Job Searching

[Warhammer]

Does anyone have any good tips for searching for jobs? I've never been in a position where I had to look for a job before, I'm used to the opportunities coming to me. I've applied a number of places online, but it seems that most of these just go into an empty hole.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I'm wondering the same thing.

[jackyl]

Use an industry-specific recruiter if possible.

[lordscarlet]

I hate recruiters. I would try monster, craigslist, any large local papers and maybe dice. Although friends and monster are the only ones that have ever been successful for me (craigslist was not around when I last lookef ro a job)

[Warhammer]

Use an industry-specific recruiter if possible.

That's part of what the trouble is. I am in sales. What I would love to do is switch sales industries. The problem is that I don't have an engineering degree (I have 3 years worth of courses though, long story) which is necessary for most industrial/techinical sales positions (which you don't need for most positions, you just need to understand the systems in which the product fits).

[jackyl]

I hate recruiters. I would try monster, craigslist, any large local papers and maybe dice. Although friends and monster are the only ones that have ever been successful for me (craigslist was not around when I last lookef ro a job)

If you use monster / careerbuilder / hotjobs or the paper, you are competing against the entire viewing public, and so many unqualified people apply for online job listings these days that the odds of being lost in the shuffle are very high. Recruiters are given specific parameters to stay in for the most part and have a direct contact they can telephone or meet in person on your behalf. Most companies that post positions on job boards use a separate email account to handle the sheer volume of resumes received until the ad expires, and they're sorted by keyword when actually reviewed.

Why do they even bother posting ads, you ask? Most are seeking instant gratification and will get their best responses the first 18-24 hours the ad is posted, with the amount of search agents and RSS-style feeds available to job seekers.

[lordscarlet]

If you use monster / careerbuilder / hotjobs or the paper, you are competing against the entire viewing public, and so many unqualified people apply for online job listings these days that the odds of being lost in the shuffle are very high. Recruiters are given specific parameters to stay in for the most part and have a direct contact they can telephone or meet in person on your behalf. Most companies that post positions on job boards use a separate email account to handle the sheer volume of resumes received until the ad expires, and they're sorted by keyword when actually reviewed.

Why do they even bother posting ads, you ask? Most are seeking instant gratification and will get their best responses the first 18-24 hours the ad is posted, with the amount of search agents and RSS-style feeds available to job seekers.

Recruiters are a joke. They have a bullet list of buzzwords that mean nothing. You sound like you must be a recruiter. They are a complete waste of time, and a complete waste of money. You have to renegotiate your salary and restart your benefits 6 months in, and most of the companies that you would work for are also working through job boards.

As I'm sure everyone would agree, the best way is to find someone you know at a company looking to fill a position you are interested in.

[CraigSca]

I've been using everything I can - networking, job sites, recruiters.

Most of the good jobs are via recruiters, but I've actually gotten some bites via the major websites as well (though nothing has panned out as of yet).

Do you know anyone working for a company that you'd like to work for? The absolute best way to find a job and get your foot in the door is through someone you already know.

[CraigSca]

They are a complete waste of time, and a complete waste of money. You have to renegotiate your salary and restart your benefits 6 months in, and most of the companies that you would work for are also working through job boards.

I've had good recruiters, and I've had bad ones.

Couple of questions for you though - 1) what do you mean by a complete waste of money? 2) why do you have to renegotiate your salary 6 months in? This makes no sense to me.

[MikeVic]

I got my current job by replying to an ad in the paper...

[jackyl]

Recruiters are a joke. They have a bullet list of buzzwords that mean nothing. You sound like you must be a recruiter. They are a complete waste of time, and a complete waste of money. You have to renegotiate your salary and restart your benefits 6 months in, and most of the companies that you would work for are also working through job boards.

As I'm sure everyone would agree, the best way is to find someone you know at a company looking to fill a position you are interested in.

If you're going to blindly trust someone to negotiate your package with a prospective employer, you get what you deserve. And yes, I do recruiting and consulting work.

My bullet list is quite nice, actually.

[lordscarlet]

I've had good recruiters, and I've had bad ones.

Couple of questions for you though - 1) what do you mean by a complete waste of money? 2) why do you have to renegotiate your salary 6 months in? This makes no sense to me.

1) For the company. They pay a large premium for you to come in via a recruiter. If you make $50k, they're probably paying at least $10k on top of that.

2) Because, any situation I've been aware of, you work for the recruiter for 6 months before being a full time employee. So you're being paid by the staffing company for 6 months, then if the company you're actually doing work for wants to keep you, you have to negotiate a salary and finally start to get benefits.

[lordscarlet]

If you're going to blindly trust someone to negotiate your package with a prospective employer, you get what you deserve. And yes, I do recruiting and consulting work.

My bullet list is quite nice, actually.

I'm not, that's why I don't use recruiters.

I figured you did. :)

Most (but not all) recruiters are completely ignorant about the job they are hiring for. This is why you see people with 10 page long resumes with every minute detail. They need to make sure the recruiter's search makes a hit on their resume. And if, say, this is a ASP.NET programming job. If I don't have "HTML" on my resume, some recruiters will think I am not qualified because they have no idea what they're hiring for.

[CraigSca]

1) For the company. They pay a large premium for you to come in via a recruiter. If you make $50k, they're probably paying at least $10k on top of that.

2) Because, any situation I've been aware of, you work for the recruiter for 6 months before being a full time employee. So you're being paid by the staffing company for 6 months, then if the company you're actually doing work for wants to keep you, you have to negotiate a salary and finally start to get benefits.

I understand #1, but have never seen #2. Everytime I've worked through a recruiter you're a fulltime employee upfront.

[CU Tiger]

This is the #1 key to me.
When you apply online, via fax whatever.

CALL,CALL,CALL

Search the web find out who would bee hiring you.
If its a large company walk in the Front Door and ask the receptionist, then call back and ask for them. You are in sales, you can present yourself.

But you have to FORCE your way in front of the hiring person.
If you put them off with your agressiveness (not likely in sales, if you are tenacious chasing a job you will be tenacious chasing a deal) so be it.

And my final piece of advice. Make finding a new job your job. Wake up early like you are going to work. Leave the house, like going to a job,and hit the streets like working. It keeps you in the groove and looking desireable.

I have one current project manager in my electrical company, that had a great resume, came highly recommended by 2 friends, and I knew why he was out of work (company went under) problem was it was 3 months between his lay off and my search for a PM. When he came in his confidence was shattered, he just had a beaten aire to him.

I brushed him off and never thought about him again. A week later a friend (another contractor) mentioned his name in conversation and remarked how they had worked together and how he wished he had a spot for the guy. So I doubted myslef and called him back, due to a scheduling deal I had to make the interview at 7:30AM, just that change woke him up and I actually took him with me to a jobsite, walked it with him and hired him on the spot and have NEVER regretted it. But the key was when he was coming in at 10 he was just ho humming, and looked lethargic and disinterested.

You have to stay in your routine.

[CU Tiger]

I understand #1, but have never seen #2. Everytime I've worked through a recruiter you're a fulltime employee upfront.

Dola,
I think there are 2 different things at play here.

I have used a placement company (labor finders, etc.) to find me workers (bleh) and they do the work for them routine. Where I pay the staffing company and they pay the worker.

That is a staffing company. A professional recruiter is nothing like that.
They have a deal with the employer where thee employer pays a 1 time fee for their locating services (ok actually usually a 3 part fee, 1 if the guy makes it 30 days, 1 at 90 and 1 at a year) These the employee works for the company day 1.

And they cater to professionals more so than staffing agencies.

[Warhammer]

I haven't lost my job yet, but the company I work for is going down the tubes. I'm trying to be proactive in my search so that I have something lined up before things go kaput.

[CraigSca]

Hey, join the club! I did the same thing and "thought" I had a long runway...

Surprise, surprise, I was laid off (I have a thread here somewhere).

Whatever you do, don't be the guy without a chair when the music stops.

[wade moore]

1) For the company. They pay a large premium for you to come in via a recruiter. If you make $50k, they're probably paying at least $10k on top of that.

2) Because, any situation I've been aware of, you work for the recruiter for 6 months before being a full time employee. So you're being paid by the staffing company for 6 months, then if the company you're actually doing work for wants to keep you, you have to negotiate a salary and finally start to get benefits.
Yeah, I tried to tell you this before - your #2 is not necessarily the norm. And you have heard of a situation where this doesn't happen, the job I have now.

[molson]

If you know someone is hiring (either now, or perpetually), sometimes it helps to figure out someone else to send your resume/cover letter to, rather than "Human Resources" (ideally, someone who's happiness will benefit if they hire you). If that person likes what they see, they may refer it to the Human Resources department, but with a "hey, I like this guy, make sure he gets an interview".

Worked for me once.

[MikeVic]

Yeah, I tried to tell you this before - your #2 is not necessarily the norm. And you have heard of a situation where this doesn't happen, the job I have now.

Settle down boys.

[JHandley]

1) For the company. They pay a large premium for you to come in via a recruiter. If you make $50k, they're probably paying at least $10k on top of that.

2) Because, any situation I've been aware of, you work for the recruiter for 6 months before being a full time employee. So you're being paid by the staffing company for 6 months, then if the company you're actually doing work for wants to keep you, you have to negotiate a salary and finally start to get benefits.

I couldn't figure out where this hatred of recruiters came from until I read this post. You're talking about an employment agency. Recruiters are a completely different animal. My father is a very successful recruiter in the accounting industry, I know it inside and out. Employment agencies typically are temp-to-hire and yes, then you do work for them before working for the company.

For recruiters:
1) Going rate is about 15-20% of the first year of the employee's salary. This means the recruiter has a vested interest in getting you as much money as possible. Their fee is tied directly to how much you make. At this point, you still have to agree to the job offer, so it's not like you're tied to whatever the recruiter gets. If you want to take a whack at it, feel free.

2) This is tied to your confusion between the two different types of services. The employment agency is a glorified temp service. They want you on their payroll so that if you're no good at this job, they can move you into a different one. They play the numbers game.

A recruiter is a professional service. Under no circumstances does a recruiter want you on his payroll. That's not what he's selling to the hiring company. He's selling a pre-screened group of qualified canidates. He's selling his expertise in the selected industry. He wants you to be good at the job so that he'll get more referrals from the company and more job openings from that company.

Push people away from employment agencies. However, recruiters are a very good way to go to get good looks from companies.

[lordscarlet]

I think the difference may be in the industries. I know of virtually no one in the technology field that uses a "recruiter". But it is flooded with "employment agencies" that call you based on your listed qualifications, or who are posting to job boards masked as real companies.

And I still think 10-20% of your first year's salary is absurd.

[JHandley]

I think the difference may be in the industries. I know of virtually no one in the technology field that uses a "recruiter". But it is flooded with "employment agencies" that call you based on your listed qualifications, or who are posting to job boards masked as real companies.


Possibly. Certainly for consulting work. It's also possible that it's a regional thing. The tech industry is notorious for nomad employees. When a company uses a recruiter, they want an employee who's in for the long haul, not someone who's gonna jump in a year or two.


And I still think 10-20% of your first year's salary is absurd.

Hiring isn't cheap. Throw in the money spent on using your HR department to weed through the hundreds of unqualified employees and it can easily reach 10-20% of the employees first year's salary.

[lordscarlet]

Hiring isn't cheap. Throw in the money spent on using your HR department to weed through the hundreds of unqualified employees and it can easily reach 10-20% of the employees first year's salary.

Thus why I want to do it myself and not use a recruiter. (as a potential employee) :)

[JHandley]

Thus why I want to do it myself and not use a recruiter. (as a potential employee) :)

Fair enough, but keep in mind the company is paying 10-20% regardless of how you get the job.

[lordscarlet]

Fair enough, but keep in mind the company is paying 10-20% regardless of how you get the job.

I think you overestimate the effort most tech companies put into hiring. ;)

[JHandley]

I think you overestimate the effort most tech companies put into hiring. ;)

Having worked in IT for the better part of 10 years, you make a very valid point ;)

[lordscarlet]

Having worked in IT for the better part of 10 years, you make a very valid point ;)

Really I should say, you overestimate how much effort (and money) they put into HR. :) We have one HR employee and when we are hiring she sends us a few resumes from Monster, and that's about it.

[JHandley]

And I know how many placements a recruiter can make in a month. Believe it or not, there really are a large number of companies who make hiring good employees a priority. The ones that do will spend the money neccessary to get those people.

Which would you rather work for?

[lordscarlet]

Well, since my company is so small it has worked. We interview potential employees and HR is pretty much out of the loop. I work with a bunch of great people, but that's largely from a combination of luck and personal referrals.

Having said that, I would love to learn python and go work for Google. :)

[JHandley]

I guess my point was rather, as a prospective employee, which sounds like it would be a better situation: A company that puts money into hiring people or a company who found you off Monster because you hit a few triggers?

I'm not trying to change your mind on this. And you make a very good point that small companies cannot afford to put money into hiring, either HR or recruiters. A lot of very good employees prefer small companies. So, it's possible to find yourself a good situation that way as well.

In the end, what I'm really getting at is that when you're looking for a new job, why cut yourself off from any opportunity? Just because you've given your resume to a recruiter doesn't mean you can't keep looking on your own. But, by neglecting that aspect of the hiring process, you may be missing opportunities that only a recruiter can find because only the recruiter has access to it.

[lordscarlet]

I guess my point was rather, as a prospective employee, which sounds like it would be a better situation: A company that puts money into hiring people or a company who found you off Monster because you hit a few triggers?

I'm not trying to change your mind on this. And you make a very good point that small companies cannot afford to put money into hiring, either HR or recruiters. A lot of very good employees prefer small companies. So, it's possible to find yourself a good situation that way as well.

In the end, what I'm really getting at is that when you're looking for a new job, why cut yourself off from any opportunity? Just because you've given your resume to a recruiter doesn't mean you can't keep looking on your own. But, by neglecting that aspect of the hiring process, you may be missing opportunities that only a recruiter can find because only the recruiter has access to it.

I seem to have come off in the wrong way. I'm saying I agree with you, but we have gotten lucky enough here that things have worked out.

On the point about giving your resume to a recruiter, I've just never heard of that in the IT field. I guess, listening to people here, it does happen, I've just never known anyone to do it. I've heard of people getting contacted by a recruiter regarding a specific position, or vice versa (as in Wade's case), but never where someone calls Recruiter Jim-Bob and says, "Hey, Jim-Bob. I want a job doing .NET application development, can you find me something?"

Maybe this is just my ignorance and lack of exposure, but I don't know.

[JHandley]

I seem to have come off in the wrong way. I'm saying I agree with you, but we have gotten lucky enough here that things have worked out.


I was agreeing with you as well. It is possible to find a good situation without using a recruiter.



... but never where someone calls Recruiter Jim-Bob and says, "Hey, Jim-Bob. I want a job doing .NET application development, can you find me something?"



That's exactly what Warhammer would be doing.

[JHandley]

Dola-

I may be coming off as more defensive or combative in this thread than I intend to as well. I'm not arguing against you as much as I'm arguing the point of, if someone is in the position of looking for a new job, why would they want to close off any opportunity to find that new job?

[CraigSca]

I just have to say, I hate the job search. 4 interviews in the last two weeks with one company, and two interviews with another company - and now the inevitable waiting. Tick...tock....tick...tock.

[lordscarlet]

I just have to say, I hate the job search. 4 interviews in the last two weeks with one company, and two interviews with another company - and now the inevitable waiting. Tick...tock....tick...tock.

Good luck! (And the same to the rest looking for jobs)

If anyone is interested in being a "content developer" for a government agency website and working in DC, let me know. :)

[Warhammer]

I love filling out applications that have this question:

"Do you have any documentation that shows you placing in the top 25% of sales?"

[jackyl]

And I know how many placements a recruiter can make in a month. Believe it or not, there really are a large number of companies who make hiring good employees a priority. The ones that do will spend the money neccessary to get those people.

Which would you rather work for?

Most of my clients (but not all, unfortunately) are great places to work because they do make an honest effort bringing in the best people they possibly can. Far too many places cheap it out instead, dredging through a bunch of miserable people on Monster whose resumes are all fluff anyway.

Highly paid, happy, motivated people don't quit every eighteen months in my line of recruiting. And they're not on the market constantly like other people in a passive attempt to find greener grass. Pretty much the only use I have for my firm's Monster account is to cold call people listed as references that I want to try and build a relationship with.

I understand the recruiter hatred. I can't tell you how many times I've had a candidate tell me about the last guy he worked with making empty promises and throwing his resume to a bunch of places that he wasn't interested in working for like spaghetti on a kitchen wall. But not all of us are like that. I'm very selective because my good name's on the line as well as the candidates.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Most of my clients (but not all, unfortunately) are great places to work because they do make an honest effort bringing in the best people they possibly can. Far too many places cheap it out instead, dredging through a bunch of miserable people on Monster whose resumes are all fluff anyway.

Highly paid, happy, motivated people don't quit every eighteen months in my line of recruiting. And they're not on the market constantly like other people in a passive attempt to find greener grass. Pretty much the only use I have for my firm's Monster account is to cold call people listed as references that I want to try and build a relationship with.

I understand the recruiter hatred. I can't tell you how many times I've had a candidate tell me about the last guy he worked with making empty promises and throwing his resume to a bunch of places that he wasn't interested in working for like spaghetti on a kitchen wall. But not all of us are like that. I'm very selective because my good name's on the line as well as the candidates.
I'm sold. Can you hook me up??