Know how Joe Torre felt-work related

[Galaril]

I no longer wonder how Joe Torre felt when he was low balled by the Yankees after yeserday I got my annual job performance review and the subsequent "Bump" in pay. Let me preface this by saying I may be out of line considering my current pay but I don't know and am wondering what others think.
The situation is that I am a Senior Information Security Risk Engineer firm out of the Denver area but conduct business all around the world. I have a bout 8 years experince in this field with a master of science degree, a CISSP cert, and a few other certs. My performance was rated as above average, scored high marks in almost all areas rated, and was only givena 3% raise. The other big thing is that for the past two years I have been a salried employee with a guartnteed base pay in the upper 80k range but I alos was paid an hourly rated and had 25,000 in overtime pay. But, I found out that my group will no longer be receiving OT pay straight salary. So even with the 3% raise I am basically going to take a 23,000 dollar pay cut. I have been told if I can get promoted next year that is a decent pay increase and I will be given strong consideration for it next December 08 but of course no guarantee. My real problem with all this is we all work on charged hour basis like a CPA and I had a 130 % utilzation with over 2300 hours of charged time and since we are only eexpected to reach 85% utilization 1650 hours I was way over. I was the highest in that area and pretty much I was compensated no more than someone who was 80% utilized. Anyways, 3% doesn't even seem to be a fair cost of living increase for a "professional whiote collar IT related" job? It certainly is the lowest I have ever gotten. Just anote my firm has over 10,000 employees, si doing pretty well financial, and overall my benefits medical/401k etc is not competitive in the industry.

I do like my colleagues and was hoping to make a long term career witht his organization but at 38 years old I kind of feel like I got low balled and franchised tagged. Now I don't want to be hasty and go looking for another job but feel like this is a real slap in the face. In fact, it feels rather insulting.
This all kind of sucks since we were hoping to purchase our first home this year but that may have to be put on the back burner. I have looked around and I must say their isn't lot of jobs paying what Imake thse in the Denver area so the cost of living pay scale thing probably is a factor.

Once again I am only posting this as a reality check to see if I should shut up and just be happy.

[RomaGoth]

How was Torre low-balled by the Yankees? They offered him more than what any other manager was/is making in MLB. He wanted a guaranteed 2nd/3rd year and the Yankees said no way, he hasn't earned that guarantee because he hadn't won a championship since 2000. I have been a Yankees fan my whole life, and I am constantly amazed at how people feel sorry for poor Joe Torre. He is a really nice guy but an average manager. He had a huge payroll and numerous all-stars to work with while managing the Yankees. Yet, he flatlined the last 7 years of his career with them by not getting it done in the playoffs. Torre was subpar prior to arriving in New York, and he will continue to be subpar in LA.

[RomaGoth]

Oh yeah, the point of your thread was about your job. Sorry.

In my experience, a 3% raise is standard pretty much everywhere, especially when the economy is not going as well as it has in the past. It sounds like you are highly qualified to do your job and probably earned your prior salary. With that being said, your company may be low-balling you because they are losing money or shares on the market. Unfortunately, this is the society that we live in, and most companies refuse to see profits lower than what they have had in the past. In order to ensure their profits are consistent, they will lay people off, cut advertising, reduce wages, or fire people. All in the name of capitalism. Either way, you may just need to adjust your standard of living a little to account for the lower pay scale. The future might be better for you however, so I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it.

Edit: I forgot to add that the head honcho at my job received a $20k/year raise + 11% increase in pay, while my immediate supervisor received nothing. Zilch. Nada. My supervisor works nearly 70 hours/week, but because of the no-raise thing has decided to retire next year. I only received 4%, and that is more than most of the other people in my office.

[Daimyo]

You should let them know what it would take to make you happy. I've generally found that if you're valuable enough to your company and work in a competitive field you can get pretty much whatever you ask for as long as you're reasonable (although sometimes you have to wait a bit).

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

The other big thing is that for the past two years I have been a salried employee with a guartnteed base pay in the upper 80k range but I alos was paid an hourly rated and had 25,000 in overtime pay. But, I found out that my group will no longer be receiving OT pay straight salary. So even with the 3% raise I am basically going to take a 23,000 dollar pay cut.

You are correct, you just received a 22% paycut. If this were me, I would have resigned on the spot, packed up my desk and never looked back.

Even if they say you're not required to work the overtime hours now that you're no longer receiving the pay....the work still needs to get done, correct? Unless they're adding people to your group or redistributing the workload among other departments, you just got screwed.

[Draft Dodger]

You should let them know what it would take to make you happy. I've generally found that if you're valuable enough to your company and work in a competitive field you can get pretty much whatever you ask for as long as you're reasonable (although sometimes you have to wait a bit).

although I don't get pay raises at my job (:mad:), this is sound advice for those who do.

[Klinglerware]

Yeah, I would start considering an exit strategy. I wouldn't resign on the spot, but I'd definitely be on the lookout for a better situation...

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

If you feel strongly about the issue, you need to stand up for yourself. My VP makes no secret that he thinks I'm the best worker in our group. When we had our review, I dropped a hint that I felt I was underpaid for my work level and that I had been browsing around at various job web sites to see what was available. He told me to make sure that I let him know if I ever seriously consider moving on as he'd like to retain me.

Two weeks later, I got my review (which was extremely high) and I received a 17% pay increase (group average was 3%). It definitely can pay big dividends to push those kinds of buttons. In your case, it sounds like you're going to take a loss even if you did receive a big raise, so moving on may be the better option. Just don't leave the current job early if the market is slow as you noted.

[TroyF]

I'd be upset. If you are essentially getting a 23k pay cut, that's huge. For them to say "It's ok, you might get a promotion next year?" That is a slap in the face.

The problem is I don't really know what you can do about it. Working in IT for a healthy company where you have a solid job is good no matter what the market is.

Good luck whatever you decide.

[albionmoonlight]

I don't know if it is psychological or what, but I find that it is much easier to look for a new job while working in the old job than to end up qutting/getting laid off and looking from the street.

Anyway, I would not be upset about the 3% raise. In an uncertain economy, that seems like a prudent move--a low end COLA increase. However, the overtime that they took away from you is HUGE, IMO.

If I were you, I would certainly either approach them and explain that you beleive you deserve more compensation and/or start putting out feelers for a new and better job.

Just my 2c

[RomaGoth]

If you feel strongly about the issue, you need to stand up for yourself. My VP makes no secret that he thinks I'm the best worker in our group. When we had our review, I dropped a hint that I felt I was underpaid for my work level and that I had been browsing around at various job web sites to see what was available. He told me to make sure that I let him know if I ever seriously consider moving on as he'd like to retain me.

Two weeks later, I got my review (which was extremely high) and I received a 17% pay increase (group average was 3%). It definitely can pay big dividends to push those kinds of buttons. In your case, it sounds like you're going to take a loss even if you did receive a big raise, so moving on may be the better option. Just don't leave the current job early if the market is slow as you noted.

I tend to agree with many of the above posts. I stated earlier that I would not lose sleep over this if I was you, but that is somewhat ridiculous to actually follow through with. You did take a huge paycut, and if nothing else, you should at least be browsing other jobs and dropping hints at your current place of employment. The job market is somewhat tough these days, especially in the IT field (very competitive as you know), but as long as you are subtle about it you may get something back from them. Just be careful, as a loss in pay is still better than no pay at all. ;)

[molson]

You defenitely have to at least look around at this point. That OT thing is going to piss you off every single time something happens in the company that you're not thrilled about. It'll always be an issue. That was a huge slap in the face.

You might be worth even more than you think to someone else, and it would be extremely satisifying to (politely) tell them you've found someone else that better appreciates your skills.

[Galaril]

Thanks to everyone for responding. One thing I will mention on the OT stuff is that my entire group not just me has been changed toa salaried rate and that was more or less what I was told when I came on board before that generally we are salaried. The work really won't change however I will be getting help in the form of a couple of junior guys that I can train and have them help me out. So, the OT was a nic eadded benefit and just meant we saved it all in the bank. So now it is back to a lower savings amount. But, I will talk to a few contacts I have in the industry to see what is out there to plan a exit if I find that I have to. I am thinking of trying to stick with this job for one more year and see if there promise of a promotion comes to fruition and if not I can move on. I am thinking I might let it be known that I felt the offer of 3% was to low, I was disappointed and that I will do what my director proposed I need to do to get promoted. But will also very nicely let them know I got awife at home and two young kids and if I don't get promoted by next year I will have look elsewhere. As far as leaving and finding a better situation I don't worry in the Northeast of finding it with all of the opportunities and high payscale we get up here, but out in Denver it is going to be alot harder finding a equivalent salary. Fortunately, IT security/IT Risk Compliance is great field to be in and there is no shortage it seems of good paying opportunities.

[Desnudo]

I have to disagree with some of the responses here.

How long have you been working at 130% capacity? That's a recipe for a burn out in the long run. Consulting companies set a target utilization and decrease returns for working that much specifically to prevent that kind of thing. Counting on overtime as part of your pay package is also risky as consultancies change compensation structures all the time. Of course you probably don't need me to tell you all that.

In either case, if you are not happy at your current job or are looking for a change, feel free to PM me.

[Galaril]

I have to disagree with some of the responses here.

How long have you been working at 130% capacity? That's a recipe for a burn out in the long run. Consulting companies set a target utilization and decrease returns for working that much specifically to prevent that kind of thing. Counting on overtime as part of your pay package is also risky as consultancies change compensation structures all the time. Of course you probably don't need me to tell you all that.

In either case, if you are not happy at your current job or are looking for a change, feel free to PM me.

Just this past year. But I am always able to meet my utilization. I can now see that the amount of charged hours isn't a huge factor now that we are trying to go to a fixed price on alot of our projects. My prject is a 10 month yearly recurring project that another organization has hired us a 3rd party to handle alot of their inforamtion security assessments/pen testing of the 3rd party vendors that they deal with. So, this is a project if I care to can be running in a year or two but now the quesion is will it be worth. I guess my view is slightly skewed having previously worked at a Big Four Public Accounting Firm in the IT Audit field where they had big bonus big raises annually.

[Desnudo]

Just this past year. But I am always able to meet my utilization. I can now see that the amount of charged hours isn't a huge factor now that we are trying to go to a fixed price on alot of our projects. My prject is a 10 month yearly recurring project that another organization has hired us a 3rd party to handle alot of their inforamtion security assessments/pen testing of the 3rd party vendors that they deal with. So, this is a project if I care to can be running in a year or two but now the quesion is will it be worth. I guess my view is slightly skewed having previously worked at a Big Four Public Accounting Firm in the IT Audit field where they had big bonus big raises annually.

Is contracting an option? I don't know what the environment is like, or if you have a non-compete clause, but if salary is most important to you, you could always go solo.

[Alan T]

I am a network engineer responsible for network security in a 40,000 person+ company so work often with people in your field. I feel pretty confident in saying that the market for your specialty is fairly decent demand. It is hard for me to comment about your salary as what you listed would be low for this part of the country, but I have no knowledge of Denver's cost of living and how that fits in there.

I guess the two issues I would have is, after working 130% of time for about 10 years in this field, it finally caught up to me about 4-5 years ago.. it just is not something that you want to depend on for a large (15%?) part of your yearly income. I would most definitly try to work out something either with your current employer where your pay compensation can be closer to your liking while having it based on a normal 100% work load instead of so much extra. My experience it is simply best to just be open about your expectations with your employer. They will either then respond openly back with their explanation of why they can't meet your request, or blow you off completely, or perhaps they can meet you part way. Either way, you can at least have a good feel if you need to look elsewhere or not.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I would definitely agree with the comments about major burnout with that level of overtime. I was working 15-20% overtime in a different job (no OT pay) and was miserable. I moved to a much more flexible job with no OT and I'm much happier with the situation.

At some level, you should count yourself as blessed that you got OT pay for that period. Most people work that much OT and never get any reimbursement for it.

[Huckleberry]

I no longer wonder how Joe Torre felt when he was low balled by the Yankees after yeserday I got my annual job performance review and the subsequent "Bump" in pay.

So you're saying that you were vastly overpaid considering your actual contribution to your company's success to begin with?

[RomaGoth]

So you're saying that you were vastly overpaid considering your actual contribution to your company's success to begin with?

A fair question. Well, Mr. Torre: do you have a response to this question? Hmm? :rolleyes:

[Anthony]

my motto is the squeaky wheel doesn't always get the oil. sometimes it's easier to replace the squeaky wheel. that is, i tend to not voice complaints too much out of fear of identifying myself as a red flag or someone likely to be on the way out. i've had two increases in the past 13 months, 3% here, 4% there. idenditified myself as one of the top echelon of performers here with the numbers to prove it. mutual fund industry is what i'm in. unfortunately living in New York, particularly the suburbs of Long Island, my salary isn't cutting it. now, if there was something here that indicated this company was in a position to just dole out the kind of money i need to stay here, i would consider it. high turnover rate here, and there's a constant flow of new hires, gives me the impression that we're very replaceable and management prefers it that way so they can keep salaries low. i feel it's time for me to move on. sucks cuz i only work 15 minutes away from home, but that in an of itself doesn't pay the mortgage. i'll put it out there early next year that i need a significant increase in salary, but to be honest by the time i bring that up i'll have already been knee-deep in my job hunt. i'd be doing it more as a "speak now or forver hold your peace".

[Arctus]

There are two separate issues.

Regarding the 3% raise; you are a highly compensated employee working for a consulting engineering firm. At this point in your career you are expected to perform at high level and a 3 to 4% raise is your reward for doing so. You will probably not get a merit raise much above 4% for the rest of your career (unless it is tied in with a formal promotion, or you job shop and your company asks you to consider a match to stay).

Regarding your OT situation, I don't think that you should view the loss of overtime as a pay cut. You were never entitled to those hours to begin with. Its also unreasonable to assume that you would work that much OT over the long term.

I can now see that the amount of charged hours isn't a huge factor now that we are trying to go to a fixed price on alot of our projects.

This seems like it may end up being a big problem for you. Once your company makes the transition from billable hours to firm fixed price its going to shift how your company views staff utilization. The focus will not be to keep everyone billable, it will be to complete projects with the minimum amount of staff possible. The combination of your reclassification as a strictly salaried employee combined with a new way of cost control that will value doing more with less will quite possibly place additional demands on you.

If you are already utilized at 130%, I think you may need to be prepared for that number to go upward.

[Alan T]

my motto is the squeaky wheel doesn't always get the oil. sometimes it's easier to replace the squeaky wheel. that is, i tend to not voice complaints too much out of fear of identifying myself as a red flag or someone likely to be on the way out. i've had two increases in the past 13 months, 3% here, 4% there. idenditified myself as one of the top echelon of performers here with the numbers to prove it. mutual fund industry is what i'm in. unfortunately living in New York, particularly the suburbs of Long Island, my salary isn't cutting it. now, if there was something here that indicated this company was in a position to just dole out the kind of money i need to stay here, i would consider it. high turnover rate here, and there's a constant flow of new hires, gives me the impression that we're very replaceable and management prefers it that way so they can keep salaries low. i feel it's time for me to move on. sucks cuz i only work 15 minutes away from home, but that in an of itself doesn't pay the mortgage. i'll put it out there early next year that i need a significant increase in salary, but to be honest by the time i bring that up i'll have already been knee-deep in my job hunt. i'd be doing it more as a "speak now or forver hold your peace".


When approaching employers about being unhappy with the given situation, it is usually a good idea to have other things in the works or a fall back plan. I think people would be suprised how often an employer will come back to a valuable employee and give them some incentive to stay. The key is that the employee needs to be worth it to the company, needs to be pretty upfront and honest, and needs to be reasonable with what they are asking for. It is amazing to me how many people leave a company they enjoy working for without even trying to approach management to see if they can meet half way.

[Mustang]

You only need to work 1650 hours but, work 2300. So, are 650 hours of your life back worth $23K?

I know I wouldn't want to trade that.

Now, if they drop the overtime pay and then you still work 2300 then I'd consider moving along.

[Galaril]

Is contracting an option? I don't know what the environment is like, or if you have a non-compete clause, but if salary is most important to you, you could always go solo.


I would and could do more contract work depending on the nature of it but as far as going complete contract and solo not to interested in that. The main reason is even though money is important as it is to anyone with a wife and two kids medical/dental is pretty important. If we ever went toa good universal health system in htis country i would probably quit and start doing contract work exclusively. One thing is I work almost exclusively from home so that is why a short contract or project work is a possibility.

[Galaril]

You only need to work 1650 hours but, work 2300. So, are 650 hours of your life back worth $23K?

I know I wouldn't want to trade that.

Now, if they drop the overtime pay and then you still work 2300 then I'd consider moving along.

To be honest I work from home remotely and other a business trip about once amonth for a day or so working 50 hours a week is not hard to do. I easily save 10 hours just on the fact I don't have to commute to work so that is one good thing about my current work. I guess if or when that cahnges I would have a major reason to move on. But, your point on the 650 hours being worth, at the time I was being paid for it yes it was. But , now that I am not I have no incentive to bsut my ass when for 700 hours of less work I get the same crappy 3%.

[Desnudo]

When approaching employers about being unhappy with the given situation, it is usually a good idea to have other things in the works or a fall back plan. I think people would be suprised how often an employer will come back to a valuable employee and give them some incentive to stay. The key is that the employee needs to be worth it to the company, needs to be pretty upfront and honest, and needs to be reasonable with what they are asking for. It is amazing to me how many people leave a company they enjoy working for without even trying to approach management to see if they can meet half way.

I agree. It depends on your company culture, but it never hurts to ask. May not be an immediate raise, but something like an agreement to give you a work opportunity to promote six months earlier, or similar incentive, that gives you a larger payout down the road.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I agree. It depends on your company culture, but it never hurts to ask. May not be an immediate raise, but something like an agreement to give you a work opportunity to promote six months earlier, or similar incentive, that gives you a larger payout down the road.

Having worked with a few different large companies, I don't think this is the best way to approach things. Promises for stuff down the road often get lost in the budgetary shuffle when push comes to shove. Either ask for the income now, set up a plan of attack for next year's review, or don't do anything.

[Desnudo]

Having worked with a few different large companies, I don't think this is the best way to approach things. Promises for stuff down the road often get lost in the budgetary shuffle when push comes to shove. Either ask for the income now, set up a plan of attack for next year's review, or don't do anything.

He's in consulting so it's different than a standard 9-5 target setting. As long as you get a commitment in writing, it's a good approach.

[Galaril]

He's in consulting so it's different than a standard 9-5 target setting. As long as you get a commitment in writing, it's a good approach.

Yeah I agree if they can put something in writing I may stick it out.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

He's in consulting so it's different than a standard 9-5 target setting. As long as you get a commitment in writing, it's a good approach.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

[Marc Vaughan]

I personally wouldn't take something like that lying down - I wouldn't make a rash decision over it either though.

Put your CV out, find a better job and then leave - explain why and hopefully they'll learn and your leaving will mean they'll treat future staff better (in general if its a large company it won't - but hey you never know ;) ).

[RomaGoth]

Yeah I agree if they can put something in writing I may stick it out.

The key is to get it in writing with a signature from someone with authority. We have all probably been in the situation where someone promised something but later pulled a Petrino/Saban, right? Hopefully the person that did the promising is still around when it comes due....:)