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miami_fan
11-30-2007, 02:32 PM
I am not a big saber guy but this is an interesting read.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/11/30/james.clutch/index.html

Back in the early days of sabermetrics, when dinosaurs roamed the American League Western Division, we made a very fundamental mistake. A friend of mine wrote an article asserting, essentially, that clutch hitters don't exist. At the time, we lacked any real ability to study the issue. We didn't have access to play by play of the games. No one could plausibly assert that clutch hitting did exist, because we couldn't document it without access to the game accounts, but Dick Cramer had finagled access to a couple of seasons of old data, studied the data and concluded that it didn't. There was nowhere for the discussion to go.

It was about seven years after that before we began to have access to play by play, long before the data began to come on line, the discussion had stalled out at the assertion that clutch hitting did not exist.

In retrospect, this may not have been the best place to begin the discussion. A logical path for the discussion, it seems to me, would have been more like this:

1. Do you think clutch-hitting ability exists?
2. I don't know, what do you think?
3. I don't know. How would we study that?
4. Define a clutch situation and accumulate data on how players perform over a period of years? That would seem to work.
5. How would you define a clutch situation?

We would then proceed to debate the definition of a clutch situation, and gradually we would develop data, and perhaps even an understanding of the data.

Instead, the discussion went more like this:

(A) Clutch hitting doesn't exist.
(B) Umm...OK.
(C) I don't know...I think maybe it could exist.
(A & B in unison) Prove it.
(C) I can't prove it.
(A) OK then, it doesn't exist.
(B) If you can't prove it exists, we have to assume that it doesn't.

The discussion has been premised upon an assertion, rather than flowing from the question itself. What I have been trying to do for the last couple of years is to back up, define a clutch situation, begin accumulating data, and gradually go down the other path.

Some people find this confusing. "Why are you publishing this clutch data," they will ask, "when you don't have any reason to believe that there is such a thing as a clutch hitter?" But that's the thing: We're publishing the data because we don't know.

The other question everybody asks now is "How do you determine what is a clutch at-bat?" I'll have to stiff you on that one for right now. I'll explain it generally and leave the details for some other time.

"Clutch" is a complicated concept, containing at least seven elements:

1. The score,
2. The runners on base,
3. The outs,
4. The inning,
5. The opposition,
6. The standings,
7. The calendar.

Sometimes people look at things like batting average with runners in scoring position, batting average with runners in scoring position and two out, batting average in the late innings of close games. Those things are all interesting, but Tampa Bay playing Texas in April is not the same as San Diego playing Los Angeles in September.

We made up a system giving weight to each of these seven factors; not saying it's perfect, but you have to start somewhere. Baseball's most famous clutch hitter is David Ortiz, so let's start with him. The Big Papi's batting record in clutch situations, over the last six years.

David Ortiz
Season Avg OBP Slg OPS AB H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO GIDP
2002 .280 .345 .680 1.025 50 14 3 1 5 19 5 9 1
2003 .307 .376 .640 1.016 75 23 10 0 5 38 9 13 3
2004 .339 .413 .726 1.139 62 21 3 0 7 33 9 14 2
2005 .333 .422 .750 1.172 72 24 6 0 8 37 13 12 3
2006 .370 .475 .696 1.170 46 17 3 0 4 28 11 7 1
2007 .315 .435 .607 1.042 89 28 8 0 6 29 17 17 4
Totals .322 .413 .678 1.090 394 127 33 1 35 184 64 72 14



That's the regular season; I understand he's had a couple of hits in postseason as well. It's a pretty good record; in fact, you kind of have to see more data to understand how good it is. We've started an award for the major leagues' clutch hitter of the year, based on the data, and David could pretty much win it any year. Only a handful of players a year drive in 30 runs in clutch situations. As to whether these data prove that David is a clutch hitter ... I ain't going there. This discussion has been messed up for 30 years because we got our shoulders way out in front of our shoelaces. From now on, I'm holding back.

One thing you just have to accept in order to study this: "Clutch" is not an equal opportunity employer. Mike Sweeney has hit very well in the clutch, too --arguably better than Ortiz -- but few people have noticed because the canvas is so small:

Mike Sweeney
Season Avg OBP Slg OPS AB H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO GIDP
2002 .344 .462 .594 1.055 32 11 2 0 2 10 7 4 0
2003 .368 .467 .553 1.019 38 14 4 0 1 13 7 4 2
2004 .382 .432 .735 1.168 34 13 3 0 3 18 2 4 1
2005 .310 .364 .483 .846 29 9 2 0 1 9 3 7 4
2006 .429 .500 .786 1.286 14 6 2 0 1 8 1 3 1
2007 .333 .429 .833 1.262 12 4 0 0 2 3 1 2 0
Totals .358 .440 .629 1.069 159 57 13 0 10 61 21 24 8



Ortiz has had more than twice as many clutch at bats as Sweeney -- again, not counting the postseason. The statistician's tendency is to want to adjust that difference out of existence, but you can't. It's a fact of a life: The Royals don't play as many critical games as the Red Sox do. When the Red Sox wiped out in August of 2006, Ortiz' clutch at bats for the 2006 season dropped sharply because the Red Sox September games just did not mean as much as they have in the other years. The same thing happened to Albert Pujols in 2007. The Cardinals were out of it early, so Pujols did not have nearly as many clutch opportunities as he has had in other seasons. This is not a statistical artifact. That's the way it really is.

Who hasn't hit well in the clutch? Juan Pierre hasn't done great.

Juan Pierre
Season Avg OBP Slg OPS AB H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO GIDP
2002 .111 .111 .111 .222 27 3 0 0 0 1 0 3 0
2003 .318 .434 .364 .798 44 14 0 1 0 8 9 2 2
2004 .233 .327 .349 .675 43 10 1 2 0 10 5 3 0
2005 .309 .367 .382 .748 55 17 2 1 0 14 5 6 2
2006 .229 .289 .314 .604 35 8 1 1 0 4 2 4 2
2007 .190 .246 .206 .453 63 12 1 0 0 10 3 4 1
Totals .240 .311 .296 .607 267 64 5 5 0 47 24 22 7



Nobody would confuse Juan Pierre with David Ortiz anyway, but that's not a great clutch record for a guy who gets 200 hits a year. Ken Griffey Jr.'s clutch record is not impressive:

Ken Griffey Jr.
Season Avg OBP Slg OPS AB H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO GIDP
2002 .235 .400 .412 .812 17 4 0 0 1 4 6 5 1
2003 .105 .217 .263 .481 19 2 0 0 1 4 2 7 0
2004 .273 .342 .394 .736 33 9 1 0 1 11 4 3 1
2005 .353 .419 .647 1.066 34 12 1 0 3 22 6 8 0
2006 .233 .313 .550 .863 60 14 4 0 5 27 7 11 2
2007 .205 .319 .462 .781 39 8 1 0 3 12 7 9 2
Totals .243 .337 .485 .823 202 49 7 0 14 80 32 43 6



But it may be better than his teammate Adam Dunn's:

Adam Dunn
Season Avg OBP Slg OPS AB H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO GIDP
2002 .196 .439 .478 .918 46 9 1 0 4 16 17 19 0
2003 .189 .412 .459 .871 37 7 1 0 3 8 13 14 0
2004 .275 .393 .686 1.080 51 14 0 0 7 18 9 17 0
2005 .189 .434 .351 .785 37 7 0 0 2 8 15 12 0
2006 .206 .345 .471 .816 68 14 3 0 5 22 14 29 1
2007 .244 .368 .467 .835 45 11 1 0 3 13 10 18 1
Totals .218 .395 .493 .888 284 62 6 0 24 85 78 109 2



What Griffey's record would have been in his salad days, I don't know; we'll get to that, praise Retrosheet, but we haven't figured it yet. One guess from the little bit of data I have had the opportunity to study is that there may be a decentralization under pressure, the good hitters getting better and the weaker hitters struggling to stay where they are. This might be suggested by the clutch-hitting record of, for example, Chipper Jones:

Chipper Jones
Season Avg OBP Slg OPS AB H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO GIDP
2002 .356 .465 .610 1.075 59 21 3 0 4 17 12 9 2
2003 .354 .457 .615 1.072 65 23 5 0 4 18 14 7 1
2004 .211 .363 .423 .785 71 15 3 0 4 23 17 20 2
2005 .393 .506 .787 1.293 61 24 6 0 6 27 15 8 3
2006 .263 .400 .447 .847 38 10 1 0 2 14 10 6 1
2007 .333 .436 .652 1.087 66 22 6 0 5 27 12 13 6
Totals .319 .438 .594 1.032 360 115 24 0 25 126 80 63 15



Chipper's clutch-hitting record, apart from the RBI count, is close to a match for Ortiz'. It may be that most outstanding hitters tend to be even more outstanding when the game or the season is on the line. Albert Pujols certainly doesn't contest the point:

Albert Pujols
Season Avg OBP Slg OPS AB H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO GIDP
2002 .310 .416 .507 .923 71 22 5 0 3 26 14 6 3
2003 .364 .478 .673 1.151 55 20 5 0 4 19 12 7 2
2004 .317 .452 .730 1.183 63 20 8 0 6 27 18 11 6
2005 .278 .363 .506 .869 79 22 3 0 5 19 10 7 7
2006 .383 .524 .827 1.351 81 31 1 1 11 38 24 9 3
2007 .400 .527 .650 1.177 40 16 5 1 1 18 13 3 5
Totals .337 .456 .648 1.104 389 131 27 2 30 147 91 43 26



Eleven clutch homers in the Cardinals' championship season. Ortiz' career high is eight.

One reason that I have been reluctant to write about clutch hitting, in the absence of hard data, is that I am reluctant to interpret sporting events as tests of character. If you write that Johnny Baseball is a poor clutch hitter, what you are implicitly saying is that Johnny Baseball lacks courage. I am extremely reluctant to impugn the character of any player based on what could be a random data outcome.

And, in all candor, I am reluctant to buy into the other side of that, too. There is a strain of journalism as hero worship, a strain that asks us to believe that sports are tests of character, that those who come through at key moments of the game have reached down deep inside themselves and found the strength and courage to succeed. I don't want to get into that. I am willing to look at the data and see what they have to tell us, but I want to keep at arms' length any judgments about the character of the athletes. Sports talk show hosts may be comfortable doing that, but that's their job, it's not mine. This discussion has been fouled up for a long time, and my only goal is to straighten it out just a little bit.

Editor's note: Bill James is working on a new book (The Bill James Gold Mine 2008) and website (Bill James Online) to explore baseball issues such as this one at more length based on new data only now becoming available from Baseball Info Solutions.

st.cronin
11-30-2007, 02:35 PM
David Ortiz is clutch? Who would have guessed.

rkmsuf
11-30-2007, 02:37 PM
Bill James, let me introduce you to girls.

Young Drachma
11-30-2007, 02:42 PM
Baseball is so funny.

Young Drachma
11-30-2007, 02:43 PM
I do love it. I just think it's hilarious that some of the discussions in baseball are things like "can we measure a player's success in critical situations versus others?" "No!" "Yes!" "Let's come up with a number for it and measure it!"

Too great. Other sports? They barely keep records.

miami_fan
11-30-2007, 02:46 PM
I am waiting for him to calculate Derek Jeter's clutch numbers.:cool:

molson
11-30-2007, 03:08 PM
Peforming well (or poorly) in high-pressure situations is a huge part of almost every facet of life - whether it be a job interview, a date, or a big presentation. The fact that some people feel this concept doesn't apply to hitting a baseball always boggled my mind.

larrymcg421
11-30-2007, 03:13 PM
Yeah, I think it's silly to assume that there aren't people who bring their best in high pressure situations and other people who just can't handle the stress.

Huckleberry
11-30-2007, 03:24 PM
The problem becomes that if they had "brought their best" all game or all season long then the clutch situation might not have been required and their team would already have the win or the playoff position wrapped up.

And without a definition of clutch situations and full stats for everyone the numbers in the charts don't mean much. Ortíz has had a 1.000+ OPS overall the last 3 years. Overall offensive production goes up with runners on base, for example. Obviously this piece is a teaser for the full study, but we have to see what the full numbers show. I don't doubt the existence of some hitters that do well in high-pressure situations. I do doubt the existence of hitters that seriously outpace their normal production in high-pressure situations.

And, as I said above, if I see someone that does that I will have two reactions. 1) Why don't they hit like that all the time and help their team more? 2) Who's to say that the pitchers didn't choke more often against him versus his being clutch?

The clutch hitting argument is silly because it completely ignores the impact the pitcher has. If hitters can choke then a pitcher can choke, too. Albert Pujols' famous home run in the 2005 NLCS came against a hanging slider right over the middle of the plate. Pujols would have creamed that pitch in batting practice.

Atocep
11-30-2007, 03:57 PM
The problem becomes that if they had "brought their best" all game or all season long then the clutch situation might not have been required and their team would already have the win or the playoff position wrapped up.

And without a definition of clutch situations and full stats for everyone the numbers in the charts don't mean much. Ortíz has had a 1.000+ OPS overall the last 3 years. Overall offensive production goes up with runners on base, for example. Obviously this piece is a teaser for the full study, but we have to see what the full numbers show. I don't doubt the existence of some hitters that do well in high-pressure situations. I do doubt the existence of hitters that seriously outpace their normal production in high-pressure situations.

And, as I said above, if I see someone that does that I will have two reactions. 1) Why don't they hit like that all the time and help their team more? 2) Who's to say that the pitchers didn't choke more often against him versus his being clutch?

The clutch hitting argument is silly because it completely ignores the impact the pitcher has. If hitters can choke then a pitcher can choke, too. Albert Pujols' famous home run in the 2005 NLCS came against a hanging slider right over the middle of the plate. Pujols would have creamed that pitch in batting practice.

Exactly.

To add to this, if you asked 10 people to define clutch situations you'd get 10 different answers, so the numbers you see for clutch hitting in studies is going to vary. This is a big part of what makes it impossible to measure, it just doesn't have a definition.

Good hitters do well in clutch situations. Bad hitters don't. Take Griffey and Dunn who are shown there. Their numbers look bad at first glance, but what throws them off is batting average. Batting average can fluctuate greatly from year to year so 284 and 202 ABs isn't enough to prove anything. Sweeney? The bulk of his opportunities are from '02-'04 which are seasons he had an OPS in the 1.000 range anyways. Ortiz and Chipper are great hitters, Pierre sucks.

Are there going to be players who's clutch numbers (however they're defined) don't line up with their career numbers? Of course. However, to really gain anything from that info you'd have to compare the percentage of players who are noticably off of their career norms to the percentage of players that simply have off years in any given season. You'd also need a sample size that is at least close to a season's worth of ABs.

molson
11-30-2007, 04:01 PM
The clutch hitting argument is silly because it completely ignores the impact the pitcher has..

True, and I think a ton of baseball analysis (both statistical and just casual observation) fail in this same way.

The hitter, the pitcher, and sometimes, a fielder, impact the outcome of a play. For the purposes of discussion, say it's 45/45/10 over the course of a season. I think as fans, we tend to think of it more as 100/100/0, both on a season as a whole, and on individual at-bat outcomes. (If Ortiz hits 3 HRs in a 5 game playoff series, we think of it as Ortiz' accomplishment 100%, without really factoring in the pitcher's contributions).

Subby
11-30-2007, 04:08 PM
I think it is great when you can measure stuff quantitatively - that way you have ammunition when the fan boys try to argue stuff that is purely based on limited anecdotal and (often) flawed or biased observations.

I think James leaves himself open here by picking Ortiz as an example. This might have had more impact if he had taken a guy that the conventional wisdom set had pegged as "not clutch" or "clutch" and demonstrated how he "may" be the opposite.

Atocep
11-30-2007, 04:09 PM
For the record, Pirates players think Eckstein is a better clutch hitter than Pujols, regardless of whatever numbers James pulls out.

From an article FJM had fun with early last season:

It was a week ago today, fewer than 24 hours after the Pirates had put down a sizzling St. Louis rally in the ninth inning, that catcher Ronny Paulino reflected upon it and offered this surprising tidbit.

"You know what the key was to that whole inning?" he said. "When David Eckstein got hit by that pitch."

Say what?

Hitting Eckstein -- not intentionally -- loaded the bases and, ultimately, forced closer Salomon Torres to pitch to Albert Pujols with a one-run lead.

"Doesn't matter," Paulino said. "Eckstein's the guy you don't want to face there."

Others agreed without hesitation, players and coaches alike.

"Can't let Eckstein beat you there," shortstop Jack Wilson said.

OK, so, just to be clear here: The Pirates are happy to duck a 5-foot-7 career .282 hitter to take on the sport's most imposing hitter?

And why, exactly, is this?

"Because," Wilson said. "Eckstein's clutch."

ISiddiqui
11-30-2007, 04:54 PM
Yeah, I think it's silly to assume that there aren't people who bring their best in high pressure situations and other people who just can't handle the stress.

I think there is a difference between what people think of as "clutch" and folks who can't handle the stress (those who "choak"). Now, as said, the definition of clutch fluctuations among every person asked, but the main problem I have is that a good number of people thinks it means that a player "elevates" his game in these situations rather than simply playing as well as he normally does. I don't think players get better in high pressure situations. They may not fold in those situations, but I don't think that's what most people refer to when they speak of "clutch".

Maple Leafs
11-30-2007, 05:27 PM
We've started an award for the major leagues' clutch hitter of the year, based on the data
Is this the same award that they started giving out this year, that was won by Alex Rodriguez?

Barkeep49
11-30-2007, 08:10 PM
I think there is a difference between what people think of as "clutch" and folks who can't handle the stress (those who "choak"). Now, as said, the definition of clutch fluctuations among every person asked, but the main problem I have is that a good number of people thinks it means that a player "elevates" his game in these situations rather than simply playing as well as he normally does. I don't think players get better in high pressure situations. They may not fold in those situations, but I don't think that's what most people refer to when they speak of "clutch".
So you're suggesting there's no such thing as clutch but there is such a thing as choking?

dawgfan
11-30-2007, 08:26 PM
While I'm a big sabermetrics fan, one thing that has bothered me about the movement is the intransigence that some in the field have on certain issues. Sabermetrics is basically a way of taking a scientific approach to analyzing baseball, and one of the key tenets of science is "may the best theory win", i.e. accepted wisdom should never become dogma - if you have a better explanation for something, show your evidence and if it is superior to current explanations, great - we've all advanced our learning.

Clutch performance in baseball has taken on a dogmatic stance by too many in the sabermetric community. These people seem to not grasp the difference between "we haven't been able to devise a set of criteria that fits a definition of 'clutch' and prove that it exists" and "nobody has proven clutch exists, so it doesn't".

If James has been able to codify a definition of "clutch" where individual players display a statistically significant difference in performance level, that's awesome. It will be very interesting to see what that criteria is and how he calculates it so that other researchers can then try to verify his results.

Desnudo
11-30-2007, 08:47 PM
I think there is a difference between what people think of as "clutch" and folks who can't handle the stress (those who "choak"). Now, as said, the definition of clutch fluctuations among every person asked, but the main problem I have is that a good number of people thinks it means that a player "elevates" his game in these situations rather than simply playing as well as he normally does. I don't think players get better in high pressure situations. They may not fold in those situations, but I don't think that's what most people refer to when they speak of "clutch".

So you don't think some players can rise to the occasion, while others are average, and others choke?

I figure baseball mirrors any pressure situation - a small % of people rise above and beyond a do-or-die situation, most behave in a typical manner, and a small % crumble.

Atocep
11-30-2007, 08:51 PM
So you don't think some players can rise to the occasion, while others are average, and others choke?

I figure baseball mirrors any pressure situation - a small % of people rise above and beyond a do-or-die situation, most behave in a typical manner, and a small % crumble.

What I fail to understand is how one can possible rise above their ability for a situation. I can understand being able to better handle the stress of the situation and not "choking". However, I don't see how someone can actually play better than their natural ability.

Desnudo
11-30-2007, 09:00 PM
What I fail to understand is how one can possible rise above their ability for a situation. I can understand being able to better handle the stress of the situation and not "choking". However, I don't see how someone can actually play better than their natural ability.

I think it's like any other high pressure event - there are people who simply get locked-in and do "rise to the occasion," beyond what someone would normally expect.

Atocep
11-30-2007, 09:12 PM
I think it's like any other high pressure event - there are people who simply get locked-in and do "rise to the occasion," beyond what someone would normally expect.

It makes no sense, though. Like I said, I can see someone not falling to the pressure, but how on earth can you actually perform at a higher level than you usually do?

Its going to take more than getting "locked in" to explain it. If the player can "rise to the occassion" then why isn't he playing like this all the time? Is he slacking? Does locking in his inner ki take so much out of him he can only muster the ability at the end of games?

Subby
11-30-2007, 09:13 PM
I think it's like any other high pressure event - there are people who simply get locked-in and do "rise to the occasion," beyond what someone would normally expect.
See this is where it breaks down for me, because these guys are still failing more often than not. So they are only rising to the occasion...occasionly?

I think the biggest issue with studying clutch is sample size. We are supposed to divine something from 50 clutch at bats in a season? If I used 50 at bats as the data set of a theory I was trying to prove it would be rejected out of hand.

Desnudo
11-30-2007, 09:22 PM
See this is where it breaks down for me, because these guys are still failing more often than not. So they are only rising to the occasion...occasionly?

I think the biggest issue with studying clutch is sample size. We are supposed to divine something from 50 clutch at bats in a season? If I used 50 at bats as the data set of a theory I was trying to prove it would be rejected out of hand.

It's a little tough to compare to real life situations because of the recurrence, but yes, I would say some players do consistently rise to the occasion, just that the outcome is somewhat variable.

If you repeated a high pressure situation in real life where someone was required to, and did, go above and beyond, there would still be differing results based on other variables. However, rising to the occasion would have a positive influence on the overall results.

ISiddiqui
11-30-2007, 09:38 PM
What I fail to understand is how one can possible rise above their ability for a situation. I can understand being able to better handle the stress of the situation and not "choking". However, I don't see how someone can actually play better than their natural ability.

That's exactly it (ie, my responses to the questions posed). I was trying to say, though I guess I didn't say it well, that I don't think people rise above their ability in pressure situations in ANY thing. Not in work or sports. I think there are simply people who don't get rattled and stay calm and those that can't handle the pressure and there is no such thing as people who get better about their ability when "the pressure is on". I think that sort of thing is just a myth.

Vince
12-01-2007, 03:36 AM
I'm not exactly sure how this can really be quantified. As many have already said, "clutch" is incredibly hard to define. Also, "clutch" situations call for all sorts of different actions --

--In the bottom of the 9th inning, with 1 out and the bases loaded, a sac fly is just as "clutch" as a grand slam.
--Similarly, with 2 outs, an RBI single is just as good as a double, triple or HR.

Also, wouldn't the pitcher be inherently at a disadvantage in any definition of a "clutch" situation? In just about any clutch situation that I can think of, the pitcher isn't going to be able to pitch around the hitter...so the hitter has to know he's going to get SOMETHING to swing at, because the pitcher has no place to put him.

SteveMax58
12-01-2007, 11:09 AM
Interesting story as I've always disagreed with James' statements about there being no such thing as clutch. I do, however, feel that it is very, very difficult to quantify clutch situations...or at least to gain a reasonable consensus on what that definition is.

My take on clutch has always been that players(like most people in all lines of work) over the course of time, perform at a level below their "optimal" level of capability. For Player_A it may be 90% of their capability...while Player_B may perform at 70% of their capability. Again...this is just a rough approximation of daily fluctuations(i.e. Player_B may perform at 95% on a given day, perhaps 45% another day).

This difference from player to player & day to day has many factors above and beyond my own capability(currently 78.2% for those curious) to explain concisely & in detail. But they do include psychological motivations, physical diet, fatigue, etc.

So to me, when you say somebody is a clutch player, or that they have the ability to "lock-in", etc...you are basically saying they have a tendency to play at or closer to their optimal level when placed in positions of high stress. The reason some players do this...IMHO(and non-educated in this field opinion), is that they have a higher motivation level when placed into these situations than other players do...or at a minimum, than they do in "normal", less stressful situations. The reason this appears to be "over their ability" in some cases...is because they do not "normally" play that close to their capability.

Just my 2 cents on the topic.

clintl
12-01-2007, 11:20 AM
What I fail to understand is how one can possible rise above their ability for a situation. I can understand being able to better handle the stress of the situation and not "choking". However, I don't see how someone can actually play better than their natural ability.

I think that's the wrong way to look at "clutch." If clutch exists, the more likely explanation is that the "clutch" players are playing up to their ability in those situations, and playing below their ability in non-clutch situations, while the reverse is true for the non-clutch players. And this makes some psychological sense. Some people react to stressful situations as opportunities and thrive on them, and don't do their best work in more relaxed situations. Other people do their best work when not in high stress situations. And this is where the assumption that clutch doesn't exist should be questioned - why should athletes be any different?

kingfc22
12-01-2007, 02:39 PM
I am waiting for him to calculate Derek Jeter's clutch numbers.:cool:

I was hoping for the same.:D

OldGiants
12-01-2007, 05:26 PM
That's exactly it (ie, my responses to the questions posed). I was trying to say, though I guess I didn't say it well, that I don't think people rise above their ability in pressure situations in ANY thing. Not in work or sports. I think there are simply people who don't get rattled and stay calm and those that can't handle the pressure and there is no such thing as people who get better about their ability when "the pressure is on". I think that sort of thing is just a myth.

I've posted precisely this in many forums.

Players simply have ability. Pressure may diminish it, but you can never be better than 100%.

As others have stated above, I agree with the notion that you can't measure clutch in a team sport. How do you know if the batter got a hit in the clutch, or if he simply hit a lame duck pitch hurled by a choking pitcher?

There was an excellent discussion of this some years ago over at OOTP during the time when Markus had clutch and choke ratings randomly added to certain players.

OTOH, I think you could measure choking in bowling or golf where it's only one player. In bowling, you can measure strike percentages in each frame, and what the score differential was when the player bowled. That would be an interesting analysis.

Golf could have similar +/- par on each hole and how important the hole was for a player, that is, the money diffential for making/missing par.

molson
12-01-2007, 06:09 PM
I don't think players get better in high pressure situations. They may not fold in those situations, but I don't think that's what most people refer to when they speak of "clutch".

AVG and OPS is higher, in the baseball universe as a whole, in "clutch" situations, isn't it? I don't know if that stat's available anywhere, but I've always assumed that's true. (Of course if that is true, pitchers are performing worse in clutch situations, unless hitters contribute more to an outcome of of an at-bat than the pitcher does) But I'll just move on....

Obviously, one can't rise above his talent level just because the "pressure's on". But I believe that professional athletes DO perform better in "clutch" situations than they do otherwise. That's simply because (IMO), nobody can possibly bring their best to the table every moment of their career, whether that be sports or otherwise. But in "important" situations, again, in sports or real life, you're much more likely to be at your "max" level then you would be at a less important time, when you might be distracted by real-life, fatigue, boredom, whatever.

Let's say to have 10 days at your job, and on the 10th day, the CEO of the company is nearby your work space. Day 10 is clutch - and it's going to be your best performance of the 10 days (even if you're not a slacker).

Buccaneer
12-01-2007, 06:20 PM
That's exactly it (ie, my responses to the questions posed). I was trying to say, though I guess I didn't say it well, that I don't think people rise above their ability in pressure situations in ANY thing. Not in work or sports. I think there are simply people who don't get rattled and stay calm and those that can't handle the pressure and there is no such thing as people who get better about their ability when "the pressure is on". I think that sort of thing is just a myth.

I fully agree with this. If one would want to define clutch, it would be the ability to not choke.