Switch Pitchers : Good Idea or Crazy Nonsense? [Archive]

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DaddyTorgo

09-03-2007, 01:05 PM

This is sort of one of those ideas that I've always sort of...wondered about. Is it a genius idea or absolute lunacy? Think of how devestatingly effective it could be? Even if just from an intimidation / WTF factor

Eaglesfan27

09-03-2007, 01:08 PM

What was the name of the pitcher that tried to do this a few years ago?

DaddyTorgo

09-03-2007, 01:09 PM

What was the name of the pitcher that tried to do this a few years ago?

no idea. But i'm sorry I missed it. Seems like it would be a hell of a lot of work mechanically to get decent enough to be ML-caliber, but I don't see why it couldn't be done. Might even be beneficial, even out the wear+tear on the body

Pumpy Tudors

09-03-2007, 01:11 PM

What was the name of the pitcher that tried to do this a few years ago?
I think Mike Maddux did it once or twice.

Edit: Nope, Greg Harris.

Logan

09-03-2007, 01:18 PM

I thought this was going to be about swapping a lefty and righty between the mound and LF/RF when it's appropriate.

I played golf a couple weeks ago with a random guy. He started out by hooking the ball into the rough, just rolling into a wooded area. When he found his ball, I noticed he hit his approach shot left-handed. I could've sworn he teed off as a righty, so I asked him about it. Turns out he's ambidextrous, although he's stronger as a righty, but he carries a LH 5-iron and PW in his bag. Tremendous tool to have on the course.

rowech

09-03-2007, 01:30 PM

larrymcg421

09-03-2007, 01:31 PM

Here's the crazy one I've had...

Have 11 pitchers who are capable of going 3 innings every three days. Game 1 sees 3 of them pitch 3 innings each, game 2 sees the next 3, and game 3 sees the final 3. If one runs into trouble, you use the other two pitchers to fill in the spots.

And Scott Boras takes a hit out on you.

korme

09-03-2007, 01:35 PM

There's currently a dominating pitcher in college right now that throws lefty and righty...

wade moore

09-03-2007, 01:39 PM

Someone told me about a guy that the Yankees drafted, but it might be the same guy Shorty is talking about...

korme

09-03-2007, 01:43 PM

<nyt_headline version="1.0" type=" "> Throwing Batters Curves Before Throwing a Pitch </nyt_headline>

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/04/06/sports/06pitcher.1.600.jpg Chris Machian for The New York Times
In 18 appearances this season, with alternating arms, Venditte has a 3.29 earned run average.

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<nyt_byline version="1.0" type=" "> </nyt_byline>By ALAN SCHWARZ (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/alan_schwarz/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
Published: April 6, 2007
 <nyt_text> </nyt_text>The pitch was nothing remarkable: Pat Venditte, Creighton University’s temporarily right-handed pitcher, threw a fastball past a Northern Iowa batter for a called strike three. It was his next windup that evinced this young pitcher’s uniqueness and, perhaps, professional future.
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http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/04/06/sports/06pitcher.2.190.jpg Chris Machian for The New York Times
Venditte’s custom glove, with four finger holes flanked by two thumb holes.

As his teammates whipped the ball around the infield, Venditte smoothly, unthinkingly, removed his custom glove from his left hand and slipped it on his right. Moments later he leaned back, threw a strike left-handed to the next batter, and finished the side in order.
Venditte is believed to be the only ambidextrous pitcher in N.C.A.A. (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/n/national_collegiate_athletic_assn/index.html?inline=nyt-org) Division I college baseball, the ultimate relief specialist. A junior, he throws left-handed to lefties and right-handed to righties, and effectively. In a home game in Omaha last Friday, he allowed only one hit in five and a third shutout innings to earn the victory against Northern Iowa.
Because neither arm was particularly tired afterward, Venditte also pitched in both games of Creighton’s doubleheader against Northern Iowa two days later, retiring the only batter he faced (left-handed) in the first game and then tossing a shutout inning (pitching both ways) in the nightcap. He also pitched two innings, alternating arms, in Tuesday’s game against archrival Nebraska. Venditte (pronounced ven-DEH-tee) has a fine 3.29 earned run average in 18 appearances this season.
“I don’t think twice about it,” said Venditte, whose father, Pat Sr., taught him to throw with both arms when he was 3. “You grew up with it, you love it, you want to keep playing as long as you can.”
Venditte has improved so much in the past year that major league scouts are starting to consider him a possible late-round pick in this June’s amateur draft because of his versatility. “He could be an economical two-for-one,” Jerry Lafferty, a longtime scout for the Philadelphia Phillies (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/baseball/majorleague/philadelphiaphillies/index.html?inline=nyt-org), said last Friday while assessing the 21-year-old Venditte from behind the backstop.
College baseball has had a few switch-pitchers in the past 15 years, but the major leagues have had only one since the 19th century: Greg Harris, primarily a right-handed reliever for many clubs from 1981 through 1995, pitched one inning using both arms for the Montreal Expos in his final season. That outing was considered more stunt than strategy.
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 Venditte is smoothly proficient from both sides. His deliveries are not mirror images of each other: as a right-hander he throws over the top and relatively hard, up to 91 miles an hour, with a tumbling curveball; as a left-hander, he relies on a whip-like sidearm delivery and a biting slider.
Umpires working Creighton’s games have to dust off seldom-used rules regarding switch-pitchers. Like everyone else, Venditte gets only eight warm-up pitches upon entering a game and five before any inning, whether he chooses to throw left-handed or right-handed, and may not warm up again if he changes arms midinning.
A switch-pitcher facing a switch-hitter could make a fine Abbott and Costello routine. Against Nebraska last year, a switch-hitter came to the plate right-handed, prompting Venditte to switch to his right arm, which caused the batter to move to the left-hand batter’s box, with Venditte switching his arm again. Umpires ultimately restored order, applying the rule (the same as that in the majors) that a pitcher must declare which arm he will use before throwing his first pitch and cannot change before the at-bat ends.
“Eventually, after 10 or 15 minutes, they got it figured out,” Venditte said with a smile.
Venditte’s customized Louisville Slugger glove is as distinctive as its owner: four fingers are flanked by two thumbs, perfectly symmetrical, so that he can slip it on either hand with ease. It allows him to change throwing arms so seamlessly during warmups — one second No. 27 is throwing left-handed, the next right-handed — that many unaware fans and opponents do double-takes.
“The first time you see him, it’s definitely a distraction,” said Northern Iowa shortstop Brandon Douglas, who struck out (right-handed) against Venditte last Friday. “On the bus ride to games people talk, ‘You should see this guy. It’s pretty neat.’ ”
Until teams actually face him, that is. Creighton’s coach, Ed Servais, initially resisted using Venditte both ways because, he said, “I am a traditionalist when it comes to baseball, and I didn’t want it to become a circus.” But Venditte proved his ability last season, when he used both arms in 22 games and struck out batters each way in 12 of them.

The Bluejays use Venditte as a long reliever so that he can be deployed at any point in any game. In the Northern Iowa game last Friday, for example, Venditte quelled a third-inning rally and then, facing a lineup that alternated its lefty and righty hitters, calmly switched throwing arms 10 times in the next five innings and allowed no runs and only one single. (Pitch limits are looser with Venditte because he shares the workload between his arms.)
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Pat Venditte’s name split a lineup card.

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“Usually you have to follow the hitter: a left-hander’s coming up, so you have to decide whether to bring a lefty in,” Creighton’s pitching coach, Rob Smith, said. “In this scenario, you have the control. It helps the depth of the bullpen a lot — you don’t have to burn a guy to get the matchup you want.”
Venditte is naturally right-handed. But his father, a former college ballplayer who at 61 still catches for his Men’s Senior Baseball League team, noticed his 3-year-old son picking up a ball and throwing it with both arms on his own, and encouraged him to pursue it.
“You’ve got to cultivate that,” said Pat Sr., who later built a batting cage, complete with lights, near the family’s home in an Italian neighborhood of Omaha.
To build his son’s muscles for baseball, Pat Sr. also taught Little Pat to punt with both legs and throw a football with both arms. “If I’d stuck with it,” he said, “he could have been a QB with both hands.”
Venditte’s mound versatility could become an interesting test of baseball’s trend toward specialization. Major league teams have long forced college stars who both pitch and hit — players like Dave Stieb, John Olerud (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/john_olerud/index.html?inline=nyt-per) and Brad Wilkerson — to focus on either pitching or hitting as professionals, claiming that one is difficult enough. But as bullpens become ever more segmented, with left-handed and right-handed specialists entering games for only one or two batters apiece, a pitcher who can do both for one salary would certainly be intriguing.
Venditte said he would probably return to Creighton for his senior season, trying to add a few miles an hour to his fastballs and enjoying the camaraderie of college ball. After throwing his five-plus innings last Friday, Venditte characteristically shunned ice treatment and skipped the trainer’s room. He joined the rest of his teammates by pulling the tarp across the diamond — with both hands, naturally.

DaddyTorgo

09-03-2007, 02:00 PM

wade moore

09-03-2007, 02:23 PM

Yeah... shorty and I are talking about the same guy.

MrDNA

09-03-2007, 02:25 PM

DaddyTorgo

09-03-2007, 03:04 PM

This board is starting to freak me out. This is the second time this week that I was thinking about some random topic, logged on here and found a post about it. What's even more nuts is that some people have done it/are doing it. :eek:

that's because this board contains the sum total of all knowledge in the universe.

it's all about knowing what to type in the search box, that's all ;)

Pumpy Tudors

09-03-2007, 03:20 PM

I typed "butts" in the search box and got a picture of Subby.

Fonzie

09-03-2007, 04:13 PM

Pumpy Tudors

09-03-2007, 04:20 PM

As far as the poll in this thread goes, what's so crazy about the idea of using an ambidextrous pitcher? What's so strange about it? If a guy can do it effectively, let him do it. Is there any reason not to? To me, that sounds like telling Chipper Jones to stop switch hitting.

Logan

09-03-2007, 04:22 PM

There are a couple switch hitters that should stop switch hitting.

DaddyTorgo

09-03-2007, 04:23 PM

Pumpy Tudors

09-03-2007, 04:30 PM

I guess it was a bad example for me to use Chipper Jones. :D

Logan

09-03-2007, 04:37 PM

Back in 1998 when Todd Hundley came back from elbow surgery (and after we traded for Piazza, and stuck Hundley in LF with disastrous results) he insisted on maintaining his switch hitting.

As a lefty, he was awful. Checking baseball-reference.com, he hit .178 against RHP in 107 ABs, with 3 HRs.

There's no adjective for how he hit as a righty. In his 17 ABs, he got 1 hit and struck out 14 times. Yeah, keep switch hitting you dick.

(just for fun, adjusted to 650 at bats, he would have struck out 455 times)

korme

09-03-2007, 04:48 PM

Someone a year or two ago dropped switch hitting, someone fairly decent I believe... I can't for the life of me think of who it was though. I want to say an infielder...

clintl

09-03-2007, 04:53 PM

korme

09-03-2007, 04:55 PM

The problem with the idea is that your #1 pitcher is typically a lot better than your #11 pitcher.

Yeah, I imagine you only try that with a very mediocre staff... what happens if your starter that is supposed to go just 3 innings retires the first 9 batters in a row, do you really pull him just to keep it systematic?

clintl

09-03-2007, 04:55 PM

Someone a year or two ago dropped switch hitting, someone fairly decent I believe... I can't for the life of me think of who it was though. I want to say an infielder...

It was more than a year or two ago - more like around 2000, I think - but J. T. Snow was originally a switch hitter who stopped switch hitting after doing poorly hitting right handed over a period of a few years.

clintl

09-03-2007, 04:56 PM

Yeah, I imagine you only try that with a very mediocre staff... what happens if your starter that is supposed to go just 3 innings retires the first 9 batters in a row, do you really pull him just to keep it systematic?

Even on a mediocre staff, the #1 pitcher is going to be a lot better. To be honest, I think one of the reasons (besides steroids, maple bats, smaller ball parks, etc.) that offense has gone up is the massive expansion of bullpen staffs and the proliferation of bullpen use and specialization. Twenty-five years ago, a 4-man rotation and 5-man or 6-man bullpen was the norm. Now, a 12-man pitching staff is commonplace, and the guys at the bottom of the staff actually get used despite the fact that most of them are crap.

RPI-Fan

09-03-2007, 04:57 PM

The problem with the idea is that your #1 pitcher is typically a lot better than your #11 pitcher.

I think the idea is that paying 11 #5's is cheaper than a 1 through 11. (i.e. the performance drop from #1 to #5 is not as great as the salary drop).

korme

09-03-2007, 04:57 PM

It was more than a year or two ago - more like around 2000, I think - but J. T. Snow was originally a switch hitter who stopped switch hitting after doing poorly hitting right handed over a period of a few years.

That's who I was thinking of. Thanks. Year or two, 8 years ago, same thing.

korme

09-03-2007, 04:58 PM

Even on a mediocre staff, the #1 pitcher is going to be a lot better.

Have you looked at the Devil Rays roster?

clintl

09-03-2007, 05:02 PM

I think the idea is that paying 11 #5's is cheaper than a 1 through 11. (i.e. the performance drop from #1 to #5 is not as great as the salary drop).

I would disagree with that. Most #5 starters are not very good.

DaddyTorgo

09-03-2007, 05:03 PM

I would disagree with that. Most #5 starters are not very good.

most are alright the first time through the order though, which is what we're essentially looking at.

clintl

09-03-2007, 05:03 PM

Have you looked at the Devil Rays roster?

There's a difference between "mediocre" and "abysmal."

clintl

09-03-2007, 05:06 PM

most are alright the first time through the order though, which is what we're essentially looking at.

If you're only going to do it with your 5th starter, then that might be a viable strategy. But there's no way it makes sense to set up your pitching staff so that your ace only pitches three innings a start. You want him on the mound as much as possible.

DaddyTorgo

09-03-2007, 05:07 PM

If you're only going to do it with your 5th starter, then that might be a viable strategy. But there's no way it makes sense to set up your pitching staff so that your ace only pitches three innings a start. You want him on the mound as much as possible.

you wouldn't have an "ace" though. So you wouldn't have to pay that high salary. You'd have 5 guys who were #4 or #5 guys.

Logan

09-03-2007, 05:08 PM

The problem with this idea is that with the pitchers you'd be putting into these roles (you're not breaking the bank for anyone), this will essentially be a crapshoot for 3 innings, 3 times, every game. There's not many relievers out there who you can count on for a consistently good inning...how are you going to get 3 guys to give you 3 everyday? A pitching staff of #5 starters/6th or 7th inning guys could give up 15 runs a game.

clintl

09-03-2007, 05:11 PM

you wouldn't have an "ace" though. So you wouldn't have to pay that high salary. You'd have 5 guys who were #4 or #5 guys.

Then you had better work on developing a couple if you want to win a pennant. You are going to be a last place or next to last place team if all you have are a bunch of #4s and #5s, no matter how you use them.

larrymcg421

09-03-2007, 05:15 PM

You could use your ace normally, and then split up your other starts in the above format by signing underpriced decent middle relievers.

Logan

09-03-2007, 05:44 PM

You could use your ace normally, and then split up your other starts in the above format by signing underpriced decent middle relievers.

1. Most decent middle relievers aren't going to be underpriced.
2. If you think someone is underpriced, you're probably going to be taking a gamble -- trying to catch lightning in a bottle. That's what you want to deal with over the course of an entire baseball season? Or maybe even multiple seasons?

korme

09-03-2007, 06:31 PM

1. Most decent middle relievers aren't going to be underpriced.
2. If you think someone is underpriced, you're probably going to be taking a gamble -- trying to catch lightning in a bottle. That's what you want to deal with over the course of an entire baseball season? Or maybe even multiple seasons?

It's all hypothetical, Jack

Logan

09-03-2007, 06:39 PM

It's all hypothetical, Jack

So the point of this board is so we can all post our thoughts and no one can discuss why they will/won't work? Cool.

EagleFan

09-03-2007, 06:43 PM

You could use your ace normally, and then split up your other starts in the above format by signing underpriced decent middle relievers.

Who really cares about the salary? If you are winning with higher paid pitchers than it sure as hell is worth it instead of getting shelled with a bunch of throw away pitchers (which is all that you would get with that idea as no pitcher that could even be a #5 on another club would even buy into this as they would rather be a #5 somewhere with a chance to prove themselves than part of some gimmic rotation).

EagleFan

09-03-2007, 06:48 PM

As for the "switch pitcher": It would be a solid idea if the person was good enough to really pull it off. If a pitcher was good enough to do that, wouldn't it make more sense to concentrate on one style of pitching? The idea here is that I would rather take the time and effort put into improving the "off side" and use it to improve the natural side so instead of being average on both sides one could be good to great on one side.

Point to ponder: When a switch hitter comes up does it lead to a long staredown?

Logan

09-03-2007, 06:54 PM

That was brought up in the article Shorty posted.

A switch-pitcher facing a switch-hitter could make a fine Abbott and Costello routine. Against Nebraska last year, a switch-hitter came to the plate right-handed, prompting Venditte to switch to his right arm, which caused the batter to move to the left-hand batter’s box, with Venditte switching his arm again. Umpires ultimately restored order, applying the rule (the same as that in the majors) that a pitcher must declare which arm he will use before throwing his first pitch and cannot change before the at-bat ends.

EagleFan

09-03-2007, 08:33 PM

That was brought up in the article Shorty posted.

So I'm supposed to read Shorty's posts now? ;) :)

Poli

09-04-2007, 06:15 AM

I tried running a dynasty thread using a 3/3/3 split on the pitching staff. Basically, I read about the concept in the late 80s. The article talked about how a former Braves manager nearly tried it years earlier and how he'd like to institute it in the minors for a trial if he ever had the opportunity.

The splits, which included 4 left handers to throw off platoon hitting (which in my opinion isn't used as much these days). One left pitching the middle 3 in the first game and the third game, the other two starting and finishing the 2nd game.

The manager nearly pulled it off in 1981 during the strike year but a pitcher balked at the idea of starting every 3 days and never having the opportunity to "win" a game...as wins would nearly always go to the 2nd or 3rd pitcher.

The concept also included 2 more relievers, preferably a lefty and a righty to help mop up or close out games. In today's game, you're likely to have that 12th reliever as well.

The main issues are pitcher egos in relation to wins and saves, double headers would also take a toll and ruin your two day rests, as well as finding competent players capable of giving you three innings of works every 3 days.

Now I'm late for work because I sat here explaining this. ;)

saldana

09-04-2007, 06:30 AM

little bit late to the thread, but Billy Wagner is actually right handed, and could pitch in the high 90s with his right arm until he broke it...during the time he couldnt use his arm, he taught himself to pitch lefty....dont know if he can still whip it from the right side or not, but it can be done.

Young Drachma

09-04-2007, 07:53 AM

I think this is an interesting enough idea that I might try it with one of the crap teams in one of my dynasties right now. Especially for the salary saving implications, I think it might be interesting. I'd have to manage most of their games to make OOTP do it, but...it'd be interesting to see how the results would come out.

Overall, if you have a crap roster and are trying to maximize the efficiency of pitchers who might only be able to give you an inning or two of good work at a time, this might work. Especially with a team full of kids that don't know any better and probably don't belong in the majors.

DaddyTorgo

09-04-2007, 08:20 AM

i like how this thread now includes both "switch-pitcher" and "3/3/3 rotation" talk

I think the main problem with the 3/3/3 rotation would of course be pitcher-ego IRL. Who's going to sign there knowing they wouldn't get a chance to get as many wins as a guy on another team when wins are such an important factor in determining future salary (although we all know how much BS that is, i don't foresee a day where a guy with a 5-5 record and a sub-1.0 WHIP makes less than a guy who is 10-0 with a 3.0 WHIP).

As far as lefty/righty pitchers, I think if you had someone that could do it it would be great as it would allow you to pitch them in more situations/innings. It's essentially like having 2 pitchers in one, with the added benefit of them being able to switch back-and-forth during an inning without having to burn a pitching change.

Rizon

09-04-2007, 09:15 AM

I believe Tony LaRussa tried this (or something like it) back during his days with the A's. It didn't work out too well, as I recall, and he abandoned it pretty quickly.

Yup. He was so pissed at how poor his starting pitchers were that he instituted that type of rotation.

Logan

09-04-2007, 11:11 AM

I think this is an interesting enough idea that I might try it with one of the crap teams in one of my dynasties right now. Especially for the salary saving implications, I think it might be interesting. I'd have to manage most of their games to make OOTP do it, but...it'd be interesting to see how the results would come out.

One of the problems with this is that you wouldn't have to deal with the primary hurdle in assembling such a rotation -- finding players that will sign with you knowing that this is what they'll be getting into. But definitely interesting from a strictly statistical perspective.

Young Drachma

09-04-2007, 12:36 PM

One of the problems with this is that you wouldn't have to deal with the primary hurdle in assembling such a rotation -- finding players that will sign with you knowing that this is what they'll be getting into. But definitely interesting from a strictly statistical perspective.

This is very true. I think if I do it, it'll be with a crappy team in an existing dynasty that doesn't have a lot of depth and I'll use retread vets or minor leaguers, that way it simulates what that would be like, rather than top tier talent.

Poli

09-04-2007, 04:06 PM

BishopMVP

09-04-2007, 05:53 PM

I think the main problem with the 3/3/3 rotation would of course be pitcher-ego IRL. Who's going to sign there knowing they wouldn't get a chance to get as many wins as a guy on another team when wins are such an important factor in determining future salary (although we all know how much BS that is, i don't foresee a day where a guy with a 5-5 record and a sub-1.0 WHIP makes less than a guy who is 10-0 with a 3.0 WHIP).Can't you solve part of that problem by rotating which pitcher starts? Or by structuring a contract with incentives based off ERA/WHIP/team wins?

I have the same problem with how teams use their bullpens. I can understand that some closers prefer coming on only in the 9th and knowing their role, but if it's the 8th, you're up 1 and the other teams 3/4/5 is coming up, isn't that a better time to put your closer in than waiting until the next inning?

DaddyTorgo

09-04-2007, 06:22 PM

Can't you solve part of that problem by rotating which pitcher starts? Or by structuring a contract with incentives based off ERA/WHIP/team wins?

I have the same problem with how teams use their bullpens. I can understand that some closers prefer coming on only in the 9th and knowing their role, but if it's the 8th, you're up 1 and the other teams 3/4/5 is coming up, isn't that a better time to put your closer in than waiting until the next inning?

the answer to your question is "yes" of course. It's just it'd be such a departure from the normal that I think you'd be hard-pressed to find an agent who would let a client sign that type of contract.

as a statistical experiment though, it'd certainly be interesting.

Poli

09-04-2007, 07:06 PM

Can't you solve part of that problem by rotating which pitcher starts? Or by structuring a contract with incentives based off ERA/WHIP/team wins?

ERA (though it's virtually a guarantee that none of your pitchers could win the ERA title) and WHIP would be interesting incentives, but I doubt you'd find many players taking a "team win" incentive. Other incentives are going to be very hard to come by...strikeouts, All-Star appearances, things of that nature.

While rotating the start between the three pitchers might actually shake up the save opportunities (which the last pitcher would technically qualify for at times) wins and losses, you're just as likely to have most of your "regular" pitchers unhappy if they end up with 9 or less wins on the year.

dawgfan

09-04-2007, 07:32 PM

Regarding the switch-pitcher idea, in theory it's a great idea. In practice, it's extremely unlikely that a guy could be good enough at switch-pitching to be more effective doing that than just concentrating on pitching with one arm side. It's hard enough to be an effective pitcher, especially at the major-league level. But add in having to worry about developing, perfecting and maintaining mechanics for both arm sides is just too much for any guy to hope for.

That said, it will be interesting to see how this kid from Creighton does in the minors (assuming he gets drafted or signs with an independent league) if he is allowed to switch-pitch. I'm betting the odds are very high against him succeeding from both arm-sides.

clintl

09-04-2007, 09:12 PM

One week's worth of Larussa doing it? No wonder I couldn't remember it.

Chuck Tanner, the Braves manager I believe the article featured, actually used a 3 man rotation in 1972 for most of the year...though his pitchers went longer than 3 innings.

Actually, Tanner was the Chicago White Sox manager at the time, and it wasn't quite a 3-man rotation. But he did start Wilbur Wood on close to a 3-day rotation (Wood got 49 starts in both 1972 and 1973), and went 24-17 in 1972, 24-20 in 1973, and 20-19 in 1974. But Wood was going a lot more than 3 innings, and in addition, he was a knuckleballer.

clintl

09-04-2007, 09:17 PM

Here's the bottom line for me. If you've Johan Santana, you can put him out on the mound for 33 starts a year, and get 7 strong innings out of him almost all the time. That's 231 innings. Or you can start him 54 times on the 3/3/3 schedule and get 162 innings from him. How in the world does the latter idea make any sense?

DaddyTorgo

09-04-2007, 09:24 PM

korme

09-04-2007, 09:27 PM

Because for anyone to actually entertain this idea, they don't have Johan Santana on the roster.

Think more like 11 Brett Tomko's.

Poli

09-04-2007, 09:31 PM

Actually, Tanner was the Chicago White Sox manager at the time, and it wasn't quite a 3-man rotation. But he did start Wilbur Wood on close to a 3-day rotation (Wood got 49 starts in both 1972 and 1973), and went 24-17 in 1972, 24-20 in 1973, and 20-19 in 1974. But Wood was going a lot more than 3 innings, and in addition, he was a knuckleballer.

I realize I wasn't clear on it, but I did know Tanner was the White Sox manager at the time, he ended his career with the Braves...of course.

What I was trying to say was it was Tanner was the former Brave manager who was quoted in the article...which was written shortly after his tenure with the Braves.

Poli

09-04-2007, 09:36 PM

Because for anyone to actually entertain this idea, they don't have Johan Santana on the roster.

Think more like 11 Brett Tomko's.

Or Kip Wells, Anthony Reyes, Todd Wellemeyer, Mike Maroth, Brad Thompson, and Braden Looper.

clintl

09-04-2007, 10:00 PM

This 3-man rotation thing has strangely reminded me of what Dick Williams did one year as manager of the A's when he had a bunch of infielders who were hitting around .200 or worse. In September, when the rosters expanded, he loaded up on these light hitting infielders and some veteran pinch-hitters. He played the infielders at 2B, and every time the 2B spot in the lineup came up, he would send up a pinch hitter. He would go through 4-5 second basemen a game.

st.cronin

09-04-2007, 10:04 PM

The thing that would worry me about the 3 man rotation is that you are willingly putting 3 mediocre pitchers out there. You're vulnerable to one of them having a bad day. It just seems likely to be a disaster.

I'd prefer a return to the 4 man rotation, myself.

korme

09-04-2007, 10:07 PM

Or Kip Wells, Anthony Reyes, Todd Wellemeyer, Mike Maroth, Brad Thompson, and Braden Looper.

Or Matt Belisle, Todd Coffey, Kirk Saarloos, Victor Santos, and Elizardo Ramirez.

clintl

09-04-2007, 10:09 PM

I'd prefer a return to the 4 man rotation, myself.

Me, too. The 4-man rotation was a very good strategy for a very long time, and I'm still baffled about why it was abandoned.

Poli

09-04-2007, 10:17 PM

sterlingice

09-04-2007, 11:06 PM

Or Kip Wells, Anthony Reyes, Todd Wellemeyer, Mike Maroth, Brad Thompson, and Braden Looper.

I'm pretty sure a couple of those guys in the Cards rotation aren't making #5 money unless we're counting $8M per a #5 starter salary.

Or Matt Belisle, Todd Coffey, Kirk Saarloos, Victor Santos, and Elizardo Ramirez.

That's maybe a better example...

SI

IMetTrentGreen

09-05-2007, 12:41 AM

I'm going to start an ootp team with 12 relievers and no starters.

Poli

09-05-2007, 05:34 AM

I'm pretty sure a couple of those guys in the Cards rotation aren't making #5 money unless we're counting $8M per a #5 starter salary.

That's maybe a better example...

SI
I wasn't looking at salaries in my example, but I can see why you might. I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for as a 5th starter money, though. Eleven Tomkos cost just over 44 million.

FTR:

Wells 4 mil
Reyes 392,500
Wellemeyer 635,000
Maroth 2.95 mil
Thompson 400,000
Looper 4.5 mil
Wainwright 410,000

lighthousekeeper

09-05-2007, 08:57 AM

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/04/06/sports/06pitcher.1.600.jpg

Sure the guy might be an effective switch pitcher, but he still looks like he throws like a girl from the left side.

Young Drachma

09-05-2007, 11:33 AM

I'm gonna try it with a MLB team that does a firesale, brings up a bunch of guys who are Quadruple-A quality and see what they can do using that system.

lighthousekeeper

09-05-2007, 12:37 PM

I'm gonna try it with a MLB team that does a firesale, brings up a bunch of guys who are Quadruple-A quality and see what they can do using that system.

you own an MLB team!? which one? can you hire me as 'Head Statistician' or 'Shortstop' or something like that?

Young Drachma

09-05-2007, 01:34 PM

you own an MLB team!? which one? can you hire me as 'Head Statistician' or 'Shortstop' or something like that?

:)

Someday maybe.

Anyway...I've run it for a week so far with an OOTP team, using the 3/3/3 setup and I find that it's not just inefficient, but with bad pitchers, they get lit up so often that keeping them in 3 innings was problematic at best.

I think that the logic employed on this thread about it, pretty much proves it DOA. I think if you deliberately went out and got a host of good relievers and did it, it might work better. But they'd essentially have to get paid to do more work than they normally do. And again, you open yourself up to getting just torched.

So I stopped.

Fidatelo

09-05-2007, 02:06 PM

I think a switch-pitcher would be cool from a longevity/injury standpoint. If used as a regular pitcher his arms would have half the wear, which should reduce fatigue, increase effectiveness, and decrease the chance of injury. Furthermore, if he does injure one arm, perhaps he can still pitch with the other during the healing process?