Alright Boyzz, Here We Go!!!!! Up and Down the River 2K8 First Impressions Thread!!!!

[Subby]

Purchase it (http://www.solecismic.com/cards/index.php), play it.

Write about it here.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

LOL.......I thought this was a joke when I first saw it. Guess not.

[Subby]

xxx

[Pumpy Tudors]

LOL

[Deattribution]

Am I understanding correctly that there is no multiplayer? That seems kind of odd for a computer card game, especially since there seems to be other versions (some free) that include it.

Maybe I'm underestimating how many people play card games vs the cpu.

[Izulde]

Welcome to Ann Arbor. Gold! I may have to get this game after all.

[Ben E Lou]

Downloaded and played a bit. The AI seems pretty solid.

[Vince]

My intelligence seems much less solid than that of the artificial intelligence. Definite twist to the games of Hearts I'm used to playing.

[jbergey22]

I played terrible and still beat the computer whom seem to underbid every hand. I like the statistics screens. Of course I am use to getting my butt handed to me by the Europeans in this game. I feel like there is too much extra clicking for my liking as well.

[Dutch]

I don't know if anybody else is seeing this, but a lot of the graphics aren't showing up on my computer.

http://www.explodinghouse.net/misc/newgame.png
After I start a new game, this is what my screen looks like.

[jbergey22]

I don't know if anybody else is seeing this, but a lot of the graphics aren't showing up on my computer.

http://www.explodinghouse.net/misc/newgame.png
After I start a new game, this is what my screen looks like.

Mine is working fine. Maybe you should try to uninstall and reinstall. Ive had things like this happen to me before and its usually a file that didnt get installed correctly.

[Solecismic]

It's one of two things. Either the background files aren't in the pictures folder, or the computer isn't able to load them. I'd try rebooting before reinstalling, or closing other applications that use a lot of memory.

Older computers with less RAM may get into this state once in a while.

With the bidding, everything I've read and experienced with the game suggests that lower bids are often better. So the AI is more conservative. It's not about how many you tricks you can take, but how many you should take. Some of the characters are more conservative than others, but overall, they all fall into the generally conservative category.

[Dutch]

I'll make sure the game installed all neccessary files...by reinstalling it. My PC is less than 6 months old...so I don't think that's the cause.

I'll check it in the next hour or two.

[Solecismic]

No PC made in the last five years should have any trouble running this game, unless there's a lot going on with other applications.

So it's probably not finding the pictures folder. Was the game installed to the default directory?

[Dutch]

No, I default Solecismic to the D drive where there is tons of space.

[Dutch]

Reinstalled in C: and everything works fine.

I would prefer it on my D: drive though, I don't put anything that's not labelled Microsoft on my C: drive.

[Solecismic]

I understand. I'll have to figure out why it did that. It's difficult, with the new restrictions on Vista, to come up with an install routine that's smooth for every operating system.

It should, though, work on the D: drive if the directory is Something/Solecismic Software/Up and Down the River.

[Dutch]

It worked just fine, just I couldn't see what was going on. :)

This is my default games directory and the folder I was using.


D:\Games\Solecismic Software\Up and Down the River

[jbergey22]

With the bidding, everything I've read and experienced with the game suggests that lower bids are often better. So the AI is more conservative. It's not about how many you tricks you can take, but how many you should take. Some of the characters are more conservative than others, but overall, they all fall into the generally conservative category.

Im not saying under bidding is a bad thing. Its more the fact the computer people dont do a great job of bidding the situation. For example 10 tricks. First person bids 1, 2nd person bids 2, 3rd person bids 1 again. Ive seen the computer bid too low in this situation the majority of the time. No matter what my cards were I cant see going lower than 4 here where as the computer whether right or wrong will sometimes bid 1,2 or 0.

Ive had the opposite happen as well 8 tricks this time. First person bids 4, 2nd person bids 2, 3rd person bids 4, last person bids 2? 12 tricks with 8 to get.

It doesnt seem to me the computer is bidding their position just their cards. The AI seems pretty good, if you could tweak something so they play their position better and make them play their cards more aggressive it would probably improve the challenge. Of course keep some of the players not as good but it would be nice to see 5-6 super players for challenge purposes.

[Solecismic]

Thanks for the reply. That's something I thought about during development, as well as providing for more differentiation between the computer players.

I know while playing the game myself, against real opponents, I've bid the last position differently based on prior bids.

Bidding higher? I think you can do that with bad hands that contain a lot of risky cards, or even with hands that have well protected high cards that you'd ordinarily bid low. Bidding lower? I can't say I'd do that except in extreme cases - maybe in lower hands when the higher bidder is probably indicating some high trump cards.

[jbergey22]

Not a problem Jim. I really think the base of this game is something very exciting especially if down the road you were to add other games that could have equally deep statistics. I am looking ahead to where I could look at the stats and say, well this guy seems to really good and seems to bid much higher than I do, maybe I need to try and set him up by changing my bid strategy and have it mean something.

I'm just trying to think of things that real players will do that you may or may not have added into the game.

1. Computer players working together to try and set the high guy.
2. The position bidding as previously discussed
3. Lets say 2 guys have laid their cards and the 3rd guy needs tricks and the 4th guy doesnt want anymore tricks, is the 3rd guy smart enough to realize this and not play a huge card just trying to get this trick?(playing less knowing the person behind him doesnt want this trick)
4. Is the computer AI set up to play its own hand a certain way no matter what and not focus on what other players could have?

These are just some things that Im not sure if its possible to program but some things to add. Good game though I'm not complaining at all.

As far as bidding higher, I agree that you can bid higher but to be safe I dont think Id go more than 2 over unless of course you would be sitting with a solid bid. When the bid is already 1 over by the time it gets to my as the dealer unless I have SURE ticks A of trump or K protected trump Im probably bidding 0.

One other thing, is no trump included in the game? I havent seen the option for it? A lot of people play no trump every 5th hand.

[albionmoonlight]

Maybe I'm underestimating how many people play card games vs the cpu.

I know that most of the people to whom I am going to suggest this game (mother-in-law, etc.) are 100% play against the computer types.

They are not computer people, and they are not game people. They are older people who use the computer as a tool and like playing little versions of hearts and spades and spider solitare to take quick little breaks.

Multiplayer would, honestly, intimidate them. Not the gaming of it. But the whole "how do I log on to play against other people" aspect of it.

Now, I know that just because multiplayer exists does not mean that people would need to use it. But the target audience for this game as I see it (which might be quite different than how Solecismic sees it, FWIW) would never use it. So I can, personally, see the design decision not to take the time to include it.

[Solecismic]

Not a problem Jim. I really think the base of this game is something very exciting especially if down the road you were to add other games that could have equally deep statistics. I am looking ahead to where I could look at the stats and say, well this guy seems to really good and seems to bid much higher than I do, maybe I need to try and set him up by changing my bid strategy and have it mean something.

Down the road, it would be nice to try other card games. But I need to step back from this and see it succeed before I go down this road again. Once was fun, and I hope it works. Twice gets a little indulgent.

I'm just trying to think of things that real players will do that you may or may not have added into the game.


1. Computer players working together to try and set the high guy.
2. The position bidding as previously discussed
3. Lets say 2 guys have laid their cards and the 3rd guy needs tricks and the 4th guy doesnt want anymore tricks, is the 3rd guy smart enough to realize this and not play a huge card just trying to get this trick?(playing less knowing the person behind him doesnt want this trick)
4. Is the computer AI set up to play its own hand a certain way no matter what and not focus on what other players could have?


1. This is fairly tough, because you're talking about three levels of AI, getting to the point where a player can consider making a move to set a specific opponent. I'm not sure I can get there.

2. Yes. Definitely worth adding.

3. It does this to a certain extent.

4. Not really. It has a sense where the high cards are. It makes decisions based on an evaluation of the current situation.


One other thing, is no trump included in the game? I havent seen the option for it? A lot of people play no trump every 5th hand.

I haven't seen that option before. The only no-trump hands are with 13 cards in a four-player game. If a lot of people ask for it, I'd probably add it - the AI can handle no-trump play.

[Dutch]

As a novice to this game, I am getting decimated once 5 or more cards are in play and practically am praying for the down river ease...but by that point, it's too late and my opponents have pulled away.

Tough game, but it's fun.

[Glengoyne]

I've had three CTDs.

It doesn't hurt when I pee or anything.

Pretty much once per session. I don't think I'm doing anything out of the ordinary. I have been getting up and walking away, letting the screen saver take over while I am away. That is about the only out of the ordinary thing I'm doing.

[Ben E Lou]

Is there a reason that the spades are grey? It looks a bit odd.

[Solecismic]

Screen savers can cause problems. I've had to turn mine off before. That said, I have tweaked how the game manages memory (as well as fixing the problem with installing to different directories). Try uninstalling and downloading again.

If there is a crash, I'd be interested in knowing the crash code and address, as well as the operating system.

Skydog, I've always been annoyed by decks with only two colors, so I thought a deck with slight shade differences would be helpful.

I'm sure once the game has been out a while, people will create custom decks.

[Ben E Lou]

Skydog, I've always been annoyed by decks with only two colors, so I thought a deck with slight shade differences would be helpful.Interesting. Maybe the disconnect here is growing up in a black neighborhood. "Boy, you as black as the Ace of Spades," was a fairly common comment. "Boy, you as ashy as the Ace Of Spaces," just doesn't have the same ring to it. *shurg*

[Solecismic]

Interesting. Maybe the disconnect here is growing up in a black neighborhood. "Boy, you as black as the Ace of Spades," was a fairly common comment. "Boy, you as ashy as the Ace Of Spaces," just doesn't have the same ring to it. *shurg*

And here I thought I was being so open-minded. Not all black cards look alike.

Perhaps we could create a multi-cultural deck. With the random trump feature, it could be used in diversity training seminars. I could sell millions.

[Ben E Lou]

And here I thought I was being so open-minded. Not all black cards look alike.

Perhaps we could create a multi-cultural deck. With the random trump feature, it could be used in diversity training seminars. I could sell millions.


:D :D :D

[Subby]

Poker sites use four color decks - green, red, blue and black...

[digamma]

Desdemona bid 0 in a 2 card hand when she had the Ace of Clubs with the clubs as trump. Even if she was blocked from bidding 1, shouldn't a bid of 2 be the only option here?

[Ben E Lou]

Poker sites use four color decks - green, red, blue and black...
You mean the suits are different colors, or the backs of the cards?

[Subby]

Suits.

[AlexB]

Just downlaoded the demo & had a couple of 4 player games: seems solid, other than in the second game, once I'd worked out the idea during the first, I built up a healthy-ish lead (16-20 points for the most part) and didn't get the feeling the AI was ganging up on me/being aggressive enough in their bidding.

The 3 AI players were still going low numbers, and I had decent hands so was going high, getting the tricks early and then losing out from there on in. So when I hit my bid, not only had I screwed one or two of the AI players over, but I had gotten more points than those who did hit their bids as they were lower than me... It was only one game, and it may be that the cards wouldn't allow it, but I felt that that the AI might try and bid bigger to claw back some of the difference and make it harder for me. As I say though, this is from the ultimate small sample size :)

Overall a fun game, and I'll activate the game next time I have 1/2 an hour to fill

[AlexB]

Actiavated and played some more - antybody notice on the about screen Jim has inclued a 5-card poker hand that whizzes around and gives the best hand description? is this an indication the next release might be a poker game...

[Ben E Lou]

Bump. Moving threads.

[Ben E Lou]

Up and Down the River

As a special thank you for more than 15 years of support, we invite you to try our card game, Up and Down the River (http://www.solecismic.com/cards/index.php), now completely free of charge. It has our signature extensive record-keeping, plus a theme straight from the pages of William Shakespeare.

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