Are tackles randomly asigned after the play like KRB?

[Icy]

We already know that KRB are "randomly" assigned to the Olinemen (probably now 100% randomly but based on some criterium + random).

I wonder if tackles are also assigned the same way. Sometimes i see DT's tackling somebody a few yards after the line of scrimage, that i find somewhat weird, but don't have any sample right now to discuss, feel free to add one if you have it on hand.

What caught my atention this time was this play in the NAFL:

Baltimore: Single-Back formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the pass.

1-10-BAL23 (3Q: 07:06) Matt Schaub pass completed to WR Albert Mayes for 45 yards. Tackled by ILB Les Collier. Mayes gained 7 yards after the catch.

So let's see if i underestand it well:

1) The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage.

So i underestand that my two safeties are deep, my 3 cornebacks are on M2M bump & run covering the 3 WR's, the SLB is probably covering the TE and the ILB is in the middle playing zone and covering the routes over the middle, or on m2m covering the short routes by the RB comming from the backfield, am i right?

2) The C snaps the ball, the WR's start to run their routes, WR Albert Mayes runs a deep route (of around 45-7=38 yards deep). The CB covering him is or running close to him, or have been beat in the bump by the WR and is running after him with some space in beween. The safeties were playing deep zone too, so at least one of them is also running back to cover the pass. The ILB probably saw it was a pass play so he started to run back too, but with a distance disvantage over the WR's, CB's and Safeties.

3) The QB throws the deep 38 yards pass, WR Albert Mayes who had some spearation from the CB and probably also from the Safeties catches the ball and runs 7 yards more and then...

The ILB, who is usually slower than the CB's and SS, has ran for 45 yards, running faster than the WR, the CB, and safety and even the ball thrown and is waiting there to tackle WR Albert Mayes ??????

I just don't get it so please somebody with enough football knowledge (as i must admit i'm not the best about it) explain me how that play is possible unless the ILB can fly like Superman.This is just s sample that caught my atention today, but i have seen some ther weird things in the past. If it has a logical explanation then fine, but if not, it would mean that tackles are randomly asigned after the play like KRB, and if so, how can i really know if my defenders are doing well or not looking at their number of tackles if just a random dice roll designs who makes those tackles?

[Icy]

Dola, found another questionable play:

Minnesota: Single-Back formation with trips receivers, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 and 1-deep, bump-and-run coverage, expecting the run.

1-10-MIN42 (1Q: 04:24) Ben Roethlisberger pass completed to WR Quentin Giles for 13 yards. Tackled by DT Grant Rayburn. The receiver ran his route right over the middle of the field.

For sure that DT must be so fast to go back 13 yards at the same speed than the WR's while no other defenders could tackle him.

[MalcPow]

Things like this happen. In the first play, it's not uncommon for the MLB to run deep down the middle of the field in what is commonly called a Cover 2 (and according to the documentation the game describes as 2-deep bump) so it's not unlikely that a deep ball might be thrown down the middle of the field and the MLB would be around to make a tackle. Try also not to think of the play as some perfect execution where the receiver catches the ball at a dead sprint in perfect stride. It's not uncommon for deep balls to be underthrown or for the receiver that catches a pass to be slowed up or moving laterally after a catch downfield. If you think of the play like that, it's easier to conceptualize.

Same with the second play more or less. Think of it this way, the receiver catches the ball coming across the middle and stopping in a hole in the zone. Defenders are converging on him as he turns to make a move so he's moving laterally or dancing a bit to try to break free, leaving plenty of time for a DT to close from behind.

These things happen all the time. It's easier to conceptualize if you remember that often things aren't happening as perfectly fluid, flawlessly executed routes. Receivers dance, balls are underthrown, guys come from the backside or behind to make tackles all the time. Hope that helps.

Edit to add: I know that doesn't really answer your question, and I'd say it's open for debate. But this is how these things *would* happen.

[Ben E Lou]

My sense here is that these sorts of plays are the exception, not the norm, which would indicate that these are representations of the types of plays that MalcPow mentions. If we were seeing DTs making tackles on 13-yard passes as frequently as corners and safeties, then we might have something to be concerned about, but that's not the case. I noticed that when my MP teams were pure Run-N-Stunhttp://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/trademark.gif, the opposition's corners and safeties tended to have a very high percentage of the passes caught, passes defended, and tackles on pass plays.

[pizzaddict]

I can't remember any time that I have seen a DT make a tackle 13 yards downfield. In a 4-3 wouldn't the DT be trying to pressure the QB, therefore he would have had to rush the QB, stop after the pass, turn around, sprint 13-15 yards downfield and then make a tackle. Seems a little unlikely/impossible.

[Koprnkc]

I dont see a problem with the DT making a tackle 13yrds down the field. Its possible for a reciever to make the catch, have a safety or Corner drapped all over him enough to slow him down for a DT or DE to make the tackle. I dont the play by play in the game reflects that this has happened thou, and that is why its hard to believe it.

[3ric]

It's fun to imagine these kinds of broken plays. IRL I saw a Dolphins - Bills game on TV where Miami's lack of pass coverage left Thurman Thomas open in the flat. Jim Kelly lofted a pass towards the corner of the end zone. Defensive end Marco Coleman realized what was happening and hustled 30 yards downfield to swat the ball away.

[Kobeck]

an overly complex zone blitz scheme by some Jim Schwartz type DC is my guess.

I could definatly see Jimbelina dropping 97 Brown into a short zone and having 52 Fowler blitzing. Of course I think Schwartz is dumber than a box of hammers though.

In all seriousness the Titans used to drop Kearse into coverage 2-3 times a game. And Kearse made lots of tackles downfield because he rarely got caught up in traffic. Of course this was before his foot. And I know Kearse was a DE and not a DT, but the Titans generally run a more traditional 43 so these type plays stand out.

FWIW I have no problem with the occasional FS making a tackle for loss while only looking for the pass or whatever. Certainly we can all envision those plays happening.

And back to the original point there seems to be a lot of random factors so it would not at all suprise me if this was not another of them.

[Yoda]

I can't remember any time that I have seen a DT make a tackle 13 yards downfield. In a 4-3 wouldn't the DT be trying to pressure the QB, therefore he would have had to rush the QB, stop after the pass, turn around, sprint 13-15 yards downfield and then make a tackle. Seems a little unlikely/impossible.

Maybe you should watch the Eagles and Pat's more often. DT's / DE's dropping back into isn't uncommon for them.

[QuikSand]

Well, I'll take the road less traveled here, and offer my observation that *of course* the game basically identifiess a universe of eligible players to be assigned a tackle on a given play, and picks one of them to award credit. I think the hope is that the selection is done in concert with the various players' importance to stopping the play.

[Ben E Lou]

]I think the hope is that the selection is done in concert with the various players' importance to stopping the play.[/B]

That's what I was trying to say here, but you said it more succinctly.


My sense here is that these sorts of plays are the exception, not the norm, which would indicate that these are representations of the types of plays that MalcPow mentions. If we were seeing DTs making tackles on 13-yard passes as frequently as corners and safeties, then we might have something to be concerned about, but that's not the case. I noticed that when my MP teams were pure Run-N-Stunhttp://www.younglifenorthdekalb.com/fofc/trademark.gif, the opposition's corners and safeties tended to have a very high percentage of the passes caught, passes defended, and tackles on pass plays.

[Solecismic]

I don't want to get into the algorithms in any great detail, but neither KRBO nor tackles are assigned after the play is resolved.

KRBs are not credited unless a certain play criteria is reached.

[ace1914]

but neither KRBO nor tackles are assigned after the play is resolved.

:eek:

[QuikSand]

This sounds like a semantic issue to me, the before vs. after delineation.

It's pretty clear with KROs, a certain player on every designed running play is picked to get the key run opportunity. If the overall play result reaches a certain success level (however that is calculated) then that same player is also credited with a KRB. Meaning the KRB% is essentially "% of running plays with this player selected as the key blocker that succeeded."

I presume that the game also selects a "key" defender for a given play. I guess the clarification above is informing us that this takes place either before or during the play, rather than afterwards (basically built into my assumptions above). I'm not sure what might happen within the play to change who gets the tackle eventually (assuming there is a tackle to be credited) but I think the operating assumption from above -- that the game selects a certain player from a set of possible players who might -- is still correct, and is not contravened by the developer's comments above.

I certainly welcome correction if this is incorrect somewhere.

[Warhammer]

What might be at work here is a routine that might specifiy a certain subset of players to choose from.

From LoS to 5 yards downfield, the front 7 have an 85% chance of making the play, else the secondary can make the play.

From 5 - 10 yards downfield, the back 7 have an 85% chance of making the place, else the DL has a chance of making a play.

Throw in some commands for side of the field, etc., and there you have it.

I think the fact that Jim mentioned that there is no assignment of the stat until after the play gives creedence to the fact that some factors are taken into account as part of a unit. I have always found that the biggest factor in keeping an opponent's running game in check is having a bunch of players with 50+ run defense.

Sure, there is some weight to the side of the defense, pass/run, etc., but I think the best way to model the NFL is not a player on player matchup like basketball, but teams as a whole. Coaches always try to get some players isolated, but that doesn't always happen, etc.

[Anthony]

i file this under the category of "i don't care who makes the tackle - i just want *someone* to make the tackle". :)

[tarcone]

I like to think the WR made a jumping catch and banged into the safety on the way down, pushing the WR backwards. The DT was handled at the line responds to the pas by running downfield is approaching the WR as the WR is regaining forward motion. The DT with a fukk head of steam smashes him from behind.

MLBs play the deep middle zone. in the Tampa 2. Thats why he needs to be athletic. WR makes and acrobatic catch but is stumbling ILB catches him.

[TimL]

It does happen. We saw game film of a lineman once almost get a QB sack, then hustle down the field to make the tackle on the receiver who was dodging DBs Devin Hester style.

[dberner30]

to add to the fire...i dont have the log handy and im not sure i remember which league it was in...but the gist was this...

D-Line player gets the "smashes the O-Line guy and is all over the QB" language. Pass is downfield 15 yards or so with NO YAC and the same D-Line guy then makes the tackle.

So unless you want to make a WR running backwards and looping all over the place to keep a play alive long enough for the D-Line guy to turn away from the QB and run 15 yards downfield + any lateral distance + any distance for QB depth from the original line of scrimmage i would say something in there is a little hokey...

[Sgran]

I trust Jim. These plays you guys freak out about are explainable. They are unlikely, but over the course of a game, and over a season, these things come out in the wash. My guess is that the game works from the inside out making calculations based first on the individual match-ups on the line -- starting in the hole if it's a run play -- and working outward from there. I don't know why everyone wants to find a big conspiracy here.

[dberner30]

Probably because these types of goofy things happen a lot more often than they should.

It seems like all good FOF debates are like talking religion. One side points out inconsistencies and problems and the other tries to explain them away. Eventually when pressed with difficult to explain items the one side yells "you just gotta have faith."

So now this thread ends with just such a cry. Yet the inconsistencies are not explained. All we get is I dont want to talk too much about the algorithim but trust me it works. Just ignore these odd outcomes.

and since when did the FOF defensive screen provide for zone blitz schemes that drop DE/DT guys into coverage. I havent seen those anywhere. I could see the DE/DT making tackles on short passes or screens etc. Beyond that it is an odd occurrence and needs explaining.

[larrymcg421]

This isn't a physics based football game, so stuff like this will happen from time to time, probably more often than it really should. I just assume, like others have said, that on certain types of plays, players will have different % of likeliness that they will make the tackle, and this % is modified by the position and skill of the player.

I once saw Zach Thomas rush the passer and later tackle a WR 30 yards down the field on the same play. It happens.

[Ben E Lou]

I just assume, like others have said, that on certain types of plays, players will have different % of likeliness that they will make the tackle, and this % is modified by the position and skill of the player.Bingo. My assumption here as well.

I suspect that this discussion is similar to the notion that some had that passes thrown into double coverage were completed more often than those not thrown into double coverage--a notion proven completely false by primelord's data mining. (It wasn't even close.) People remember the instances that look unusual, which causes them to think incorrectly that it happens with greater frequency than it really is.