The axe falls again...[UPDATE - axe brushed aside!]

[Toddzilla]

I got laid-off from Sun Microsystems this morning - just about 6 years to the date they laid me off the first time. Back in 2001, I was working for Sun Professional Services at a time when they were losing tons of money, watching their stock fall from $190 to $3, so they instituted layoffs for the first time ever. I got the axe.

This go-round, I was part of Sun Managed Ops, formerly an independent company called Sevenspace. I joined Sevenspace in 2003 when they were a small 100-person shop that did remote management. Sun decided they wanted to do that too, so they bought Sevenspace 2 years ago, took the technology, and have been slowly getting rid of the key players. A few months ago Sun announced they were opening a new NOC identical to the one here in Ashburn, Virginia. In India. To be operated by a third-party. That made a bunch of us "redundant", so after I finished training my counterparts (the last con-call to wrap things up was Wednesday), they let me go.

Oh, the severance package sucks ass, too.

[flere-imsaho]

Sorry to hear that bad news - sounds sucky all the way around.

[astrosfan64]

I got laid-off from Sun Microsystems this morning - just about 6 years to the date they laid me off the first time. Back in 2001, I was working for Sun Professional Services at a time when they were losing tons of money, watching their stock fall from $190 to $3, so they instituted layoffs for the first time ever. I got the axe.

This go-round, I was part of Sun Managed Ops, formerly an independent company called Sevenspace. I joined Sevenspace in 2003 when they were a small 100-person shop that did remote management. Sun decided they wanted to do that too, so they bought Sevenspace 2 years ago, took the technology, and have been slowly getting rid of the key players. A few months ago Sun announced they were opening a new NOC identical to the one here in Ashburn, Virginia. In India. To be operated by a third-party. That made a bunch of us "redundant", so after I finished training my counterparts (the last con-call to wrap things up was Wednesday), they let me go.

Oh, the severance package sucks ass, too.

Sorry to hear that my friend.

Where do you live at, I'm hiring here in Houston, TX for all types of IT and Support related jobs.

[Passacaglia]

That sucks, dude.

[Lathum]

Thats brutal man, sorry to hear it

[Young Drachma]

Sorry Todd. Hang in there.

[MikeVic]

:(

[johnnyshaka]

Sorry to hear that, Todd.

Advice...take a printer and go Office Space on it!!!

[wade moore]

Sad to hear Todd.

I'm not sure what your exact skillset is or if you might be willing to make the short move down this direction, but I know we're looking for some Solaris types here... PM me if you happen to want more info.

[CraigSca]

Sorry to hear this, Todd - have you spoken to any Sun partners about possible positions? They're always looking for solid Sun people - especially in your area (D.C.-ish).

[King of New York]

Sorry to hear that.

Hope something good turns up for you soon!

[Karlifornia]

The sun sets not every evening, but twice every sixth year...or some shit...


Sorry about the tough luck.

[Lorena]

Dang that sucks Todd... sorry to hear that. Some positions here are also going to India.

Sorry to hear that my friend.

Where do you live at, I'm hiring here in Houston, TX for all types of IT and Support related jobs.

That would be cool... Houston is a 3 hour drive from here... come to Texas! :)

[Subby]

Hang in there, Todd... :(

[gkb]

Sorry man...getting laid off sucks. Hang in there.

[SunDevil]

Hang in there Todd.

[MikeVic]

http://www.chroniclebooks.com/site/catalog/images/items/0811839/0811839974/0811839974_norm.jpg

[Butter]

Sorry, Todd... hope things turn around for you immediately, if not sooner. :)

[Icy]

Sorry to read this Todd. It really sucks that good professionals everywhere are fired because there is cheaper labor (and usually abused) in other countries, i guess it's the price of globalization.

[JPhillips]

That sucks. How does this effect your healthcare? I would imagine that is as much or a bigger concern than the salary for you.

Good luck on finding a new job.

[CamEdwards]

Damn. Sorry to hear about this. Feel free to PM me if you need anything.

[Eaglesfan27]

That sucks. How does this effect your healthcare? I would imagine that is as much or a bigger concern than the salary for you.

Good luck on finding a new job.


Ouch, I didn't even think of this aspect of it until you mentioned it. Anyway, I just wanted to add my well wishes, Todd. I hope you find a better job and that you find it very quickly.

[Tekneek]

Oh, the severance package sucks ass, too.

What kind of severance package are you getting?

I'm being laid off from my job of approximately 9 years on the Friday before Christmas. My severance package is roughly about 38% of my yearly salary plus whatever my share of the corporate bonus may be when that pays out in March/April. Not fantastic, but not as awful as some people have been stuck with. We just had our third child at the end of July, so I have to be concerned with getting a family of 5 under insurance at the beginning of the new year... :(

I love how the economy is so wonderful while I know tens of thousands have lost their jobs in the second half of this year.

[CraigSca]

Heh, my package was 2 weeks + 1 week for each year of service. Oh, and my COBRA payment is due on the 17th of October for $1500. Unreal.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Dang...

[terpkristin]

Wow, very sorry to hear that, Todd. I don't know exactly what you do, but if you are looking to stay in the area and find a job that looks interesting at Orbital (http://www.orbital.com), please let me know, and I can pass your resume along.

/tk

[Toddzilla]

THANK YOU to all the well-wishers who have stopped by to lend some kind words. I'm buying each of you a beer. Promise.

I'm technically on the payroll for another 60-days so I can search for another position inside or outside the company. During that time I still get full benefits and all that jazz - which is kinda nice because our current employee-stock-purchase period ends on October 15, so I'll still collect on that. My wife is covered by her (better) plan at her job, as is my daughter. She can also add me to her plan now that I've lost my job, so health insurance isn't an issue at all - thank goodness.

As for severance, I'm being offered one week of pay for every year I've worked here - so that's 4 weeks. I'm going to ask that they accelerate the vesting on my unvested stock-options which would net me approx. 2-weeks more pay. Severance is supposedly negotiable, but we'll see. I can't imagine I've got any leverage whatsoever.

The DC-area meet-and-greet is looking pretty good so long as there is gonna be beer... :)

[TroyF]

What kind of severance package are you getting?

I'm being laid off from my job of approximately 9 years on the Friday before Christmas. My severance package is roughly about 38% of my yearly salary plus whatever my share of the corporate bonus may be when that pays out in March/April. Not fantastic, but not as awful as some people have been stuck with. We just had our third child at the end of July, so I have to be concerned with getting a family of 5 under insurance at the beginning of the new year... :(

I love how the economy is so wonderful while I know tens of thousands have lost their jobs in the second half of this year.


Seems to be happening everywhere. :( Our company was bought out a few months ago. Nobody really knows what's going to happen. I wouldn't be shocked to walk in and be told I'm exiting stage left in a month or two. I hope it doesn't happen. I really like this job.

I feel for all of you guys who are going through this. Good luck to all of you.

[Rizon]

I'm working for a company that laid me off in 2000 (I returned this year). We're looking at a major loss of income, so I'm getting a little worried that it will happen again.

[MizzouRah]

If you're interested in IT (mostly deskside laptop/desktop/printer support) shoot me a resume. I work our Verizon contract and I know we have a site in Asburn.

I'm not sure if we're currently hiring down there, but I can forward your resume if you would like. Shoot me a PM and I'll give you my work email address.

That sucks though.... seems like the IT field is all going over to India. The Verizon helpdesk has moved over there already.

[Lorena]

THANK YOU to all the well-wishers who have stopped by to lend some kind words. I'm buying each of you a beer. Promise.

I'm technically on the payroll for another 60-days so I can search for another position inside or outside the company. During that time I still get full benefits and all that jazz - which is kinda nice because our current employee-stock-purchase period ends on October 15, so I'll still collect on that. My wife is covered by her (better) plan at her job, as is my daughter. She can also add me to her plan now that I've lost my job, so health insurance isn't an issue at all - thank goodness.

As for severance, I'm being offered one week of pay for every year I've worked here - so that's 4 weeks. I'm going to ask that they accelerate the vesting on my unvested stock-options which would net me approx. 2-weeks more pay. Severance is supposedly negotiable, but we'll see. I can't imagine I've got any leverage whatsoever.

The DC-area meet-and-greet is looking pretty good so long as there is gonna be beer... :)

It's in writing, I'm taking you up on that offer ;)

I'm glad to hear insurance won't be an issue and that you have 60 days to find something else.

[Tekneek]

I'm technically on the payroll for another 60-days so I can search for another position inside or outside the company. During that time I still get full benefits and all that jazz - which is kinda nice because our current employee-stock-purchase period ends on October 15, so I'll still collect on that. My wife is covered by her (better) plan at her job, as is my daughter. She can also add me to her plan now that I've lost my job, so health insurance isn't an issue at all - thank goodness.

They have to give 60 days notice of these big events thanks to a federal law. Sorry to hear about this, though. There is a lot of people out there going through the same thing right now, but I don't know if that is really a good thing or not (more competition).

Sounds like you're going to be able to get through it alright. In the case of my wife, she stays at home with the kids, so there is no other coverage that kicks in. She was laid off a few years back and just decided to care for the kids.

[Tekneek]

That sucks though.... seems like the IT field is all going over to India. The Verizon helpdesk has moved over there already.

My employer is actually complaining that Indians are too expensive these days. They are talking about going to Kenya.

They outsourced a lot of internal helpdesk stuff to India through some company called NIIT, and these people can barely speak English. I can't wait for the Kenyan experiment to start...but I probably won't be there to "enjoy" that.

[Chief Rum]

THANK YOU to all the well-wishers who have stopped by to lend some kind words. I'm buying each of you a beer. Promise.

Hey, hey! So sorry to hear about your troubles, Toddzilla. :)

Okay, seriously, hope that made you laugh. First time I was around to see the thread. Sorry this is happening to you.

I was laid off by the LA Times with 199 other community news workers (mostly reporters, unit editors and photogs out in the community) in late 2000 after Times Mirror was bought by the Trib (the media conglom that owns the Cubs). Seems they felt the LA Times should be a cosmopolitan newspaper and had no room for community news. :(

But I bounced back, and I'm sure you will, too.

Never asked, how's your shoulder? Is that better at least? Hope otherwise things are going good for you.

[JPhillips]

No way you're buying as long as you're out of work. I doubt it matters now that I've moved out of the metro area, but if you end up in central Indiana for any reason stop by the house and drink as much of my beer as you'd like.

Glad to hear health insurance isn't a big problem. Having been laid off a couple of times myself that always jumps to the front of my mind when I hear someone else has lost their job.

[MizzouRah]

My employer is actually complaining that Indians are too expensive these days. They are talking about going to Kenya.

They outsourced a lot of internal helpdesk stuff to India through some company called NIIT, and these people can barely speak English. I can't wait for the Kenyan experiment to start...but I probably won't be there to "enjoy" that.

Tell me about it. The users hate calling the helpdesk and unfortunetly deal with issues for far too long because my company gets paid per ticket. :(

This field has REALLY changed since I started 11 years ago.

[wade moore]

Tell me about it. The users hate calling the helpdesk and unfortunetly deal with issues for far too long because my company gets paid per ticket. :(

This field has REALLY changed since I started 11 years ago.

w0rd.

I got into my first help desk on a federal government contract about 5 years ago and that's the way to go. It is generally written into the contract (or required by law?) that the Help Desk has to be in the US. The small help desk i run now has zero risk of being sourced out of the country.

[MizzouRah]

w0rd.

I got into my first help desk on a federal government contract about 5 years ago and that's the way to go. It is generally written into the contract (or required by law?) that the Help Desk has to be in the US. The small help desk i run now has zero risk of being sourced out of the country.

You're lucky. ;)

It's funny though.. companies like Verizon, Dell, HP, etc.. preach about customer service, yet they outsource their own EMPLOYEE helpdesk and it's terrible.

[astrosfan64]

You're lucky. ;)

It's funny though.. companies like Verizon, Dell, HP, etc.. preach about customer service, yet they outsource their own EMPLOYEE helpdesk and it's terrible.

Outsourced customer service makes sense. You can have 3 to 4 times the amount of people that can provide the same level of service for the same amount of money. I hate the fact, that I actually agree with the business sense of this.

But a level 1 helpdesk person can be in India and still do as good as a job as a level 1 helpdesk person in the US.

What alot of companies do is outsource the level 1 help desk, but keep the level 2 in the states.

[wade moore]

Outsourced customer service makes sense. You can have 3 to 4 times the amount of people that can provide the same level of service for the same amount of money. I hate the fact, that I actually agree with the business sense of this.

But a level 1 helpdesk person can be in India and still do as good as a job as a level 1 helpdesk person in the US.

What alot of companies do is outsource the level 1 help desk, but keep the level 2 in the states.
I don't think "same level of service" means what you think it means.

[astrosfan64]

I don't think "same level of service" means what you think it means.

Yes it does. In fact the average American who lands a level 1 job as a support technician is a complete tool. These are people who graduated from ITT technical or pick your local tech school, doesn't know shit about computers beyond their two years of BS.

Your average Indian, usually has a four year degree in computer science. I'm one of those assholes who deals with outsourcing and I have to say it has been incredibly sucessful for our business.

We just sent a program offshore for development to India. The program we wrote would of cost us four times the amount of money to be developed in the US. They had 28 programmers working on the project, where if we would of kept it in the states we maybe had the budget for about 6 programmers.

[CraigSca]

This might be true, but I have to question your sensitivity when you post this in a thread started by a person who lost his job because of this.

[wade moore]

Yes it does. In fact the average American who lands a level 1 job as a support technician is a complete tool. These are people who graduated from ITT technical or pick your local tech school, doesn't know shit about computers beyond their two years of BS.

Your average Indian, usually has a four year degree in computer science. I'm one of those assholes who deals with outsourcing and I have to say it has been incredibly sucessful for our business.

We just sent a program offshore for development to India. The program we wrote would of cost us four times the amount of money to be developed in the US. They had 28 programmers working on the project, where if we would of kept it in the states we maybe had the budget for about 6 programmers.

Programmers and Help Desk technicians are completely different ballgames.

I don't know your background, but I have been in Help Desk for over a decade and spent the last 6 or so of it in Management. You are just simply off-base here despite what appear to be "Help Desk people are a bunch of morons" bias.

[GoldenEagle]

Sorry to hear that Todd.

When I read about stuff like this, I don't mind working for a small web development shop. I know I could go out and get a higher paying job elsewhere (even here in Little Rock). But the security of not having to worry about layoffs is nice.

[Rizon]

I don't think the help desks in India are all that bad. Sure, they never help me with my problem, but it's always great to talk to a guy named Bob or Charles who I can barely understand.

[Tekneek]

Your average Indian, usually has a four year degree in computer science. I'm one of those assholes who deals with outsourcing and I have to say it has been incredibly sucessful for our business.

I'm glad you have had a good experience with it. Mine has been quite the opposite, where we ended up feeling most of the people we have tried to work with over there completely misrepresented themselves. In every situation where work was offshored, my employer has reduced all "success criteria" for them compared to what the standard was when it was done here. To me, that reveals a truth that few want to admit or address when bullshitting about the wonders of offshoring.

[Tekneek]

I don't know your background, but I have been in Help Desk for over a decade and spent the last 6 or so of it in Management. You are just simply off-base here despite what appear to be "Help Desk people are a bunch of morons" bias.

This is one of the talking points for many pro-offshoring people. I've heard it and read it many times. Another one used often, that really blows my mind, is when they start claiming that Americans don't want these jobs. All the bullshit about "highly educated and trained workforce" goes against my personal experiences, as well as knowing with certainty that most offshoring initiatives are not intended to "maintain the same level of quality" as those they are replacing (despite what executives/companies may say to the public.) It is a cost-reducing move where they routinely change the rules in order to make it look successful since executives tell them to "make it work" (which is code for "your job is on the line if you don't make this look pretty for us.")

[Mota]

Sorry to read this Todd. It really sucks that good professionals everywhere are fired because there is cheaper labor (and usually abused) in other countries, i guess it's the price of globalization.

Yeah it really sucks. My company outsourced a ton of IT jobs last year. Result is, these people do not understand the business, they have no problem solving skills, anytime there's a slight deviance from the formula the entire process stops and the sales team in Canada is expected to resolve things (even though we usually know nothing about EDI programming). We went from 20 projects open to 400 projects open within 6 months because they couldn't finish any of them, and then we ended up rehiring a bunch of the people that were laid off.

I really do believe that you get what you pay for. Sorry to hear about you losing your job and hope you can find something new quickly.

And I hope the 3rd party company they brought on to take over your position tanks.

[Subby]

Yes it does. In fact the average American who lands a level 1 job as a support technician is a complete tool. These are people who graduated from ITT technical or pick your local tech school, doesn't know shit about computers beyond their two years of BS.

Your average Indian, usually has a four year degree in computer science. I'm one of those assholes who deals with outsourcing and I have to say it has been incredibly sucessful for our business.

We just sent a program offshore for development to India. The program we wrote would of cost us four times the amount of money to be developed in the US. They had 28 programmers working on the project, where if we would of kept it in the states we maybe had the budget for about 6 programmers.
Ping: Asshole.

Take it to another thread.

[astrosfan64]

Ping: Asshole.

Take it to another thread.

Agreed, I was arguing a point and I shouldn't of brought it into this thread.

Sorry Todd.

[Arles]

Sorry to hear about this, Todd. Just an aside on the issue, but there were two developers at my company 5 years ago that I worked with on a software project. One of the guys got laid off, while the other has stayed all 5 years. The one who got laid off is now managing an entire project team at a very nice company (for about double what he was making), while the guy who stayed is making his 2-3% raise each season but at the same technical level.

I talked with the guy that left two weeks ago and we both agree that he would still be right next to the guy that never left had he not been laid off. So, you never know what opportunities will open up and keep your chin up. In this economic climate, most layoffs are a result of things the employees let go could never control and rarely are related to the actual performance of the employee involved. Other hiring managers know this as well and don't penalize applicants accordingly.

Good luck to you and let me know if you are ever interested in the Phoenix area.

[Toddzilla]

Ping: Asshole.

Take it to another thread.

Agreed, I was arguing a point and I shouldn't of brought it into this thread.

Sorry Todd.No harm, no foul, fellas. Even though I've now got a big axe to grind over outsourcing, I understand the business end of things. I should say, I understand how upper-management can make the mistake to believe moves like this actually save them money. Our company also outsourced the internal help-desk and it has been a running joke what a miserable failure it has been.

Pretty much all Tier-1 support has its problems - they are by design of the lowest technical skill so they depend on pre-written procedural scripts to follow and (again, generally) don't have the common sense to work outside the script.

In my case, I am Tier-4 support - I get the big f'n problems when they crop up as well as attend to proactive maintenance to keep the big problems at bay. One of the hallmarks of the quality of my work (and the other T4 guys in my office) is that we take "noisy" customer environments and sort them out until they operate smoothly, and the problems they do have are well documented so T1-T3 can knock 'em out. The off-shore group employs Tier-1 through Tier-3 personnel - at least in title - and they are going to be expected to resolve all kinds of sticky issues. Problem is, they can't. You can send a guy to school for decades and give them all kinds of certifications and degrees, but if they don't have the experience dealing with customers - often angry or panicky - and problems in a real-time situation, they're worthless. And if the customer doesn't have faith in the support they're getting - whether that be from actual experience or the perceived value because the voice on the other end of the phone has a thick accent - they're gonna leave. And when customers leave, your company loses money.

[Toddzilla]

Never asked, how's your shoulder? Is that better at least? Hope otherwise things are going good for you.Glad you asked...

I'm going to physical therapy this morning. I saw the doctor for a follow-up yesterday because my shoulder gets a little better, then a lot worse. Moving my neck is very painful, so the doctor prescribed a muscle-relaxer and a pain reliever. Flexoril + Vicodin is a sweet ride. That should explain my rambling post above :)

[Warhammer]

Sorry to hear this. I expect I will be joining the ranks in another month. Good luck finding a job, but from what I have seen, there are a ton of openings for IT out there right now.

[Marc Vaughan]

Sorry to hear about your job - hope something comes up soon.

[lordscarlet]

The DC-area meet-and-greet is looking pretty good so long as there is gonna be beer... :)

I didn't get to read all the responses, but as far as I'm concerned you're not paying for anything Saturday. :)

[sterlingice]

A few years ago, my dad got to train his replacement from Brazil for 6 months before he was replaced :sigh: (oh, and they wanted him available as a consultant for the next year after he was laid off... um, yeah...)

SI

[Tekneek]

(oh, and they wanted him available as a consultant for the next year after he was laid off... um, yeah...)

Depending on the new hourly rate for that, it could be acceptable...say 3x current hourly wage (derived from salary) at a minimum. ;)

[Toddzilla]

UPDATE!

I had an interview last week, it went very well, and I was offered a position today! Whoo-hoo! I'm going to accept and start work at the end of November when I'm off the payroll the company that let me go.

I'm VERY happy about this - the new company is great, not too big, fantastic people, better commute, and I've got basically a 5-week paid vacation (on the old employer) before I start.

[Passacaglia]

Congrats, man!!

[Eaglesfan27]

Wonderful news! Congrats :)

[wade moore]

w00t!

[Swaggs]

Glad to hear it--I know that you were due some good karma.

[JPhillips]

Good news, the shorter commute is reason enough to celebrate.

[terpkristin]

Really glad to hear that, Todd! Fantastic news. :)

/tk

[CamEdwards]

That's fantastic news, Todd! Congrats!

[Young Drachma]

Good stuff. Congrats!

[sterlingice]

Awesome :D

SI