Tips for a 3-4 defense?

[QuikSand]

I have been frustrated in a few modest attempts to get overall good production out of a 3-4 defense. I recognize these have been pretty limited attempts (mostly either with MP teams and therefore a very small sample size, or else with very weak teams hamstrung by some sort of house rules, so my calibration may not be correct). In any event, I have never felt like I knew what i was doing very well with a 3-4 front (well, maybe that overstates my feeling of same with the 4-3, but I hope you get my point).

I have a MP team where I happen to be really thin at DT (check), and have one outside linebacker with huge pass rushing skills (check) and at least by the personnel it seems like a no-brainer to go with the 3-4 there.

I'm fishing for tips. Anyone have general thoughts here?

[Tormaz]

Well. I have had A lot of success with the 3-4 defenses. It is all I run now.

I blitz on 75% of all plays I would say and I never send multiple players.
I blitz my SLB at least 60%.
I do not blitz my DBs at all. I set them to 0.
I then set my SILB for very little blitz, like 5%. My WILB gets the rest.
I use very little Nickle and no Dime defense.
I tend to set up more %'s going towards pass D instead of run D as I feel with 4 Linebackers on the field I should be able to still contain the run.


Defensive Line

I like guys with high PRS and high Run Def. I don't worry about PRT much because my feeling is these guys are there to take up space. I look at it like these guys should be taking on multiple blockers almost every snap, so I want guys who can push the pocket.

Linebackers

WLB is simple. You want high PRS and PRT. I also like him to have solid Run Def. Nothing spectacular, but solid.

WILB. I want a above average Run Stopper here. Also I like a guy with decent coverage skills and Play Diag for dropping into coverage. For pass rushing I really only look at PRS as I feel he will be taking on a OL guy pretty much any time he blitzes.

SILB. Excellent run stopper with high PRS for the same reason as the WILB. I also want this guy to be my best overall LB as he will be on the field in every situation. I try to get a stud to fill this spot.

SLB. Here I want good balance. I don't have to have a great LB at this spot but I want a guy who is good at everything. I like to have high PRS and PRT as I like to set my blitzes heavy to this guy.

Defensive Backs

Corners. Here I like to have guys who are good at all coverages and really strong at stopping the run. Since my OLB guys will be blitzing a ton these guys needs to be able to step up and help on the outside runs.

Free Safety. I try to get a coverge guy here. He is the only guy I don't care about run stopping on in the 3-4. I just want a strong coverage guy.

Strong Safety. Here I was a REALLY high run stopper. I don't worry about his coverages as much as the FS, but I like a good zone rating.

Well.. I know that is probably more than you really wanted to read, but I have had really good success with the 3-4 and thats the basic formula I use.

[QuikSand]

I have had A lot of success with the 3-4 defenses.

Thanks for the feedback. Any context for this, in particular?

As in -- your defenses put up very good stats in multi player? Single player? When your team is loaded with talent? Mediocre in talent? Doesn't matter?

I guess I have a long-standing problem with single player in that it is just so easy to put together a far superior team (in pure talent terms) than your opposition, than it's deceiving to say "my team did well, it must be because I did this in my gameplan." Your description of types of players sort of backs that up... sure, I'd love to have top-shelf players at nearly every position like is possible in single player, but in a MP league that rarely is achievable.

Anyhow - thanks for taking time to respond. Interesting to hear your thoughts on the ratings mix for your DL -- I confess that I haven't gotten any feel for what ratings might have gotten more important since the various rounds of patches were applied, and maybe PRS is more important than it apparently used to be.

I also wonder how much we're applying some "real football" knowledge to FOF here, and shifting our expectations of DL even though the game may not be doing so. (Meaning you, me, and most anyone else trying to put together a 3-4 front)

[stevew]

I'm kind of in the same boat as QS. I was contempating more zone coverage, and possibly blitzing DB's a bit more frequently. I really don't even know how to handle it though. I usually concentrate a lot more on outscoring people, i guess.

[ShaneTheMaster]

I have struggled with the 3-4 as well. Since I had an excellent set of LBs, I moved to the 3-4 defense, and ever since then, my defense has gotten way worse. I have excellent talent at all 4 LB positions, have 2 good DEs, and 2 great corners, but I still have one of the worse defenses in the league. I generally use the default gameplan for defense, (except for the swapping of numbers that SD discovered on the packages screen). I am beginning to wonder if there are any other internal bugs gameplan-wise with the 3-4.

[Tormaz]

Thanks for the feedback. Any context for this, in particular?

As in -- your defenses put up very good stats in multi player? Single player? When your team is loaded with talent? Mediocre in talent? Doesn't matter?
I only play MP.

I wouldn't say my teams are loaded with talent. My corners generally have about 40 ratings in pass coverages. I don't believe I have what you would consider a shut down corner on any team.

When I draft I always look to draft defense first unless there is just a obvious stud to take at an offensive skill position I need. I do this because I can game plan on offense much easier than defense. I also find its much easier to fine system players for offense than it is defense.

I'm kind of in the same boat as QS. I was contempating more zone coverage, and possibly blitzing DB's a bit more frequently. I really don't even know how to handle it though. I usually concentrate a lot more on outscoring people, i guess.

That would be an interesting concent. In the 3-4 I play no zone at all. None, except in what I consider obvious passing downs(Extreme Passing Situations). I wonder if you set up a 3-4, heavy zone/heavy blitz from your DB's how that would work.

[QuikSand]

Well. I have had A lot of success with the 3-4 defenses. It is all I run now.

I blitz on 75% of all plays I would say and I never send multiple players.
I blitz my SLB at least 60%.
I do not blitz my DBs at all. I set them to 0.
I then set my SILB for very little blitz, like 5%. My WILB gets the rest.
I use very little Nickle and no Dime defense.
I tend to set up more %'s going towards pass D instead of run D as I feel with 4 Linebackers on the field I should be able to still contain the run.

I do not claim to be a leader in understanding these things, but this sort of approach is basically what I would expect to be hammered by the undisclosed "offense was very familiar with the defense." Without your testimony otherwise, I would have guessed that this was basically too much blitzing, not enough variation in the blitzers, and not enough variation in formations -- all leading to real problems, especially late in games.

[Tormaz]

It could lead to that , I personally have no clue.

The team that I currently run with in MP leads the league giving up just over 16 points a game and is 3rd in overall yardage given up.

That might be misleading though as I dominate the time of possession with the leagues best rushing attack.

[CraigSca]

Fwiw, the Encryptors defense in WOOF is a 3-4. I think I have top-notch talent, especially my front 7, yet we inexplicably give up gobs of yards on the run. I'm Rexxing my defense mostly...

I'd really like to hear of someone successfully putting together a 3-4 defense in MP. Is it possible to do so, is there a bug, or are we missing something?

[Tormaz]

I would like to believe my 3-4 is a successful one.

[Ben E Lou]

It could lead to that , I personally have no clue.

The team that I currently run with in MP leads the league giving up just over 16 points a game and is 3rd in overall yardage given up.

That might be misleading though as I dominate the time of possession with the leagues best rushing attack.

1. What league and team is it?

2. Where do you rank in yards per carry and yards per pass attempt?

[QuikSand]

Tormaz, do you have a link to your league? Does it post stats and such online somewhere where outsiders could look through?

[YoSoySean]

Like Tormaz I have only anecdotal evidence. It was also with an outstanding running team (two backs split time and each ran for over 1000 yards) and before the switch to 2k7 so I don't know how useful it is. The league is still running but all of the players are now 4 years older so I don't have anything exact.

My defense was built around 4 really good players, 5 that were on the better side of mediocre, and two corners that it would be kind to rate as mediocre. The team was built around getting to the quarterback as much as possible, sacking him or forcing him into bad throws, and doing at least an adequate job of stopping the run.

Here was the team's make up (basing it off of memory and looking at the stats)

RDE: Super stud. It's a real player league that started in 2003. The season was 2009. The player was Dwight Freeney. The stats: 10.0 sacks and 39 hurries.

NT: Something around a 56-58 overall. Really good pass rusher, adequate run stopper.

LDE: Pure pass rusher. Almost no run D. Has 7 sacks and 12 hurries.

WLB: A not-yet-fully-developed star. Something like 64/80. Very good pass rusher and above average run stopper. Had 6.5 sacks.

WILB: Very good run stopper, good man-to-man cover.

SILB: Pure run stopper. Good play diagnosis.

SLB: Another great but not fully developed stud. Outstanding run defense and man D. I never blitzed him, hoping he'd cover the tight end or rb on pass plays.

CBs: Mostly crap. Had fairly good man/bump. I ran pretty much no zone.

SS: High INT, high punishing hitter.

FS: Very good all-around guy. Led the team in tackles most years... though he was 5th on the team in this season because people didn't seem to get past the LBs.

I recently rejoined this league and am trying to build something similar. They already have an elite rated de and this time a potential shut-down corner. Maybe I can bring better hard data after a couple of seasons.

[bulletsponge]

i also runa 3-4 in a mp league. i wouldnt say its a great defense, my dl is mediocre and so are my corners. i picked 3-4 with them because of the good LB corps and have added to them a star WLB. my defense is fairly average, but they arnt bad at forcing turnovers. i will try to test out Tomaz's recomendations to see how they work. i normally let the computer do most of the D gameplanning so i hope i dont screw a pooch. i have 1 free game before the playoffs to test it, if i dont get killed ill carry it over into the playoffs

[QuikSand]

...before the switch to 2k7 so I don't know how useful it is...

For data collection purposes, that might be a big red flag. It seems that quite a lot has changed with the 3-4 defense between FOF 2004 and FOF 2007... I have no doubt that it was entrirely feasible to assemble a very good defense using the 3-4 in FOF 2004, but my question is definitely built around the game we have before us now. Heck, even performance before patch 6.1 or so (whenever some of the nickel defense blitzing problems were fixed, I lose track) will probably be of little use here, as the 3-4 defense has pretty clearly changed a good deal.

In any event, thanks for posting -- just a pointer for the utility of this thread. I think we pretty much need to focus on recent results to try to untangle the 3-4 defense in FOF 2007 v 6.1a and beyond.

[Julio Riddols]

I also use the 3-4 exclusively.

I'd like to think my 3-4 defenses in the UFL and RNFL are very good defenses, mostly due to our ability to stop the run in both leagues. It took me a while to nail down a scheme that really worked, but I gameplan entirely by myself except for coverages, where I allow the coach to recommend his settings, then I modify them to make sure I don't use 4 deep zone in any situation except for extreme pass, and so that I don't use 3 deep zone any more than 30% except in pass or extreme pass.

The UFL version of this defense has been very successful, and I have begun using it in all 4 of my leagues based on the results I had seen over about a 6 game span at the beginning of the current season. In every league except the eNFL, (where my LB corps and DL is horrid, IMO) the defense has worked well since its implementation.

Statistics from current seasons in leagues with significant usage of this gameplan/scheme- (Keep in mind I have not used this defense for an entire season yet in any league, since this season was the season I found the current formula I am using. I think a lot of the success had to do with the discovery of the goalline personnel bug, as I was better able to set up my run defense.)

UFL (through 15 games, 11 with current GP) <-- This defense is totally lacking in the secondary, but has a solid front 7 and the best DT of any of my defenses.

http://www.sadera.com/ufl/frame.php?10 <-- Click the summary for the Detroit Wheels.

RNFL (through 7 games, 3 with current GP)<-- This defense is probably my best built overall personnel wise that I have tried this scheme with, strong in the right skills in almost every position, except for a slight drop off at the free safety spot and not quite ideal MLBs.

http://www.replicatednfl.com/leaguehtml/16summary.html

eNFL (full season, 6 games with current GP) <-- This is a poor defense talent wise, an example of personnel that either don't fit the scheme or just simply cannot play. This team also has the best offense of any of my MP teams, so that tells me even more about how porous we are.

http://www.eripsa.net/eNFL/leaguehtml/17summary.html

-------------------------------------------------------------

The personnel I look for are the following:

DE's need to be run stoppers first and foremost, everything else is secondary and just an added bonus.

DT is a key point in the defense, this is a spot where I think a very highly skilled player helps greatly, but run stopping is paramount.

SLB/ MLBs I like to have high play diagnosis and good run stopping ability, pass coverage is secondary but recommended, and pass rushing skills are just an added bonus.

WLB is THE most important position to get right, IMO. A killer pass rusher with good play diagnosis can terrorize a QB and help force incompletions and sacks. I would put the order of preference in skills as follows:
1. pass rush technique
2. play diagnosis
3. pass rush strength
4. run defense
5. endurance
6,7,8. pass coverage skills

CBs and FS need coverage skills and play diagnosis first and foremost, interceptions, then run defense. Everything else is icing on the cake.

SS should be a run stuffer first, but not if that is all they can do.. A little coverage skill helps, with interceptions secondary, then everything else behind that.

That is my blueprint for personnel.

As far as my approach to blitzing, I try to spread it evenly among the 3 LBs and sometimes a little to the SS, but nobody else. The WLB is the main pressure provider, these other guys are mostly just to confuse the O-line and give them more guys to block so the QB can't just sit back all day.

When I expect the run I blitz very little, and if I do blitz, I usually bring the house.

When I expect the pass I blitz VERY often, but usually only one guy unless its a very obvious passing situation.

Thats my basic setup, but I haven't yet built a defense that I believe would be truly dominant with this scheme. I think my OSFL defense is the closest, but I will have to upgrade the DL this offseason to see what results I get.

-----------------------------

EDIT: My UFL summary didn't link directly to my team summary page, but to the league. My team is the Detroit Wheels.

EDIT 2: My RNFL defense has forced 11 turnovers (9 int) and allowed the following yardage totals in the 3 weeks I have used this particular defense- 218, 283, 227. We have allowed 7, 9 and 13 points in those 3 games. In the previous 4 without this gameplan, we gave up 412, 393, 372, and 425 yards. We allowed 28, 24, 33 and 26 points in those games.

[QuikSand]

JR, thanks for the extensive notes. It does seem you have found a good spot with your defense... I guess it's tough to say how well it would be doing with a 4-3 front and the same personnel. Practically impossible to separate out whether your success if due to the formation, in spite of it, or neither.

WLB is THE most important position to get right, IMO. A killer pass rusher with good play diagnosis can terrorize a QB and help force incompletions and sacks. I would put the order of preference in skills as follows:

1. pass rush technique
2. play diagnosis
3. pass rush strength
4. run defense
5. endurance
6,7,8. pass coverage skills


Any particular thought on the importance of play diagnosis here? I may have this conceptually, wrong, but I think of Play D as basically "should I play the run or pass?" and for a full-time pass rusher, I don't see what he needs it for, to be candid. Anything to back this up? Or have you just gotten better results our of the blitzbacker/willie when he is more of a full package than just simple pass rushing?

[QuikSand]

By the way, I still get a chuckle out of the screen name Julio Riddols. I wish we had gotten more out of your namesake up in Wyoming.

[Julio Riddols]

I wish it would have worked out better for the real Julio as well.. I heard he's up in Wyoming coaching Pop Warner ball.

As for play diagnosis.. You know, I don't know why I put that up there.. I think it was an old theory of mine that just got disproven with a look at the stats of my current WLBs.

My WLB in UFL, Calvin Favron, had a PR percentage of 8.7 this past season with a diagnosis of only 22.

My WLB in OSFL, Otis "Head Gone" Vaughn, had a PR % of 8.6 with a diagnosis of 64.

I think what made me think it had something to do with play diagnosis was that Vaughn had a PR % of 9.3 the previous season with 20.5 sacks, 20 hurries, and 43 knockdowns in only 14 games.. Those numbers sort of clouded my head I think.

After rethinking it all, I believe that the order of preference for WLB ratings should be as follows-

1. PR Tech
2. PR Strength
3. Run Defense
4. Endurance
5. Diagnosis
6. Other skills

No matter what though, the key position is WLB for me.

[Julio Riddols]

Also, I am almost positive the success of this defense is due to the gameplan itself more than the players, but good players at the right spots make the gameplan work. My eNFL front 7 is full of over the hill guys and undrafted free agents who aren't good at all.. I think my average overall rating falls somewhere in the low 40s. I also don't have a decent WLB on that team, so there is virtually no pass rush. We can't get pressure on the QB, which stops my good secondary from being able to play to their potential and makes it real hard to stop a decent offense. We give up almost 400 yards a game in that league.

In a few months, I will have a much better chunk of results to mull over, which will hopefully tell a little more about the feasibility of the 3-4.