POL: Jesse Jackson: Obama "acting like he's white"

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

http://www.thestate.com/local/v-print/story/177514.html

Posted on Wed, Sep. 19, 2007
Jackson criticizes Obama
Presidential candidate’s response to Jena, La., case called too weak
By RODDIE A. BURRIS

The Rev. Jesse Jackson called Tuesday on Democrats seeking the 2008 nomination for president to give S.C. voters “something to vote for” when they go to the polls in January.

On a statewide tour to register new voters, Jackson said South Carolina will determine “who has momentum” in the primary when it votes Jan. 29.

Jackson sharply criticized presidential hopeful and Illinois Sen. Barack Obama for “acting like he’s white” in what Jackson said has been a tepid response to six black juveniles’ arrest on attempted-murder charges in Jena, La. Jackson, who also lives in Illinois, endorsed Obama in March, according to The Associated Press.

“If I were a candidate, I’d be all over Jena,” Jackson said after an hour-long speech at Columbia’s historically black Benedict College.

“Jena is a defining moment, just like Selma was a defining moment,” said the iconic civil rights figure, who worked with Martin Luther King Jr. in the 1965 Selma civil rights movement and was with King at his 1968 assassination.

Later, Jackson said he did not recall making the “acting like he’s white” comment about Obama, stressing he only wanted to point out the candidates had not seized on an opportunity to highlight the disproportionate criminal punishments black youths too often face.

Jackson also said Obama, who consistently has placed second in state and national polls behind New York Sen. Hillary Clinton, must be “bolder” in his political positions if he is to erase Clinton’s lead.

Jackson is the only African-American ever to carry South Carolina in a presidential primary election.

Obama’s South Carolina campaign pointed to a statement it released last week in which Obama called on the local Louisiana district attorney to drop the excessive charges brought in the case.

“When nooses are being hung in high schools in the 21st century, it’s a tragedy,” the Obama statement said. “It shows that we still have a lot of work to do as a nation to heal our racial tensions.”

Thousands from across the country, including some from Columbia, are expected to converge on the small town of Jena today to protest the “Jena 6” arrests.

Jackson told the 500 to 600 students in his audience at Benedict that “criminal injustice,” instead of a rope, is the pressing civil rights issue of their day, but that voting remained their strongest ally.

“Your fight is not about ropes, it’s about hope,” Jackson said, blasting the flood of guns and violence he said permeates many black communities.

Civil rights, he said, has become the counterculture of the day rather than the prevailing culture. “You can’t call on the Justice Department anymore; it’s not there.”

Jackson, who became only the second major black candidate to run for president, won five primaries in his 1984 bid for the office, then 11 primaries and nearly 7 million votes in his 1988 run.

He said the 2008 presidential candidates must speak most directly to the pressing S.C. issues of housing, high tuition costs, health care and a plan to end the war in Iraq.

“The candidates have got to speak to South Carolina,” said Jackson, who was traveling also to S.C. State University in Orangeburg and to Charleston Tuesday evening before wrapping up his registration drive tonight in Aiken.

A Greenville native, Jackson said he hoped to register thousands of new voters during the statewide swing, which began Saturday in Rock Hill.

“Their votes must equal change,” he said, referring to residents in a state where only 1 in 4 eligible voters go to the polls. “I want to make sure the right agenda is being voted on in 2008.”

His approach worked for senior mass-communications major Darius Dior Porcher, 21, who graduated from famed Scotts Branch High School in Clarendon County, which produced the Briggs v. Elliott school desegregation case of 1954.

“The main thing when you speak to students is to get them to move,” Porcher said. “He moved students today. He got them to come down to the floor and register to vote.”

[albionmoonlight]

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/09/jackson-vs-obam.html


Yesterday, after sitting through a tedious speech by Barack Obama on tax policy, I noted (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/09/obama-on-taxes.html):
If Obama gets no further than his current rut (I suspect he'll surpass it later in the fall), he will nonetheless have achieved something remarkable. Here is a credible, serious African-American candidate for president boring an audience on tax reform. The days of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton dominating African-American politics and visibility are gone.
I guess Jesse Jackson agrees (http://www.thestate.com/local/v-print/story/177514.html). Jackson's "acting white" remark is a sign of desperation - of failure, of the bankruptcy of pure victim politics. It's racist; and it's offensive. But it's also an extremely encouraging sign. It could help illustrate one of the game-changing features of the Obama candidacy and open more eyes to the potential in the Illinois senator; and it could jump-start up a real debate among African-Americans about what their future politics should look like and express. Both are very healthy developments.
Obama, after all, is not only running against Clinton and her well-oiled machine. He's also running against the failed past in racial politics. But part of his candidacy is about not explicitly returning to these tired and divisive racial themes, while articulating policies that he believes benefits whites and blacks in an interconnected America. Yhe Obama campaign should thank Jesse Jackson for making the newness of Obama's racial message clear in a way that leaves the race-consciousness to others. It's the first lucky break Obama's had in a while.
Obama in the end didn't need a Sistah Souljah moment. He needed a Jesse Jackson moment. And he just got one.

[molson]

How do white people act? I want to make sure I'm doing it right.

[rkmsuf]

Did Obama go on Oprah? If so maybe Jessie is on to something.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Breaking News... Jesse Jackson acting like a has-been, former wanna-be leader who needs a platform from which to speak and can't stand anybody else in the spotlight.

Hey Jesse... Here's a clue for ya: Other black folk are allowed to make it.

[MikeVic]

Jesse Jackson asswhite.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Breaking News... Jesse Jackson acting like a has-been, former wanna-be leader who needs a platform from which to speak and can't stand anybody else in the spotlight.

Hey Jesse... Here's a clue for ya: Other black folk are allowed to make it.

QFT.

In addition, they can make it without stirring up the race pot to draw attention to themselves. Jesse and Al assume that people didn't support them in election bids because they're black. They couldn't be more wrong.

[miked]

I really don't understand this Jena 6 thing. It's all over the news here in the A and on the radio stations I listen to, they were organizing protests and having people call in. Hanging nooses around trees is disgusting, did those kids deserve to be expelled, I don't think so. Denying education doesn't seem like the appropriate response. Charging 6 kids who jump 1 kid with attempted murder and 10 other charges as adults, probably not correct either, but most of the charges have already been struck down or reduced. So I just don't get what the major racial issue is here. Maybe the white kids who hung the ropes should've been charged with a crime, but I don't see why everybody is jumping up to defend a bunch of kids who hospitalized another kid, one of whom has a list of priors.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I don't see why everybody is jumping up to defend a bunch of kids who hospitalized another kid, one of whom has a list of priors.

Interesting choice of words.

All you have to do is look at them to see why they're being treated as victims instead of the criminals they are. And since their victim was white, then they're surely blameless.

[Mustang]

How do white people act? I want to make sure I'm doing it right.

Do you want Corporate White, Redneck White, Geek White or Generic White?

[bulletsponge]

Do you want Corporate White, Redneck White, Geek White or Generic White?


where's Hippie white

[miked]

where's Hippie white

I saw it at the Bjork concert the other night, and the Dave Matthews/Allman Brothers concert the week before.

[Klinglerware]

Barry White?

[Crapshoot]

I think it was David Horowtiz (a right bastard himself) who said it, but if "God has a sense of humor, Al Sharpton and David Duke will share a cell in hell." Jesse Jackson isn't quite there yet, but at times he gets close.

[Klinglerware]

Hanging nooses around trees is disgusting, did those kids deserve to be expelled, I don't think so.


If someone hung a noose at my front door, I would be afraid for my well being. That sounds like "terroristic threat" territory to me.

[sachmo71]

Obama reminds me of a porn actor.

[rkmsuf]

Obama reminds me of a porn actor.

black or white?

[Crapshoot]

Fyi, reading a little more about this case, it sure stinks of double-standards. The white kids got a suspension for hanging a noose? A white kid beat up a black kid, and only got probation (while these black kids got charged with attempted murder?). If the book is being thrown, it ought to happen both ways.


http://www.charlotte.com/opinion/story/285249.html

[Bubba Wheels]

6 black kids beat up 1 white kid. Sources say the white kid had nothing to do with the 'nooses' incident. Seems pretty cut and dried any way you slice it...

Maybe 'acting white' just means not taking sides based on race.

[astrosfan64]

Fyi, reading a little more about this case, it sure stinks of double-standards. The white kids got a suspension for hanging a noose? A white kid beat up a black kid, and only got probation (while these black kids got charged with attempted murder?). If the book is being thrown, it ought to happen both ways.


http://www.charlotte.com/opinion/story/285249.html

The kids hanging a noose did not violate any laws according to the district attorney. He tried to find something, but couldn't. At least that is what he said.

[Noop]

I wish all this nonsense would stop and people would get along.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

The way I see the Jena situation...

It is unfortunate that it is not illegal to hang a noose from a tree as either a joke or a means of threatening... that needs to be changed.

An appropriate response to me would have been to destroy the tree.

Many things went down afterwards that we will never know the whole truth about. It's a true he said/he said situation.

The fight that resulted in the arrest of these six young men started somehow. If it was due to six black guys that thought they'd teach a lesson to a white guy, then the arrests are valid and they should be punished. If however, the white guy provoked it... in this situation, dropping an N bomb should be looked at as yelling fire in a crowded theater. The kids should get probation and have it on their records, but to lock someone up for many years in such a situation seems wrong.

[JW]

The matter is a lot more complicated than today's news stories will have room to explain. Here are two good links that contain a lot of detailed explanation of the things you may have heard bits and pieces of. Both the papers are Gannett papers. They have been fairly objective in this.

http://www.thetowntalk.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070731/NEWS01/707310322

http://www.thenewsstar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070920/NEWS01/709200324/1002

Here is a picture -- rarely used by the media -- of the kid who was beaten by the six other kids at the school.

http://images.chron.com/photos/2007/09/19/7980946/600xPopupGallery.jpg

M GO BLUE,

The US Attorney explains in one of the links why there were no charges regarding the noose. Note the principal tried to expel the kids who hung the nooses, but he was overruled by the school board. A mistake imo.

The tree has been cut down.

And you are right. A lot is he said/he said. It seems clear to me though that overall the white kids involved in all these things got far better treatment from the authorities than the black kids.

From all the things I can gather from news stories and hundreds of area news forum things I've read, some by those who claim to have seen the fight or who know people who did, the white kid said something to one of the black kids, possibly taunting him about being beaten up in an earlier off campus fight. It was a crowded hallway. I don't think we'll ever know for sure. The one black kid then hit the white kid from behind, knocking him down. While he was down on the ground and motionless, six black kids then hit him and kicked him in the head repeatedly until pulled away. No one seriously disputes that part of it.

My view is that the DA grossly overcharged the black kids. In fact he is as much responsible as anyone for this becoming a national circus. I'm not sure why he did that. I'm not going to accuse him of being racist. I just don't know. But I do think he screwed up royally.

But I also think the six black kids should have been cuffed and taken away and charged with something and expelled.

Another note. Mychal Bell has a history of assaults as a juvenile and was apparently on probation when he jumped the white kid.

I teach at a high school. You just can't have a gang beatdown like that go unpunished at a school, even if there was a verbal provocation, or you will have more of the same. And even the n-word cannot excuse a gang beatdown imo (though the guy using the n-word would imo be kicked out of school, too). At my school whenever there is a serious fight, i.e., serious punches are thrown as opposed to yelling, posturing, stripping off shirts, shoving, and more posturing, people are taken away in cuffs. We don't have many serious fights for that reason. And if a gang beatdown were to occur, there would be serious charges. But not like the Jena case.

I am also concerned about the view among many of the marchers that the six should be excused somehow, get a pass on this, because of the nooses. I don't think so. If these kids are poster children for the new civil rights movement, then something is seriously screwed up.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

JW,

The thing I hate (aside from the obvious actions involved) is that like everything else in this country you have two very vocal sides that want to ignore the truth to push their agenda. You have one side with Jesse Jackson who gets excited and seem to enjoy when they get a chance to jump on a cause, but it never matters whether the cause is just. This diminishes the voice that is truly needed for those who are screwed by society.

On the other side you have the people who pander to the opposing side, beating the drums that the media only pays attention to the black "thugs" (to quote one I heard today on the radio) but not to the poor white kid...

We have a long way to go.

Any white guys (or girls) here have heard other white people say things that just boggle the mind. One that sticks out to me was a guy my sister was actually engaged to, who was trying to tell me that I got what I was asking for when I rented my house to a black woman who had stopped paying rent and refused to move out. He said that most black people were trash. I told him he was wrong, and he tried backing off slightly by saying "If I took my gun into Detroit and started shooting, maybe 3 of every 10 kills would be decent people, but who cares!" I invited him to share his opinion with some friends of mine, who I assured him would be very interested in what he had to say. He declined.

There is much too much ignorance out there.

[JW]

JW,
We have a long way to go.



Agree.

[Noop]

There is much too much ignorance out there.


I agree. It is easy to get bogged down with race, I let it happen to me way to much. Somethings are just better left unsaid when it comes to race.

[miked]

I am also concerned about the view among many of the marchers that the six should be excused somehow, get a pass on this, because of the nooses. I don't think so. If these kids are poster children for the new civil rights movement, then something is seriously screwed up.

That's what I'm confused about...bussing people in, having thousands march and they are basically saying free the Jena 6. It's not charge the white kids too, it's that these 6 should somehow go free because they were visually and audibly taunted. One of them, as has been stated, has priors. I just don't get it. It's silly that the book was thrown at them, but from what I hear on the radio stations in the ATL (V103, 107.9) is that is gross injustice and they should be fred.

[astrosfan64]

If six white guys beat a black guy, what would Al and Jessie do then? Start riots?
I'm sick of those two idiots. I wonder if they would defend the white guys if they were charged? I wonder if it would be ok, if the black dudes were calling the white guys cracker?

This is a stupid story. Overall, I don't get it.

If Six white guys beat another white guy, what would the charges be? Non Story.

If Six black guys beat one black guy, we wouldn't of even heard of this story.

I'm really getting sick of America. I love this country, but god damn. My daughter can't even bring birthday invitations into school. They are afraid she might hurt someones feelings she didn't invite.

I personally feel that the masses are getting over this racist crap. I'm middle class, live in a middle class neighborhood. Half of my friends are races other then "white". I mean, I have Indian friends, Asian friends, Hispanic friends and Black friends.

You know what I call them? Umm just friends.

Do black people get treated worse in some areas of the country, yep I bet they do. Do white people walk around on egg shells these days? Yes they do. I mean, the media and these groups try to make white people feel guilty on a daily basis.

We need to stop teaching in schools that whites enslaved blacks. That would be a HUGE step. Why can't we just teach in school that HUMANS enslaved other HUMANS throughout history.

There have been blacks enslaving whites, whites enslaving blacks. One religion enslaving or slaughtering another etc...

The point is a Human shouldn't do anything to another Human. Really the only time I call a dude black or white, is for descriptive purposes only. e.g. The guy with the blond hair. The guy with the scar on his face. The white dude. The black dude etc...

[JPhillips]

We need to stop teaching in schools that whites enslaved blacks.

The African slave trade is the largest forced movement of a population in history. It changed the face of the Americas as well as the future of a number of African countries. Even without the rather obvious moral problems involved it would be ridiculous to simply say "humans enslaved humans."

And you certainly mention race a lot for a guy that claims to not mention race.

[WVUFAN]

The African slave trade is the largest forced movement of a population in history. It changed the face of the Americas as well as the future of a number of African countries. Even without the rather obvious moral problems involved it would be ridiculous to simply say "humans enslaved humans."

Absolutely right, and when it happened 200-300 years ago, it was horrible. Now, it's used as a crutch by some minorities to expect special treatment.

If 6 white guys jump a black guy over race, there would be a FIRESTORM of people in this country screaming for their heads (see: Rodney King), but since it's obvious that somehow this white guy DESERVED getting pummeled by 6 black guys, it's ok.

Sometimes I just don't understand people.

[astrosfan64]

The African slave trade is the largest forced movement of a population in history. It changed the face of the Americas as well as the future of a number of African countries. Even without the rather obvious moral problems involved it would be ridiculous to simply say "humans enslaved humans."

And you certainly mention race a lot for a guy that claims to not mention race.

The conversation is about race. Kind of hard to stear away from that topic when debating the topic. Come on now.

[Warhammer]

The African slave trade is the largest forced movement of a population in history. It changed the face of the Americas as well as the future of a number of African countries. Even without the rather obvious moral problems involved it would be ridiculous to simply say "humans enslaved humans."

And you certainly mention race a lot for a guy that claims to not mention race.

Let's not forget that many of those who were selling the slaves and capturing them were black themselves. That part is conveniently left out in many discussions.

Regardless, the fact remains that it was and is a terrible thing to have happened. But, on the flip side, how many of those that are descended from slaves would prefer to live in Ghana, the Ivory Coast, Liberia, etc.?

Further, regardless of how much the deck may be stacked against some people, with hard work and intelligence you can improve your lot here in the US.

Going back to the previous point, I think we would be better off if we said humans enslaved humans. At this point, I think the majority of people that play the race card do so because they can gain more power or retain their power if race is an issue. If race ceased to be an issue, if people ceased to believe that they didn't get a job because of race, or hide behind race for various reasons, we would make a great leap forward as a society.

[JPhillips]

The slave trade wouldn't have existed without white Europeans/Americans. That's simply a fact. There may have been small incidences of slavery, but the mass capture and enslavement of thousands of Africans was based on the needs of a relatively small number of Caucasians. It's disingenuous in the extreme to suggest that there was equal culpability between whites and blacks.

As for playing the race card, sure it happens. I don't know much about the Jena case, but I'm certainly uncomfortable with protesting for a complete elimination of punishment. I also generally tend to distrust anything where Jackson takes the lead. At least Sharpton is a garden variety demogogue. Jackson is much more coniving and threatening IMO. But, Dr. King did die in his arms.

Warhammer, your last paragraph is based on the premise that there is no racism. Do you really believe that?

[astrosfan64]

The slave trade wouldn't have existed without white Europeans/Americans. That's simply a fact. There may have been small incidences of slavery, but the mass capture and enslavement of thousands of Africans was based on the needs of a relatively small number of Caucasians. It's disingenuous in the extreme to suggest that there was equal culpability between whites and blacks.

As for playing the race card, sure it happens. I don't know much about the Jena case, but I'm certainly uncomfortable with protesting for a complete elimination of punishment. I also generally tend to distrust anything where Jackson takes the lead. At least Sharpton is a garden variety demogogue. Jackson is much more coniving and threatening IMO. But, Dr. King did die in his arms.

Warhammer, your last paragraph is based on the premise that there is no racism. Do you really believe that?

So I guess all the "jews" that were enslaved by the Egyptians wasn't large scale right?

BTW if the caucasians weren't there to buy them, the conquered tribes would of kept the slaves are slaughtered them.

You are basically saying that drug dealers aren't bad its the people who want drugs.

The mob wasn't bad during prohibition it was the people who wanted to drink.

During the time of slave trading my family was living in Poland. Just because I'm "white" doesn't mean my ancestors or myself had ANYTHING to do with what happened to the africans. You would be pretty hard pressed to find a group of people more dicked over then the Polish during the WW2 era.

Does that mean, I should be able to demand "repriations" for myself?

[JPhillips]

WTF are you talking about? You said "humans enslaved humans" should be what's taught in school. I pointed out that that idea is ridiculous. Now you're arguing that drug dealers aren't bad? Let me simplify this.

You: Stop teaching that whites enslaved blacks.

Me: That's stupid.

You're simply completely wrong in arguing that all the African slaves would have been killed if they weren't enslaved. There is quite literally no evidence that that would have happened. Africans were rounded up solely because of the economic incentives set up by the slave trade.

And where did "repriations" come from? And Poland? I know it's easier to argue about things I didn't say, but let's raise the bar, okay?

[M GO BLUE!!!]

You would be pretty hard pressed to find a group of people more dicked over then the Polish during the WW2 era.


Jews?

[Klinglerware]

Africans were rounded up solely because of the economic incentives set up by the slave trade.

And where did "repriations" come from?

Yes, this is a good reading of the slave trade--obviously slavery existed prior to the 1500s, but the trade did not become large scale until European traders created demand and could offer the African traders something of value to them (I believe it was rum and guns, essentially). It was lucrative business for both sides.

And yes, I also agree that the "repriations" comment was rather loaded.

[Bubba Wheels]

Jackson and Sharpton will ultimately have an impact on things regarding race by their actions, but not the one that they are thinking they will have.

Most media cameras are showing alot of marching and demonstrating and those doing it are thinking that they are accomplishing something. They are, but again not what they think.

The real education regarding Jena and the lesson learned, at least for many white folks, came in a probably little seen interview with a white mother that lives there. What the white mother said, and what many more are thinking, is that they will leave. They will pull their kids out of public schools and leave, maybe even the area. They will leave because they can.

White folks see this for what it is, a no-win situation for them. They will get bashed by the liberal media for things that happened to others before they were even born, then they will see their own kids in harms way by others of another race that somehow gives them a built-in excuse for abhorent behavior.

Six guys kicked this kid in the head AFTER he lay motionless? Sorry, that IS attempted murder. A kid in Michigan was killed by one punch after he fell and hit his head on the ground. Bloomfield High School. Kicking someone in the head can kill them. Multiple people doing it to someone lying motionless cannot be considered anything less.

Oh yeah, Jackson, Sharpton and their supporters end results? Creating more and more segregation. Why stay in a no-win situation? Look at Detroit, 94% black. One Detroiter was on local news lamenting that he doesn't see white folks anymore. When he was growing up in Detroit he saw white folks all the time. Not anymore. Think this is because of skin color? Then your delusional.

Its because no sane person, black or white, is going to subject themselves to harm in a no-win situation. They won't fight, they will just leave, because they can.

[astrosfan64]

Jews?

Umm, in case you didn't notice quite a few of the Jews were Polish.

[astrosfan64]

WTF are you talking about? You said "humans enslaved humans" should be what's taught in school. I pointed out that that idea is ridiculous. Now you're arguing that drug dealers aren't bad? Let me simplify this.

You: Stop teaching that whites enslaved blacks.

Me: That's stupid.

You're simply completely wrong in arguing that all the African slaves would have been killed if they weren't enslaved. There is quite literally no evidence that that would have happened. Africans were rounded up solely because of the economic incentives set up by the slave trade.

And where did "repriations" come from? And Poland? I know it's easier to argue about things I didn't say, but let's raise the bar, okay?

Umm since not much has changed in Africa how can you argue that point. There are many cases of genocide and tribal warfare. Let me guess that is again all of our faults because we want diamonds and other resources?

[King of New York]

The slave trade wouldn't have existed without white Europeans/Americans. That's simply a fact. There may have been small incidences of slavery, but the mass capture and enslavement of thousands of Africans was based on the needs of a relatively small number of Caucasians. It's disingenuous in the extreme to suggest that there was equal culpability between whites and blacks.

The large-scale shipping of West African slaves to other parts of the world existed for centuries before Europeans first became major purchasers. Instead of being shipped across the Atlantic, as they would be from the early sixteenth century onward, West African slaves traveled across the Sahara in caravans and were sold in the eastern Mediterranean to Arabs and Turks, who for nearly one thousand years simply had much more purchasing power than Europeans had. So much more purchasing power, in fact, that they bought lots of European slaves too for a while, up to about 1000--many of them eastern Europeans (Slavs/Slaves), but not all of them.

One could argue, of course, that what other peoples were doing before the European slave trade arose has no moral relevance to the European slave trade itself. And slavery in the New World (mostly agricultural, with some domestic slaves) was almost certainly harsher than what West African slaves sold in the Arab world would have encountered (mostly domestic service).

I'm not certain, though, why it's disingenuous to see white and black slave traders as equally morally culpable. Maybe they are not equally culpable, but without the active and willing cooperation of local West African rulers, European slavers could never have acquired even a small fraction of the numbers they did. Until the late nineteenth century, the climate and diseases of West Africa decimated Europeans who tried to remain there for any length of time.

[JPhillips]

You probably have a point with moral culpability. What I was trying to get at was that without the demand from the European slave traders there simply would have been no reason for many of the Africans involved in the slave trade to capture and enslave other Africans. The Middle Passage only existed because there was a demand for slaves.

Really, though, my point is and has been that the idea of teaching a sort of neutral "humans enslaved humans" is ridiculous. The slave trade to the Americas is important in so many ways that it absolutely should be taught. I'd argue that the three trends that most clearly shaped the U.S. were European immigration, American Indian extermination, and the African slave trade.

[JPhillips]

Umm since not much has changed in Africa how can you argue that point. There are many cases of genocide and tribal warfare. Let me guess that is again all of our faults because we want diamonds and other resources?

WTF does this have to do with teaching about slavery?

There was a recent study that looked at the economic and social development of several African countries and tried to gauge the effect of the slave trade. Not surprisingly there was a long lasting effect on those countries that lost large numbers of there population.

But your above quote makes it pretty clear that your real argument is that the Africans are inferior. Again, an odd argument coming from someone who doesn't see race.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

But your above quote makes it pretty clear that your real argument is that the Africans are inferior. Again, an odd argument coming from someone who doesn't see race.

This is the obvious bottom line of the argument astro is making (rejecting socio-historical explanations for the backwardness of parts of Africa), but don't be surprised when he is shocked, SHOCKED and deeply offended that you would call him a racist. He might even tell you about his token black friend(s).

[Noop]

Astro - Your comments are disappointing.

[BYU 14]

Astro - Your comments are disappointing.

+1

[astrosfan64]

You guys can take this anyway you want. I can't stand when people ignore basic facts. The basic facts are humans enslaved humans. There is no need to blame one race or another. If you do that you continue to promote racisim.

Personally, I don't care if you guys think I'm a racist. I know what I am and I know how I feel. I don't need to point to any of my "token" friends to defend myself; we discuss these issues openly and honestly all the time. Some agree and some disagree with my points.

JPhillips you had your idea made up about my point of view before I discussed anything. I don't believe I'm superiour to black people, in fact I find that point laughable. All I did was bring up "facts" to argue my points.

Do I find the United States of America to be superiour to many nations in Africa, Europe, Asia and South America? Absolutely, I believe our culture here actually tries to promote equality. The reason the US is so strong is the mix of races.

People in Africa killed and sold their own people. Yes, it was bad that the early Europian Powers purchased these people. I partially blame Christianity for this. I mean it does discuss in the bible how you can sell your daughter and slaves etc...

If I offended any of you I'm sorry, but it doesn't change my point of view.

If you tell people from an early age, that "white people" enslaved "black people", you are creating the issue.



For example,

I believe if you took 1k of children of all races, raised them in an environment that didn't teach all the past race/religious hatred, that those children would have no clue that they should have preconceived notions about any race or religion.

I'm going to get out of the discussion now. BYU, Noop sorry if I offended you guys.

[Jas_lov]

I don't think astro is racist and I think what he's trying to say is that we should treat each other as individuals and not as belonging to certain groups. The group mentality is what perpetuates racism. You always hear about gays rights, or Blacks rights, or womens rights. But the only rights that should matter are the rights of the invididual and every individual should be treated the same way. I'm not sure I agree about not teaching kids in school that Europeans enslaved Africans because that's what really happened, but I'm not going to call astro a racist for being against assigning people into groups based on skin color. He's right in that regard and I agree with him that we should be thinking of everybody as equal individuals.

[Young Drachma]

Ugh. Too much. Not sure where to start.

[JPhillips]

astros: I certainly didn't have my mind made up. In fact, I only commented because I find your idea that we shouldn't teach the specifics of slavery in the Americas laughable. I'm fine with adding details of other slavery if you wish, but the fact that white European/American land owners enslaved a large number of Africans is the entire point. It doesn't make every white person responsible for the problems of every black, but to ignore the realities of history and white-wash it by saying "humans enslaved humans" just substitutes a bland, morally suspect catch-phrase for the details of history.

Would you be in favor of banning discussion of 9/11 and simply saying humans killed humans?

[astrosfan64]

astros: I certainly didn't have my mind made up. In fact, I only commented because I find your idea that we shouldn't teach the specifics of slavery in the Americas laughable. I'm fine with adding details of other slavery if you wish, but the fact that white European/American land owners enslaved a large number of Africans is the entire point. It doesn't make every white person responsible for the problems of every black, but to ignore the realities of history and white-wash it by saying "humans enslaved humans" just substitutes a bland, morally suspect catch-phrase for the details of history.

Would you be in favor of banning discussion of 9/11 and simply saying humans killed humans?

Actually excellent point. I never looked at it that way in terms of 9/11. I do not believe that we should teach that muslisms were at fault for 9/11. But, I do think that we should teach that a fanatic religious group named Al-Qadi attacked america.

I do not think it is fair that the muslim religion be blamed for the rest of history for 9/11. Just as I don't think it is "fair" that white people be blamed for slaver for the rest of history.

As I said, my family was from Poland. They weren't here during the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th century. So how just because I'm white should I be held responsible for that.


If we need to put "blame" on who was responsible for slavery here in the US. I think it would be better to say. Rich, powerful, ignorant humans bought slaves from other rich, powerful, ingorant humans.

[st.cronin]

Its also worth pointing out that there were white people who considered slavery so appalling that they went to war to end it.

[Crapshoot]

Its also worth pointing out that there were white people who considered slavery so appalling that they went to war to end it.

Its also worth pointing out that many of those Southerners who fought for slavery now insist the Civil War was about freedom, which is why they think that wonderful "Confederate" flag of theirs isn't a racist symbol.

[st.cronin]

Its also worth pointing out that many of those Southerners who fought for slavery now insist the Civil War was about freedom, which is why they think that wonderful "Confederate" flag of theirs isn't a racist symbol.

Well, to be fair, it's more complicated than that. Also I think most of the Southerners who fought for slavery, or whatever they thought they were fighting for, are dead.

[Dutch]

Its also worth pointing out that many of those Southerners who fought for slavery now insist the Civil War was about freedom, which is why they think that wonderful "Confederate" flag of theirs isn't a racist symbol.

By your criteria, the Stars and Bars enjoyed a much longer run as a racist symbol.

[JPhillips]

Actually excellent point. I never looked at it that way in terms of 9/11. I do not believe that we should teach that muslisms were at fault for 9/11. But, I do think that we should teach that a fanatic religious group named Al-Qadi attacked america.

I do not think it is fair that the muslim religion be blamed for the rest of history for 9/11. Just as I don't think it is "fair" that white people be blamed for slaver for the rest of history.

As I said, my family was from Poland. They weren't here during the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th century. So how just because I'm white should I be held responsible for that.


If we need to put "blame" on who was responsible for slavery here in the US. I think it would be better to say. Rich, powerful, ignorant humans bought slaves from other rich, powerful, ingorant humans.

You much more concerned with blame than I am. I'm not singling out any currently living person as responsible for the slave trade. I know that happens, but I'm not making that argument.

What I am saying is that the realities of the slave trade had a lot to do with race. You can't cover that up. Sure there were Africans involved and sure there were whites fighting against slavery. However, the dominate theme is rich, powerful Europeans and later Americans driving the African slave trade. The consequences of that have a profound effect on the history of the US and a number of African nations.

I believe we need to discuss the realities of the slave trade in an honest way. That includes discussion the role of Africans involved, the role of Abolitionists, ect. Putting a blanket of "humans enslaved humans" won't get us anywhere.

[Crapshoot]

By your criteria, the Stars and Bars enjoyed a much longer run as a racist symbol.

Can't have it both ways Dutch - if you believe that the Civil War was fought over slavery alone (thus the sacrifice St. Cronin is referring to), than it takes a particularly impressive bit of verbal gymnastics to suggest that the flag of an entity that fought to preserve a racist, disgusting iinstitution is not in fact a racist symbol itself.

I do recall reading historians (and maybe even posters like Bucc/Blackadar/JIMGA here - can't recall who exactly) who argued that slavery was a part, but many larger issues were at play - and that the civil war was inevitable. I'm inclined to believe slavery was the root cause, although potentially symbolic of a larger federalism issue.

[Buccaneer]

Can't have it both ways Dutch - if you believe that the Civil War was fought over slavery alone (thus the sacrifice St. Cronin is referring to), than it takes a particularly impressive bit of verbal gymnastics to suggest that the flag of an entity that fought to preserve a racist, disgusting iinstitution is not in fact a racist symbol itself.

I do recall reading historians (and maybe even posters like Bucc/Blackadar/JIMGA here - can't recall who exactly) who argued that slavery was a part, but many larger issues were at play - and that the civil war was inevitable. I'm inclined to believe slavery was the root cause, although potentially symbolic of a larger federalism issue.

Yes.

The flag has become a visual symbol of something that is largely intangible. As the Old South became the New South and eventually the No South, there are those wanting something to hold on to, for many reasons. But like a lot of symbols, it gets played up by all sides as something to fight over as oppose to the root of the problem.

[astrosfan64]

You much more concerned with blame than I am. I'm not singling out any currently living person as responsible for the slave trade. I know that happens, but I'm not making that argument.

What I am saying is that the realities of the slave trade had a lot to do with race. You can't cover that up. Sure there were Africans involved and sure there were whites fighting against slavery. However, the dominate theme is rich, powerful Europeans and later Americans driving the African slave trade. The consequences of that have a profound effect on the history of the US and a number of African nations.

I believe we need to discuss the realities of the slave trade in an honest way. That includes discussion the role of Africans involved, the role of Abolitionists, ect. Putting a blanket of "humans enslaved humans" won't get us anywhere.

I agree with your statement, if the past isn't wielded as a weapon. I agree slavery did have a great negative influence to the scocio-enconomic state of black people in america. But if you continue to focus on the reasons of why this happened, assign blame and don't heal and overcome it soon becomes a crutch.

I'm of great belief that America has turned from a country partialy divided by race, into a country more divided by scocio-economic and morality issues. While race issues still exist; you see a much greater positive interaction between races of a similiar class. e.g. A middle class black family and a middle class white family, generally share the same goals, fears and community together. To a point now that the color of the skin no longer divides them as it did 40 years ago.

Every generation is getting better and maybe it is short-sighted of me to think that teaching humans enslaved other humans is part of the solution. But, it is my belief that one day that is exactly what we will teach about the terrible parts of humanity's past.

You've made some good points and I intend to rethink some of thoughts on the issue.

[Dutch]

Can't have it both ways Dutch - if you believe that the Civil War was fought over slavery alone (thus the sacrifice St. Cronin is referring to), than it takes a particularly impressive bit of verbal gymnastics to suggest that the flag of an entity that fought to preserve a racist, disgusting iinstitution is not in fact a racist symbol itself.

I do recall reading historians (and maybe even posters like Bucc/Blackadar/JIMGA here - can't recall who exactly) who argued that slavery was a part, but many larger issues were at play - and that the civil war was inevitable. I'm inclined to believe slavery was the root cause, although potentially symbolic of a larger federalism issue.

Was the Confederate Flag a new design made for secession? I can't remember, but I think it was and that certainly hurts it's cause.

[larrymcg421]

Kinda hard to buy the federalism argument when the Confederacy's own constitution did not allow their states to ban slavery.

[Crapshoot]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/09232007/postopinion/editorials/the_jena_six.htm

When that notorious left-wing paper such as the Post is editorializing that Jena 6 seems like hypocrisy....

[Crapshoot]

Kinda hard to buy the federalism argument when the Confederacy's own constitution did not allow their states to ban slavery.

Wait, you mean they weren't just a bunch of good ol' boys trying to protect their freedom? :D

[JW]

Here is an AP article that tries to show that the Jena Six thing is not a "black and white" as some would have it. Very good story that also counters some myths about the incidents.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070922/ap_on_re_us/a_place_called_jena;_ylt=AtyK8.R9wsKIOmHb1J8z2TNH2ocA

Here is the part I find most interesting. I've read a lot on this, and even though I've read a lot of local stories and forum entries, I still learned a couple of things from this:

Consider:

_The so-called "white tree" at Jena High, often reported to be the domain of only white students, was nothing of the sort, according to teachers and school administrators; students of all races, they say, congregated under it at one time or another.

_Two nooses — not three — were found dangling from the tree. Beyond being offensive to blacks, the nooses were cut down because black and white students "were playing with them, pulling on them, jump-swinging from them, and putting their heads through them," according to a black teacher who witnessed the scene.

_There was no connection between the September noose incident and December attack, according to Donald Washington, an attorney for the U.S. Justice Department in western Louisiana, who investigated claims that these events might be race-related hate crimes.

_The three youths accused of hanging the nooses were not suspended for just three days — they were isolated at an alternative school for about a month, and then given an in-school suspension for two weeks.

_The six-member jury that convicted Bell was, indeed, all white. However, only one in 10 people in LaSalle Parish is African American, and though black residents were selected randomly by computer and summoned for jury selection, none showed up.

Let me say again though what I said earlier. It is clear that white kids received better treatment from authorities than black kids in this series of incidents and that there are lots of problems in Jena. But this is not exactly the pure case of racial hatred that Al and Jesse would have us think.

And then there is this on youtube. I've checked this out with someone who knows some Jena faculty. This is real.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REVpThW8g9A&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Etigerroar%2Ecom%2Falley%2Fbin%2F1739974%2Ephp

[Bubba Wheels]

Was the Confederate Flag a new design made for secession? I can't remember, but I think it was and that certainly hurts it's cause.

Fact is, most Americans are so ignorant of U.S. history due to public education that they wouldn't even recognize the real Confederate Flag. The one they see all the time is the "battle flag", created because the Confederate Flag itself was too similar to the U.S. flag on the battlefield.

In other words, if folks flew the actual Confederate Flag no one would even notice.

[Raiders Army]

Fact is, most Americans are so ignorant of U.S. history due to public education that they wouldn't even recognize the real Confederate Flag. The one they see all the time is the "battle flag", created because the Confederate Flag itself was too similar to the U.S. flag on the battlefield.

In other words, if folks flew the actual Confederate Flag no one would even notice.

If you had substituted "battle flag" with "the flag on the top of the General Lee" you might have a pretty good argument.

[Noop]

Its also worth pointing out that there were white people who considered slavery so appalling that they went to war to end it.

If you think Abe Lincoln weny to war because of slavery then I have some swamp land for sale if your interested.

[st.cronin]

If you think Abe Lincoln weny to war because of slavery then I have some swamp land for sale if your interested.

I wasn't talking about Abe Lincoln. But you don't have to look very hard in the history books to find people, both in and out of government, who were eager to abolish slavery, by means of war if necessary.

[Noop]

I wasn't talking about Abe Lincoln. But you don't have to look very hard in the history books to find people, both in and out of government, who were eager to abolish slavery, by means of war if necessary.

I know there were people who wanted to end slavery, I thought you meant Lincoln because you mentioned war.

[st.cronin]

I know there were people who wanted to end slavery, I thought you meant Lincoln because you mentioned war.

I was thinking mostly of the people who enlisted, who were in many cases actually killed or maimed.

[Passacaglia]

Fact is, most Americans are so ignorant of U.S. history due to public education that they wouldn't even recognize the real Confederate Flag. The one they see all the time is the "battle flag", created because the Confederate Flag itself was too similar to the U.S. flag on the battlefield.

In other words, if folks flew the actual Confederate Flag no one would even notice.

That's an interesting complaint. So you think it should be a high priority that public education should teach everyone what the real Confederate Flag is?

[Bubba Wheels]

That's an interesting complaint. So you think it should be a high priority that public education should teach everyone what the real Confederate Flag is?

Is the Conderate Flag a relevant thing being discussed in today's world? If so, wouldn't some accuracy regarding the subject be expected from our institutions of learning? Maybe if Jefferson Davis had two mommies, huh? ;)

[Passacaglia]

Is the Conderate Flag a relevant thing being discussed in today's world? If so, wouldn't some accuracy regarding the subject be expected from our institutions of learning? Maybe if Jefferson Davis had two mommies, huh? ;)

Not if all the discussion about the fact amounts to no more than "well that's not the real flag anyway"

[Bubba Wheels]

Not if all the discussion about the fact amounts to no more than "well that's not the real flag anyway"

So, is it ok to fly either, both or none in your book?

[Passacaglia]

So, is it ok to fly either, both or none in your book?

In my book? They're just rectangles.