2007-08 Baseball Offseason [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

Young Drachma

10-29-2007, 02:22 PM

Baseball needs a revenue model that is fair and gives mid-market teams a chance to truly compete. The Rockies are already talking of expanding payroll to $70 million. I have a bad feeling that it's not going to buy them much of what they need to succeed and now that the fans are going to be expecting the team to win, it'll be interesting to see how O'Dowd and company respond on the market.

Me thinks it'll be a few ill advised signings to show they're "serious" about winning and of course, dangling an overzealous extension to Matt Holliday, the same way they did to Todd Helton, making the latter -- and soon, the former -- virtually untradable. Yeah, he's their hero and crap, but...I can't deny that it would've been a lot better to have dealt him and that albatross of a salary to Boston when they had the chance, for an everyday player and two prospects that could've helped them.

Because I can't see a legitimiate reason to pay him $16.6 million per year. And this entire post-season have proven my point related to his lack of offensive production short of a Coors-aided .320 batting average.

Young Drachma

10-29-2007, 02:23 PM

I would love to see Mattingly get a job outside of the Yankees organization and outside of an NL East team that is not the Nationals. OK. And not the O's.

He ought to go to the Rockies. I know that it's not vogue to talk about firing a guy after his team gets to the World Series, but...no one is signing with the Rockies to play for Clint Hurdle.

ISiddiqui

10-29-2007, 02:44 PM

Because I can't see a legitimiate reason to pay him $16.6 million per year. And this entire post-season have proven my point related to his lack of offensive production short of a Coors-aided .320 batting average.

While $16.6 mil is steep, Helton did have a 133 OPS+, which is very good. It wasn't that he was just this average player without Coors.

Young Drachma

10-29-2007, 02:54 PM

While $16.6 mil is steep, Helton did have a 133 OPS+, which is very good. It wasn't that he was just this average player without Coors.

No, I know. I was being a bit crazy. He's the team's icon and a guy who will be the first number they retire. The psychological effect of keeping him was well worth it, I think.

It's just...I'm thinking that in future years -- he's still owed quite a bit on that 11-year/$151 million deal he signed in 2001.

He's going to cost them a lot of money in the later years of that deal that are gonna sting when they want to get another arm in here or a spare bat or two. He walks a ton and his career batting average is nuts. So I realize he's a great player and the lack of hype is due to where he plays more than anything.

But...given how cheap the team's ownership tends to be, I just wonder if it's going to hamper them down the road. But I guess it's a little early to say, seeing we don't know what they'll do.

ISiddiqui

10-29-2007, 03:03 PM

Completely understandable, and I think those are relevant concerns. With a team like the Rockies, how much is that large salary going to cut into need buys in the future? Especially a few years down the road. It may be very painful.

lordscarlet

10-29-2007, 03:11 PM

He ought to go to the Rockies. I know that it's not vogue to talk about firing a guy after his team gets to the World Series, but...no one is signing with the Rockies to play for Clint Hurdle.

I think it would be smart to go with a team with lower expectations (e.g. the Rockies) than a storied franchise like the Yankees. The Rockies have proven they have a lot of potential, but if they fall off after a year or two people won't think much of it. However, I don't see them getting rid of an NLCS winning manager anytime soon. Although, being a winning team didn't stop the Marlins from getting rid of Girardi.

Atocep

10-29-2007, 03:25 PM

No, I know. I was being a bit crazy. He's the team's icon and a guy who will be the first number they retire. The psychological effect of keeping him was well worth it, I think.

It's just...I'm thinking that in future years -- he's still owed quite a bit on that 11-year/$151 million deal he signed in 2001.

He's going to cost them a lot of money in the later years of that deal that are gonna sting when they want to get another arm in here or a spare bat or two. He walks a ton and his career batting average is nuts. So I realize he's a great player and the lack of hype is due to where he plays more than anything.

But...given how cheap the team's ownership tends to be, I just wonder if it's going to hamper them down the road. But I guess it's a little early to say, seeing we don't know what they'll do.

I remember hearing the contract was heavily backloaded. If I remember correctly, he's due to make somewhere around $24 million in the last year of the contract.

DeToxRox

10-29-2007, 03:32 PM

Didn't take long for the first trade

Detroit gets Edgar Renteria from the Braves for Jair Jurrjens and Gorkys Hernandez, two of our better prospects.

Young Drachma

10-29-2007, 03:36 PM

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/mlb/article/0,2777,DRMN_23924_5445540,00.html

I found a breakdown elsewhere. That article just talks about the team from back at the start of the season.

Here's Helton's salary hit from this year to the end of the deal.

2007: $16.6M
2008: $16.6M
2009: $16.6M
2010: $16.6M
2011: $19.1M
2012: Team option $23.0M or $4.6M buyout

Honolulu_Blue

10-29-2007, 04:00 PM

Didn't take long for the first trade

Detroit gets Edgar Renteria from the Braves for Jair Jurrjens and Gorkys Hernandez, two of our better prospects.

While I have a rule that states "the team that gets a guy named "Gorkys" always wins the trade", I don't trust Jurrjens - once you have arm trouble, you always have arm trouble.

DeToxRox

10-29-2007, 04:02 PM

While I have a rule that states "the team that gets a guy named "Gorkys" always wins the trade", I don't trust Jurrjens - once you have arm trouble, you always have arm trouble.

It's okay though since we have Deik Scram

Honolulu_Blue

10-29-2007, 04:05 PM

It's okay though since we have Deik Scram

Woah. I really hope Deik Scram makes it to the majors soon. I don't have a Tiger at the moment, since My Tiger, Sean Casey, is no longer with the team.

I need a Tiger.

Crapshoot

10-29-2007, 04:08 PM

I think Renteria is a pretty good player, but I don't know if this was the best use of those prospects, especially in this era (young players = cost control). And I think the defensive difference between Renteria and Guillen is not that big - why couldn't they have left G at SS?

Also, so much for the A-Rod rumors - where Detroit looked like it could be a major player.

Terps

10-29-2007, 05:57 PM

The O's should definitely get rid of Tejada (one year late, IMO), see if Erik Bedard wants to sign an extension, if not, he needs to be traded also. If both of them go, Brian Roberts needs to go too and have a complete rebuild in effect.

bulletsponge

10-29-2007, 06:03 PM

Terps

10-29-2007, 06:06 PM

If you consider rebuilding going with aging vets every season for the past 10 years then, sure.

Big Fo

10-29-2007, 06:06 PM

It's just...I'm thinking that in future years -- he's still owed quite a bit on that 11-year/$151 million deal he signed in 2001.

Damn, I never knew about the 11-year contract, that's nuts.

Detroit gets Edgar Renteria from the Braves for Jair Jurrjens and Gorkys Hernandez, two of our better prospects.

:eek:

As a Braves fan, was this a good trade? I know Renteria cost around $10m p/y and that Yunel Escobar should do pretty well at shortstop, are these two guys we got any good?

DeToxRox

10-29-2007, 06:49 PM

Damn, I never knew about the 11-year contract, that's nuts.

:eek:

As a Braves fan, was this a good trade? I know Renteria cost around $10m p/y and that Yunel Escobar should do pretty well at shortstop, are these two guys we got any good?

Jair has had small arm problems but I think he'll be a solid #3 man. Hes only 22, has amazing command of his FB, and just knows how to pitch. His FB hits low 90's but as I said, he spots it.

Gorkys is young and raw. A CF, he wasn't gonna play there with Maybin and Granderson but he was our #2 prospect as far as players. He stole 50 bases in A/AA and he is perfect in the NL. Solid average, steals bases, awesome D, only 19 or 20, the power will come.

korme

10-29-2007, 08:02 PM

Hey, did anyone know the Boston Red Sox won the World Series?

I don't think ESPN got the memo. All day today was 2 topics on ESPN: A-Rod opts out, and Girardi offered the job. Seriously, that's all I saw on Sportscenter today- the Sox are less than 24 hours removed from winning their 2nd championship in 4 years and there's hardly a mention of it, rather coverage of Yankees things.

Why play the season? Let's just always talk about the Yankees and their chances for the next title.

DeToxRox

10-29-2007, 08:25 PM

The series was over after Game 2. Boston just had it, so it was a foregone conclusion, like the Spurs winning last year, so we went right to the draft hype.

Big Fo

10-29-2007, 09:28 PM

I read this article on Baseball Prospectus (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=648) on the Renteria trade, basically saying it's good for both teams. It seems that Jurrjens is ready to be a #4 level starter next season, the Braves' starters are weak after Smoltz and Hudson.

DanGarion

10-30-2007, 01:16 PM

The series was over after Game 2. Boston just had it, so it was a foregone conclusion, like the Spurs winning last year, so we went right to the draft hype.

Spurs? Is that one of the minor league teams?

DeToxRox

10-30-2007, 03:06 PM

Spurs? Is that one of the minor league teams?

Trying to make an NBA comparison for Shorty, since I know hes a hoops man. My B for lack of clarification.

DanGarion

10-30-2007, 07:14 PM

Trying to make an NBA comparison for Shorty, since I know hes a hoops man. My B for lack of clarification.

I was being a smart ass :).

CU Tiger

10-30-2007, 08:45 PM

Renteria gone to clear room for A-rod?

miami_fan

10-30-2007, 08:51 PM

Grady Little know when he is not wanted

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3087421

All the talk was about Joe Torre managing the Los Angeles Dodgers. Only problem was Grady Little was still the manager.

That's not a problem anymore. Little announced on Tuesday night that he was resigning as manager.

During a conference call, Little responded to reports of ill will between himself and Dodgers general manager Ned Colletti.

"Ned and I have been in constant communication since the end of the season and decided mutually that this was the best move for the Dodgers organization to take," Little said.

Colletti said, "I wanted Grady Little back. I encouraged him a handful of times to think it through,"

The general manager said that he knew resignation was on Little's mind at the end of the season.

When asked if rumors of Torre taking over had an influence on his decision, Little replied, "None whatsoever."

"I have my personal reasons," he said.

He added: "It's nothing in particular. It's just a decision we've come to. This is all personal. There's a lot of belief I've been dealt an injustice here. That couldn't be further from the truth. My plans? To play with my grandkids."

Little had one year remaining on his contract with a club option for a second year.

Little, the Dodgers' skipper the past two seasons, managed the Boston Red Sox in 2002-03 before being fired despite leading the team to the American League Championship Series in 2003.

The Dodgers had baseball's best record in July but faded down the stretch to finish with an 82-80 record, good for fourth place in the NL West.

Clubhouse unrest surfaced between veterans and young players during the season's final two weeks, when the Dodgers lost seven straight games to the Colorado Rockies while falling out of contention.

Little's resignation comes amid multiple media reports that Torre will be named the Dodgers' next manager. The Los Angeles Times reported on Tuesday that the Dodgers and the former Yanks manager had agreed to terms of a contract but were resolving issues related to the coaching staff and player personnel moves.

It has been widley reported that Torre would bring his former bench coach, Don Mattingly, with him to Los Angeles. In a conference call on Tuesday, the former Yankees great did not deny or confirm a prospective move to L.A. his son Preston was drafted by the Dodgers in 2006.

Colletti would not confirm whether Torre was the leading candidate to take over.

"We've talked to other people a little bit to gauge their level of interest because talking to Grady at the end of the season I wasn't sure he was coming back," he said.

When pressed to name the candidates, Colletti said, "We'll talk about where we go from here at a later date."

As for reports that the Dodgers were negotiating with Torre, Colletti said, "That's not accurate."

Torre's agent, Maury Gostfrand, declined comment.

Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.

I agree with Jayson Stark on the treatment of Grady Little by the Dodgers. There is something a bit dirty about the way they conducted a managerial search while Little was still their manager. Oh well I am sure it was nothing personal, just business.

Big Fo

10-30-2007, 09:07 PM

Renteria gone to clear room for A-rod?

No way. Yunel Esocar will play shortstop, the Braves will use that money somewhere else, presumably on a center fielder.

molson

10-30-2007, 09:09 PM

I hope Torre spurns the Dodgers and they end up with Butch Hobson.

Buccaneer

10-30-2007, 09:17 PM

Does anyone believe anything written in that article about Little?

sterlingice

10-30-2007, 09:35 PM

Does anyone believe anything written in that article about Little?

I believe this line is factually correct: "Little, the Dodgers' skipper the past two seasons, managed the Boston Red Sox in 2002-03 before being fired despite leading the team to the American League Championship Series in 2003."

Not what you meant? ;)

SI

Atocep

10-30-2007, 10:06 PM

Renteria gone to clear room for A-rod?

The braves couldn't afford half of A-Rod's contract.

miami_fan

10-30-2007, 10:15 PM

Does anyone believe anything written in that article about Little?

Are you trying to say he does not plan on playing with his grandkids?:D

miami_fan

10-31-2007, 11:29 AM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/10/31/cameron.ap/index.html

SAN DIEGO (AP) -- Mike Cameron, the Padres' Gold Glove center fielder, was suspended for the first 25 games of next season on Wednesday after testing positive a second time for a banned stimulant.

Cameron, who plans to file for free agency, said he believes he took a tainted supplement.

"The one thing I wanted to make sure was explained is, no steroids," Cameron told AM 1090, the Padres' flagship radio station. "I never took nothing like that before in my life. That would be 50 games, and that would affect me a whole lot more."

Cameron issued a statement through his agent, saying doctors for the players' association helped him narrow down what triggered the positive test.

"After all of the analysis and testing, I can only conclude that a nutritional supplement I was taking was tainted," he said `Unfortunately, the actual supplement is gone, and therefore cannot be tested. Without the actual supplement in hand, the rules are clear, and I must accept the suspension.

Players who initially test positive for a stimulant receive counseling. Suspensions begin only with a second positive test.

The only other player suspended for testing positive for stimulants under Major League Baseball's drug plan was Detroit infielder Neifi Perez, who received a 25-game suspension on July 6 following his second positive test, and an 80-game suspension on Aug. 3 following his third positive test.

Copyright 2007 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Atocep

10-31-2007, 11:33 AM

"I took a tainted supplement"

"I need it for my health"

"There's something wrong with the testing. Its a false positive."

"My trainer gave it to me"

korme

10-31-2007, 11:37 AM

Free-agent market could be kind to Cubs' Wood

By Paul Sullivan
Tribune staff reporter

October 30, 2007, 11:35 PM CDT

When Kerry Wood filed for free agency last winter, he'd already said he felt an "obligation" to return to the Cubs and had "something to prove" after long stints on the disabled list.

When the Cubs bought out his $13.5 million option for $3 million, the right-hander kept his word and re-signed for $1.75 million plus incentives, agreeing to go to the bullpen for the sake of the team and his career.

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After returning in August and making 22 appearances out of the bullpen, Wood looked at times like the Wood of 2003, which should make him a name to watch on the free-agent market.

But whether Wood wants to return to the Cubs or seek greener pastures in a new town is a question only he can answer. Wood filed for free agency Tuesday, beginning the guessing game again.

General manager Jim Hendry has had a strong relationship with Wood since the organization drafted him in 1995, which bodes well for the possibility of Wood's return. Wood, 30, turned down much more lucrative offers so he could stay with the Cubs last season but figures to receive even more interest in this year's market for various reasons.

Wood's fastball was clocked as high as 98 m.p.h. toward the end of the season, and he was unscored on in 18 of 22 appearances. Now, with 4 1/2 more months of rest for his rehabbed shoulder, Wood's arm strength might give him the option of starting or relieving in '08.

Name recognition alone could make Wood a hot commodity, and with old friend Joe Girardi now managing the New York Yankees, the chances of Wood wearing dark blue pinstripes are probably decent if he bolts the Cubs. Other teams that figure to be interested include Texas, Houston, Arizona, the Los Angeles Dodgers, Boston and Cincinnati, which is now managed by his former Cubs skipper, Dusty Baker.

In an Associated Press report Tuesday, Baker denied a published report that he had had recent conversations with Wood, squelching the suggestion he was recruiting his former pitcher. Baker told the AP that Wood had sent him a text message to congratulate him on his new job, as had several other former players, including Cubs pitcher Mark Prior, who is eligible for arbitration and might not be tendered a contract.

Sources said Baker told Reds officials he had spoken to Prior and Cubs outfielder Jacque Jones to ask about their homes and families after last week's wildfires spread close to their San Diego residences. Both players told Baker their houses had been left standing and their families were safe, and the Cubs have not accused Baker of tampering.

miami_fan

11-01-2007, 02:31 PM

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3090054

DETROIT -- Tigers reliever Joel Zumaya is expected to be sidelined until midseason after injuring his throwing shoulder while moving items during the California wildfires.

Zumaya had surgery Wednesday on his right shoulder in San Diego. His residence is listed as south of the city, in Chula Vista.

Zumaya, whose 100 mph fastballs helped Detroit reach the 2006 World Series, will rest his shoulder for six weeks. He is not expected to begin a throwing program until March.

The Tigers said Zumaya was hurt while moving personal items, but did not release additional details. Known for his fastballs, Zumaya has giant flame tattoos on both of his arms.

Surgery on a tendon in his middle finger limited him to just 28 games last season. He was 2-3 with a 4.28 ERA.

As a rookie in 2006, Zumaya was a key reason the Tigers won the AL championship for the first time since in more than two decades. He was 6-3 with a 1.94 ERA, and struck out 92 in 62 games appearances.

Zumaya's injury seems to make re-signing Todd Jones, a free agent, or acquiring another closer even more of a priority. The Tigers went 88-74 this season and finished second in the AL Central.

Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press

First, Guitar Hero and now this?

DeToxRox

11-01-2007, 03:18 PM

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3090054

First, Guitar Hero and now this?

Mark Fidrych anyone?

Love Zoom, but he is just like a Liriano type. I don't think he'll ever be the same and it's sad but true. Hope he recovers but now money needs to be thrown somewhere, or a deal for Chad Cordero, though I can't see him coming here without losing something big, and after the Edgar deal, I don't see it.

Rizon

11-01-2007, 08:19 PM

The Oakland A's will collect a bunch of utility outfielders and infielders who have a high OBP but can't hit the ball worth shit. And we'll fall short again.

sterlingice

11-02-2007, 08:00 AM

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3090054

First, Guitar Hero and now this?

Well, you beat me to the story as I was going to post this. In the AP story, it mentions "tried to salvage a few things for his father". I commented to a friend of mine "yeah, he tried to salvage his Guitar Hero guitar and saved games" ;)

SI

Young Drachma

11-02-2007, 09:50 AM

Baseball Prospectus off-season plans report. I particularly like what they said about the Rockies in the NL West (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6899), because it's a lot of what we said here. Which is that they ought to use the NL pennant season as a building block to sell high on a few guys, like dealing Garrett Atkins for for a hurler (figuring that people coming short from A-Rod will bite.

rather than keeping the same team in place (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071028&content_id=2285996&vkey=ps2007news&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb), as Montfort the cheapskate owner wants to do.

Should be interesting....

lordscarlet

11-02-2007, 10:43 AM

Can't see what they say about my Nationals. :(

Young Drachma

11-02-2007, 11:21 AM

It's not shorter. It's exactly the same, actually. Good catch.

lordscarlet

11-02-2007, 12:27 PM

They cross-posted this stuff to cnnsi.com, probably shorter, but hey.

hxxp://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/10/29/bp.nleast/index.html

Thanks!

Can someone explain to me how the Marlins have no one contracted for next year but Miguel Cabrera is a free agent in '09?

TazFTW

11-02-2007, 08:22 PM

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7403260?MSNHPHMA

Boras wanted $350 million?!?!? :eek:

Atocep

11-02-2007, 08:30 PM

Thanks!

Can someone explain to me how the Marlins have no one contracted for next year but Miguel Cabrera is a free agent in '09?

What they're saying is every player on the roster right now is still in the team controlled 6-year window. They don't have a single player on the roster that has received a contract extension or was signed as a free agent.

henry296

11-02-2007, 09:30 PM

Thanks!

Can someone explain to me how the Marlins have no one contracted for next year but Miguel Cabrera is a free agent in '09?

To add on to Atocep's comments, all players contracts expired at the end of the season, but they are still controlled by the Marlins because they have less than six years of MLB experience. In the case of Cabrera, he is arbitrition eligible but isn't signed yet for 2008.

bulletsponge

11-02-2007, 11:02 PM

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7403260?MSNHPHMA

Boras wanted $350 million?!?!? :eek:

LOL whos the moron that will pay mr overrated that much?

Young Drachma

11-02-2007, 11:02 PM

And you can best believe they did that on purpose. Jeffrey Loria sucks.

Young Drachma

11-03-2007, 12:19 AM

NY Times Op-Ed from a Wash U business professor talking about baseball's revenue sharing system and how it sucks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/03/opinion/03lewis.html?ref=opinion

k0ruptr

11-03-2007, 12:37 AM

LOL whos the moron that will pay mr overrated that much?

i dont think anyone will, but to be fair i dont think AROD really wants that much, I think thats Boras BS. And Arod will sign for much less, I really believe he hates NY by now and will go for much less somewhere else.

Poli

11-03-2007, 12:43 AM

First thing I thought of when I saw koruptr posted here:

"What? Colt Brennan for Cy Young too?"

molson

11-03-2007, 12:47 AM

i dont think anyone will, but to be fair i dont think AROD really wants that much, I think thats Boras BS. And Arod will sign for much less, I really believe he hates NY by now and will go for much less somewhere else.

I can't think of a single example of a Boras client leaving money on the table to go somewhere "happier".

He thought the money was there in NY.

larrymcg421

11-03-2007, 01:45 AM

No way. Yunel Esocar will play shortstop, the Braves will use that money somewhere else, presumably on a center fielder.

I thought the Braves would move Willie Harris to CF and promote Matt Diaz to starting LF. Extra money should be used on locking up Texeira and adding starters to the rotation.

k0ruptr

11-03-2007, 02:32 AM

First thing I thought of when I saw koruptr posted here:

"What? Colt Brennan for Cy Young too?"

lol nice.

but yea I don't post as much in the baseball threads, even though Baseball was always my first love sports wise. It really hasn't been the same this year after the Chisox tanked :(

k0ruptr

11-03-2007, 02:34 AM

I thought the Braves would move Willie Harris to CF and promote Matt Diaz to starting LF. Extra money should be used on locking up Texeira and adding starters to the rotation.

Yea Texeira should be first priority, and I also think Glavine will sign with the braves which will help, but definetly isnt the answer to the back end of there rotation.

Big Fo

11-03-2007, 07:43 AM

I thought the Braves would move Willie Harris to CF and promote Matt Diaz to starting LF. Extra money should be used on locking up Texeira and adding starters to the rotation.

From a strange article in the AJC (http://www.ajc.com/printedition/content/printedition/2007/11/01/moore1101.html?cxntlid=inform) where the author lobbied to Braves to trade for Ken Griffey Jr. to play center:

“The strategy from there (after the Renteria trade) would be for us to get a center fielder,” said Frank Wren on Wednesday, the sharp baseball man who will make a seamless transition into John Schuerholz’s role as Braves general manager.

“I would say that going strong in the free-agent market would be our least likely alternative,” Wren said. “I say that just because, with the young players we have coming (in the farm system), it just wouldn’t make sense to go sign somebody for four, five, six years when we have what we think are better players on the horizon. With that being said, the free-agent market probably doesn’t make as much sense as a trade. The trade market is probably the most likely way we’ll fill center field.”

So I don't think management sees Willie Harris as the answer in CF, a good thing IMO.

JPhillips

11-03-2007, 07:52 AM

I'm not a Griffey hater and I think he's played hard for the Reds, but if ATL wants him I'd love to work a deal. With Dunn, Hamilton, and Bruce all needing a spot, someone has to go and I think Griffey is the best choice.

Hopefully things work out better for him somewhere else.

lordscarlet

11-03-2007, 08:04 AM

Thanks for the explanations on the contract, guys.

Atocep

11-03-2007, 01:22 PM

As a Mets fan, watching the Braves go from Andrew Jones' defense in center to Griffey's would be rather humerous.

Big Fo

11-03-2007, 01:46 PM

Yeah, I don't think it's going to happen, that was just one columnist's stupid idea. But the Braves do need to make a trade for someone, Harris isn't good enough to play everyday.

sterlingice

11-03-2007, 01:53 PM

Dayton Moore seems to love trading with the Braves so I'm guessing David DeJesus is an option.

SI

Atocep

11-03-2007, 04:40 PM

In an effort to show that he hasn't changed one bit, Sammy Sosa announced he'd only return to the Rangers next year for $7 mil.

miami_fan

11-06-2007, 02:08 PM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/11/06/marlins.cabrera/index.html?eref=mostpop

ORLANDO -- Florida third baseman Miguel Cabrera is officially on the trading block.

The Marlins have begun contacting selected teams about the possibility of a Cabrera blockbuster. The Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers and Angels are all expected to have interest.

Florida will likely seek a package of three young players, including at least one or two top-tier talents for Cabrera, 24, who is eligible for free agency after the 2009 season.

The cost-conscious Marlins, whose payroll was below $30 million in 2007, don't want to dedicate too much of their budget to one player. Cabrera's salary is expected to rise from $7 million to about $12 million through salary arbitration.

The Marlins may also entertain offers on star pitcher Dontrelle Willis.

*sigh*

Atocep

11-06-2007, 04:40 PM

<table style="width: 292px; height: 194px;" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: left;">P</td><td>Johan Santana</td><td>Greg Maddux</td></tr> <tr class="io-evenRow"><td style="text-align: left;">C</td><td>Ivan Rodriguez</td><td>Russell Martin</td></tr> <tr><td style="text-align: left;">1B</td><td>Kevin Youkilis</td><td>Derrek Lee</td></tr> <tr class="io-evenRow"><td style="text-align: left;">2B</td><td>Placido Polanco</td><td>Orlando Hudson</td></tr> <tr><td style="text-align: left;">SS</td><td>Orlando Cabrera</td><td>Jimmy Rollins</td></tr> <tr class="io-evenRow"><td style="text-align: left;">3B</td><td>David Wright</td><td>Adrian Beltre</td></tr> <tr><td style="text-align: left;">OF</td><td>Torii Hunter
Grady Sizemore
Ichiro Suzuki</td><td>Carlos Beltran
*Jeff Francoeur
Andruw Jones
*Aaron Rowand</td></tr></tbody></table>

Gold Gloves announced today. No Derek Jeter this year!

I haven't really checked, but Sizemore and Hunter are average defenders, at best. Everything else actually looks pretty good for once.

Mantle2600

11-06-2007, 05:13 PM

Gold Gloves announced today. No Derek Jeter this year!

I haven't really checked, but Sizemore and Hunter are average defenders, at best. Everything else actually looks pretty good for once.

You probaly should check, cause they are definitely at least above average.

Atocep

11-06-2007, 05:15 PM

You probaly should check, cause they are definitely at least above average.

I actually did after posting that. Hunter was almost right at average and Sizemore rated below average.

Big Fo

11-06-2007, 05:21 PM

So Francoeur and Rowand tied in the voting and both get a Gold Glove. I'd never seen that happen before. It was good for Francoeur to get in there, not just because he's a Brave, but also to have a non-centerfielder win the award.

I was curious enough to look it up on Wikipedia, apparently the only other tie in Gold Glove voting occurred in 1985:

* Dwight Evans - Boston Red Sox (Tied)
* Dave Winfield - New York Yankees
* Dwayne Murphy - Oakland Athletics (Tied)
* Gary Pettis - California Angels

Brillig

11-06-2007, 05:25 PM

Jimmy Rollins?!?

I call shenanigans.

The correct order for NL shortstops is:

Tulowitzki
Vizquel
.
Rollins

Tulowitzki had the best season, along with the cachet of the unassisted triple. Vizquel had a good season as well, and has the umpteen previous Gold Gloves (which has to bear some weight, otherwise, how do we explain Maddux?).

Rollins is 3rd in fielding percentage, 5th in range factor amongst shortstops with at least 100 GS.

Blech.

cougarfreak

11-06-2007, 05:56 PM

Brandon Phillips deserved the NL Gold Glove at 2b.

Atocep

11-06-2007, 06:09 PM

He and Tulowitzki both have good arguments, however, they didn't do a horrible job this year. Sizemore is probably the least deserving and at least he's close to average.

DanGarion

11-06-2007, 06:23 PM

I actually did after posting that. Hunter was almost right at average and Sizemore rated below average.
What stats are you checking?

oykib

11-06-2007, 07:47 PM

So Francoeur and Rowand tied in the voting and both get a Gold Glove. I'd never seen that happen before. It was good for Francoeur to get in there, not just because he's a Brave, but also to have a non-centerfielder win the award.

I totally disagree. If these guys were really that great, they'd be playing center. Unless you have a situation where there are really two CFs in the same outfield like when Cameron was playing with Ichiro, I can't really see giving the GG to corner outfielders as a good idea.

Young Drachma

11-06-2007, 08:00 PM

Tulo is also a rookie. He'll get his time, though, provided he keeps playing like he did this year.

Atocep

11-06-2007, 08:48 PM

What stats are you checking?

I generally go by Fielding Runs Above Average, which has Sizemore at -6 runs, which falls right in line with the average of his last 2 years. Hunter was a +3 runs, which also falls right in line with his career norms except for his '01 season which was definitely gold glove worthy (+30 runs).

There's nothing close to a perfect fielding metric, but Hunter's zone rating and range factors are 9th and 7th among CFers only. Sizemore is 13th in range factor and 1st in zone rating.

CraigSca

11-06-2007, 09:02 PM

Yea Texeira should be first priority, and I also think Glavine will sign with the braves which will help, but definetly isnt the answer to the back end of there rotation.

Everyone knows that Texeira wants to play in front of his hometown fans (I wish).

DeToxRox

11-06-2007, 09:05 PM

Granderson got snubbed. Grady Sizemore? Meh.

Pudge winning was a joke though. Talk about winning on name alone.

Logan

11-06-2007, 09:45 PM

JS19

11-06-2007, 10:01 PM

I saw David Wright's name scroll by on the ticker, and then saw that followed up by the AL Gold Glove winners. This caused me to think that maybe they had announced the NL Silver Slugger awards or something. I love David Wright about as much as one heterosexual guy can love another, but as great as some of the plays are that he makes, in no way is he deserving of a GG.

I agree 100%. If there is an award for most spectacular plays in a season, he's the man, but no GG, yet. Another yr or so and he'll be right up there with Rolen.

What's this i hear about the GMs voted yes for instant replay?? My computer has a mind of its own right now, so i can't check this out.

Atocep

11-06-2007, 10:03 PM

What's this i hear about the GMs voted yes for instant replay?? My computer has a mind of its own right now, so i can't check this out.

GMs approved instant replay on Homeruns.

WSUCougar

11-06-2007, 10:37 PM

Russell Martin?

ISiddiqui

11-06-2007, 10:43 PM

I saw David Wright's name scroll by on the ticker, and then saw that followed up by the AL Gold Glove winners. This caused me to think that maybe they had announced the NL Silver Slugger awards or something. I love David Wright about as much as one heterosexual guy can love another, but as great as some of the plays are that he makes, in no way is he deserving of a GG.

Wright was actually 3rd in the NL in fielding Win Shares behind Ryan Zimmerman and Aramis Ramirez (and just a smidge behind Ramirez).

SirFozzie

11-07-2007, 09:52 AM

2 interesting Red Sox related tidbits.

A) Schilling turned down an unnamed team who was ready to offer $14 million guaranteed, to take the $8 million guaranteed + up to $5 million in incentives Sox offer. Interesting to see a player leave so much guaranteed money on the table.

B) The Sox are talking about possibly going to a six man rotation next year of Beckett, Dick-K, Schilling, Wakefield, Lester, Buchholz.

Atocep

11-07-2007, 10:14 AM

And you can best believe they did that on purpose. Jeffrey Loria sucks.

The Marlins contacted Boras and are rumored to be very interested and serious about signing A-Rod. Loria seems to think that if they could somehow get A-Rod signed it would show the team is serious about winning and also help get a new stadium deal done.

I have no idea why this guy is still owner of a MLB team....

SirFozzie

11-07-2007, 10:42 AM

Atocep

11-07-2007, 10:46 AM

Oh, this is one of the most passive-aggresive bitter columns I've ever seen.

Dan Shaughnessy, the "Curly-Haired Boyfriend" himself, who had led the charge to send Schilling anywhere but Boston for 2008, wrote this column.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2007/11/06/good_all_around/

I don't know how many times I've swore I'd never read another CHB column again, but I keep going back. His columns are so bad they're pure entertainment.

SirFozzie

11-07-2007, 10:57 AM

I don't know how many times I've swore I'd never read another CHB column again, but I keep going back. His columns are so bad they're pure entertainment.

It is such a laugh. Before this all happened, there was a link to him on "Globe 10.0" which is a show kinda like Pardon The Interruption about Boston sports on NESN, generally hosted by Bob Ryan, and Shaughnessy was the guest on the show, where he talked about Schilling "begging for a contract" from the Red Sox and said it was "Pathetic"

http://www.boston.com/partners/worldnow/nesn.html?catID=80767&clipid=1888309&autoStart=true&mute=false&continuous=true

Admittedly, when folks think of "Sour Boston fans".. this is Exhibit #1 involved.

Considering this is the guy who nearly ran Theo Epstein out of town by leaking contract details and sniping at him by acting as a paid stooge for Larry Luccino, Shaughnessy is the only Boston writer I think who actively roots against the Sox.

watravaler

11-07-2007, 11:02 AM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/11/06/marlins.cabrera/index.html?eref=mostpop

*sigh*

I agree, but every time I see Cabrera he appears to have gained ten pounds...what is his deal?

molson

11-07-2007, 11:07 AM

The Boston media is brutal to it's local teams and players - I tried to make that point in another thread and was shot down.

I haven't kept up, but Ron Borges was still anti-everything Patriots until at least 2 Super Bowls in, saying they were a fluke team who got lucky. Somebody else (Kevin Mannix?) was absolutely in love with the Buffalo Bills GM, and constantly went on about what a superior organization the Bills were.

And I think CHB has a notch on his belt for every Red Sox player he tries to run out of town. (Clemens, Vaughn, Everett, ect).

johnnyshaka

11-07-2007, 11:48 AM

The Oakland A's will collect a bunch of utility outfielders and infielders who have a high OBP but can't hit the ball worth shit. And we'll fall short again.

You forgot to mention that everybody will be diagnosed with broken body syndrome.

miami_fan

11-07-2007, 12:56 PM

I agree, but every time I see Cabrera he appears to have gained ten pounds...what is his deal?

He is definitely getting a gut. Unfortunately this has nothing to do with him being in shape. It is all about his arbitration eligibility. I don't think there is anyway he makes it to spring training.

rkmsuf

11-07-2007, 01:00 PM

DanGarion

11-07-2007, 03:04 PM

I generally go by Fielding Runs Above Average, which has Sizemore at -6 runs, which falls right in line with the average of his last 2 years. Hunter was a +3 runs, which also falls right in line with his career norms except for his '01 season which was definitely gold glove worthy (+30 runs).

There's nothing close to a perfect fielding metric, but Hunter's zone rating and range factors are 9th and 7th among CFers only. Sizemore is 13th in range factor and 1st in zone rating.
Yes but you realize that stats don't always make a player look amazing. Sometimes it's what people see. If you see a bunch of highlights of a guy diving and making catches and what look like amazing plays because the guy doesn't have great range and doesn't get a good jump on the ball, that's going to look a lot better in the voters mind then the guy that just makes play after play without much risk. IMO.

sterlingice

11-07-2007, 09:04 PM

B) The Sox are talking about possibly going to a six man rotation next year of Beckett, Dick-K, Schilling, Wakefield, Lester, Buchholz.

If that doesn't tell you something about them being too deep and too good then nothing will. "Well, we really don't need more than 5 pitchers in a rotation but we don't need to deal one for a bat because our lineup is already loaded"

SI

molson

11-07-2007, 09:15 PM

If that doesn't tell you something about them being too deep and too good then nothing will. "Well, we really don't need more than 5 pitchers in a rotation but we don't need to deal one for a bat because our lineup is already loaded"

SI

True, but if there was ever a rotation where using 6 guys makes perfect sense, this is it: Schilling's old, Wakefield's breaking down, Dice-K tired at the end of last year and pitched in a 6-man rotation in Japan, and Lester & Buchholz have never pitched a full MLB season. I'd hope they manage to start Beckett more often though.

Brillig

11-07-2007, 09:18 PM

I agree, but every time I see Cabrera he appears to have gained ten pounds...what is his deal?

Horizontal Growth Hormone.

sterlingice

11-07-2007, 09:20 PM

Horizontal Growth Hormone.

Is that what twinkies and ding dongs are made of?

SI

DaddyTorgo

11-07-2007, 09:28 PM

True, but if there was ever a rotation where using 6 guys makes perfect sense, this is it: Schilling's old, Wakefield's breaking down, Dice-K tired at the end of last year and pitched in a 6-man rotation in Japan, and Lester & Buchholz have never pitched a full MLB season. I'd hope they manage to start Beckett more often though.

I agree and TBH I hope they do buck whatever "unwritten rule" it is and go with it. Although I think Dice will be fine without it now that he's had a year to adjust.

sterlingice

11-07-2007, 09:36 PM

True, but if there was ever a rotation where using 6 guys makes perfect sense, this is it: Schilling's old, Wakefield's breaking down, Dice-K tired at the end of last year and pitched in a 6-man rotation in Japan, and Lester & Buchholz have never pitched a full MLB season. I'd hope they manage to start Beckett more often though.

From the starting rotations of the rest of the MLB, let me play you the world's smallest violin for those horrible problems ;)

SI

bigdawg2003

11-07-2007, 09:46 PM

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3099599

Astros get:

OF Michael Bourn
RP Geoff Geary
3B Mike Costanzo

Phillies get:

RP Brad Lidge
IF Eric Bruntlett

Philly fans. What'd we get?

RedKingGold

11-07-2007, 09:52 PM

Atocep

11-07-2007, 10:01 PM

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3099599

Astros get:

OF Michael Bourn
RP Geoff Geary
3B Mike Costanzo

Phillies get:

RP Brad Lidge
IF Eric Bruntlett

Philly fans. What'd we get?

Best case scenario for Bourne is Juan Pierre, which means he's a career 4th OFer. Costanzo is a power prospect, but has been old for his leagues so his upside is probably limited. He walks quite a bit, but striking out 157 times in AA as a 24 year old is a red flag.

Coming into this year they were ranked 7th and 12th in the Philly system.

JonInMiddleGA

11-07-2007, 10:09 PM

I just hope this guy decides to try the majors:
Chunichi outfielder Kosuke Fukudome.

Alas, we can only dream of Harry Caray still being around to try that last name :D

Crapshoot

11-07-2007, 10:58 PM

Young Drachma

11-07-2007, 11:11 PM

I just hope this guy decides to try the majors:
Chunichi outfielder Kosuke Fukudome.

Alas, we can only dream of Harry Caray still being around to try that last name :D

Oh, he will. He's a free agent this year and turns 31 next year.

I found this about him on another site: (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/05/mike_plugh_on_k.html)

On which positions Fukudome could play:

Fukudome would be an excellent Red Sox outfielder, and he'd hit a million doubles in that park. His days as an infielder are finished, but I think he could play any of the outfield positions. He's best in right though. Center would be an option, but not the most attractive one from a defensive standpoint.

What we can expect offensively:

He is an on base machine with power to the gaps. He won't be a home run slugger, but he'll be standing on first or second base after about 40% of his plate appearances.

On Fukudome's personality and attitude:

He's a competitor too. Kind of a throwback guy. No dyed hair, jewelry, image enhancements. Buzz cut, square jaw, intense eyes. Not that those things make you a good or bad player, but fans will be turned on by his serious approach.

On possible interested teams:

I think it's premature to say who is or who isn't interested in Fukudome. I happened to know that several MLB clubs are going to make a serious run at him. I can't say who those teams are for confidentiality reasons, but it will be a multi-team battle for his services. He should command in the $12-15 million range over 3 or 4 years. It will be a very good buy for whichever team he chooses. The Red Sox would benefit from the additional TV coverage they'd receive, but a lot of clubs would like to break into the Japanese market and have scouts over here on a permanent basis.

Atocep

11-07-2007, 11:16 PM

I'm not a pirates fan, but I just became a Neal Huntington fan.

Q&A with thier GM:

The Pirates upper management has widely ignored OBP (on base percentage) in the past. How important will OBP be in player evaluation under your leadership?
-- Eric S., Pennsboro, W.Va

We are going to utilize several objective measures of player performance to evaluate and develop players. We'll rely on the more traditional objective evaluations: OPS (on base percentage plus slugging percentage) , WHIP (walks and hits per inning pitched), Runs Created, ERC (Component ERA), GB/FB (ground ball to fly ball ratio), K/9 (strikeouts per nine innings), K/BB (strikeouts to walks ratio), BB%, etc., but we'll also look to rely on some of the more recent variations: VORP (value over replacement player), Relative Performance, EqAve (equivalent average), EqOBP (equivalent on base percentage), EqSLG (equivalent slugging percentage), BIP% (balls put into play percentage), wOBA (weighted on base average), Range Factor, PMR (probabilistic model of range) and Zone Rating.

ISiddiqui

11-08-2007, 07:11 AM

You got that Fire Joe Morgan blog, didn't you ;).

The blogger's comment after that is hilarious, btw.

Young Drachma

11-08-2007, 09:51 AM

Contract the Florida teams (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/08/sports/baseball/08chass.html?ex=1195189200&en=f61fe83661e339a2&ei=5070)

From the NY Times.

Hammer755

11-08-2007, 09:52 AM

Supposedly the Phillies acquired Brad Lidge and a minor leaguer from the Astros for Michael Bourn, Geoff Geary, and another minor leaguer.

As a Phillie's fan, I don't like the deal. I liked Bourn as a potential Juan Pierre type, his speed gave a nice dimension and he was a solid fielder. Unless Rowland is going to be re-signed by the Phils (which I highly doubt), this leaves the outfield a little bit thin.

As far as Lidge, I only see him as a slight upgrade from Geary. Geary was one of the more reliable relievers for the Phils last year (when everyone else was pretty much crap), and while Lidge has the ability to be dominant, he's also a mental case.

And, if Lidge struggled to keep fly balls within Minute Maid Park, how the hell will he not allow at least as many homeruns in Citizen Bank Park?

I don't know where to begin with this post.

First off, as already stated, a comparison to Pierre is not a compliment.

Secondly, Lidge is more than just a slight upgrade from Geary. As poorly as Lidge has pitched the last 2 seasons, he's still maintained a very good K rate, and a pretty good K/BB ratio. His HR rate has not been good, but it has not been awful. He tended to give them up in crucial situations, which obviously is not a good thing for a closer, but it makes a better story to report that he has completely fallen apart, which is far from reality.

Geary is a below-average arm, while Lidge has been one of the most dominant relievers in the game over the past 5 years. Even last season, when he was moved to middle relief, he was flat out unhittable. Geary has been a middling below average reliever who has had a lucky ERA the past couple of years.

Overall, I think both teams win in this trade. The Astros didn't have much of a choice in trading Lidge, they moved a large contract, and got some young talent in return, which they are sorely lacking. To me, Constanzo is the wild-card in this deal.

Atocep

11-08-2007, 11:43 AM

You got that Fire Joe Morgan blog, didn't you ;).

The blogger's comment after that is hilarious, btw.

Yep, the only blog I actually read and one of my favorite websites.

I don't even hold the fact that they're Red Sox fans against them. :)

ISiddiqui

11-08-2007, 12:30 PM

Contract the Florida teams (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/08/sports/baseball/08chass.html?ex=1195189200&en=f61fe83661e339a2&ei=5070)

From the NY Times.

I think it's better just to move them. Perhaps move the Marlins to North Carolina and Tampa to... well, wherever.

Atocep

11-09-2007, 08:40 PM

The Giants started their post-Bonds rebuilding by signing Vizquel to 1-year $5.3 million extension with a team option for '09....

Young Drachma

11-09-2007, 09:25 PM

I think it's better just to move them. Perhaps move the Marlins to North Carolina and Tampa to... well, wherever.

North Carolina keeps saying they don't want a team. Orlando wanted a team a decade ago when Miami got one instead, maybe they could be conned into taking the Rays or whatever and then move the Marlins to Brooklyn and build a stadium where Bruce Ratner supposedly wants to build an arena.

And yes, I know...the Mets and Yankees blah blah blah blah..monopoly.

Brillig

11-09-2007, 10:23 PM

The Giants started their post-Bonds rebuilding by signing Vizquel to 1-year $5.3 million extension with a team option for '09....

I suspect this was sarcasm, but I like this move. Vizquel was one of the few things watchable about the '07 Giants. And it's not like we have an impact SS in the minors. Weak as the FA market is, this was probably the best SS available not named A-Rod.

It's actually a vesting option for '09, 140 games played.

Now what scares me is that there's talk of trading Lincecum. Not that I think it's necessarily a bad idea, I'm just scared that Sabean will fail to get anything like good value for him.

cartman

11-09-2007, 10:31 PM

CHAN HO PARK FOR THE MF-ING WIN!!!

Atocep

11-09-2007, 10:45 PM

I suspect this was sarcasm, but I like this move. Vizquel was one of the few things watchable about the '07 Giants. And it's not like we have an impact SS in the minors. Weak as the FA market is, this was probably the best SS available not named A-Rod.

It's actually a vesting option for '09, 140 games played.

Now what scares me is that there's talk of trading Lincecum. Not that I think it's necessarily a bad idea, I'm just scared that Sabean will fail to get anything like good value for him.

The Giants won't be contending for anything in '08, Sabean continuing to hang onto a 40 year old shortstop that posted a .621 OPS makes zero sense. Then again, its typical Sabean. Life without Bonds is going to be rough for him because the only way he knows how to construct a team is by having a lineup full of 35+ year old players.

A creative GM makes some sort of move for a younger SS or signs one. Since the free agent market for shortstops is thin, then making a deal for someone that stands to at least hold his ground over the next 2-3 seasons, if not improve a bit, rather than one in sharp decline makes the most sense.

We're talking about 40 year old Omar Vizquel here, not Omar 10 years ago. He posted a VORP of -9 and a WARP3 of 4.5. The 4.5 WARP3 is about average for a SS and shows how good he was defensively last year. However, it was his best defensive season since in about 10 years so you can't expect him to repeat it.

Off the top of my head a Ronny Cedeno (who the Cubs would probably give away at this point) would offer the same defense (if not better assuming Visquel falls back to his '06 level) and at least the potential to do better than a .621 OPS. Not only that, the Giants would have saved about $5 million this year and another $5 million next year.

MrBug708

11-09-2007, 10:55 PM

MrBug708

11-09-2007, 10:55 PM

North Carolina keeps saying they don't want a team. Orlando wanted a team a decade ago when Miami got one instead, maybe they could be conned into taking the Rays or whatever and then move the Marlins to Brooklyn and build a stadium where Bruce Ratner supposedly wants to build an arena.

And yes, I know...the Mets and Yankees blah blah blah blah..monopoly.

Why not Portland for one of those franchises?

Atocep

11-09-2007, 11:08 PM

Why not Portland for one of those franchises?

Portland would probably get better attendence numbers than a small handful of MLB teams, but their TV audience would be crippled because of the Mariners.

Honestly, Charlotte is just about the only city that makes sense. It could draw fans without having much effect on the Braves, if any at all. Orlando would dip into the Devil Rays fan base (don't laugh) and offers just about the same potential for attendence/TV ratings that Charlotte would. Since MLB would probably frown on taking fans from a struggling market, Charlotte is just about the only option a team wanting to move has.

cartman

11-09-2007, 11:17 PM

as I said earlier...

CHAN HO PARK FOR THE MF-ING WIN!!!

JonInMiddleGA

11-09-2007, 11:30 PM

Brillig

11-09-2007, 11:49 PM

The Giants won't be contending for anything in '08, Sabean continuing to hang onto a 40 year old shortstop that posted a .621 OPS makes zero sense. Then again, its typical Sabean. Life without Bonds is going to be rough for him because the only way he knows how to construct a team is by having a lineup full of 35+ year old players.

A creative GM makes some sort of move for a younger SS or signs one. Since the free agent market for shortstops is thin, then making a deal for someone that stands to at least hold his ground over the next 2-3 seasons, if not improve a bit, rather than one in sharp decline makes the most sense.

We're talking about 40 year old Omar Vizquel here, not Omar 10 years ago. He posted a VORP of -9 and a WARP3 of 4.5. The 4.5 WARP3 is about average for a SS and shows how good he was defensively last year. However, it was his best defensive season since in about 10 years so you can't expect him to repeat it.

Off the top of my head a Ronny Cedeno (who the Cubs would probably give away at this point) would offer the same defense (if not better assuming Visquel falls back to his '06 level) and at least the potential to do better than a .621 OPS. Not only that, the Giants would have saved about $5 million this year and another $5 million next year.
This is what I love about stat-heads. They can always make up another stat no one cares about to 'prove' their points.Last season was far from Omar's best defensive season in 10 years. And Cedeno is an utter scrub compared to Omar.

Bearcat729

11-10-2007, 12:35 AM

Just for the idly curious, largest TV markets without an MLB team of their own

#19 Orlando-Daytona-Melbourne 1,434,050 TV Households
#23 Portland 1,150,320
#25 Charlotte 1,085,640
#26 Indianapolis 1,072,090
#28 Raleigh-Durham 1,039,890
#30 Nashville 966,170
#35 Salt Lake City 874,650
#36 Greenville-Spartanburg-Asheville-Anderson 838,720
#37 San Antonio 792,440

(I left out #20 Sacramento-Stockton-Modesto, #29 Hartford-New Haven, and #32 Columbus,OH because of their proximity to existing teams)

I'd delete Indianapolis from the list as well(Only 108 miles difference between the distance from Cincy to Indy and 187 to Chicago). There's almost no way to move a team to Indianapolis without drawing a chunk of the Reds TV base.

Atocep

11-10-2007, 12:53 AM

This is what I love about stat-heads. They can always make up another stat no one cares about to 'prove' their points.Last season was far from Omar's best defensive season in 10 years. And Cedeno is an utter scrub compared to Omar.

Wow, I don't even know what to say. Apparently you take offense to stats being discussed in baseball.

You can check Omar's defensive stats over the past 10 years (unless you're a big believer in fielding percentage). He's had 3 good years, 1 oustanding year, and a bunch of average years. But his fielding percentage sure does look purty.

Regardless, the Giants should be rebuilding and instead they commited up to $10 million over the next 2 years for a 41 year old shortstop that hit .246/.305/.316 last year. I'd take just about anyone under 30 over that.

Young Drachma

11-10-2007, 06:49 AM

Portland would probably get better attendence numbers than a small handful of MLB teams, but their TV audience would be crippled because of the Mariners.

Honestly, Charlotte is just about the only city that makes sense. It could draw fans without having much effect on the Braves, if any at all. Orlando would dip into the Devil Rays fan base (don't laugh) and offers just about the same potential for attendence/TV ratings that Charlotte would. Since MLB would probably frown on taking fans from a struggling market, Charlotte is just about the only option a team wanting to move has.

If the city officials are against the idea and fan polling as been tepid at best, it's hard to put a team there.

Norfolk would work better than one would think, especially if you put Richmond into the mix economically and North Carolina isn't super far away. It's far enough away from Baltimore and there is enough of a military presence there that the market isn't nearly as small as one might predict (again when you add Richmond into it and assume that baseball fans from N. Carolina would be in striking distance to the team) and they made a play for the Expos before the move to D.C. that no one really took that seriously.

San Bernardino/Riverside is far enough from LA that if a team marketed itself right, it could even do well to pull in fans from Vegas, without having to waste time putting a team there.

And Jersey works, no matter what anyone says. Philadelphia used to have two teams, New York used to have 3. Now, the region that supported 5 teams (and the A's were the better team and they moved...), now just has 3 and while the team might be a second class citizen, it would be better than what's going on in Tampa right now.

But then, we're talking about the most notoriously bad sport at marketing itself and whose expansion selections are almost always driven by lawsuits or some form of commissioner sanctioned extortion or decision to avoid a place for the 'good of the game'.

Bleh. I can't see the Devil Rays hanging out in that ballpark until their lease ends. That current owner will probably sell the team himself or he'll be demanding a new park by 2010, saying that the team's woeful state is due to the lack of an adequate facility or something.

The Marlins might make a play for their stadium on the site of the Orange Bowl with it being demolished here before too long.

And Portland might be a good market if it were in the AL for baseball to provide the Mariners with a natural rival finally...but they've got to get someone to want to step up and help them get a stadium..and the political climate there for such a thing is way too toxic for that right now.

JonInMiddleGA

11-10-2007, 08:28 AM

I'd delete Indianapolis from the list as well(Only 108 miles difference between the distance from Cincy to Indy and 187 to Chicago). There's almost no way to move a team to Indianapolis without drawing a chunk of the Reds TV base.

Fair enough point, it was late & I was scuffling to remember all the pertinent distances.

Norfolk would work better than one would think
I just have a tough time imagining an MLB team being placed in the #42 TV market (717,400 HH), and I'm not at all sure that Richmond would be interested in adopting them. There's reasons that their play for Expos wasn't really taken seriously, being a meh media market is among those.

watravaler

11-10-2007, 09:16 AM

Wow, I don't even know what to say. Apparently you take offense to stats being discussed in baseball.

You can check Omar's defensive stats over the past 10 years (unless you're a big believer in fielding percentage). He's had 3 good years, 1 oustanding year, and a bunch of average years. But his fielding percentage sure does look purty.

Regardless, the Giants should be rebuilding and instead they commited up to $10 million over the next 2 years for a 41 year old shortstop that hit .246/.305/.316 last year. I'd take just about anyone under 30 over that.

I would as well, but a team can live with Vizquel if the surrounding talent is there. Unfortunately for the Giants, it isn't, but Omar will be a good mentor for the guy the Giants bring in to replace him.

ISiddiqui

11-10-2007, 11:01 AM

Well... the problem with Portland is that you have to redo the divisions ;).

Atocep

11-12-2007, 05:08 PM

The Cubs decided they didn't have enough light hitting middle infielders so they sent Jacque Jones to Detroit for Omar Infante.

Atocep

11-14-2007, 10:22 PM

A-Rod reportedly close to signing a 10-year contract with the Yankees for around $280 million with incentives that will push it up over $300 million.

JS19

11-14-2007, 10:51 PM

i suppose the way the yankees do business isn't as clear to the rest of the world as it is to us here in NY, since we get to read and listen about it everyday. This comes as no surprise to me. It's what they do, they go after the best. It would be a cold day in hell when the yankees let A-Rod just opt out and sign with another team, regardless of what the steinbrenners say.

bulletsponge

11-14-2007, 10:55 PM

anyone who pays A-rod that much money is an idiot.

molson

11-15-2007, 11:00 AM

How does any of this make any sense whatsoever?

I saw it the other way - I was shocked everybody seemed to rule this out as a possibility just because of the Yankees' tough talk.

Who else was going to pay him what he wants?

rkmsuf

11-15-2007, 11:34 AM

Maybe A-Rod just wanted to do his buddy in Texas a favor. You know. A little something for the effort. Like 21 million.

Logan

11-15-2007, 05:29 PM

Atocep

11-15-2007, 05:32 PM

So what can you Colorado guys tell me about Yorvit Torrealba? From what I understand, not the biggest hitter (hopefully mitigated by Ramon Castro getting a lot of time behind the plate too) but very good at handling pitchers and calling the game.

As a Mets fan I'm not really excited about this move. Unfortunately, there aren't exactly any good catchers out there right now they could go get. I think Castro could give them better production for 1 year than Torrealba will.

I haven't seen any dollar figures on the deal yet, but I'm going to assume they overpayed.

Logan

11-15-2007, 05:35 PM

Word was 3 years, $15 million. I'm not sure Castro could hold up for 120 games.

Atocep

11-15-2007, 05:38 PM

Word was 3 years, $15 million. I'm not sure Castro could hold up for 120 games.

Not sure Torrealba can either. He played 113 games this past year and his previous high before that was 66.

$15 million isn't horrible (compared to what I expected), though. I was assuming the number was going to be in the 20s.

Logan

11-15-2007, 05:42 PM

Not sure Torrealba can either. He played 113 games this past year and his previous high before that was 66.

Obviously a fair point...but at least Torrealba has the body type that could hold up to full-time responsibility (compared to Castro's 6'3", 250). If I remember correctly, the Rockies were hoping Ianetta would be the guy, so he got most of the time at the start of the season, so it's not like he has only played that many games because of fatigue, injury, ineffectiveness, etc. More a lack of opportunity.

Eaglesfan27

11-15-2007, 05:53 PM

The Yankees and Rodriguez have agreed to a 10 year deal worth about 275 million with incentives that can push it up over 300 million.

Edit: Now they are saying they have just agreed in principal and final details have to be worked out.

Ryan S

11-15-2007, 06:05 PM

I'm not surprised he's back - what I am surprised by is that it would appear that the NYY have all the leverage in the situation, and are still giving him a contract that appears to be more than they initially offered, and more than I believe he would get on the open market.

I heard that the proposed yearly salary is lower than they were going to offer him before he opted out, but the contract is a couple of years longer.

It is impossible to predict what he would get on the open market, especially if he had taken his time to decide. Did anyone predict the $252 million contract last time?

Buccaneer

11-15-2007, 06:50 PM

Sheesh, Jake wins the Cy unanimously and gets overshadowed by an arrogant fathead and the Yankees.

Brillig

11-15-2007, 07:45 PM

Not sure Torrealba can either. He played 113 games this past year and his previous high before that was 66.

$15 million isn't horrible (compared to what I expected), though. I was assuming the number was going to be in the 20s.

I wouldn't worry too much about Torrealba holding up physically. He's still relatively young - the reason his previous high was so low is that he was always a backup at the ML level. In the minors he caught over 100 games regularly.

Brillig

11-15-2007, 07:46 PM

Well, that's essentially the same case here. Who else was bidding against Texas the last time A-Rod signed a deal of this size? The contract he signed was WAAAAY over what anyone else was offering. I'm just not seeing how this is toooo much different.

You're right, it's impossible to predict, but at the same time it didn't seem to most that A-Rod was going to get what he was looking for. Teams were backing off left and right. Sure, some of thats gamesmanship, but other than Moreno, I don't see anyone giving him anything like what the Yankees did. And Moreno's position was "uninterested." A-Rod would have had to wait until Lowell signed somewhere and Cabrera was traded somewhere before he had any chance at signing this type of a contract.

Great quote from one of the Steinbrenners... "There are a few cynics who say, 'Well, he really couldn't get this there,' " Steinbrenner said. "Trust me, he would have gotten probably more. He is making a sacrifice to be a Yankee, there's no question. ... He showed what was really in his heart and what he really wanted."

QuikSand

11-15-2007, 07:49 PM

I heard that the proposed yearly salary is lower than they were going to offer him before he opted out, but the contract is a couple of years longer.

It is impossible to predict what he would get on the open market, especially if he had taken his time to decide. Did anyone predict the $252 million contract last time?

Does anyone else think that the "Boras clause" played a major role here? To me, the $272 figure sure sounds like $300 minus 10%, as if the Yankees were basically saying "hey, if you leave dickhead out of this, we can make quick work of this crap" and it sold. I have no idea if Boras still gets his full share with this deal, but it seemed like that margin was deliberate, to me.

ISiddiqui

11-15-2007, 10:14 PM

Sheesh, Jake wins the Cy unanimously and gets overshadowed by an arrogant fathead and the Yankees.

To be honest, the only drama over the NL Cy Young was whether Peavy was going to be unanimous or if some idiot would vote for his hometown fave, making Peavy one short. Basically, everyone knew who was going to win.

Buccaneer

11-15-2007, 10:18 PM

I agree but when CC won, they had a feature article/photo at Sportsline. I think Jake would have had one too if it wasn't for that fucktard.

ISiddiqui

11-15-2007, 10:21 PM

I agree but when CC won, they had a feature article/photo at Sportsline. I think Jake would have had one too if it wasn't for that fucktard.

CC's was a close win over Beckett.

Besides, said "fucktard" is the best player in baseball. I'd say his decision as to where he's going trumps any award (even his own MVP ;)).

edit: Oh, wait... you mean the other fucktard.

Galaril

11-16-2007, 12:00 AM

DaddyTorgo

11-16-2007, 12:02 AM

Well, my fear has manifested itself. The sox let probably the greatest 3b they have had in history or at least in the last 40 years walk and probably heading to one of our two biggest competitors the Yanks or Angels. Geez they gave JD Drew like 14 mill a year or something like that. They obviously didn't think that Lowell would get 4 year offers. He looks to get a deal of 56 for 4 years 14 mill a year. I am sure the Sox offered him a 3 year deal at 44 with maybe ateam option for 4th year at 10 mill he would of taken. So, if the Sox were which I think they were pinning their 3rd basemen hopes on A-Rod leaving the Yanks they fucked that up. I guess we could sign Joe Creede the yankees leftovers:}

or maybe fatty cabrera? or maybe it's the prelude to a massive offer to arod, ripping him away from the yankees :(

Atocep

11-16-2007, 12:07 AM

If they lose him I don't see it as being that huge. He's 33 and coming off of a career year, I wouldn't want to see my team give him a 4 year deal either. Let someone else overpay for a guy that doesn't hit all that well away from Fenway and had been in decline prior to this year.

He had a fantastic year, but its smart baseball to not get all nostalgic during negotiations and cave in.

BishopMVP

11-16-2007, 12:30 AM

Well, my fear has manifested itself. The sox let probably the greatest 3b they have had in history or at least in the last 40 years walk and probably heading to one of our two biggest competitors the Yanks or Angels. Geez they gave JD Drew like 14 mill a year or something like that. They obviously didn't think that Lowell would get 4 year offers. He looks to get a deal of 56 for 4 years 14 mill a year. I am sure the Sox offered him a 3 year deal at 44 with maybe ateam option for 4th year at 10 mill he would of taken. So, if the Sox were which I think they were pinning their 3rd basemen hopes on A-Rod leaving the Yanks they fucked that up. I guess we could sign Joe Creede the yankees leftovers:}Johnny Damon and Pedro Martinez say hi from 2004. I like Lowell, but he'll be done by year 3 of any contract, if not sooner. It was a career year and his home/away splits were ridiculous. If someone offers him 4/56 take the supp picks and move on, but with the Yankees signing A-Rod are they really gonna pay Lowell that to play 1st Base? Moreno doesn't sound like he's dumb enough.

sterlingice

11-16-2007, 07:53 AM

Well, my fear has manifested itself. The sox let probably the greatest 3b they have had in history or at least in the last 40 years walk and probably heading to one of our two biggest competitors the Yanks or Angels. Geez they gave JD Drew like 14 mill a year or something like that. They obviously didn't think that Lowell would get 4 year offers. He looks to get a deal of 56 for 4 years 14 mill a year. I am sure the Sox offered him a 3 year deal at 44 with maybe ateam option for 4th year at 10 mill he would of taken. So, if the Sox were which I think they were pinning their 3rd basemen hopes on A-Rod leaving the Yanks they fucked that up. I guess we could sign Joe Creede the yankees leftovers:}

I think 'greatest Red Sox 3b in the last 40 years' might be selling some others a bit short (um... Wade Boggs maybe?) Lowell put together a nice year, but it wasn't much, if at all, better than a couple of years in Florida before they gave him away. And he was borderline All-Star good, not superhuman.

SI

Swaggs

11-16-2007, 08:24 AM

I think 'greatest Red Sox 3b in the last 40 years' might be selling some others a bit short (um... Wade Boggs maybe?) Lowell put together a nice year, but it wasn't much, if at all, better than a couple of years in Florida before they gave him away. And he was borderline All-Star good, not superhuman.

SI

You beat me to it.

How does a Red Sox fan forget about Wade Boggs (a guy that was just inducted into the Hall of Fame)?

Particularly for a guy, like Lowell, who only spent a few decent years with them.

JPhillips

11-16-2007, 08:28 AM

Every player that's ever played for the Red Sox is the greatest player to have ever played for the Red Sox.

miami_fan

11-16-2007, 08:47 AM

You beat me to it.

How does a Red Sox fan forget about Wade Boggs (a guy that was just inducted into the Hall of Fame)?

Particularly for a guy, like Lowell, who only spent a few decent years with them.

Any Red Sox player without a ring is irrelevant:D

miami_fan

11-16-2007, 07:29 PM

Not A-Rod.....yet

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3115010

Free-agent pitcher Kenny Rogers abruptly fired his agent Scott Boras and is now representing himself in present contract negotiations, MLB.com reports.

Rogers, who told MLB.com Thursday that he still hoped to re-sign with the Detroit Tigers, informed Major League teams Friday afternoon that he formally severed his business relationship with Boras, the league's Internet arm reported.

The dismissal by Rogers, who had been talking to the Tigers but also exploring other options, was confirmed for ESPN.com by team sources.

The 43-year-old lefthander was 3-4 with a 4.43 ERA in an injury-shortened season for the Tigers after helping them reach the 2006 World Series.

Rogers informed all major league teams via e-mail of the split with Boras. MLB.com says the Tigers confirmed that they were notified.

The dismissal deals another blow to the high-profile agent, who wasn't a part of Alex Rodriguez's s contract talks this week with the New York Yankees, giving rise to criticism that he misread the market this offseason and is paying the consequences.

Boras was criticized this week by Yankees senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner for giving Rodriguez bad advice during the time before their decision to opt out of Rodriguez's Yankees contract.

Detroit president and general manager Dave Dombrowski said last week that the team has expressed an interest in having Rogers return. But he said from the GM meetings in Florida last week that he was told that Rogers "and his agent want to explore other options."

Over 19 seasons, Rogers is 210-143 with a 4.43 ERA and is a four-time All-Star and five-time Gold Glove winner.

For the first time since 2001, he did not win at least 13 games.

Rogers was limited to just 11 starts after having surgery before last season to remove a blood clot from his left shoulder and repair arteries. He went back on the DL later in the year with inflammation in his elbow.

Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.

Galaxy

11-17-2007, 07:29 PM

After recently posting a thread on Buffett and taxes, here's an interesting story:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3115789

Does Boras still get paid off his contract? Has free agency begain yet?

Atocep

11-17-2007, 07:40 PM

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

The Mets are looking at signing Eckstein to play 2nd. His asking price right now is 4 years and $36 million.

For the love of god this is my worst nightmare. I would probably choose to lose a minor body part rather than cheer for the team that signed Eckstein to a contract anywhere near that amount.

Young Drachma

11-17-2007, 07:48 PM

You knew this had to be coming...

Rays want new stadium (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3115966)

Not because they're good, but because the Florida Suncoast Dome was already nearly a decade old before they moved into it.

Big Fo

11-17-2007, 08:07 PM

Young Drachma

11-17-2007, 08:28 PM

Logan

11-18-2007, 01:40 AM

I was okay with a potential Eckstein deal when it was a year or two at $4 mil per. Those numbers are ridiculous.

Crapshoot

11-18-2007, 01:45 AM

But don't you all remember? He's scrappy! You can't measure Eckstein's scrappiness by pure statistics, you just have to know he clawed his way singlehandedly to the title with Anaheim. And helped the Cardinals overcome a lackluster year to win it all two years ago.

Maybe he's gonna get paid like a good luck charm ought to. ;)

I always enjoy how we sit and pretend its never racial - how the "little scrappy know how to win" guys that sportswriter adore are pretty much always white. :D

PS - I like Eckstein, and I admire what the guy has done - we could all learn a bunch from him about determination.

Young Drachma

11-18-2007, 01:54 AM

I always enjoy how we sit and pretend its never racial - how the "little scrappy know how to win" guys that sportswriter adore are pretty much always white. :D

PS - I like Eckstein, and I admire what the guy has done - we could all learn a bunch from him about determination.

No, it's not racial. Sportswriters and members of the media are so unbiased, unprejudiced and they just call it as they see it.

After all, it's 2007. Racism is all gone now. Merit is the only indicator of truth, fairness and the American way.

;)

Chief Rum

11-18-2007, 01:57 AM

Crapshoot

11-18-2007, 02:23 AM

Eckstein is a boon to any team that signs him, and he brings a lot more value than stat freaks tend to give him.

All that said, are you freakin' kidding me with that contract? And you thought $8 M/4 years was bad for Erstad?

What part of "I admire Eckstein and think we can learn from him" was problematic? You can have your team of HTWG (Hustling Telegenic White Guys) - I'll take a team of A-Rod's. Comfort yourself with your cliches.

Chief Rum

11-18-2007, 02:36 AM

What part of "I admire Eckstein and think we can learn from him" was problematic? You can have your team of HTWG (Hustling Telegenic White Guys) - I'll take a team of A-Rod's. Comfort yourself with your cliches.

Touched a nerve, did I? I didn't once think of anything you said in this thread when posting this. Get over yourself.

Thomkal

11-18-2007, 06:02 AM

Surprised my beloved Cards don't seem to be interested in resigning Eckstein. Though with that contract offer, perhaps I'm not.

Atocep

11-18-2007, 11:06 AM

ISiddiqui

11-18-2007, 11:22 AM

Eckstein is a boon to any team that signs him, and he brings a lot more value than stat freaks tend to give him.

For like... oh, $2 mil a year, sure.

Crapshoot

11-18-2007, 01:10 PM

Touched a nerve, did I? I didn't once think of anything you said in this thread when posting this. Get over yourself.

Ignorance always touches a nerve. At least you're easily identifiable as a purveyor.

molson

11-18-2007, 01:16 PM

Every player that's ever played for the Red Sox is the greatest player to have ever played for the Red Sox.

Not Heathcliff Slocumb

MrBug708

11-18-2007, 01:43 PM

Crapshoot

11-18-2007, 02:00 PM

I'm sure Coletti will somehow find it in his heart to offer him 5 years 60 million

*crosses fingers*. Between Colletti and Sabean, the Dodgers and Giants are going to spend the next few years competing for 4th place.

Chief Rum

11-18-2007, 03:16 PM

Ignorance always touches a nerve. At least you're easily identifiable as a purveyor.

Got it. You're real adult now, handing out insults. I had thought you better than this. I was wrong.

Logan

11-18-2007, 09:23 PM

Castillo back to the Mets for 4 years, $25 million. Not crazy about the years but apparently it was necessary.

Rich1033

11-18-2007, 10:34 PM

Not Heathcliff Slocumb

Sure he is, he turned into Varitek and Lowe. God that was a horrible trade.

MrBug708

11-19-2007, 11:38 AM

Angels trade Gold Glove SS Orlando Cabrerra to the White Sox for Jon Garland. I would imagine they just cleared SS for Brandon Wood meaning they aren't trading for Miggy?

Atocep

11-19-2007, 11:47 AM

I'm sure Coletti will somehow find it in his heart to offer him 5 years 60 million

You can blame idiots like Bill Plaschke for running DePodesta out of town. He wasn't the best GM in baseball, but he helped build and mainain the farm system.

Whats funny is the 2 things he complained about the most (the LoDuca trade and signing JD Drew) ended up being good moves. The Drew signing, especially, showed what an idiot Plaschke is, too. First, he complained that the contract he was given was ridiculous and it was typical of a stat geek. Then he complained 2 years later because he gave him an out clause.

I remember reading the stupid columns Plaschke wrote after they hired DePodesta about how he was the perfect man for the job and he brings old school scouting in to replace the stat geek that just didn't get it.

Atocep

11-19-2007, 11:51 AM

Angels trade Gold Glove SS Orlando Cabrerra to the White Sox for Jon Garland. I would imagine they just cleared SS for Brandon Wood meaning they aren't trading for Miggy?

Excellent move.

Garland isn't a great pitcher or anything, but on the open market he'd easily pull in $60-80 mil. They sold high on a 33 year old SS that was blocking their best prospect and got a servicable 28 year old arm in return.

More teams should be willing to make moves before players start to decline rather than hold onto them too long, let them block other players development, then try to sell low on them.

ISiddiqui

11-19-2007, 12:21 PM

Castillo back to the Mets for 4 years, $25 million. Not crazy about the years but apparently it was necessary.

As long as it keeps Eckstein away, I'm happy with it.

ISiddiqui

11-19-2007, 12:22 PM

WHDH is reporting Mike Lowell resigns with the Red Sox. That's the only source so far, so caveat emptor.

Now ESPN is running with it:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3118926

miked

11-19-2007, 12:43 PM

I was just reading through the archives and seeing that in 1998, the Mariners wanted Mike Lowell and Hideki Irabu for Randy Johnson and Cashman balked. Instead, they passed on RJ and picked up minor league pitchers Ed Yarnall, Mark Johnson and Todd Noel. Sometimes I think if you gave me a 400M budget, I might be able to make it out of the first round once every few years...

Chief Rum

11-19-2007, 05:09 PM

Angels trade Gold Glove SS Orlando Cabrerra to the White Sox for Jon Garland. I would imagine they just cleared SS for Brandon Wood meaning they aren't trading for Miggy?

Is that Dodger fan hopeful thinking?

No, actually, this makes a deal for Miggy Cab even more likely. Before this deal, we already had Escobar, Lackey, Weaver, Santana, Saunders and Mosely for our rotation. Now we add Garland. Anyone think we're planning on carrying seven starters next year?

At least one of those (probably Santana or Saunders) will go to Florida as part of a MCab deal. Or to Baltimore for Tejada. I am hoping for the first.

Crapshoot

11-19-2007, 05:11 PM

Chief Rum

11-19-2007, 05:11 PM

Excellent move.

Garland isn't a great pitcher or anything, but on the open market he'd easily pull in $60-80 mil. They sold high on a 33 year old SS that was blocking their best prospect and got a servicable 28 year old arm in return.

More teams should be willing to make moves before players start to decline rather than hold onto them too long, let them block other players development, then try to sell low on them.

Complete agreement here on all points. Exactly the right time to deal OCab, and also got Garland when his value was lower. The guy doesn't have great stuff or nothing, but he has won 18 games two times, has a WS ring, has pitched over 200 IPs four seasons in a row and is exactly the type of pitcher who can do well in Angels Stadium. And he's just 28.

Chief Rum

11-19-2007, 05:14 PM

Great deal for the Angels, and it does seem like a precursor to another deal. That being said, even without that, I think they win the deal, and dropoff to Izturiz or Aybar will be pretty small. Wood, Santana and a mediocre prospect to Baltimore for Tejeda is what I imagine.

Yup, Izturis or Aybar (or Wood long term if he isn't dealt) will be fine replacements there. Not much drop off at all.

I see the Tejada deal you propose as a possibility, but I really hope that doesn't happen. IMO, getting Tejada now is sorta the opposite of what we did with OCab, buying high for a player clearly on the downside. And that doesn't even touch that he hasn't been that solid for a couple years now and there were steroid rumors around him.

MrBug708

11-19-2007, 05:26 PM

Crapshoot

11-19-2007, 05:28 PM

Yup, Izturis or Aybar (or Wood long term if he isn't dealt) will be fine replacements there. Not much drop off at all.

I see the Tejada deal you propose as a possibility, but I really hope that doesn't happen. IMO, getting Tejada now is sorta the opposite of what we did with OCab, buying high for a player clearly on the downside. And that doesn't even touch that he hasn't been that solid for a couple years now and there were steroid rumors around him.

I agree with you on that, but I think the Angels are under some pressure to "make a move." Tejada's defense is borderline awful at this stage. I'm not as high on Wood as many (I see Jose Hernandez 2.0, which is not a bad player, but not a star), but he's cheap and capable. Wood, Santana, Adenhart and Wiltis for Cabrera would be an expensive price (well, I think Wiltis is another "gritty hustler" type who's likely to flail, but the Marlins need a CF), but perhaps worthwhile to the Angels.

Chief Rum

11-19-2007, 05:40 PM

Mostly Dodger fan hoping. I would think that the Dodgers have the better pitching prospects with the Marlins wanting Billingsly and that is a trade I wouldn't do. I think the Dodgers next bat will be one of the CF's.

I think if the Dodgers trade both Billingsley and Kershaw, the Marlins would take that. But everything I have heard says they won't do that. And Adenhart seems as attractive to the Marlins as either Billingsley or Kershaw by themselves. And we're willing to deal Santana, too, who, for all his crapitude last year is still a young pitcher with a lot of upside. So that might gice us an edge unless Coletti breaks and give Florida the farm (which he might).

I have heard of Hunter wanting to go to the Dodgers and, IMO, you guys should jump on that. Terrific defensively, great in the clubhouse, a good media guy, tons of playoff experience, and he will lead your team in HRs (unless Kemp gets full time and takes another step). If we hadn't spurged questionably on Matthews last year, I would be pushing for Hunter for the Angels.

Chief Rum

11-19-2007, 05:45 PM

I agree with you on that, but I think the Angels are under some pressure to "make a move." Tejada's defense is borderline awful at this stage. I'm not as high on Wood as many (I see Jose Hernandez 2.0, which is not a bad player, but not a star), but he's cheap and capable. Wood, Santana, Adenhart and Wiltis for Cabrera would be an expensive price (well, I think Wiltis is another "gritty hustler" type who's likely to flail, but the Marlins need a CF), but perhaps worthwhile to the Angels.

I agree, they are under pressure. But I really hope that pressure translates into them making a bigger deal for MCab rather than overspending for Tejada. I also agree that if the Marlins want Willits, we deal him in a second. Even though it wasn't that great a season, last year was definitely Willits best as a pro player, and he was only average defensively and had no power at all, and hit much higher for average than he ever had. I liked that he was able to get on base, which is something the Angels generally lack, and of course he's a neat little player to have around, but if he has value now, trading him now would be the right time to do it.

I think Wood will be a bit better than Jose Hernandez, but not as high as prognosticators have had him. Maybe Troy Glaus? But with a little better average and a little less power.

I would do that deal for MCab in a second. Especially because Kendrick would not be a part of it.

MrBug708

11-19-2007, 05:46 PM

From another board Chief. (Made about 4 days ago) One of the posters was a tat bar wherehe talked with Arte for about 45 minutes

*just from the expression on his face, wasn't too happy about the whole AROD/Boras thing, and the Yanks are giving him way more then the Angels will.

*B Wood is untouchable, will not be traded.

*Angels had KROD signed to an extension, all they needed was the sig. Yankees gave the offer to Rivera, then KROD walked

*Angels will be adding an arm soon. Not Carlos Silva type...

*I think there is a good chance that Miggy Cabrera will be playing for the Angels next year.

MrBug708

11-19-2007, 05:47 PM

I think if the Dodgers trade both Billingsley and Kershaw, the Marlins would take that. But everything I have heard says they won't do that. And Adenhart seems as attractive to the Marlins as either Billingsley or Kershaw by themselves. And we're willing to deal Santana, too, who, for all his crapitude last year is still a young pitcher with a lot of upside. So that might gice us an edge unless Coletti breaks and give Florida the farm (which he might).

I have heard of Hunter wanting to go to the Dodgers and, IMO, you guys should jump on that. Terrific defensively, great in the clubhouse, a good media guy, tons of playoff experience, and he will lead your team in HRs (unless Kemp gets full time and takes another step). If we hadn't spurged questionably on Matthews last year, I would be pushing for Hunter for the Angels.

I think the Dodgers are testing the waters to see what can be done about Johan Santana as well.

Chief Rum

11-19-2007, 05:51 PM

From another board Chief. (Made about 4 days ago) One of the posters was a tat bar wherehe talked with Arte for about 45 minutes

Interesting, since one of those things has certainly come true.

The Rivera thing and KRod has been a topic of conversation on the Angels board (the potential relationship, not that KRod and the Angels had an agreement).

This might be contrary to popular thinking, but I actually wouldn't be against deadling KRod. His rep is still huge and the numbers have been there. But watching him day after day, I can tell you, he is a walking cardiac arrest. If he can help us get another big bat, deal him now, move Shields to closer, sign a couple more middle relief guys like the Angels do so well, and move on.

Chief Rum

11-19-2007, 05:53 PM

BTW, lol, you know Moreno must be the most accessible billionaire owner of all time. Except for maybe Mark Cuban. It seems like several regular joes have gotten a chance to talk to him in the past months, and he talks openly about plans for the Angels, lol. He even managed to get himself on an ESPN college football broadcast (although that was ESPN, of course).

sterlingice

11-19-2007, 07:54 PM

Angels trade Gold Glove SS Orlando Cabrerra to the White Sox for Jon Garland. I would imagine they just cleared SS for Brandon Wood meaning they aren't trading for Miggy?

Great move for the Angels. What again were the White Sox thinking?

KC motto for next year: Royals for 4th place in '08. Baby Steps!

SI

DeToxRox

11-19-2007, 08:06 PM

Garland isn't exactly great. He's decent and might benefit playing in Anaheim, but outside of two years ago, he hasn't done anything that impressive. That said, Cabrera is in the same boat. Offensively, he benefited greatly hitting in front of Vladdie, so I look at this as an Angels win only because Garland will be a good 4th type starter, and they replace Cabrera with a potential stud at SS.

MrBug708

11-19-2007, 08:31 PM

Another rumor floating around is Matt Kemp for Erik Bedard

dawgfan

11-19-2007, 09:17 PM

Atocep

11-19-2007, 09:29 PM

Put me in the "not that impressed by Garland" camp. He doesn't strike people out, he doesn't get ground balls - about the best thing he does is not walk a lot of guys, along with staying healthy. He's basically been league-average, but had a couple years there where the White Sox scored a lot of runs for him and he was able to win 18.

I don't know enough about how Angels Stadium and New Comiskey play in terms of fly balls to really make a judgment about what to expect out of him next year, but it appears as though he's due for a fall, especially if his home runs per fly ball numbers regress toward the mean, his groundball percentage stays low and his strikeout rate continues to drop.

I don't think it's a bad deal for Anaheim, but I'm not sure it makes them much better.

I think its more about the value they get more than anything else. As a bargaining chip Garland will get much more than Cabrera if they decided to flip him to another team. A 28 year old inning eater with a career ERA+ of 106 doesn't sound all that hot, but in a market where Carlos Silva is asking for more than $8 million per its pretty nice.

The Angels managed to swap an aging SS coming off a career year for a pitcher that has been fairly reliable the last 3 years and is in his prime.

This is a bad deal for the White Sox. This an excellent move in terms of the value trading hands for the Angels.

ISiddiqui

11-19-2007, 10:44 PM

Well, in addition it opens up a spot for a highly regarded prospect for the Angels. If they decide to keep Garland, he's a 4th Starter that they got for an average bat / above average glove SS.

ISiddiqui

11-20-2007, 01:34 PM

Rollins wins the NL MVP?! WTF?!

Atocep

11-20-2007, 01:35 PM

Rollins wins the NL MVP?! WTF?!

Dude was clutch this year.

rkmsuf

11-20-2007, 01:36 PM

Jimmy likes the MVP.

ISiddiqui

11-20-2007, 01:43 PM

Crapshoot

11-20-2007, 01:58 PM

I'm looking at the numbers and they just gave the NL MVP to a guy who wasn't even in the Top 10 in the NL in OBP or SLG. Are you kidding me?

Usually if its someone I consider somewhat deserving, whatever. But Rollins isn't even close. If they wanted to pick a Philly, pick Utley!!! At least Utley was 8th in the NL in adjusted OPS+. Rollins.. not in the Top 10. Hell, not close to it.

At least Utley would be a mediocre choice. Rollins is just a BAD choice.

Eh, he finished 8th in WS. I think David Wright was the MVP, but it wasn't quite the idiocy of the Morneau victory last year. Regarding Utley, remember that he missed a month and that hurt his counting stats.

Atocep

11-20-2007, 02:04 PM

Eh, he finished 8th in WS. I think David Wright was the MVP, but it wasn't quite the idiocy of the Morneau victory last year. Regarding Utley, remember that he missed a month and that hurt his counting stats.

Wright was 4th and Pujols was 9th. Utley was 8th.

I agree that this isn't quite as bad as Morneau last year, but the guys that really should have won didn't come close. That wasn't just picking the wrong guy, it was horrible voting.

Prince Fielder and Ryan Howard shouldn't have been in the top 10, let alone both being in the top 5.

Atocep

11-20-2007, 02:10 PM

MikeVic

11-20-2007, 02:12 PM

http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=150093

Soriano looks like a beaver in this picture.

ISiddiqui

11-20-2007, 02:18 PM

Eh, he finished 8th in WS. I think David Wright was the MVP, but it wasn't quite the idiocy of the Morneau victory last year. Regarding Utley, remember that he missed a month and that hurt his counting stats.

Saying it wasn't as bad as Mourneau is like saying, well, at least your team wasn't as bad as the Devil Rays. That's not high praise. Yes, Rollins did finish 8th in the NL in Win Shares, which also goes to show that it wasn't a good pick for the award.

Young Drachma

11-20-2007, 02:21 PM

Gotta love bias. Man...all of those kids are gonna flee Colorado like the plague when they get the chance.

Chief Rum

11-20-2007, 02:33 PM

Rollins was a GG winner, and stole 41 bases. He and Granderson were the first players to get 20 or more in the power hit stats and SBs in how long? And he (from what I read) seemed to be the leader of that team as they went on their charge to the playoffs.

I understand where you guys are coming from, but I'm not too put off by Rollins winning. There were plenty of comparable candidates, but there's a bugaboo for all of them, IMO (including Rollins).

Young Drachma

11-20-2007, 02:47 PM

ISiddiqui

11-20-2007, 02:55 PM

Rollins playing in Philadelphia is what helped him more than anything. Not that he's undeserving. He was a beast this season. But...the end of season hype that was generated made him the winner more than anything.

I'll disagree with the he's not undeserving part, but the rest I agree. He played on a team that made it into the playoffs because the team ahead of them had an amazin' collapse when they got hot at the end of the season. A couple losses more, or wins by said amazin' collapse team, and David Wright wins this MVP Award in a wash.

Chief Rum

11-20-2007, 03:03 PM

I'll disagree with the he's not undeserving part, but the rest I agree. He played on a team that made it into the playoffs because the team ahead of them had an amazin' collapse when they got hot at the end of the season. A couple losses more, or wins by said amazin' collapse team, and David Wright wins this MVP Award in a wash.

Yup, agree completely.

Logan

11-20-2007, 03:28 PM

I really don't have a problem with Rollins (or even Holliday) winning. But if Wright wasn't Wright during August and September, the Mets historic collapse wouldn't have happened...because they wouldn't have been in 1st place on September 1st and therefore would've finished 6 games back of the Phils.

In August, he hit .394 with 6 HRs, 21 RBIs, .516 OBP, .657 SLG.

In September, he hit .352 with 6 HRs, 20 RBIs, .432 OBP, .602 SLG.

MrBug708

11-20-2007, 05:41 PM

Indians signed Kobayashi. I'm assuming the former hot dog eating champion has a brother who can play?

MrBug708

11-20-2007, 05:42 PM

Dola

Report on the radio here said that Hunter is close to signing with the ChiSox?

Chief Rum

11-20-2007, 06:01 PM

Dola

Report on the radio here said that Hunter is close to signing with the ChiSox?

Wouldn't surprise me. I have been seeing Internet reports of the possibility for more than a day now.

highfiveoh

11-20-2007, 06:10 PM

Can't see Hunter signing this soon. Not unless he doesn't want to get every possible offer before signing.

JS19

11-20-2007, 06:11 PM

What sucks is they had actually been doing pretty well with the awards this year. I was actually starting to think they were looking at meaningful stats rather than clutch and hustle and other stupid shit.

I seriously have no idea how they chose Jimmy Rollins. What stat or intangible says Jimmy Rollins was the MVP in the National League this year?

Not trying to turn this into a stats guy v. clutch guy debate, but what meaningful stats are you speaking of?? To me, a guy who comes up with a base hit with a man in scoring position, or keeps an inning alive, or does anything that helps his team win, or put his team in position to win, is much more valuable than a guy who hits a grand slam in the 9th inning when the team is already winning by 8 runs. That's obviously a very simple example, but numbers don't always tell the story when in comes to MVP's, IMO.

lungs

11-20-2007, 06:23 PM

Atocep

11-20-2007, 06:26 PM

Not to mention the fact that he can't throw base stealers out.

Mets fans haven't seen a base runner thrown out since sometime in the '90s.

MrBug708

11-20-2007, 06:26 PM

Mets fans haven't seen a base runner thrown out since sometime in the '90s.

Who was the catcher before Hundley?

dervack

11-20-2007, 06:26 PM

That's ok, Brewers are going to be stuck with Jason Kendall. I'm sure a throw to second he made in October should be arriving at any second.

Atocep

11-20-2007, 06:44 PM

Not trying to turn this into a stats guy v. clutch guy debate, but what meaningful stats are you speaking of?? To me, a guy who comes up with a base hit with a man in scoring position, or keeps an inning alive, or does anything that helps his team win, or put his team in position to win, is much more valuable than a guy who hits a grand slam in the 9th inning when the team is already winning by 8 runs. That's obviously a very simple example, but numbers don't always tell the story when in comes to MVP's, IMO.

When you can show evidence that its a skill and part of a player's overall ability I'll listen. Hitting with runners in scoring position is a stat the fluctuates greatly from year to year and when the sample size gets close to a full season it ends up being close the player's career averages. Same for close and late and every other form of situational hitting.

As for the guy with the meaningless homer, if that guy is A-Rod I'd take him over a player like Derek Jeter or David Eckstein or countless other inferior players that know how to win every single time.

For Rollins, I simply asked somone to point out why he should be MVP, because I see no reason at all. His numbers don't show it. Him being the leader of a playoff team doesn't make him the most valuable player in the league. Best case anyone can make is Rollins finishes 3rd in the MVP behind Wright and Holliday. Pujols and Utley were also considerably better.

If the numbers aren't the only thing that decides who the MVP is, then what is taken into consideration? If its intangibles, then what are media members that rarely get to see Rollins play doing voting for him based on that?

To debunk the clutch factor in the voting for Rollins:

Season: .296/.344/.531
RISP: .272/.339/.538
RISP 2 OUT: .239/.302/.534
Close and Late: .255/.318/.490

I'm simply curious as to what pushed a person that was, at best, the 3rd or 4th best candidate to the top.

Chief Rum

11-20-2007, 06:49 PM

When you can show evidence that its a skill and part of a player's overall ability I'll listen. Hitting with runners in scoring position is a stat the fluctuates greatly from year to year and when the sample size gets close to a full season it ends up being close the player's career averages. Same for close and late and every other form of situational hitting.

As for the guy with the meaningless homer, if that guy is A-Rod I'd take him over a player like Derek Jeter or David Eckstein or countless other inferior players that know how to win every single time.

For Rollins, I simply asked somone to point out why he should be MVP, because I see no reason at all. His numbers don't show it. Him being the leader of a playoff team doesn't make him the most valuable player in the league. Best case anyone can make is Rollins finishes 3rd in the MVP behind Wright and Holliday. Pujols and Utley were also considerably better.

If the numbers aren't the only thing that decides who the MVP is, then what is taken into consideration? If its intangibles, then what are media members that rarely get to see Rollins play doing voting for him based on that?

To debunk the clutch factor in the voting for Rollins:

Season: .296/.344/.531
RISP: .272/.339/.538
RISP 2 OUT: .239/.302/.534
Close and Late: .255/.318/.490

I'm simply curious as to what pushed a person that was, at best, the 3rd or 4th best candidate to the top.

Once again, not saying I disagree with you, but...speed? Defense?

Young Drachma

11-20-2007, 06:59 PM

If defense matters so much, Tulo should've been ROY.

Chief Rum

11-20-2007, 07:02 PM

If defense matters so much, Tulo should've been ROY.

Different award, different qualifications under consideration.

Atocep

11-20-2007, 07:03 PM

Once again, not saying I disagree with you, but...speed? Defense?

See, thats where I would hope the voters would look a little deeper than just the basic stats. Rollins stole 41 bases and a high success rate, thats great. But his OBP was pretty average and he's a leadoff hitter. He won a gold glove, which I'm sure was a huge selling point to voters, but if voters did just a tiny bit of research they'd see that Rollins really didn't deserve the gold glove as there were easily 3-4 (if not more) players that should have gotten it over him.

The reason I was optimistic before was the ROY voting in the NL was incredibly close even though Braun set a MLB record for SLG for a rookie and put up some jaw dropping offensive numbers. CC Sabathia won the Cy Young despite not reaching the magical 20 win mark and putting up similar numbers at first glance as a 20 game winner. Even the Gold Glove voting this year wasn't horrible (No Derek Jeter!). The biggest head scratcher was probably Rollins, actually.

So what I'm saying is, I really did think voters were starting to turn the corner and after seeing how awful the voting for NL MVP was, I feel like its back to square one.

BTW, the bad voting goes beyond Rollins, as I pointed out earlier. Wright was 4th, Utley was 8th, Pujols was 9th.

Logan

11-20-2007, 08:15 PM

Mets fans,

Have fun with Johnny Estrada. I'm sure you'll enjoy the countless times he swings on a 3-1 count and hits into a double play.

Not to mention the fact that he can't throw base stealers out.

I guess we got crap in return, but hey, at least our crap won't be playing every day.

Estrada won't play everyday. With the options we had, having him as a lefty-righty platoon with Castro was definitely the best choice.

sterlingice

11-20-2007, 08:35 PM

http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=150093

Soriano looks like a beaver in this picture.

Good catch :)

SI

sterlingice

11-20-2007, 08:37 PM

Indians signed Kobayashi. I'm assuming the former hot dog eating champion has a brother who can play?

That's why the last name sounds familiar! I couldn't place it when I saw the news blurb the other day.

SI

Logan

11-20-2007, 08:39 PM

Famous character in my favorite movie of all time, The Usual Suspects.

lungs

11-20-2007, 09:04 PM

Estrada won't play everyday. With the options we had, having him as a lefty-righty platoon with Castro was definitely the best choice.

When the Brewers traded for him, I wondered why teams pass him around like a hot potato.

You'll find out soon enough. At least he won't be playing every day like you say.

But I'm not too excited about the prospects of Jason Kendall. It won't be so bad if it's the Kendall that showed up for the Cubs. He'll at least take a few pitches here and there. Estrada flails away at everything and plays crappy defense to top it off.

Logan

11-20-2007, 11:14 PM

I'll take that hot potato over another year of Paul Lo Duca, signing Michael Barrett, or giving up a good prospect for Ramon Hernandez.

lungs

11-21-2007, 09:45 AM

I'll take that hot potato over another year of Paul Lo Duca, signing Michael Barrett, or giving up a good prospect for Ramon Hernandez.

Estrada and LoDuca were actually fairly similar last year:

Estrada: .278/.296/.403
LoDuca: .272/.311/.378

Estrada had an OPS+ of 78 while LoDuca had an OPS+ of 80. Basically, LoDuca will get on base slightly more, while Estrada will give a little more pop. I will say that Estrada was hurt last year and recently had surgery to fix some things.

But the Mets may not even keep Estrada, as it looks like they will still look for catching according to this article:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2007/11/21/2007-11-21_mets_acquire_catcher_johnny_estrada-5.html

Chief Rum

11-21-2007, 03:26 PM

See, thats where I would hope the voters would look a little deeper than just the basic stats. Rollins stole 41 bases and a high success rate, thats great. But his OBP was pretty average and he's a leadoff hitter. He won a gold glove, which I'm sure was a huge selling point to voters, but if voters did just a tiny bit of research they'd see that Rollins really didn't deserve the gold glove as there were easily 3-4 (if not more) players that should have gotten it over him.

The reason I was optimistic before was the ROY voting in the NL was incredibly close even though Braun set a MLB record for SLG for a rookie and put up some jaw dropping offensive numbers. CC Sabathia won the Cy Young despite not reaching the magical 20 win mark and putting up similar numbers at first glance as a 20 game winner. Even the Gold Glove voting this year wasn't horrible (No Derek Jeter!). The biggest head scratcher was probably Rollins, actually.

So what I'm saying is, I really did think voters were starting to turn the corner and after seeing how awful the voting for NL MVP was, I feel like its back to square one.

BTW, the bad voting goes beyond Rollins, as I pointed out earlier. Wright was 4th, Utley was 8th, Pujols was 9th.

Actually, given that Wright won a GG (albeit Chipper Jones questions that) and also stole 34 bases, along with his better offensive numbers, I would have given it to Wright as well. Still, I can see where the voters are coming from.

TazFTW

11-22-2007, 02:18 AM

Torii Hunter to the Angels.

Chief Rum

11-22-2007, 03:28 AM

Torii Hunter to the Angels.

Yup. Color me stunned. Hunter was one of my fave non-Angel players, but I didn't see this one coming at all. The fan of Hunter in me is ecstatic, the Angels fan in me is optimistic but abit confused and curious about what the Angels are doing, and the baseball fan in me is perhaps a little down because this is probably the single biggest step the Angels have taken to separating themselves from baseball in general and moving closer to the Red Sox and Yankees. Signing big to fill a need? Understandable, especially for a big market club. Signing big at a position where we already have too many players, even if we need the power? Hmm...

dervack

11-22-2007, 03:39 AM

And a shitload of money too. $18 million a year is quite a price.

Hammer755

11-22-2007, 08:05 AM

What an awful signing by the Angels. Hunter is a slightly above average player coming off a career year whose defensive rep is far better than his fielding these days. By year 3 of this deal, I'd be he'll be league average all around.

sterlingice

11-22-2007, 10:47 AM

I think Torii's asking price was insanely high but someone was going to pay it. I think saying he'll be league average at age 34 might be a bit of overkill as players with speed do age a little better tho he's only had 2 years well above league average.

As a sidebar- that reminds me of the type of "glass is half empty" hyperbole that abounds with the extreme sabermetric crowd. It's like talking to band snobs- anyone who is good is going to badly regress and the only players with any sort of upside are nobodys who never get a shot and probably never will and there's a reason (see players like Calvin Pickering).

SI

Galaxy

11-22-2007, 11:17 AM

Yup. Color me stunned. Hunter was one of my fave non-Angel players, but I didn't see this one coming at all. The fan of Hunter in me is ecstatic, the Angels fan in me is optimistic but abit confused and curious about what the Angels are doing, and the baseball fan in me is perhaps a little down because this is probably the single biggest step the Angels have taken to separating themselves from baseball in general and moving closer to the Red Sox and Yankees. Signing big to fill a need? Understandable, especially for a big market club. Signing big at a position where we already have too many players, even if we need the power? Hmm...

What's the success behind Anaheim's ability to spend more in recent years?

MrBug708

11-22-2007, 11:36 AM

A better owner

Atocep

11-22-2007, 11:44 AM

At first glance the dollars look way out of whack, but in a time when baseball is experiencing revenue gains at an astounding rate and are on pace to catch or pass the NFL in the next couple years in total revenue, we're going to see a lot of deals like this. Just like last offseason we're going to see a lot of free agent dollars thrown around that when compared to deals from 3-4 years ago look crazy. However, its just the price of doing business now.

As SI said, Hunter should age well and should be able to remain league average-ish for most of this contract. Not saying this is a good deal or anything right now, just saying you have to ante up to get players in today's market.

The biggest problem with the deal isn't the money, Moreno has plenty of that to throw around, its whether or not this fills any sort of need and I'd have to say no.

On a side note, I'm interested to see how Hunter plays defensively in Anaheim. Its a much better place for outfielders to play defensively. I'm not expecting anything drastic, since Hunter has been more or less league average densively the past couple years, but will be intersting to check at the end of the season.