People that don't vote - STFU

[DaddyTorgo]

If you're going to sit around and say "I'm not going to vote" than in my mind you need to STFU and sit down about all things even tangentially related to voting.

If you won't exercise your constitutional-right to help guide the direction that this country (or your state or your city or whatever) will take, then in my mind you have absolutely no platform to stand on.

this isn't directed at any one person per se, more something that i've heard from several people, here on the board and off the board.

but really...maybe it's just the way i was raised or whatever, but if you're not going to take the time to vote, and vote intelligently, than i don't want to hear you bitching about the economy, or foreign policy, or illegal immigrants, or taxes, or anything like that.

if you don't want to be a functioning, contributing member of society then you lose any ground that you might have on to critique that society.

[Desnudo]

So you vote in every election - local, state, national?

[rkmsuf]

So you vote in every election - local, state, national?

He even votes when there are no elections just for practice.

[spleen1015]

But my presidential vote doesn't matter. Indiana will go Republican regardless of how I vote.

[oliegirl]

I feel the same way. I figure if you don't take the opportunity to cast your vote, your voice on how the country should be run for the next 4 years, then you don't have much right to sit and bitch about things when you don't like how the country is being run.

If you don't want to vote, that is fine, there are a lot of people who feel that way. I don't think any less of those who don't, just don't feel they have a leg to stand on in a political discussion...

[path12]

Personally I do vote in every election, because I feel that when it comes down to it this country asks two things of you: vote and pay your taxes.

However, if someone chooses not to I don't think it's up to me to lecture or judge them. Although I do agree that it makes any arguments that person might make about government pretty hollow.

[DaddyTorgo]

So you vote in every election - local, state, national?

yep. without a doubt. i was out of the country in 04 but we voted absentee before we left...i've voted in every election since i was 18.

[MalcPow]

That's cool, except you can probably contribute more to society by exercising your right to speech and advocating for the kinds of governance that appeal to you than by casting ballots for candidates whose policies are anathema to your ideals.

[rkmsuf]

Can we pull a "you never played the game" and get Kornheiser off MNF?

[DaddyTorgo]

Personally I do vote in every election, because I feel that when it comes down to it this country asks two things of you: vote and pay your taxes.

However, if someone chooses not to I don't think it's up to me to lecture or judge them. Although I do agree that it makes any arguments that person might make about government pretty hollow.


not lecturing. just agreeing with you and olie that it makes their arguments hollow / doesn't give them a leg to stand on.

was just...pent-up a bit i guess.

[Lathum]

That's bullshit.

I pay my taxes so I have a right to have an opinion how the money I earn gets spent.

[path12]

That's bullshit.

I pay my taxes so I have a right to have an opinion how the money I earn gets spent.

You have the right to an opinion, but if you don't even have the energy to get up off your ass and make a fairly informed vote, then you prove that your opinion really isn't that important to you or anyone else.

[Jas_lov]

I disagree. People should be able to do what they want. If they don't want to vote that's their business.

[Lathum]

Right, but I am interpreting the original post to mean I have no right to any opinion and thats BS.

It's my money thats getting spent wheather or not I vote.

[rkmsuf]

I disagree. People should be able to do what they want. If they don't want to vote that's their business.

It's a free country!

[billethius]

But my presidential vote doesn't matter. Indiana will go Republican regardless of how I vote.

" I'm in Washington. I could waste a few hours and go vote for the next President, but the state is voting Democrat anyways.

For that matter, unless you live in the state that just passed the popular vote thing (don't remember what state it was) or you're a member of the electoral college, your vote for president matters very little.

[spleen1015]

BUT MY VOTE DOESN'T MATTER!

[MalcPow]

You have the right to an opinion, but if you don't even have the energy to get up off your ass and make a fairly informed vote, then you prove that your opinion really isn't that important to you or anyone else.

An informed opinion could lead you to decline the privilege of further legitimizing the election of a poor candidate...

[oliegirl]

But my presidential vote doesn't matter. Indiana will go Republican regardless of how I vote.

But what if every person who was going to vote Democratic said that? Don't you think that it could have an impact then?

You have one voice in this country. One opportunity to make yourself heard, your vote. If you don't cast your vote, that's it.

In 1996, I voted for Dole. Not because I thought he was going to win, or even because I thought he was the better candidate...I didn't think there was a good candidate this year. I voted Dole because I knew Clinton was going to win, but I didn't want him winning with my vote. I figured that for the next 4 years, it gave me the right to gripe and complain about Clinton and the ridiculousness he put the country through. I'm sure there are people who would disagree with my reasons for voting, but at least I voted. I cast my ballot and said "this is who I want to be president" or rather "this is who I don't want to be president".

[Lathum]

I predict this thread will end badly

[Synovia]

You have the right to an opinion, but if you don't even have the energy to get up off your ass and make a fairly informed vote, then you prove that your opinion really isn't that important to you or anyone else.

Fairly informed vote? 90% of voters aren't fairly informed.

[spleen1015]

" I'm in Washington. I could waste a few hours and go vote for the next President, but the state is voting Democrat anyways.

For that matter, unless you live in the state that just passed the popular vote thing (don't remember what state it was) or you're a member of the electoral college, your vote for president matters very little.

Yes and no. There are states that swing between parties every election. Indiana hasn't gone Demoncrat since like 1234, so I know my state is voting Republican. One more Republican vote makes no difference.

Now, I do believe my vote for governor matters since it is a popular vote.

[markprior22]

It's a free country!


WOO HOO!!!!!! +1

[rkmsuf]

I predict this thread will end badly

let's vote on it!

[spleen1015]

But what if every person who was going to vote Democratic said that? Don't you think that it could have an impact then?

The impact would be a better USA!

[MikeVic]

let's vote on it!

VOTE OR DIE!!!!!!

[bhlloy]

I'm not sure DT was simply referring to the presidential elections. I find it even more strange that many people will vote for president, but they can't get turnout greater than 20% for local city and county elections. In the grand scheme of things, local elections have a much bigger effect on your everyday life.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Well, I believe DaddyTorgo when he says that his post wasn't directed at one person in particular, but I'm the first person who said something here today about not voting, so I feel that I should respond.

I don't claim to have an informed opinion about politics, so I don't feel that I should vote. Besides, I think that my cousin Tanya would run things pretty damn well, but she's no politician, so nobody else will vote for her. I only want to vote for my cousin Tanya. If she is absolutely 100% not going to get the job, I'm not going to go vote for somebody else just because I can. When there's a choice out there that is truly appealing to me, I'll vote. In the meantime, I'm not voting because I don't care. Am I really the kind of person that you want helping to make those decisions that are obviously important to you?

[Lathum]

I value Pumpy's opinion.

I'll vote for Tanya.

[rkmsuf]

Well, I believe DaddyTorgo when he says that his post wasn't directed at one person in particular, but I'm the first person who said something here today about not voting, so I feel that I should respond.

I don't claim to have an informed opinion about politics, so I don't feel that I should vote. Besides, I think that my cousin Tanya would run things pretty damn well, but she's no politician, so nobody else will vote for her. I only want to vote for my cousin Tanya. If she is absolutely 100% not going to get the job, I'm not going to go vote for somebody else just because I can. When there's a choice out there that is truly appealing to me, I'll vote. In the meantime, I'm not voting because I don't care. Am I really the kind of person that you want helping to make those decisions that are obviously important to you?

you'll care when the country decides to turn on all the bounty hunters

[oliegirl]

It's a free country!

Yes, it is...because people in this country felt the right to vote, among other things, was worth fighting for, and in many many cases, worth dying for.

[Jas_lov]

It's a free country!

I agree. You won't see me preaching on my moral throne about people not voting. If they don't want to vote, don't vote! It's none of my business. It's their personal decision.

[path12]

An informed opinion could lead you to decline the privilege of further legitimizing the election of a poor candidate...

I wrote in Hunter Thompson in 1980 and 84, and Nader in 1988 and 1992. I don't know if that was the result of an informed opinion or drugs.

[spleen1015]

Yes, it is...because people in this country felt the right to vote, among other things, was worth fighting for, and in many many cases, worth dying for.

I don't think this road needs to be traveled, hmm?

[oliegirl]

Well, I believe DaddyTorgo when he says that his post wasn't directed at one person in particular, but I'm the first person who said something here today about not voting, so I feel that I should respond.

I don't claim to have an informed opinion about politics, so I don't feel that I should vote. Besides, I think that my cousin Tanya would run things pretty damn well, but she's no politician, so nobody else will vote for her. I only want to vote for my cousin Tanya. If she is absolutely 100% not going to get the job, I'm not going to go vote for somebody else just because I can. When there's a choice out there that is truly appealing to me, I'll vote. In the meantime, I'm not voting because I don't care. Am I really the kind of person that you want helping to make those decisions that are obviously important to you?


I don't remember you being one to participate in political threads that much, so I have no problem with this. But I do have a problem with people who don't vote and then spend the next 4 years whining. Like I said before, if everyone who said their vote didn't count, actually got out there and voted, then those votes would absolutely count and absolutely could change the outcome.

[path12]

Fairly informed vote? 90% of voters aren't fairly informed.

I'm not quite that pessimistic, but will agree that many vote for who they are told to vote for by family, friends or other sources. That's a shame, but I still give them some credit for going out and actually voting.

[molson]

That's bullshit.

I pay my taxes so I have a right to have an opinion how the money I earn gets spent.

I agree. We don't have compulsory voting in the US. I can choose all candidates suck and not bother, or that working is more important than casting a vote an election who's outcome isn't in doubt, or an election I don't care about.

What DT stated is a popular sentiment, but I just don't see the correlation. Voting is a right, it doesn't spurn additional rights (to have an opinion), and choosing not the exercise that right doesn't quash other rights you have as an American.

None of my votes have ever changed anything or impacted any elections, except in a symbolic way. That's why I'm also annoyed when people say, "Well, I want to vote for Ron Paul, but he won't win, so that will be a wasted vote". I hate to break it to you, but your vote isn't going to be the deciding factor either way, so you may as well vote what you believe or don't bother.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I don't remember you being one to participate in political threads that much, so I have no problem with this. But I do have a problem with people who don't vote and then spend the next 4 years whining. Like I said before, if everyone who said their vote didn't count, actually got out there and voted, then those votes would absolutely count and absolutely could change the outcome.
Indeed, I don't participate in political discussions, and that's because I don't know anything about it. I don't vote for the NBA All-Star Game either because I don't follow the NBA until the playoffs.

I will say this, though. If I think that some politician or that politician's people are doing something so badly that it's adversely affecting my life, I'm damn sure going to think that my cousin Tanya should be doing that job instead.

[MalcPow]

I don't remember you being one to participate in political threads that much, so I have no problem with this. But I do have a problem with people who don't vote and then spend the next 4 years whining. Like I said before, if everyone who said their vote didn't count, actually got out there and voted, then those votes would absolutely count and absolutely could change the outcome.

I think people that don't vote would argue it might change the outcome of the election, but that likely won't change the outcome of the policies of the government that upset them. If no candidate represents someone's wishes, then changing the outcome of an election doesn't really matter to them.

[Klinglerware]

Yes, it is...because people in this country felt the right to vote, among other things, was worth fighting for, and in many many cases, worth dying for.

Though, considering that voting rights for some people were restricted as late as the 1960s, one can argue that the need for a "right to vote" by the population was not a primary determinant for the founding of the country, nor could it be considered a primary determinant (until 35 years ago) of one's choice to fight for the country.

[oliegirl]

I don't think this road needs to be traveled, hmm?

I do. This fight is still going on in a lot of countries around the world, and I think the people who have the attitude of "it's a free country but I'm not going to exercise my right to vote" are wrong. It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it, just like you are entitled to the opinion to think I'm wrong.

There is a movie, The American President...Michael Douglas is in it. Very cheezy movie, but good. Toward the end he gives a speech and says something about how democracy is hard, you have to work at it every day, you have to fight for it. I think Americans have become lazy...as a general society we want to sit around and just let everything happen, but when we don't like how things are going we don't really do much to change it. The system isn't perfect, I'm not saying it is. But the reality is that it's what it is and we need to make the best of it. And in my opinion, that would be for every legal American Citizen over the age of 18 to vote in every election. It's something I believe strongly in. I'm not someone who knows everything about politics, but I consider myself to be relatively well informed. I cast my vote based on what I know, and what I value as important issues. If someone casts a vote and they can say "I voted for <candidate> because of <candidate's stand on a particular issue>, then I consider it an informed vote.

[Desnudo]

I value Pumpy's opinion.

I'll vote for Tanya.

It's time to rock the vote

[Lathum]

I do. This fight is still going on in a lot of countries around the world

why should I give a rats ass about what is going on in countries around the world?

I would much rather have my tax dollars spend on education or fixing the health care system then on some manhunt for WMD's that don't even exist.

[RomaGoth]

This is a very compelling thread to say the least. As I have quite a few opinions on politics in our country (and the world for that matter), I will lay out a little bit of them here.

I have not voted since 2000, and I voted 3rd party. I will always lean towards the conservative spectrum in politics because I feel that we are NOT all equal. Look at sports, finances, academics, the list goes on and on. I believe we are all entitled to the same opportunities, but we are not all going to achieve the same success. Therefore, why should we all be given the same rewards? This may all seem off base, but I am just spouting off right now so forgive me. I am really sick of hearing people that say the government owes them something, other people owe them something, or blah blah blah. I work my ass off every day to provide for my family. I attend college now because I screwed off for many years prior to having children. Those were my decisions. Now I am working hard to improve my life and my family's life. I do not believe the government owes me anything. With all this being said, I don't believe because I have the right to vote and I don't vote, that I am not allowed to "whine" about the state of my country. I am just as much a citizen as the next guy who DOES vote. If I don't like any of the candidates, why should I vote for them? Example: I don't like anything George Bush has done in the last 8 years. I also hated the entire time that Bill Clinton was in office. So, let's just say for argument's sake that these 2 are running for office right now, and they are the final candidates. I don't like either one. Why should I feel compelled to vote for either of them if I don't agree with their policies? Choosing the lesser of 2 evils is not a good option for me. I choose the third option of not voting for either of them. In fact, in 2000 I voted 3rd party. Obviously it was a wasted vote, but I agreed with more of that doctrine than either of the other two.

All I am really saying is that we should not judge people for not voting. Not agreeing with or liking any of the candidates does not automatically remove your right from having an opinion. Hillary Clinton or Rudy Giuliani?

Neither thanks. See you in 4 more years. :p

[Passacaglia]

Man, the poll is taking forever to load.

(Sorry I didn't STFU, even though I didn't vote -- what are we voting on, anyway?)

[larrymcg421]

But my presidential vote doesn't matter. Indiana will go Republican regardless of how I vote.

Actually, the GOP could be in trouble in Indiana this time around. I think it will be a toss up in 2008. If the Dems nominate Bayh as VP, then they win it in a landslide.

[RomaGoth]

I think Americans have become lazy...as a general society we want to sit around and just let everything happen, but when we don't like how things are going we don't really do much to change it. The system isn't perfect, I'm not saying it is. But the reality is that it's what it is and we need to make the best of it.

I agree with this statement. However, I also feel that many of us have become completely disenchanted with our politicians in general. We are so sick of the lies and cheating that we are either immune to it now or just don't care anymore. I am not one of those people, but I know of others that feel that way. What we need to do as responsible citizens is take our country back from the crooked politicians. We need to vote the people out of office that are corrupting and abusing the system.

This is our country, and the people we are voting for work for us. So yes, you are correct to some extent that we have become lazy. We have also become too busy to pay attention to all that is going on right in front of us, like the port deal last year for example.

We shouldn't vote just for the sake of voting. We should vote because we believe in our country.

[sabotai]

but really...maybe it's just the way i was raised or whatever, but if you're not going to take the time to vote, and vote intelligently, than i don't want to hear you bitching about the economy, or foreign policy, or illegal immigrants, or taxes, or anything like that.

Given who we usually end up with for canidates for any particular political postition, the directive to "vote intelligently" is pretty much impossible.

[Lathum]

I don't think we have gotten lazy, I just think we are dissenchanted.

Politicians aren't the "heros" they used to be in this country, there will never be another JFK.

[oliegirl]

I don't think we have gotten lazy, I just think we are dissenchanted.

Politicians aren't the "heros" they used to be in this country, there will never be another JFK.

Are you being serious or sarcastic with the JFK comment?

[rkmsuf]

Are you being serious or sarcastic with the JFK comment?

I would guess serious.

Vote: oliegirl

[MikeVic]

Are we playing werewolf?

VOTE oliegirl

[CU Tiger]

Indiana hasn't gone Demoncrat since like 1234, so I know my state is voting Republican.


Damn...were there even Democrats in 1234?



I have not voted since 2000, and I voted for Bush. [...] In fact, in 2000 I voted 3rd party. Obviously it was a wasted vote, but I agreed with more of that doctrine than either of the other two.


At least be honest.
or did you vote twice in 2000?
:confused:

[oliegirl]

It's just that while yes, JFK was a great president, and he was a war hero, he certainly wasn't perfect and had mob ties that have been proven over and over again...

And why am I getting voted out???? I'm not a wolf!!!!

[RomaGoth]

Damn...were there even Democrats in 1234?




At least be honest.
or did you vote twice in 2000?
:confused:

Oops. Nice call. I did vote 3rd party, not sure why I put that. I will *edit* it. :)

[RomaGoth]

Reagan and Eisenhower are 2 of the greatest presidents we have had in the last 60 years. Personally, I feel that we don't really appreciate them until after the fact. Our current president makes Clinton look good, and my opinion of Clinton is not good, to say the least. Just my opinions, so please don't vote me??? :eek:

[Noop]

I think everyone should vote. They should make a national holiday on election day so no one has any excuses.

[CU Tiger]

I think W is the besteest president ever...no really I do.

Ok Im not that crazy..
But I dont think he is the worst, and I do think he has undergone stresses during his Presidency that no other in the history has.

[markprior22]

I have voted in the past but don't think I will this year. It is not a lack of energy or caring but no nominated candidate will come close to matching my political views. I don't believe in the "lesser of two evils" mentality either. Also, just because our political system won't produce a candidate that I can back doesn't take away my right to voice my opinion or promote certain views.

[rkmsuf]

I think W is the besteest president ever...no really I do.

Ok Im not that crazy..
But I dont think he is the worst, and I do think he has undergone stresses during his Presidency that no other in the history has.


Yeah that WWII thingy was nothing really.

[CU Tiger]

Yeah that WWII thingy was nothing really.

Well when we horded asian americans into prisons and and let Pearl Harbor get attacked there wasnt 24 hour coverage with huge headlines.

[rkmsuf]

Well when we horded asian americans into prisons and and let Pearl Harbor get atttacked theere wasnt 24 hour coverage with huge headlines.

therefore no stress!

Vote: media

[Pumpy Tudors]

I think everyone should vote. They should make a national holiday on election day so no one has any excuses.
You think everyone should vote? Everyone? The sillies who will write in "Hairy Ass McGee"? Me who'd rather vote for my cousin Tanya? The guy who lives up the street from me who only votes for people who have Japanese names? The woman on the other side of the street whose only obvious care in the world is who she gets to bum her next cigarette off of? The 18-year-old in my wife's computer science class whose biggest connection to democracy was when he wore a flag-patterned robe to school and flashed everyone in the quad as a goof?

Do you really want these people to decide who's "in charge" in our country?

[rkmsuf]

Let's simplify things and just let Pumpy pick.

[Dr. Sak]

Let's simplify things and just let Pumpy pick.

Kathy Griffin?

[Lathum]

Are you being serious or sarcastic with the JFK comment?

I'm 100% serious.

Do you really ever think there will be another "American hero" president?

[Lathum]

I think everyone should vote. They should make a national holiday on election day so no one has any excuses.

except for cops, firemen, people who work in restaurants, movie theaters, airports, gas stations, supermarkets...

[vtbub]

You think everyone should vote? Everyone? The sillies who will write in "Hairy Ass McGee"? Me who'd rather vote for my cousin Tanya? The guy who lives up the street from me who only votes for people who have Japanese names? The woman on the other side of the street whose only obvious care in the world is who she gets to bum her next cigarette off of? The 18-year-old in my wife's computer science class whose biggest connection to democracy was when he wore a flag-patterned robe to school and flashed everyone in the quad as a goof?

Do you really want these people to decide who's "in charge" in our country?



Yes.

In all seriousness, having Mickey Mouse get 5% of the vote is ok. As a country, we can only get better if ALL people take part in it, whether it is voting for Clinton or your cousin Tanya.

(pics plz of your cousin)

[ISiddiqui]

It's just that while yes, JFK was a great president, and he was a war hero, he certainly wasn't perfect and had mob ties that have been proven over and over again...

Aside from JFK being a great President (he wasn't even a good one), I agree ;).

[RomaGoth]

I have voted in the past but don't think I will this year. It is not a lack of energy or caring but no nominated candidate will come close to matching my political views. I don't believe in the "lesser of two evils" mentality either. Also, just because our political system won't produce a candidate that I can back doesn't take away my right to voice my opinion or promote certain views.

Exactly what I have been saying.

[oliegirl]

I'm 100% serious.

Do you really ever think there will be another "American hero" president?

Yes, I do. Powell considered running, he certainly would have been an American Hero president. Same with Schwartzkopf had he run. At some point, there will be. And with the circumstances they are now, namely the US being involved in a war, I think it will happen sooner rather than later. Not saying it will be in the next 10 - 15 years, but I definitely think it will happen.

[Synovia]

Yes.

In all seriousness, having Mickey Mouse get 5% of the vote is ok.


No, its not. Elections are being won on 1-5% margins. People who have no idea what the fuck the candidates are about are deciding who is president. For every person that wrote in "Mickey Mouse" there were a hundred that said "ah, what the fuck, I'll vote for Gore/Bush" Thats scary.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Yes.

In all seriousness, having Mickey Mouse get 5% of the vote is ok. As a country, we can only get better if ALL people take part in it, whether it is voting for Clinton or your cousin Tanya.

(pics plz of your cousin)
And what about Mickey Mouse getting 55% of the vote?

Anyway, more seriously, if I personally went to vote, I'd flip a coin or roll a die to decide, because I don't know anything about any of the people I'd be voting for. Now, if I ended up voting for the eventual winner and he ended up screwing up my city/state/country, I'd feel pretty rotten about it. To me, it just doesn't make sense to vote just because I can. The whole process seems like a complete and utter sham if I don't know what I'm really voting for or against.

On a much smaller scale, do I have any business voting for the starters in the NBA All-Star Game? Hell, I've only heard of maybe 50% of the players in the league anymore, and some of those may be having terrible seasons or are injured and haven't played. Who am I to decide who's most deserving? Just because we're really talking about government here doesn't mean that it's more important for me to vote. If I'm just as uninformed about politicians as I am about the NBA, shouldn't that make it more important that I don't vote?

Obviously, some people would say no to that question. Ultimately, if I go vote for my cousin Tanya for everything, I'm not really doing any real good for the country or the democratic process. I'm just offering a gesture that really ends up being totally pointless. Tanya won't win. Why exactly would I be voting?

[Subby]

Yes, it is...because people in this country felt the right to vote, among other things, was worth fighting for, and in many many cases, worth dying for.
Yes - the right. Not the compulsion.

There's a big difference.

[Lathum]

Yes, I do. Powell considered running, he certainly would have been an American Hero president. Same with Schwartzkopf had he run. At some point, there will be. And with the circumstances they are now, namely the US being involved in a war, I think it will happen sooner rather than later. Not saying it will be in the next 10 - 15 years, but I definitely think it will happen.

Well maybe I am cynical but I think the days of people looking at a president as a hero and a great american are long gone.

Now a days kids look up to athelets, musicians, etc...

I think peoples perception of politicians are negative in general.

Like I said, I may be wrong but I just don't ever see people dropping everything to watch the State of the Union address.

[Young Drachma]

yep. without a doubt. i was out of the country in 04 but we voted absentee before we left...i've voted in every election since i was 18.

Me too. Even when I live in states where my vote "doesn't count."

[Abe Sargent]

I think W is the besteest president ever...no really I do.

Ok Im not that crazy..
But I dont think he is the worst, and I do think he has undergone stresses during his Presidency that no other in the history has.

Lincoln didn;t hold a candle to GWB!

[johnnyshaka]

I have the right to own a gun. I chose not to own one. Am I not allowed to express my opinions about gun control because I haven't excercised my right to own a gun?

[Pumpy Tudors]

I have the right to ride a bicycle in a lawful manner on city streets, but I choose to use a car. Am I allowed to be upset if a bicyclist runs into my car and dents a fender??

[Abe Sargent]

I have the right to own a gun. I chose not to own one. Am I not allowed to express my opinions about gun control because I haven't excercised my right to own a gun?

Heh. Don't confuse them with logical arguments and analogies. Populism rules this land! Vote or die!

[Pumpy Tudors]

Um, just to clarify, I've been serious for this whole thread, but the whole bicycle thing was a joke, and I'm not trying to make a serious argument based on that.

[MikeVic]

I have the right to ride a bicycle in a lawful manner on city streets, but I choose to use a car. Am I allowed to be upset if a bicyclist runs into my car and dents a fender??

I don't like bicyclists on the roads. They should have their own lanes.

[miked]

Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense! Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing.

[vtbub]

And what about Mickey Mouse getting 55% of the vote?

Anyway, more seriously, if I personally went to vote, I'd flip a coin or roll a die to decide, because I don't know anything about any of the people I'd be voting for. Now, if I ended up voting for the eventual winner and he ended up screwing up my city/state/country, I'd feel pretty rotten about it. To me, it just doesn't make sense to vote just because I can. The whole process seems like a complete and utter sham if I don't know what I'm really voting for or against.

On a much smaller scale, do I have any business voting for the starters in the NBA All-Star Game? Hell, I've only heard of maybe 50% of the players in the league anymore, and some of those may be having terrible seasons or are injured and haven't played. Who am I to decide who's most deserving? Just because we're really talking about government here doesn't mean that it's more important for me to vote. If I'm just as uninformed about politicians as I am about the NBA, shouldn't that make it more important that I don't vote?

Obviously, some people would say no to that question. Ultimately, if I go vote for my cousin Tanya for everything, I'm not really doing any real good for the country or the democratic process. I'm just offering a gesture that really ends up being totally pointless. Tanya won't win. Why exactly would I be voting?

If a cartoon character wins an election, then we are in some serious trouble. :)

Whether you think you know anything about anyone running for anything, you do know whether you are happy about how you are doing and the things that effect you in your neighborhood, or if you like the education your kids get, etc. You do at least have the working knowledge of what you like and don't like, and if you can at least put a local or national name to something you feel strongly about, then you have made an informed vote.

If you know jack squat about 99% of a balot, but feel that your dog catcher that you vote for is out of line for literally screwing the pooch, then your vote matters, even if you leave everything blank on your ballot besides that.

I live in a yuppie faux-liberal state. I know that whoever the Democrats put up will get 58-62% of the vote here. Our governor faces no real competitor, our congressman will run virtually unopposed. Yet, there will be something, like a tax request or some stupid project that will take money out of repairing sidewalks and roads and make sure that we plant palm trees in our green space, or something equally idotic that makes my vote matter either by voting against it, or if they actually would do something that I agree with, vote for it. Like keeping the damn bikes off sidewalks.

If you feel sillyabout writing in a name, then leave it blabk.

[Pumpy Tudors]

If you feel sillyabout writing in a name, then leave it blabk.
I understand your points, even though I deleted them from your quote. I just think I can sum up my thoughts based only on your last sentence.

I feel silly about writing in any name. That's why I effectively leave the whole thing blank.

[RomaGoth]

Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense! Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing.

Chewie lives on Endor and surrounds himself with little Ewoks because he then feels the big man of the land. This is the same principal that was followed by Bill Parcells when he took the Dolphins job.

[Izulde]

The only time I haven't voted is when I was in Spain. Otherwise I've voted in every election and I always will. Even if there's not a single candidate on the ballot that I approve of, I'll write somebody in.

To me it's just stupid to be passive about that sort of thing, regardless of the impact level.

I mean, if you want to be a sub, go to a dungeon or something.

[lighthousekeeper]

This thread forced me to read up on the US Electoral College (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Electoral_College). One rationale is used to have against voting was the prospect of Faithless Electors (cases where a particular electoral district's popular vote went one way, but the Elector for that district had his/her own agenda and voted for who he wanted, despite the popular vote for that district). But according to this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector), this seems to be a rare occurance and hasn't affected the overall outcome of a presidential election (yet).

Still, I'd hate to be a voter in a district who's Elector decided to ignore the popular vote and make his own choice.

[lighthousekeeper]

dola...

I do think that the electoral system we use does probably partially account for lower voter turnout: I think a lot of people are discouraged by the prospect that their vote in many cases is wiped out.

Despite what some people may think, if you vote DEM and your electoral district goes REP, then your vote at the national level = 0. Not 1/25,000,000, but 0/538.

[Pumpy Tudors]

The only time I haven't voted is when I was in Spain. Otherwise I've voted in every election and I always will. Even if there's not a single candidate on the ballot that I approve of, I'll write somebody in.

To me it's just stupid to be passive about that sort of thing, regardless of the impact level.

I mean, if you want to be a sub, go to a dungeon or something.
At the very least, would you write in my cousin Tanya next time you're placing a meaningless vote?

[lighthousekeeper]

At the very least, would you write in my cousin Tanya next time you're placing a meaningless vote?

Are you even allowed to vote for women?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Are you even allowed to vote for women?
Actually, I've consulted with a microbiologist at Seton Hill University, and there's a 0.15% chance that Tanya has a dong.

[Daimyo]

I lived in Indiana and then Illinois so my vote has never made a difference in a presidential election and probably never will. Chicago doesn't seem to be a city where voters can influence local politics much either... Daley has overwhelming support and gets whatever he wants. Sometimes I vote and sometimes I skip. Under these circumstances I never feel bad about skipping.

If I lived in a city where I felt it would make a difference or a state that was in contention for national elections I'd vote every time. *shurg*

[Barkeep49]

I think the obsession over voting is a poor understanding of one's civic duties. I think voting is merely one way one can work towards fulfilling that duty but hardly the only way (and FTR I've never missed a chance to vote having done so in every primary, general, and local election I've been eligible to do so).

[Daimyo]

To the point of the original post... I personally avoid political posts, but if you live in an area where your vote will have no effect isn't it better for you to talk politics with people whose votes have a chance to have an effect than to vote in your own elections?

ie, if I want Obama to be president, I get a lot more bang for my buck convincing a swing state voter to vote Obama compared to casting my own vote in IL.

[Noop]

You think everyone should vote? Everyone? The sillies who will write in "Hairy Ass McGee"? Me who'd rather vote for my cousin Tanya? The guy who lives up the street from me who only votes for people who have Japanese names? The woman on the other side of the street whose only obvious care in the world is who she gets to bum her next cigarette off of? The 18-year-old in my wife's computer science class whose biggest connection to democracy was when he wore a flag-patterned robe to school and flashed everyone in the quad as a goof?

Do you really want these people to decide who's "in charge" in our country?

Yes.

[Raiders Army]

Rock the Vote was probably a better campaign to get people to vote.

[Klinglerware]

ie, if I want Obama to be president, I get a lot more bang for my buck convincing a swing state voter to vote Obama compared to casting my own vote in IL.

Not unrelatedly, we see this in campaign finance--often, a somewhat significant portion of the funding in close Congressional and Gubernatorial races comes from donors who don't even live in-state.

[jeff061]

Is bitching about excessive media coverage alright?

[path12]

Actually, I've consulted with a microbiologist at Seton Hill University, and there's a 0.15% chance that Tanya has a dong.

vtbub might want to reconsider that pic request then. Or maybe not. Who am I to judge?

[Barkeep49]

Is bitching about excessive media coverage alright?
I know this is meant snidely but No. Generalized bitching and complaining is not participating in the political process and is thus not meeting your Civil obligation in any way.

[Radii]

I do think he has undergone stresses during his Presidency that no other in the history has.


*falls over* really?

Without even having to think about it:

Washington - Brand new country
Madison - War of 1812, including the nation's capital being ransacked by the enemy.
Lincoln
Wilson - WWI
Hoover - Great Depression
FDR - Recovering from the Depression + WWII


An argument could probably be made for all the presidents in the 50s and 60s and possibly even 70s as well, given that we were so concerned about a nuclear attack from the Soviets that schoolchildren were taught what to do and had drills on what to do in the event that another country bombed the shit out of us.


9/11/2001 is probably in the top 5 most stressful days in US History to be a leader(which might make for an interesting discussion also), but yeah I find this statement that W has had to deal with stress that no other president has to be extremely shortsighted, or at least inaccurate.

[CU Tiger]

I dont necessarily think it was a landslide or run away, but I do think the last 8 years have been more stressfull than any other time in history.

Lincoln - Some states totally ignored the whole war, many didnt even knw it was happening (Hell my Great great grandfather was killed in the Civil war, his wife found out 8 months later) So while it was a trying time for Lincoln he largely was omnipotent. Whatever he did was right because he had the benefit of control of reporters. There is also a significant amount of revisionous history there....

I think what separates this term from all the others, is first off we were attacked in the mainland of this country. This Presidency has been
riddled with 2 separate simultaneous wars (despite the cause or merit of either). And while all this has gone on we have a communist state with Nukes. An unstable nation with nuclear weapons, a communist dictator amassing one of the largest armies in the world all at the same time.

Granted NK doesnt pose the threat that Early 80s USSR did, but very few people were on TV talking about how Reagan was wrong for not brefriending the Soviets, etc.

I really dont know of another time when the country has opposed its leader as much as recently (Johnson maybe?) and with all the other stuff going on world wide. Add in a mini recession and economic indicators forecasting an impending crash for both his terms and I think its safe to say its been a pretty hectic 8 years.

[Passacaglia]

There's a big difference between not knowing if someone in the war was dead or alive and not knowing a war was going on.

[Barkeep49]

I can't take serious a guy who think that the Civil War wasn't an attack on the mainland of the country and that Lincoln, who was constantly subverted by his Generals, had it easier because he was only smeared occasionally, rather than 24/7 by the press.

[Cringer]

I think what separates this term from all the others, is first off we were attacked in the mainland of this country. This Presidency has been
riddled with 2 separate simultaneous wars (despite the cause or merit of either). And while all this has gone on we have a communist state with Nukes. An unstable nation with nuclear weapons, a communist dictator amassing one of the largest armies in the world all at the same time.


Though technically the same war, fighting in Europe and in the Pacific kind of equals this one out for WW II in my eyes. Actually, the war(s) right now are nothing compared to that IMO. I haven't seen much in the way of rationing common goods for the good of the war effort going on. I haven't seen major social changes needed for the good of the war effort. I consider WW II to be much more of a challenge to manage.....

[CU Tiger]

There's a big difference between not knowing if someone in the war was dead or alive and not knowing a war was going on.

Sure.
Thats why the last battles happened MONTHS after the surrender, right?

There are numerous accounts that can be read of those out west (comparatively) not even knowing there wwas a war. If they did it was little more than a blurb in a monthly story they came across.

I can't take serious a guy who think that the Civil War wasn't an attack on the mainland of the country and that Lincoln, who was constantly subverted by his Generals, had it easier because he was only smeared occasionally, rather than 24/7 by the press.

I separated Linccoln out because he was the only other President to suffer an attack on the mainland of his country. And I am sorry, but I hold the very unpopular view that Lincoln was not one of the better Presidents this country has known. Sure he has been romanticized and idealized to death, but I think an honest evaluation of his actions would raise quite a few eye brows.

Though technically the same war, fighting in Europe and in the Pacific kind of equals this one out for WW II in my eyes. Actually, the war(s) right now are nothing compared to that IMO. I haven't seen much in the way of rationing common goods for the good of the war effort going on. I haven't seen major social changes needed for the good of the war effort. I consider WW II to be much more of a challenge to manage.....

The fact that US industry was WILLING to provide the war effort in and of itself, is a point. Today we have no where near the patriotic and blind backing seen in WWII, and honestly we havent since Vietnam

[Celeval]

I have the right to own a gun. I chose not to own one. Am I not allowed to express my opinions about gun control because I haven't excercised my right to own a gun?

I think a better analogy is choosing to let someone else order your dinner, and then complaining about the toppings on your pizza.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I think a better analogy is choosing to let someone else order your dinner, and then complaining about the toppings on your pizza.
How about we let the whole country decide what I get to eat for dinner? I wanted peanuts on my pizza, but those motherfuckers wanted all of us to have pepperoni. SHIT!

[Subby]

Hell my great Great grandfather was killed in the Civil war...
What a load of horseshit.

[King of New York]

I vote in every election, and, yeah, I think that every citizen has a civic duty to stay informed enough so that he or she can vote in an informed way.

But it's a free country; people don't have to do their civic duty.

And as long as the electoral college is in existence, then the vast majority of those who claim that their vote doesn't count are, in fact, probably right; one can hardly blame those people for not voting in presidential elections.

[CU Tiger]

What a load of horseshit.

Ooops, left out a great there...Updated...and no its not BS

Actually no after re reading I left the cap off the first great, but it was my Great Great Grandfather that fought and died for the confederacy. I can get the exact battle brigade info neext time I talk to my sis if you'd like she has researched it and studied it relentlessly, even having an old diary of his and such.

[LloydLungs]

I think a better analogy is choosing to let someone else order your dinner, and then complaining about the toppings on your pizza.

Trying to keep with the analogy, I hate all possible pizza toppings, and basically believe pizza itself is fundamentally flawed. Yet, pizza's for dinner whether I want it or not.

I still have the right to whine about the toppings, just not to argue for one topping over another.

Note: I like pizza. This is just for the purposes of the analogy.

Other note: Now I'm hungry.

[Subby]

Ooops, left out a great there...Updated...and no its not BS
Okay that's at least within the realm of possibility. :)

[vtbub]

vtbub might want to reconsider that pic request then. Or maybe not. Who am I to judge?


Does she share pumpy's porn stache?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Does she share pumpy's porn stache?
She and I share a lot of things, but I'm trusting you guys to keep this shit quiet. After all, we are cousins.

[molson]

I think a better analogy is choosing to let someone else order your dinner, and then complaining about the toppings on your pizza.

That analogy works only if you single-handedly got to choose who wins.

Bucc said it well - voting is boring because all the candidates are so similar, and our lives aren't really changed by election outcomes (which is many ways is a good thing - it says a lot for our stability).

I had a law professor that said British People could describe American politics like this: "So they have a Republican Party, which is like our Conservative Party, and then they have a Democratic Party, which is like our Conservative Party"

[lighthousekeeper]

And I am sorry, but I hold the very unpopular view that Lincoln was not one of the better Presidents this country has known. Sure he has been romanticized and idealized to death, but I think an honest evaluation of his actions would raise quite a few eye brows.


The guy from SC is still bitter about the emancipation.

[DaddyTorgo]

wow. With the exception of the time I got to start a game thread (forget which one), this is the thread i've started that I think has gone on the longest in my tenure here at FOFC (# of posts-wise)

[DaddyTorgo]

And I am sorry, but I hold the very unpopular view that Lincoln was not one of the better Presidents this country has known. Sure he has been romanticized and idealized to death, but I think an honest evaluation of his actions would raise quite a few eye brows.




you know you might be pretty much all alone in this view. in the world. EVER. Which isn't to say that Lincoln didn't have flaws...he certainly did...but if you evaluate his life, his belief, his actions, the struggles he faced, he is for sure a GREAT man, and one of the top...5 presidents ever.

One of the greatest tragedies ever was the fact that his life was cut short by Booth, and in the long-run the South actually ended up the worse-off for it, as Lincoln's postwar policies were much less harsh than Johnson's.

[Buccaneer]

The guy from SC is still bitter about the emancipation.

Nor do they likely not have access to books.

[Radii]

I think, at least from what I've read so far,that CU Tiger is talking about stress as far as being alone and having a lack of public support, while I think those of us that disagree with him are talking about stress based on the events going on in the US and around the World. I really don't give to much of a crap about stress from public perception :) Stress because you're presiding over the great depression or World War II, regardless of public opinion... *that's* stress. And again, I'm not downplaying 9/11 and I would absolutely say Bush has presided over a more stressful period than Clinton or many other presidents. But I stand by my list.

Plus, you can't discount Lincoln simply because you feel like he was a bad president. He still presided over the Civil War... if you're going to do that I'm going to go ahead and discount everything that's happened in the US since 2002 since I feel like the large majority of the stress George Bush has to deal with is due to his own poor decision making.

[Chief Rum]

But my presidential vote doesn't matter. Indiana will go Republican regardless of how I vote.

I do regularly exercise my right to vote. But I feel the same way about California. I feel powerless to change the fact that my state will be led along by the overly liberal voter strongholds around LA and San Francisco. Just not enough conservatives In Sac Town or San Diego or Orange County to make up for them, especially with a steady stream of liberal-ready potential new voters coming in from Mexico.

[Autumn]

I agree with the sentiment that voting is a right, not compulsory, and that perhaps it's best if not everyone votes, if they really do not care.

However, I find the argument that "I don't vote because where I live my vote won't make a difference" odd. Sure, there are places that are historically lopsided. But if your criteria is that your vote decide an election, nobody should ever vote. Nobody ever casts "the winning vote" in an election the size of a state or national contest. Everybody's vote is "wasted" if you are only willing to consider a tie-breaking vote as useful.

Even lopsided contests need people to do the drudge work of actually voting. Didn't you guys see that Simpsons episode where Bart runs for class president???

Seriously, don't vote if you don't want to, there's plenty of reasons for it. But don't stay away from the polls just because you don't get to cast the tiebreaker.

[sterlingice]

Though technically the same war, fighting in Europe and in the Pacific kind of equals this one out for WW II in my eyes. Actually, the war(s) right now are nothing compared to that IMO. I haven't seen much in the way of rationing common goods for the good of the war effort going on. I haven't seen major social changes needed for the good of the war effort. I consider WW II to be much more of a challenge to manage.....
The fact that US industry was WILLING to provide the war effort in and of itself, is a point. Today we have no where near the patriotic and blind backing seen in WWII, and honestly we havent since Vietnam

You know, I had a nice long response to this typed up and figured it would get us so far off track it's not even funny. So, to suffice. The buzzword "Global War on Terror" is not a two fronted war like World War II and there are so many significant distinctions between the two that makes them all but incomparable.

SI

[Cringer]

To talk on topic. I just flipped over to ABC News during the Wildcard commercial. They were doing a story on some guy running for President. Nobody knows the guy, he has no money, no support from any group. Seemed like a decent guy, career military, father of eight.

Stuff like this just helps me become more down on our system. The Presidential elections have become all about popularity with the media, and getting big money behind you. This guy seems like an extreme case, I give you that, but I hate the two party system. My dream is to see a 3rd, 4th, even 5th party get more attention. The fact that you have to be in one of two parties to stand any kind of chance pisses me off.

I vote, and I will continue to do so. My vote will also continue to mean very little or nothing. I vote almost strictly 3rd party because I think both the big parties are too much alike, and I don't like what they are.

[Barkeep49]

On a serious note: What does that guy offer me that the 11 people running don't?

On a different note: I understand voting for a 3rd party because your views align more with that party. But the idea that the two parties are alike? That's crap.

[Greyroofoo]

To be fair for George Bush, no other president was almost assassinated by a pretzel.

[Cringer]

On a serious note: What does that guy offer me that the 11 people running don't?

On a different note: I understand voting for a 3rd party because your views align more with that party. But the idea that the two parties are alike? That's crap.

Part 1: I couldn't tell you what the guy offers. Most of it that I saw was a fluff piece and I never saw any real issues being talked about and only saw a small part of it overall.

Part 2: The two parties are very similar to me in several key areas. If you find that crap then so be it. Both parties do nothing but make government bigger, and that is the big one to me. Yes, they do have some very different ideological view points on many issues, the problem is that they are too concerned with their power, and not concerned enough about the actual issue to actually take a stance. In other words, neither party really has any balls any more because they are so worried about upsetting groups/voters and possibly losing their power. This is a good example, though I may not agree ideologically one some things with the source (Ralph Nader).....

There are few major differences and increasing similarities between Republicans and Democrats. The parties hold different positions on gun control. Regarding the environment, the Democrats aren't quite as bad as Republicans. There are differences between the two parties over Social Security and Medicare--although the Democrats don't even go as far as Richard Nixon and Harry Truman in proposing universal health care.

But look at the similarities. In the year 2000 it was hard to distinguish any differences between the Republicans and Democrats in Federal Reserve policy (both parties appointed Alan Greenspan), military policy, of foreign policy. In eight years under Clinton/Gore, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration didn't issue one chemical toxin control standard. Clinton and Gore gave a free ride to biotechnology, refusing to require labeling biotech foods in our supermarkets, despite the 90 percent of Americans wanting such labels. They gave a free ride to the petrochemical industry and the auto industry, including not proposing any fuel efficiency standards improvements in eight years. They gave a free ride to the nuclear industry, allowing it continual subsidies. They supported the North American Free Trade Agreement, a terribly anti-consumer, anti-environment decision. While differences exist, the parties are too similar to allow no challenge.

[CU Tiger]

The guy from SC is still bitter about the emancipation.

If you think for a split second that my beliefs have any basis on slavery, or racial lines at all, then it is obvious you havent read any number of posts on here by me, andd I wont find it necessary to comment further.

you know you might be pretty much all alone in this view. in the world. EVER. Which isn't to say that Lincoln didn't have flaws...he certainly did...but if you evaluate his life, his belief, his actions, the struggles he faced, he is for sure a GREAT man, and one of the top...5 presidents ever.

Hyperbole much?
Look ther are books written on his incompetenies. But no you are right. Lincoln was a fine man, we should all bow at his statue.

BTW, why were 3 of his personal servants given emancipation after his death? People belive all the slavery racial BS, the EP freed slaves IN "CONFEDERATE STATES ONLY" talk about hypocrisy. He only used the EP as military tool after Frnace had began mobilizing a military response to aid the South and there preciosu cotton supply, only then was th EP given due to the Spiritual Renaissance that was under way in Eaurope it was wwidely known that the French wouldnt want to be seen as supporting a slave backing state. It had no bearing on his moral feelings or obligations.

If anything my distaste for the man is due to his LACK equitable beeliefs.




One of the greatest tragedies ever was the fact that his life was cut short by Booth, and in the long-run the South actually ended up the worse-off for it, as Lincoln's postwar policies were much less harsh than Johnson's.

On this point I agree 100%.

[Dutch]

I do regularly exercise my right to vote. But I feel the same way about California. I feel powerless to change the fact that my state will be led along by the overly liberal voter strongholds around LA and San Francisco. Just not enough conservatives In Sac Town or San Diego or Orange County to make up for them, especially with a steady stream of liberal-ready potential new voters coming in from Mexico.

heh...I used to joke that when the Los Angeles County (I'm still a California "resident") totals were posted that Gore received 548,389 votes and Bush received 000,001 votes. I could be wrong, maybe it was 000,002. :)