The Book of the Short Sun

* On Blue's Waters (1999)
* In Green's Jungles (2000)
* Return to the Whorl (2001)

Easy to get all of them through Amazon. New Sun and Long Sun come in 2 books of 2 each which is nice.

They are sequential as written. Maybe start off with the first 2 books (Shadow and Claw) and go from there since I consider it a rough ride at first. In fact, I had the first 2 books from a friend around 2001 and couldn't get into it at that point. Once I found out he had completed the entire cycle (which was sometime last year), I decided to give it a shot and am glad I did. I feel like I've accomplished something.

You spend so much time wondering what the hell you've read that it almost makes you want to rip up the books. But somehow you get over the hump and the confusion makes you want to read all-the-more. And now that I know it is cleared up at the end, I can't get enough.

[OldGiants]

I finished Neal Stephenson's Anathem yesterday. While I enjoyed it, the comparisons to Wolfe leave me puzzled. Yes, it is smart men in robes, but Stephenson is far more straight forward and interested in ideas of science. Wolfe is an avowed 'man of faith.' It does make an interesting comparison in that the plot details have many points of similarity. But the two authors treat the ideas quite differently.

I suppose both authors do make up cool words for their universes--Wolfe being far more interesting, IMO. But then Jack Vance has always been the best at that. I've yet to find anyone who understands me when I say someone is a 'proctosculator.' One of my favorite Vance terms along with the swamp creature he calls a heceptor (sp?).

Anyway, enjoy Wolfe.

[Bonegavel]

Getting a bit worried. I'm a ways into Return to the Whorl and doesn't seem like anything is being explained.


Seems the soul can leave the body (we know Mucor does this at will - and Horn does it when in proximity to an inhumi?). But when they show up on the other worlds, they are in different people's bodies?

The outsider is the god of all outside the Whorl? Is he now throwing in that god's are real and not just people from the past? Is this like the matrix where he is living this all in his head? - that better not be it.

Nothing yet to explain the traveling they did in the botanical gardens.

I'm getting some sort of vibe about the girl with the huge thighs in the Severian stories and inhumas.

What about the Hierodules whose time ran in reverse to ours?

Still very confused.

[OldGiants]

I know your first three points get covered in Whorl. Do you know the secret of the inhumi yet? I thought came at the end of Green's Jungles.

[Bonegavel]

Well, Horn/Silk keeps teasing us with the secret that he can't reveal. If he has revealed it I'm not aware.

I know they don't like cold. They can be left under rocks and not die. They take on the aspects of the creatures they eat.

[Chief Rum]

FWIW, I grabbed the Book of the New Sun (in its four books in two books form) at Barnes & Noble (after checking prices at Borders, of course, and then loudly proclaiming I was going to Barnes & Noble instead) off of recommendation from this thread.

I am just near the start of the Citadel of the Autarch. It has certainly been an interesting read. Wolfe takes a bit of getting used to, but I can see why Neal Stephenson compares with him in the same manner. I like Stephenson (after an adjustment phase), and I am liking Wolfe (also after an adjustment phase).

[Bonegavel]

FWIW, I grabbed the Book of the New Sun (in its four books in two books form) at Barnes & Noble (after checking prices at Borders, of course, and then loudly proclaiming I was going to Barnes & Noble instead) off of recommendation from this thread.

I am just near the start of the Citadel of the Autarch. It has certainly been an interesting read. Wolfe takes a bit of getting used to, but I can see why Neal Stephenson compares with him in the same manner. I like Stephenson (after an adjustment phase), and I am liking Wolfe (also after an adjustment phase).

It took me many starts over 3 years to get into Wolfe (I kept tossing the book on the shelf in frustration). But now I'm on the 12th book and am sad there are no more.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still frustrated, it's just that it's a good frustrated.

[Sun Tzu]

I prefer the original me

[sachmo71]

i just ordered the omnibus of the first two books! woot!

[Bonegavel]

i just ordered the omnibus of the first two books! woot!

You are in for a wonderfully bizarre ride. I'm on the very last book and, as I keep mentioning, I'm still confused about a lot of stuff.

I'm over half done with Return to the Whorl and I'm convinced I'm going to get my explanations :)

[sachmo71]

Found this on Amazon:

Amazon.com: Lexicon Urthus: A Dictionary for the Urth Cycle: Michael Andre-Driussi, Gene Wolfe: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Lexicon-Urthus-Dictionary-Urth-Cycle/dp/0964279517/ref=reg_hu-wl_item-added)

Google has a great preview of this book, and probably complete enough to not require a purchase. However, I will almost certainly buy it, as I want to understand this series as completely as i can, and i can't seem to find the solar system chart in the preview.