Ping: Marines. Suck it.

[Subby]

Berkeley to Marines: You're 'not welcome in our city'

(http://rss.cnn.com/%7Er/rss/cnn_topstories/%7E3/231723227/index.html)* Berkeley, California, tells Marine recruiters they're "not welcome in our city"
* GOP lawmakers introduce bill to take $2 million in federal funds from city
* Protester says recruiters attract youth "to go to Iraq to kill and be killed"
* Veteran blasts City Council, says Marines are "the best thing we have"

(CNN) -- Berkeley, the famously liberal college town in California, has taken aim at Marine recruiters, saying they are "not welcome in our city."

Republican lawmakers in Washington fired back this week, threatening to take back more than $2 million of federal funding to the city as well as money designated for the University of California-Berkeley, the campus that became a haven of protests during the Vietnam War.

The battle erupted after the Berkeley City Council approved a measure last week urging the Marine recruiters to leave their downtown office.

"If recruiters choose to stay, they do so as uninvited and unwelcome intruders," the item says.

It goes on to say the council applauds residents and organizations that "volunteer to impede, passively or actively, by nonviolent means, the work of any military recruiting office located in the City of Berkeley."

Outside the Shattuck Avenue recruiting station earlier this week, a handful of protesters with the anti-war group Code Pink camped out, strumming a guitar as they sang anti-war songs and held signs against the Iraq war.

"Time to end the war, time to end the war, time to end the war right now," they sang to the beat of "I've Been Working on the Railroad."

One giant sign said, "No Military Predators in Our Town." Another message on a pink placard read, "Join the Marines. Travel to Exotic Lands. Meet Exciting and Unusual People -- And Kill Them."

Zanne Joi peered out from under her straw hat. "This Marine recruiting station is trying to recruit our youth to go to Iraq to kill and be killed. And we are against that," said Joi, a member of Code Pink Women for Peace.

"This is part of a multi-pronged effort to end this war."

Protester Sharon Adams added: "This recruiting station recruits people to go fight and then once they fight and they serve their country, our country doesn't take care of them. That's a shame."

But not everyone here supports the protesters.

Forrest Smith, who described himself as a veteran of U.S. Special Forces, said his son recently returned from a tour in Iraq and his daughter served in Afghanistan.

"My position on this is the Marines are the best thing we have," said Smith, decked out in Army fatigues.

He blasted the City Council for its action. "It's clearly an abuse of power."

A group of young students who strolled down the sidewalk shared that sentiment. They derided one of the protesters who argued the United States was involved in an illegal war in Iraq.

"Where's the logic in that whatsoever?" one of the young men said. "That's our national security, and you're here protesting the Marines."

Another said, "It makes me sick. It makes me sick."

Gunnery Sgt. Pauline Franklin, a spokeswoman for the Marine Corps Recruiting Command, told CNN there is "no plan for that office to move."

She said recruiters are there to "provide information to qualified men and women who are looking for opportunities that they may benefit from by serving in the military."

"The Marine Corps is here to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, which does guarantee the freedom of speech," Franklin said. "In terms of the situation in Berkeley, the City Council and the protesters are exercising their right to do so."

In Washington, a group of Republican lawmakers have introduced the Semper Fi Act of 2008 -- named after the Marine motto -- to rescind more than $2 million of funds for Berkeley and transfer it to the Marine Corps.

"Like most Americans, I really get disturbed when taxpayer money goes to institutions which proceed to take votes, make policy or make statements that really denigrate the military," said Sen. David Vitter, R-Louisiana, a co-sponsor of the bill.

He told CNN he believes the bill will pass. "I think it's going to have significant support."

The bill's co-sponsor, Sen. Jim DeMint, R-South Carolina, said in a written statement, "Berkeley needs to learn that their actions have consequences."

Berkeley's declaration, which was introduced by the city's Peace and Justice Commission, accuses the United States of having a history of "launching illegal, immoral and unprovoked wars of aggression and the Bush administration launched the most recent of those wars in Iraq and is threatening the possibility of war in Iran."

It adds, "Military recruiters are salespeople known to lie to and seduce minors and young adults into contracting themselves into military service with false promises regarding jobs, job training, education and other benefits."

Out on Shattuck Avenue, it appears the protesters have no plans to leave anytime soon. "We are the civilian population; we control the military," Adams said. "We the people have to take back our control of the military."

[Greyroofoo]

Air Force > Marines

[JonInMiddleGA]

If there's ever been a place that should be bombed off the face of the earth, it's Bezerkley.

[rkmsuf]

Why would the Marines even want any of the pussies from Berkeley?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Why does it seem like every city council in every city across America is retarded?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Why would the Marines even want any of the pussies from Berkeley?

Target practice?

[Butter]

Berkeley's still virulently liberal and anti-war.

In other news, cell phones are now a hot item. Who knew?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Why does it seem like every city council in every city across America is retarded?

And yet people wonder why I'm not really a big fan of too much "local control".

[Klinglerware]

It's Berkeley, what do you want?

[Subby]

Regardless of how you feel about the protest, do you think this approach could be considered as an unconstitutional infringement on free speech?:

In Washington, a group of Republican lawmakers have introduced the Semper Fi Act of 2008 -- named after the Marine motto -- to rescind more than $2 million of funds for Berkeley and transfer it to the Marine Corps.

"Like most Americans, I really get disturbed when taxpayer money goes to institutions which proceed to take votes, make policy or make statements that really denigrate the military," said Sen. David Vitter, R-Louisiana, a co-sponsor of the bill.

[st.cronin]

Why would the Marines even want any of the pussies from Berkeley?

+1

The surprising thing from that story is that the Marines actually recruit in Berkeley.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Regardless of how you feel about the protest, do you think this approach could be considered as an unconstitutional infringement on free speech?:

Not at all, as funds can be reallocated if a more deserving need is found. I mean, there's nothing preventing them from saying what they want, but actions have consequences (and rightfully so).

[Sgran]

has ahnold reacted?

[JPhillips]

"Like most Americans, I really get disturbed when taxpayer money goes to institutions which proceed to take votes, make policy or make statements that really denigrate paying for sex," said Sen. David Vitter, R-Louisiana, a co-sponsor of the bill.

[ISiddiqui]

Regardless of how you feel about the protest, do you think this approach could be considered as an unconstitutional infringement on free speech?:

Congress has spending power. They don't have to give federal funding out to everyone. They can place conditions on it.

[molson]

Congress has spending power. They don't have to give federal funding out to everyone. They can place conditions on it.

Yup see, "raise your drinking age to 21 or we'll cut your federal highway funding" for the most famous example.

[Dr. Sak]

I wonder if these were the same kids that were camped out in the trees outside Cal's football stadium in protesting the University's decision to cut the trees down to build a bigger facility?

[Karlifornia]

If there's ever been a place that should be bombed off the face of the earth, it's Bezerkley.

JonInMiddleQatar

"Time to end the war, time to end the war, time to end the war right now," they sang to the beat of "I've Been Working on the Railroad."

How does this even work? I'm trying to figure it out...but I just wind up holding notes for way too long.

[Anthony]

this pic is the funniest:

http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/2008/US/02/07/berkeley.protests/t1home.protesters.cnn.jpg

[JonInMiddleGA]

How does this even work? I'm trying to figure it out...but I just wind up holding notes for way too long.

+1

[Mustang]

this pic is the funniest:

http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/2008/US/02/07/berkeley.protests/t1home.protesters.cnn.jpg

Which part?

The guy quoting Full Metal Jacket or the shaved Yeti?

[Anthony]

I mean, there's nothing preventing them from saying what they want, but actions have consequences (and rightfully so).

then it's not exactly free speech then. free speech is just what it is - a right that you have with no strings attached.


that's like your neighbor telling you you're free to bang his hot wife all you want, but if you do it he's gonna shit in your mailbox and shove your own penis up your anus.

that's not exactly a great deal.

[Anthony]

Which part?

The guy quoting Full Metal Jacket or the shaved Yeti?

i'm going to assume that is a female.


i shudder to think if that thing is married. that would mean someone is actually legally obligated to fornicate with her - and only her - for the rest of his life. ooof.

[JonInMiddleGA]

free speech is just what it is - a right that you have with no strings attached.

Except that isn't what "free speech" is, and never has been.

[DaddyTorgo]

my take: they can protest and pass resolutions saying "we don't like you."

that's all protected under freedom of speech and they should be able to keep their $$.

it's when they actively ban them and remove them from town that they cross the line.

[cartman]

but if you do it he's gonna shit in your mailbox

I thought we already went over what is allowed in mailboxes in another thread.

[JonInMiddleGA]

they should be able to keep their $$.

They're extremely lucky they aren't prosecuted for treason, really no sense getting greedy.

[Dr. Sak]

Maybe the US should allow Berkley to make itself its own country and when it does send the Marines in to flatten it.

[King of New York]

I don't see how withholding federal funds could be construed as censorship. It's not as though municipalities have a constitutional right to federal money. Retaliation, sure, but censorship?

[Anthony]

They're extremely lucky they aren't prosecuted for treason, really no sense getting greedy.

and this is the part when i remind myself not to bother engaging in debate with a kook. :mad:

[Drake]

Maybe the US should allow Berkley to make itself its own country and when it does send the Marines in to flatten it.

Okay, that made me laugh. Damn you, bsak!

My take is simple: it's a good rule of thumb that one should always avoid pissing off people with ready access to firearms and the training to use them.

[JonInMiddleGA]

and this is the part when i remind myself not to bother engaging in debate with a kook. :mad:

If engaging in public relations attacks on the United States military does not provide (psychological) aid and/or comfort to our enemies, I'll eat my fucking hat and yours too.

If you're too fucking stupid to understand that, there's not really anything I can do help you.

[Anthony]

If engaging in public relations attacks on the United States military does not provide (psychological) aid and/or comfort to our enemies, I'll eat my fucking hat and yours too.

If you're too fucking stupid to understand that, there's not really anything I can do help you.

and voting Democrat to remove the Republican (ie, Pro War) Administration validates the actions of our enemies. so what's your point?

free speech means you take the good with the bad. men have died so the public can prevent the government from going unchecked. you don't have to respect the message, but you have to respect the right for the person to express the message. what you want to advocate is the beginning of the govenment getting their foot in the door of censorship.

[JonInMiddleGA]

and voting Democrat to remove the Republican (ie, Pro War) Administration validates the actions of our enemies. so what's your point?

Read your first quoted sentence and see if you didn't just answer your own question.

free speech means you take the good with the bad.

Not when the speech is treasonous it doesn't, or rather, it shouldn't.

[JAG]

How does this even work? I'm trying to figure it out...but I just wind up holding notes for way too long.

I thought so too, then I tried this:

'Been working on the railroad': Dinah won't you blow? Dinah won't you blow? Dinah won't you blow your hor-or-orn?

'Time to end the war': Time to end the war. Time to end the war. Time to end the war right now-ow-ow.

[rkmsuf]

Bamp bamp bamp bamp ba nah nah nah bamp bamp bamp bamp ba nah nah nah

[Critch]

How does this even work? I'm trying to figure it out...but I just wind up holding notes for way too long.

"Time to end the war right now
Time to end the war
end the war
end the war
Time to end the war right now"

to the tune of "99 bottles of beer" works better.

[sachmo71]

Air Force > Marines

At scrabble and having the shiniest shoes.

[lordscarlet]

I didn't really read this thread, but I don't like recruiters.

[Calis]

I didn't really read this thread, but I don't like recruiters.

Yeah, stupid reasoning on Berkley's part and can't agree with that, but if they were trying to get rid of recruiters because they're douchebags, I'd be 100% behind them.

[duckman]

To the Berkeley City Council and Code Pink protesters:

You're Welcome.

Signed,

A U.S. Military Veteran (1997-2004)

[BishopMVP]

then it's not exactly free speech then. free speech is just what it is - a right that you have with no strings attached.To double up on JimGA, no, that's not what free speech is according to our Constitution.

[BishopMVP]

Yeah, stupid reasoning on Berkley's part and can't agree with that, but if they were trying to get rid of recruiters because they're douchebags, I'd be 100% behind them.Ehhh.... they aren't all douchebags. One of my friends just signed up for OCS after graduating college. It was hilarious seeing him walk in the door, saying he wanted to sign up for OCS, had a college degree and could easily pass the physical requirements, and the guy kept trying to talk him into signing up for enlisted instead (probably because that's where he needed his quota met.) After getting nowhere with this guy for a decent amount of time, we decided to leave but the other guy there called us over, closed his door, said don't listen to him and walked my friend through the process straight and honest. I've also talked to a number here at UMass, and while the majority have been chiefs, a couple seemed like decent guys.

[Calis]

Ehhh.... they aren't all douchebags. One of my friends just signed up for OCS after graduating college. It was hilarious seeing him walk in the door, saying he wanted to sign up for OCS, had a college degree and could easily pass the physical requirements, and the guy kept trying to talk him into signing up for enlisted instead (probably because that's where he needed his quota met.) After getting nowhere with this guy for a decent amount of time, we decided to leave but the other guy there called us over, closed his door, said don't listen to him and walked my friend through the process straight and honest. I've also talked to a number here at UMass, and while the majority have been chiefs, a couple seemed like decent guys.

Oh yeah, there are always a few that are decent guys, but the vast majority I ran across(and that was quite a few), were tools, and I hate the way they go about manipulating kids who are usually in pretty dire straits to begin with. I'm not sure my recruiter told me one single thing that was actually true, and the recruiters of the other services were even worse.

I'd feel sorry for them because they get a lot of pressure and crap thrown on them, but the majority that I saw enjoyed what they were doing, so no pity here. :)

[Rizon]

If there's ever been a place that should be bombed off the face of the earth, it's Bezerkley.

I couldn't agree more. It's currently a wasteland of useless flesh.

[Raiders Army]

Having had some of my soldiers become recruiters I feel a certain pity for them. You understand that the recruiters are not ultimately to blame for (most) of their methods? They are threatened by their commanders to "make mission" every month or they will be kicked out. Most of them are lifers and have hit the 10 year mark, so this is a pretty serious threat to them and their families.

If we had a draft that would solve the recruiter problems, the class problem of who's fighting this war, and the manning problems for the Army and Marines. It would also maybe make some of them men. ;)

[Toddzilla]

They're extremely lucky they aren't prosecuted for treason, really no sense getting greedy.Treason? Are you the Mayor of Berzerkely? That's even nuttier than those DFHs.

[Toddzilla]

If engaging in public relations attacks on the United States military does not provide (psychological) aid and/or comfort to our enemies, I'll eat my fucking hat and yours too.

If you're too fucking stupid to understand that, there's not really anything I can do help you.LOL! I'm sure the terrorists are watching CNN right now and hearing of the protests in Berkeley and are now determined "just that much more" to destroy our culture. After a hard day in the desert practicing suicide bombings, there's nothing like hearing an American speak out against the war to really take the edge off.

You, sir, are fucking insane.

[Toddzilla]

And finally, what brain-dead moron thought it would be a good idea, much less a productive one, to go to Bezerkley to try and find kids willing to ship off to war? Now *thats* crazy.

[Rizon]

And finally, what brain-dead moron thought it would be a good idea, much less a productive one, to go to Bezerkley to try and find kids willing to ship off to war? Now *thats* crazy.

You honestly have no idea what kind of damage an 18 year old can do with a bong. Plus terrorists hate emo music.

[Calis]

Having had some of my soldiers become recruiters I feel a certain pity for them. You understand that the recruiters are not ultimately to blame for (most) of their methods? They are threatened by their commanders to "make mission" every month or they will be kicked out. Most of them are lifers and have hit the 10 year mark, so this is a pretty serious threat to them and their families.

If we had a draft that would solve the recruiter problems, the class problem of who's fighting this war, and the manning problems for the Army and Marines. It would also maybe make some of them men. ;)

Oh yeah, definitely not only their fault..it's the system as a whole. That's a rough job to be a non-volunteer for also, I can't imagine. It's just a bad situation, when my commander was on my ass, I had to work shitty hours and bust my ass..when the recruiter does they do both those things plus(some of them) lie out their asses and manipulate kids. It's an ugly job, and I'm glad I never had to do it. :)

Anyway, probably a bit harsh. Sorry, just personal issues I had dealing with recruiters, soured me on them for life.

[Raiders Army]

Oh yeah, definitely not only their fault..it's the system as a whole. That's a rough job to be a non-volunteer for also, I can't imagine. It's just a bad situation, when my commander was on my ass, I had to work shitty hours and bust my ass..when the recruiter does they do both those things plus(some of them) lie out their asses and manipulate kids. It's an ugly job, and I'm glad I never had to do it. :)

Anyway, probably a bit harsh. Sorry, just personal issues I had dealing with recruiters, soured me on them for life.

No biggie. I just wonder how what civilians would do in order to keep their job and retirement. Would they lie? Would they manipulate people?

I'd like to say that I would have the courage and convictions to do what was right, but if it concerned the well-being of my family I'm not sure what I'd do.

[JeffNights]

If engaging in public relations attacks on the United States military does not provide (psychological) aid and/or comfort to our enemies, I'll eat my fucking hat and yours too.

If you're too fucking stupid to understand that, there's not really anything I can do help you.


BAM, thats right eat it bitches.


HOOO--AHHH!!!!!

[Buccaneer]

Berkeley has every right to enact such rules, all the power to them. They should also be prepared to accept the postive and negative consequences. You see how the federal govt works by extortion and proposing unconstitutional legislation. But some of you are falling over yourself to encourage more of that.

[flere-imsaho]

If there's ever been a place that should be bombed off the face of the earth, it's Bezerkley.

Really? I would have thought you'd have picked Tehran or something.

then it's not exactly free speech then. free speech is just what it is - a right that you have with no strings attached.

that's like your neighbor telling you you're free to bang his hot wife all you want, but if you do it he's gonna shit in your mailbox and shove your own penis up your anus.

that's not exactly a great deal.

I've heard a lot of defenses of the First Amendment, but I think this is the best ever.


On the recruiters front, I think the "problem" is that a lot of them are forced into a salesman role without necessarily being suited for it and, as RA pointed out, get a lot of pressure placed on top of what is already a pretty pressure-filled role.

I mean, most salespeople are under serious pressure to perform. If they don't, they can get canned. However, most salespeople can shift companies or even industries pretty easily. That's not a luxury these guys have, and plus, as RA pointed out, they've got a lot more invested. On top of that, unlike most salespeople, recruiters are potentially signing up men and women to fight and die for their country.

So I'm not surprised that there are problems. One of the many, many reasons I'm for a draft.

[st.cronin]

I've known recruiters everywhere I've lived, and I've never thought any of them were tools. They always seem like decent, patriotic, well-respected folks.

[flounder]

Really? I would have thought you'd have picked Tehran or something.


Tehran has a lot of hot chicks.

[Dutch]

Personally, I say we draft those little Berkley bitches. :)

[Chief Rum]

then it's not exactly free speech then. free speech is just what it is - a right that you have with no strings attached.

Free speech is not absolute (famous "yelling FIRE in a crowded theater" example), and Congress has the power to allocate funds where it desires--a right accorded to it by the Constitution. It may not be a celebrated "freedom", but it is currently Constitutionall-protected as well.

All that said, I generally agree it is against the spirit of the Bill of Rights to vote money away from Berkeley for them taking this stance, and think the lawmakers are being too careless in setting (or furthering) any precedent like this which limits freedom of speech.

[Chief Rum]

i'm going to assume that is a female.


i shudder to think if that thing is married. that would mean someone is actually legally obligated to fornicate with her - and only her - for the rest of his life. ooof.

He could always choose chastity.

And besides, she is in an anti-war group protesting in Berkeley! She's likely a "free love" type, so her husband is free to dabble and say he's doing ti for the principle of the thing--"but I still only love you, honey!" :)

[Chief Rum]

If we had a draft that would solve the recruiter problems, the class problem of who's fighting this war, and the manning problems for the Army and Marines.

Until I read this, I thought only the Patriots had a manning problem.

[Shkspr]

Until I read this, I thought only the Patriots had a manning problem.

Oh, so now you don't consider the Army and Marines patriots? You one of them lefties, too? ;)

[Brian Swartz]

This is flabbergasting. After reading this thread for a moment I thought maybe I'd misread the First Amendment. Whaddya know, I go back and read it and it says exactly what I thought it did.

"Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press ... "

Hrm. Seems pretty simple to me. Withholding funding is not the same as criminalizing certain speech. It is not censorship. And there is really no such thing as an absolute right. As the saying goes, your liberty stops at the end of my nose.

For one obvious example of many, Ezra Pound's treasonous radio broadcasts during WWII. If you take the absolutist view of freedom of speech being argued for here, you cannot believe that such treasonous speech can ever be punished regardless of the circumstances, because 'everybody has a right to say whatever they want.'

No, the First Amendment protects speech that is merely critical or unpopular. Nobody has said Berkeley CANNOT make statements such as they have, that they will be imprisoned if they do, etc. There's a huge difference between that and how much of other people's money Congress deigns to grant them.

[mrsimperless]

So did the people that wrote our constitution intend for our federal leaders to have this power of withholding funds? My gut tells me no or they would have formalized that power in some other way. To me this smells like an abuse of power which should be checked. (The federal funding for the national drinking age was another great example of this.)

That being said these people protesting obviously ARE retreaded. Even if you are against the war the armed forces aren't your enemy you asshats.

And I understand the stances people have on recruiters. No different from salespeople really. I appreciate what they do for me but I don't think I could ever do their job. I couldn't ever take enough showers to wash all the filth off of my body.

[sterlingice]

Until I read this, I thought only the Patriots had a manning problem.Oh, so now you don't consider the Army and Marines patriots? You one of them lefties, too? ;)

Beautifully played, you two :)

SI

[RendeR]

Most of you know I am a Navy Veteran of the first Gulf War. There are a lot of points in this thread worth noting:

1: Jon is still an ignorant tool. I've been impressed with him recently though, he hasn't spouted anything quite this stupid in a real long time.

2: berkely has every right to decide what businesses are and are not allowed within their city limits, Recruiting offices are businesses, plain and simple.

3: The protesters ARE stupid, they're fucking things up just as badly as a lot of the hippie protests of vietnam did. You'd THINK they'd have learned from that heritage, being from berkely and all.

4: Thank you bucc for bringing some rational thought to this thread.

5: Recruiting is indeed a broken system, but a draft is NOT the answer to this. While I might honestly believe every 18 yr old shoul serve 2 years in the military, I am not idiot enough to ever think it should actually be enacted. MY beliefs work great for ME and me alone, Everyone is entitled to their own lives.

6. Lastly, the government has every right to with-hold the funds, its what they do.

7. Ok REALLYthe last thing, Free speech is NOT without strings attached, everyone has the right to say and DO anything they choose, but everyone must ALWAYS be prepared to face whatever consequences those words or actions bring down upon them. Wether or not the actions are legal or not is for a court to decide AFTER the fact.

[RainMaker]

They're extremely lucky they aren't prosecuted for treason, really no sense getting greedy.

How is having the elected local leaders decide on a policy a form of treason? They simply voted to not allow the Marines to recruit on that campus. If the people of that area don't like their decision, they can vote them out at the next election. Isn't this a part of that whole "democracy" thing you want to bring to the Middle East?

I'd also read up on what treason is. You clearly have no fucking clue. Your comment on wanting to bomb tens of thousands of innocent college students over a city council vote they had nothing to do with reaks of treason moreso than what the city council did.

And I actually think the city council decision is dumb. I think that students should be able to make up their own mind as to whether they want to join the military or not. But I don't live there, I don't vote on them, so my opinion should mean shit to them. They should do what the people of that region want (the whole point of democracy, remember?). David Vitter should worry more about his problem with fucking prostitutes while wearing diapers. And you should seek mental health, you sound like a sociopath.

[RainMaker]

5: Recruiting is indeed a broken system, but a draft is NOT the answer to this. While I might honestly believe every 18 yr old shoul serve 2 years in the military, I am not idiot enough to ever think it should actually be enacted. MY beliefs work great for ME and me alone, Everyone is entitled to their own lives.

But wouldn't a draft make our government a little more careful with what wars they choose to fight? If your Congressman had kids or grandkids that would be eligible to fight, would they not be sure on their vote?

I think right now the system is horribly flawed. Recruiting has turned into taking advantage of the poor and desperate. Sure there are a lot of people who sign up to fight because they believe in it, but there are a lot of others who do it because they have no choice. Our government treats these soldiers like cannon fodder and don't give a shit what happens to them. Just look at how we treat them when they come back injured. They are thrown in a rat infested hospital and forgotten.

I guess my biggest problem is with the chickenhawks out there. I hate these pro-war guys who were either too pussy to fight in Vietnam (pretty much the entire Bush administration and conservative talking head) or are sending other people's kids off to war. If the war was more personal, if everyones body was treated equally, I think our decisions would be made much more carefully and we wouldn't be walking into wars unprepared.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Isn't this a part of that whole "democracy" thing you want to bring to the Middle East?

You've obviously got me confused with someone else.

I have no illusions about whether most of the Middle East will ever be capable of governing themselves, and certainly not via a democracy.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Really? I would have thought you'd have picked Tehran or something.

I didn't know there was a limit of one per customer.

[RainMaker]

You've obviously got me confused with someone else.

I have no illusions about whether most of the Middle East will ever be capable of governing themselves, and certainly not via a democracy.
Then why are we in Iraq?

[Glengoyne]

On the free speech bit of this thread. HA is wrong that just because speech is free doesn't mean that there aren't consequences. See anyone who has been sued for stating their opinion, or simply stating the facts as they believe them to be.

With regard to Berkely. I don't think this is as much about free speech, as it is about the local government there toying with interfering with the Federal government. If you engage in that sort of behavior and don't believe that there might be consequences, then you probably haven't thought your position all of the way through.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Then why are we in Iraq?

Killing terrorists, future terrorists, and other assorted vermin.

You don't really think anybody with even the slightest clue buys the whole "bringing them democracy" bullshit do you? That's p.r. for the simple minded (and for the few who do actually think that has anything do with it and are being genuine when they say it, p.r. by the simple minded).

[RainMaker]

Killing terrorists, future terrorists, and other assorted vermin.

You don't really think anybody with even the slightest clue buys the whole "bringing them democracy" bullshit do you? That's p.r. for the simple minded (and for the few who do actually think that has anything do with it and are being genuine when they say it, p.r. by the simple minded).
Well the terrorists seem to be born in Saudi Arabia and hang out in parts of Pakistan and Syria. Again, what does that have to do with Iraq?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well the terrorists seem to be born in Saudi Arabia and hang out in parts of Pakistan and Syria. Again, what does that have to do with Iraq?

Are you this stupid in person, or are you just roleplaying here?

[Glengoyne]

Then why are we in Iraq?

As far as I'm concerned because it was the right thing to do to shut down Saddam and prevent him from thumbing his nose at the rest of the world and doing whatever he damn well pleased. The fact that Rumsfeld, Bush, and a slew of other folks screwed up the assessment and then the execution of the affair being set aside of course.

[RainMaker]

Are you this stupid in person, or are you just roleplaying here?
I'm going off the data provided by every major intelligence community in the world (including our own). The terrorists weren't in Iraq. The 9/11 hijackers were all born in Saudi Arabia. Trained in Afghanistan by people who are now hiding out in Pakistan.

Again, explain to me what Iraq has to do with this?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Again, explain to me what Iraq has to do with this?

Real slow, so you can follow it ... what is the predominant religion in Iraq?

[RainMaker]

Real slow, so you can follow it ... what is the predominant religion in Iraq?
So it's about killing brown people who pray to Allah? There are a lot of them in this country too.

[JonInMiddleGA]

So it's about killing brown people who pray to Allah? There are a lot of them in this country too.

And that will have to eventually be dealt with as well.

[Glengoyne]

So it's about killing brown people who pray to Allah? There are a lot of them in this country too.

Have you met Jon?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Have you met Jon?

Apparently not ;)

And it would doubtless been better for everyone involved if that had remained the case.

[RainMaker]

And that will have to eventually be dealt with as well.
Gas chambers or just concentration camps? Do you think there are any leftover in Europe from WW2 that we can use?

[RainMaker]

Have you met Jon?
Not really. Is he the board's uneducated, sociopath racist?

[Groundhog]

Gas chambers or just concentration camps? Do you think there are any leftover in Europe from WW2 that we can use?

No need for all the hoopla. A rifle and a couple of (thousand) rounds oughta do. :rolleyes:

[Karlifornia]

Not really. Is he the board's uneducated, sociopath racist?

I have no knowledge of his education.;)

[Groundhog]

I have no knowledge of his education.;)

:D

[flere-imsaho]

I didn't know there was a limit of one per customer.

Sorry, I read your original post as "if there was one place" as opposed to "if there was ever a place".

Just for fun, could you list, by preference, the places you'd like to see bombed off the face of the earth? ;)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just for fun, could you list, by preference, the places you'd like to see bombed off the face of the earth? ;)

Isn't there like some sort of maximum post length here though?

Besides, I guess "off the face of the earth" is really misleading.
I'm really more of a neutron bomb fan to be accurate about it.

[flere-imsaho]

Not really. Is he the board's uneducated, sociopath racist?

If Jon was being honest, I'd think he's admit to effectively being a xenophobic totalitarian. I'm pretty sure he's posted at least once about being very much in favor of top-down government control structures (i.e. totalitarianism). Others have called Jon a fascist, but unless I'm mistaken in my assessment of him, he doesn't really think exactly along the lines of a fascist.

Though you probably are a bit of a sociopath, Jon. At the very least a pretty curmudgeonly misanthrope.

[flere-imsaho]

Isn't there like some sort of maximum post length here though?

Top 10, then. I'm genuinely interested. :)

Besides, I guess "off the face of the earth" is really misleading.
I'm really more of a neutron bomb fan to be accurate about it.

Details, details. You're stalling. :p

[JonInMiddleGA]

Though you probably are a bit of a sociopath, though, Jon.

A bit? I'm crushed ;)

Oddly enough though, I didn't realize that the term "sociopath" was no longer used medically, having been replaced by "antisocial personality disorder".

And apparently I don't really fit enough of the characteristics of that diagnosis for it to apply either. So I tried "megalomania", but that doesn't work either since I don't have illusions about my ability to implement my plans at the moment.

Great, thanks to you I've realized that I'm currently a man without a label.

For this, all of your base must belong to me now.

[flere-imsaho]

OK, I take it back. The "classic" definition of fascism is simply an authortarian system of government which considers the individual subordinate to the state. Based on previous posts, maybe Jon believes in that. However, fascism is also usually characterized by a) the state being defined by an individual race, religion or creed and b) nationalization of industries, which I'm not inclined to believe are high on Jon's list or priorities.

I suppose now I should go ahead and let Jon categorize me. I'm anticipating "left-wing wacko hippie". :D

[flere-imsaho]

Great, thanks to you I've realized that I'm currently a man without a label.

Hey, I gave you "Curmudgeonly Misanthrope". That's a pretty sweet descriptor, I think. ;)

For this, all of your base must belong to me now.

As an anti-materialist socialist wacko hippie I have to tell you that having "my base" isn't going to be much of a net gain for you. :D

[sterlingice]

I suppose now I should go ahead and let Jon categorize me. I'm anticipating "left-wing wacko hippie". :D

Yeah, but you do draw some mean stick figures ;)

SI

[Toddzilla]

Apparently not ;)

And it would doubtless been better for everyone involved if that had remained the case.Based on this thread and the ugly, racist turn you took it, I wish I could say the same for myself as well.

[Toddzilla]

I have no knowledge of his education.;)POST OF THE CENTURY

[Toddzilla]

If Jon was being honest, I'd think he's admit to effectively being a xenophobic totalitarian. I'm pretty sure he's posted at least once about being very much in favor of top-down government control structures (i.e. totalitarianism). Others have called Jon a fascist, but unless I'm mistaken in my assessment of him, he doesn't really think exactly along the lines of a fascist.

Though you probably are a bit of a sociopath, Jon. At the very least a pretty curmudgeonly misanthrope.You forgot racist - definitely racist.

[JonInMiddleGA]

You forgot racist - definitely racist.

Screw you lefty.

It's about behaviors & attitudes, I give less than a damn whether you're white, black, blue, green, or have little pink & purples polky dots.

[Groundhog]

Screw you lefty.

It's about behaviors & attitudes, I give less than a damn whether you're white, black, blue, green, or have little pink & purples polky dots.

OK, then how about those normal, everyday folks in those countries you want to erase from the face of the earth?

Wait a sec, why am I even bothering?

[Raiders Army]

Based on this thread and the ugly, racist turn you took it, I wish I could say the same for myself as well.

Please stop. Jon said nothing that was racist. RainMaker was the one who brought up race.

Real slow, so you can follow it ... what is the predominant religion in Iraq?

So it's about killing brown people who pray to Allah? There are a lot of them in this country too.

[Rizon]

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

[JonInMiddleGA]

OK, then how about those normal, everyday folks in those countries you want to erase from the face of the earth?

There are always degrees of collateral damage.

[JPhillips]

Jon favors killing people who download music. The list of people he'd happy wish dead has to be in the billions. The fact that Iraqis are on that last shouldn't be surprising.

[RendeR]

Its easier to count the people who he wouldn't kill, that would be those who think and act as he does, which means the planets population would be countable by maybe half a dozen 3 toed sloths.....

[RainMaker]

Please stop. Jon said nothing that was racist. RainMaker was the one who brought up race.
Advocating the genocide of a race of people isn't a tad bit racist?

[Raiders Army]

Advocating the genocide of a race of people isn't a tad bit racist?

What race did he speak of? Obviously I've missed it. The only reference that I saw to race was yours, talking about brown people.

[Groundhog]

What race did he speak of? Obviously I've missed it. The only reference that I saw to race was yours, talking about brown people.

I don't think he's racist so to speak, more like religion-ist. Wanting people to die because they are a different religion to your own isn't any better than racism. It's pretty much the same thing. Hell, IMO it's even worse.

[RainMaker]

What race did he speak of? Obviously I've missed it. The only reference that I saw to race was yours, talking about brown people.
Sorry if race is not the right term. Ethnicity, religous affiliation, whatever you want to classify it as.

[Toddzilla]

Is it too late to say "This won't end well?"

[Toddzilla]

Screw you lefty.

It's about behaviors & attitudes, I give less than a damn whether you're white, black, blue, green, or have little pink & purples polky dots.So of the million or so Iraqi casualties, wherer 900,000+ of them were innocent civilians only trying live their own lives and not bother anybody. What about their behaviors and attitudes meant they deserve to die in your eyes?

Oh yeah! The color of their skin and the god they pray to.

So what about that doesn't make you a racist, simple and plain?

EDIT: almost forgot...Screw you too, Grand Wizard.

[Anthony]

you are wasting your time debating with Jon. he's a kook. if you must address or reply to him in a post, do so in the same manner you would address a clown - not taking them seriously and expecting them to do something outlandish for outlandish sakes.

Jon is a poorly drawn cartoon.

[Subby]

I take Jon plenty seriously and I don't think anything he says is an act. He's also outside of the mainstream to a pretty large degree, so I have hard time getting too worked about anything he says.

[Anthony]

He's also outside of the mainstream to a pretty large degree

as are loony people who are detached from reality.

so I have hard time getting too worked about anything he says

again, if you think of him as a clown, as i do, then you don't get worked up over anything he says any more than you do when a clown asks you to sniff his flower and you get a squirt of water in your face. it's all for entertainment.

[Anthony]

btw, Jon, i illegally download music as well as download movies via torrent. suck on that!


but for the record, i don't have a prob with Jon. i respect his consistency and he's a straight shooter. not too many people like that left. i don't have a prob cuz i refuse to get sucked into his world of lunacy.

[lungs]

It always makes me feel good to know, that when Jon talks all this crazy shit, none if it is ever going to happen and it makes him miserable as hell.

As mostly a lurker, he's definitely one of the people that keeps me reading here. Kinda like I read some Ann Coulter once in a while to get a good laugh, knowing full well that people like that should probably be taken to the wall and put out of their misery. But we're better than that :)

[Anthony]

Kinda like I read some Ann Coulter once in a while to get a good laugh, knowing full well that people like that should probably be taken to the wall and put out of their misery.


yeah, but at least Ann Coulter has great legs.

[lungs]

yeah, but at least Ann Coulter has great legs.

Ugh. That doesn't make up for the rest of her. I find her to be completely disgusting, and that has nothing to do with her views.

[Honolulu_Blue]

yeah, but at least Ann Coulter has great legs.

You think those long, weird skinny chicken legs are "great"? This totally brings into question that "fake" story of yours about those two strippers. Get it together, Anthony.

Oh, and, btw, have you ever seen Jon's legs?

[rkmsuf]

You think those long, weird skinny chicken legs are "great"? This totally brings into question that "fake" story of yours about those two strippers. Get it together, Anthony.

Oh, and, btw, have you ever seen Jon's legs?

Man, you ain't kidding. Ann Coulter, great legs? What next, Rosie O'Donnell great abs?

[Subby]

plus she looks like a kneecap with hair

[SFL Cat]

This thread has gone a wanderin'.

[Anthony]

yes, indeed, she is a vile beast of a woman.

http://www.morethings.com/images/ann_coulter/jAnnCoulterMmmm.jpg

[Dutch]

I'm going off the data provided by every major intelligence community in the world (including our own). The terrorists weren't in Iraq. The 9/11 hijackers were all born in Saudi Arabia. Trained in Afghanistan by people who are now hiding out in Pakistan.

Again, explain to me what Iraq has to do with this?

So Obama/Clinton are going to invade Saudi Arabia and Pakistan?

[Dr. Sak]

She has the longest arms i have ever seen on a woman

[rkmsuf]

The graveyard is two blocks down.

She's great for reaching those canned goods way up on shelves though.

[Anthony]

She has the longest arms i have ever seen on a woman

when you're givign them a good rogering from behind, it's great to have a woman with arms long enough to reach down below and give your veggies a little "how's your father?".


and my point was if you're gonna compare Jon to Ann Coulter, at least Coulter has *some* redeeming qualities. hey, they all can't be 10's.

[Honolulu_Blue]

when you're givign them a good rogering from behind, it's great to have a woman with arms long enough to reach down below and give your veggies a little "how's your father?".

This statement directly conflicts with your midget fetish.

[Critch]

yeah, but at least Ann Coulter has great legs.

All the way from the floor to her balls.

[rkmsuf]

All the way from the floor to her veggies.


fixed

[Pumpy Tudors]

insert stupid pumpy joke about ann coulter here and then insert a dozen people on the board laughing at it

[Anthony]

hey, let's not turn this into Hell Atlantic thinks Ann Coulter is hot. i'm just saying for however old she is (mid-40s?) those things are still holding up rather well. but yeah, she is rather "long". i would imagine she has a really flat, waspy ass. soccer-momish flat if pressed for a term.


let's hear it pumpy. what you got?

[Dr. Sak]

With saggy lips...not the ones on her face...

[cartman]

Two words:

Man hands

[Dr. Sak]

Two words:

Man hands

Grandpa hands!

[Pumpy Tudors]

hey, let's not turn this into Hell Atlantic thinks Ann Coulter is hot. i'm just saying for however old she is (mid-40s?) those things are still holding up rather well. but yeah, she is rather "long". i would imagine she has a really flat, waspy ass. soccer-momish flat if pressed for a term.


let's hear it pumpy. what you got?
I can't top that, brother.

[rkmsuf]

I can't top that, brother.

Man, I thought you'd go with the story of the time you were banging barbara bush up against the air conditioner at the coal mine and yelled out "Oh Ann!" by mistake. I found that one hilarious.

[Anthony]

With saggy lips...not the ones on her face...

stop it. stop it right now. i refuse to acknowledge you if you're gonna say if you met her in a bar, the both of you with a drink or three in your system, and she showed interest in your boring engineer life where the highlight was you bumping into Natalie Portman, you're gonna not have a romp in the sack?

this is what you're telling me?


let's calm down. let's take her for what she's worth. she's a long and lean woman of the MILF variety. if you were a single dad and you bumped into her at a PTA meeting, you'd ask her out for iced frappacino and take it from there.

jeezus christ people, they don't get hotter as they get older. this isn't wine. i bet she dabbles some pretty expensive perfume in her go-go spots. then you'd go "my God, what is that alluring scent?" and she'd be all "oh, just a little bottle of someting i picked up at some dainty little shoppe in Paris." and then you'd go "Paris, you don't say...what was it like?" and then a bottle of wine or two later, maybe some baguette and sweet butter later you're both doing the thing that comes so naturally to a man and a woman.

let's cut this charade out. ok, she's not Jessica Alba, but let's kick the actual factuals.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Man, I thought you'd go with the story of the time you were banging barbara bush up against the air conditioner at the coal mine and yelled out "Oh Ann!" by mistake. I found that one hilarious.
I'm shocked that you didn't get some form of the word "plow" in there.

[Pumpy Tudors]

stop it. stop it right now. i refuse to acknowledge you if you're gonna say if you met her in a bar, the both of you with a drink or three in your system, and she showed interest in your boring engineer life where the highlight was you bumping into Natalie Portman, you're gonna not have a romp in the sack?

this is what you're telling me?


let's calm down. let's take her for what she's worth. she's a long and lean woman of the MILF variety. if you were a single dad and you bumped into her at a PTA meeting, you'd ask her out for iced frappacino and take it from there.

jeezus christ people, they don't get hotter as they get older. this isn't wine. i bet she dabbles some pretty expensive perfume in her go-go spots. then you'd go "my God, what is that alluring scent?" and she'd be all "oh, just a little bottle of someting i picked up at some dainty little shoppe in Paris." and then you'd go "Paris, you don't say...what was it like?" and then a bottle of wine or two later, maybe some baguette and sweet butter later you're both doing the thing that comes so naturally to a man and a woman.

let's cut this charade out. ok, she's not Jessica Alba, but let's kick the actual factuals.
Well, yeah, all of this, and SHE LOOKS LIKE A FUCKING MAN.

[cartman]

She's not simply aging, she is dessicating from the extremities in. In about six months her whole arm will look like it does from the forearms down.

[Dr. Sak]

It would take quite a few drinks but I will never say never. I like them tall...that way they can wrap their legs around you and squeeze. Plus it sucks being tall and screwing a short chick...that limits the positions

[rkmsuf]

Ever take some E and end up fucking a bicycle?

[Pumpy Tudors]

It would take quite a few drinks but I will never say never. I like them tall...that way they can wrap their legs around you and squeeze. Plus it sucks being tall and screwing a short chick...that limits the positions
Well, hey, she could at least wrap her arms around you... and your family... and a tree... and a Volkswagen Bug... and the Library of Congress... and Easter Island...

[dawgfan]

Well, yeah, all of this, and SHE LOOKS LIKE A FUCKING MAN.
Wait a minute - Ann Coulter isn't a tranny?

[rkmsuf]

Ok, let's narrow this down.


Ann Coulter or Natalie from The Facts of Life?

[Anthony]

Ok, let's narrow this down.


Ann Coulter or Natalie from The Facts of Life?

ok, was Natalie the really fat one?

and is it Facts of Life era Natalie, or what the actress who played Natalie looks like now?

if its young Natalie, then i choose her. if it's current day Natalie, i choose Coulter. no question.


although, if the actress who played Natalie hasn't appeard on Celebrity Fit Club, that probably means she's not completely a waste.

[rkmsuf]

ok, was Natalie the really fat one?

and is it Facts of Life Natalie, or what the actress who played Natalie looks like now?

if its young Natalie, then i choose her. if it's current day Natalie, i choose Coulter. no question.

I guess young natalie. Which is the fat one on facts of life. So you'd take her over Coulter?

Seems to clash with the MILF, perfume on my crotch theory.

[Anthony]

youth trumps old

old trumps old and fat.


those are the rules. young and chunky will beat out middle aged and slender.

[rkmsuf]

Ok, how about


forcibly taking Ellen vs Coulter missionary

[Anthony]

Ok, how about


forcibly taking Ellen vs Coulter missionary

damn you, you're wily.


i select forcibly taking Ellen. aaargh. now i have to create an addendum to the rules.



but don't think i'm going easy on Ellen. ohhhh no. i swear it, on the honor of my ancestors - she will pay. i'm gonna make her feel so disgusted to be in her own skin.


and again, i damn you for making me choose this.

[rkmsuf]

That's a pretty good answer. I like your style.

[Phototropic]

http://www.overspun.com/images/Coulter.Alien.jpg

[Dr. Sak]

we need to start another f...marry...kill thread

[Pumpy Tudors]

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/3554/skeletorcartoonxw5.jpg

[Anthony]

http://www.overspun.com/images/Coulter.Alien.jpg

pteradactyl hands aside, she looks really hot in that pic. that must be an early pic. you're going to say you wouldn't fornicate with a woman who looked like that based off of the size of her hands?


maybe she just has really really small fingers, maybe that makes the rest of her hands look big.

[rkmsuf]

pteradactyl hands aside, she looks really hot in that pic. that must be an early pic. you're going to say you wouldn't fornicate with a woman who looked like that based off of the size of her hands?

keep in mind if she gives you a hand job that you weiner will look like a fishstick

[lungs]

To me, she looks like a concentration camp survivor in that picture.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Jeez, that picture makes me want to donate 30 cents a day to her just to keep the flies off her eyeballs.

[Honolulu_Blue]

All the way from the floor to her balls.

Two words:

Man hands

Grandpa hands!

Well, yeah, all of this, and SHE LOOKS LIKE A FUCKING MAN.

She's a MAN, baby!!

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/c/c/coulter_adamsapple.jpg

[Anthony]

she looks healthy! she looks like she'd be game for an impromptu tennis match. she looks like she could go for a good hour in some hot wasp sex. she looks like she has the strength and vigor of the original New World settlers. they were hearty people, those pilgrims. she's got the steely gaze of a New England woman of privilege. i could see myself with her in a good, healthy american romp in a wintery chateau by a wild fire.

hands? that's all you got? c'mon, that's a really nice pic of her, better than i thought she was capable of.

[Dr. Sak]

oh my god i just realized that the girl i am dating looks like her...i need to go delouse myself.

[Honolulu_Blue]

she looks healthy! she looks like she'd be game for an impromptu tennis match. she looks like she could go for a good hour in some hot wasp sex. she looks like she has the strength and vigor of the original New World settlers. they were hearty people, those pilgrims. she's got the steely gaze of a New England woman of privilege. i could see myself with her in a good, healthy american romp in a wintery chateau by a wild fire.

hands? that's all you got? c'mon, that's a really nice pic of her, better than i thought she was capable of.

Man hands + Adam's apple + Looking like a concentration camp survivor.

Is that not enough?

[rkmsuf]

Man hands + Adam's apple + Looking like a concentration camp survivor.

Is that not enough?

not if she plays with your veggies

[Mustang]

Women with large hands make my junk look small.

Small hands are where it's at.

[Greyroofoo]

Toledo wants in on dissing marines too. (http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080210/NEWS16/802100347/-1/NEWS)

Finkbeiner taking flak over Marines
Mayor defends his decision to cancel urban war games

By JC REINDL
BLADE STAFF WRITER

They were gone but not forgotten.

A day after Mayor Carty Finkbeiner ordered 200 Marine Corps Reservists out of downtown Toledo, residents here and elsewhere expressed disappointment, disbelief, and even outrage.

His last-minute call Friday resulted in the unit canceling its planned training exercises and returning to Grand Rapids, Mich.

And by yesterday afternoon, the mayor's reaction had become a national news story picked up by Internet blogs along with the popular Web site, The Drudge Report. Media phone lines and e-mail boxes kept busy as keyboard-tapping critics sounded their opinions on what some have billed the "Carty vs. Marines" controversy.

Some compared the flap to the one Mr. Finkbeiner set off during his first term in 1994, with his proposal that the city move its deaf population to land near Toledo Express Airport.

"It makes Toledo look like a national disgrace," said Steve Baxter, 47, of Columbus, who learned of the ordeal through a national political blog. "And it reflects poorly on your mayor."

Former Marine Brian Thompson, 40, of West Toledo said he was in disbelief when he first picked up the newspaper. Soon his feelings turned to anger.

"My perception now is that Carty feels it is OK for Marines to die in Iraq, but just don't come to Toledo," said the 13-year Marine Corps veteran. "The better trained the men and women are, the better chances that they'll come home alive."

In response to his critics, Mayor Finkbeiner declared his absolute support for the Marines Corps as well as all of the nation's armed forces - yet still defended his decision to send the Marines packing.

"No matter how much I respect, love, and appreciate the military, there are better places to conduct military planning and staging sessions than the central business district," Mayor Finkbeiner told The Blade. "I think the military brass would understand and appreciate that."

On Friday, a five-bus convoy carrying about 200 members of Company A, 1st Battalion, 24th Marines of Grand Rapids, was just minutes from Toledo. A city employee informed a unit leader that the mayor opposed their plans for another three-day urban patrol exercise on downtown streets, working from the Madison Building, a mostly vacant structure that is city-owned.

Some Toledo police officials had been aware of the Marines' training plans for weeks. The mayor said that he did not learn of them until reading a news item in Friday's Blade.

Mayor Finkbeiner, a Democrat, said yesterday that he ordered the Marines out because he did not want a repeat of the last time the Marines' battalion trained downtown in May, 2006.

"I saw the military with guns drawn emulating warfare, and I observed the expressions of citizens who happened to just be coming down the sidewalk that particular Saturday noon in wonderment, asking, 'What have I found myself in the middle of?'•" the mayor said. "There was a look of wonderment on some people's faces, and there was a look of fear on other people's faces."

While glancing about a downtown nearly empty of people yesterday afternoon, Douglas Finch, Sr., 55, of West Toledo, said he found the mayor's concerns unbelievable.

Mr. Finch recalled witnessing the camouflaged and rifle-bearing Marines in downtown two years ago. He said the sight was attention-grabbing, not scary.

"We have enough empty buildings here, so why not let them train in one?" he asked.

At VFW Post 2510 in East Toledo, men and women gathered around glasses of beer as they discussed whether their mayor acted appropriately. Their verdict was a unanimous no.

Dwight Griffin, 68, a former Army National Guardsmen, said the Marines became the unwitting scapegoat for whomever failed to keep Mayor Finkbeiner informed.

"Somebody dropped a memo and the Marines got caught in the middle," Mr. Griffin said.

City Councilman Frank Szollosi said he was "dismayed" by the mayor's actions. He said he would support organizing a council-led apology next week to the Marines on behalf of the city.

Mr. Szollosi likened Toledo's present image to that of Berkeley, Calif., where City Council passed a measure urging Marine recruiters to leave a downtown office, citing the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy.

After some California lawmakers threatened to cut $2 million in federal funding to that California city and its university campus, Berkeley's mayor apologized to U.S. servicemen.

"This might be a situation where the City Council has to apologize for the mayor's actions," said Mr. Szollosi, a Democrat. "I would certainly hope that the city of Toledo's federal funding is not put in jeopardy."

Among the few office workers downtown yesterday was Bob Gardner, an owner of the Miller, Gardner and Co. accounting firm, 500 Madison Avenue. Mr. Gardner said he and other employees witnessed the Marines 2006 visit, and recalled seeing camouflaged figures firing blank ammunition rounds.

"It scared the heck out of us, until we knew what was going on," Mr. Gardner said.

Mr. Gardner, however, said he doesn't oppose the Marines returning downtown. Prior notice is good for residents who would be caught in their mock crossfire. This year we were aware of [the exercise], and it wouldn't have bothered me one way or the other," he said.

Mayor Finkbeiner said if there is one major regret of this ordeal, it is the lack of communication to his office.

The mayor said if he had known of the Marines plans ahead of time, he could have arranged for the city to open the vacant North Towne Square mall or the former Jones Junior High School for their training.

Oh, and Carty Finkbeiner's Wikipedia page has already been updated

[Phototropic]

pteradactyl hands aside, she looks really hot in that pic. that must be an early pic. you're going to say you wouldn't fornicate with a woman who looked like that based off of the size of her hands?


maybe she just has really really small fingers, maybe that makes the rest of her hands look big.
No I agree with you based on that pic. It must be from a while back.

[Groundhog]

Grey, can you please not take this thread off-topic!

[JeeberD]

No shit! What does the Marines have to do with chicks with huge hands?

[Calis]

I really didn't think this thread had any chance of being saved, but I was wrong.

Fine work gentlemen.

[Groundhog]

I really didn't think this thread had any chance of being saved, but I was wrong.

Fine work gentlemen.

Agreed.

[Toddzilla]

Oh, and, btw, have you ever seen Jon's legs?Nope - always been covered by the sheet.

*rim shot*

[flere-imsaho]

Two words:

Man hands

++

[Anthony]

She has the longest arms i have ever seen on a woman

ok, not for nothing, i took a second look at that 1st pic i posted of her, and jeezus those things are friggin long. i still think she probably smells good.

[GrantDawg]

she looks healthy! she looks like she'd be game for an impromptu tennis match. she looks like she could go for a good hour in some hot wasp sex. she looks like she has the strength and vigor of the original New World settlers. they were hearty people, those pilgrims. she's got the steely gaze of a New England woman of privilege. i could see myself with her in a good, healthy american romp in a wintery chateau by a wild fire.

hands? that's all you got? c'mon, that's a really nice pic of her, better than i thought she was capable of.


HA, you just burn white-hot sometimes.

[Raiders Army]

http://www.overspun.com/images/Coulter.Alien.jpg

Dude, that's photoshopped.

[Greyroofoo]

Grey, can you please not take this thread off-topic!

sorry :(

[Rizon]

To me, she looks like a concentration camp survivor in that picture.

Survivor or victim?

[dawgfan]

Dude, that's photoshopped.
It comes from her official website - is she photoshopping her own pictures?

[PineTar]

If the government would just have the balls to reinstitute the draft, we wouldn't have to worry about military recruiters at all. I guess instead of committing political suicide by doing so, it is much easier to look like a patriot lobbing insults at the most liberal town in America. Why make the difficult decisions when its so easy not to.

[Groundhog]

If the government would just have the balls to reinstitute the draft, we wouldn't have to worry about military recruiters at all. I guess instead of committing political suicide by doing so, it is much easier to look like a patriot lobbing insults at the most liberal town in America. Why make the difficult decisions when its so easy not to.

What's this got to do with Ann Coulter's freakish arms, hands, and adam's apple?

[dawgfan]

What's this got to do with Ann Coulter's freakish arms, hands, and adam's apple?
Yeah, no kidding - can we please stay on-topic?

[Raiders Army]

It comes from her official website - is she photoshopping her own pictures?

I don't think overspun.com is her official website. Show me the original from her website. You can tell whoever photoshopped it lengthened the upper arm and the hand. The upper arm is obscenely longer than her forearm as well as her hand. It's photoshopped.

[Calis]

I don't think overspun.com is her official website. Show me the original from her website. You can tell whoever photoshopped it lengthened the upper arm and the hand. The upper arm is obscenely longer than her forearm as well as her hand. It's photoshopped.


http://www.anncoulter.com/cgi-local/gallery.cgi

5th row down, 3rd over.

[Raiders Army]

huh. I sit corrected.

[Subby]

If the government would just have the balls to reinstitute the draft, we wouldn't have to worry about military recruiters at all. I guess instead of committing political suicide by doing so, it is much easier to look like a patriot lobbing insults at the most liberal town in America. Why make the difficult decisions when its so easy not to.
I want to make babies with you.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I WORE MY DENVER BRONCOS STUFF TO OAKLAND AND THEY DIDN'T LIKE ME WTF

CMON I'M CANADIAN

[Desnudo]

she looks healthy! she looks like she'd be game for an impromptu tennis match. she looks like she could go for a good hour in some hot wasp sex. she looks like she has the strength and vigor of the original New World settlers. they were hearty people, those pilgrims. she's got the steely gaze of a New England woman of privilege. i could see myself with her in a good, healthy american romp in a wintery chateau by a wild fire.

hands? that's all you got? c'mon, that's a really nice pic of her, better than i thought she was capable of.

Maybe people are feeling a bit inadequate

[dawgfan]

I don't think overspun.com is her official website. Show me the original from her website. You can tell whoever photoshopped it lengthened the upper arm and the hand. The upper arm is obscenely longer than her forearm as well as her hand. It's photoshopped.

huh. I sit corrected.

:p

[Toddzilla]

I can't believe in that picture, everyone is talking about arms and hands when it is clearly evident THAT THE GHOUL HAS AN ADAMS APPLE!