FOFC Literature Draft - Picks Thread

[lordscarlet]

Let the games begin! The rules are discussed in the previous thread, FOFC Literature Draft (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=63924).

Please make your picks by copying the below list and placing your selection next to the appropriate category. Bold your current selection and keep your selections through each round. I will also try to keep this thread up to date with current selections.


Fiction
Single Short Story
Poem
Fantasy/Science Fiction
Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially)
Sport Related
Children's
Non-Fiction
Biography/Autobiography
History


Label your selection like so:

Autobiography: 1.1 A Man and His Sandwich, Pumpy Tudors

The order, selected randomly by http://www.random.org/lists/ is:

A grid of selections can be viewed on Google Spreadsheets (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pflesdvL9IZ_JSHdymhobZw).

<iframe width='750' height='675' frameborder='0' src='//spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pflesdvL9IZ_JSHdymhobZw&output=html&gid=1&single=true&widget=true'></iframe>

Round 1

Chief Rum, The Holy Bible, God [History]
cartman, The Lord of The Rings Trilogy, J.R.R. Tolkein [Series]
st.cronin, The Dead, James Joyce [Short Story]
Maple Leafs, Hamlet, William Shakespeare [Fiction]
DaddyTorgo, The Foundation Series, Isaac Asimov [Series]
NoMyths, On the Origin of Species, Charles Darwin [Non-Fiction]
Warhammer, The Iliad, Homer [Poem]
larrymcg421, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, Mark Twain [Fiction]
Izulde, "The Waste Land", T.S. Eliot [Poem]
Axxon, Danse Macabre, Stephen King [Non-Fiction]


Round 2

Axxon, Harry Potter, J.K. Rowling [Series]
Izulde, Lolita, Vladimir Nabokov [Fiction]
larrymcg421, Paradise Lost, John Milton [Poem]
Warhammer, The Chronicles of Narnia, C.S. Lewis [Series]
NoMyths, The Divine Comedy, Dante Alighieri [Poem]
DaddyTorgo, Autobiographical Notes, Albert Einstein [Autobiography]
Maple Leafs, The Diary of a Young Girl, Anne Frank [History]
st.cronin, 1984, George Orwell, [Sci-Fi/Fantasy]
cartman, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, Lewis Carroll [Sci-Fi/Fantasy]
Chief Rum, A Christmas Carol, Charles Dickens [Short Story]

Round 3

Chief Rum, Walden, Henry David Thoreau [Autobiography]
cartman, The Cask of Amontillado, Edgar Allan Poe [Short Story]
st.cronin, Dune, Frank Herbert [Series]
Maple Leafs, War of the Worlds, H.G. Wells [Fantasy/Sci-Fi]
DaddyTorgo, Children's and Household Tales (1857 - 211 stories), The Brothers Grimm [Children's]
NoMyths, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams [Series]
Warhammer, Catch-22, Joseph Heller [Fiction]
larrymcg421, 3.8 Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler [Autobiography]
Izulde, The Musketeers Saga - The Three Musketeers, Twenty Years After, Le Vicomte de Bragelonne, Louise de la Valliere, The Man in the Iron Mask, Alexandre Dumas [Series]
Axxon, Shogun, James Clavell [Fiction]


Round 4

Axxon, Slaugtherhouse Five, Kurt Vonnegut [Sci-Fi/Fantasy]
Izulde, The Art of War, Sun Tzu [Non-Fiction]
larrymcg421, Communist Manifesto, Karl Marx [Non-Fiction]
Warhammer, Ball Four, Jim Bouton [Sports]
NoMyths, Friday Night Lights, H.G. Bissinger [Sports]
DaddyTorgo, Farenheit 451, Ray Bradbury [Fantasy/Sci-fi]
Maple Leafs, The Rime of the Ancient Mariner, Samuel Taylor Coleridge [Poem]
st.cronin, Rabbit, Run, John Updike [Sports]
cartman, Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand [Fiction]
Chief Rum, The Road Not Taken, Robert Frost [Poem]


Round 5

Chief Rum, Charlotte's Web, E.B. White [Children's]
cartman, Paul Revere's Ride, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow [Poem]
st.cronin, The Diary of Anais Nin, Anais Nin [Autobiography]
Maple Leafs, The Cat in the Hat, Dr. Seuss [Children's]
DaddyTorgo, Leaves of Grass, Walt Whitman [Poem]
NoMyths, Treasure Island, Robert Louis Stevenson [Children's]
Warhammer, Flowers for Algernon, Daniel Keyes [Short Story]
larrymcg421, The Legend of Sleepy Hollow, Washington Irving [Short Story]
Izulde, North Dallas Forty, Peter Gent [Sports]
Axxon, The Miracle of Castel di Sangro, Joe McGinniss [Sports]


Round 6

Axxon, The Lottery, Shirley Jackson [Short Story]
Izulde, Night, Elie Wiesel [Autobiography]
larrymcg421, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, L Frank Baum [Children's]
Warhammer, Profiles in Courage, John F. Kennedy [Biography]
NoMyths, Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, an American Slave, Frederick Douglass [Autobiography]
DaddyTorgo, The Death of Ivan Ilyich, Tolstoy [Short Story]
Maple Leafs, The Analects of Confucius, Confucius [Non-Fiction]
st.cronin, The Second World War, Winston Churchill [History]
cartman, Casey At The Bat, Ernest Thayer [Sports]
Chief Rum, 6.10 Ender's Game, Orson Scott Card [Series]

Round 7

Chief Rum, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sleep, Phillip K. Dick [Sci-Fi/Fantasy]
cartman, Kama Sutra, Mallanaga Vatsyayana [Non-Fiction]
st.cronin, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, Robert Pirsig [Non-Fiction]
Maple Leafs, Paper Lion, George Plimpton [Sports]
DaddyTorgo, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Luo Guanzhong [Fiction]
NoMyths, Neuromancer, William Gibson [Sci-Fi/Fantasy]
Warhammer, Frankenstein, Marry Shelley [Sci-Fi/Fantasy]
larrymcg421, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, Jules Vern [Sci-Fi/Fantasy]
Izulde, The Little Prince, Antonie de Sainte Expury [Children's]
Axxon, The Canterbury Tales, Jeoffrey Chaucer [Poem]


Round 8

Axxon, Where the Sidewalk Ends, Shel Silverstein [Children's]
Izulde, A Game of Thrones, George R.R. Martin [Fantasy/Sci-fi]
larrymcg421, The Histories of Herodotus, Herodotus [History]
Warhammer, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Edward Gibbon [History]
NoMyths, The Adventure of the Speckled Band, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle [Short Story]
DaddyTorgo, History of the Pelopennisian War, Thucydides
Maple Leafs, The Confessions of St. Augustine, St. Augustine of Hippo [Autobiography]
st.cronin, Light in August, William Faulkner [Fiction]
cartman, The Complete Calvin and Hobbes, Bill Watterson [Children's]
Chief Rum, Sweet Science, A.J. Libeling [Sports]


Round 9

Chief Rum, Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy, Isaac Newton [Non-Fiction]
cartman, The Twelve Caesars, Suetonius [Biography]
st.cronin, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Roald Dahl [Children's]
Maple Leafs, The Gift of the Magi, O. Henry [Short Story]
DaddyTorgo, Two Treatises of Government, John Locke [Non-Fiction]
NoMyths, The Civil War: A Narrative, Shelby Foote [History]
Warhammer, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith [Non-Fiction]
larrymcg421, Tarzan series, by Edgar Rice Burroughs [Series]
Izulde, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, William L. Shirer
Axxon, The Gulag Archipelago - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn [History]


Round 10

Axxon, The Autobiography of Alice B Toklas, Gertrude Stein [Autobiography]
Izulde, "The Snows of Kilimanjaro", Ernest Hemingway [Short Story]
larrymcg421, Eight Men Out, Eliot Asinof [Sports]
Warhammer, Winnie the Pooh, A. A. Milne [Children's]
NoMyths, The Catcher in the Rye, J.D. Salinger [Fiction]
DaddyTorgo, The Boys of Summer, Roger Kahn [Sports]
Maple Leafs, The Six Enneads, Plotinus [Series
st.cronin, Lucktown, Bryan Penberthy [Poem]
cartman, All The President's Men, Woodward and Bernstein [History]
Chief Rum, The Brothers Karamazov, Fyodor Dostoevsky [Fiction]



wademoore and Lathum graciously volunteered to drop out if the number surpassed 10. I was looking forward to seeing both of them participate, but it was easier on me to accept their offers and move on. :) This also allows me to discuss things behind the scenes with wade without an risk of impropriety. :D

This is starting on a Friday night, so I'm not going to push people to do much over the weekend. If you can make selections, that's fantastic, but I don't expect us to pick up much speed until Monday.

As mentioned in the previous thread, feel free to discuss choices, both observers and participants. Lively debate is expected and encouraged, but please don't give suggestions within the thread. Don't be that guy.

[Izulde]

I'm mos def looking forward to seeing how this rolls.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Autobiography: 1.1 A Man and His Sandwich, Pumpy Tudors
lol

[cartman]

lol

You plagarized HA!!!!one111one!!!

[Radii]

I'm mos def looking forward to seeing how this rolls.

+1

I'm just not strong enough when it comes to literature to participate, but I'm really looking forward to following this one, great idea for a draft.

[Chief Rum]

Wow, the pressure is on! I didn't expect to be the one setting precedent.

I have one book in mind. And it could fit in many places. I think I will place it where my knowledge is weakest.

The issue is...author. Is it various? Do I, by selecting this work, eliminate all other works by these various authors? The good news is, I don't think much else of what they wrote has survived the millenia.

The author could also be God. But he hasn't written too many bestsellers. I'll let lordscarlet determine if he will accept my "God" authorship, or if it should be "various".

Chief Rum selects...The Holy Bible by God

I will place this work in the History category. My intent is for this work to be as it is commonly accepted by the general Christian faith in today's world, where disagreements of inclusion or exclusion of particular books be settled by relying on that version which is closest to the Roman Catholic faith.

[Chief Rum]

Chief Rum's list


Fiction
Single Short Story
Poem
Fantasy/Science Fiction
Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially)
Sport Related
Children's
Non-Fiction
Biography/Autobiography
History--The Holy Bible by God (1.1)


Here's to follow lordscarlet's rules.

[MrBug708]

Should have been non-fiction :)

[DaddyTorgo]

I cry foul.

God didn't write the Bible. The bible is a compilation of many different letters and individual writings and stories.

[Chief Rum]

I cry foul.

God didn't write the Bible. The bible is a compilation of many different letters and individual writings and stories.

Those of faiths that use the Bible claim God inspired those different authors.

Putting aside faith, this is, whatever the source, a story told more or less chronologically of the history of the Jewish and then Christian faith. And this story has largely been held within one book since the 4th century. No one carries particular individual books or letters in the Bible. They carry and refer to The Bible itself as a whole.

So I would argue it is one work as a whole, which tells a history (which is why I put it where I did).

But I will leave it to lordscarlet to judge, and will select another work if he rules it cannot be used.

[Greyroofoo]

As an atheist I find the Bible to be mostly fiction, although there is some personal guidance tips to be found in there.

[Chief Rum]

As an atheist I find the Bible to be mostly fiction, although there is some personal guidance tips to be found in there.

See what I mean about several potential categories in which it could fit? :)

[MrBug708]

Maybe a spiritual section is needed? Lots of spiritual books

[Izulde]

The Old Testament is largely a historical record, sure, but the New Testament isn't a history in my opinion.

[Axxon]

Chief Rum's list


Fiction
Single Short Story
Poem
Fantasy/Science Fiction
Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially)
Sport Related
Children's
Non-Fiction
Biography/Autobiography
History--The Holy Bible by God (1.1)


Here's to follow lordscarlet's rules.

Wow, you made the very first play I considered and in the very category I would have placed it. I decided that I wouldn't though since I don't feel it has only one author. I certainly won't argue against it being accepted and I applaud the choice as appropriate as 1,1.

[Axxon]

As an atheist I find the Bible to be mostly fiction, although there is some personal guidance tips to be found in there.

I disagree. The bible is mostly history with a good bit of personal and practical guidance and a small amount of the supernatural mixed in.

Read the book. You'll find tons more war stories, murders, family feuds etc than you'll find water turning into wine though it's obvious which is going to sell more books. SHURG

Another thing, the New Testament is actually really old. I think it should be called the Old Testament and the Most Recent Testament.

Bonus points to the first to name where that came from. :)

[Chief Rum]

The Old Testament is largely a historical record, sure, but the New Testament isn't a history in my opinion.

On the contrary. While the time span covered is much shorter, the New Testament, in all four of the Gospels, clearly follows from the Christ's birth to his crucifixion and Resurrection. This is followed by the Acts, which detail the years immediately following, and then the Letters, which came later than that (although there is much argument as to the exact timing of the writing of the letters). And Revelations clearly deals with the end of all things, beyond which no story can go.

So there is certainly a chronological record being shared (and since most of it dealt with actual events-as related therein, and not the "predictions" of Revelations), it is still very much a historical record.

[NoMyths]

Which version are you going with, Chief? There have been several.

[Chief Rum]

Which version are you going with, Chief? There have been several.

I tried to address that above by stating that rather than going with a particular version, I was using the term of the Holy Bible in general, with any disagreements in form to turn to whichever version Roman Catholicism most closely follows today.

If I had to choose a version, I would probably go with King James, but I left it vague for the very reason that I thought naming a specific Bible version could lead to others selecting The International or The New Age or some other version, and that would only serve to muddy the waters.

In the end, I guess that is left to lordscarlet's discretion as well. If he allows me to submit the Holy Bible as a pick but requires me to pick a version, I will go with the King James Bible. But if he does all this, I hope he will not allow other versions of the Bible to be selected.

BTW, if he does forbid other similar selections, but allows the texts of other religions (like the Koran, which of course is wholely different from the Bible), I wonder how he will handle the Torah (sp?), the Jewish holy book? I am not Jewish, so I would not know, but my understanding is that it is essentially the Old Testament written in Hebrew, is it not?

[NoMyths]

That's where one of the problems lies, Chief. The Torah/Old Testament was published as a single work before any version of the Bible containing both it and the New Testament was published. It is still followed separately in the Jewish tradition, and thus doesn't merely form a series of chapters in one single text. Another issue is that the chapters have specific, identifiable authors in many cases (or at least attributed ones). To say that God "inspired" these writers doesn't attribute authorship so much as inspiration. It's a thorny issue.

My sense is that we are and should be required to point to a specific text, rather than lumping all versions of a text into a generalized name embracing all of them. As such, using the King James Bible is a decent bet. Arguments for other versions of the Bible would also be compelling.

I'm going to side with the argument for specificity, and so it would probably be a good idea to edit your pick to reflect the King James version.

[Chief Rum]

That's where one of the problems lies, Chief. The Torah/Old Testament was published as a single work before any version of the Bible containing both it and the New Testament was published. It is still followed separately in the Jewish tradition, and thus doesn't merely form a series of chapters in one single text. Another issue is that the chapters have specific, identifiable authors in many cases (or at least attributed ones). To say that God "inspired" these writers doesn't attribute authorship so much as inspiration. It's a thorny issue.

My sense is that we are and should be required to point to a specific text, rather than lumping all versions of a text into a generalized name embracing all of them. As such, using the King James Bible is a decent bet. Arguments for other versions of the Bible would also be compelling.

I'm going to side with the argument for specificity, and so it would probably be a good idea to edit your pick to reflect the King James version.

Well, as to your first issue, is the Torah, word for word, the Old Testament? Or are there any key differences? I knew one is written in Hebrew. Given the different languages, the different religious perspectives from which they come from, and the fact that the Bible has wholely new material not present in the Torah, I feel at least that it can be considered a distinct and separate work.

As for choosing a version, lordscarlet addresses this, mentioning later versions of a story (he specifically mentions anthologies, but I think this situation is analagous) not being separately available to different drafters. The fact is, there is only one original source material for this work, and it is as a whole known as The Holy Bible. Whichever version one chooses, it is merely an arbitrary version which chooses some parts of the original and rejects others, and which uses different word choices, as a result of both meaning, interpretation and translation issues.

It would be like choosing the English verson of Crime & Punishment. Is it not likely that the translation from Russian to English has lost some of the beauty in Dostoyevsky's word choice, which was perfected through his being raised in Russia and using that language his whole life? You could argue that the English and Russian versions are similar, but not exact. Would it then be fair for someone to select the Russian version and then another the English version? IMO, that would be a distinct violation of the intent of lordscarlet's rule prohibiting repeat choices.

The King James, the New Age, whatever--it was all parsed from the same original source material. I don't intend to claim a version of the Bible. I intend to claim the entire original work, from which all subsequent versions have been derived. And that was my original intent when I announced my choice (as I stated therein).

And there is no limitation on number of authors for a work, so far as I can tell. As long as the work is distinct and disparate, a stand alone, it should be eligible regardless of the number of authors. The Old Testament is largely written as first hand historical accounts. So while authors can't always be specifically named, I think it rises above "anonymity". And, throwing aside historical issues of proving authorship, it is reasonably stated in all New Testament books (the ones widely accepted, that is) who the author is.

And there are categories here where whole series are allowed to be selected. If this qualifies as a series, it could certainly be allowed under the precedent that series can be chosen in some cases. And it also qualifies as a single work (just written over a significant amount of time), as it has come to be contained in one bound book for centuries now (really, 1600 years as one book!)

[wade moore]

I told LS he should just eliminate the Bible.

I think for the exercise of this people are way overthinking it. I believe that Chief Rum handled this correctly and the spirit of this and other drafts would show that picking the Bible would eliminate the Bible and all of its incarnations from everyone else - whether it be the on epiece from a collection rule, the author rule, the version rule, etc. What challenge/fun is this if every single person can pick something from the Bible - which they could do if we go by NM's logic.

As for what category it goes into, I think the general deal with these drafts has been that there are no "rules" for the category. If you pick a "bad" category it should hurt you in the voting, but nothing prevents you from putting anything in a category (i distinctly remember some nonsensical pick from bucc in the music draft).

[JPhillips]

I think the authorship question is the thornier issue. Does this eliminate the Torah and the Koran as choices since they were also written by "God"?

[wade moore]

I think the authorship question is the thornier issue. Does this eliminate the Torah and the Koran as choices since they were also written by "God"?
That I can see.
I think there is a "better" author to use, but I think that "god" is relatively logical.

[st.cronin]

Hrm, I would have thought each book in the Bible should be its own selection, subject to authorship. Ie Exodus would eliminate Deuteronomy (both authored by Moses). I would have imagined that to be the fairest way to handle it.

[wade moore]

Hrm, I would have thought each book in the Bible should be its own selection, subject to authorship. Ie Exodus would eliminate Deuteronomy (both authored by Moses). I would have imagined that to be the fairest way to handle it.

So then everyone gets to use the bible?

Meh - totally kills the point imo.

[wade moore]

Dola:

Let me put it this way.

If someone chose [made up names] Joe's Travellin Show from The Stories of Bob by Bob Smith then no other stories from The Stories of Bob can be selected.

So, if someone did choose a specific book of the bible, it still eliminates the rest of the Bible.

[st.cronin]

So then everyone gets to use the bible?

Meh - totally kills the point imo.

I wasn't planning on using it at all. This is a literature draft.

[QuikSand]

Shortest. Path to Clusterfuck. Ever.

[lordscarlet]

OK. There is a lot of stuff to reply to, so I will quote none of it. I hope I cover everyone's questions, but if I miss something let me know.

Several of the rules were created specifically for The Bible. Some people thought the rules were designed to rule out the Bible as a selection, some people asked me to disallow it. I really didn't want to make a Bible rule, so I tried to write the rules in such a way that I could address it when it came up (almost inevitably as the first pick).

In reality this has played out exactly as I expected and planned for. So let me clear things up.

If you would like to choose "God" as the author, that is your decision to make. If the "voters" disagree you'll get punished in the winner selection. However, someone did bring up a point that I did not think of. Does this eliminate the Quran, the Book of Mormon, etc? Let me come back to that. To me, a very non-religious person who has never read a page of the Bible, the work "The Bible" refers to all of the books covered by the Christian faith. They are, in a way, a series. I suppose I should have made a rule that says "only one book from a series can be used." I considered it, but could not think of a series that had many different authors. Let's make this an official ruling that any book froma series discounts that series. This should somewhat clear up the whole Bible issue. As for which edition to use,I believe Chief Rum got this right. The wording of the rules is meant to assume there is one true original edition of a work. Translations (such as the King James Bible) are just reprints of the original (maybe a Direcotr's Cut, if you will). Authorship and categorization are up to the person making the selection, so I'm fine with Chief Rum's choices.

Having said that, we still have the issue of religious texts that are not followed by the Christian Faith but are meant as continuations of the Word of God. Honestly I'm not sure how to handle those. I'm tempted to cover those under the "one book in a series" rule that I just created. If that seems wholly unfair, please let me know. As Wade mentioned, my intention was that if someone chose "Exodus" the next person could not choose "Levidicus". I thought it possible that someone would choose one "story" from the Bible and that would close out the Bible for everyone.

It's possible this argument will cover other books, but I don't want to think about it and mention them, because they may be on someone's list. I suppose in a way I have made a set of "Bible Rules" rather than discounting the bible altogether. However, I don't see how we can have a lively debate about the Bible as literature if I disallow it. :)

[st.cronin]

Its my opinion that drafting The Bible is akin to drafting "20th century French poets." I think that pick is very weak.

[sabotai]

Shortest. Path to Clusterfuck. Ever.

The most predictable as well.

[Izulde]

The problem with assuming an original Bible is that there's no consensus agreement on what the original Bible is. Different denominations have different books, even. Plus you throw in the whole argument about lost gospels, etc and that complicates the picture even further.

I also take issue with the idea that the Bible is divinely inspired, indicated by God as the author. That assumes monotheism as the "correct" faith.

[JPhillips]

"20th century French poets." I think that pick is very weak.

19th century would be much stronger!

[Izulde]

oh and I'm not saying the pick should be disallowed... that's obviously LS's call to make and he's made it.

I'm just saying I have problems with its selection as such.

[wade moore]

I think st. cronin and Izulde are making arguments for why it may be a "bad" pick rather than a disallowed pick fwiw.

[lordscarlet]

oh and I'm not saying the pick should be disallowed... that's obviously LS's call to make and he's made it.

I'm just saying I have problems with its selection as such.

I think you should just remember that when it comes time to pick a winner. As Wade said, I don't want 15 different selections from the greater works of the Bible selected. I also don't want to rule out religious texts if people would like to choose them.

[lordscarlet]

OK. I am headed out for a large portion of the day. I hope I settled the Bible argument to most people's satisfaction. I won't be checking the board too much, but I will have email access. Feel free to write me at fofc at idledreams dot net and I can hop onto the board if necessary.

[Izulde]

I think st. cronin and Izulde are making arguments for why it may be a "bad" pick rather than a disallowed pick fwiw.

Pretty much. :)

[st.cronin]

I think st. cronin and Izulde are making arguments for why it may be a "bad" pick rather than a disallowed pick fwiw.

Yes, thank you. :) I think its a poor pick, particularly for that category.

[Izulde]

I think you should just remember that when it comes time to pick a winner. As Wade said, I don't want 15 different selections from the greater works of the Bible selected. I also don't want to rule out religious texts if people would like to choose them.

Fair enough :)

[cartman]

cartman's list:

1. Fiction
2. Single Short Story
3. Poem
4. Fantasy/Science Fiction
5. Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially) - The Lord of The Rings Trilogy (Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King), J.R.R. Tolkein
6. Sport Related
7. Children's
8. Non-Fiction
9. Biography/Autobiography
10. History

[Buccaneer]

The Old Testament is largely a historical record, sure, but the New Testament isn't a history in my opinion.

Guess you have never read the Book of Acts.

[MrDNA]

Cartman with a very strong pick. IMO, there are really only three or four strong series choices, so it was an excellent pick to grab one in the first round.

[st.cronin]

Cartman, I was told by lord scarlet that that pick would not count as a series, that its considered one book.

[MrDNA]

dola - is it bad form to suggest what the other good series picks might be? I feel like that is a bit close to tampering...

[Axxon]

Guess you have never read the Book of Acts.

Rumor is you had a hand in writing that one. ;)

[Buccaneer]

st.cronin is correct. It was simply the publisher's choice to break it apart. Not knowing all of Tolkien, are his other related books considered part of a Middle Earth collection or series, or were they just individual books around a central theme?

[st.cronin]

dola - is it bad form to suggest what the other good series picks might be? I feel like that is a bit close to tampering...

Yes. :)

[Axxon]

Cartman, I was told by lord scarlet that that pick would not count as a series, that its considered one book.

How can that be? It's not one book.

[Buccaneer]

I just realized I could also be describing the Scriptures (individual books around a central theme) but as Chief said, a person of faith believes this collection to be a canon.

[cartman]

Cartman, I was told by lord scarlet that that pick would not count as a series, that its considered one book.

I guess we'll have to wait for a public ruling then, as his description of the category fits those books to a T. Yes, it was conceived as a single work, but for obvious reasons was split into three titles for publishing, and the release dates of each book were separated by a period of time as well (July 1954, Sept. 1954, and Oct. 1955)

[st.cronin]

Cartman, as I mentioned in a pm, lord scarlet explicitly rejected that choice when it was on a list I submitted to him. There was no room left for interpretation.

[MrDNA]

Two picks, two controversies - if they came out as separate books, no matter whose choice it was, doesn't that make it a series of books?

[BYU 14]

Only 36 posts on Chief Rums first pick before Cartman selected......Next time try and drum up a little more controversy Chief ;)

LOTR an excellent choice BTW.

[st.cronin]

This is the text of his pm to me:

Oh, and just a heads up: I do believe Lord of the Rings is technically one book. The "trilogy" is really just 3 chapters. I don't know if that is going to come up and be a problem with people or not.

Not quite as clearcut a ruling as I remembered.

[cartman]

Really, isn't any story that is published in separate books that is supposed to be read in a sequential order "one book"?

[st.cronin]

If cartman is happy with his pick, I'm ready to go. But I would like him to confirm that he's sticking with that pick.

[Axxon]

st.cronin is correct. It was simply the publisher's choice to break it apart. Not knowing all of Tolkien, are his other related books considered part of a Middle Earth collection or series, or were they just individual books around a central theme?

So, we're going to disregard physical reality and arbitrarily decide what something was supposed to be rather than what it actually was when it was created? I understand the attempt but think it's a bit misguided and needlessly complicated.

I content that Moby Dick was originally intended to be a short story about a tuna fisherman and a rogue dolphin and I object to it being categorized as anything else. If I create a wiki I can get a cite to back me up on that even.

I don't care for that much subjectivity in the rules since it moves the discussion from the value of the literature itself and puts it on the trivia around it.

[st.cronin]

Personally, I think its a valid pick. But lord scarlet does make a good point - Tolkien repeatedly denied that it was a trilogy, he insisted it was one book, published in three volumes.

[Izulde]

This gets into the question of authorial intent (Normally a BS argument, but in this case valid apparently) vs. popular opinion.

Yes, Tolkien evidently viewed it as one book, published in 3 volumes, but I would argue that because it was published in 3 volumes, that makes it a series, to say nothing of the repeated mention of it in popular culture for sure, possibly even critical circles (this one I'm not sure on), as a trilogy.

Furthermore, if we view LotR as one book, what of other texts that are arguably one book, but done in volume form? Are they one book or are they a series?

[Greyroofoo]

its amazing how fast a draft can go down the shithole

[Axxon]

As you might imagine. I vote that Cartman's choice stand if he still wants that choice and it comes to a vote.

[cartman]

Yep, I'm sticking with LotR as my pick, so feel free to make yours, st.c.

[st.cronin]

"His soul swooned slowly as he heard the snow falling faintly through the universe and faintly falling, like the descent of their last end, upon all the living and the dead." - James Joyce, The Dead

Widely considered the greatest short story ever written, and concluding with what some have described as the greatest sentence ever composed in the English language, Joyce's The Dead topped my ranking of short stories, with a massive gap between #1 and #2. This would have been my pick had I had the first overall pick, too.

1. Fiction
2. Single Short Story - The Dead, James Joyce
3. Poem
4. Fantasy/Science Fiction
5. Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially)
6. Sport Related
7. Children's
8. Non-Fiction
9. Biography/Autobiography
10. History

[Warhammer]

I would just like to point out that LotR is not really a series per se. It was one book released in sections.

Minor point, but I think in this day and age that is probably the strongest pick for #1.

[Warhammer]

Wow, I've never even heard of The Dead before...

[Warhammer]

I think we need to stick with authorial intent in the case of what category a book is in. There have been books that have been released chapter by chapter in magazines. That does not make that a series even though it was released piecemeal, nor does it make that book a series of short stories.

[MrDNA]

Short story is a tough category - really only one sprang to my mind when I was brainstorming - but it sure wasn't "the Dead" :) Maybe a good pick, but probably one you could have waited on and nabbed a more popular author in the first round.

[sabotai]

I think we need to stick with authorial intent in the case of what category a book is in. There have been books that have been released chapter by chapter in magazines. That does not make that a series even though it was released piecemeal, nor does it make that book a series of short stories.

But the rules stated that being published in a magazine doesn't count. From the rules:

Must be published in a book. This is an unfortunate rule that has been made to reduce shenanigans. Each work must be published in a book, not a periodical (or book anthologizing a specific periodical). Publication year will be based on the first time published in a book.

Since the first time LOTR was published in a book, it was published in 3 books, I'd say it counts as a series. People can argue and debate over the author's original intent, you can't argue over how it was originally published.

[st.cronin]

Short story is a tough category - really only one sprang to my mind when I was brainstorming - but it sure wasn't "the Dead" :) Maybe a good pick, but probably one you could have waited on and nabbed a more popular author in the first round.

PM me what you had, I'm curious.

[Eaglesfan27]

The Dead is an excellent story, but I think it was a reach this early in the draft.

[Axxon]

I think we need to stick with authorial intent in the case of what category a book is in. There have been books that have been released chapter by chapter in magazines. That does not make that a series even though it was released piecemeal, nor does it make that book a series of short stories.

To be clear, if we can find a cite showing that the author intended a book be released in a different year than it was we will use that year instead of the published year as well?

I know it's not about the category but if we are actually going to use intent as the criteria then why not use it for all the criteria.

Honestly though, it seems better to use objective criteria rather than subjective criteria so again, the focus is on the work itself.

[Izulde]

The Dead is an excellent story, but I think it was a reach this early in the draft.

I agree.

Though I'm a little disappointed that this knocks out all the rest of Joyce. Ulysses and Portrait of the Artist As A Young Man were worthy candidates to appear in someone's Fiction category.

[timmynausea]

I don't think The Dead is a big reach there, really. Cronin gets one of the elite names in literature in one of the tougher categories to fill.

[Super Ugly]

2. Single Short Story - The Dead, James Joyce


Ooh, nice pick. The Dead is one of my favourite short stories.

Awesome idea for a draft - I'll enjoy following this one. :)

[Izulde]

I don't think The Dead is a big reach there, really. Cronin gets one of the elite names in literature in one of the tougher categories to fill.

To me, it's actually one of the easiest categories to fill.

I can think of at least three or four high-quality candidates just off the top of my head.

[Axxon]

Wow, I've never even heard of The Dead before...

BTW, as a public service. I won't quote as it's the entire story.

hxxp://www.online-literature.com/james_joyce/958/

[Axxon]

To me, it's actually one of the easiest categories to fill.

I can think of at least three or four high-quality candidates just off the top of my head.

I know. At first I thought it might be hard but I have my shortlist and I'll get an A List guy here most likely.

[MrBug708]

For me, it is Araby

[Warhammer]

To me, it's actually one of the easiest categories to fill.

I can think of at least three or four high-quality candidates just off the top of my head.

Agreed. Once I thought about things, it really is one of the easiest categories to fill.

[Calis]

dola - is it bad form to suggest what the other good series picks might be? I feel like that is a bit close to tampering...

Did you SEE the video game draft? People were massacred for doing such things. :)

Interesting draft, I'm anxious to follow it if it doesn't veer too far off course..and I think the worst was put out of the way early so that's good.

[Chief Rum]

st.cronin is correct. It was simply the publisher's choice to break it apart. Not knowing all of Tolkien, are his other related books considered part of a Middle Earth collection or series, or were they just individual books around a central theme?

This is certainly something to consider, but I can think of at least one other Tolkien work that could find its way into this draft.

[Izulde]

This is certainly something to consider, but I can think of at least one other Tolkien work that could find its way into this draft.

Nope. Once an author's taken, none of their other works can be used.

[st.cronin]

This is certainly something to consider, but I can think of at least one other Tolkien work that could find its way into this draft.

Not anymore. One work per author.

[Axxon]

This is certainly something to consider, but I can think of at least one other Tolkien work that could find its way into this draft.

Not any more it can't. ;)

Unless you have one of Christopher's works in mind.

[Chief Rum]

PM me what you had, I'm curious.

Please do not do this. That would be tampering.

[Axxon]

Please do not do this. That would be tampering.

How so? He isn't eligible to pick in the category again and it's being done in private in any case. Do we have a no private discussions rule i am unaware of?

[Chief Rum]

For me, it is Araby

:rolleyes: I really hope this doesn't become a draft where the masses are making our choices before we get to them.

[st.cronin]

Eh, I did get a couple of pms Chief but nothing that would change any of my future picks. But I'm ok if we make that a rule.

[st.cronin]

:rolleyes: I really hope this doesn't become a draft where the masses are making our choices before we get to them.

Don't worry, Araby is no longer eligible. :D

[Chief Rum]

How so? He isn't eligible to pick in the category again and it's being done in private in any case. Do we have a no private discussions rule i am unaware of?

Do you know what choice he was considering, or what author? What if the author he tosses out has a strory that could fit in different categories, and then based on that PM, he selects that story and eliminates that author for everyone else. What if that author was also the writer of a work I was waiting to use with my pick (two picks after hios next one)?

That seems to be textbook tampering to me.

I really think we need to be discussing only the picks made, and after the picks, we can discuss the work of the authors selected, as they will then be ineligible.

[Chief Rum]

Nope. Once an author's taken, none of their other works can be used.

So, can only one work from an author be used? (this is facetious, I forgot, and was amused I got three automatic responses...)

[st.cronin]

Do you know what choice he was considering, or what author? What if the author he tosses out has a strory that could fit in different categories, and then based on that PM, he selects that story and eliminates that author for everyone else. What if that author was also the writer of a work I was waiting to use with my pick (two picks after hios next one)?

That seems to be textbook tampering to me.

I really think we need to be discussing only the picks made, and after the picks, we can discuss the work of the authors selected, as they will then be ineligible.

The pms I got were only about the category I had already picked in.

[Chief Rum]

Don't worry, Araby is no longer eligible. :D

Heh...I'm not as familiar with Joyce's works (I probably could only have picked out Ulysses for sure to start).

I do hope people don't throw out "suggestions", though.

[Chief Rum]

The pms I got were only about the category I had already picked in.

Oh, I believe you, cronin, no more defending of PMs needed on my account. Axxon seemed to have doubts about my point, though, so I felt I needed to respond to him more at length.

[Axxon]

Do you know what choice he was considering, or what author? What if the author he tosses out has a strory that could fit in different categories, and then based on that PM, he selects that story and eliminates that author for everyone else. What if that author was also the writer of a work I was waiting to use with my pick (two picks after hios next one)?

That seems to be textbook tampering to me.

I really think we need to be discussing only the picks made, and after the picks, we can discuss the work of the authors selected, as they will then be ineligible.

He had already made the choice so it didn't matter. Sure, someone could have tipped him off to another author but that can be said with any discussion. For the record, I was one of the PM's and was very sure this author isn't going to pop up in any other categories.

So, going forward, participants are not allowed any discussions about the draft outside of this thread? I don't mind but we need to set that rule now as I didn't think it was implied and I didn't mean to cause controversy. I just was enjoying discussing what was a safe move with someone who couldn't any longer use it.

[Maple Leafs]

Sorry for the delay...

Fiction: 1.4 Hamlet, by William Shakespeare
Single Short Story
Poem
Fantasy/Science Fiction
Series
Sport Related
Children's
Non-Fiction
Biography/Autobiography
History

Label your selection like so:

[st.cronin]

Solid.

[Chief Rum]

He had already made the choice so it didn't matter. Sure, someone could have tipped him off to another author but that can be said with any discussion. For the record, I was one of the PM's and was very sure this author isn't going to pop up in any other categories.

So, going forward, participants are not allowed any discussions about the draft outside of this thread? I don't mind but we need to set that rule now as I didn't think it was implied and I didn't mean to cause controversy. I just was enjoying discussing what was a safe move with someone who couldn't any longer use it.

I'm glad you're sure. I don't see why it should be an issue to not do this.

As I told you, I don't know what suggestion you made and can't judge whether it might affect his other picks or other categories. For all I know, that will end up affecting his choices later on, whether he says so or not.

Discuss the draft all you want outside of the thread. Just if you are speaking with someone actually in the draft, you should probably avoid talking about other works by other other authors, regardless of category. If you want to talk about that specific work, go for it. If you want to talk about that author, that is fine as well. If you want to bring up another work by an author who has already been selected, that's another way to go. I don't think it's too much to ask that you need do anything that could be construed as tampering.

This is all for fun, but there is some competitive intent here, and I believe we should honor that intent.

[Izulde]

Interesting.

Not the one I'd have chosen for Shakespeare, but interesting.

[DaddyTorgo]

Fiction
Single Short Story
Poem
Fantasy/Science Fiction
Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially) The Foundation Series, Isaac Asimov
Sport Related
Children's
Non-Fiction
Biography/Autobiography
History

[Izulde]

Asimov as a 1st round pick? :eek:

[Axxon]

Oh, I believe you, cronin, no more defending of PMs needed on my account. Axxon seemed to have doubts about my point, though, so I felt I needed to respond to him more at length.

The point I was wondering about was the fact that he couldn't use the information though and I think you had missed that part but I do want clarification so we don't run into this in a less cut and dry situation.

[Chief Rum]

Sorry for the delay...

Fiction: 1.4 Hamlet, by William Shakespeare
Single Short Story
Poem
Fantasy/Science Fiction
Series
Sport Related
Children's
Non-Fiction
Biography/Autobiography
History

Label your selection like so:

Yup, I was wondering what work of his would be chosen, and this had the inside track in my mind. Romeo & Juliet was the other one, but I feel that is much more a "popular" choice, as opposed to a critical choice. Not that Romeo & Juliet is not an accomplished work, and almost certainly the most well-known tragic love story. But there are underlying psychological motivations and brilliant word choices that, IMO, elevate other Shakespeare works like Hamlet, Macbeth and Othello over Romeo & Juliet.

[Maple Leafs]

Not the one I'd have chosen for Shakespeare, but interesting.
The problem with Shakespeare is that he doesn't fit well into any one category. And most of them have some sort of historical or non-fictional element which makes them even tougher to slot in.

Macbeth would have worked too. Perhaps Romeo and Juliet. But I don't see much difference between those and Hamlet as far the draft goes.

[st.cronin]

I like that pick, too.

[DaddyTorgo]

Asimov as a 1st round pick? :eek:

two reasons: a shortage of "series", and the inherent geeky nature of the denizens of the internet. Plus, he's a seminal author, and it was one of the first real classic series that launched a genre.

[Chief Rum]

The point I was wondering about was the fact that he couldn't use the information though and I think you had missed that part but I do want clarification so we don't run into this in a less cut and dry situation.

No, I caught that the first time and the second time you brought it up. If your suggestion was a work by the same author, why not just say it here? If it is from another author, regardless it is a PM that should not happen, because that particular work might fit in another category (many of which do not necessarily exclude short stories), or that other author might have other works that draftee had not considered until the author was mentioned to him.

That is potentially affecting his future picks, and that's why I am against it. And it's not about trusting what you and cronin say about the choice or its effect. I can trust you both completely, and it still should be a rule, because we can't with 100% certainty extend that trust from everyone to everyone.

And, yes, I do want clairification.

[wade moore]

Solid choices so far imo. I think the Tolkien controversy is not a big deal - seems like another one that the voters should decide on rather than the rules. If you think it's not a true series, then let it hurt that "team" in the voting.

I'm somewhat surprised Asimov goes this early - let alone not in the sci-fi category, but he's certainly a name author.

[Axxon]

I'm glad you're sure. I don't see why it should be an issue to not do this.

As I told you, I don't know what suggestion you made and can't judge whether it might affect his other picks or other categories. For all I know, that will end up affecting his choices later on, whether he says so or not.

Discuss the draft all you want outside of the thread. Just if you are speaking with someone actually in the draft, you should probably avoid talking about other works by other other authors, regardless of category. If you want to talk about that specific work, go for it. If you want to talk about that author, that is fine as well. If you want to bring up another work by an author who has already been selected, that's another way to go. I don't think it's too much to ask that you need do anything that could be construed as tampering.

This is all for fun, but there is some competitive intent here, and I believe we should honor that intent.

Never said it was a problem, just wanted a clarification and you're right, who I told him could technically be chosen again but hey, if he did, it would hurt him more than help him honestly.

[st.cronin]

DT, that's a solid pick imo. 'Twas high on my board.

[Izulde]

The problem with Shakespeare is that he doesn't fit well into any one category. And most of them have some sort of historical or non-fictional element which makes them even tougher to slot in.

Macbeth would have worked too. Perhaps Romeo and Juliet. But I don't see much difference between those and Hamlet as far the draft goes.

I'd have chosen Othello for my own personal bias, but yeah, there's a number of plays and poems that would've worked for a few different categories.

[Izulde]

two reasons: a shortage of "series", and the inherent geeky nature of the denizens of the internet. Plus, he's a seminal author, and it was one of the first real classic series that launched a genre.

Ahh, that makes it a little more sense.

[Chief Rum]

Asimov as a 1st round pick? :eek:

He may not have the exquisite word choice and writing style of a classic, but there is no doubting he is a giant of science fiction and an amazing story teller.

I figured he would be gone, but disappointed anyway, as it was my intent to make Nightfall, one of the greatest scifi stories written, IMO, as my short story choice.

[Chief Rum]

Never said it was a problem, just wanted a clarification and you're right, who I told him could technically be chosen again but hey, if he did, it would hurt him more than help him honestly.

Interesting. When this is all done,. I will be interested to know who you discussed with him.

[Axxon]

Yup, I was wondering what work of his would be chosen, and this had the inside track in my mind. Romeo & Juliet was the other one, but I feel that is much more a "popular" choice, as opposed to a critical choice. Not that Romeo & Juliet is not an accomplished work, and almost certainly the most well-known tragic love story. But there are underlying psychological motivations and brilliant word choices that, IMO, elevate other Shakespeare works like Hamlet, Macbeth and Othello over Romeo & Juliet.

I was planning to choose Sonnet 18. Famous, and would have given a poet category and leave fiction open but this is good too. I prefer Macbeth, Othello, and King Lear better among the non histories though.

[Chief Rum]

The problem with Shakespeare is that he doesn't fit well into any one category. And most of them have some sort of historical or non-fictional element which makes them even tougher to slot in.

Macbeth would have worked too. Perhaps Romeo and Juliet. But I don't see much difference between those and Hamlet as far the draft goes.

I might have put Shakespeare in poetry. :)

Too bad this takes out his sonnets, some of which were brilliant.

[st.cronin]

Personally I thought Shakespeare would go in the series category - the Prince Hal plays, for example.

[Chief Rum]

I was planning to choose Sonnet 18. Famous, and would have given a poet category and leave fiction open but this is good too. I prefer Macbeth, Othello, and King Lear better among the non histories though.

Heh, we crossposted about sonnets. I forget which one is Sonnet 18. I'll have to go look it up.

[Chief Rum]

Solid choices so far imo. I think the Tolkien controversy is not a big deal - seems like another one that the voters should decide on rather than the rules. If you think it's not a true series, then let it hurt that "team" in the voting.

I'm somewhat surprised Asimov goes this early - let alone not in the sci-fi category, but he's certainly a name author.

Both Asimov and Tolkien go in the "series" category, instead of the fantasy/scifi category. Although the prevalence of series in that genre probably means it will dominate the series section.

[Axxon]

He may not have the exquisite word choice and writing style of a classic, but there is no doubting he is a giant of science fiction and an amazing story teller.

I figured he would be gone, but disappointed anyway, as it was my intent to make Nightfall, one of the greatest scifi stories written, IMO, as my short story choice.

Sniff, Sniff, I had him for autobiography. Two of my top choices already taken. Makes it harder but way more fun and interesting than I had hoped for.

[Chief Rum]

Just looked up Sonnet 18. Of course, yes, that would been a very good choice.

[Axxon]

Heh, we crossposted about sonnets. I forget which one is Sonnet 18. I'll have to go look it up.

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:

[wade moore]

Both Asimov and Tolkien go in the "series" category, instead of the fantasy/scifi category. Although the prevalence of series in that genre probably means it will dominate the series section.Good point on the crossover there.

[Chief Rum]

Sniff, Sniff, I had him for autobiography. Two of my top choices already taken. Makes it harder but way more fun and interesting than I had hoped for.

What autobiography would you have chosen? I'll admit I haven't ever read any of his nonfiction, and off the top of my head, I thought he mostly wrote scientific text books and texts with his nonfiction work.

I'll have to read The Dead to see how it compares to Nightfall. :)

[Axxon]

What autobiography would you have chosen? I'll admit I haven't ever read any of his nonfiction, and off the top of my head, I thought he mostly wrote scientific text books and texts with his nonfiction work.

I'll have to read The Dead to see how it compares to Nightfall. :)

His own of course but it fits as a series too because he wrote it in two books.

In Memory Yet Green, 1979
In Joy Still Felt 1980

Oh, and he has a book in every category of the dewey decimal system except one so he was going somewhere. :D

[Chief Rum]

His own of course but it fits as a series too because he wrote it in two books.

In Memory Yet Green, 1979
In Joy Still Felt 1980

Oh, and he has a book in every category of the dewey decimal system except one so he was going somewhere. :D

lol...the meaning of this word autobiography, what is it again?

(tries and fails to wipe egg off face)

[NoMyths]

1. Fiction
2. Single Short Story
3. Poem:
4. Fantasy/Science Fiction
5. Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially)
6. Sport Related
7. Children's
8. Non-Fiction 1.6 - On the Origin of Species, Charles Darwin
9. Biography/Autobiography
10. History

No time for lengthy commentary (or the full title), but this is one of the most important scientific works in human history. From Wiki:
"Charles Darwin's On the Origin of Species (published 1859) is a seminal work in scientific literature and arguably the pivotal work in evolutionary biology.[1] The book's full title is On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life, while for the 6th edition of 1872 the title was changed to The Origin of Species.[2] It introduced the theory that populations evolve over the course of generations through a process of natural selection. Darwin's book was the culmination of evidence he had accumulated on the voyage of the Beagle in the 1830s and expanded through continuing investigations and experiments since his return.[3]

The book is readable even for the non-specialist and attracted widespread interest on publication. The book was controversial because it contradicted religious beliefs that underlay the then current theories of biology, and it generated much discussion on scientific, philosophical, and religious grounds. The scientific theory of evolution has itself evolved since Darwin first presented it, but natural selection remains the most widely accepted scientific model of how species evolve. The at-times bitter creation-evolution controversy continues to this day."

[Axxon]

I'm actually pretty fired up to be last since I like getting two picks in a row. :)

Origin of Species is an interesting choice. Can't knock it but I wouldn't have put it in the first round though.

[Izulde]

Great pick for the Non-Fiction category, but strikes me as a bit early.

[st.cronin]

I think Darwin's a reach, myself.

[Chief Rum]

Origin of the Species was one I was thinking of selecting later to counter my Bible pick. I think getting a good spread that appeals to many will do better in the final voting.

I don't know that I would have selected it here, either, but NM is dead on that its historical importance cannot be overstated.

[wade moore]

Non-Fiction is an interesting category for me. I have a feeling those waiting until round 8 or 9 to fill this will find the pickings pretty slim.

[Buccaneer]

It's a really good thing I am not in this contest, going up against literature snobs and scifi geeks. :)

[Axxon]

It's a really good thing I am not in this contest, going up against literature snobs and scifi geeks. :)

Hey, I resemble those remarks.

Both of them. :)

[wade moore]

It's a really good thing I am not in this contest, going up against literature snobs and scifi geeks. :)+1 ;)...

[st.cronin]

I'm very excited, my #2 overall is still available.

[Izulde]

I'm very excited, my #2 overall is still available.

Now watch, you'll have jinxed yourself. :D

[Axxon]

I'm very excited, my #2 overall is still available.

If it's the one you PM'ed me you're so screwed.




I kid, I kid. :D

[Warhammer]

Aw crap....

I need ot think about this since Asimov is what I was going with here...

[DaddyTorgo]

woohoo

[Warhammer]

Seldom can you say that a poem has completely changed all literature and culture that came after it. However, my first round pick you can credibly argue that it did. My first round pick in the FOFC Literary Draft is:

Poem - The Iliad by Homer

Fiction
Single Short Story
Poem - 1.7 The Iliad - Homer
Fantasy/Science Fiction
Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially)
Sport Related
Children's
Non-Fiction
Biography/Autobiography
History

[DaddyTorgo]

nice pick warhammer. That was definitely on my list.

[Warhammer]

The interesting thing about Asimov being used for a series is that he really puts a dent in what can be used in sci-fi and short stories. The only issue I have with Foundation is that the series went downhill after the fourth book. But, I think the original Foundation Trilogy is one of the best series of all time.

EDIT: You could also have argued the Robot Trilogy as well. But Foundation is the better known trilogy as well.

[Warhammer]

nice pick warhammer. That was definitely on my list.

Thanks. You really messed up my draft strategy with your pick, but I think I can recover!

[Chief Rum]

Seldom can you say that a poem has completely changed all literature and culture that came after it. However, my first round pick you can credibly argue that it did. My first round pick in the FOFC Literary Draft is:

Poem - The Iliad by Homer

Fiction
Single Short Story
Poem - 1.7 The Iliad - Homer
Fantasy/Science Fiction
Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially)
Sport Related
Children's
Non-Fiction
Biography/Autobiography
History

Interesting. I had thought a lot about that one, and in that very category. Of course, it is a very long poem, and everyone knows that, but I thought the fact that it has full-fledged story elements would end up putting it in Fiction or (even more boldly) History.

[Chief Rum]

The interesting thing about Asimov being used for a series is that he really puts a dent in what can be used in sci-fi and short stories. The only issue I have with Foundation is that the series went downhill after the fourth book. But, I think the original Foundation Trilogy is one of the best series of all time.

EDIT: You could also have argued the Robot Trilogy as well. But Foundation is the better known trilogy as well.

He puts a dent in them, yes, but I am not too concerned about filling those categories myself. The depth of literature in history, in all its forms, means that there should remain excellent choices throughout the draft, in all categories, IMO.

[larrymcg421]

1. Fiction - 1.8 The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, Mark Twain
2. Single Short Story
3. Poem
4. Fantasy/Science Fiction
5. Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially)
6. Sport Related
7. Children's
8. Non-Fiction
9. Biography/Autobiography
10. History

This was actually my #1 pick going in, so I'm glad it's still around at #8. Obviously a seminal classic, and probably the single best example of American fiction.

[Izulde]

Great pick! It's one I strongly considered when my turn came around.

[Izulde]

dola, I meant the Illiad was great pick :)

[Axxon]

1. Fiction - 1.8 The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, Mark Twain
2. Single Short Story
3. Poem
4. Fantasy/Science Fiction
5. Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially)
6. Sport Related
7. Children's
8. Non-Fiction
9. Biography/Autobiography
10. History

Nice, I was going to take him in my picks so you just beat me to it.

[Axxon]

dola, I meant the Illiad was great pick :)

Oh, you're such a Homer.

[Izulde]

1. Fiction
2. Single Short Story
3. Poem 1.9 "The Wasteland" - T.S. Eliot
4. Fantasy/Science Fiction
5. Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially)
6. Sport Related
7. Children's
8. Non-Fiction
9. Biography/Autobiography
10. History

Love, hate it, but you can't deny the power, epicness, beauty and influence of The Wasteland. It was a poem that influenced generations of poets long after him and even today, there's college courses where the entire syllabus deals with just this poem.

The magnum opus of one the greatest poets of all time.

[Chief Rum]

All good choices, these recent ones.

[DaddyTorgo]

1. Fiction
2. Single Short Story
3. Poem 1.9 "The Wasteland" - T.S. Eliot
4. Fantasy/Science Fiction
5. Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially)
6. Sport Related
7. Children's
8. Non-Fiction
9. Biography/Autobiography
10. History

Love, hate it, but you can't deny the power, epicness, beauty and influence of The Wasteland. It was a poem that influenced generations of poets long after him and even today, there's college courses where the entire syllabus deals with just this poem.

The magnum opus of one the greatest poets of all time.

darn. I was totally going to try to get to that next time around.

[ThunderingHERD]

Is "The Wasteland" anything like "The Waste Land"?

[st.cronin]

I once had somebody drunk-dial me and read The Wasteland to my answering machine.

[Axxon]

1. Fiction
2. Single Short Story
3. Poem
4. Fantasy/Science Fiction
5. Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially)
6. Sport Related
7. Children's
8. Non-Fiction Danse Macabre - Steven King
9. Biography/Autobiography
10. History

I couldn't resist the temptation to snag one of the most popular writers of all time and it is even better since this is a fascinating study of the horror field and into the mind of the man who filled us with it.

[Izulde]

darn. I was totally going to try to get to that next time around.

I'm honestly surprised it didn't go earlier.

[DaddyTorgo]

I'm honestly surprised it didn't go earlier.

I considered it, but think there are fewer "great series" that are recognizable than there are great poems.

[cartman]

I once had somebody drunk-dial me and read The Wasteland to my answering machine.

Sorry about that.

[Izulde]

Ugh, in my still flu-struck state, I misspelled The Waste Land. Would you guys mind if I went back and fixed the title?

[st.cronin]

I think everybody knew what you meant, I don't see the harm in editing it.

[Chief Rum]

1. Fiction
2. Single Short Story
3. Poem
4. Fantasy/Science Fiction
5. Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially)
6. Sport Related
7. Children's
8. Non-Fiction Danse Macabre - Steven King
9. Biography/Autobiography
10. History

I couldn't resist the temptation to snag one of the most popular writers of all time and it is even better since this is a fascinating study of the horror field and into the mind of the man who filled us with it.

I have not read Danse Macabre, and I don't doubt you when you say this about it. But I must admit I am disappointed that this is the selection that ends up eliminating all of his other works, among which might have included On Writing (as either Non-fiction or Autobiography), several amazing possibilities for Fiction and Short Story, and lastly, the Dark Tower series for either series or scifi/fantasy.

Having not read Danse Macabre, I cannot say whether it deserves its first round pick (for which it may very well be deserving). Just disappointed this is the choice for King.

[DaddyTorgo]

I have not read Danse Macabre, and I don't doubt you when you say this about it. But I must admit I am disappointed that this is the selection that ends up eliminating all of his other works, among which might have included On Writing (as either Non-fiction or Autobiography), several amazing possibilities for Fiction and Short Story, and lastly, the Dark Tower series for either series or scifi/fantasy.

Having not read Danse Macabre, I cannot say whether it deserves its first round pick (for which it may very well be deserving). Just disappointed this is the choice for King.

well that's the way of it, isn't it?

[Axxon]

I have not read Danse Macabre, and I don't doubt you when you say this about it. But I must admit I am disappointed that this is the selection that ends up eliminating all of his other works, among which might have included On Writing (as either Non-fiction or Autobiography), several amazing possibilities for Fiction and Short Story, and lastly, the Dark Tower series for either series or scifi/fantasy.

Having not read Danse Macabre, I cannot say whether it deserves its first round pick (for which it may very well be deserving). Just disappointed this is the choice for King.

But isn't part of the strategy to gather the best authors we can? It's easier to fill other categories and while this isn't a top ten book it's a worthy non fiction entry I'd say so I was going with strategy.

[Buccaneer]

So is the overall strategy is get the works only a few heard of out of the way in the first two rounds and leave the more obvious stuff for later?

[Buccaneer]

I mean, as a voter, I will be looking more at the works themselves and not the author.

[Chief Rum]

But isn't part of the strategy to gather the best authors we can? It's easier to fill other categories and while this isn't a top ten book it's a worthy non fiction entry I'd say so I was going with strategy.

If so, then I have misunderstood lordscarlet's intent. I thoguht we were drafting the best works of fiction, not the best authors. If we were selecting best authors, why even mention specific works of fiction?

[Izulde]

I considered it, but think there are fewer "great series" that are recognizable than there are great poems.

That's open to interpretation, I'd say, though you're probably right. That being said, I've got a decent sized board for series.

[Chief Rum]

I mean, as a voter, I will be looking more at the works themselves and not the author.

Well, good, at least I was not the only one to think this (even if Bucc is not a drafter).

[Eaglesfan27]

nice pick warhammer. That was definitely on my list.

Agreed. I think that is a great value pick.

[st.cronin]

I'm going for best works. If I can block an author who covers several categories with top works, I'll do it - but I wouldn't want somebody's 4th best work.

[Izulde]

But isn't part of the strategy to gather the best authors we can? It's easier to fill other categories and while this isn't a top ten book it's a worthy non fiction entry I'd say so I was going with strategy.

Yes and no. The primary emphasis is getting the best collection of works possible, best of course being open to interpretation.

That being said, there is a bit of author strategizing here, but strategizing too much on authors runs the risk of watering down the works selected.

[Axxon]

1. Fiction
2. Single Short Story
3. Poem
4. Fantasy/Science Fiction
5. Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially) The Harry Potter series - J.K. Rowling
6. Sport Related
7. Children's
8. Non-Fiction
9. Biography/Autobiography
10. History

Again, I couldn't pass up the wildly popular and quite entertaining series that has captivated so many peoples imaginations. Seems like another no brainer at this point.

[Buccaneer]

Interesting. I had thought a lot about that one, and in that very category. Of course, it is a very long poem, and everyone knows that, but I thought the fact that it has full-fledged story elements would end up putting it in Fiction or (even more boldly) History.

Again, as a voter, I would have slammed that pick if it was in History. As a non-elite voter (which will make up a percentage of us voting), wouldn't think it would fit in Poetry as much as Fiction.

Hint, don't pick obscure works if you want votes (or try to be too clever and pick a popular work in a wrong category ;) ).

[Axxon]

So is the overall strategy is get the works only a few heard of out of the way in the first two rounds and leave the more obvious stuff for later?


Otherwise, why bother to limit it to one work per author unless the contest is to collect the best authors. Wouldn't really make sense though I'd play in either or both kinds of drafts. I may be confused though so who knows.

[st.cronin]

Nice one, Axxon.

[Buccaneer]

1. Fiction
2. Single Short Story
3. Poem
4. Fantasy/Science Fiction
5. Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially) The Harry Potter series - J.K. Rowling
6. Sport Related
7. Children's
8. Non-Fiction
9. Biography/Autobiography
10. History

Again, I couldn't pass up the wildly popular and quite entertaining series that has captivated so many peoples imaginations. Seems like another no brainer at this point.

See?

[st.cronin]

The Harry Potter series was high on my board, I was VERY surprised it lasted that long.

[sabotai]

I mean, as a voter, I will be looking more at the works themselves and not the author.

As a voter, I might make authors a consideration if I can't decide between a few drafters when it's time to vote, but someone taking a not-so-good/not-well-known work from that author will be a strike against them and not a plus. With this pick (the King pick), Axxon's going to need to a have a great draft the rest of the way to make up for this bust of a 1st round pick.

I think Non-Fiction will actually be the easiest catagory to fill, so I don't see the need to throw an old, not-well-known work from King into it.

[Buccaneer]

Axxon needed that pick.

[MrDNA]

Surprised to see any Fiction picks so early; it's such a large category that I figured it would be held for last behind the harder to fill niches. That being said, you can't argue against Twain and arguably his best work.

Now as far as Twain being the greatest author... I can't say the names of the people who would argue against that :p

[Eaglesfan27]

Excellent pick, Axxon. I'm surprised it didn't go in the 1st round.

[Axxon]

See?

Well, by then I realized that this wasn't the kind of draft that I thought it was. If I can do anything, it is adapt and fact is, I still have Steven King. ;)

[Warhammer]

Again, as a voter, I would have slammed that pick if it was in History. As a non-elite voter (which will make up a percentage of us voting), wouldn't think it would fit in Poetry as much as Fiction.

Hint, don't pick obscure works if you want votes (or try to be too clever and pick a popular work in a wrong category ;) ).

I always thought of it as poetry. We learned it as part of the importance of meter in poetry and how that would make things easier to remember and learn as an ancient loremaster.

Also, I thinkn it could be debated whether it fits in fiction or history. I went the safe route and used it as my poem.

[Izulde]

1. Fiction 2.2 Lolita - Vladimir Nabokov
2. Single Short Story
3. Poem 1.9 "The Waste Land" - T.S. Eliot
4. Fantasy/Science Fiction
5. Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially)
6. Sport Related
7. Children's
8. Non-Fiction
9. Biography/Autobiography
10. History

I thought a long time about this pick and eyed some other possibilities, but in the end, my list wouldn't feel complete without what in my personal opinion is the greatest novel ever written, by one of the two authors who have had the biggest influence on me as a writer.

Is it a reach? Maybe, especially with some other options I was strongly considering in this slot, but the end, an Izulde draft without Lolita is like a Dolphins team without Dan Marino.

It just wouldn't be right.

[Buccaneer]

As a voter, I might make authors a consideration if I can't decide between a few drafters when it's time to vote, but someone taking a not-so-good/not-well-known work from that author will be a strike against them and not a plus. With this pick (the King pick), Axxon's going to need to a have a great draft the rest of the way to make up for this bust of a 1st round pick.

I think Non-Fiction will actually be the easiest catagory to fill, so I don't see the need to throw an old, not-well-known work from King into it.

I agree with you. A couple of the requisite authors have been picked already but those would be a given and it would come down to chosing the best known works by such authors, for those that would have nothing to do with taking English Lit.

In other words, there is nothing Izulde can do now to win this draft. :)

[sabotai]

Well, by then I realized that this wasn't the kind of draft that I thought it was. If I can do anything, it is adapt and fact is, I still have Steven King. ;)

Steven King? Would he be related to Stephen King by any chance? :)

[MrDNA]

Finally, there's my 1.1 pick. Harry Potter, like it or not, trascended the world of books and set so many ridiculous records that it goes beyond literature. Nice pick, Axxon.

[st.cronin]

Total reach. You could have had that one as a UFA.

;)

[Izulde]

Splendid HP pick, by the way, Axxon. :)

[Axxon]

As a voter, I might make authors a consideration if I can't decide between a few drafters when it's time to vote, but someone taking a not-so-good/not-well-known work from that author will be a strike against them and not a plus. With this pick (the King pick), Axxon's going to need to a have a great draft the rest of the way to make up for this bust of a 1st round pick.

I think Non-Fiction will actually be the easiest catagory to fill, so I don't see the need to throw an old, not-well-known work from King into it.

What I don't see is why even have a rule about only using one work per author if that's only going to be a minor point. It's a lot of limit for minimal strategy and there really aren't many rules to this thing to start with. I'd think the ones that are there would mean something.

So, I am adapting and will draft according to what the audience wants but since this wasn't really clear, I think you should cut me some slack for not realizing how trivial the most restrictive rule in the contest was going to be. :p

[Axxon]

Steven King? Would he be related to Stephen King by any chance? :)

Not when you're trying to take an octagenarian with alzheimers through a password reset while you're typing. :)

That was a bad one though.

[Izulde]

Total reach. You could have had that one as a UFA.

;)

I know, I know... and the rest of my board is glaring at me and saying "Hey you! Our adjusted grade is a lot higher!"

Ah well.

[Buccaneer]

Surprised to see any Fiction picks so early; it's such a large category that I figured it would be held for last behind the harder to fill niches. That being said, you can't argue against Twain and arguably his best work.

Now as far as Twain being the greatest author... I can't say the names of the people who would argue against that :p

I think that si what we've learned from the previous draft contests. You leave the most popular category for later unless there are a few first rounders that have to be gotten out of the way, if that makes sense.

[Izulde]

I think that si what we've learned from the previous draft contests. You leave the most popular category for later unless there are a few first rounders that have to be gotten out of the way, if that makes sense.

To be fair, this is the first draft contest I've ever participated in, so I can chalk it up to rookie mistake combined with a foolish sentimentality?

[MrDNA]

I have somehow totally missed all the other draft contests. What a darn shame.

[sabotai]

What I don't see is why even have a rule about only using one work per author if that's only going to be a minor point.

I thought it was primarily there to ensure a diversified draft. How fun would it be if half the drafters took King novels? If half the drafters took works from Mark Twain, or poems from T.S Eliot?

So, I am adapting and will draft according to what the audience wants but since this wasn't really clear, I think you should cut me some slack for not realizing how trivial the most restrictive rule in the contest was going to be. :p

It's not trivial considering a lot of the greatest works out there are from a small group of authors. Yeah, it would be important for someone to grab King because he has written some of the greatest works for the 20th century. It is very important to grab the most known and respected authors (because they've made the best works and it prevents other people from taking the other great works).

Your pick just sucked. :p

[Buccaneer]

Well, by then I realized that this wasn't the kind of draft that I thought it was. If I can do anything, it is adapt and fact is, I still have Steven King. ;)

I know, it's the same thing we went through in the Dates Draft - debating whether the date or the event would be more important. My strategy was to do both as best as possible, knowing who the voters were. So far in this draft, there are only 4 picks that would receive top scores from me.

[sabotai]

I know, it's the same thing we went through in the Dates Draft - debating whether the date or the event would be more important. My strategy was to do both as best as possible, knowing who the voters were. So far in this draft, there are only 4 picks that would receive top scores from me.

BTW, did that draft ever finish? I forget how that one ended or if there was even a vote for it.

[Warhammer]

It's not trivial considering a lot of the greatest works out there are from a small group of authors. Yeah, it would be important for someone to grab King because he has written some of the greatest works for the 20th century. It is very important to grab the most known and respected authors (because they've made the best works and it prevents other people from taking the other great works).

Your pick just sucked. :p

EDIT: Removed since it went too much into strategy, didn't want to be "that guy." :D

[larrymcg421]

1. Fiction - 1.8 The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, Mark Twain
2. Single Short Story
3. Poem - 2.3 Paradise Lost, John Milton
4. Fantasy/Science Fiction
5. Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially)
6. Sport Related
7. Children's
8. Non-Fiction
9. Biography/Autobiography
10. History

[Warhammer]

Great, great pick... Was hoping to get that here soon...

[st.cronin]

MOTHERF*&^@@@@@!!!!!

[st.cronin]

Pandemonium breaks out in the ess tee cronins' draft room.

[Buccaneer]

BTW, did that draft ever finish? I forget how that one ended or if there was even a vote for it.

Well, the contest master dropped the ball a few times unfortunately. Once we got around to voting, I believe the votes showed a three-way tie but with only a handful of votes.

[Warhammer]

Fiction
Single Short Story
Poem - 1.7 The Iliad - Homer
Fantasy/Science Fiction
Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially) - 2.4 The Cronicles of Narnia by C.S. Lewis
Sport Related
Children's
Non-Fiction
Biography/Autobiography
History

[Warhammer]

Well, the contest master dropped the ball a few times unfortunately. Once we got around to voting, I believe the votes showed a three-way tie but with only a handful of votes.

Loved your use of Tolkien in that one.

[Calis]

1. Fiction 2.2 Lolita - Vladimir Nabokov
2. Single Short Story
3. Poem 1.9 "The Waste Land" - T.S. Eliot
4. Fantasy/Science Fiction
5. Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially)
6. Sport Related
7. Children's
8. Non-Fiction
9. Biography/Autobiography
10. History

I thought a long time about this pick and eyed some other possibilities, but in the end, my list wouldn't feel complete without what in my personal opinion is the greatest novel ever written, by one of the two authors who have had the biggest influence on me as a writer.

Is it a reach? Maybe, especially with some other options I was strongly considering in this slot, but the end, an Izulde draft without Lolita is like a Dolphins team without Dan Marino.

It just wouldn't be right.

It would've been my top fiction pick.

Good pick, probably could've waited but why take a chance?

[st.cronin]

My overall top 5 are all unavailable now. Paradise Lost was my #2.

[Buccaneer]

Loved your use of Tolkien in that one.

Thank you. Persuant to my strategy, I also liked my Christmas, Thanksgiving and New Year's Day picks. :)

By the way, nice pick on C.S. Lewis. Been waiting for a good pick since Harry Potter. :)

[Warhammer]

My overall top 5 are all unavailable now. Paradise Lost was my #2.

My original draft strategy was to let the Poem category fall, but figured my #2 and 3 picks for the category were going to be snapped up early. Paradise Lost was my #2 pick for Poem.

[Buccaneer]

My overall top 5 are all unavailable now. Paradise Lost was my #2.

For real? That's why I didn't sign up. I would have googled the most famous poems of all time and just put in what showed up.

[Warhammer]

Thank you. Persuant to my strategy, I also liked my Christmas, Thanksgiving and New Year's Day picks. :)

By the way, nice pick on C.S. Lewis. Been waiting for a good pick since Harry Potter. :)

HP was going to be my pick here if he fell. I figured there were only 4 series that were worth picks this high. The other 3 were picked, so I figured I better get it while the getting was good.

[Axxon]

I thought it was primarily there to ensure a diversified draft. How fun would it be if half the drafters took King novels? If half the drafters took works from Mark Twain, or poems from T.S Eliot?



It's not trivial considering a lot of the greatest works out there are from a small group of authors. Yeah, it would be important for someone to grab King because he has written some of the greatest works for the 20th century. It is very important to grab the most known and respected authors (because they've made the best works and it prevents other people from taking the other great works).

Your pick just sucked. :p

And you've read Danse Macabre?

My point is that we expected different things from the draft. I think the rule done your way doesn't add much and the losses are similar. We have to water down the works we check so one guy isn't over represented but we dont want to water the works down so you can collect the best author. Why limit the best at all? I don't see how it's an admirable goal to diversify for the sake of diversity.

Either way, the rule waters down the draft so why is your way the obvious way that we should look at it? If it isn't the obvious way then my pick didn't suck per se but it was based on an equally ( I actually think better and more strategic ) compelling logic.

[st.cronin]

Paradise Lost was my #1 poem, #2 overall.

[Axxon]

I know, it's the same thing we went through in the Dates Draft - debating whether the date or the event would be more important. My strategy was to do both as best as possible, knowing who the voters were. So far in this draft, there are only 4 picks that would receive top scores from me.

Alas, this is my first draft too so I wouldn't know that. No worries though.

[Axxon]

Paradise Lost was my #1 poem, #2 overall.

I brought it up in a PM to lordscarlet but I was thinking of using it as a series when he was still planning to use year of publishing as a criteria which would have really hurt any modern series.

It's a great choice of course in it's own right but really, I think of it more as a series.

[Maple Leafs]

It's the second round and I'm already completely off the board in terms of my list (such as it is) compared to what's being picked.

For whatever reason, Harry Potter didn't occur to me. It's an obvious pick, weird that I never though of it.

[Izulde]

Fantastic pick on Paradise Lost. Good one on Narnia, too, as it's one of the ones that was on my series board.

[Izulde]

My overall top 5 are all unavailable now. Paradise Lost was my #2.

I'll be interested in hearing your overall top 5 when the draft's done and we can discuss such things. :)

[Izulde]

It would've been my top fiction pick.

Good pick, probably could've waited but why take a chance?

Thanks :)

[Lathum]

Just got caught up.

I am shocked Harry Potter lasted so longg.

I absolutly despise the Danse Macabre pick. What a huge waste

[sabotai]

And you've read Danse Macabre?

No, that's my point. I've never heard of it.

My point is that we expected different things from the draft. I think the rule done your way doesn't add much and the losses are similar. We have to water down the works we check so one guy isn't over represented but we dont want to water the works down so you can collect the best author. Why limit the best at all? I don't see how it's an admirable goal to diversify for the sake of diversity.

It's not diversity for the sake of diversity, it's diversity for the sake of fun, which is what I've always thought the point of these drafts were. Why bother if half the people will just pick King novels?

Either way, the rule waters down the draft so why is your way the obvious way that we should look at it? If it isn't the obvious way then my pick didn't suck per se but it was based on an equally ( I actually think better and more strategic ) compelling logic.

I didn't say it was the obvious way to look at it and that everyone should look at it that way. I said as a voter, that's how I saw the rule, and that the work itself will mean more to me when I vote than just the list of authors a drafter assembled. If other voters value different things, than good. That's part of the fun.

[Axxon]

Just got caught up.

I am shocked Harry Potter lasted so longg.

I absolutly despise the Danse Macabre pick. What a huge waste

Again, if the rules were setup to include strategy it's a great pick. Since it's only an affirmative action rule it looks like a bad pick. What everyone is missing is that it isn't a horrible read; it's just not his best work and that's not how the game appeared to be set up.

[Axxon]

No, that's my point. I've never heard of it.



It's not diversity for the sake of diversity, it's diversity for the sake of fun, which is what I've always thought the point of these drafts were. Why bother if half the people will just pick King novels?



I didn't say it was the obvious way to look at it and that everyone should look at it that way. I said as a voter, that's how I saw the rule, and that the work itself will mean more to me when I vote than just the list of authors a drafter assembled. If other voters value different things, than good. That's part of the fun.

Oh, I'm not singling you out; your's appears to be the prevailing opinion. I just don't think it takes away any fun if the actual best works were chosen. I don't know why it's any better to have to choose an inferior work simply because it's a different guy. I don't get that but others do. Again, I can adapt and it's no biggie but it's kinda odd to my way of thinking so I was honestly doomed for my first pick no matter what. I don't think like the crowd on this one.

[Lathum]

Again, if the rules were setup to include strategy it's a great pick. Since it's only an affirmative action rule it looks like a bad pick. What everyone is missing is that it isn't a horrible read; it's just not his best work and that's not how the game appeared to be set up.

Part of these drafts are knowing your voters.

You would have gotten much more from a number of his other works while still taking him off the board.

I just think most of the people who vote will look at that pick and actualy deduct points from you

[Axxon]

Part of these drafts are knowing your voters.

You would have gotten much more from a number of his other works while still taking him off the board.

I just think most of the people who vote will look at that pick and actualy deduct points from you

Like I said, I've never read the draft threads so I was doomed to that pick. Now, since it's actually going to cost me negative points I'll say my enthusiasm for the competitive aspect is gone so I'll just play for my own choices. May make it more fun actually.

Anyone want to trade for a Harry Potter pick? Make me an offer. All offers considered:D

[sabotai]

Go for it. Your first round pick may have fallen flat, but who knows. Maybe you'll win some major creativity points with some of your others.

[DaddyTorgo]

axxon - just play the draft out the way you want. Part of the fun is getting to summarize your reasons for your picks at the end, and you may win some people over then.

I know I had success with that in my last draft, which was the sports figures one where I had to defend a couple picks I thought and actually ended up winning the draft

[Izulde]

Yeah, to me, this draft isn't about trying to find the "surefire winners", unless that's what you want to do.

For me, this is about using my lit knowledge in a fun way, to draft a team that I'd personally enjoy having and reading myself.

[Axxon]

Go for it. Your first round pick may have fallen flat, but who knows. Maybe you'll win some major creativity points with some of your others.

Dude, it's like starting in the premier league with a -15 point penalty. :D

Major creativity also is iffy since we're looking for popular choices. I have creative choices and that's what I'm gonna do now but realistically, no one will have heard of most of them so again, winnings gonna be tough.

That's why I'm looking to trade out of the popular choice so I can have fun picking the lineup I want and get more options. Let others quibble over what's popular and go with what I enjoy and see where that takes me. Like you said, that may be the key to victory after all.

I'm assuming I can trade players for picks here. If I get enough picks I can possibly strengthen my hand enough to get it noticed. I don't think Harry Potter alone can bring me back from the quite damning comments I've seen over my Stephen King pick so volume would be the logical next step.

Let me be clear. I'm not in a quitting mood or bummed. I love literature and discussing it so this is going to be fun. I just think it might be more fun to get funky since I pooched it and would probably have more fun just considering it a learning experience so lets haggle!!!

It also sucks because I honestly really think that Danse Macabre IS a great book.

[Axxon]

Yeah, to me, this draft isn't about trying to find the "surefire winners", unless that's what you want to do.

For me, this is about using my lit knowledge in a fun way, to draft a team that I'd personally enjoy having and reading myself.

Actually, that's what my long winded post was trying to say and actually, HP is great and all but it WOULDN'T be on this list if I was playing just for my own enjoyment. I have a much more favorite series that's also fantasy/sci fi so I would have gone with it and had more fun defending it.

[Maple Leafs]

We're on pick #2.5, correct?

[Warhammer]

Yes

[Axxon]

BTW, I'm about to head out to an evening of revelry so if it gets back to my choice it'll be tomorrow am that I can get to it.

Peace out everybody.

[Izulde]

Actually, that's what my long winded post was trying to say and actually, HP is great and all but it WOULDN'T be on this list if I was playing just for my own enjoyment. I have a much more favorite series that's also fantasy/sci fi so I would have gone with it and had more fun defending it.

I agonized over Waste Land vs The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock. Prufrock is my favorite poem of all time and I loved the paper I wrote on it in which, as part of my discussion of the poem, I suggested that the woman of Prufrock's obsession is a lesbian.

But ultimately, Waste Land's legacy and impact was simply too great to outweigh Prufrock, especialy since I do love both poems.

[Izulde]

Point of clarification requested on history:

Is it a non-fiction book of history, historical fiction or both?

[ntndeacon]

Thank you. Persuant to my strategy, I also liked my Christmas, Thanksgiving and New Year's Day picks. :)

By the way, nice pick on C.S. Lewis. Been waiting for a good pick since Harry Potter. :)

Agreed on the C.S. Lewis pick. very nice. Still have never liked you pick of Christmas as the birth of Christ.understood it, but did not think it was good or right, since the accuracy was an issue. (Plus iwanted to use it for the coronation of Charlemagne :) )

[lordscarlet]

Hey guys.. sorry I was gone longer than I expected today. I was able to monitor the thread through most of the day, though, and you guys had everything on track so I left it along (was reading on my iPhone). The category situation was brought up (with LOTR). My basic rule on category is that you can choose whatever category you want and the voting public can decide if it was a poor decision.

Again, if the rules were setup to include strategy it's a great pick. Since it's only an affirmative action rule it looks like a bad pick. What everyone is missing is that it isn't a horrible read; it's just not his best work and that's not how the game appeared to be set up.

Um. They are setup to include strategy. It seems that you're just upset because you had poor strategy. I'm not sure what other rules you would like, outside of the year one. The series is one reason it just wouldn't work -- You don't get to take decades out of the running because a series runs that long. At best you could knock off each year a book from the series was published.

The author rule is by no means meant to "water down" the draft, but to require strategy. Sometimes people will grab authors to block future picks, sometimes you have to agonize over the "best work" by that author. It is all about strategy when it comes to these restrictions in the drafts.
Point of clarification requested on history:

Is it a non-fiction book of history, historical fiction or both?

Non-fiction. Sorry for the lack of clarity there.

[NoMyths]

For real? That's why I didn't sign up. I would have googled the most famous poems of all time and just put in what showed up.

Oh, that's why?

[wade moore]

Axxon - you're taking a poor strategy way too seriously. As LS said, it's not that there's no strategy it's that the one you picked didn't resonate with everyone. There's no "given" about whether to pick best work or best author, it's all up to the minds of the voters. I think if you would have picked King and a 2nd-tier work in popularity (like say his "On Writing") I don't think people would have reacted so badly, but very early in the draft you pick King who has some sure fire top-tier writings and take an obscure old writing of his.

It was just a poor choice, bar-none. Others will make poor choices too, so don't give up. Usually there is at least one head-scratcher in everyone's draft. When it all comes out voters may see Stephen King, not really look at the draft order, and not know that you picked him when all of the other categories were still open. MANY voters do not read the actual draft thread, so some of these mistakes can come out in the wash.

Don't give up now, there's still a loooong way to go.

[lordscarlet]

OK. I finally updated the first post. I also have an inbox full of draft boards, let me see if NoMyths is in it (he also sent me a list originally)

[sabotai]

Dude, it's like starting in the premier league with a -15 point penalty. :D

A couple of other drafters are with you with that penalty. Your pick wasn't the only one I didn't like, and I can't say I was really impressed with any of the other picks. The real draft starts in round 3 when all of the obvious picks are gone. From my experience in these things, a great later round pick will overcome a bad early round pick.

[lordscarlet]

OK. I have one pick left from NoMyths original list -- I will give him a couple hours to wake up and check in before I take it for him.

Also, a number of people are not putting the pick number on their list. Make sure to put the pick number before your pick in your listing.

[NoMyths]

I'm here. Gimme a minute or so. :)

[NoMyths]

Fiction
Single Short Story
Poem: 2.5 - The Divine Comedy, Dante Alighieri
Fantasy/Science Fiction
Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially)
Sport Related
Children's
Non-Fiction
Biography/Autobiography
History

One of the few poems with which nearly every FOFCer is familiar (if mostly in concept rather than specific attribution) -- the idea of varying circles of Hell is a common one now. Inferno is the most famous canctica from the epic poem, following Dante as he is led on a tour of Hell by the poet Virgil, a place they ultimately escape. Purgatory and Paradise then depict tours of those places as well, and Dante eventually comes face to face with God.

From Wiki:
The Divine Comedy (Italian: Commedia, later christened "Divina" by Giovanni Boccaccio), written by Dante Alighieri between 1308 and his death in 1321, is widely considered the central epic poem of Italian literature, and is seen as one of the greatest works of world literature. The poem's imaginative vision of the Christian afterlife is a culmination of the medieval world-view as it had developed in the Western Church. It helped establish the Tuscan dialect in which it is written as the Italian standard.

[Sublime 2]

I like the pick NoMyths.