Oh Hell! (Impending New Solecismic Release Of "Up and Down The River")

[Dutch]

ACTUAL ANNOUNCEMENT!

www.solecismic.com (http://www.solecismic.com)


10th Anniversary Celebration


February 20, 2008 was the tenth anniversary of the day Jim Gindin packed up his cubicle and founded Solecismic Software. With seven, soon to be eight, full game releases in ten years, Solecismic Software remains an active independent Windows-based game producer.
Production is almost complete on that eighth game release. Front Office Card Games: Up and Down the River will be released in the next few days.
What is "Up and Down the River?" It's a popular trick-taking card game. It is also known as "Oh, Heck" or "Oh, Hell" in many areas. Since we love the numbers behind the games, the "Solecismic" take on the card game genre is to provide a wealth of statistics to enjoy after the game. Almost like a career-play card game, but not quite. So, is Solecismic Software now exclusively in the card game business? No, not at all. The idea behind it is to get a low-maintenance product out there that will remain fresh for a long time. There might be more card games in the future if this one sells well, but the company will remain committed to football products in the future as it searches for a new publisher.



Players


From 3 to 7 people can play. The game is best when played with 4 to 6. Cards


A standard 52 card deck is used. The cards in each suit rank (from high to low) A K Q J 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2. Sequence of Hands


The game consists of a series of hands. The first hand is played with 7 to 10 cards dealt to each player, depending on the number of players:
3 to 5 players, 10 cards each;
6 players, 8 cards each;
7 players, 7 cards each(because of the limit of 52 cards available). Each successive hand is played with one card fewer, down to a hand of just one card each, then one card more per hand back up to the starting level.

Example: With 7 players, the hands are: 7 cards, then 6,5,4,3,2,1, then 2,3,4,5,6,7, for a total of 13 hands to the game. A game should take approximately 45 minutes. Object of the Game


The object is for each player to bid the number of tricks he thinks he can take from each hand, then to take exactly that many; no more and no fewer. Points are awarded only for making the bid exactly, and are deducted for missing the bid, either over or under (see scoring (http://www.pagat.com/exact/ohhell.html#scoring) below).
The hook is that at least one player will fail on each hand, because the total number of tricks bid by the players may not equal the number of tricks available on that hand. Deal


To determine the first dealer, draw cards. The player with the highest card deals first. The turn to deal rotates clockwise with each hand.
The cards are shuffled and cut and the dealer deals the cards singly until everyone has the appropriate number of cards (http://www.pagat.com/exact/ohhell.html#sequence) for the hand being played. The next card is turned face up and the suit of this card is the trump suit for the hand. The trump suit beats any of the other three suits played in that hand. The remaining undealt cards are placed in a face down stack with the turned trump on top of it. Bidding


The bidding in each hand begins with the player to the left of the dealer, then continues clockwise, back around to the dealer, who bids last. Each bid is a number representing the number of tricks that player will try to take. Everyone must bid - it is not possible to pass, but you can bid zero, in which case your object is to take no tricks at all. A bid may be changed only if the next player to the left has not yet bid. Remember the hook: the dealer may not bid the number that would cause the total number of tricks bid to equal the number of tricks available; a hand will always be "over-bid" or "under-bid". Keep in mind when bidding that not all cards in the deck are in play in any hand. Play


The play begins with the player to the dealer's left, who leads the first card. The lead may be any suit (including trump). Play follows clockwise. Each player must follow the suit led, if he can. If not, he may play any other card in his hand, including trump. The player who has played the highest trump card, or if no trump was played, the highest card of the suit led, wins the trick. That player then leads to the next trick. Continue until all tricks have been played and won. Scoring


The scorekeeper is designated prior to each game according to house rules. The scorekeeper, needless to say, has a distinct advantage, and should be monitored closely for "inadvertent" errors. The designated scorekeeper notes each bid and resulting scores on a score sheet. There are many different ways to score Oh Hell!
In the simplest version, a player who wins the exact number of tricks bid scores 10 plus the number of tricks bid (10 points for zero tricks, 11 for 1 trick, 12 for two tricks, etc.) Players who take more or fewer tricks than they bid score nothing. This method has the advantage that the scorekeeper, having written down the bids at the start of the play, can simply write a figure "1" in front of those that were successful and delete those that are not.
Perhaps the most widespread scoring method is to award 1 point for each trick won plus a bonus of 10 points for players who win exactly the number of tricks they bid. So for example a player who bid 2 would score 12 points for winning exactly 2 tricks, but only 1 for 1 trick and 3 for 3 tricks. This gives a player whose bid fails a slight incenbtive to win as many tricks as possible.
Some other scoring methods are given in the variations section (http://www.pagat.com/exact/ohhell.html#scoring-vars) below. Whatever method is used, the score keeper keeps a cumulative total of each player's score. The final cumulative scores determine the result. If the game is played for money, players pay or receive amounts corresponding to the difference of their scores from the average.
Several people have produced preprinted Oh Hell score sheets, reflecting various scoring methods.
Carter Hoerr has produced a specially designed scoresheet, with the rules of Oh Hell! on the back. These are available as an MSWord file or as printed copies. To obtain them you can download the (zipped) file (http://www.pagat.com/exact/score.zip) or send e-mail to Carter Hoerr ([email protected]).
Here is Bryce Francis' scoresheet (http://www.pagat.com/exact/bust.zip) for the Australian game Bust (in the zip are MSWord file and an improved version in an MSExcel file).
At CardScore.com (http://www.cardscore.com/), you can obtain Steve Gallagher's Oh Hell score sheet.
Roger Hopkins offers an Oh Hell score sheet as an Excel file (http://www.naturalhighs.net/Fun/ohhell.htm).Variations

Sequence of Hands


There are a lot of variations of this. Some people start from 1 card each, go up to the maximum number of cards and then back down to 1. Some just go from the maximum down to 1 and then stop, or vice versa. If there are four people the maximum number of cards dealt may be 13 rather than 10, with three people you can go up to 17. Some people go up to some other maximum, such as 7 cards, irrespective of the number of players.
Dan Strohm describes a version, called Devil's Bridge, in which the hand size increases and then decreases. On the final 1 card hand, the players must each hold their card on their forehead, so each player can see all the other player's cards but not their own.
Bryce Francis reports that in Australia, when playing Bust with 5 players, they add 13 low cards from a second pack to make a 65 card pack, so as to deal 13 cards each on the first hand as with 4 players. When there are six players they add a further 13 low cards, so that the bottom half of the pack is duplicated. If duplicate cards are played to a trick, the second played beats the first. Determining Trumps


Some sequences include hands in which all cards are dealt (for example 13 cards each to 4 players). There is of course then no card left to determine the trump suit. These hands are played without trumps.
Instead of turning up a card, some people go through the possible trump suits in a fixed sequence. This sequence may or may not include "no trumps".
Brad Wilson describes a version called "Oh Shit!" in which Spades are always trumps.
Jean-Pierre Coulon reports a variation in which after the appropriate number of cards have been dealt to the players, the next card is turned face up. If the rank of the turned up card is from 2 to 6, there are no trumps for the deal; if it is 7 or higher, the suit of the turned up card is trumps. Bidding


Some people play without the hook rule, so the dealer is allowed to bid in such a way that everyone can win. There was a lively discussion in rec.games.playing-cards as to which version is more skilful, with strong advocates of each. Some think that hands where the bids add up are too easy; but others say that forcing the bids not to add up removes a tactical option from the dealer.
Some play with simultaneous bidding. When the players are ready to bid, they put a fist on the table. When everyone's fist is out, the group says "One, Two, Three" while bouncing their fists on the table. On Three, everyone must stick out some number of fingers (possibly zero) to indicate how many tricks they will try to take. Of course, with this method, there's no restriction against the total number of bid tricks being equal to the number of cards dealt. Since players cannot adjust their bids based on the other players' bids, the total tricks bid can be wildly different from the tricks available - for example it is not uncommon for three or four players to bid "one" when only one card was dealt. Several correspondents report that in Australia, most groups use simultaneous bidding rather than bidding in turn. Play

Some play that the dealer, rather than the player to dealer's left, leads to the first trick.
David Wuori (of Maine, USA) reports a variation in which a player who has no card of the suit led must trump. Only if you have no cards of the suit led and no trumps can you discard from a different non-trump suit. Although this is rule is uncommon in English speaking countries, it is actually the usual way of playing La Podrida (http://www.pagat.com/exact/podrida.html) (the Spanish equivalent to Oh Hell playefd in Latin America and in Spain) as well as the equivalent Romanian game of Whist (http://www.pagat.com/exact/romwhist.html).
Mark Brader suggests a variation in which two jokers (big and little) are included, to make a 54-card deck. These jokers are a suit of their own containing only two cards. If a joker is turned up the other joker is the only trump.
Scoring


There are many alternative systems.
Some players give the usual 10-point bonus for a successful positive bid but award only 5 points for a successful bid of zero. Others award 5 plus the number of cards dealt to each player for a successful zero bid, recognising the fact that zero is more difficult when more cards are dealt.
Some score 10 points for each trick bid and won for a successful bid. A successful "zero" bid wins 10 points. A player whose bid is unsuccessful (over or under) loses 10 points times the difference between the number of tricks won and the number of tricks bid.
Another system is that you win 5 points if you are right plus 10 for each trick taken, and you lose 5 points if you are wrong plus an extra 5 for each trick difference from your bid.
Yet another system: if you make your bid exactly you score 10 points plus the square of the number of tricks you bid (i.e. 10 points for none, 11 for one, 14 for two, 19 for three, 26 for four, etc.); if you fail you lose the square of the difference between the number of tricks you bid and the number of tricks you took.
Some play for a single winner, who is the player with the highest score when the whole series of hands has been played. In case of a tie after the last hand, some deal further hand(s) with the maximum number of cards until a clear winner is determined. The winner may not be any of those involved in the original tie - any player can win until the end.

[Dutch]

Sorry, this should be in the General Discussion Forum...

[Leonidas]

Um, isn't this game really called Spades? I've never heard it called Oh hell.

[Ben E Lou]

Bid Whist.


Elvis was a hero to most...

[Ben E Lou]

;)

[JetsIn06]

Um, isn't this game really called Spades? I've never heard it called Oh hell.

You don't choose the trump card in Spades though.

[Ben E Lou]

What Dutch posted above sounds like a simplified version of Bid Whist.

http://www.pagat.com/boston/bidwhist.html

[Malificent]

Also different from spades in that the total number of cards a player has each hand decreases from 13 down to 2 and then back up again.

I love this game and I used to play it all the time.

[Passacaglia]

Um, isn't this game really called Spades? I've never heard it called Oh hell.

If it's anything like Spades, that would be cool. I've been trying to adapt spades to MP football games in a couple leagues, with varying success. Maybe this release will help in that endeavor.

[mrsimperless]

I feel like I just woke up on Christmas day only to find out it's actually just mid-July.

I will try the card game though.

[cuervo72]

Isn't this missing the actual announcement?

[Dutch]

happy?

[cuervo72]

Actually, yes.

[Passacaglia]

Seems weird that you bid not knowing what trump is. But I'll definitely give it a shot.

[sovereignstar]

oh hell.. no

[Solecismic]

Here's a link to a description of the card game itself: http://www.pagat.com/exact/ohhell.html

Trump is revealed before the bidding. After the deal, you turn the next card face up as trump.

This was our game of choice in college. It's very easy to get into, but the bidding makes it one of the more strategically complex and interesting games out there. Knowing when to lose tricks is more important than simply winning what you can.

It's my hope that this game succeeds, so that I can have a small, more consistent revenue stream allowing me to dive back into the football games.

[cuervo72]

Seems weird that you bid not knowing what trump is. But I'll definitely give it a shot.

I used to play a game called Hossie/Hawsy/Haasenpfeffer/Pepper with a friend's family, and you would bid in order to establish what trump was. Similar to Euchre, I think [actually...variant of Bid Euchre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bid_Euchre), though what I played doesn't exactly match up with Pepper/Double Pepper]. Played with two pinochle decks (or three if you have six players), Jacks of the trump are the highest possible cards (right bowers), Jacks of color are next (left bowers), etc.

If you are long in say, spades and the bid comes and diamonds are trump...you could well be screwed.

[cuervo72]

Question - is this only going to be a windows game, or might there be a PDA port?

(my wife plays games a lot on her PDA, I'd think others do too - might be something to explore)

[tarcone]

I love playing Oh Hell. My family still plays this game when we get together.

This is actually exciting.

[Passacaglia]

Here's a link to a description of the card game itself: http://www.pagat.com/exact/ohhell.html

Trump is revealed before the bidding. After the deal, you turn the next card face up as trump.

This was our game of choice in college. It's very easy to get into, but the bidding makes it one of the more strategically complex and interesting games out there. Knowing when to lose tricks is more important than simply winning what you can.

It's my hope that this game succeeds, so that I can have a small, more consistent revenue stream allowing me to dive back into the football games.

That's pretty confusing, and conflicts with some of the info in Dutch's post. I guess I'll just find out when I play! :p

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Solecismic View Post
Here's a link to a description of the card game itself: http://www.pagat.com/exact/ohhell.html

Trump is revealed before the bidding. After the deal, you turn the next card face up as trump.

This was our game of choice in college. It's very easy to get into, but the bidding makes it one of the more strategically complex and interesting games out there. Knowing when to lose tricks is more important than simply winning what you can.

It's my hope that this game succeeds, so that I can have a small, more consistent revenue stream allowing me to dive back into the football games.

That's pretty confusing, and conflicts with some of the info in Dutch's post. I guess I'll just find out when I play!


This is the way I grew up playing.

Guys, this game is so easy to learn and play. It is a great card game.
I am sad to see it limited to 4 people, but I can live with that I guess

[VPI97]

It's my hope that this game succeeds, so that I can have a small, more consistent revenue stream allowing me to dive back into the football games.

I think it's important to remember that Solecismic is an independent developer (hence Freedom Day)...and that this isn't an EA release. As such, people should look back at the body of work and make their decision to either support independent development or not.

Just like public television, there are programs that are broadcast that I either find to be interesting or I find to be boring. But regardless of what my viewing habits have been when telethon time comes around, I contribute. Why? Not because I'm glued to that channel 24/7....and not because I'm a nice guy. It's because every once in a while I'll flip past GPTV and see a program on Napoleon or a program on World War II or a program on the Blue Man Group. And I understand that I'd rather have those opportunities available than the channel go off the air and miss out on the things that I'd like to watch.

I support independent development. Sign me up.

[tarcone]

where or when can it be purchased?

[Passacaglia]

I think it's important to remember that Solecismic is an independent developer (hence Freedom Day)...and that this isn't an EA release. As such, people should look back at the body of work and make their decision to either support independent development or not.

Just like public television, there are programs that are broadcast that I either find to be interesting or I find to be boring. But regardless of what my viewing habits have been when telethon time comes around, I contribute. Why? Not because I'm glued to that channel 24/7....and not because I'm a nice guy. It's because every once in a while I'll flip past GPTV and see a program on Napoleon or a program on World War II or a program on the Blue Man Group. And I understand that I'd rather have those opportunities available than the channel go off the air and miss out on the things that I'd like to watch.

I support independent development. Sign me up.

Damn, dude, it's not medicine, it's a card game! It'll be fun.

[vex]

oh hell.. no

+1

[Alan T]

Wow... "Oh Heck" was my family's game to play my entire life growing up.. Every holiday that we get together, we still play this...

[Solecismic]

To answer questions:

I'm open to PDA development, but I assume there's an associated learning curve. I would imagine that would require some distribution help from a publisher.

The game allows competition against 2, 3 or 4 computer opponents (3, 4 or 5-player game). I've always felt that variable player numbers would be a good addition to a card game.

It will be released in the next few days. I don't have all of the artwork in from my artist. The game itself is finished. It will be sold through ViaTech's elicense at $9.95 per copy.

The download itself will serve as a 60-minute free demo, after which a license will be required to continue.

The Shakespeare "theme" only relates to the avatars used as computer opponents. My artist is very talented, but this is proving a difficult challenge. Gridiron Greta (who is an excellent poet herself) was asked if she would consent to another photo session, but she declined.

[Ben E Lou]

Jim, what sort of stats presentation are you talking about?

[Icy]

To answer questions:

I'm open to PDA development, but I assume there's an associated learning curve. I would imagine that would require some distribution help from a publisher.

The game allows competition against 2, 3 or 4 computer opponents (3, 4 or 5-player game). I've always felt that variable player numbers would be a good addition to a card game.

It will be released in the next few days. I don't have all of the artwork in from my artist. The game itself is finished. It will be sold through ViaTech's elicense at $9.95 per copy.

The download itself will serve as a 60-minute free demo, after which a license will be required to continue.

The Shakespeare "theme" only relates to the avatars used as computer opponents. My artist is very talented, but this is proving a difficult challenge. Gridiron Greta (who is an excellent poet herself) was asked if she would consent to another photo session, but she declined.

Just curious, isn't 60 minutes too much time for a cards game demo? i mean, lots of people plays computers cards games while doing other things like at work etc, and rarely will play more than 60 minutes per session, so the demo is probably enough for them to enjoy in those short sessions without buying (of course you must be so cheap to play a game for a long time in 60 minutes sessions to avoid to pay $9.95 to the developer, but...). Maybe you meant 60 minutes total and not per session?

[Toddzilla]

Let me know when he releases a version of "Asshole".

Best. Card. Drinking. Game. EVER.

[Flasch186]

drink

[Passacaglia]

Jim, what sort of stats presentation are you talking about?

I'm curious about this as well. I'm intrigued by the idea of "career-play" mentioned somewhere earlier. I remember a while ago I had a freeware euchre game that kept track of how many times each person called trump, and the percent of successes over attempts. It really helped me to play more aggressively, trying to push the percent I called trump up, while keeping my success rate high. Too bad I can't find it anymore. :(

[jbergey22]

Well athough I am disappointed that it isnt TCY2, this could work out well. The only suggestion I might have is to add more games, such as Euchre, spades, hearts, etc. I just cant imagine too many people finding enough depth in a card game in which their is only 1 game. I did buy a computer card game a while back that had 'oh hell' on it, but included the other games I talked about and a few more. It also kept career records. I played if for awhile until I released the computer was incapable of making correct decisions and was too easy to take advantage of.

[MIJB#19]

Just curious, isn't 60 minutes too much time for a cards game demo? i mean, lots of people plays computers cards games while doing other things like at work etc, and rarely will play more than 60 minutes per session, so the demo is probably enough for them to enjoy in those short sessions without buying (of course you must be so cheap to play a game for a long time in 60 minutes sessions to avoid to pay $9.95 to the developer, but...). Maybe you meant 60 minutes total and not per session?The way I read it is that some timer starts ticking when you start your first game and keeps ticking without resetting throughout (your) sessions. When your 60 minutes are done, you get a register pop-up. Or something along hose lines.

[pughead]

Grrrr...Just bought FOF2k7 @ full price on 2/17. :(

[Ben E Lou]

The way I read it is that some timer starts ticking when you start your first game and keeps ticking without resetting throughout (your) sessions. When your 60 minutes are done, you get a register pop-up. Or something along hose lines.That would be my assumption...

[Honolulu Blue]

Congrats, Jim, on surviving for ten years.

The card game is on the right track for me since I have little time these days for career sims and other long strategy games. But this particular game isn't one I'm interested in. Euchre would definitely be worth a long look, though I haven't played it in ages. That said, I'll take a look at the demo.

[Marc Vaughan]

Sounds very similar to nomination whist ... I'll definitely give it a whirl.

(which has 'Mizz' rounds where you lost for each trick taken but get a huge bonus if you take none, leading to people victimising each other to ensure that no one avoids taking any and 'Blind' where you have to nominate without looking at your cards)

[Karlifornia]

lol...My first and last visit to this forum, possibly.

[GrantDawg]

My family used to play this game, too. We actually called it "One, Two, Three, Daddy" because my dad learned it at the firehouse, and claimed he didn't know the name (they probably called it Oh, Hell and he didn't want to tell us). I haven't played it in many years. I'll probably give it a shot.

[MIJB#19]

Congrats, Jim, on surviving for ten years.Yeah, this sentiment can use being said a bit more. One can't blame anyone for following their dream and finding out it works for them. It was a very brave decission back in the day and it's good to hear it is working out for you so far, Jim.

[Solecismic]

The "career" aspect is mainly simply tracking every statistic I could think of. How well do you do in hands with each potential number of cards, what's your average bid, how often do you make that bid.

I'll post screen shots when the artwork comes back and can be put into the game. It's looking like that won't take place until Monday at the earliest. This avatar thing was far more complex than originally thought.

The trial is time-limited to 60 minutes with the game open. The game doesn't keep statistics for hands played during the trial, as well.

[Passacaglia]

I hope flere is the artist. I can't wait to play against stick-figured rock stars with crazy hair.

[sachmo71]

Not what I was expecting at all.

[TwinCitiesFan]

This has got to be a joke...a friggin card game???

[Izulde]

Although I have no interest in this game myself, I know a few people who might like it, so I'll pass on the info to them.

[JeffNights]

You gotta be kidding me......I have better things to spend ten bucks on..if you want more revenue stream put a freaking game out that isnt a freaking card game.

[Joe]

I am also disappointed. I was expecting an actual card game, not a card game on computer. :(

[Ben E Lou]

VPI hit the nail on the head for me. Would I normally go out and buy a card game? Probably not. Is ten bucks a ridiculously tiny price to pay to help make sure that there's an FOF7 and a TCY2 (and hopefully an FOF8,9,10 or more and a TCY3,4,5 or more) given my enjoyment of Solecismic products for 9+ years? Of course. Absolute no-brainer of a purchase.

[Ben E Lou]

Dola:

I'm also thinking that, if properly positioned, this could be a good way to get more eyes on FOF and TCY. I know when I get a hankerin' to play a card game or dominos or backgammon, I head over to download.com and grab one of those "free to try, $9.95 to buy" type games. If Jim were to get the game over there and put a prominent, "check out our football games at solecismic.com" banner somewhere, this could be a direct sales boost to the core products as well.

[JetsIn06]

This has got to be a joke...a friggin card game???

:mad::mad:

[Raiders Army]

VPI hit the nail on the head for me. Would I normally go out and buy a card game? Probably not. Is ten bucks a ridiculously tiny price to pay to help make sure that there's an FOF7 and a TCY2 (and hopefully an FOF8,9,10 or more and a TCY3,4,5 or more) given my enjoyment of Solecismic products for 9+ years? Of course. Absolute no-brainer of a purchase.

I'd feel better if he just charged $10 more for a future iteration of FOF or TCY.

[Ben E Lou]

People are, well, stupid. They'd go nutso if he charged $49.99 for a text sim, even though text sims usually last far, far longer on the hard drive than do the other $49.99 games we buy. *shurg*

[CraigSca]

I'd pay $10 to be on his beta team for his football products :)

[mvb34]

A card game?? Boo Boo Boo, terrible announcement..

[Swaggs]

I would have rather had the announcement be for TCY2 or a different sport (I'm not into online play and I think FOF2007 is amazingly solid for single player), but I will probably buy this new game out of loyalty and to help ensure future games.

[Anthony]

i would consider getting this game, its something the wife and i can do together.

this is a great business move by Solecismic, btw. you are all disappointed because you assume every announcement the company makes is meant solely for the FOF buying public. the company isn't saying "hey you, Joe FOF-customer, i'm coming out with a card game too that i hope you might like, even though you were hoping for TCY2". the card game is to attract new customers, to expand his market to outside of just the football text-sim buying public. if not, how would his consumer-base ever increase if all he does is put out game for the same x amount of people who bought his previous games?

so basically i just wouldn't assume every business decision or announcement is meant soley for the FOFC community. we may be the most vocal element of his consumer base, but i do believe the company when they say we aren't their only customers and i now understand they're interested in making sure we aren't the only customers by branching out into other things. put another way, you may have a company that makes motorcycles that decides it also wants to make sewing machines. obviously its motorcycle buying base isn't going to care about its new line of sewing machines. but it'd be foolish to assume the company was banking on all of its motorcycle base to be excited and buy those sewing machines. rather, its safer to assume the company wanted to just generate new sources of income and expand it's base of customers.

[CraigSca]

I agree. This is all about revenue streams and it's pretty obvious by what he is doing that any football release was relatively lumpy regarding incoming revenue.

On a selfish note, I'm concerned because it sounds like developing football games is no longer enough to provide Jim a living. I'm hoping the card game(s) sell well as I'd love to see Solecismic's sports offerings far into the future.

I'll also reiterate I'd pay to be on the beta team for his football games. Making such an offering probably wouldn't sell as well as a card game, and he'd probably have to deal with the requisite, "No way am I paying $$$ to beta test YOUR game - that's an outrage!" crowd, but I think it would be intriguing to do so.

[BYU 14]

I don't know why people are up in arms over this, as HA said it could be a wise business move to attract a new audience and also develop some cross over players. It is smart to diversify.

Count me as one who was disappointed it wasn't TCY 2, but not the end of the World.....I can wait :)

One thing I don't get though, is why some would buy this game just to support Jim when it really isn't their cup of Tea. I guess that's admireable, but I would never buy something that didn't interest me just for that reason......Hell I love most of Sam Adams Beers, but I wouldn't buy bottled piss from them just to support the company while I waited for their new Tazmanian harvest seasonal brew to be finished.

Besides all that congrats to Jim on 10 years of freedom.....A great success story and here's to many more years.

[Swaggs]

One thing I don't get though, is why some would buy this game just to support Jim when it really isn't their cup of Tea. I guess that's admireable, but I would never buy something that didn't interest me just for that reason......Hell I love most of Sam Adams Beers, but I wouldn't buy bottled piss from them just to support the company while I waited for their new Tazmanian harvest seasonal brew to be finished.

With all due respect, I don't think this is much of an analogy, in this case.

To me, I would relate it to buying a non-legal thriller from John Grisham or buying a non-fiction novel from Stephen King. I really enjoy Grisham's legal thrillers and King's fiction, but, for the price of a book, I'd likely (and have) check out different genres from them, even though the subject isn't right up my alley. Or, I may spring for a solo album from a member of a band that I really like, on the chance that I may also like it.

I'd say, for something in the $20 or under range, it is worth a shot to check out something that I may or may not enjoy if it is from an artist or company that has provided me with something that I have enjoyed in the past. I've spent twice that on games that have gotten less than an hour of play on my computer (Black and White, comes to mind).

[Nogram]

I would pay $300 for a FOF2K8 with graphical representation of the play on the field (2D in a little box, similar to what you get with Eastside Hockey Manager). Too bad I don't see this coming any time soon.

Nogram

[BYU 14]

With all due respect, I don't think this is much of an analogy, in this case.

To me, I would relate it to buying a non-legal thriller from John Grisham or buying a non-fiction novel from Stephen King. I really enjoy Grisham's legal thrillers and King's fiction, but, for the price of a book, I'd likely (and have) check out different genres from them, even though the subject isn't right up my alley. Or, I may spring for a solo album from a member of a band that I really like, on the chance that I may also like it.

I'd say, for something in the $20 or under range, it is worth a shot to check out something that I may or may not enjoy if it is from an artist or company that has provided me with something that I have enjoyed in the past. I've spent twice that on games that have gotten less than an hour of play on my computer (Black and White, comes to mind).

I respect that and if I felt like you in this regards I probably would take a chance and buy the card game as well. I am just not a big card player, so I even for a 10 spot I don't have any interest, despite the fact I like the FOF series and TCY is one of my top 5 favs of all time. So, based on my view the analogy makes perfect sense. ;)

[Izulde]

I'd pay $10 to be on his beta team for his football products :)

Ditto.

[JetsIn06]

A card game?? Boo Boo Boo, terrible announcement..

please stop...

[Dutch]

Thank you for supporting Solecismic Software.

Yes, I'll definately buy it to support Solecismic. I've gotten my money's worth out of Jim's products that's for sure and $10 is a reasonable price.

This is obviously an attempt to build a niche outside of the FOF/Sports world so our overall reactions here shouldn't be too surprising to Jim (good/bad/indifferent). Outside of it being a Solecismic product, it's really not relevant to FOFC, so the reaction should be shotgunned.

However, once this is released and out in the world, I for one would really like to glean some insight to Solecismic's future endeavours. Another card game? TCY2? A mini-update to TCY to bring us up to date? Like everyone else in this FOF/TCY niche, I'll be be paying attention for news like that.

Oh, and I didn't say it, but Congrats on your 10th anniversary. I'm looking forward to congratulating you on your 20th as well.

[Julio Riddols]

The way Jim has always been, I would think there is a pleasant surprise not too far off. He has always been on point when it comes to giving us what we want as fans of his football games, and I assume we make up a majority of his fan base.. But if this product finds a place on some hard drives and helps finance the advancement of FOF or TCY, I think we're going to be looking at a real step forward for both games. Thats worth 10 bucks for sure.. Mere pennies in comparison to the price of living without the FOF I think Jim is capable of making.

Hell, I kind of look at it as a dollar for each year of boredom I have avoided by just having FOF around.

[DaddyTorgo]

maybe the cardgame-AI is something that can be ported over to the AI for the next game so it's all part of a building process? anyone think of that?

[Anthony]

i don't buy the logic of just giving someone money for something that i may not have interest in, just because of past accomplishments. by that token why doesn't the company just e-panhandle and simply ask for $10 donations? if they did that would you still want to blindly give the money away? that's what you'd essentially be doing if you pay $10 for something you will use maybe once or twice and never look at again.

hell, i've provided you all with years of entertaining and funny/classic posts, give me $10 if you're all in the giving mood.

this is like saying "I like Politician Bob Jones. he's always done right by my city and i suport his views. he's up for reelection again this year, but now it's come out he's a pedophile and crack user. i'll still vote for him for all the past years of great service he's done." this is the exact same logic.

i wish Solecismic the best. i hope this business move pans out for the company and allows it to release future products that are of definite higher interest to me in the mold of their FOF line of games. but i'm not just opening up my wallet to give it to someone else based on the logic of others here. again, the beauty of the internet is the joining of so many different ideas and viewpoints.

[Ben E Lou]

this is like saying "I like Politician Bob Jones. he's always done right by my city and i suport his views. he's up for reelection again this year, but now it's come out he's a pedophile and crack user. i'll still vote for him for all the past years of great service he's done." this is the exact same logic.
Making a card game is like being a pedophile and a crack user. Got it.

[Anthony]

Making a card game is like being a pedophile and a crack user. Got it.

obviously not to that extreme, but the analogy is valid. the point is if you wouldn't support someone who now represents something different from the things you used to support, would you still support that person just based off past achievements? or would you take that person at face value, the here and now, and say "ya know, i really appreciate all you've done, but things are different now and i'm gonna hold off." the logic of some here is you should support the person no matter what.

i'm not saying i wouldn't purchase the game, i would purchase it if i felt i would get use out of it or i can get my wife to play with me. i'm not going to purchase it based off of goodwill and all the years worth of enjoyment i've received from Solecismic games. i'm a loyal Solecismic supporter, but i'm not a blindly loyal customer.

i've said people shouldn't knock the game since i agree it's a very valid business decision. i'm also saying it doesn't make sense to purchase something you have minimal interest in just to support someone. that isn't capitalism. capitalism is producing goods that has a demand in the public and that they're willing to spend money on. what some people want to do is turn it into charity. i look forward to other future games from the company though, that's for sure.

[MikeVic]

Hey since when was jbmagic back??

[MikeVic]

Dola,

I swear I saw him post a link last night!

[DaddyTorgo]

you did. i saw the jbmagic-ness as well!!!

[DaddyTorgo]

where'd it go??? i demand an explanation!!!

[MikeVic]

I remember the link being not great for this thread.

But I still didn't know about jb being back!

[Anthony]

he posted a link to a site that had free card games, one of which is was "Oh Hell". i played it for a bit even though i had no clue what i was doing, just to get a feel for the game. i kinda picked it up a bit, but the site didn't explain the rules so well.

[Dutch]

he posted a link to a site that had free card games, one of which is was "Oh Hell". i played it for a bit even though i had no clue what i was doing, just to get a feel for the game. i kinda picked it up a bit, but the site didn't explain the rules so well.

Never fear. With Solecismic, you know you'll get a help file that will explain everything.















(sorry, couldn't resist.)

[Anthony]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzing. LOL.


well played.

[Crapshoot]

Wow... "Oh Heck" was my family's game to play my entire life growing up.. Every holiday that we get together, we still play this...

Ditto - we get vicious. My sister's boyfriend got so much crap for not being up to our standards. :D And we called it Oh Hell.

[tarcone]

Ditto - we get vicious. My sister's boyfriend got so much crap for not being up to our standards. :D And we called it Oh Hell.

Yeah, you bid goofy and you get the wrath. It took a little for my wife to get comfortable playing.

[Raiders Army]

After thinking about it for a bit, I don't see where the FOF circle and the computer card game circle greatly converge in this Venn diagram of customers. I don't see how this card game will attract more customers to FOF; however, I can see how FOF will attract customers to this card game since people have already said that they would support his product blindly in the hopes of future iterations of FOF.

What if it goes the other way? What if Up and Down the River is so successful that Jim devotes more time to more card games and provides periodic updates to FOF 2007 and there is never a TCY 2? Would some people feel foolish for supporting the card game then?

I truly believe that Jim will never stop making new football sims, but if the card game takes off you have to wonder how much time will be spent on other card games and how much time will be spent on football sims. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from supporting Jim at all here though.

Anyhow, just some musings from my corner of the board.

[Dutch]

After thinking about it for a bit, I don't see where the FOF circle and the computer card game circle greatly converge in this Venn diagram of customers. I don't see how this card game will attract more customers to FOF; however, I can see how FOF will attract customers to this card game since people have already said that they would support his product blindly in the hopes of future iterations of FOF.

Honestly, I agree with the sentiment here, I am not thrilled about the card game either, but if the man thinks he needs this to upgrade his quality of life and support his family who are we to argue with that and say he is wrong?

What if it goes the other way? What if Up and Down the River is so successful that Jim devotes more time to more card games and provides periodic updates to FOF 2007 and there is never a TCY 2? Would some people feel foolish for supporting the card game then?

Life goes on. If Jim turns into a millionare because of Bid Whist, I'll eat my hat (although it would make more money if it were called that I think!). I think what really will happen is something closer to what Jim has suggested, an honest subsidy to the real meat and potato's of his operation--football.

I truly believe that Jim will never stop making new football sims, but if the card game takes off you have to wonder how much time will be spent on other card games and how much time will be spent on football sims. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from supporting Jim at all here though.

Anyhow, just some musings from my corner of the board.

At some point down the line, Jim could probably convert FOF and TCY into there own annual $9.95 updates.

Who knows, maybe one day somebody will make a killer football sim-game that actually can compete with FOF. Or one that blows FOF away? I doubt you or I will be there to "blindly" support the man then if he had all his eggs in one basket. The way I read it, Jim's diversifying a bit, nothing more.

I still agree with your overall sentiment, however. :)

[cthomer5000]

Not my cup of tea but I wish Solecismic the best with this release.

[albionmoonlight]

Solid move. A fun game. And a way to diversify the revenue stream. Wishing Solecismic all the best here.

[Joe]

support independent development: buy crap you don't want.

[Toddzilla]

support independent development: buy crap you don't want.^^^ owns Maximum Football, natch.

[aran]

Jim should just put a "donate" button on his website.

It would save him time and probably make him more money than this odd shot in the dark at a different market.

I won't buy a $10 novelty game. If it's as obtuse to use as Jim's other products, I can't imagine other people will, either.

That said, I hope Jim makes enough money so that he can live more than comfortably and devote his time to making FOF2007 into a game that people outside of the hardcore text-sim circle can enjoy.

[Jim G.]

So, your position is that a product you've never seen before is so bad that the developer is better off simply begging for money? That's a little cold.

I don't want people to buy the new game who don't want to play the game. However, it would be nice if those of you who have already expressed anger toward my decision simply didn't visit this section of the forum.

[ace1914]

So, your position is that a product you've never seen before is so bad that the developer is better off simply begging for money? That's a little cold.

I don't want people to buy the new game who don't want to play the game. However, it would be nice if those of you who have already expressed anger toward my decision simply didn't visit this section of the forum.

You are a better man than me, jim. I'd be one step away from cussing these cats out. But anyway, I'm all for seeing what it is you got and making a INFORMED BUYING decision from there. Hell I own FOF and love it so I don't understand what all the animosity is for, anyway. Keep it coming and feel free to let me know when FOF will have graphics to make it the ULTIMATE sim...

[lighthousekeeper]

So, your position is that a product you've never seen before is so bad that the developer is better off simply begging for money? That's a little cold.

I don't think he's saying the game will be horrible, but that, in his opinion "It would save [you] time and probably make [you] more money than this odd shot in the dark at a different market." But you certainly are the best judge on that.

It's like that example of building a screen door for a submarine. You might in fact be building the best screen door that has ever been built for a submarine. The dimensions might be exquisite, the mesh size perfect, but at the end of the day, is it something that anyone would want?

[wade moore]

I will certainly check the demo out and be inclined to put in the $10 if I think it will occupy even a small amount of my time as I will do what I can to support Solecismic software.

Hell, I blew $20 between two days last week trying to win myself $200 million, I can spend $10 to support a company that has given me far more bang for my buck than any other game developer, small or large.

[Raiders Army]

So, your position is that a product you've never seen before is so bad that the developer is better off simply begging for money? That's a little cold.

I don't want people to buy the new game who don't want to play the game. However, it would be nice if those of you who have already expressed anger toward my decision simply didn't visit this section of the forum.

I don't have any anger towards your decision. You've always been a really stand-up guy when it comes to FREE updates to FOF and TCY. I've always thought that maybe you should charge for the updates since they're more than just little tweaks.

Whereas some people have said that customers of Up and Down the River will buy FOF, I just don't see it as they're different types of markets.

I wish you the best of luck with this and it'll be interesting to see how it goes. Although I will not buy the game outright when it comes out since it's not my cup of tea, I will see how the boardmembers who are interested in the game like it and then take it from there and possibly buy the game.

[digamma]

I'm a little confused by the surprise and anger people are showing toward the announcement. Hadn't Jim already posted a couple of times that he was making a card game, and that it would be a non-football game? If I remember correctly, he asked people to contact him if they had Shakespeare themed artwork.

I think wade moore hit the purchase decision nail on the head. While "supporting independent development" may sound like donating or buying something based solely on past products, there is a new game being offered and at $10 it doesn't have to return very much to make it a worthwhile purchase as a stand alone. And for me, anyway, you can add to that a potential benefit of helping possible future versions of FOF and TCY.

[Dutch]

I can tell you that I was dissapointed enough with the Shakespearean themed idea....since I'm pretty well uneducated, unrefined, likes to eat chicken with my hands and all-around barbarian-like, but I've mellowed out a lot with the announcement of a traditional card game and I hope that my non-anger has been properly displayed. Plus, I'm a huge fan of mini-diversions since I spend a lot of my time on the computer in short bursts (I don't have time to spend 3 or 4 hours in a row at the computer anymore.)

[st.cronin]

Not my cup of tea but I wish Solecismic the best with this release.

+1

[Passacaglia]

I'm a little confused by the surprise and anger people are showing toward the announcement. Hadn't Jim already posted a couple of times that he was making a card game, and that it would be a non-football game? If I remember correctly, he asked people to contact him if they had Shakespeare themed artwork.


Word. I don't get the surprise generated from this announcement.

Anyway, I don't think Jim's intent is to do any kind of cross-promotion, or use one to build a bigger audience for the other -- he just felt like developing a card game.

I'll buy it as soon as it comes out -- but I probably logged more time playing blackjack on TCY than anyone else.

[st.cronin]

I probably logged more time playing blackjack on TCY than anyone else.

I doubt that.

[aran]

So, your position is that a product you've never seen before is so bad that the developer is better off simply begging for money? That's a little cold.
I would donate money to you. That translates to "I believe that the product that you sold to me is worth more than I paid, and I am willing to give you the money you deserve." Not "I think Jim is poor and I should patronize him."

Accepting donations is not begging for money, especially when you develop software.

I will buy the next iteration of FOF or TCY, sight unseen, regardless of what you do in the interim (short of damaging your integrity as a football sim developer). I don't think anyone is holding a grudge against you for releasing a card game. It just seems to go against the core competency of Solecismic Software.


I don't want people to buy the new game who don't want to play the game. However, it would be nice if those of you who have already expressed anger toward my decision simply didn't visit this section of the forum.
Am I angry? Certainly not. I don't think anyone should be angry about what you have chosen to develop. That's silly.

I think what threw me off is the "Front Office" name going on the card game. Are you trying to build a brand?

[Toddzilla]

I bought the game, like it, but it GPF's all the damn time.

Jim, let me know where to send the error report via PM, please.

[Subby]

http://www.thefofl.com/subby/support.jpg

[Solecismic]

That's odd. I haven't had a crash in a long, long time during development.

When you email, try and send the first few lines of the technical information that Microsoft supposedly wants you to send.

It'll look like this: Unhandled exception at 0x006abcde in Application.exe: 0xC0000005: Access violation reading location 0xbb8a1434.

As well as exactly what the program was doing when it crashed.

[Toddzilla]

Done...

Anyone else getting a GPF?

It happens to me every single game - I've never finished a game since I bought it, and this never happened with the demo.

:C

[wade moore]

Done...

Anyone else getting a GPF?

It happens to me every single game - I've never finished a game since I bought it, and this never happened with the demo.

:C
Did you send the info to support that Solecismic asked for?

[Ben E Lou]

I read his post as....

To Jim: File is sent. (Done...)

To All: Anyone else seeing this?


Todd, if I am reading you right there, my answer would be that I haven't seen it.

[wade moore]

I read his post as....

To Jim: File is sent. (Done...)

To All: Anyone else seeing this?


Todd, if I am reading you right there, my answer would be that I haven't seen it.


Ah... That makes sense..

I read it as:

I'm done with this game. Seriously, I can't be the only one with this problem, can I?!

;)

[Anthony]

shouldn't these threads be in the "PC/Console Game Impressions" forum? or maybe Solecismic's own message board? with only 129 posts since the game has been announced it just doesn't seem deserving of it's own forum. is this going to be done for every Solecismic release. i know i don't like clutter and i favor simplicity, a pet peeve of mine is message boards that have a forum for every conceivable topic. i know this won't change anything, but this opinion was free to post so i posted it.

as you were.

[Solecismic]

Anyone else getting a GPF?

I've been looking into the data you sent. I haven't come up with a cause yet.

To answer your question, no, yours is the only report of a crash from anyone, beta or later. Doesn't mean I'm going to ignore it, though.

[Toddzilla]

I have sent a handfull of screen shots to support as well as the output file that XP generates (which looks to be of limited value).

I can tell you that I have 2 things running on my PC at all times - the SETI screensaver and Avast! antivirus. I turned off SETI and I still get a crash every single game. I am not, however, going to disable my anti-virus.

So far, I haven't received any useful feedback from support at all. "Hmm, it looks like it may be interference" is a nice observation, but not real helpful.

The good news is, I'm the only one getting crashes, so the anomaly is me and not the game.

[Hurst2112]

7+ months away from this forum.

I come back to find a card game. wow

good luck with the product and the progression of the company. I'll check back round September 08

off to play with more rock n roll...

\m/

[Flasch186]

almost no posts in a month in this thread. I wonder if the card game wasnt a mistake in retrospect. I tried to rationalize it's reach into casual gaming and have no insight into the number of buyers but the lack of buzz seems telling. Anyone?

[Solecismic]

almost no posts in a month in this thread. I wonder if the card game wasnt a mistake in retrospect. I tried to rationalize it's reach into casual gaming and have no insight into the number of buyers but the lack of buzz seems telling. Anyone?

If the goal was to sell to the exact same people as purchase sports simulations, then, of course, you'd be right.

The goal was as follows:

1. Write something fairly quickly that I've always wanted to write. The development cycle was very short. I had fun with it. I have no current plans to write another card game.

2. Provide a small amount of consistent revenue over a longer period of time. This game requires no maintenance, no updates, no customer support.

3. Get something new out there, so that potential publishers see my name and know I have varied interests and abilities. In that way, also, it's like dropping your business card in a variety of places - anyone who downloads the free demo is a potential new customer for the football games.

There just isn't a lot to say about the game here. Maybe it's time to fold this subforum into the one above it (as an aside, why do I have to log in 17 times every time I want to make a post?).

The only real negative was the reaction here, in that people seemed to take the decision personally. So maybe in that respect it was a mistake, if that negative feeling truly represents a change.

[Flasch186]

Well Im rooting for you and hope it's a huge success. I was simply doing a fly-by analysis and assumption. I hope you're selling millions, honestly. sorry for the bad reaction here. Ill bet it wasn;t so much a reaction to this game but a reaction to what it was not.

[Schmidty]

Honestly, I played the demo and wouldn't buy the game, as I don't like card games (even poker), but I really, really hope you sell a lot of this game. I want you to be able to be continue to be successful enough to eventually make a sports game again. I still plan on getting FOF2007, I'm just still bummed that I missed the discount you had that one week.

[st.cronin]

Honestly, I played the demo and wouldn't buy the game, as I don't like card games (even poker), but I really, really hope you sell a lot of this game. I want you to be able to be continue to be successful enough to eventually make a sports game again. I still plan on getting FOF2007, I'm just still bummed that I missed the discount you had that one week.

ditto, although I do like card games, just not on the pc, for me its a social thing.

[flounder]

I bought it. Played it for a while. Had $10 worth of fun out of it. That's about $9.95 more than most games out there. I'd say it was a success for me.

[JeffNights]

Played the demo, meh, went to free site with hundreds of full version card games. Hmmm..

[Ben E Lou]

Maybe it's time to fold this subforum into the one above it (as an aside, why do I have to log in 17 times every time I want to make a post?).Bump. Moving threads.