Sources: Goodell determines Pats broke rules by taping Jets' signals

[Mantle2600]

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has determined that the New England Patriots violated league rules Sunday when they videotaped defensive signals by the New York Jets' coaches, league sources have told ESPN's Chris Mortensen.

NFL security officials confiscated a camera and videotape from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella on the New England sidelines when it was suspected he was recording the Jets' defensive signals. Sources say the visual evidence confirmed the suspicion.

Goodell is considering severe sanctions, including the possibility of docking the Patriots "multiple draft picks" because it is the competitive violation in the wake of a stern warning to all teams since he became commissioner, the sources said. The Patriots have been suspected in previous incidents.

The Patriots will be allowed an opportunity to present their case by Friday, sources said, most likely via the telephone.

The league also was reviewing a possible violation into the number of radio frequencies the Patriots were using during Sunday's game, sources said. The team did not have a satisfactory explanation when asked about possible irregularities in its communication setup during the game.

Goodell is expected to have a decision no later than Friday but that is not set in stone.

The league refused comment but did confirm Monday that they were reviewing a possible violation by the Patriots.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3014677

[Lathum]

I find it odd no one is bringing up the fact the Patriots should have to forfiet the game. IMO.

[Deattribution]

I find it odd no one is bringing up the fact the Patriots should have to forfiet the game. IMO.

I think that opens up a different can of worms if you do that - but it'll be interesting to see how they perform here on out. I wonder exactly how long they've been doing it, and how much of an advantage it's given them.

[molson]

I find it odd no one is bringing up the fact the Patriots should have to forfiet the game. IMO.

If you're caught cheating, reprimanded, warned, and then you're caught doing the same exact thing the next year, I don't think that's unreasonable at all.

And I love the Pats. But tainted wins suck.

[Young Drachma]

Phew. Back to good ol' fashion cheating rather than performance enhancing.

;)

[RendeR]

Its been a long standing rule, almost a commandment in the NFL that completed games are not changed. The game was played as it was played and that is the result.

I doubt they will overturn that game.

And besides, as others have said, the stealing the signals didn't keep the jets from tackling players or generally showing up for this game. They got beat, signals might have made it easier, but seeing how it was played they'd have gotten beat anyway.

[st.cronin]

Is it actually illegal to steal signals in the NFL, or is it just illegal to use technology to do so (which I think is the rule in MLB)?

[CraigSca]

Wow, and I thought the Patriots were just a good team. Their "honor" rating stinks.

[jeff061]

I'm surprised this has blown up as big as it has. I just don't care one way or the other. Everyone does it, Pats just pushed it to far to often and got busted. I find it very hard to believe it affects the outcome of games as much as some seem to think.

[jeff061]

Christ, the Packers said there's a "code of silence" on stuff like this, and that's why they didn't report it when they caught them last year.

[RendeR]

The thing I wonder about is this:

If the teams know this guy is doing this, and some have actively removed him from games before, why hasn't the league spoken to the Pats before this? lack of witnesses? Willing or otherwise?

And beyond that, if one team is being this blatant about it, you know that the other 31 are doing it too but being a lot more careful of where they put their guy.

[gstelmack]

Everyone is trying to take a piece out of them. I am disappointed in the Pats doing this, but I bet it opens up a can of worms. You've got this, you've got Childress talking about issues with cut-down day, I can't wait to see what Belichik does to get even. Remember his "all probable" injury report after a dispute with the NFL over an opponent's hemming and hawing?

Belichik will just teach the receiver on that side of the ball to watch for the signals...

[Atocep]

People actually think that this is simply because its the Pats?

They cheated, they got got caught. The NFL has said they've been reported it for it multiple times, this time they were stupid enough to do it against a team that is a rival and hates them.

So yes, its because its the Patriots, but more because of who caught them.

Remember his "all probable" injury report after a dispute with the NFL over an opponent's hemming and hawing?

You mean how he violates NFL rules on a near weekly basis with his injury reports?


Belichik will just teach the receiver on that side of the ball to watch for the signals...

You mean not actually break the rules?

[st.cronin]

See, that's the question. Everything I'm reading says that "stealing signals" is illegal, it doesn't say anything about the method. If that's the rule, that's an incredibly stupid rule.

[Blade6119]

People love to stick it to the Pats, that's the price of success. Don't get me wrong, if this is true as stated, then I'm disappointed, but if this is any other team getting caught this thread doesn't exist.

Well, for starters they did get a strongly worded letter from the NFL office last year warning them about such actions after complaints from the bears and packers about pats stealing signs...

[jeff061]

You mean how he violates NFL rules on a near weekly basis with his injury reports?
No he didn't. The injury rules were retarded and he made a mockery of them on purpose after the Vick debacle(listed as probable, when he was pretty much out), that's why they changed them.

[Atocep]

See, that's the question. Everything I'm reading says that "stealing signals" is illegal, it doesn't say anything about the method. If that's the rule, that's an incredibly stupid rule.

This is what the memo to teams last year covered;

Last year New England was reportedly the impetus of a sternly written memo from the league office to all teams, reminding them that it was illegal for any club official to bring a video recording device into the press box, video box or onto the field for the purposes of taping an opponent's signals or play-calling gestures from the sideline.

[Atocep]

No he didn't. The injury rules were retarded and he made a mockery of them on purpose after the Vick debacle(listed as probable, when he was pretty much out), that's why they changed them.


http://www.startribune.com/510/story/769559.html

Other coaches had been complaining about him doing this for how long?

[Deattribution]

I still stand by the fact that if this is the Ravens or Seahawks or Rams its barely a blip on the radar screen.

I have to call BS.

[jeff061]

http://www.startribune.com/510/story/769559.html

Other coaches had been complaining about him doing this for how long?

Like I just said, not even an hour ago, since the week after the Pats played Atlanta and Atlanta played down the injury to Vick SIGNIFICANTLY. This would have been October 05.

From the next week on the Pats did their little probable/questionable thing. They should have changed the rules that season. Seeing as how the Vick situation was ridiculous and Pats counter even moreso. Yet no rules were being broken.

[Atocep]

Like I just said, not even an hour ago, since the week after the Pats played Atlanta and Atlanta played down the injury to Vick SIGNIFICANTLY. This would have been October 05.

From the next week on the Pats did their little probably thing. They should have changed the rules that season. Seeing as how the Vick situation was ridiculous and Pats counter even moreso. Yet no rules were being broken.

And he continually broke the rules nearly every week. Whether it was a stupid rule or not, he didn't follow it. He was breaking the rules himself.

[Easy Mac]

I have to call BS.

Bill Simmons would just blame the Yankees.

I also enjoy that the only people defending the Pats are from MA

[st.cronin]

Bill Simmons would just blame the Yankees.

I also enjoy that the only people defending the Pats are from MA

Um.

[miked]

Yeah, I think the beef the Packers had was that it was somebody with Pats credentials videotaping signals from the Pack sidelines. Their "irregular" frequency stuff has to do allegedly with communicating these plays/signals without anyone knowing. It's pretty low and does put a black mark next to Billy B's "successes" and such.

[jeff061]

Bill Simmons would just blame the Yankees.

I also enjoy that the only people defending the Pats are from MA

As far as coverage, I have no idea what would happen if this was another team, so I won't argue it.

However is it really shocking that someone would defend their own team, any team? In any case, I'm defending the injury report thing. I just don't care about this current "cheating" situation. Wouldn't even care if the Jets were busted after they beat the Pats. Really doesn't register with me at all, if it wasn't the Pats I probably wouldn't even open the topic.

[Logan]

I find it odd no one is bringing up the fact the Patriots should have to forfiet the game. IMO.

The purpose of observing the signs and recording them (the actual illegal act) is so they could be used for preparing for future games. Pop in tape, view signals, match up with on-field action, attempt to observe pattern at future games.

If they were doing this only to beat the Jets on Sunday, there would have been no need to tape it.

[hawk4669]

Sad thing is, and I know this has already been said, they didn't need any of this to beat the Jets this year.

And...keep in mind....I am a die-hard NY Jets fan and have been for a long time. Don't like the Pats much....but any of us Jets fans who think this made little if any impact on the game are fooling ourselves.

Not bashing my team, just being a realist.

Oh, and the Pats should be punished somehow for getting caught. As a side note, I'm sure if they get hit with a severe penalty it will curb ALL cheating that occurs in the NFL. :rolleyes:

Just my two cents.

Cheers!

[jeff061]

I'm quite confident they are going to be losing more than a 7th ;).

[cthomer5000]

Bellicheck has been a piece of shit since the day he spat on Leon Hess' grave by quitting the Jets.

[Suburban Rhythm]

I find it odd no one is bringing up the fact the Patriots should have to forfiet the game. IMO.

Was my first thought as I opened the thread. As mentioned, the NFL will not go back and reverse a completed game.
But if Goodell really wanted to get the attention of 32 teams, that would be a great way to do so. Would never be tried again.

[Daimyo]

Wow. Any other team did this and I'd be surprised. For the Pats I'm just surprised they got caught.

[BishopMVP]

Disclaimer: I'm a Patriots fan, so clearly anything I say is the delusions of a homer.

I really don't see the big deal. Fines, maybe a 4th round pick, ok. But even with Goodell ramping up suspensions, anyone talking about $10 million fines, forfeiting the game or losing a 1st round pick is crazy.

It's clearly cheating (and based off Weis' reaction has been going on awhile by both coaches), but no matter how blatantly they were stealing signals that's not a huge competitive advantage on par with the 49ers manipulating the salary cap. And I'm sure almost every other team in the league is trying to do these things. If they aren't, they're not giving their players the best chance to win games.

[Butter]

Love the Pats fans continuing "everyone's just jealous of us" schtick.

Agree that a forfeiture would be awesome, but the realistic hope is for some kind of other severe punishment.

Also agree that Belichick is a piece of shit. Can't think of a less deserving guy in the NFL to take all the credit for this team.

[st.cronin]

Can't think of a less deserving guy in the NFL to take all the credit for this team.

I give all the credit to Tom Brady. :D

[Maple Leafs]

Clearly, the only fair punishment is to force the team to return any and all draft picks that they own from other teams.

Signed,
49er fans

[MizzouRah]

Sports are REALLY becoming a joke. Why in the F would they have to do something like this?

[BishopMVP]

Sports are REALLY becoming a joke. Why in the F would they have to do something like this?Becoming? This shit's been going on in every sport since they've been invented. I don't want to sound like a Pats fan playing the "everyone's jealous of us" or "any other team it wouldn't be a big deal" - we did it, we got caught (I'm sure Mangini was looking for it) we should be punished, and it would be a story with any other team, but I can't stand the holier-than-thou "my team has and would never stoop that low!" attitude some people are expressing.

[Deattribution]

If it didn't give any advantage they wouldn't of bothered doing it for *atleast* the last two years.

[thesloppy]

And now, from PFT (so take it with a handful of salt):

WERE PATS WIRING DEFENSIVE PLAYERS, TOO?

The situation regarding the New England Patriots and the allegations/proof that they have stolen defensive signals is unofficially getting weirder.

The signal stealing flap is relevant only to defensive signals, since all offensive calls are made by radio.

But we're now aware of suspicions/rumors regarding efforts by the Pats to get a leg up as to opposing offenses. Specifically, we're told that it's believed that, during the 2006 season, the Patriots were putting microphones on defensive linemen in order to capture the offensive line calls and the quarterback audibles.

Then, the audio and the video of the game would be matched up, and the defensive players would be given the code at halftime.

[Surtt]

This wasn't a big deal when they were told to stop it.
When they thumbed their noses at the commissioner and kept doing it, I think it became a big thing to him.

BTW
I am more concerned about them having their defense wired?
That would be a huge advantage.

[jeff061]

BTW
I am more concerned about them having their defense wired?
That would be a huge advantage.


Yeah, I'm not believing that one. That would be a bit much.

[MizzouRah]

Becoming? This shit's been going on in every sport since they've been invented. I don't want to sound like a Pats fan playing the "everyone's jealous of us" or "any other team it wouldn't be a big deal" - we did it, we got caught (I'm sure Mangini was looking for it) we should be punished, and it would be a story with any other team, but I can't stand the holier-than-thou "my team has and would never stoop that low!" attitude some people are expressing.

I'm sure it has, but what I didn't know, didn't hurt me. I'm just freaking sick and tired of turning on ESPN and listening to the first half hour of the show talk about all this F'N cheating going on. Damn... the Patriots have really been one of those teams you just love to watch, then you have to hear about shit like this. The same of Ankiel, Bonds, etc... it just gets old.

[Surtt]

Don't want to belabor this at all, but I'm not defending the Pats. It was wrong, it was stupid, and I'm a bit confused by the whole thing. There's truly no excuse for it.

What I'm trying to get at is, as a Pats fan, the part that pisses me off the most if the ammunition it gives to the haters. Similar to how a sign stealing controversy would be a bigger deal if it was the Yanks instead of the Phillies. When everyone wants to take a piece out of you, why give them ammunition. I have serious doubts that this sort of cheating would even translate to much of any advantage, which confuses me even more.

I can empathize with your position. perception becomes reality.
But any team getting caught cheating red handed would be a big story.

[larrymcg421]

I mostly can't wait to see how Flere covers this.

[Crapshoot]

I'm sure it has, but what I didn't know, didn't hurt me. I'm just freaking sick and tired of turning on ESPN and listening to the first half hour of the show talk about all this F'N cheating going on. Damn... the Patriots have really been one of those teams you just love to watch, then you have to hear about shit like this. The same of Ankiel, Bonds, etc... it just gets old.

I don't mean to be rude, but isn't this more a product of ESPN and our saturated, media coverage environment? I hate to sound like Bucc, but "cheating" in sports has been going forever - assholes have existed in sports forever - its only today we cover each and every activity in such hyper-active detail.

[Maple Leafs]

The purpose of observing the signs and recording them (the actual illegal act) is so they could be used for preparing for future games. Pop in tape, view signals, match up with on-field action, attempt to observe pattern at future games.

If they were doing this only to beat the Jets on Sunday, there would have been no need to tape it.
Really? Then why were they taping the Packers in mid-November? Worried about a possible Super Bowl matchup, or just preparing for their next game in four years?

[Maple Leafs]

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/football/patriots/view.bg?articleid=1030707


For a window into the Patriots’ tactics, multiple Packers sources provided a fascinating account of what happened in the 35-0 victory last Nov. 19.

A man identifying himself as a Patriots employee asked a security guard if he could shoot footage of Lambeau Field before the game, and permission was granted.

Just before the game, he requested to stay on the sidelines to record quarterback Tom Brady [stats] for the coaching staff. However, he was soon spotted filming the Packers defense and signaling Patriots coaches.

A member of the Packers security staff witnessed the exchange and asked him to leave. He retreated to the tunnel, continued filming, and appeared to be communicating with the coaches via hand signals before being escorted off the field.

...

It’s interesting to note a pair of comments after that game. The first came from Packers corner Al Harris, who praised the Patriots coaching staff.

“It’s almost like they knew what we were doing, you know?” he said. “You have to tip your hat to them. They ran plays designed for us. They ran plays that made us check out of some things. I don’t know who calls their plays, but Belichick is pretty good. Honestly, he’s pretty good.”

[MizzouRah]

I don't mean to be rude, but isn't this more a product of ESPN and our saturated, media coverage environment? I hate to sound like Bucc, but "cheating" in sports has been going forever - assholes have existed in sports forever - its only today we cover each and every activity in such hyper-active detail.

Rude? lol.. no way.. I understand it's been going on for years, I just haven't been privy to the information, so therefore I don't really give it much thought (it doesn't ruin my enjoyment of the game) - but knowing it really pisses me off about the Pats and I wonder just how much of an advantage they have had over the years?

[miami_fan]

This thread reminds me another thread (or two) that have involved some sort of cheating. The names may be different but the arguements remain the same.

[DaddyTorgo]

read an article earlier citing "multiple league sources" that basically said "everyone's doing it."

[Celeval]

They cheated, they got got caught. The NFL has said they've been reported it for it multiple times, this time they were stupid enough to do it against a team that is a rival and hates them.

....and whose head coach worked for you for years and years. Hmm. Wonder how he knew which guy to find. ;)

[Neuqua]

According to his wikipedia, Belicheck is a big Bon Jovi fan, and therefore A-OK in my book.

[Fidatelo]

Why don't they suspend Belicheck for a game or two?

[Daimyo]

Seriously Pats fans don't think this is a big deal? They could theoretically figure out where the blitz is coming from, which receivers will be single covered, etc, etc... its a huge advantage!

Watching the Pats-Jets game I came away amazed at how well the Pats blocked the Jets and gave Brady all kinds of time to throw. Now seeing this you have to wonder... how much easier is it to protect Brady when you know where the blitz is going to come from?

Plus we know its been going on for at least two years, but how far back does it go? For me, the Pats winning three out of four titles in the salary cap era made them the most impressive dynasty in football... now, if this is true, I can't say that anymore.... it'll all be tainted.

[miked]

I don't understand how people don't think this is a big deal. They basically are sending guys to the other teams' bench (or nearby enough), picking up signals, and relaying them to their offense. Sure, the Jets missed tons of tackles and let a kick go for a score. But stealing plays definately gives them an advantage.

[stevew]

Bellyfuck a cheater? Say it ain't so.

[Kodos]

Belicheck is a classless cheating asshat.

[Swaggs]

Pretty poor sportsmanship by Belichek. Hopefully the punishment will be severe enough to deter teams from doing it again.

It is interesting that someone from the Belichek coaching tree was the one to bust him.

[Deattribution]

I'm more impressed by people's inability to spell Belichick's name ;)

[dime]

apparently goodell is considering multiple draft picks and a hefty fine. good. this "dynasty" has been full of shit for some time now.No, it's now clear that he's not "pretty good" as Al Harris surmised -- but he is a pathological son of a bitch with some issues. Honestly, you need to win this badly? Using a camera and microphones and whatever else to steal plays? Against the Packers?

Pathetic.

[stevew]

apparently goodell is considering multiple draft picks and a hefty fine. good. this "dynasty" has been full of shit for some time now.No, it's now clear that he's not "pretty good" as Al Harris surmised -- but he is a pathological son of a bitch with some issues. Honestly, you need to win this badly? Using a camera and microphones and whatever else to steal plays? Against the Packers?

Pathetic.

Word

I'd give you karma if we had the karma mod loaded up here.

[Fonzie]

I'll preface these comments by saying that I'm no Patriots hater, and if anything I've enjoyed watching their success over the last several years. A good friend of mine is a Pats fan, so whilst my beloved Packers have languished I've enjoyed "vicarious winning" through him and his team. So, take that as context for the following:

Given the recent punishment (five games, I believe?) a quarterbacks coach (Wade Wilson) got for use of Human Growth Hormone, which had roughly zero.point.zero effect on the outcome of games, it would seem appropriate for Belichick to get at least that many games in a suspension. Belichick was, after all, messing with the (perceived, at least) integrity of the NFL's product far, far more than Wilson did. Goodell seems like a smart enough commissioner to figure out the potential danger there and respond appropriately. I'd say Belichick should thus get at least a 6-game suspension, and the Patriots should get hit with a substantial loss of draft picks and a fine.

Integrity of the game, and all.

[BishopMVP]

Seriously Pats fans don't think this is a big deal? They could theoretically figure out where the blitz is coming from, which receivers will be single covered, etc, etc... its a huge advantage!

Watching the Pats-Jets game I came away amazed at how well the Pats blocked the Jets and gave Brady all kinds of time to throw. Now seeing this you have to wonder... how much easier is it to protect Brady when you know where the blitz is going to come from?

Plus we know its been going on for at least two years, but how far back does it go? For me, the Pats winning three out of four titles in the salary cap era made them the most impressive dynasty in football... now, if this is true, I can't say that anymore.... it'll all be tainted.If doing this was so beneficial last year, why didn't they go undefeated and win the Super Bowl?

And clearly Eric Mangini and Romeo Crennel amongst other coaching staffs know about this, so if it was a huge advantage why weren't they doing it? (Or if they were, why isn't it working?)It’s interesting to note a pair of comments after that game. The first came from Packers corner Al Harris, who praised the Patriots coaching staff.

“It’s almost like they knew what we were doing, you know?” he said. “You have to tip your hat to them. They ran plays designed for us. They ran plays that made us check out of some things. I don’t know who calls their plays, but Belichick is pretty good. Honestly, he’s pretty good.”
Charlie Weis needs to re-start doing this at Notre Dame. :(

[ageofquarrel]

I cant stand the patriots and the city of boston, but seriously isnt their like 3 guys out there giving signals, 2 decoys and 1 real one, How would they know wich one was calling signals.

[bronconick]

If doing this was so beneficial last year, why didn't they go undefeated and win the Super Bowl?


The employee in charge of doing it had to leave at halftime of the AFC title game? :D

[BishopMVP]

The employee in charge of doing it had to leave at halftime of the AFC title game? :DBoo, low blow :o

That actually reminds me of the other time I can remember signal stealing being a huge story - Week 1 of 2004? 2003? When Lawyer Milloy was cut the week before and was yelling out our defensive plays and audibles pre-snap. 31-0 Buffalo. Clearly teams should be spending more effort trying to steal signals.

[larrymcg421]

And I agree that it was both stupid and wrong for them to do this. I still stand by the fact that if this is the Ravens or Seahawks or Rams its barely a blip on the radar screen.

Nah, I kinda agree that the Pats might get more attention because of their success, but there are plenty of people that hate the Rams, Seahawks, or pretty much any team in the league. This would be a big deal no matter what team did it. Especially if it was the Raiders, because that would show just how incompetent they are.

"My Oakland Raiders try catch signal but forget put tape in camcorder."

[AlexB]

OK, it's a rule, so shouldn't be broken, but it's a stupid rule IMHO. Don't see the problem with the taping - it's just like watching game tape, scouting reports, etc - these are taped and reviewed to try and work out patterns and tendencies, and that's all the Pats were doing.

When I read what the fuss was about I was amazed - I assumed every time did this as standard. I know I always try and read the play calling charts when they're on the screen, lip read the coaches, listen to the audibles, and I'm just a fan, and a Miami for that matter.

Really, this is a fuss about absolutely nothing.

[Yossarian]

Really, this is a fuss about absolutely nothing.

What about the part about the equipment frequencies being dodgy?

It's a bigger deal if they were trying to intercept the other team's signals or something.

[Maple Leafs]

OK, it's a rule, so shouldn't be broken, but it's a stupid rule IMHO. Don't see the problem with the taping - it's just like watching game tape, scouting reports, etc - these are taped and reviewed to try and work out patterns and tendencies, and that's all the Pats were doing.

When I read what the fuss was about I was amazed - I assumed every time did this as standard. I know I always try and read the play calling charts when they're on the screen, lip read the coaches, listen to the audibles, and I'm just a fan, and a Miami for that matter.

Really, this is a fuss about absolutely nothing.
Exactly the sort of homer nonsense I'd expect to hear from somebody from Newbury, England

[Aylmar]

Gives a little different perspective to the buzz a couple of years ago that Belichick "always shuts down a QB the second time he coaches against them"...

Eh...I'm much more interested in the possibility of them disrupting the other team's communications or miking defensive players than I am the recording of signals. Steelers assistants (who are remaining anonymous) are saying in the P-G this morning that they've known about this for a while and change their defensive signals when they play New England...

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07255/816713-66.stm

[molson]

If doing this was so beneficial last year, why didn't they go undefeated and win the Super Bowl?



I can't tell if this is a serious point, but obviously if this kind of cheating were THAT beneficial to success, we'd be talking about higher penalties than draft picks.

And just as obviously, if there were no or minimal advantage, the Patriots wouldn't be risking draft picks, embarrassment, and the ire of the commissioner by continuing to cheat.

I don't get why you're defending them, this is such crap. If the Pats do roll to a Super Bowl, you'll now have to deal with talk about this every step of the way.

[rkmsuf]

I would guess most teams do stuff like this which is why people seem to know it's going on but never make much of an issue.

The Jets are the only ones being babies here. Mangini got spanked and like a little kid decides to make a federal case of this.

[wade moore]

Put me in the camp that doesn't understand how people don't think this is a big deal.

[rkmsuf]

Put me in the camp that doesn't understand how people don't think this is a big deal.

considering this and the like has gone on in sports for decades I can see where this is a little meh

yeah they broke the rules, that's never good. up in arms? not me. I guarantee the pats have been taped just as much as they have taped other teams. they have a legion of decoys out there just because everyone knows it's going on.

most teams just mix up their signals and move on. the jets are the only ones crying about it.

[larrymcg421]

The "Mangini is a crybaby" arguments would make more sense if this wasn't week 1 of the season and the commish hadn't just released a warning about this in the offseason. If Belichik ignored that warning, then he's a fucking idiot and deserves whatever punishment he gets whether it's a crybaby that reports him or not.

[rkmsuf]

The "Mangini is a crybaby" arguments would make more sense if this wasn't week 1 of the season and the commish hadn't just released a warning about this in the offseason. If Belichik ignored that warning, then he's a fucking idiot and deserves whatever punishment he gets whether it's a crybaby that reports him or not.

of course the pats deserve whatever penatly is doled out. doesn't take away from the fact that mangini is a titty baby. guy obviously had a stick up his ass after his team got smoked.

[Galaril]

Do peopel think Belichick is stupid or that he would do something if he thought it wasn't useful and of benefit to his cause? And sure other teams do it , but the Pats got caught doing it which is what matters here. When the State Trooper stops me for speeding I could say sure I was speeding but the guy in front of me was going faster, but he could care less and I will still get my ticket.

[rkmsuf]

Do peopel think Belichick is stupid or that he would do something if he thought it wasn't useful and of benefit to his cause? And sure other teams do it , but the Pats got caught doing it which is what matters here. When the State Trooper stops me for speeding I could say sure I was speeding but the guy in front of me was going faster, but he could care less and I will still get my ticket.

who is suggesting that there be no penalty here?

[Noop]

Well if he is going to send a message the Patriots are as good as any team to get that message across. So what if everyone is doing it, everyone isn't the team with a few superbowls in the last few seasons.

[lordscarlet]

Put me in the camp that thinks Patriots fans are a little to o high on themselves if they think this is only a big deal because it's the Patriots. And, because I'm too lazy to go back and quote it, to whoever said it's just like reviewing game tape -- the point is that they are relaying the information during the game.

[Fidatelo]

I kind of like that Pats, but I think this is a big deal, especially the rumors about the unexplained radio frequencies.

I remember watching a part of a pre-season game where the announcers were explaining the green dots on the back of quarterbacks helmets this season. They said it was to indicate which helmets had radio communications in them. I didn't catch if they explained why this was put into place for this season. Perhaps it was done to help police against exactly these kinds of activities, that the league knew (or suspected) were going on?

[astrosfan64]

I find it odd no one is bringing up the fact the Patriots should have to forfiet the game. IMO.

If you do that, then the New York Giants should have to get a loss for every game that LT played in. I mean he was so coked up he thought he was superman.

Everygame that the redskins played with Dexter Manly should be a loss etc...

[Huckleberry]

I cant stand the patriots and the city of boston, but seriously isnt their like 3 guys out there giving signals, 2 decoys and 1 real one, How would they know wich one was calling signals.

This is just me being logical here, but it sure seems like figuring that out would be a lot easier if, I don't know, they videotaped all the signals and compared to what happened on the field.

;)

[albionmoonlight]

I remember watching a part of a pre-season game where the announcers were explaining the green dots on the back of quarterbacks helmets this season. They said it was to indicate which helmets had radio communications in them. I didn't catch if they explained why this was put into place for this season. Perhaps it was done to help police against exactly these kinds of activities, that the league knew (or suspected) were going on?

It was done because a lot of teams use backup quarterbacks as their holders on field goal attempts. Now, when a backup QB goes in to hold, he has to use a non-green (i.e. normal) helmet.

The league did not want the holder to be able to receive signals from the bench about whether to call (or call off) a fake kick. It gives an unfair advantage to teams that use backup QBs instead of punters as their holder.

[wade moore]

It was done because a lot of teams use backup quarterbacks as their holders on field goal attempts. Now, when a backup QB goes in to hold, he has to use a non-green (i.e. normal) helmet.

The league did not want the holder to be able to receive signals from the bench about whether to call (or call off) a fake kick. It gives an unfair advantage to teams that use backup QBs instead of punters as their holder.

Interesting... I heard one talking head say it was because of Mike Vick (and others) being lined up with another QB in the same formation.

[molson]

If you do that, then the New York Giants should have to get a loss for every game that LT played in. I mean he was so coked up he thought he was superman.

Everygame that the redskins played with Dexter Manly should be a loss etc...

I think there's a version of this point in every argument human beings can possibly have, and it's never compelling.

"If you do X, than you have to do Y (even though X & Y never have anything to do with each other)"

[Galaril]

who is suggesting that there be no penalty here?

I am not sayingthat either. What I am referring to is the people who are say this isn't a big deal and steal signals doesn't help the pats. Coach Bill is definitely doing this for a reason.

[MalcPow]

This is just me being logical here, but it sure seems like figuring that out would be a lot easier if, I don't know, they videotaped all the signals and compared to what happened on the field.

;)

But the point still holds, you rotate decoys, you go to a different set of signals each quarter or half, it would not take a rocket scientist to almost completely neutralize attempts to do this. Especially since the calls are coming through to a handful of players at most, and most of the time just one player on the field. Coordinating with that one player who the sideline decoys are and which set of signals were active would not be extremely difficult, and it would severely limit any attempts to steal calls in real time or even prepare for a coming week's game with old tapes.

I don't see the big deal because it really does seem to be easily countered in my mind (and possibly even exploited if you play your cards right). From an ethical perspective, planting a mole on the other team's sideline under false pretenses is wrong, as well as stupid, isn't there a more discrete way to film these things than to have some idiot on the other sideline with a camera flashing hand signals across the field? But at the end of the day, anything more than 4th round pick would seem to be very aggressive to me (and Goodell has demonstrated he's perfectly willing to be aggressive so who knows). So they should be punished sure, but outrage? It's just not there for me.

[SirFozzie]

Well, first before everyone with the fake moral outrage try to claim that it shifted the outcome of the game... the guy was caught in the first quarter, so no advantage was gained.

Seriously.. the team needs to have a 2nd rounder + Mid rounder in the next draft taken away, and possibly another draft pick the year after, and I wouldn't be amiss to seeing BillyBelly miss a game or two. Yes, everyone does it, but the Patriots were the one caught. (I am a Patriots fan, but I'm tired of this full fledged slide into shit that I would only associate with the hatred that's aimed at the Yankees.)

[astrosfan64]

I think there's a version of this point in every argument human beings can possibly have, and it's never compelling.

"If you do X, than you have to do Y (even though X & Y never have anything to do with each other)"

I would agree. But, if you have a policy the policy has to go across the board. So, if cheating gets you a loss, it should get you a loss.

You can't say well if you cheat this way you are ok, but if you cheat that way you are not.

[albionmoonlight]

I would agree. But, if you have a policy the policy has to go across the board. So, if cheating gets you a loss, it should get you a loss.

You can't say well if you cheat this way you are ok, but if you cheat that way you are not.

Personally, I don't think that the Pats should get a loss for this. Draft picks and a fine seems like the right level of punishment if it is true.

But I think that the argument of "if you punish one form of cheating a certain way, then you must punish all forms of cheating the same way" does not hold up.

Certain kinds of cheating damage the integrity of the result more than others. For instance, paying a player under the table to circumvent the cap, or paying off the ref to slant the outcome in your favor damages the game much more than holding practice for 15 minutes longer than the rules allow. In the first instance, one wants to punish the cheating with a severe sanction. In the second, one wants to use something less.

Both are "cheating," and both provide an unfair competitive advantage. But any rational system of punishment and deterrence must account for degrees of wrongdoing.

[wade moore]

From boston.com




I have to admit I'm very interested to see how this one will play out.

Yeah.. all of the articles I've read have said something to the effect of, "The League was very clear before the season..." etc, etc...

[albionmoonlight]

To take it a step further:

Most systems of punishment rely on two factors to decide the level of punishment--the harm caused by the wrong act and the culpability of the actor. (i.e. grand theft auto punished more than petty theft; intentional murder punished more than negligent handling of a firearm leading to someone's death).

Any discussion of the "right" punishment in this case should focus on both of those factors.

[SirFozzie]

Love this commentary by Salon's King Kaufman.

The fracas over the New England Patriots "spying" on the New York Jets during Sunday's game in New Jersey is an early leader for dumbest controversy of the year honors, though to be fair Terrell Owens hasn't even started warming up yet.

NFL security officials confiscated a video camera and tape from a Patriots employee who had been pointing the camera at the Jets bench. The league has a rule against teams having video recording devices in the coach's booth, the locker room or on the field during games.

Why does the league have that rule? For the same reason it has a rule governing the length of players' socks. The NFL likes rules.

So the league is investigating, there is word of similar incidents involving the Patriots in Detroit and Green Bay last year, and the Patriots could be in danger of losing future draft picks or even having to forfeit the game, which they won 38-14.

Let's not get into the cloak and dagger details because, really, who cares? If there's a rule against video cameras and the Pats had a video camera, let 'em pay, though talk of forfeiture is beyond overkill. The last time an NFL game was forfeited was in 1921, the year before the American Professional Football Association changed its name. This can't possibly have been the most serious game-day rule violation since then.

Punish the Patriots if that's what it takes to keep the suits -- and various Pats haters around the world -- happy. Then get rid of that rule.

What the Pats are accused of doing is "spying" on the Jets coaches as they sent signals to the defense. My understanding of spying must be different from the NFL's. Watching a guy flapping his arms while standing in the middle of 70,000 people and in front of a national TV audience doesn't qualify. Even if you point a camera at him.

I mean another camera, aside from all the legal cameras that can be pointed at him.

For the price of a ticket -- assuming the Patriots as an organization can't find a free ticket somewhere -- the Pats can put a guy in Row 12 with a video camera and record the opposing team's defensive signals to their heart's content. But because the guy's standing on the sidelines it's cheating? Kinda nutty, don't you think?

The Patriots may have been trying to steal the Jets' signals for immediate or future use, but there's nothing wrong with stealing signals. It's a fine and respectable art. If it weren't, teams wouldn't need signals that are coded.

The problem is when teams get sneaky about it, hiding a spy in some cranny of the home stadium that the visitors don't have access to or using listening devices to spy on huddles or locker-room meetings. Where a team has an expectation of privacy, it should get privacy. A guy standing on the sideline and flashing semaphores to the middle linebacker can't expect privacy. Again: That's why the signals are coded. That's why the code should be changed every now and again.

The Jets and Patriots are bitter rivals who aren't shy about accusing each other of all kinds of dastardly deeds, so it's worth noting that this accusation came from the league, not the Jets, and that the Jets don't seem to be using it as an excuse for having their hats handed to them on Sunday. I don't think the Jets have a signal, after all, for "let Ellis Hobbs run a kickoff back 108 yards."

If what the Patriots did to the Jets Sunday is cheating, then what the Pittsburgh Steelers did to the Cleveland Browns is cheating too.

The Steelers had way better football players. Is that fair?

[st.cronin]

Driving in this morning, the local sports radio played an old clip of Rocky Long (HC of UNM) talking about how him and Bronco Mendenhall (HC of BYU) use exactly the same defensive signals, but that there's a sort of gentleman's agreement not to steal them.

[Atocep]

What the Pats are accused of doing is "spying" on the Jets coaches as they sent signals to the defense. My understanding of spying must be different from the NFL's. Watching a guy flapping his arms while standing in the middle of 70,000 people and in front of a national TV audience doesn't qualify. Even if you point a camera at him.

He fails to mention that the team is rumored to have used radios to relay these plays....

Yes, it is a rumor at this point, but the irregularities in radio frequencies tells you there was more to it than just simply recording the signals. He also had no problem going off on potential forfeiture of the game, which is nothing more than message board talk.

For the price of a ticket -- assuming the Patriots as an organization can't find a free ticket somewhere -- the Pats can put a guy in Row 12 with a video camera and record the opposing team's defensive signals to their heart's content. But because the guy's standing on the sidelines it's cheating? Kinda nutty, don't you think?

And the guy would be kicked out the stadium for having a video camera at the game. Fans cannot bring video cameras to games. Period.

If this guy is going to take the time to write an opinion on this, he should make sure his facts are straight instead of pulling shit out of his ass that he thinks sounds good.

The Patriots may have been trying to steal the Jets' signals for immediate or future use, but there's nothing wrong with stealing signals. It's a fine and respectable art. If it weren't, teams wouldn't need signals that are coded.

Its so respected that its against the rules.

The problem is when teams get sneaky about it, hiding a spy in some cranny of the home stadium that the visitors don't have access to or using listening devices to spy on huddles or locker-room meetings. Where a team has an expectation of privacy, it should get privacy. A guy standing on the sideline and flashing semaphores to the middle linebacker can't expect privacy. Again: That's why the signals are coded. That's why the code should be changed every now and again.

Thats why there are written rules in place. So teams know their boundaries. The commish was even so kind as to send out a memo reminding teams that using video cameras to tape signals was against the rules.

The Jets and Patriots are bitter rivals who aren't shy about accusing each other of all kinds of dastardly deeds, so it's worth noting that this accusation came from the league, not the Jets, and that the Jets don't seem to be using it as an excuse for having their hats handed to them on Sunday. I don't think the Jets have a signal, after all, for "let Ellis Hobbs run a kickoff back 108 yards."

If what the Patriots did to the Jets Sunday is cheating, then what the Pittsburgh Steelers did to the Cleveland Browns is cheating too.

The Steelers had way better football players. Is that fair?

So they cheated, but would have won anyway, so its ok!

Worst arguement ever. If anything, its that much worse.

This guy wrote an article that reads like a Patriot fan trying to convince himself that what the Pats did wasn't so bad and it shouldn't in any way tarnish their accomplishments.

[Butter]

The Patriots may have been trying to steal the Jets' signals for immediate or future use, but there's nothing wrong with stealing signals. It's a fine and respectable art. If it weren't, teams wouldn't need signals that are coded.

What the hell kind of argument is that?

[SirFozzie]

Oh, before I forget, lets not forget the Jets did (roughly) the same kind of thing by bringing Recce Caldwell in at the end of last week, and apparently asked him to spill his guts about all the check calls that Brady does at the line, and what it means..

[rkmsuf]

Oh, before I forget, lets not forget the Jets did (roughly) the same kind of thing by bringing Recce Caldwell in at the end of last week, and apparently asked him to spill his guts about all the check calls that Brady does at the line, and what it means..

Pats brought in Tim Dwight. You can't outwit Belichick!

[larrymcg421]

Oh, before I forget, lets not forget the Jets did (roughly) the same kind of thing by bringing Recce Caldwell in at the end of last week, and apparently asked him to spill his guts about all the check calls that Brady does at the line, and what it means..

Except that is not even remotely the same thing.

[SirFozzie]

Yeah, this rivalry has gotten way out of hand, like two rival frat houses with prank wars that ends up with someone tearing down the other's house.

[SirFozzie]

Except that is not even remotely the same thing.

Oh? It's trying to steal signals, ain't it?

[rkmsuf]

I wonder if they give guys like Dwight and Caldwell "a little something for the effort" so to speak. I mean they aren't getting signed so why would either one of them give a shit about talking about signals and stuff.

Caldwell probably told the Jets all bogus information anyway.

[SirFozzie]

I wonder if they give guys like Dwight and Caldwell "a little something for the effort" so to speak. I mean they aren't getting signed so why would either one of them give a shit about talking about signals and stuff.

Caldwell probably told the Jets all bogus information anyway.

he probably brought his old Pats playbook with him to the meeting.. and dropped it. ;)

The more I think about it, the more I figure they have to be getting a little something under the table.. not only are they not having any chance to make the team, they're pretty much burning their bridges at their old employer.

[gstelmack]

My guess is that the Patriots will be punished, and 2 years down the road Mangini will be an outcast for having started the ball rolling in what may well be a huge cleanup effort of all the junk the teams are doing (and while the complaint comes from the NFL, I doubt this happens without something from the Jets). I suspect this is just the tip of the iceberg, and if they go after the Pats, it won't be the last incident this season. I can't wait for Belichik's answer when the Jets come to Foxboro. And that cleanup would be a good thing.

Part of me wonders if Belichik did this to draw attention, like with the injury thing. I mean, in the CBS screenshot the guy is just blatantly standing there with a giant camera turned 90 degrees from all the other cameramen standing there. There was no real effort made to hide this from anybody.

[SirFozzie]

My guess is that the Patriots will be punished, and 2 years down the road Mangini will be an outcast for having started the ball rolling in what may well be a huge cleanup effort of all the junk the teams are doing (and while the complaint comes from the NFL, I doubt this happens without something from the Jets). I suspect this is just the tip of the iceberg, and if they go after the Pats, it won't be the last incident this season. I can't wait for Belichik's answer when the Jets come to Foxboro. And that cleanup would be a good thing.

Part of me wonders if Belichik did this to draw attention, like with the injury thing. I mean, in the CBS screenshot the guy is just blatantly standing there with a giant camera turned 90 degrees from all the other cameramen standing there. There was no real effort made to hide this from anybody.

actually, the Jets did send in the tape and made the complaint.

[AlexB]

Exactly the sort of homer nonsense I'd expect to hear from somebody from Newbury, England

:D

[larrymcg421]

Oh? It's trying to steal signals, ain't it?

Is it against the rules? Did Gooddell send out a memo warning teams not to do it?

[stevew]

People bring in guys recently cut from another team all the time. Ask them about strategies, etc. Players shouldn't do it, as it ends up with them having a burnt bridge in an especially violatile coaching league. But they do.

[rkmsuf]

People bring in guys recently cut from another team all the time. Ask them about strategies, etc. Players shouldn't do it, as it ends up with them having a burnt bridge in an especially violatile coaching league. But they do.

there's no way they aren't paid in some form of currency. be it the flesh trade or money.

maybe kraft gives guys some "incentive" for providing misinformation



anyway, who the hell knows what phone calls take place between people every week of the season. that's why this is all nonsense and mangini is just a little bitch.

[gstelmack]

Bellicheck has been a piece of shit since the day he spat on Leon Hess' grave by quitting the Jets.

This is a good story, too. Bellichick would probably be coaching the Jets today if they hadn't gone back on his word to him and instead kept Parcells around. He felt they broke their word, and he was not willing to work under Parcells any more.

[rkmsuf]

I love the 827 different spellings of Belichick's name.

[Maple Leafs]

Oh, before I forget, lets not forget the Jets did (roughly) the same kind of thing by bringing Recce Caldwell in at the end of last week, and apparently asked him to spill his guts about all the check calls that Brady does at the line, and what it means..
{Head explodes}

[molson]

I love the 827 different spellings of Belichick's name.

I just try to stick with "Coach B".

[SirFozzie]

{Head explodes}

Awwwwww. I didn't say it was the exact same thing, I said it was the same category of thing. I've also said it was fucking stupid of the Patriots to basically flip the bird to the commish by doing it right after being put on a list of teams specifically warned about it.

I just don't get the OMG MAKE THEM FORFEIT AND BAN THEM ALL FOR LIFE crowd.

[molson]

Awwwwww. I didn't say it was the exact same thing, I said it was the same category of thing. I've also said it was fucking stupid of the Patriots to basically flip the bird to the commish by doing it right after being put on a list of teams specifically warned about it.

I just don't get the OMG MAKE THEM FORFEIT AND BAN THEM ALL FOR LIFE crowd.

What do you think would be a fair punishment?

[rkmsuf]

forfeit and ineligible for the playoffs are my favorite.

some real intelligent people in this country:rolleyes:

[rkmsuf]

What do you think would be a fair punishment?

draft picks and/or fines

[SirFozzie]

What do you think would be a fair punishment?

From Post 94:

Seriously.. the team needs to have a 2nd rounder + Mid rounder in the next draft taken away, and possibly another draft pick the year after, and I wouldn't be amiss to seeing BillyBelly miss a game or two. Yes, everyone does it, but the Patriots were the one caught.

[Swaggs]

what better stealing signal with video camera or looking at other player controller when calling plays in madden?

[molson]

From Post 94:

OK, so I really don't think there's much disagreement here.

I said something about forfeiture not being "unreasonable" earlier in the thread but that was just my initial over-reaction.

I don't think anyone else in the thread, currently, is callling for forfeiture.

[Swaggs]

OK, so I really don't think there's much disagreement here.

I said something about forfeiture not being "unreasonable" earlier in the thread but that was just my initial over-reaction.

I don't think anyone else in the thread, currently, is callling for forfeiture.

Forfeiture of Tom Brady seems reasonable to me. :)

[rkmsuf]

Forfeiture of Tom Brady seems reasonable to me. :)

and Mike Tyson gets to eat his kid

[Deattribution]

If doing this was so beneficial last year, why didn't they go undefeated and win the Super Bowl?


Actually, I know someone already responded to this - but the Colts legitimately did crack down on this in the AFC title game last year according to PTF.


In fact, we're told by a very good source that, when the Packers caught a Pats employee doing the same thing last season, the Packers knew exactly what to look for, and nailed the guy in the act. The Packers didn't press the issue only because they lost the game 35-0, and didn't want to complain under those circumstances.

The Pats' habits in this regard were so well known that, per the same source, Colts president Bill Polian had all on-field cameras removed for the 2006 AFC championship game.

Thus, the Patriots knew that other people know what was happening. And yet they kept on doing it.

[Maple Leafs]

Awwwwww. I didn't say it was the exact same thing, I said it was the same category of thing. I've also said it was fucking stupid of the Patriots to basically flip the bird to the commish by doing it right after being put on a list of teams specifically warned about it.

I just don't get the OMG MAKE THEM FORFEIT AND BAN THEM ALL FOR LIFE crowd.
There's a huge difference between what the Pats were doing and bringing in Caldwell. Not even in the same ballpark.

That said, talk of forfeits is pretty dumb too.

[SirFozzie]

Looking at what I suggested for punishments, Maple Leafs, would you consider that pretty much fair?

[Maple Leafs]

Wow, the hits just keep on coming for the Pats:
http://prayformojo.blogspot.com/2007/08/brady-leinart-suspended-for-having.html

(Cough.)

[Maple Leafs]

Looking at what I suggested for punishments, Maple Leafs, would you consider that pretty much fair?
The loss of draft picks, along with a fine, sounds fair to me.

If teams can lose a third-round pick for minor salary cap violations, it seems like you have to nail the Pats for at least a second-rounder, or a third and multiple day two picks.

If Goodell feels like they lied to him, or wants to factor in the fact that teams were specifically warned about this just a few weeks ago, then I could see him going as high as a first to send a message. Any thing beyond that seems excessive.

(That's all assuming it's just the video taping, of course... if they were also screwing with the radio signals then it's time to drop the hammer on them.)

[VPI97]

Part of me wonders if Belichik did this to draw attention, like with the injury thing. I mean, in the CBS screenshot the guy is just blatantly standing there with a giant camera turned 90 degrees from all the other cameramen standing there. There was no real effort made to hide this from anybody.
Yeah, and Pac-Man slammed that stripper's head into the stage in order to call attention to the plight of exotic dancers in the U.S.

[DaddyTorgo]

The loss of draft picks, along with a fine, sounds fair to me.

If teams can lose a third-round pick for minor salary cap violations, it seems like you have to nail the Pats for at least a second-rounder, or a third and multiple day two picks.

If Goodell feels like they lied to him, or wants to factor in the fact that teams were specifically warned about this just a few weeks ago, then I could see him going as high as a first to send a message. Any thing beyond that seems excessive.

(That's all assuming it's just the video taping, of course... if they were also screwing with the radio signals then it's time to drop the hammer on them.)

i can't see them penalizing ANY team a first round draft pick for anything

[larrymcg421]

So wait, you guys are only defending the Pats against people that think there should be a forfeit? Talk about setting up a straw man. I mean, it's like when Bill O'Reilly invites a NAMBLA dude on his show and yells at him. Sure he's right, but not really accomplishing much.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, and Pac-Man slammed that stripper's head into the stage in order to call attention to the plight of exotic dancers in the U.S.

LOL! That's gold.

And I think a 2nd round pick and perhaps a lower rounder as well as a fine would be a good punishment.

[Kodos]

At least we don't have many Pats homers on the board...

[rkmsuf]

At least we don't have many Pats homers on the board...

what, you want a beheading or something?

[Kodos]

No beheadings necessary. But some of the guys trying to defend the Pats here are just pathetic in their homerism.

[rkmsuf]

No beheadings necessary. But some of the guys trying to defend the Pats here are just pathetic in their homerism.

To some degree yes but the other side features those avocating beheadings. I call it a draw.

[Kodos]

I think a first day draft pick penalty would be good enough. And maybe a 1-game suspension for Belligerentchickmagnet.

[SirFozzie]

No beheadings necessary. But some of the guys trying to defend the Pats here are just pathetic in their homerism.

as opposed to the slavering hordes and their Pats hate?

[st.cronin]

Personally I think the Jets should be forced to forfeit all Championships won for the last twenty years.

[rkmsuf]

Personally I think the Jets should be forced to forfeit all Championships won for the last twenty years.

Joe Namath is checking out your ass.

[larrymcg421]

as opposed to the slavering hordes and their Pats hate?

I'll have you know that I have plenty of hatred for both the Pats and Jets. That's why all this "Mangini is just a crybaby" defense is so amusing to me. I'm perfectly happy with the Pats as cheating assholes and the Jets as crybabies. Can we make fun of the Bills now?

[rkmsuf]

I'll have you know that I have plenty of hatred for both the Pats and Jets. That's why all this "Mangini is just a crybaby" defense is so amusing to me. I'm perfectly happy with the Pats as cheating assholes and the Jets as crybabies. Can we make fun of the Bills now?

Marv Levy wears Depends.

[rkmsuf]

Interesting tidbit...

"After the Dolphins defeated the Patriots 21-0 in Miami last season, Dolphins linebacker Zach Thomas claimed he knew the Patriots' audibles. He wasn't kidding. Teams sometimes will place microphones on their defensive players to tape the opposing team's audibles. The team then matches the audibles with the play the offense runs. In the shutout loss to Miami, the Patriots played their worst game of the season, as Tom Brady was sacked four times. Coincidence?"

Should the Dolphins lose draft picks?

[larrymcg421]

Interesting tidbit...

"After the Dolphins defeated the Patriots 21-0 in Miami last season, Dolphins linebacker Zach Thomas claimed he knew the Patriots' audibles. He wasn't kidding. Teams sometimes will place microphones on their defensive players to tape the opposing team's audibles. The team then matches the audibles with the play the offense runs. In the shutout loss to Miami, the Patriots played their worst game of the season, as Tom Brady was sacked four times. Coincidence?"

Should the Dolphins lose draft picks?

Uh, link to that "interesting tidbit"?

The story I heard was that the Dolphins bought game film that had sound and thus knew his snap count. I don't remember the full details, though. But sure, take draft picks from the Dolphins. That's like taking away a blind man's car keys.

[rkmsuf]

Uh, link to that "interesting tidbit"?

The story I heard was that the Dolphins bought game film that had sound and thus knew his snap count. I don't remember the full details, though. But sure, take draft picks from the Dolphins. That's like taking away a blind man's car keys.

The story I heard was that the Dolphins bought game film that had sound and thus knew his snap count.

link to that tidbit?

[MikeVic]

link to that tidbit?

Oh go suck an egg.

[rkmsuf]

Oh go suck an egg.

that makes no sense except for in canada. nobody sucks on eggs.

[larrymcg421]

link to that tidbit?

I qualified it with "I heard." I could fully be wrong and I really don't care. You seemed to be presenting your info as fact.

[Galaril]

The Pats should give up a 2nd and 4th rounder this year (maybe a 4th next year), pay a fine 500,000? ................Oh, and Belichick has to operate the Zamboni at the Garden for the next hockey season;)

[MikeVic]

that makes no sense except for in canada. nobody sucks on eggs.

The British do.

[rkmsuf]

I qualified it with "I heard." I could fully be wrong and I really don't care. You seemed to be presenting your info as fact.

give me a break will you

it's all hearsay unless you are there. geez.

no shit that I have no idea of the actual truth in the matter. very few people do.

[cuervo72]

You know, I'd be perfectly happy if both New York and Boston were placed in their own little bubble, only playing themselves, with no communication from the inside out. The cities don't care about any other rivalries anyway, so they won't be losing anything, and on the outside things will be refreshing for the rest of us.

(Seriously, ad for Baseball on Fox: "When you think baseball, you think Yankees vs Red Sox". Yeah, only because it's shoved down our throats, to the point where it just makes me want to throw up and has further soured me on baseball. Nice work guys!)

[lordscarlet]

To the Dolphins thing... part of the situation here is that Goodell sent out a warning during the offseason. Continuing to bring up things in previous seasons is pointless. It's like asking him to suspend Ray Lewis for his legal troubles after Goodell got tough on conduct.

[SirFozzie]

You know, I'd be perfectly happy if both New York and Boston were placed in their own little bubble, only playing themselves, with no communication from the inside out. The cities don't care about any other rivalries anyway, so they won't be losing anything, and on the outside things will be refreshing for the rest of us.

(Seriously, ad for Baseball on Fox: "When you think baseball, you think Yankees vs Red Sox". Yeah, only because it's shoved down our throats, to the point where it just makes me want to throw up and has further soured me on baseball. Nice work guys!)

Your hate for the northeast tastes delicious.

The crap on the message boards I'm reading is hilarious. "Make them forfeit! Ban Belichick from the hall of fame! Make Bob Kraft sell the team".. and these are all serious here.

Oh.. here's something else for you to chew on when your ranting and raving and calling for first rounders, etcetera.. This is minor shit compared to some of the other stuff that's gone on, at least it's ON THE FIELD.

Imagine a team cheats the salary cap. Not talking about a minor mistake. We're talking hiding deferred payments totalling about $29 million from the cap. And then, in a seperate issue it is proven that they cheated on the salary cap for three years running. In those three years, they win two superbowls. You'd be howling up a storm. You'd call for them to be Joe Smithed, never to have a first round draft pick again, right? It's spitting on the competitive balance of the NFL, and must be punished harshly, right?

Well, in the case of the Denver Broncos, they were fined heavily (nearly $2 million over two seperate fines).. but they only lost two third round draft picks.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28969-2004Sep17.html

[Arles]

I love the 827 different spellings of Belichick's name.
No kidding, it's a simple spelling:
C-H-E-A-T-E-R

:D

[wade moore]

no shit that I have no idea of the actual truth in the matter. very few people do.

In the dolphins case, yes. But here for the pats it's pretty cut and dry. That's exactly why you can't compare the two or take draft picks from the dolphins.

If there is proof the dolphins did this, then yes they should be punished too.

[SirFozzie]

You know, I'd be perfectly happy if both New York and Boston were placed in their own little bubble, only playing themselves, with no communication from the inside out. The cities don't care about any other rivalries anyway, so they won't be losing anything, and on the outside things will be refreshing for the rest of us.

(Seriously, ad for Baseball on Fox: "When you think baseball, you think Yankees vs Red Sox". Yeah, only because it's shoved down our throats, to the point where it just makes me want to throw up and has further soured me on baseball. Nice work guys!)


Oh, I was thinking it was the fact that your team has one of the worst owners in sport, and the fact that Red Sox fans basically take over the place when we come down there...

[SirFozzie]

link to that tidbit?

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/patriots/2006-12-13-brady-audio_x.htm

The Miami papers were the one who reported it. The Dolphins said "Wink Wink Nudge Nudge Of course we wouldn't do it, that would be illegal!"

[cuervo72]

Oh, I was thinking it was the fact that your team has one of the worst owners in sport, and the fact that Red Sox fans basically take over the place when we come down there...

Which team would that team be, exactly? I'm not originally from Maryland remember.

[SirFozzie]

Which team would that team be, exactly? I'm not originally from Maryland remember.

Ah. Thought you were an O's fan. Peter Angelos should be fired. Out of a cannon.

[Surtt]

Why does the league have that rule? For the same reason it has a rule governing the length of players' socks. The NFL likes rules.



He lost his credibility right there. Yes, I am sure the NFL has a rule about stealing other teams signals because it looks bad on TV.


I think they should suspend Belichick for 4 games.
It would probably be torture for him to have to watch and not be able to control his team for a month during the season.

[jeff061]

The cities don't care about any other rivalries anyway, so they won't be losing anything, and on the outside things will be refreshing for the rest of us.

The Jets rivalry is all media driven, means nothing to me. I love the Colts/Pats games and still even the occasional Steelers games, though not so much since they tempered their misplaced arrogance.

[Crapshoot]

Err, I don't really like the Pats (especially after being in Boston), but this seems like people screaming for blood because they are the Pats. Could it have helped? Certainly. Did it do much by itself? Probably not.

[Axxon]

The Pats should give up a 2nd and 4th rounder this year (maybe a 4th next year), pay a fine 500,000? ................Oh, and Belichick has to operate the Zamboni at the Garden for the next hockey season;)

No, he should have to snowplow the field every time the visiting team attempts a field goal this season.

I mean, remembering that, all I'm saying is that the name Patriots and integrity haven't exactly been synonymous to me so it surprises me little to see that they still don't respect the game.

That being said, this isn't a huge infraction and certainly not on the same level as salary cap fixing so the penalty shouldn't be that high. I mean, we need to have some team that those of low morals can root for and the Raiders just don't cut it anymore.

[Axxon]

Dola,

I really hate the Dolphins so I was amused by the whole fiasco but bottom line is, it was cheating and it was low class. I've matured a bit in the last 25 years though and wouldn't be amused now even if my team ( like that could possibly happen, rules or not. :) ) tried something like it.

[larrymcg421]

Err, I don't really like the Pats (especially after being in Boston), but this seems like people screaming for blood because they are the Pats. Could it have helped? Certainly. Did it do much by itself? Probably not.

I never really understood this defense, and it pops up in the steroid debate as well. Who gives a shit how much it helped or whether it helped at all? They still cheated. Just because you were dumb enough to cheat when you didn't really need to (which appears to be the case here) doesn't mean it was okay do it. Hell, someone could cheat and actually hurt themselves (I've seen this in Poker), but it's still cheating just the same.

[Big Fo]

Same old Patriots, always cheating.

Taking away second round picks in consecutive drafts and barring Belichick from the practice facility and the sidelines for the next four games would be fair IMO.

[Crapshoot]

I never really understood this defense, and it pops up in the steroid debate as well. Who gives a shit how much it helped or whether it helped at all? They still cheated. Just because you were dumb enough to cheat when you didn't really need to (which appears to be the case here) doesn't mean it was okay do it. Hell, someone could cheat and actually hurt themselves (I've seen this in Poker), but it's still cheating just the same.

Because this now found fondness for some sort of pure idylic vision is generally bullshit of the highest order. Stealing signs isn't illegal - using cameras on the field apparently is (if the fan in the first row had taken it, it would not be illegal). We don't equate stealing a candy murder with murder 1 for a reason - one strikes us as fairly innocuous, while the other is a genuine crime. In this case, to read (some - not all - they're plenty reasonable pro-enforcement arguements here) some of the lines, this alone was responsible for everything. Look, if widespread violation of the salary cap costs you 2 third-round picks and $2 million, then its hard to see this being a "suspend coach for season" kinda thing.

[molson]

(if the fan in the first row had taken it, it would not be illegal).

Go to a game, sit in the front row, and start filming. You won't get much before they throw your ass out of there.

[dime]

I'm pretty jaded, but I'm still amazed at the defenses and excuses trotted out for something that has no defense, and no excuse.

The desperate comparisons to other teams are embarrassing. Yeah, who can forget the time that the Broncos' illegal salary cap helped John Elway know the defensive blitz scheme on a particular play and toss an easy touchdown to...err. But wait, everyone does it so it's not illegal...err. But wait, it doesn't help the Pats win at all, Belichick does it for no reason...err.

The only thing that keeps me from vomiting out of pure disgust at this shameless nonsense is the image of what all these Pats fans would be saying if they found out that Don Mattingly's nephew was videotaping Varitek's signs and relaying them to the Yankee hitters for every at-bat in the upcoming ALCS. I hope to God it happens, the irony would be beyond delicious.

[st.cronin]

Stealing signs isn't illegal.

I'm actually not sure that's true. I've read and heard in several different places that "stealing signs is illegal in the nfl."

[SirFozzie]

I'm pretty jaded, but I'm still amazed at the defenses and excuses trotted out for something that has no defense, and no excuse.

The desperate comparisons to other teams are embarrassing. Yeah, who can forget the time that the Broncos' illegal salary cap helped John Elway know the defensive blitz scheme on a particular play and toss an easy touchdown to...err. But wait, everyone does it so it's not illegal...err. But wait, it doesn't help the Pats win at all, Belichick does it for no reason...err.

The only thing that keeps me from vomiting out of pure disgust at this shameless nonsense is the image of what all these Pats fans would be saying if they found out that Don Mattingly's nephew was videotaping Varitek's signs and relaying them to the Yankee hitters for every at-bat in the upcoming ALCS. I hope to God it happens, the irony would be beyond delicious.

Actually, there's a pretty good remedy for stealing signs in baseball, it's called a 95 MPH Fastball aimed at the fleshy parts of your body.

So $29 million in deferred bonuses that mysteriously doesn't show up on a cap doesn't make your team better? Knowingly breaking the cap three years running "so you can pay off your stadium" (WTF kind of excuse is that.. see the link I provided) isn't as bad or worse?

[SirFozzie]

Oh btw... there's a historical precedent. Remember Bobby Thompson's shot heard round the world? Provided to you by.. you guessed it, stolen signs!.

Teams hiring planes to fly over opponents practices to try to gather information? (There was a story about how the Dallas Cowboys once insisted on renting out the fifth floor of a hotel because it had a view of their practice field)

What's the old saying.. "If you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough?" (doesn't excuse it btw, I'm just pointing out there's a long and glorious history of cheating.)

[SirFozzie]

Oh, also here's further proof that every team tries to steal signals.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/magazine/life_of_reilly/news/2002/01/09/life_of_reilly/

It's no rumor, pal. "Our guy keeps a pair of binoculars on their signal-callers every game," says Broncos coach Mike Shanahan. "With any luck, we have their defensive signals figured out by halftime. Sometimes, by the end of the first quarter."

Five years old.

[molson]

The issue isn't sign-stealing, it's use of video technology. The NFL has made a clear distinction here, and with good reason.

A team could conceivably see (and hear) every square of inch of what's going on the opposing sidelines. The NFL doesn't want the games to be a competition of technologies. You have to draw a line somewhere, and they did.

[SirFozzie]

molson: And I agree, as I said, it was STUPID of the Pats to do so especially after being warned about it.

But let's get all the hypocritical moral anger over "OH NOEZ! THE PATS ARE STEALING SIGNS" exposed for what it is.

[Deattribution]

But let's get all the hypocritical moral anger over "OH NOEZ! THE PATS ARE STEALING SIGNS" exposed for what it is.

That they cheated, got caught - and have a ton of homers crying over their 'unfair' coverage. They've never got anymore 'hate' than any other player or team. They're getting their just due now. That's what it is.

[CU Tiger]

BWe don't equate stealing a candy murder with murder 1 for a reason - one strikes us as fairly innocuous, while the other is a genuine crime.


Ooooooh, Hells no.

I am a fat bastard, no one better run around stealing my candy murder.

[larrymcg421]

molson: And I agree, as I said, it was STUPID of the Pats to do so especially after being warned about it.

But let's get all the hypocritical moral anger over "OH NOEZ! THE PATS ARE STEALING SIGNS" exposed for what it is.

But who are you talking about? I'm not seeing this, at least not here. I'm sure it's happening on talk radio or team message boards, but that's not indicative of any kind of unfair treatment, unless we're gong to complain about how any team is treated.

It seems that the Pats fans here want to set up a straw man so they can complain about unfair treatment. The consensus I've seen here is loss of draft picks, and/or a few weeks suspension for Belichik. I'm not seeing the moral anger about stealing signs at all.

[albionmoonlight]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070912

Everyone outside New England was searching for a legitimate reason to hate [the Pats] for the past four years

I don't understand this sentiment that New England fans seem to hold. 10% of the internet consists of statments calling Bill Belichick a genius. People have been, with a straight face, comparing Tom Brady to Joe Montana since his first Super Bowl win. The general sentiment about the Patriots has been that they are a team that wins with teamwork, hard work, and smart cap managment--kind of the anti-Dan Snyders.

Tom Brady is Mr. GQ--set up as the cool winner and the foil to that overhyped loser and dork Payton Manning.

Things like the Tedy Bruschi story are made national sports stories. New England--far from being hated by America--seems to be the closest thing we have had to America's team over the last five years.

From my perspective, people have not been searching for a reason to hate the Patriots. People, by and large, like the Patriots.

Anyway, maybe I am wrong about New England fans. Maybe Simmons just has this thing where he needs to feel put upon and persecuted. Maybe he does not speak for New England fans.

And maybe I don't get this because I cheer for an NFC team and live in North Carolina. We don't really care much about the Patriots one way or the other from where I come. Maybe in NYC, people really have been looking for a reason to hate the Pats and that's what New England fans have been reacting to.

Anyway, I just don't get why Pats fans seem to want the team to be hated. We don't hate you. By and large, our reaction to you falls somewhere between not caring and liking.

Some people in this thread, of course, are calling for the Pats to forfeit the game, etc., which might seem like undue hatred. But that actually has nothing to do with the Pats. Some people were calling for Michael Vick to be killed because he financed dog fighting. Sports fans tend to over-react to things. This is no exception.

[st.cronin]

People have been, with a straight face, comparing Tom Brady to Joe Montana since his first Super Bowl win.

Please. There is no comparison between Montana and Brady. That's just ludicrous.

[wade moore]

Fantastic post albion. You put into words a lot of what I was thinking. I was getting especially annoyed at Fozzie and others with the persecution complex talking about people screaming for forfeits like it was happening all over this thread. I don't think anyone has seriously proposed that since page 1 of this 4 page thread.

[Deattribution]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070912

Anyway, I just don't get why Pats fans seem to want the team to be hated. We don't hate you. By and large, our reaction to you falls somewhere between not caring and liking.


Good post, and I agree with it.

But it's been the same way with the Red Sox as well, we had to hear for years about the unfair Yankees and their 200 mil payroll compared to the underdog Sox and their 125 mil 2nd highest payroll in the league :rolleyes:

I like the Pats, atleast the players. Brady seems like a good guy, so do several other of their players - they don't talk much, they just play and play well. I like the Sox too, but I can't stand either of their fans. They're overly obnoxious and have some superiority complex with their teams. There are 31 other teams in the league, the Pats really aren't THAT important, get over it. I can name 10-15 other teams I dislike more before even having the Pats coming into the argument, and thats with this current cheating stuff considered.

[Noop]

http://www.ewa.bicom.pl/karaokekids/images/three_blind_mice_hb.gif

[Raiders Army]

I don't like the Patriots because it was a fumble.

[Logan]

I don't understand this sentiment that New England fans seem to hold.

Obviously I snipped a lot, but I think what you said is exactly what he means. People like to hate the winner. They especially hate the frequent winner. It's easier to accomplish this hate when there's an easy target on the champion (think Cowboys). Because of the feel good stories like Bruschi, because Brady wins with class, they play hard, and all the other stuff you said, they didn't have the clear reason to hate New England. Now they have their ammo.

[molson]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070912

I don't understand this sentiment that New England fans seem to hold. .

You make a lot of good points, and I don't doubt that you could care less either way, but honestly, all you need to do is look at one of those "gameday" threads here when the Patriots play a big playoff game.

I got so irritated one day that I went back into the history of one particular poster, and pulled out all his anti-Brady and anti-Patriot rhetoric over the years and posted it. It was pretty startling to see it all at once.

The Patriots aren't the Yankees - they had a pretty awful history until now. So a lot of the current fans that lived through all that can be a little sensitive to the obnoxious/arrogant tag that Pats fans now get. I can't think of another example of a franchise, in any sport, going from historical incompetence to dynasty so quickly.

I'm a Pats fan, and maybe I come off as "arrogant", but I was a fan when a 6-10 season under new coach Dick Mcpherson was considered an incredible success.

But the hate's there, and this is a bigger story with the Pats then it would be with any other team.

But at the end of the day, I'll take the enjoyment they've given me the last 5 years.

[Sublime 2]

Obviously I snipped a lot, but I think what you said is exactly what he means. People like to hate the winner. They especially hate the frequent winner. It's easier to accomplish this hate when there's an easy target on the champion (think Cowboys). Because of the feel good stories like Bruschi, because Brady wins with class, they play hard, and all the other stuff you said, they didn't have the clear reason to hate New England. Now they have their ammo.

Agreed...

You make a lot of good points, and I don't doubt that you could care less either way, but honestly, all you need to do is look at one of those "gameday" threads here when the Patriots play a big playoff game.

I got so irritated one day that I went back into the history of one particular poster, and pulled out all his anti-Brady and anti-Patriot rhetoric over the years and posted it. It was pretty startling to see it all at once.

The Patriots aren't the Yankees - they had a pretty awful history until now. So a lot of the current fans that lived through all that can be a little sensitive to the obnoxious/arrogant tag that Pats fans now get. I can't think of another example of a franchise, in any sport, going from historical incompetence to dynasty so quickly.

I'm a Pats fan, and maybe I come off as "arrogant", but I was a fan when a 6-10 season under new coach Dick Mcpherson was considered an incredible success.

But the hate's there, and this is a bigger story with the Pats then it would be with any other team.

But at the end of the day, I'll take the enjoyment they've given me the last 5 years.

and agreed.

[wade moore]

I got so irritated one day that I went back into the history of one particular poster, and pulled out all his anti-Brady and anti-Patriot rhetoric over the years and posted it. It was pretty startling to see it all at once.

No worse than the Anti-Manning stuff in the very same threads from the Pats fans.

Edit: I don't want to get into this fight, but again the victim mentality just isn't warranted here.

[Deattribution]

Obviously I snipped a lot, but I think what you said is exactly what he means. People like to hate the winner. They especially hate the frequent winner. It's easier to accomplish this hate when there's an easy target on the champion (think Cowboys). Because of the feel good stories like Bruschi, because Brady wins with class, they play hard, and all the other stuff you said, they didn't have the clear reason to hate New England. Now they have their ammo.

But it is being made into a thing that it could/would ONLY happen to the Pats. What you said above is relevant to anyone, and there is no reason to feel sorry for them because they did it to themselves. If anything, it has more to do with Belichick's personality (or lack therefore of) than it does how much they've won. Everything I've seen (this thread doesn't really count for much) brings up the fact how arrogant Belichick is, and that it hardens the blow. You can't deny he's arrogant when he was warned and he still did it anyway.

[molson]

No worse than the Anti-Manning stuff in the very same threads from the Pats fans.

Ya, but you're talking about one side of the NFL's most relevant rivalry criticizing the QB of the other side. Big shocker. I hated James Worthy and Magic Johnson too, but I recognized how great they were. The Pats hate comes from all over, not just Colts fans. (And if Manning can win a couple more Super Bowls, he'll get it too).

[molson]

You can't deny he's arrogant when he was warned and he still did it anyway.

He was getting some heat in New England in the early part of that '01 season when Bledsoe was injured. He was arrogant, stoic, unemotional - and he never won a damn thing.

Shit turned around after that though.

[wade moore]

Ya, but you're talking about one side of the NFL's most relevant rivalry criticizing the QB of the other side. Big shocker. The Pats hate comes from all over, not just Colts fans. (And if Manning can win a couple more Super Bowls, he'll get it too).

I'm just sayin' it's not some all out assault on the Pats. Sure, there's some guys - but much of it is reactionary - I know it was from me and other Colts/Manning fans in those threads. The Pats fans start slingin' the insults and then go all "you hate us cause we're godly" when people lash back.

[ISiddiqui]

Listen the Patriots as a team are a likable bunch (maybe except for Rodney Harrison, but you can't have everything). I think any hatred may come from the attitude of some (not ALL) fans, especially with the attacks on Manning, which were a bit much for this NFC fan.

[CU Tiger]

I don't know. All in all Id say the Pats have been given the benefit of the doubt on most situations.


I mean no one (that I havee heard) has ridiculed Brady for Fathering children out of wedlock, and largely being an uninvolved parent. I mean people joke about it, but never the seering condemnation that Randy Moss, Shawn Kemp, and others have received.

I think largely The Pats have been the feel good, David Beats Goliath, Aw shucks, Americana sentiment for several years.

I also agree that New Englanders and really Yankees as a whole tend to have a much greater sense of self worth than is justified. We really arent searching for reasons to hate the Pats, we generally dont care about them. More apathetic than hatred, but of course since they are from Bahston they have to be either most loved or most hated.

Really chowds get over yoursleves....

[molson]

I'm just sayin' it's not some all out assault on the Pats. Sure, there's some guys - but much of it is reactionary - I know it was from me and other Colts/Manning fans in those threads. The Pats fans start slingin' the insults and then go all "you hate us cause we're godly" when people lash back.

Fair enough. I'm just saying you have to take the Pats history into account. They're called "arrogant", even though they were the ugly kid at the dance for 30 years. They react defensively, and are thus "obnoxious".

And this doesn't even begin to take into account the pure "bandwagon" fans, of which there's many.

[wade moore]

Listen the Patriots as a team are a likable bunch (maybe except for Rodney Harrison, but you can't have everything). I think any hatred may come from the attitude of some (not ALL) fans, especially with the attacks on Manning, which were a bit much for this NFC fan.

Fair enough. I'm just saying you have to take the Pats history into account. They're called "arrogant", even though they were the ugly kid at the dance for 30 years. They react defensively, and are thus "obnoxious".

And this doesn't even begin to take into account the pure "bandwagon" fans, of which there's many.


I think these two together give a pretty fair summary.

I have no problem with the Pats themselves. In fact, I like several of the guys (Brady, Maroney, Bruschi, Samuel, etc) a lot. It's the fans that I (and many) take issue with.

This is a lot different than me as a Redskins fan hating the Cowboys team themselves (and their fans, don't get me wrong) particularly back in their successes of the 90's.

[Deattribution]

He was getting some heat in New England in the early part of that '01 season when Bledsoe was injured. He was arrogant, stoic, unemotional - and he never won a damn thing.

Shit turned around after that though.

So he was always an arrogant prick, how does that not give people a fair reason to not like the Pats? This confirms it, beyond just whispers around the league. It would still be irrelevant to the fact that they won.

Plus, they're effin cheaters - who cares if people dislike them for winning with a unfair competitive advantage? If you're a Pats fan and you wanted to boast how great your team was during that period (and they were) you also have to accept the fact that the people involved potentially won tainted games. That's nobody's fault except Pat's brass, if they didn't want to possibly deal with that reality eventually, they shouldn't have done it in the first place.

This is the equivalent of punching someone than crying foul when you get punched back.

[molson]

So he was always an arrogant prick, how does that not give people a fair reason to not like the Pats? This confirms it, beyond just whispers around the league. It would still be irrelevant to the fact that they won.



I don't know if you have an NFL team that you're a fan of. But if so, and Belichick quit the Pats and lead your team to 3 super bowls, you'd be happy that he came, and you'd want him to stay forever.

So when Pats fans see everyone else complaining about him being a prick - how do you think it looks?

[cuervo72]

Ya, but you're talking about one side of the NFL's most relevant rivalry

Actually, it's pronouncements like this that get me. Hey, nothing is more relevant than Colts/Pats. Nothing is more relevant than Yankees/Sox. The rest of the league...they can just go screw themselves. We're the important ones.

[Karlifornia]

http://www.ewa.bicom.pl/karaokekids/images/three_blind_mice_hb.gif

I don't get the reference, but I find this oddly funny.

[Arles]

The only reason the Pats are relevant is because they're winning. If they were a 5-7 win team over the past 4 seasons, this story wouldn't be as big. But it has nothing to do with the fact that the Pats are from Boston, it's because they are looked on as one of the best teams in football.

[BishopMVP]

Actually, it's pronouncements like this that get me. Hey, nothing is more relevant than Colts/Pats. Nothing is more relevant than Yankees/Sox. The rest of the league...they can just go screw themselves. We're the important ones.I wouldn't say most relevant, but certainly most prominent. And that's ESPN/the media's fault. As a Patriots fan, I'm sick of ESPN by Tuesday in the week leading up to a playoff or big regular season game. I would be much happier if they had John Clayton on for 5 minutes a day during SportsCenter giving notes from around the league and then we all watched the game on Sunday. Same thing in baseball regarding the Sox and Yankees.

If I'm getting annoyed with how much my favorite teams are covered, I can only imagine how annoying it is for the rest of the league's fans.

[cuervo72]

Perhaps...but I think it's trumped up with all the Manning vs. Brady stuff. The Patriots faced the Steelers in two conference championships as well (sure, they faced IND one other time in the playoffs before the CC), but that "rivalry" isn't really talked about.

(my "perhaps" was to RD2 - Bishop touches upon what I'm getting at here with the media)

[Surtt]

But the point still holds, you rotate decoys, you go to a different set of signals each quarter or half, it would not take a rocket scientist to almost completely neutralize attempts to do this. Especially since the calls are coming through to a handful of players at most, and most of the time just one player on the field. Coordinating with that one player who the sideline decoys are and which set of signals were active would not be extremely difficult, and it would severely limit any attempts to steal calls in real time or even prepare for a coming week's game with old tapes.

I don't see the big deal because it really does seem to be easily countered in my mind (and possibly even exploited if you play your cards right).


I think this is what New England was doing!

I have been thinking about this all day because it didn't make sense. If you are cheating, you do not put the guy 5 yards away in plain view of the Jets. You do it by telephoto lens, so know one knows.

I think they were just trying to un-nerve the Jets defensive staff. No one likes to have someone looking over their shoulder while they wok, especially not in the hyper secretive NFL. So just park the camera man there and spook the Jets staff. You would not even need to do anything with the tape. Teams would ad all sorts of gimmicky to try to disguise their signals, which is just that much more work and something that could go wrong.

Just a thought....

[TroyF]

1) The Broncos cheated and I hate it to this day. I didn't know it at the time, so it didn't impact my enjoyment of the Super Bowls, but it still made me ill. It really sucks when "your" team is caught doing something like that. It's sickening. It's like winning a game on a horrible call. I can't stand it when that happens.

2) That said, the punishments against the Broncos were at a different time under a different commish. There is no comparison. None. The comparison here is the commish and who he is and what he's done to players who have engaged in inappropriate conduct. The Pats, along with everyone else, were warned. They chose not to comply and deserve WHATEVER the commish decides to give them for it.

3) There are all sorts of things that bother me in this. I think the extra radio frequencies bother me as much or more than anything. It's shows a complete lack of respect for the game.

4) The excuses are laughable. Everyone else does it. (no, they don't do it with video tape and extra radio frequencies.) It isn't that big of an advantage. (ummm, actually it's a HUGE advantage. Beyond huge really. This is why the Patriots were doing it. If it weren't an advantage, why take the risk of getting caught? For the hell of it?) People just hate the Pats (no, people hate cheaters. This is a story if it's the Broncos, Rams or Vikings) Stop it with the excuses. There is no excuse for it. Stop searching for one. They cheated. Period. You can still like them, still like Beli, still want to have Brady's kid. I don't care. They cheated. It's that simple.

5) They'll still win a lot of games. They didn't have to do this. It's sad, stupid and pathetic that they did. I hope it was worth it.

[molson]

Actually, it's pronouncements like this that get me. Hey, nothing is more relevant than Colts/Pats. Nothing is more relevant than Yankees/Sox. The rest of the league...they can just go screw themselves. We're the important ones.

I intentionally used the word "relevant" there rather than biggest, or most historic. In the last 5 years, there's no more relevant rivalry in the NFL, no two teams that have played so consistently in playoff games and high profile regular season games. If that makes me obnoxious, then I'm obnoxious.

[BishopMVP]

Have the radio frequencies/miking players been confirmed?

[Daimyo]

Perhaps...but I think it's trumped up with all the Manning vs. Brady stuff. The Patriots faced the Steelers in two conference championships as well (sure, they faced IND one other time in the playoffs before the CC), but that "rivalry" isn't really talked about.

(my "perhaps" was to RD2 - Bishop touches upon what I'm getting at here with the media)

You've got the two best teams in the NFL over the last five or so seasons (both in terms of regular season records and post season success). You've got the two best quarterbacks in the league and two of the best coaches. They play every season and usually again in the playoffs. The coaches, stars (and fans) couldn't be more different... they used to play in the same division. .. Seriously, what other rivalry in football comes close right now?

Philly is probably the only franchise that comes close in terms of quality and it would probably be much more of a big three if McNabb wasn't always injured. Even then though they'd be the odd team out since they're NFC. Pittsburg isn't really consistent enough IMO.

[Daimyo]

DOLA, I don't watch or read ESPN (except for Sunday Countdown)... maybe that helps. If you avoid the hype though, I'm not sure how you can not find the rivalry compelling.

[Crapshoot]

Actually, it's pronouncements like this that get me. Hey, nothing is more relevant than Colts/Pats. Nothing is more relevant than Yankees/Sox. The rest of the league...they can just go screw themselves. We're the important ones.

I'm a Giants fan (baseball) and a 49ers fan (in as much as I'm a football fan). This comes across as nothing more than middle-market envy again - "why oh why aren't the Royals/Padres/Brewers/Panthers/XXX getting more coverage?" Look, I wish ESPN didn't treat every Red Sox - Yankee series like the apocolypse, but the viewership, both in quantity and quality (demographics - money in markets) is significantly higher there. Its a free-market - ESPN and co are catering to what their very expensive market research tells them. Bitching about it because its unfair doesn't change the demographics.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Wow, 8 pages long. Nice.

None of you will give a crap, but here's my viewpoint as a Pats' fan:

1. It's very important to realize that the Pats did nothing wrong in trying to decipher signs. This is allowed and EVERYONE does do it - both during the game and in looking at pre-game video. It's been going on for decades.

2. It appears (as I am sure the commish will rule) the Pats did break a rule by using video equipment to do it.

3. I don't think you can claim that the use of video equipment was a huge advantage over ordinary sign stealing techiques -- and that's the valid comparison here, not sign stealing vs. no sign stealing. Those claiming anything else are fooling themselves. This is a no-video rule breaking, not a no-sign-stealing rule breaking. With that said, it is an advantage. By the way, if the Pats had used the camera to video tape the hot dog vendor, the same rule would have been broken.

4. It needs to be cleared up that the Pats guy was NOT on the same side of the field as the Jets - as has been misreported. Although that does not really matter in the analysis. Likewise, the rumors about radio frequencies is unsubstantiated at this point, but I believe what people are talking about is the video guy using a microphone to talk to the staff -- NOT THE INTERCEPTION OF THE OTHER TEAM'S COMMUNICATIONS.

5. I am still puzzled by the use of a guy decked out in Pats gear, standing there with a camera pointed at the opposing sideline. It's so blatantly obvious, especially after getting warned. The only explanation I can come up with is that Belichick thinks the rule is stupid. He was going to flaunt it just to show how stupid it was. Which was a mistake if true -- see observation number 6.

6. This is huge public relations disaster for the team and Belichick. And it will hurt them in the pocketbook because of it.

7. As a Pats' fan, my feeling is sort of like hearing your little brother punched some guy in the face and you later find out he did it for no reason. You still love the guy, but you're thinking "geez, did you really have to do that, I mean you were kind of acting like a jerk there."

8. As stated, people calling for forfeitures, etc. are way off base. A rule was broken (a no video taping rule) - I'd call it neither a major one nor a minor one. I don't think it even compares to the secretive systematic circumvention of the salary cap by the Broncos or the 49ers; and in which it was PROVEN TO HAVE OCCURRED WHEN THE TEAMS WERE ACTUALLY WINNING THEIR CHAMPIONSHIPS. It deserves punishment. I think a 3rd round pick is about right. And a hefty fine.

9. Belichick is not a nice man. He'll do everything he can to win. He won't make any friends doing it, and he'd just as soon as steal $10 buck from his mom's wallet if it guaranteed him an extra first down the next Sunday. But what he does is win games - by hook or by crook, and by most of the very same hook or by crook methods used by every coach. Every great coach does it. Guys like Jimmy Johnson, Bill Parcells, George Allen -- they all did it. As an example, if you think someone like Mangini is beyond slipping Reche Caldwell a few thousand bucks for tips on the Pats' gameplan, you are sadly mistaken. I find that unseemly too (and I am sure Belichick does it too), but perhaps not a technical rule violation. These guys are getting paid several millions of dollars to win football games. They're going to do it.

10. Now, can we talk about the Chargers game? I have no idea on how the Pats are going to win that one without being able to use a video camera. I guess a couple of guys with binoculars sitting next to the Chargers' guys with binoculars will have to suffice.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

For clarity's sake, here's the rule that the Pats are alleged to have been broken. It's rule 105 out of the Game Operations manual.

"No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." It later says: "All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

It makes no mention of deciphering/stealing signals. However, it should be noted that all teams were warned by the league not do to video taping, to view teams signals or otherwise. They all got a memo from league HQ stating: "Video taping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

I'd also point out that Rule 105 comes right after rule 104 that says teams shall not serve beer in anything other than plastic cups -- a rule that has been systematically violated by every team for years who have been serving it in plastic bottles. String 'em all up. (I say that facetiously of course).

And why by the way is everyone after Belichick. He wasn't operating the camera. It was Matt Estrella. I definitely agree Estrella should be suspended for 4 games.:D

[Dutch]

Let's add a new one.

Rule 106 - No Cheating!

[wade moore]

7. As a Pats' fan, my feeling is sort of like hearing your little brother punched some guy in the face and you later find out he did it for no reason. You still love the guy, but you're thinking "geez, did you really have to do that, I mean you were kind of acting like a jerk there."

This sounds about how I'd react if it was my team that did this.

[AlexB]

I still don't get why even a Pats fan thinks a 3rd round pick is fair punishment. This is so minor in my mind that it's not true. It's the same offence in effect as a fan taking a camera into a game. It's not and never has been about trying to work out opposition play calling signals. It's about the camera. And that is worth losing a 3rd round pick? Nuts. Absolutely nuts.

With one proviso - if they were deliberately intercepting radio communications, that is something that you can't do without technology, so that would be a step up in the seriousness of the 'offence'. But from what I can tell it's not actually been confirmed that this was the case, the furore is about a camera FFS.

From what I'm reading, using a dictaphone to describe the signals, then matching them up with game tape after the event is fine - that's not 'cheating'. But using a camera to record the actions is 'cheating'. Purleaze.

[Dutch]

If Al Harris' "It was like they knew what we were doing every play" is even remotely correct, that is bothersome, no?

[Eaglesfan27]

If Al Harris' "It was like they knew what we were doing every play" is even remotely correct, that is bothersome, no?

Very much so. I don't see how anyone can say this wouldn't give them an advantage.

[jeff061]

If it didn't they would not have done it. But I will never believe it gives the edge Dutch's quote implies or some of the stuff Hines Ward has been spouting. I hated the Steelers team from that era, far more than any disdain I've had for the Colts ;). Hines is still licking his wounds apparently.

[rkmsuf]

I like Noop's point. Not one person here has a clue what actually happened or to what degree whatever went on affected any game.

[Izulde]

I don't know if you have an NFL team that you're a fan of. But if so, and Belichick quit the Pats and lead your team to 3 super bowls, you'd be happy that he came, and you'd want him to stay forever.


No. After this tidbit, it'd be almost as bad as the fucking Jimmy Johnson thing.

Belichick is all cocky, no funny.

I'm thinking pick(s) and a good-sized fine myself. It gives a tangible punishment and allows Godell to keep his ball-buster rep going.

[larrymcg421]

I still don't understand the "didn't affect the game" arguments. If he was willing to risk a punishment for somethign that didn't affect the game that much, then that's stupidity on a Matt Millen/Kevin McHale level.

Is he an idiot or is he a cheater?

[st.cronin]

Once again on the radio this morning, there were guys claiming that "stealing signs is illegal in the NFL." I know some people here have said that's not true, but can anybody source something that specifically says its ok to steal signs in the nfl?

[molson]

Once again on the radio this morning, there were guys claiming that "stealing signs is illegal in the NFL." I know some people here have said that's not true, but can anybody source something that specifically says its ok to steal signs in the nfl?

It seems like common sense to me - I mean, what is everyone supposed to do, shield their eyes from opossing coaches? Could you not be allowed to glance over there and pick up an poorly or un-coded signal that you might be familiar with?

[larrymcg421]

I think the NFL doesn't want people stealing signals, but obviously such a rule cannot be enforced. There's really no way to stop one of the large number of staff/personnel on the sidelines from looking at defensive signals. This is why he sent the memo about video equipment. That's something they can enforce, and can at least stop sign stealing to that extent.

[st.cronin]

What worries me, though, is if there actually is a rule against stealing signals, then this could be much worse than initially thought.

[SirFozzie]

Once again on the radio this morning, there were guys claiming that "stealing signs is illegal in the NFL." I know some people here have said that's not true, but can anybody source something that specifically says its ok to steal signs in the nfl?

st.cronin,, look at the statement I posted from Shanahan, the Broncos coach in 2001-02, where he said on good days they have their opponents signals figured out by halftime, or even the end of the first Q.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

There is no rule against deciphering (a more apt description) signs. That's for sure. If there was a rule, every time a coach has said in the past, "we knew their signs" they would have been fined/suspended, which did not happen. Chalk that up to media hype. The offence is using video equipment - whether to decipher signs or film the hot dog guy. Now, I will admit while it's the same rule, the punishment should be different simply because it does give a very slight competitive advantage (and I mean slight) to those teams that have to decipher signs without the aid of video equipment.

JRS, that's why I say a 3rd round pick. I just can't agree, even as a Pats fan, that that is the same as a fan bringing a camera into the game, or filming the hot dog vendor.

[st.cronin]

Knowing the Pats, they would probably be happy if the NFL took away their first round pick. Those guys are overpaid, anyway.

[miked]

There is no rule against deciphering (a more apt description) signs. That's for sure. If there was a rule, every time a coach has said in the past, "we knew their signs" they would have been fined/suspended, which did not happen. Chalk that up to media hype. The offence is using video equipment - whether to decipher signs or film the hot dog guy. Now, I will admit while it's the same rule, the punishment should be different simply because it does give a very slight competitive advantage (and I mean slight) to those teams that have to decipher signs without the aid of video equipment.

JRS, that's why I say a 3rd round pick. I just can't agree, even as a Pats fan, that that is the same as a fan bringing a camera into the game, or filming the hot dog vendor.

This is not true. Especially since the league sent out a message emphasizing that videotaping of coaches booths, signal callers, etc was not allowed. Quit saying the same furor would be over taping the hot dog vendors because it's clearly not the same thing in the eyes of the league.

[SirFozzie]

BTW, for those who think we (Patriots fans) are overreacting, here's some idiocy that I've come across.

Terrell Davis (of the "Cheating Broncos") wants the Patriots to be ineligible for the playoffs for two years.

ESPN Sports Nation poll on what the Pats punishment should be (nearly 95,000 votes)
Fined 15%
Multiple Draft Picks taken away 7%
Fined & Multiple Draft Picks 35%
Forfeit the Game 41%

Quotes from various message boards..

IF the Patriots were caught cheating in a game versus the Jets and only that game...

how is the punishment not: The games results are forfeited changing Patriots to loss and jets to win

...

You want to hurt them and teach them a lesson? Hit their pocket books. Fine them $1 Million, take away their next 2 1st rounders, and take away their franchise tag ability.

...

i'm hoping for NE to lose it's franchise just because boston fans deserve it as the bar none worst fans to deal with in the country.

[Surtt]

3. I don't think you can claim that the use of video equipment was a huge advantage over ordinary sign stealing techiques -- and that's the valid comparison here, not sign stealing vs. no sign stealing. Those claiming anything else are fooling themselves. This is a no-video rule breaking, not a no-sign-stealing rule breaking. With that said, it is an advantage. By the way, if the Pats had used the camera to video tape the hot dog vendor, the same rule would have been broken.


I am not sure how you can say this.
At the very least you can use the lens to get a close up view. In addition you can study them at leisure and match them up to the defensive play. It would not help real time. but the next time they played it would.

[MO542]

Let me start off my making an analogy and I’ll get on to my point.

I live in Nashville and the interstate speed is 70. It is common knowledge that if you drive around 75 MPH you will not get a speeding ticket. However, if you are driving around 80 you better look out for cops because you will get a ticket. It is all speeding but there are different tolerance levels depending on the extent to which you are speeding.

I’m an Eagles fan and think the Pats beat us fair and square in the Super Bowl so I have no dog in this fight. This is my take on the situation.

All teams try to employ some sort of “gamesmanship”; however, there were rumors of the Pats being a little bit too good in this department. They were caught filming at the Green Bay game and the Packers let them go, but word traveled around the league. The competition committee decided that filming on the sidelines was going too far (analogous to going over 80 in a 70 MPH speed zone). Nothing was done to the Pats because all teams do employ “gamesmanship” to a certain degree, but they decided to send out a memo emphasizing the rule to draw a line in the sand. This memo was a hint to any teams filming signal to stop or they would be punished. The Pats chose to ignore the memo.

In my mind there are two violations here, having a camera on the sidelines and choosing to ignore the hint sent out by the league; the latter being the more serious violation. Therefore, I expect serious punitive damages imposed on the Pats by the league to deter the Pats from ignoring rules in the future. If there is one thing that I’ve learned about Goodall, it is that he doesn’t mess around.

[MalcPow]

I still don't understand the "didn't affect the game" arguments. If he was willing to risk a punishment for somethign that didn't affect the game that much, then that's stupidity on a Matt Millen/Kevin McHale level.

Is he an idiot or is he a cheater?

Surtt mentions it above, and I heard Chris Mortensen say this on the radio yesterday, but there's a good chance the Pats were doing this (and being so obvious about it) simply to get in the heads of opposing coaches. Everyone may be trying to steal signs, but if the Pats have a guy with a camera talking into a headset, feverishly making hand signals after each play call, etc., then there's a good chance people are going to notice, adjust behavior, hesitate about making adjustments, doubt their scheme, wonder whether they can bring a corner blitz and not get burned, and on and on. Seen from that perspective it's an advantage, but more in a gamesmanship sense than a cheating one. As I mentioned earlier, the ability to use decoys and changing up signals neutralizes this almost completely, I honestly believe Belichick is leveraging the perception of his "genius" and how the Pats "always have the right call on" (which is crap) to unnerve opponents into thinking he knows everything they're doing.

[larrymcg421]

One of the annoying things here is that the Pats fans seem to want it all. You guys have your three Superbowl titles in a 4 year span, and the Pats are one of the favorites to win it again. So you guys have that, but that's not good enough. You want to claim that your team is persecuted. Come on now. I'd love for the Dolphins to be hated like this if it meant three Superbowl wins.

So suck it up and enjoy rooting for your evil empire to win more championships and let the rest of us with shitty teams play the victim card.

[molson]

It's facinating how people can know so much about a large, eclectic group of fans.

That's my biggest pet peeve in all this.

[larrymcg421]

Surtt mentions it above, and I heard Chris Mortensen say this on the radio yesterday, but there's a good chance the Pats were doing this (and being so obvious about it) simply to get in the heads of opposing coaches. Everyone may be trying to steal signs, but if the Pats have a guy with a camera talking into a headset, feverishly making hand signals after each play call, etc., then there's a good chance people are going to notice, adjust behavior, hesitate about making adjustments, doubt their scheme, wonder whether they can bring a corner blitz and not get burned, and on and on. Seen from that perspective it's an advantage, but more in a gamesmanship sense than a cheating one. As I mentioned earlier, the ability to use decoys and changing up signals neutralizes this almost completely, I honestly believe Belichick is leveraging the perception of his "genius" and how the Pats "always have the right call on" (which is crap) to unnerve opponents into thinking he knows everything they're doing.

I could buy that before this season, but after the memo was sent, this is still much too big a risk for a negligible effect on the outcome.

[Noop]

Has any Pat fan in this thread actually admitted that they deserve all the attention and the future punishment from Goodell? (I skipped pages) Instead of complaining and making this bigger then what it is the Pat fans can just accept their team got caught cheating.

[molson]

One of the annoying things here is that the Pats fans seem to want it all. You guys have your three Superbowl titles in a 4 year span, and the Pats are one of the favorites to win it again. So you guys have that, but that's not good enough. You want to claim that your team is persecuted. Come on now. I'd love for the Dolphins to be hated like this if it meant three Superbowl wins.

So suck it up and enjoy rooting for your evil empire to win more championships and let the rest of us with shitty teams play the victim card.

I don't get it.

Pats fans "want it all?" So you're not allowed to root for your team after they've had a certain level of success.

I hate to drop the J word, but how can one read anything else in this post.

[wade moore]

BTW, for those who think we (Patriots fans) are overreacting, here's some idiocy that I've come across.

Terrell Davis (of the "Cheating Broncos") wants the Patriots to be ineligible for the playoffs for two years.

ESPN Sports Nation poll on what the Pats punishment should be (nearly 95,000 votes)
Fined 15%
Multiple Draft Picks taken away 7%
Fined & Multiple Draft Picks 35%
Forfeit the Game 41%

Quotes from various message boards..

IF the Patriots were caught cheating in a game versus the Jets and only that game...

how is the punishment not: The games results are forfeited changing Patriots to loss and jets to win

...

You want to hurt them and teach them a lesson? Hit their pocket books. Fine them $1 Million, take away their next 2 1st rounders, and take away their franchise tag ability.

...

i'm hoping for NE to lose it's franchise just because boston fans deserve it as the bar none worst fans to deal with in the country.

Again - why do you keep bringing up things made by moron commentators, stupid voters on ESPN Nation, and random stupid other message boards? We all know those people are morons - people in THIS thread are not saying those things.

[MikeVic]

It's facinating how people can know so much about a large, eclectic group of fans.

That's my biggest pet peeve in all this.

Every Pats fan I've come across doesn't think this is a big deal, and doesn't even think the Pats would have done it. Of course, I don't know many Pats fans in person, so maybe it's just a small sample.

[Noop]

I guess the pat fans feel like 2pachttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3d/Meagainsttheworldcover.jpg

[molson]

Every Pats fan I've come across doesn't think this is a big deal, and doesn't even think the Pats would have done it. Of course, I don't know many Pats fans in person, so maybe it's just a small sample.

There's a good chance the Pats fans you come across personally got on the bandwagon in the last few years. I don't doubt that there's a lot of obnoxious ones out there.

Though I don't think the "this isn't a big deal" argument is so ridiculous that only a bias Pats fan could have it. (Though I personally think it's a big deal).

[larrymcg421]

I don't get it.

Pats fans "want it all?" So you're not allowed to root for your team after they've had a certain level of success.

I hate to drop the J word, but how can one read anything else in this post.

I don't know how you read that from my post. I said to keep rooting for your team. They're very successful and you should have plenty of good times in the upcoming years. The point of my post was to wonder what the fuck you guys are complaining about. You act as if the Pats are some wronged team that is unfairly singled out all the time. Give me a break.

[molson]

Has any Pat fan in this thread actually admitted that they deserve all the attention and the future punishment from Goodell? (I skipped pages) Instead of complaining and making this bigger then what it is the Pat fans can just accept their team got caught cheating.

None of them have said there shouldn't be a punishment.

[Noop]

I don't know how you read that from my post. I said to keep rooting for your team. They're very successful and you should have plenty of good times in the upcoming years. The point of my post was to wonder what the fuck you guys are complaining about. You act as if the Pats are some wronged team that is unfairly singled out all the time. Give me a break.

I agree.

[Noop]

None of them have said there shouldn't be a punishment.

Well from what I gather they/you feel like the Patriots don't deserve the harsh punishment that may come down.

[molson]

I don't know how you read that from my post. I said to keep rooting for your team. They're very successful and you should have plenty of good times in the upcoming years. The point of my post was to wonder what the fuck you guys are complaining about. You act as if the Pats are some wronged team that is unfairly singled out all the time. Give me a break.

I'm not totally sure how we're supposed to act.

If we get upset when everyone calls us assholes - we're obnoxious and we shouldn't complain about everything because hey, the team's won super bowls.

If we don't care when people call us assholes, and we just focus on the success - we're arrogant assholes who think we're above everything.

[rkmsuf]

Well from what I gather they/you feel like the Patriots don't deserve the harsh punishment that may come down.

I think you gather incorrectly. The ones clamoring for beheadings and forfeits are the funny ones.