Another "advice wanted" post

[Butter]

I know you guys love 'em. It's like a car wreck... you just can't turn away.

I get a call this morning, and it's my brother. My brother is 37. He is currently going through rehab for addiction to painkillers and alcohol. He is getting a divorce from his wife. He has 3 daughters: 15, 12, and 10 who still live with his mother. I recently reconciled with him due to his personal difficulty because I wanted to give him moral support, but before then I didn't have much to do with him because he was so self-involved he couldn't be bothered to give me the time of day, let alone remember to keep any "appointments" he had with me.

So he calls me up this morning and says he got his car repossessed last night. This is his 2nd repo in approx. 6 years. Then the other shoe drops, and he asks if I might have any money for a down payment on another car. I say no, because honestly, I don't. I have some money in a 401(k) that is untouchable. But I have no real savings. I am paying off debt, and am living week-to-week myself. Only this year have I really been able to stay on top of all my bills and am paying some of them off.

Then he asks if I would co-sign a loan on a car for him. I say I would have to talk to my wife, which is the truth. But the warning signs in my head say "no f'ing way". He needs a car for his job which requires him driving around the state and training people on software. But I cannot see justifying putting myself thousands of dollars potentially in the hole by co-signing a loan for someone who up until now has shown no ability to keep anything up through this point in his life.

I know he needs a leg up at some point... but he also needs to take personal responsibility at some point as well. I have offered him my home as a place to stay while he is trying to get his life back together, but I cannot see putting money on the line that I do not have, and that I couldn't pay either in this situation.

What do you think? Is this a clear "no"? How should I break the news to him?

[albionmoonlight]

It is a clear no. The odds are he will default on the loan. Which means that you are lending him money that you do not have. That, to me, is beyond the call of duty.

As for breaking the news, I am not so good at that. I would emphasize what you are offering him (a place to stay, etc.), but note that you cannot give him money that you do not have.

Also, watch out. Substance abuse is a powerful thing. My sister's husband had a brother that stole his credit cards and ran up crazy debt on them taking out cash advances. And, because my sister's husband couldn't bring himself to press charges and put his brother in jail, he had to pay off all that debt and get his credit back to normal.

The short lesson here is that I don't think that you can trust anyone who has a substance abuse problem and needs money--not even your family. Just my own humble opinion.

Good luck. Thoughts and prayers are with you.

[CraigSca]

Hmm...tough one.

Well, you know if you co-sign, you have to believe he's going to repeat the same process, except you'll be on the docket for the money this time. You have to EXPECT this to happen. The other thing to think about is that this "extra" money you co-signed for will be on your credit line - so if you want to borrow money of your own, the banks will treat this as your loan.

Personally, I don't think it sounds like you're in a situation where you can be this charitable. Either way, this will end with either you mad at your brother (when he eventually defaults) or him mad at you (if you refuse). I'd take the least expensive route.

How much money was he asking for as a down payment?

[albionmoonlight]

another thing--

You note that you are married. To me, that is a huge consideration. If you were single, you might say, "I know he will screw me over, but fuck it, he's my brother and blood is thicker than water, and I will take that chance." I would, personally, call that noble but misguided. But it would be totally your decision.

Now, you have another person in the equation. A person with whom you made a promise to share your life in front of all of your friends and family. Her position on the matter cannot be ignored, whatever it is.

[CU Tiger]

I would NEVER co-sign for a loan.
You would be better off taking the loan out in your name and paying it youself and allow him to pay you when he feels like it. that is what will happen eventually anyway and you will also end up with lates and misses against you.

Think about it like this. Credit is the most highly marketed product in our society. Here you have a bank that their sole existancce is based on selling their product (credit) they spend m,illions a year to determine who will and who wont pay their bills. All their research has leed them to believe that they make more money NOT DOING BUSINESS with your brother then they would doing business with him. Who are you to say you are smarter than the bank about their own product?

Spritiually (if you follow those inclinations) the Bible says, "Only those lacking in sense sign surity for another"

And finally you add in the addict part. An addict is a liar by definition. They will lie tto anyone at anytime about anything to continue their addiction. Add an addict to the credit mess and Id stay away from this situation like a Mike Vick owned rabid Pitbull with HIV.


As to explaining your position to your brother. That to me is personal. Without knowing your relationship its hard for me to say. if it was me I would tell him "No I think I will be doing more harm than good".

I guess its all in how you define "help".
In this casethe best "help" for him may be to make him struggle and figure it out on his own. Giving an alcoholic a drink isnt help.

Good luck. You are in my prayers, hope you find the peace you are ssearching for.

[Lathum]

As tough as it can be I have to agree with the others and say no way.

IMO what you need to realize is if you co sign with him you are going to be is essence purchasing the car yourself. You will feel the need to moniter the payments to make sure he doesn't fall back, etc...

I think the better route if you can is to buy him a cheap car 2-3K and make him show he can repay you for that to prove he can be responsible about it.

The only other thing I can think is co sign with him but keep a close eye on the payments and make it clear to him if he is late on any payments YOU will take the car from him and sell it before it can screw you, this may be a hassel to you but could be the path of least resistance, however I am sure you realize if you do this you will almost surely take a lose on the car.

[Butter]

How much money was he asking for as a down payment?

He didn't specify, I just said "no" straight out to that. It would be money I don't have.

[Radii]

But I have no real savings. I am paying off debt, and am living week-to-week myself. Only this year have I really been able to stay on top of all my bills and am paying some of them off.


This makes it a clear, no brainer 'no'. 2 car repos in 6 years? And his immediate response to a car repo is to want to borrow money for a loan for a new car? That wouldn't sit well with me at all.

The only way I could ever see you being able to justify loaning him money would be if you were financially independent(no debt, good savings) and could truly do it with zero expectation or need of ever seeing the money again, and that's clearly not the case here.

Offering him a place to stay is extending a huge helping hand and exposing yourself to a good amount of risk already(see above stories about addiction in other posts).

On a side note, dammit i wish I could follow my own advice more often.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Time for some hard love. I've been through this all before with a family member's friend.

1. Loan or any financial help is an absolute no. That money will be gone forever and your financials will be the one to take a hit. It's also enabling his financial misbehavior by putting a band-aid on something that is much worse.

2. Do not invite him into your home on any permanent basis. It's the same thing as above. Your only stretching out the length of time it takes for him to realize that he truly needs help. Until he addresses his financial and dependency problems directly, you've got to keep him away from your family unit. You could easily end up with a wrecked family life and still have a brother who is no further along the road to recovery.

Talk on the phone and offer to get him help. That's what he needs right now. The best thing you can do for him right now is to get him some treatment and financial counseling ASAP.

[lordscarlet]

I would say "no." Really, if he has a job like that, he should have pushed for a car from them when he got the job, if you ask me. But, to me this is a "no." It sucks for him, but you are not in a position to get screwed.

[Suburban Rhythm]

another thing--

You note that you are married. To me, that is a huge consideration. If you were single, you might say, "I know he will screw me over, but fuck it, he's my brother and blood is thicker than water, and I will take that chance." I would, personally, call that noble but misguided. But it would be totally your decision.

Now, you have another person in the equation. A person with whom you made a promise to share your life in front of all of your friends and family. Her position on the matter cannot be ignored, whatever it is.

This was my first thought too. He screws up, not only are you on the hook, so is she.

Offering a place to stay SHOULD be a help. If he accepts that, and somehow screws that up (coming home bombed, etc) then I think you can safely assume he'd have destroyed you financially too had your helped out there.
If he accpets your offer, and is clean respectful for awhile (no idea how long you offered him a place for), then maybe you re-visit it.

Finally, you don't mention kids. You wife might be hard enough to convince, but if there are kids involved, I'd say it's ALL a no-go, including a place to stay.

[Eaglesfan27]

It is a clear no. The odds are he will default on the loan. Which means that you are lending him money that you do not have. That, to me, is beyond the call of duty.

As for breaking the news, I am not so good at that. I would emphasize what you are offering him (a place to stay, etc.), but note that you cannot give him money that you do not have.

Also, watch out. Substance abuse is a powerful thing. My sister's husband had a brother that stole his credit cards and ran up crazy debt on them taking out cash advances. And, because my sister's husband couldn't bring himself to press charges and put his brother in jail, he had to pay off all that debt and get his credit back to normal.

The short lesson here is that I don't think that you can trust anyone who has a substance abuse problem and needs money--not even your family. Just my own humble opinion.

Good luck. Thoughts and prayers are with you.

I would second every thing in this post. I've worked with hundreds of substance abusers as their doctor, and it is a terrible disease. It is understandable that family members want to help, but I think family members need to be careful and take care of themselves as well.

[Toddiec]

This has been stated above but I want to put emphasis on this point. When I have people come into my office with this kind of situation(I am a loan officer and this happens very frequently unfortunately) I always pull the second party aside and tell them that if they have even a SMALL doubt that the primary borrower could possibly have difficulty paying the loan then they should not co-sign. If they continue along that path it is my job to let them know that they need to be prepared to pay the payment along with dealing with any credit problems that are caused by this if the primary defaults. Interestingly enough, most of the damage done by loans like this are the credit problems caused by being over 30 days late on payments repeatedly (frequent) and not so much the charge-off/repo (not as frequent).

One other point I want to bring up is that even with a co-borrower there is no guarantee he will get the loan. There are a lot of lending institutions that don't put as much stock in the co-borrower anymore becuase you are not lending to the co-borrower, you are still lending to the primary borrower who in this case has a horrible history. The co-borrower is a fallback option, but if it gets to the point where you have to bring in the co-borrower to make payment the loan has become a problem. Our Fed Examiners love it when we tell them that sure the primary is crap, but look at that co-borrower!! Banks don't like loans which could become a problem, which is what this item has all the sypmtoms of becoming, co-borrower or not.

Now, he may have some options that he can pursue. There are several "questionable credit" lenders and dealers out there that he can talk to. Pretty much anyone in this country can get a car loan, you just have to find a place that is hurting for loans and/or has lower requirements than the norm. Now, they are going to charge an obscene interest rate, auto-debit an account, etc. etc. to try to compensate for the risk, but unfortunately that is the only realistic ladder out of the hole this guy has dug himself into.

[stevew]

If he lives in ohio, can't he just buy a 700 beater and pay cash? That'd at least keep him going for now. It's not like it has to pass inspection or anything.

[stevew]

dola, My brother in law's is in a serious mess with his whore wife and gangbanger kids, and might come to stay with us for awhile. Look for a thread in the upcoming weeks.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

dola, My brother in law's is in a serious mess with his whore wife and gangbanger kids, and might come to stay with us for awhile. Look for a thread in the upcoming weeks.

I smell a dynasty thread.

[cubboyroy1826]

I would also have to say no way because you have your family to think about. If you had the extra cash, took out the loan in your name and could afford to make the payments when your brother stops making them then you open up another can of worms. What if your brother has a "bad day" and winds up involved in a bad accident that involves "your car", not you have to look at your liability at stake. It is tough to do but at most i would go with the beater idea.

[stevew]

I am not related to Andy Reid btw.

[Gallifrey]

I would second every thing in this post. I've worked with hundreds of substance abusers as their doctor, and it is a terrible disease. It is understandable that family members want to help, but I think family members need to be careful and take care of themselves as well.

Believe me...don't co-sign that loan. You will regret it.

[lighthousekeeper]

If he lives in ohio, can't he just buy a 700 beater and pay cash? That'd at least keep him going for now. It's not like it has to pass inspection or anything.

exactly. it makes no sense to spend more than $1500 on a car if you have no money. buy a $1000 car on ebay and drive it into the ground. he only needs it to last a few months until he gets a couple pay checks and can then afford to buy a better used car.

[Lorena]

First of all, your wife agreed to have your brother live in your pad temporarily WITH an addiction problem? Wow, you're both kind-hearted souls cuz I don't think I could do that. As far as the loan, well, I'd say absolutely no.... you're already living paycheck to paycheck and chances are you're the one that'll get screwed on that deal.. don't do it.

I think a little bit of tough love for your bro is in order here. Gluck, I'd love to hear an update.

[Butter]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful posts. The good thoughts and help are appreciated. I will update as needed.