Amazing article

[Draft Dodger]

http://www.mensjournal.com/feature/M162/M162_CasualtiesoftheNFL.html

I've seen stuff before about how bad former NFL players have it, and how little the NFLPA is helping them. This article simply blew me away; it's incredibly sad and scary.

it's a long article, but well worth the read. probably the part that made my jaw drop the most was the "concussion drills" where players learned how to play while disoriented from a big hit.

[Anthony]

so? who cares? when america was building railroads through mountains hundreds if not thousands died in the process. people do what they have to do. history is filled with stories of workers getting manipulated by management.

[cartman]

so? who cares? when america was building railroads through mountains hundreds if not thousands died in the process. people do what they have to do. history is filled with stories of workers getting manipulated by management.

But the NFLPA isn't management, it is a union. Unions were formed to try and keep management from manipulating folks like in the examples you supplied.

[Anthony]

pro sports are played by people who don't have the skills to work in the real world. being a pro athlete is not a real world job. so we're talking about people who got paid, quite handsomely, mind you, even for the era back then, to play a game. it's not called "work a game". players don't complain about "worktime". they want more "playing time". they've coasted through college while other people had to actually study, and coasted for no reason other than they were big, strong and fast. other than the battlefield i can't think of many other places where those traits really come into play. so now they want to be compensated for a career they're retired from? video game developers during the early 80's worked in an industry that doesn't have the profits that it does now. are they due money cuz the industry they helped create and pave is now very profitable?

you keep hearing about all these players being hurt, but not one of them says they walked away from the game when they were hurt. it's always they went back in the game. why? because, as i pointed out, they understood that outside of football they didn't have any real marketable skills to get an actual job. and for that, they have no one else to blame. if i don't like my job, and i don't, i can walk away and feel safe knowing the next job isn't far behind. i have skills that are in demand. i don't make millions like a pro football player does, but there's a ying and yang to everything.

don't cry for me, Argentina.

[Young Drachma]

I think it's not a big secret that the NFLPA is the worst of the major pro sports unions.

[oliegirl]

I read the whole article, and am torn on how I feel. On one hand, these guys and their families are getting screwed by the NFLPA, there is no doubt about that. However, as someone who is anti-union in general, I have to take into consideration the fact that they voted this union into power...if they didn't insist upon certain things being completely clear and untouchable, then that is kind of their own fault. Also, that they didn't put a time limit on the NFLPA and say it would go up for "renewal" after a certain period of time, again, it's partially their fault.

On the other hand, I kind of think that these guys did this to themselves...allowing doctors to numb them on the sideline and then going back into a game with a concussion, broken ribs, broken legs, etc? I have a hard time having sympathy for someone who at least in part, caused their own problem. At some point, these guys should have said "enough is enough". I have a hard time believing they were hurting for money, it seems that greed/pride had at least some role in them staying for as long as they did and continuing to allow themselves to be beat up the way they were with poor medical treatment.

[johnnyshaka]

pro sports are played by people who don't have the skills to work in the real world. being a pro athlete is not a real world job. so we're talking about people who got paid, quite handsomely, mind you, even for the era back then, to play a game. it's not called "work a game". players don't complain about "worktime". they want more "playing time". they've coasted through college while other people had to actually study, and coasted for no reason other than they were big, strong and fast. other than the battlefield i can't think of many other places where those traits really come into play. so now they want to be compensated for a career they're retired from? video game developers during the early 80's worked in an industry that doesn't have the profits that it does now. are they due money cuz the industry they helped create and pave is now very profitable?

you keep hearing about all these players being hurt, but not one of them says they walked away from the game when they were hurt. it's always they went back in the game. why? because, as i pointed out, they understood that outside of football they didn't have any real marketable skills to get an actual job. and for that, they have no one else to blame. if i don't like my job, and i don't, i can walk away and feel safe knowing the next job isn't far behind. i have skills that are in demand. i don't make millions like a pro football player does, but there's a ying and yang to everything.

don't cry for me, Argentina.

So, if you get injured at your current job and as a result will never be able to work in the same profession again you wouldn't expect your union to compensate you? To add insult to injury, as a result of your injuries you can barely function as a human being let alone get re-trained or apply a skill you learned several years ago to make a living. Does that seem fair?

I don't feel sorry for pro athletes as they are getting paid for something they love to do but when they aren't taken care of after we've exploited them for millions...sometimes, billions...then that is a very different story.

[oliegirl]

What about a case like Muhammed Ali? Where his injuries in the ring were a direct cause of his condition today...yet I haven't heard anything about him suing the boxing commission or anything like that to get benefits. I know it's not the exact same thing, but I think it's close enough to make the comparison...

[gstelmack]

There has been other evidence presented that in fact the Union is handing out millions to these guys, and that many of them are just throwing that money away. TMQ had a great article on this a few weeks back, analyzing what's going on and where the union does a good vs. a poor job.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/070807#nflpa

[thesloppy]

What about a case like Muhammed Ali? Where his injuries in the ring were a direct cause of his condition today...yet I haven't heard anything about him suing the boxing commission or anything like that to get benefits. I know it's not the exact same thing, but I think it's close enough to make the comparison...

Boxing is really hard to relate to any other sport. There's no single governing body (oh GOD how we all wish there was), every state has a different set of comission and rules, and boxers would be more analogous to independent contractors since they sign a new contract before each and every fight, as opposed to NFL players who I believe are all technically employees of the NFL for the tenure of their career. While I suppose it might be possible for a boxer to sue someone for his injuries, since each fight is going to involve a different state commission, a different boxing federation, and a different promoter, so the burden would be on the boxer to prove that not only were his injuries a result of boxing, but that they were the result of a specific bout.

[Hammer755]

Arguments about athletes 'playing a game' or 'doing it because they love it' are sheer baloney. I played army when I was a kid, and I played doctor when I was a kid (:cool:), and I played with Tonka trucks when I was a kid. But people don't say that going into the military or medicine or truck driving is 'just a game'.

These guys work hard, and a lot of them do get paid a ton of money, but it doesn't diminish the amount of time & effort that goes into being a professional athlete. It's not just a game, and most of them aren't doing it because they love it. It is their job and they should be protected the same way that you or I am protected.

I've read articles like the one gmelstack referenced that say the PA is probably doing more than the general public thinks, but to write these old-timers off because they got to play a game that any one of us would have loved to is just dumb.

[oliegirl]

Boxing is really hard to relate to any other sport. There's no single governing body (oh GOD how we all wish there was), every state has a different set of comission and rules, and boxers would be more analogous to independent contractors since they sign a new contract before each and every fight, as opposed to NFL players who I believe are all technically employees of the NFL for the tenure of their career. While I suppose it might be possible for a boxer to sue someone for his injuries, since each fight is going to involve a different state commission, a different boxing federation, and a different promoter, so the burden would be on the boxer to prove that not only were his injuries a result of boxing, but that they were the result of a specific bout.


Right...I get all that, I guess what I was trying to say is that Ali hasn't sued the Nevada Gaming Commission - who I think is the governing body over Vegas fights, could be wrong on that though - and said "you shouldn't have allowed me to fight b/c I'd had x number of concussions and had the following symptoms". It just seems like these players are trying to push the responsibility for their actions/decisions off on someone else rather than taking the blame for making really really poor choices regarding their health/body.

Please note that in my original post in this thread I said that I was torn and did feel sorry for these guys b/c they were clearly getting screwed by the NFLPA...

[Anthony]

it's called life decisions. their decision to play a brutal sport. their decision to go back on the field. their decision to not aquire marketable skills to provide for life after pro football. now that the league is doing great they want more handouts? what happened to all the money these guys made when they played the game? sure, insurance and medical bills were probably outlandish, but you then have to say "the costs to play this game are greater than what i'll wind up with at the end of the day. this isn't for me". i can't afford to work where i'm at any longer, i took a paycut to come here. it's now my decision to start thinking about the next step. i'm responsible for my own decisions.

[oliegirl]

it's called life decisions. their decision to play a brutal sport. their decision to go back on the field. their decision to not aquire marketable skills to provide for life after pro football. now that the league is doing great they want more handouts? what happened to all the money these guys made when they played the game? sure, insurance and medical bills were probably outlandish, but you then have to say "the costs to play this game are greater than what i'll wind up with at the end of the day. this isn't for me". i can't afford to work where i'm at any longer, i took a paycut to come here. it's now my decision to start thinking about the next step. i'm responsible for my own decisions.


It's a scary day when I agree with HA...I feel like I need a shower now.

[spleen1015]

Where is all of the money DeMarco made while he was playing?

A quick google search shows that he made at least 4 million dollars.

[Bubba Wheels]

Modern day gladiators. Bread and Circuses.

[thesloppy]

I can somewhat agree with those saying that this is an issue of personal responsibility, but what about the specific case of a concussion. If you've been concussed (and lemme tell you, it is a good time), are you still 100% responsible for your own decisons? If your mental state is such that you can't remember your name, or what city your in, but a team doctor and a coach tell you to go back into the game, is that still a question of personal responsibility? What if a player is so full of painkillers that they can't adequately assess their own physical condition?

While I agree that none of these things should completely absolve a player for making stupid decisions with their own body, I think there are plenty of cases where it could be argued that the decision was not entirely personal. Surely, the decision to pursue a violent sport IS a personal decision, but that's kind of a slippery slope, isn't it?

[oliegirl]

I can somewhat agree with those saying that this is an issue of personal responsibility, but what about the specific case of a concussion. If you've been concussed (and lemme tell you, it is a good time), are you still 100% responsible for your own decisons? If your mental state is such that you can't remember your name, or what city your in, but a team doctor and a coach tell you to go back into the game, is that still a question of personal responsibility? What if a player is so full of painkillers that they can't adequately assess their own physical condition?

While I agree that none of these things should completely absolve a player for making stupid decisions with their own body, I think there are plenty of cases where it could be argued that the decision was not entirely personal. Surely, the decision to pursue a violent sport IS a personal decision, but that's kind of a slippery slope, isn't it?

I'm willing to bed a little on the concussion thing for the reasons you stated, but if I recall correctly, only one of the examples in the article was "only concussion" injuries...the rest all recollected being told things and shot full of painkillers and being "sent" back on the field...that is where my problem with the logic is...

[thesloppy]

I'm willing to bed a little on the concussion thing for the reasons you stated, but if I recall correctly, only one of the examples in the article was "only concussion" injuries...the rest all recollected being told things and shot full of painkillers and being "sent" back on the field...that is where my problem with the logic is...

Yeah, it's hard to argue that someone with their ribs sticking out of their side shouldn't know better than to run right back into play. It's interesting that the writer probably chose to expound upon the most sensational injuries and stories for the article, thinking that it would endear the reader to the players' side of the argument, but it appears to have done the opposite.

[Bubba Wheels]

Expect this topic to get much bigger in the future. Mike Ditka is in the forefront of wanting more exposure/compensation for retired players with long-term football related injuries. And most retired players have them.

[Noop]

I hope they find a solution to this problem.

[JHandley]

I thought this story got put to bed when Upshaw tore apart the guy who claimed he wasn't getting anything from the union?

[Icy]

I feel bad knowing the personal issues, the pain the must suffer etc and i would feel really bad sitting and talking with them and listening to their battles...

But here, right now, reading that article with a cold brain, i can only think:

So you earned $4M, burned them in a huge house, parties, jewelry, cars, maybe even drugs or any other unnecessary stuff and now you want us to feel sorry about you because you worked on what you wanted to do it and wasted all your money instead of investing or saving it?

Ok you "poor guy", head on now to an iron factory, watch the workers there working inside the factory in Summer, listen from the doctors that those guys have huge breathing issues, a burned skin, etc and that they do that every fucking day to be able to feed their families. That they never had a chance to save a $ because they were always in debts, not able to even own their own house or car, etc.

Now tell me again how a crap life you had and how i must feel sorry about watching you playing the sport you like while you were earning millions for doing it and being like a god everywhere you went those days.

I feel sorry that they were hurt or disabled as nobody deserves that, but i can't feel sorry about them wasting their millions $ and becoming poor. I doubt they really expended all those $ only because their health issues.

If i feel sorry about somebody related to the sport, is about the kids not good enough to reach the NFL who are pushed by their parents, coaches, college fans etc with the fake dream of becoming pro, neglecting their studies and wasting their scholarship because they are being told all the time that are so good and won't ever need those studies. Then they are not drafted, and all the sudden they are nobodies again, without studies because a wasted scholarship, with a crap standard life awaiting for them, after they were fooled to think they would be one of those high paid gods.

[Icy]

Dola, forgot to say this:

I talked about the players, but now about the team doctors and coaches that force the players to come back to the field when they shouldn't, injecting painkillers to fool their pain for a few minutes to end the game at the risk of suffering worse injuries. They all should be sued by the players like every worker can sue his boss or company for forcing him to do a dangerous work and getting hurt while doing it.

[Crapshoot]

Arguments about athletes 'playing a game' or 'doing it because they love it' are sheer baloney. I played army when I was a kid, and I played doctor when I was a kid (:cool:), and I played with Tonka trucks when I was a kid. But people don't say that going into the military or medicine or truck driving is 'just a game'.

These guys work hard, and a lot of them do get paid a ton of money, but it doesn't diminish the amount of time & effort that goes into being a professional athlete. It's not just a game, and most of them aren't doing it because they love it. It is their job and they should be protected the same way that you or I am protected.

I've read articles like the one gmelstack referenced that say the PA is probably doing more than the general public thinks, but to write these old-timers off because they got to play a game that any one of us would have loved to is just dumb.

I agree completely, even while disagreeing with the premise that the NFLPA owes them more. To be bluntly honest, the NFL simply wasn't the mega-million extravaganza it is now then, and they are being commiserate to what the value was at that time.

On a secondary note, the next idiot who insists that players should take less money for the "love of the game" ought to volunteer his paycheck "for the love of systems management." The expectation that these players should abandon their fiscal interest because it offends your sensibilities is idiocy of the highest order.

[Buccaneer]

Many of you gladly and gleefully shower the gladiators with riches and you expect them to be endure whatever pain and sacrifices for your entertainment and instant gratifications. You can't have it both ways.

[molson]

Many of you gladly and gleefully shower the gladiators with riches and you expect them to be endure whatever pain and sacrifices for your entertainment and instant gratifications. You can't have it both ways.

I don't see how those two things are related.

Why can't I shower the gladiators with riches but still expect them endure the sacrifices for the career choice they made and union they joined?

[st.cronin]

I really have a hard time caring about this at all.

[spleen1015]

I can see the argument when they are talking about players that played before 1980. The issue I have with these stories is they choose to highlight guys that made a lot of money.

They say they want the NFLPA to give them a retirement fund. Well, guess what Brian DeMarco, they did. You just chose to spend it before you retired.

[Anthony]

Many of you gladly and gleefully shower the gladiators with riches and you expect them to be endure whatever pain and sacrifices for your entertainment and instant gratifications. You can't have it both ways.

the times that we live in now, with all the possibilities for entertainment, if it wasn't football i was contributing money to it'd be something else. and i don't think buying a jersey and/or a madden game once a year really contributes anything to anybody, no one is putting their kids through college via my money that i spend on the sport.

[Schmidty]

Regardless of the cynicism and over-thinking here (right or wrong), it's always hard for me to "turn my back" on people suffering and in pain.

*shurg*

[Vinatieri for Prez]

it's called life decisions. their decision to play a brutal sport. their decision to go back on the field. their decision to not aquire marketable skills to provide for life after pro football. now that the league is doing great they want more handouts? what happened to all the money these guys made when they played the game? sure, insurance and medical bills were probably outlandish, but you then have to say "the costs to play this game are greater than what i'll wind up with at the end of the day. this isn't for me". i can't afford to work where i'm at any longer, i took a paycut to come here. it's now my decision to start thinking about the next step. i'm responsible for my own decisions.

Like Oliegirl, I agree with the above statement. I have very little if any sympathy for people who with open eyes played a brutal sport and did not plan for the future, including potential disabling injuries.

By the way, there are other players out there who have invested and saved wisely for their futures. That should be expected norm. And if you're in a union (and you were one of those players who planned properly), I wouldn't be all that interested in charity handouts to those players that didn't.

[spleen1015]

Instead of setting up retirements funds for today's players, the NFLPA should be teaching them how to get mileage out of their money.

[Swaggs]

I feel worse much worse for folks like coal miners (although their union is obviously very strong now, it wasn't always), mechanics, roofers, and other construction workers, who go through grueling physical work each day and do not get anywhere near the same money or adoration.

[st.cronin]

I feel worse much worse for folks like coal miners (although their union is obviously very strong now, it wasn't always), mechanics, roofers, and other construction workers, who go through grueling physical work each day and do not get anywhere near the same money or adoration.

+1

[Atocep]

I'm supposed to feel sorry for people that got a free education at a top college because they can play a sport well? Guys that could have used that education to make sure they have life skills and won't waste their money within a couple years of being out of the league.

There is nothing that says as soon as you get your first signing bonus that you have to immediately run out and buy house and a new car. The fact that these guys do it and then when their money runs out ask for handouts goes to show that these are people that don't understand what real life is like because they've been coddled their entire lives.

When Ditka tried to use Demarco's story, the NFLPA jumped on it because he's a guy that did make at least $4 million during during his playing days and after he retired he failed to fill out the paperwork to get disability.

We feel sorry for the people that made a lot of money when they played and are broke now but we don't ever think about those that are dealing with similar issues after working in factories or were in the military for years making small fractions of what these guys made and don't have the benefit of using people like Ditka to tell their story.

[miami_fan]

Interesting comments in light of the Everett injury.

[MikeVic]

I'm supposed to feel sorry for people that got a free education at a top college because they can play a sport well? Guys that could have used that education to make sure they have life skills and won't waste their money within a couple years of being out of the league.

There is nothing that says as soon as you get your first signing bonus that you have to immediately run out and buy house and a new car. The fact that these guys do it and then when their money runs out ask for handouts goes to show that these are people that don't understand what real life is like because they've been coddled their entire lives.

When Ditka tried to use Demarco's story, the NFLPA jumped on it because he's a guy that did make at least $4 million during during his playing days and after he retired he failed to fill out the paperwork to get disability.

We feel sorry for the people that made a lot of money when they played and are broke now but we don't ever think about those that are dealing with similar issues after working in factories or were in the military for years making small fractions of what these guys made and don't have the benefit of using people like Ditka to tell their story.

I don't know where I stand on this whole debate yet, but you're telling me if you got a few hundred thousand to a few million guaranteed right this second, you wouldn't go out and buy at least a house?

[Warhammer]

I don't know where I stand on this whole debate yet, but you're telling me if you got a few hundred thousand to a few million guaranteed right this second, you wouldn't go out and buy at least a house?

That'd be the first thing I did. But, it wouldn't be a completely decked out house, something more modest.

[oliegirl]

Regardless of the cynicism and over-thinking here (right or wrong), it's always hard for me to "turn my back" on people suffering and in pain.

*shurg*

I never said that I was "turning my back" on any of them, I would probably donate to their cause if I was in a different financial situation - I even made it a point to say in both of my posts that I did have sympathy for them b/c it's obvious the NFLPA is screwing them; but I feel that they should take some ownership of the mistakes they made that helped to put them in the situation they are in.

[spleen1015]

I don't know where I stand on this whole debate yet, but you're telling me if you got a few hundred thousand to a few million guaranteed right this second, you wouldn't go out and buy at least a house?

I would pay off the house that I currently live in and get myself out of debt. I would invest the rest hoping to live of off the interest so that I could play WoW all day.

[Atocep]

That'd be the first thing I did. But, it wouldn't be a completely decked out house, something more modest.

Exactly.

Lance Briggs spent this offeseason whining about needing financial security because of the dangers of the NFL and then goes out and crashes a $350k Lamborghini.

[johnnyshaka]

I'm supposed to feel sorry for people that got a free education at a top college because they can play a sport well? Guys that could have used that education to make sure they have life skills and won't waste their money within a couple years of being out of the league.

What if they did take their education seriously and because of their injury they are unable to use their skills to earn a living after their football career is over?

What about a guy who gets an athletic scholarship, graduates, doesn't make it anywhere in the pros, becomes a police officer or a firefighter or a manager of a steel plant and ends up paralyzed because of an accident while at work...any sympathy there? If so, why? This guy got his free education, entered a profession that they know the risks of before signing up but did it anyways.

We feel sorry for the people that made a lot of money when they played and are broke now but we don't ever think about those that are dealing with similar issues after working in factories or were in the military for years making small fractions of what these guys made and don't have the benefit of using people like Ditka to tell their story.

Football players make a decision to get on that field every week...whether it's for millions or for $50,000 a year (CFL average salary) but factory workers and coal miners also make that decision full well knowing the risks why should I feel sorry for any of them?

I'm not that heartless, guys who do dangerous work just because nobody else will are heroes in my book. But what I don't get is that people will gladly kick a guy while he's down just because he had opportunties that others never had.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Nobody's kicking anybody while there down. I'm just not listening to him.

[mgadfly]

However, as someone who is anti-union in general, I have to take into consideration the fact that they voted this union into power...if they didn't insist upon certain things being completely clear and untouchable, then that is kind of their own fault. .

What does this issue have to do with voting in a Union? If I'm understanding it correctly, and I think I am, the owners aren't addressing the issue either. Remove the Union and you still have the same problem (except that the players would be making a lot less money during their healthy/playing years to begin with).

Being an attorney that represents labor unions (on a local level, not the large internationals in D.C.) I have to say that there are some unions that are better at representing their members than others. What is lost in these articles is that the Union (maybe the NFLPA is different?) doesn't control pension funds. Congress changed that a long time ago so that these are joint labor-management. For example, to make changes (such as extending additional benefits to retirees) to the pension plans that I'm involved with you need the three labor trustees and two of three employer trustees to vote in favor of the change. Employer trustees almost NEVER agree to extending an additional benefit because they know that if they do so the Union will come back and request additional funding in the next round of negotiations. I don't know for a fact that this is the situation that the NFLPA is in, they might just be screwing over their members, but the way these trusts are set-up forces the Union to be much too cozy with employers (we call it collective begging) in hopes that they will agree to extending additional benefits. This gives an appearance that the Union is protecting the Employer instead of fighting for its members. Until the system is changed and cuts owners out of the pension trust process (maybe to be replaced by government oversight--shudder), the Unions don't usually have the clout to make the changes if they wanted to. What needs to happen if people want change is for the outrage to be directed at the NFLPA for not fighting for its former members AND the owners for being greedy bastards to begin with (as long as the owners are given a free pass, they aren't going to be too quick to make any changes).

[gstelmack]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3150418

Interesting take on Ditka's own organization, which has taken in $1.3mil to help ex-players and only handed out $159K, and that's if you accept Ditka's number at face value.

[Synovia]

But the NFLPA isn't management, it is a union. Unions were formed to try and keep management from manipulating folks like in the examples you supplied.


And the union does exactly that. Members of the NFLPA are only CURRENT PLAYERS. The health of former members is of no interest to them, unless current members feel its of interest, which they don't.


Why should current players pay for former player's health care, when those players themselves were unwilling to forfeit salary for future health/retirement benefits.

[Synovia]

Expect this topic to get much bigger in the future. Mike Ditka is in the forefront of wanting more exposure/compensation for retired players with long-term football related injuries. And most retired players have them.

Why should today's players pay for Mike Ditka's retirement when Mike Ditka wasn't willing to pay for former players retirements when he was a player. Hypocrite.

[hoopsguy]

For what it is worth, Ditka is not chasing these dollars for his own retirement. He can get a ridiculous amount of endorsements in Chicago alone, twenty-plus years after the Super Bowl win.

If you want to call him a hypocrite as a broad generalization across all players from his time period, so be it. If you want to call him a hypocrite because he is the public face of the players, that is your decision. But this act does not seem, to me, to be Da Coach chasing the all-might dollar.

Whether that makes his stance right or wrong is another discussion entirely. Similarly, from what I've read/heard Ditka would benefit from a better understanding of the issues rather than making assertions that are fast and loose with the facts of specific cases. For example, he didn't understand how a player could borrow against a 401k program. That strikes me as the kind of information that you probably ought to know if you are going to enter into a dispute about player benefits.