Ever get the feeling Bush is going down as either the greatest President ever or a...

[AgPete]

...disaster of a President?

Who needs the U.N.? If the U.S. finds weapons of mass destruction, avoids a bloody urban fight in Baghdad and reveals damaging evidence that links Iraq to terrorism after the invasion, our opponents in the U.N. won't look credible but if we ignore the U.N. and Iraq becomes a disaster....

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/04/sprj.irq.main/index.html

BTW, if President Bush single-handedly makes the U.N. irrelevant, there are going to be thousands of disillusioned militia members in Montana and Idaho that won't know what to dedicate their life to anymore now that the black helicopters aren't coming. :D

I give Bush credit for having the balls to deal with North Korea with our military instead of being extorted but unlike Iraq, North Korea HAS the nukes, not to mention an isolationist society with leaders that are just as unpredictable as some of our good friends in the Middle East extremist factions. I really don't even want to ponder this situation but I'm imaging a situation that would rival the Cuban Missile Crisis. I hope Kim Jong II is as 'reasonable' as Khrushchev was.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/04/n.korea.bombers/index.html

BTW, Senator posted a thread about this program before it aired once, but if you missed it, here is a streaming video link to it. It's about the move from containment to preemption and the fight between the moderates and warhawks on Bush's staff brought to you by the smart peeps at Frontline.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/iraq/view/

Whatever the result, the world and its views of the USA are going to be forever altered after Bush's first administration.

[Riggins44]

We need to get out of the United Nations. This one world government idea doesn't appeal to me. Bush Sr. only mentioned the "New World Order" about 6 times while he was in office.

Once the UN has control... good bye constitution and bill of rights. There is no God in the UN charter.

[Radii]

I seriously doubt the title of 'greatest president ever' is in danger of changing hands from <whoever> to Bush.

[Fritz]

The PBS show was quite good, and mostly without bias. As I quipped to Senator, I do not think "preemption" is such a new thing in US Foreign Policy. That aside, the progam does a good job of presenting a shift in National Strategy, and the battle between the unilateralists and multilateralists.

The steaming video is in 6 7-10 min chunks, so watch a few segemtns if you find the time.

Thanks Senator and AgPete for pointing this program out.

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by Riggins44
We need to get out of the United Nations. This one world government idea doesn't appeal to me. Bush Sr. only mentioned the "New World Order" about 6 times while he was in office.

Once the UN has control... good bye constitution and bill of rights. There is no God in the UN charter.

Cukoo....cukooo

[AgPete]

Fritz, I tried to watch the program after Senator pointed it out but completely forgot about it and just got a chance to watch it today. I didn't realize Frontline has past episodes available via streaming video and found it on accident. I strongly recommend anyone who has an ISP that can handle the streaming video to watch this program. I wish the news was this informative. This documentary does a great job in laying out Bush's agenda and preparing Americans for what we can expect.

The United States is remaking history right now and I don't think most Americans realize it. We've replaced Communism with Terrorism and containment with preemption. Bush has a noble goal but I don't think it's as easy as the doctrine says. In our efforts to end dictatorships, theocracies and other evil governments, we may end up creating a large organized faction against us that would have never come to pass without our actions.

I really don't blame the warhawks because we may have reached a point where foreign diplomacy won't solve anything. Terrorists have sources they never had twenty years ago and eventually with technology rapidly advancing around the world, someone, a wrong someone, is going to get a hold of a nuclear weapon or other weapon of mass destruction and use it against us. The U.S. taking a proactive response may be the only solution but I hope we have some smart cookies in Washington because I'm afraid we may end up causing more problems than solving.

I tried to find a copy of the letter by Brent Scowcroft in opposition to an Iraq invasion that was published in the Washington Post. I found this instead but it's an interesting read and website:

http://www.efreedomnews.com/News%20Archive/Iraq/SpecialReportWaronIraq/M9WSJThis_is_Opposition.htm

[Craptacular]

OK, I'm watching (well, sort of watching) Nightline, and they have a town hall / panel discussion format tonight. Sen. Carl Levin from Michigan just tried to give an explanation of how North Korea is different from Iraq.

1. North Korea has kicked out UN inspectors.
2. North Korea has WMD.
3. North Korea is an avowed threat to their neighbors.

Wow. This guy was Chairman of the Armed Services Committee?

edit: Didn't want to start another Iraq / war/ terrorism thread, so I went with the most recent one.

[Iceberg]

Originally posted by Craptacular

1. North Korea has kicked out UN inspectors.
2. North Korea has WMD.
3. North Korea is an avowed threat to their neighbors.


If were to invade North Korea there is a very good chance that they nuke either the south or Japan. It is a situation similar to the Cuban missle crisis except instead of being backed by a somewhat rational Soviet government the weapons are in the hands of a madman. So lets wait until Iraq develops a nuclear arsenal and can hold the entire middle east hostage with the threat of nuclear war.

[Senator]

Frontline is the best show on TV.

I have had a front row seat of Bush since way before he ran for Gov. He used to do fund raisers for a few campaigns I ran in the early 90's. I had the chance to get to know him in a casual setting. One thing I always got from him is that once he makes up his mind, he will very seldom change his opinion. I remember him saying several times, "Make sure your right, then go ahead." Which I believe is a Davy Crockett bon mot.

Even I, who must be considered a friend of this administration with all my past ties to the people in it, am nervous. Only time will tell if all this is worth it.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally posted by Riggins44
We need to get out of the United Nations. This one world government idea doesn't appeal to me. Bush Sr. only mentioned the "New World Order" about 6 times while he was in office.

Once the UN has control... good bye constitution and bill of rights. There is no God in the UN charter.

Cukoo....cukooo

[Alf]

Only idiots and fools do not change their mind

[Bee]

Originally posted by Alf
Only idiots and fools do not change their mind

Are you calling Chirac an idiot and fool?

;)

[Easy Mac]

oui

[Alf]

Originally posted by Bee
Are you calling Chirac an idiot and fool?

;)

I've already called him a liar and a thief, so why not an idiot ?

Actually, my point is that if there is no evidence requiring war, then we should not go to war.

However, if there is clear evidence then we should go to war then I will happily stand by you (the US).

[Alf]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
oui

LOL

[BreizhManu]

Originally posted by Alf
I've already called him a liar and a thief, so why not an idiot ?

Actually, my point is that if there is no evidence requiring war, then we should not go to war.

However, if there is clear evidence then we should go to war then I will happily stand by you (the US).

Same here (even for the liar, thief and idiot :) )

[Fonzie]

Originally posted by Riggins44
We need to get out of the United Nations. This one world government idea doesn't appeal to me. Bush Sr. only mentioned the "New World Order" about 6 times while he was in office.

Once the UN has control... good bye constitution and bill of rights. There is no God in the UN charter.

Surveillance Team 1: ST1 to UN HQ - we've got a fix on Riggins44. He's in Upland, California. Over.

UN HQ: ST1, this is Koufi. Have the black choppers pick him up. They are to bring him to my super-secret New York headquarters where I will delight in violating his constitutional rights. Over.

ST1: Roger. Over.

UN HQ: One other thing, ST1; have the choppers pick up some tacos on the way back. And make sure they don't give any to Riggins44. Might as well start by violating the basic human right to tacos. Over.

ST1: Roger that! Over and out.

[Easy Mac]

Originally posted by Alf:
I've already called him a liar and a thief, so why not an idiot ?

"My Chirac is not a communist. He may be a liar, an idiot, a pig, a communist, but he is not a PORN-STAR."

[sterlingice]

Awesome, Fonzie. Tho, I have this feeling that Fuhrer Ashcroft already did that. I kindof want to start buying copies of "Catcher in the Rye" to get on some super secret list, kindof like the commies in the 50s but I'm a tad worried about the ramifications (the movie "Conspiracy Theory", anyone?) :D (And the scary thing is when I have belief some of the stuff in a post like this)

SI

[AgPete]

Originally posted by Fonzie
Surveillance Team 1: ST1 to UN HQ - we've got a fix on Riggins44. He's in Upland, California. Over.

UN HQ: ST1, this is Koufi. Have the black choppers pick him up. They are to bring him to my super-secret New York headquarters where I will delight in violating his constitutional rights. Over.

ST1: Roger. Over.

UN HQ: One other thing, ST1; have the choppers pick up some tacos on the way back. And make sure they don't give any to Riggins44. Might as well start by violating the basic human right to tacos. Over.

ST1: Roger that! Over and out.

:D :D :D

Originally posted by Senator
Frontline is the best show on TV.

I have had a front row seat of Bush since way before he ran for Gov. He used to do fund raisers for a few campaigns I ran in the early 90's. I had the chance to get to know him in a casual setting. One thing I always got from him is that once he makes up his mind, he will very seldom change his opinion. I remember him saying several times, "Make sure your right, then go ahead." Which I believe is a Davy Crockett bon mot.

Even I, who must be considered a friend of this administration with all my past ties to the people in it, am nervous. Only time will tell if all this is worth it.

That episode of Frontline did a good job in pointing out Bush's black and white thinking. I admire his stance on good and evil but I'm still nervous how simple he views world issues.

I'm catching up on other episodes of Frontline I missed. :) I didn't know Frontline did an episode on Special Agent John O'Neill. I liked the article in Time a few months ago about O'Neill better because it also focused on what counter-terrorism steps we were taking and made O'Neill seem like more of a hero but it's still a sad story to watch. It's amazing how senior FBI and State Department officials can act like petty children when it comes to office politics and perhaps kicked out the only man that could have prevented 9/11. :(

[Riggins44]

That's right, I'm crazy.

Yes, the UN is a wonderful organization aimed at making the world a better place. That explains why Syria (a known terrorist state) won a seat on the UN Security Council. They received 160 of out 177 ballots. The Bush adminstration did not voice any disapproval of Syria's selection in spite of the fact that they are on our list of terrorism sponsors.

I'm not trying to persuade anyone to change their mind about the UN... but, just do some research on your own.. and watching the news does not count. Check out the history of the Secretary-General of the UN(Annan) and who his friends our. Take note of how the UN looks the other way when it's members murder their own people(China).

I think it's worth looking into.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by AgPete
That episode of Frontline did a good job in pointing out Bush's black and white thinking. I admire his stance on good and evil but I'm still nervous how simple he views world issues.


The show (and Senator I think) have said that Bush seeks moral clarity. I find this more appealing than looking for moral ambiguity, as many polititians do.

[Fritz]

dola. I thing this trait of searching for Moral clarity is what draws Bush towards the "hawks" and "unilateralists." They can make a clean and clear appeal. Cooperation and concensus are by nature more muddled.

[JPhillips]

Riggins: The Bush admin has been all over the Syria election. They have also been very active regarding Iraq's place on the disarmament committee. Fliescher spent a good week bringing these facts up at the press briefing.

One thing to remember about the UN. The general assembly and its committees have no authority. The Security Council is the only place where things get done. Let the general assembly do whatever it wants. Its really just a forum for small countries to vent. Its a kind of group therapy for the developing world.

Finally, I don't think the US Constitution mentions God either.