The FOFC Literature Draft - Voting Thread

[lordscarlet]

This is the voting thread for the FOFC Literature Draft. The original draft thread can be found here:
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=63935

Competitors drafted "teams" of ten works of literature. So work could be selected more than one and no artist could be used more than once. Each team had to fill a roster in the following categories:


Fiction
Single Short Story
Poem
Fantasy/Science Fiction
Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially)
Sport Related
Children's
Non-Fiction
Biography/Autobiography
Non-Fiction History


A note on categories: The list above is what was posted as the rules. Some of the categories are loosely defined and open for interpretation. It is up to the voter to determine which works best fit in which categories, and to factor that into their voting choices. No further guidance will be given -- it's your call.

Voting format
You will vote for your first, second and third choices, with points awarded in 5/3/1 format.

Please post in something resembling this format:

Team name
Team name
Team name


Comments on why you voted as you did are strongly encouraged. Comments from participants and observers are encouraged. Participants can campaign for votes as they see fit, keeping in mind that voters may or may not appreciate that. If you change your mind, please edit your original vote post rather than posting again.

Draft participants are allowed to vote.

Please bold your votes, and do no bold any commentary (so that I can scan the thread for votes as we go).

The deadline for votes is Monday, March 3, 2008 at 5PM Eastern.

[lordscarlet]

The Rosters:

<iframe width='750' height='675' frameborder='0' src='//spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pflesdvL9IZ_JSHdymhobZw&output=html&widget=true'></iframe>


Chief Rum


Fiction, 10.10 The Brothers Karamazov, Fyodor Dostoevsky
Short Story, 2.10 A Christmas Carol, Charles Dickens
Poem, 4.10 The Road Not Taken, Robert Frost
Fantasy/Sci-fi, 7.1 Do Androids Dream of Electric Sleep, Phillip K. Dick
Series, 6.10 Ender's Game, Orson Scott Card
Sports, 8.10 Sweet Science, A.J. Liebling
Children's, 5.1 Charlotte's Web, E.B. White
Non-Fiction, 9.1 Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy, Isaac Newton
Biography/Autobiography, 3.1 Walden, Henry David Thoreau
History, 1.1 The Holy Bible, God


cartman


Fiction, 4.9 Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand
Short Story, 3.2 The Cask of Amontillado, Edgar Allan Poe
Poem, 5.2 Paul Revere's Ride, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Fantasy/Sci-fi, 2.9 Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, Lewis Carroll
Series, 1.2 The Lord of the Rings Trilogy, J.R.R. Tolkein
Sports, 6.9 Casey At The Bat, Ernest Thayer
Children's, 8.9 The Complete Calvin and Hobbes, Bill Watterson
Non-Fiction, 7.2 Kama Sutra, Mallanaga Vatsyayana
Biography/Autobiography, 9.2 The Twelve Caesars, Suetonius
History, 10.9 All The President's Men, Woodward and Bernstein


st.cronin


Fiction, 8.8 Light in August, William Faulkner
Short Story, 1.3 The Dead, James Joyce
Poem, 10.8 Lucktown, Bryan Penberthy
Fantasy/Sci-fi, 2.8 1984, George Orwell
Series, 3.3 Dune, Frank Herbert
Sports, 4.8, Rabbit, Run, John Updike
Children's, 9.3 Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Roald Dahl
Non-Fiction, 7.3 Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, Robert Pirsig
Biography/Autobiography, 5.3 The Diary of Anais Nin, Anais Nin
History, 6.8, The Second World War, Winston Churchill

Maple Leafs


Fiction, 1.4 Hamlet, William Shakespeare
Short Story, 9.4 The Gift of the Magi, by O. Henry
Poem, 4.7 The Rime of the Ancient Mariner, Samuel Taylor Coleridge
Fantasy/Sci-fi, 3.4 War of the Worlds, H.G. Wells
Series, 10.7 The Six Enneads, Plotinus
Sports, 7.4 Paper Lion, George Plimpton
Children's, 5.4 The Cat in the Hat, Dr. Seuss
Non-Fiction, 6.7 The Analects of Confucius, Confucius
Biography/Autobiography, 8.7 The Confessions of St. Augustine, St. Augustine of Hippo
History, 2.7 The Diary of a Young Girl, Anne Frank


DaddyTorgo


Fiction, 7.5 Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Luo Guanzhong
Short Story, 6.6 The Death of Ivan Ilyich, Tolstoy
Poem, 5.5 Leaves of Grass, Walt Whitman
Fantasy/Sci-fi, 4.6 Farenheit 451, Ray Bradbury
Series, 1.5 The Foundation Series, Isaac Asimov
Sports, 10.6 The Boys of Summer, Roger Kahn
Children's, 3.5 Children's and Household Tales, The Brothers Grimm
Non-Fiction, 9.5 Two Treatises of Government, John Locke
Biography/Autobiography, 2.6 Autobiographical Notes, Albert Einstein
History, 8.6 History of the Pelopennisian War, Thucydides


NoMyths


Fiction, 10.5 The Catcher in the Rye, J.D. Salinger
Short Story, 8.5 The Adventure of the Speckled Band, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
Poem, 2.5 The Divine Comedy, Dante Alighieri
Fantasy/Sci-fi, 7.6 - Neuromancer, William Gibson
Series, 3.6 The Hichhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams
Sports, 4.5 Friday Night Lights, H.G. Bissinger
Children's, 5.6 Treasure Island, Robert Louis Stevenson
Non-Fiction, 1.6 On the Origin of Species, Charles Darwin
Biography/Autobiography, 6.5 Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, an American Slave, Frederick Douglass
History, 9.5 The Civil War: A Narrative, Shelby Foote


Warhammer


Fiction, 3.7 Catch-22, Joseph Heller
Short Story, 5.7 Flowers for Algernon, Daniel Keyes
Poem, 1.7 The Iliad, Homer
Fantasy/Sci-fi, 7.7 Frankenstein by Mary Shelley
Series, 2.4 The Chronicles of Narnia, C.S. Lewis
Sports, 4.4 Ball Four, Jim Bouton
Children's, 10.4 Winnie the Pooh, A. A. Milne
Non-Fiction, 9.7 An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith
Biography/Autobiography, 6.4 Profiles in Courage, John F. Kennedy
History, 8.4 The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Edward Gibbon


larrymcg421


Fiction, 1.8 The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, Mark Twain
Short Story, 5.8 The Legend of Sleepy Hollow, Washington Irving
Poem, 2.3 Paradise Lost, John Milton
Fantasy/Sci-fi, 7.8 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, Jules Verne
Series, 9.8 Tarzan series, Edgar Rice Burroughs
Sports, 10.3 Eight Men Out, Eliot Asinof
Children's, 6.3 The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, L Frank Baum
Non-Fiction, 4.3 Communist Manifesto, Karl Marx
Biography/Autobiography, 3.8 Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler
History, 8.3 The Histories of Herodotus, Herodotus


Izulde


Fiction, 2.2 Lolita, Vladimir Nabokov
Short Story, 10.2 "The Snows of Kilimanjaro", Ernest Hemingway
Poem, 1.9 "The Waste Land", T.S. Eliot
Fantasy/Sci-fi, 8.2 A Game of Thrones, George R.R. Martin
Series, 3.9 The Musketeers Saga, Alexandre Dumas
Sports, 5.9 North Dallas Forty, Peter Gent
Children's, 7.9 The Little Prince, Antonie de Sainte Expury
Non-Fiction, 4.2 The Art of War, Sun Tzu
Biography/Autobiography, 6.2 Night, Elie Wiesel
History, 9.9 The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, William L. Shirer


Axxon


Fiction, 3.10 Shogun, James Clavell
Short Story, 6.1 The Lottery, Shirley Jackson
Poem, 8.10 The Canterbury Tales, Jeoffrey Chaucer
Fantasy/Sci-fi, 4.1 Slaughterhouse Five, Kurt Vonnegut
Series, 2.1 Harry Potter, J.K. Rowling
Sports, 5.10 The Miracle of Castel di Sangro, Joe McGinniss
Children's, 8.1 Where the Sidewalk Ends, Shel Silverstein
Non-Fiction, 1.10 Danse Macabre, Stephen King
Biography/Autobiography, 10.1 The Autobiography of Alice B Toklas, Gertrude Stein
History, 9.10 The Gulag Archipelago, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

[lordscarlet]

Buccaneer's vote:



Warhammer (71)
larrymcg (66)
cartman (65)

[Buccaneer]

Thanks for posting my votes. I'm back home now - everything's down at work and I have this nasty cough (it's called the Colorado Crud, everyone gets it this time of year).

Anyway, I passed along my congrats to Warhammer for a job well done. While he did not score the highest in any category except Sports, his very strong scores in Poem, SciFi, Series, Children's and History put him over the top for me.

larrymcg also had a very strong draft with no scores below a 5. He was strong in Fiction, Short Story, SciFi, Sports and Children's.

Just behind and basically tied with larrymcg is cartman. He actually won 3 categories: Poem, Fantasy and Series (plus an 8 in History). But his Bio and Short Story cost him the competition, in my opinion. I could have give him a 9 for C&H which would put him in a tied for 2nd and wouldn't have any problems calling it a tie.

All of the participants were close in my mind even though I gave a number of 1, 2 and 3. If any of those had a popular choice - like Izulde choosing Pooh instead of Little Prince - then the final standings would be very different. Using that example, Izulde would have placed a close 5th.

Here are my final ranking, fwiw:


Warhammer (71)
larrymcg (66)
cartman (65)
DaddyTorgo (59)
NoMyths (55)
Maple Leafs (53)
Chief Rum (52)
st.cronin (49)
Izulde (48)
Axxon (44)Thank you all for providing many hourse of enjoyment and kudos to LS for running a superb draft.

[Surtt]

1. Warhammer
2. NoMyths
3. larrymcg

[Warhammer]

I assume participants are not allowed to vote for themselves?

[Buccaneer]

I assume participants are not allowed to vote for themselves?

In each of the previous drafts where we had public voting, there were plenty of participants voting for themselves.

[timmynausea]

1. Chief Rum
2. Warhammer
3. NoMyths

I felt like Chief Rum and Warhammer separated themselves from the rest of the pack by having teams that were strong across the board. Everyone else had at least one pick I felt was fairly weak. Third place was a bit of a toss-up. Izulde, st. cronin and cartman just missed making my ballot.

Literary merit and cultural significance trumped historical importance on my list. Books I felt had much less literary value than historical value may have even hurt teams more than they helped. Mein Kampf may have been a ballsy pick, for example, and Hitler was an incredibly important figure historically, but I have no desire to ever read it, so it didn't do much for me.

[timmynausea]

Don't forget to bold your votes to make it easy for LS to tally things up.

[Radii]

Since we had done this a few times in the draft, the tops in each category:

Fiction - Maple Leafs
Short Story - Chief Rum/Cartman tied (with 4 other people tied right behind them, short story didn't separate out much)
Poem - Warhammer (w/ larrymcg/NoMyths right behind)
Sci Fi - St Cronin (selfishly giving the love to my favorite book)
Series - Cartman
Sports - Warhammer
Childrens - Maple Leafs
Non-fiction - Izulde
Biography - Larrymcg
History - Lots of people tied with very good picks(guess i'm not much of a history snob )


Votes:


1. Warhammer
2. Larrymcg
3. NoMyths



I used a similar 10 point system as bucc. Warhammer came out as the clear, but not runaway, #1. Larrymcg and NoMyths actually tied for 2nd and I ended up looking at the lists side by side and deciding Larrymcg's overall list was slightly better taken in as a whole. Cartman and Maple Leafs were tied for 4th just a couple points behind.

This was probably the most fun I've had following a draft, thanks a ton for running it LS.

[Radii]

In each of the previous drafts where we had public voting, there were plenty of participants voting for themselves.

I did it once and felt pretty shitty for doing so when not everyone else did it as well, never have since. But its never been forbidden.

[Warhammer]

1. Warhammer
2. larrymcg
3. MapleLeafs

Remember to bold your votes.

I really liked how my picks came out, so I am going with myself first.

Larrymcg's list was tough. There were 3(!) times where he took my second choice for a subject right before or right after I made my pick. Those were in short story, history, and sci-fi. When the Wizard of Oz came on my radar as a children's book, he immediately snagged it.

I went with MapleLeafs third because there were no glaring screwups there. I loved his biography pick so late in the draft and was kicking myself for it, and it also took off The City of God off my non-fiction list. Most of the other lists had some questionable (in my mind) picks. Not so much for the books, but for the category they were in.

st.cronin's list in my eyes would have benefited from 1984 being moved to fiction, Dune as a sci-fi pick, and then another selection in series.

NoMyths had a great early draft, but I thought he made some questionable moves late. I think using Doyle for Hound of the Baskervilles as fiction with something else in short story would have worked better. I also was not thrilled with the selection of Foote in history. Early on that would have been a great pick, but the late history picks were huge.

cartman's work was solid, but I thought he could have made some moves that really would have strengthened his draft. If Alice in Wonderland was moved to children's (which would have gotten my vote for best in category), Calvin and Hobbes could have been taken off the list (which is my worst in category, I like Calvin and Hobbes, but it's not lit!), he would have probably been third on my list. The other picks were solid, but none of them blew my socks off.

[Warhammer]

I did it once and felt pretty shitty for doing so when not everyone else did it as well, never have since. But its never been forbidden.

That's my thing. I have no problem voting I just feel funny voting for myself. Also, if everyone is considered to vote for themselves first, it all works itself out in the end.

[cartman]

If cartoons aren't a form of literature, why are they eligible for Pulitzer Prizes?

[Radii]

Calvin and Hobbes could have been taken off the list (which is my worst in category, I like Calvin and Hobbes, but it's not lit!)

definitely agree with this. Depending on what replaced it, this is probably the only single pick that could have changed the winner of the entire thing.

[Buccaneer]

It seems that a third place winner will be all over the board. Even if I hadn't rated C&H so high, it wouldn't changed my rankings much.

WH, I disagree with saying C&H is not literature. That's like saying a blue cicle on canvas is not art. Many children can relate to the morals and contemplations of C&H than some dense book that is more for adults. Literature, like art, is about conveying a message and an emotion.

[cartman]

Or for that matter how can cartoons and illustrated books win the Caldecott and Newberry Medals for children's literature if they aren't considered literature?

[Warhammer]

If cartoons aren't a form of literature, why are they eligible for Pulitzer Prizes?

I make a distinction in my mind between the journalism awards (those for each part of a newspaper or periodical, i.e. editorial cartooning, criticism, commentary, reporting, photography, etc.) and those for general writing (music, fiction, non-fiction, etc.). Sure, a cartoon could be nominated for fiction, but it better be an incredible cartoon and Calvin and Hobbes doesn't get there for me.

[cartman]

I make a distinction in my mind between the journalism awards (those for each part of a newspaper or periodical, i.e. editorial cartooning, criticism, commentary, reporting, photography, etc.) and those for general writing (music, fiction, non-fiction, etc.). Sure, a cartoon could be nominated for fiction, but it better be an incredible cartoon and Calvin and Hobbes doesn't get there for me.

But that's not the argument you made. You dismissed it out of hand as "not literature".

[Greyroofoo]

1. larrymcg
2. warhammer
3. nomyths

[Radii]

I probably should backtrack my complete agreement w/ the bit I quoted. I didn't specifically give C&H a low score b/c of a distinction about whether it qualified as literature. I gave it a low score b/c against Dr Seuss, Charlotte's Web, Shel Silverstein, Charlie & The Chocolate Factory, etc, I felt that it held up very very poorly. i can see the strategy as there is a ton of love for Calvin and Hobbes on a board like this one, but it still felt like a pick that didn't stand up to the quality of the rest of the category.

[Warhammer]

WH, I disagree with saying C&H is not literature. That's like saying a blue cicle on canvas is not art. Many children can relate to the morals and contemplations of C&H than some dense book that is more for adults. Literature, like art, is about conveying a message and an emotion.

This is where I disagree. A blue circle on canvas isn't art. Again, I love C&H, I just don't consider it great literature. Even my nephews, who have the complete C&H collection and adore them, did not mention C&H when I asked them about their favorite children's literature. They did mention Where the Wild Things Are, Hardy Boys, Wrinkle in Time, and even Goodnight Moon.

Now if the category was cartoon. C&H would have won the category. I can only think of one, maybe two, cartoons I put ahead of C&H and those are Peanuts and The Far Side.

Or for that matter how can cartoons and illustrated books win the Caldecott and Newberry Medals for children's literature if they aren't considered literature?

Two different criteria for awards. The Caldecott medal an award for illustration. It has nothing to do about message, although I am sure that helps. The Newbury Medal is more about the actual writing than it is about the illustrations.

[Crapshoot]

This is rough - Cartman picked Rand (albeit not The Fountainhead) and Calvin and Hobbes - both of which I wrote my college essay on. That's pretty damn dear to the heart. On the other hand, NoMyths went with Catcher in the Rye and The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy - the latter being the closest thing to a bible for me. Can't split the vote - can I?

[chesapeake]

1. NoMyths
2. DaddyTorgo
3. Maple Leafs

Other than Shelby Foote, NoMyths had no holes in his list in my estimation. He picked well early with the Divine Comedy and Darwin, and held up well late with Salinger and Doyle.

I found DT's list to be very steady throughout. Anne Frank as a history and Colerigde as a poem cost Maple Leafs in my judgment.

CR had huge picks late, closing with Newton and Dostoevsky. But I couldn't count any story with 100+ pages (A Christmas Carol) as a short story, and that knocked his list out of the running for me. If it is still in print today as a hardcover, it isn't a short story.

I will freely disclose that this judge is flawed. I had a very hard time scoring sports books, as I'd only read 3 of them.

[Crapshoot]

Also,
I certainly prefer C&H to a whole bunch of "children's literature" - it holds up better. I refuse to punish Cartman for a great/innovative pick.

[Buccaneer]

So far (up to Greyfoo), I got:

Warhammer - 26
larrymcg - 17
Chief Rum - 6
NoMyths - 3
cartman - 1
Maple Leafs - 1

[Warhammer]

But that's not the argument you made. You dismissed it out of hand as "not literature".

It has to be a literative cartoon. My point is that I don't consider C&H literature, just like I don't consider The Far Side or Peanuts literature either. Also, being nominated for something is quite different than winning. There is no cartoon that I would nominate for a Pulitzer Prize for fiction. None. That doesn't mean someone else can't. That also doesn't mean that there can't be cartoons that are not great lit, but I haven't seen one yet.

[Axxon]

I declined to consider my own list so I will be voting based on the remaining contestants.

1. Maple Leafs
2. NoMyths
3. Warhammer

[Warhammer]

I declined to consider my own list so I will be voting based on the remaining contestants.

1. Maple Leafs
2. NoMyths
3. Warhammer

Go ahead and make me feel bad! :D

I'm done posting in this thread, don't want to hack off any voters.

[Crapshoot]

After more thought, my list is:

1 (tie): NoMyths
1. (tie): Cartman
3. Warhammer

[Axxon]

Go ahead and make me feel bad! :D

I'm done posting in this thread, don't want to hack off any voters.

Hey, at least you have votes.

[Abe Sargent]

I like and respect CR's pick of the Bible, but I think A Christmas Carol is very overrated, and not that good. Taking it as a short story, and that high was a massive mistake, to my mind. And Robert Frost is a poet for hacks. No respect there either.

cartman's choice for Cask, over other Poe stories puzzles me. If it had been an author draft, and he had taken Poe, he gets credit. The LotR was written as one novel, and split into three by the publisher, so I disagree with it being a series. Also, as much as I love LotR, there is NO WAY it deserves to be the second pick in the draft.

Now stcronin has soem respecful choices. Joyce is not an easy read. Faulkner is solid. Dune is good scifi. Until I get to Zen, which is another overratted book. Zen is to non-fiction whaat A Christmas Carol is to short stories. Yuk.

maple leafs - can;t go wrong with Shakespeare, and Hamlet is a good choice for him. I might have gone Tempest myself, but I respect the Hamlet choice. War of the Worlds was new, I grant you that, but HGWells was a hack. Jules Verne was the real scifi writer from that era. Teh Cat in the Hat is too obvious, and pretty weak. On the other hand, for biography, I think Confessions is an inspired choice, and one of the best selections of the draft.

DT - Major, major credit for Romance of the 3K. I think taking Foundation Series too early was hurtful, I'd rather have one of the top works in a genre that has been around for more than a hundred years, especially for series where tons of other options were available. Pelopenesian War was a hgood call, especially since you ended up with bradbury anyway at the scifi spot. You also have John Locke and Tolstoy and Whitman in there. So far, this is the best draft I've reviewed.

NoMyths - Doyle is overrated as well, and the Holmes stories are very formulaic. I'll give you credit for Darwin and Douglas, those are solid choices. the rest of your drafts makes me god ennnh.

Warhammer - Narnia is bad writing. Lewis should never have been published and no one should be reading those books. Numerous pbjective studies have been done, and the grammr is poor, and Lewis had the smallest word count among children's authors. It's banefully bad writing, and if you read it today, you can tell. No way does he deserve a spot here and ugh. The fact you have it discoutns eveyrthing else you took, to my mind. AA Milne is not far behind, either. Ugh. Worst draft with those two in your stable. I wouldn;t have either writer write my TV manual.

larrymcg - You nailed history and did it with the 8th round pick with Herodotus. That should have been the first history off the board. Verne over hacks like Wells, good call. Although he is not that good by today;s standards, Burroughs was a better writer than many of his comtemporaries, so I'll grant you that. Twain, Milton, Marx, Hitler - there's some good stuff there. You have moved to my top spot.

Izulde - There's not a bad choice here for me to zing, but other than Sun Tzu, there's not much here to praise either. Ho hum.

Axxon - I credit you for taking the Potter books. Althogh recently written they are heads and tails better than soime of these other works. Silverstein is a weak choice, to my mind. You should have put Potter in children's, and you could have gotten another series, and not have been forced to fit Silverstein into your lattice. Frankly, Stephen King is a classic example of a hack, no respect there at all, especially as a first round pick. So, I think you mishandled your list, and King had no business there.

In a literature draft, of all time, don;t take stuff that isn;t going to be read in 200-300 years. King is not the same as Dickens (and for God's sake, don't take A Christmas Carol, one of Dickens's worst works, and use it for the great author). There are writers taken that are not going to be read in a few hundred years, they do not stand the test of time

I don;t particularly care for romance, but where are those? Did no one say, let's grab one of the top romances of all time? Were the only horror writers you could think of Poe and King? (Shelly's Frankenstein is not a work of horror). Mystery was non-existant except for the overrated Wlls. And frankly, as much as I like sci-fi, there should have been no sci-fi works outside of that genre. Sci-fi has been around for a little over 100 years, romance has been around for forever, so which has the better works overall, hmm? Most of these scifi works do not hold a candle to other writings that didn;t chart. There are works that changed the world, that are not on here. There's no Plato? No Paine? The list is too 20th century weighted.

No one took Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard?

Frankly, epic poetry, like Odyssey is much different in style, form, and intent than something like Elegy. I'm not sure they belong in the same category.

I think including the scifi genre was weak, but the sports genre was super weak. Come on now. That's like including historical what-ifs as a genre.

With that, here are my top three:

1. Larrymcg
2. DaddyTorgo
3. NoMyths


Have fun all!

[lordscarlet]

After more thought, my list is:

1 (tie): NoMyths
1. (tie): Cartman
3. Warhammer

And how exactly do you expect me to score this? The best I can do is give them both 2nd place points.

[timmynausea]

And how exactly do you expect me to score this? The best I can do is give them both 2nd place points.

Why couldn't they split the 1st and 2nd place points for 4 each?

[Touchstone]

1. Warhammer
2. Maple Leafs
3. Daddy Torgo

[lordscarlet]

I think including the scifi genre was weak, but the sports genre was super weak. Come on now. That's like including historical what-ifs as a genre.



This is a message board for text sim sports games, not a Master's Lit course.

[chesapeake]

The only functional difference between Dr. Seuss and C&H is that the good Doctor's frames take up the whole page. Although I think C&H is one of the weaker entires in the children's section, I do not doubt that it qualifies for consideration.

[lordscarlet]

Why couldn't they split the 1st and 2nd place points for 4 each?

That seems a bit odd to me? Not sure. What does the peanut gallery think?

[lordscarlet]

We definitely have a clear early leader.. Through Touchstone's list (and excluding Crapshoot's) we have:


Warhammer - 37
larrymcg421 - 23
NoMyths - 15


We have a long way to go, though. Only 11 votes cast thus far.

[timmynausea]

That seems a bit odd to me? Not sure. What does the peanut gallery think?

It's your call, of course, but I'm pretty sure that's how it works in things like the college football polls. The way to think of it is that each of our ballots is worth 9 points as 5+3+1. If he has a tie for first, his total should still equal 9, so 4+4+1.

[albionmoonlight]

I think that giving 4 points each makes sense.

[Abe Sargent]

The only functional difference between Dr. Seuss and C&H is that the good Doctor's frames take up the whole page. Although I think C&H is one of the weaker entires in the children's section, I do not doubt that it qualifies for consideration.

Agreed, which is why I didn;t zing it in my overview. Cartoons count. So should comics.

[cartman]

I seem to have the most polarizing picks. There are a couple of mine that people aren't on the fence about. They either love that pick or hate it.

[chesapeake]

Good, strong opinions, Anxiety. I don't agree with you on sci-fi. It may be a comparatively young genre, but it is not weak. I'm with you on sports.

Very enjoyable draft to follow, Lordscarlet. Things like this are why I keep checking in with the board.

[lordscarlet]

Agreed, which is why I didn;t zing it in my overview. Cartoons count. So should comics.

I considered Watchmen in Fiction for my undrafted list. :) (I probably would not have considered it if I were in the 10 true picks)

[lordscarlet]

Oh, and thanks to everyone that participated in the draft. I am getting a lot of praise (thanks to those people as well), but the speed in particular was due to the great participants. I am happy to take the credit, but I did very little to keep the draft pace going (I in fact slowed it down several times. :) ). I loved participating in the Music draft. I would definitely enjoy more drafts as well. I was hoping to get the ball rolling on more drafts, so we'll see how that goes. It definitely increases the number of times I visit the board in a day.

[Radii]

haha wow, interesting reading Anxiety's comments, and his voting standards compared to the rest of us clearly shows why its best to make your draft picks geared towards a popularity contest among the masses, not someone with a masters in lit or something like that. Many of the authors that he calls hacks(and with more study in literature he may well be right, I have no clue) have written some of the most popular works ever and those hacks are bringing in the votes from me and lots of others. Very interesting.

[Super Ugly]

Seriously, awesome idea for a draft. My votes:

1) st.cronin
2) Izulde
3) NoMyths

A great selection of books all across the board, though, and some inspired choices. Surprised no one picked DeLillo's End Zone for the sports section, mind (surely would've qualified if North Dallas Forty was allowed). That's a first rate read, and highly recommended to anyone who hasn't heard of it.

[MrDNA]

Tough call, but here it is:1. NoMyths2. Warhammer3. larrymcg421


grr... my enter key isn't working! I am disenfranchised![/B]

[Sublime 2]

1. larrymcg
2. Chief Rum
3. Warhammer

[Jas_lov]

Larrymcg
Warhammer
st cronin

I think larry and warhammer are very very close. I think they should both win. And I wanted to give st. cronin some points because he has my favorite book, 1984.

[Abe Sargent]

haha wow, interesting reading Anxiety's comments, and his voting standards compared to the rest of us clearly shows why its best to make your draft picks geared towards a popularity contest among the masses, not someone with a masters in lit or something like that. Many of the authors that he calls hacks(and with more study in literature he may well be right, I have no clue) have written some of the most popular works ever and those hacks are bringing in the votes from me and lots of others. Very interesting.

True. For me, it's important to look at the work itself. I comfortable admitting popular work as quality (such as Harry Potter) when the work itself is quality. Twain is a great wordsmith, and very popular. As are writers like Poe. However, its writers like Stephen King (who is a better writer than) Milne and Lewis that are just bad writers. You can compare them to contemporaries or modern authors, their works, in writing, are just very poor.

I read a paper once where the writer took random paragrpahs from Wardrobe and compared them to random paragraphs from contemporary writers with a similar audience (like A. Merritt) and the difference is striking.

So for me, popularity is meaningless. Popular works can be great, or crap. Danielle Steele makes a lot of money, but she's a hack. Rowling makes a lot of money, but she is honestly writing the best children's series ever.

It works both ways.

[lordscarlet]

Larry is creeping toward Warhammer..

[Abe Sargent]

Larry is creeping toward Warhammer..

Sounds kinky

[Radii]

However, its writers like Stephen King (who is a better writer than) Milne and Lewis that are just bad writers. You can compare them to contemporaries or modern authors, their works, in writing, are just very poor.


Yeah, they appear to overlap quite a bit, but, for example, if no one had taken a Stephen King work or if Narnia had been left out they would have been at the top of everyone's undrafted list.

[Lathum]

MapleLeafs- Just quality all the way through.

NoMyths- Right there with Mapleleafs. His Sci-fi pick was the difference maker.

Larrymcg421—Bonus points for Mein Kampf


Cartman was right there but his Poe pick blew it for me.


Best Pick: NoMyths The Catcher in the Rye, J.D. Salinger. Getting this in round 10 was like drafting Tom Brady.

Worst Pick: Axxon Danse Macabre- A huge waste of Steven King. King works could have been used in fiction ( It, The Stand) in series ( the dark tower), fantasy ( eyes of the Dragon) and short story ( Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption). A total unexcusable waste.

[sabotai]

I had it extremely close at the end, but larry passes Warhammer mostly because of the Fiction pick. They both led some areas, both were near the top in most of them, but I didn't rate either series that high and Warhammer's Fiction was near the bottom while larry's was near the top.

1. larrymcg421
2. Warhammer
3. cartman

[Scoobz0202]

1. larrymcg421
2. Chief Rum
3. cartman

[lordscarlet]

First place is now within 2 points!

[st.cronin]

1. st.cronin
2. larrymcg
3. DaddyTorgo

Also, for those who haven't voted, I just want to point out: I have girl on girl porn.

edited for boldness

[MrDNA]

However, its writers like Stephen King (who is a better writer than) Milne and Lewis that are just bad writers.

Maybe I misread this, but are you saying A.A. Milne is a bad writer? Because if so: :eek:

It's not Faulker, but Milne's use of language is so creatively playful and inventive and a joy to read. To me, that equals good writing.

[cartman]

1. cartman
2. Maple Leafs
3. Chief Rum

Also, for those that haven't voted, I have the Kama Sutra.

[Izulde]

Since I don't believe in voting for oneself in this type of contest....

1. cartman
2. NoMyths
3. Axxon

[cartman]

I once lost an election for Patrol Leader back when I first joined the Boy Scouts because I didn't vote for myself. Never again!

[MrDNA]

Also, for those who haven't voted, I just want to point out: I have girl on girl porn.

When did this become about your screensaver?

[Izulde]

I once lost an election for Patrol Leader back when I first joined the Boy Scouts because I didn't vote for myself. Never again!

That's different, because that's a leadership/political position.

In that case, yeah I always vote for myself.

[Abe Sargent]

Maybe I misread this, but are you saying A.A. Milne is a bad writer? Because if so: :eek:

It's not Faulker, but Milne's use of language is so creatively playful and inventive and a joy to read. To me, that equals good writing.

Yes, although Richard Adams is the second worst offender of the group. I'd say CS Lewis < Adams < Milne.

[Abe Sargent]

Tell you what, why don;t we take this to another thread.

[Axxon]

1. st.cronin
2. larrymcg
3. DaddyTorgo

Also, for those who haven't voted, I just want to point out: I have girl on girl porn.

edited for boldness

I had actually considered "Heathers Two Mommies" so I'd have had girl on girl action but in the children's category. Kinky

[Maple Leafs]

1. larrymcg421
2. Chief Rum
3. Warhammer

[Eaglesfan27]

More commentary in a day or two, but the bottom line:

1) NoMyths
2) Maple Leafs
3) Warhammer

[Groundhog]

1) NoMyths
2) DaddyTorgo
3) Warhammer

[mckerney]

1) Axxon
2) larrymcg421
3) cartman

[Calis]

I went through and did a 1-10 scale much like Bucc did and ended up with these results.

1.) Warhammer (84)
2.) Larrymcg421(78)
3.) Maple Leafs(78)

Warhammer was solidly in the lead. His weakest pick was Catch-22 which I love, but I do think there were better choices out there at the time. I can't really fault anything else he has though, a lot of other guys had 1-2 picks I scored very highly, but they blew it with a couple terrible ones. Consistently good.

Larry and Maple Leafs were neck and neck obviously and I had a hard time deciding between the two. When it came down to it I thought Larry's team was a bit more consistent. It was very close though and on another day I might change my mind.

For anyone curious the next 3 in were...
Izulde(77)
Chief Rum(77)
Cartman(77)

Cartman would've been in 2nd place for me with a different fiction choice. I have a deep hatred of Ayn Rand, and while I don't think it was a bad pick I do think it is in the low end of the fiction picks, especially how early it was picked. Very solid picks otherwise.

Chief and Izulde had two of my favorite picks on the board with Lolita and Brothers Karamazov but there just wasn't quite enough else to pull them through. I'm in the group that hadn't read The Prince, and after reading up a bit on it I still think it wasn't the strongest pick out there. I also think Game of Thrones as a standalone book is a reach, so that hurt.

[Vince]

Just going to get my votes in now, and I'll keep the commentary for when I have time to really write it up.


1. larrymcg421
2. NoMyths
3. Warhammer


I looked over the teams, and slowly eliminated the teams that I didn't think were strong enough overall...I finally whittled it down to these three. I decided that I liked all of them equally, so I devised a point system based on their picks in each category. I kid you not, they all scored 20 points exactly. I think in the end it was Marx, Hitler and Herodotus who won this one for Larry on my end. More detailed description forthcoming.

[Subby]

1. MapleLeafs
2. NoMyths
3. larrymcg421

honorable mention to chief rum for The Bible

[Buccaneer]

I had it extremely close at the end, but larry passes Warhammer mostly because of the Fiction pick. They both led some areas, both were near the top in most of them, but I didn't rate either series that high and Warhammer's Fiction was near the bottom while larry's was near the top.

1. larrymcg421
2. Warhammer
3. cartman


I knew you would have the same 3. :)

[wade moore]

1. st. cronin
2. DaddyTorgo
3. Warhammer

[Izulde]

Yeah, if I had to do it over again, I would've gone with Brave New World in Sci-Fi Fantasy (which was on my board numerous times) and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory or Bridge to Terabithia in Children's, which was also on my board numerous times.

Had I made those picks, I'd probably be in the running for the title right now.

[Vince]

On each team as a whole -- I think that really every team was in this race. There isn't a team in here that I think is "bad." For me, the hardest teams to cut out of my top three were cartman, Maple Leafs and Izulde.

On categories...

Fiction: Hamlet and Huckleberry Finn are at the top of the list, with Catcher in the Rye a close third. I think I'm selling Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Shogun short since I haven't read them.

Short Story: The Dead and The Cask of Amontillado are tops here. Everything else is clumped up behind these a fair pace in my mind.

Poem: In my eyes, this was one of, if not the, strongest categories. The Iliad, The Divine Comedy and Paradise Lost top the list, with Rime of the Ancient Mariner next.

Fantasy/Sci-Fi: Another strong category. Orwell, Wells and Verne are my tops here, with not a single pick in the category hurting anyone, in my opinion.

Series: The first category in which someone's pick took them out of the running for me. Plotinus and The Six Enneads for me was the only thing that kept Maple Leafs out of my top three. I also really disliked Ender's Game as a series pick -- I think it's a MUCH stronger pick as Sci-Fi.

Sports: This might be the weakest overall category...I really only think that two of these are "great" picks - Casey at the Bat and Ball Four. All are worthy picks, but none stand out for me other than those two.

Children's: Unexpectedly (at least for me) this was an incredibly deep category, with some amazing picks lasting until very late in the draft. Brother's Grimm and Dr. Seuss remain in my top three, but Calvin and Hobbes was a brilliant selection by cartman.

Non-fiction: On the Origin of Species has to take the cake here, but I think it barely, BARELY edges out Sun Tzu's The Art of War. I also liked the picks for Wealth of Nations and the Communist Manifesto.

Bio/Auto-Bio: Some quite off-the-wall picks here, I thought. The Twelve Caesars was a huge hit to cartman's otherwise great team on my end, and the Diary of Anais Nin really had me scratching my head (especially in the 5th round). Walden, Confessions, Mein Kampf, Frederick Douglass and Night were strong contributors in this category.

History: This was probably the strongest category, even considering the heavyweights for Poem. Up and down the list you have incredible Historical Literature. I have a soft spot for Herodotus, but really there was no clear-cut winner here. I'm going to have to go read the Gulag Archipelago, as I am unfamiliar with it.

All in all, this was a blast to follow, and incredible fun to write about. Kudos to all those involved.

[AENeuman]

1. Warhammer
2. Maple Leafs
3.NoMyths

Voted on the impact of the work. After which work can you say literature in that genre changed. thanks to harold bloom i know there is a before and after hamlet. i think the same for gibbons, cs lewis, ball 4, brothers grimm, darwin (although republic would be by far the best choice), and augustine (super choice).

if the bible was in non-fiction i would have voted for it. if it is history (as claimed), then it is also non-fiction. but being in non-fiction allows the bible to be appreciated as a work of literature for more than just its history.

[Chief Rum]

I think it's interesting how people chose to draft. I think for some it was personal choice. For others, it was most popular. For others, it was "best literature". You really can't go wrong with any of them.

I'm not sure anyone took quite the tact I did. My picks were intentionally weighted toward influence. For instance, Anxiety criticizes my Dickens pick in Short Story because it isn't a particularly good book, especially for Dickens, who by rights should have had Great Expectations or Oliver Twist in this draft.

But I chose A Christmas Carol because (if you buy that it's a short story), it might be the most influential and well-known short story of all time, and it is one of those rare works that completely reinvented a huge aspect of human life, the Christmas mythos.

I may not win the draft, but I am satisfied that my picks were the sort I wanted to make. Whatever else you say about my picks, you must agree the world would be strikingly different without the contributions of Newton's work, Walden, Charlotte's Web and a Christmas Carol--not to mention that silly Bible thing. ;)

I am still considering my vote, and will post it soon.

[lordscarlet]

On each team as a whole -- I think that really every team was in this race. There isn't a team in here that I think is "bad." For me, the hardest teams to cut out of my top three were cartman, Maple Leafs and Izulde.

On categories...

Fiction: Hamlet and Huckleberry Finn are at the top of the list, with Catcher in the Rye a close third. I think I'm selling Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Shogun short since I haven't read them.

Short Story: The Dead and The Cask of Amontillado are tops here. Everything else is clumped up behind these a fair pace in my mind.

Poem: In my eyes, this was one of, if not the, strongest categories. The Iliad, The Divine Comedy and Paradise Lost top the list, with Rime of the Ancient Mariner next.

Fantasy/Sci-Fi: Another strong category. Orwell, Wells and Verne are my tops here, with not a single pick in the category hurting anyone, in my opinion.

Series: The first category in which someone's pick took them out of the running for me. Plotinus and The Six Enneads for me was the only thing that kept Maple Leafs out of my top three. I also really disliked Ender's Game as a series pick -- I think it's a MUCH stronger pick as Sci-Fi.

Sports: This might be the weakest overall category...I really only think that two of these are "great" picks - Casey at the Bat and Ball Four. All are worthy picks, but none stand out for me other than those two.

Children's: Unexpectedly (at least for me) this was an incredibly deep category, with some amazing picks lasting until very late in the draft. Brother's Grimm and Dr. Seuss remain in my top three, but Calvin and Hobbes was a brilliant selection by cartman.

Non-fiction: On the Origin of Species has to take the cake here, but I think it barely, BARELY edges out Sun Tzu's The Art of War. I also liked the picks for Wealth of Nations and the Communist Manifesto.

Bio/Auto-Bio: Some quite off-the-wall picks here, I thought. The Twelve Caesars was a huge hit to cartman's otherwise great team on my end, and the Diary of Anais Nin really had me scratching my head (especially in the 5th round). Walden, Confessions, Mein Kampf, Frederick Douglass and Night were strong contributors in this category.

History: This was probably the strongest category, even considering the heavyweights for Poem. Up and down the list you have incredible Historical Literature. I have a soft spot for Herodotus, but really there was no clear-cut winner here. I'm going to have to go read the Gulag Archipelago, as I am unfamiliar with it.

All in all, this was a blast to follow, and incredible fun to write about. Kudos to all those involved.

Did I miss the vote in there? :)

[Masked]

Great draft

1. Warhammer
2. NoMyths
3. Maple Leafs

I though all three were very good across the board, the difference was Warhammer never had a miss.

I felt short story was the best overall catagory. I had sports and biography as the weakest which isn't surprising since I read very little books in those catagories.

The childrens lit catagory was probably the most fun to score as I remembered encountering each work for the first time. Although I love C&H, I scored it fairly low - I feel like I appreciated much more later in life than I did when I was a child

[path12]

My picks:

1) NoMyths
2) Warhammer
3) st. cronin

For NoMyths, none of his choices made me say "huh?". They may not have been the top choice in every category, but they're all close. And really, he had me with Shelby Foote (which I'm currently reading for the third time).

My faves for Warhammer were Catch-22 and Ball Four which are both just stellar picks in my opinion. And damnit, I like Winnie the Pooh. The Lewis pick I'm not as fond of, and wow, anyone who gets through Gibbon gets a plus from me. He bored me to tears and I doubt I've gotten through a hundred pages of that book.

st.cronin did really well with 1984, Dune and the Dahl. I also like the pick of Zen, yeah, maybe it's best read at a certain point in ones life, but it's important at that point. Faulkner has never done much for me, same with Nin, so that's what dropped him to third.

Nice draft. I hope there's another sometime.

[albionmoonlight]

VOTE:

1) Warhammer
2) No Myths
3) larrymcg421

Maple Leafs would have been my #4 had it been allowed. I ended up giving it to larry because of Paradise Lost. Hard for me not to give some recognition to the person who managed to get the best poem ever written in the English language (IMHO) in a literature draft.

Biggest suprise--that no one picked To Kill A Mockingbird.

[lordscarlet]

Things are still very close at the top. NoMyths has really gained some ground. I'm afraid I may have made the deadline too long, but for now I will honor the original date.

[chesapeake]

I may not win the draft, but I am satisfied that my picks were the sort I wanted to make. Whatever else you say about my picks, you must agree the world would be strikingly different without the contributions of Newton's work, Walden, Charlotte's Web and a Christmas Carol--not to mention that silly Bible thing. ;)

I thought your picks -- save for Christmas Carol, which I felt was outside of the category, and Ender's Game, which as a series I just didn't think was that good -- were great.

In my judgment, you were 100% right to put the Bible into the history category. It has too much allegory to go into non-fiction without being criticized for that, and the storm you would get for putting it into fiction would have brought the roof down on the draft. But its importance as a history of Judaism and early Christianity is undeniable, even to someone like me who isn't religious.

Also, it allowed you to pick Newton, which I felt was the best late-round pick in the draft.

[lordscarlet]

For me, the Bible pick is likely to disqualify you from getting any points. :) (I haven't had the time to rank anyone yet).

[Chief Rum]

For me, the Bible pick is likely to disqualify you from getting any points. :) (I haven't had the time to rank anyone yet).

Man, don't I get brownie points for starting your draft off with a bang? :D

[3ric]

1) Chief Rum
2) NoMyths
3) Warhammer

Chief had my top choice in three categories which was enough for a narrow win over NoMyths, who had two. Warhammer also had two categories with the best choice, but fewer picks that were close to the top, IMHO.

[Critch]

1) NoMyths
2) Larrymcg421
3) DaddyTorgo

(using the Bucc Scoring Convention)

[Vince]

Did I miss the vote in there? :)

Haha, yeah, it's three or four posts before my breakdown :)

[Vince]

In my judgment, you were 100% right to put the Bible into the history category. It has too much allegory to go into non-fiction without being criticized for that, and the storm you would get for putting it into fiction would have brought the roof down on the draft. But its importance as a history of Judaism and early Christianity is undeniable, even to someone like me who isn't religious.

See, I think this is particularly why I don't look at the Bible as a particularly amazing pick. It doesn't really fit a category very well. As an Historical work, I don't think that it holds up or is as meaningful as someone like Gibbon, Herodotus or even Thucydides. I think that perhaps the Old Testament would have been a better selection (at least in my mind).

[Barkeep49]

Two different criteria for awards. The Caldecott medal an award for illustration. It has nothing to do about message, although I am sure that helps. The Newbury Medal is more about the actual writing than it is about the illustrations.
While you are correct that the Newbery is about writing quality rather than illustrations, the Caldecott is awarded to the best picture book. Both the illustrations, and text (if any), are considered. I guarantee you that there were many books this year with better pictures than The Invention of Hugo Cabret but there was no better picture book.

[larrymcg421]

Here are my thoughts and my votes at the bottom....

Fiction - Hamlet (Maple Leafs), Lolita (Izulde), Catcher in the Rye (NoMyths)

Some good choices here, although I'd argue Shogun was taken a little early. Probably shoudl have had two categories here, so we could have covered more ground. Atlas Shrugged over To Kill a Mockingbird, In Cold Blood, Uncle Tom's Cabin, or a ton of other titles is pretty disappointing.


Short Story - Flowers for Algernon (Warhammer), The Lottery (Axxon), A Christmas Carol (Chief Rum)

Strategy here seemed to go after notable authors, instead of memorable stories. Not really a complete miss, but my top 3 reflect some of the most memorable short stories I've read.


Poem - Divine Comedy (NoMyths), Rime of the Ancient Mariner (Maple Leads), The Iliad (Warhammer)

Amazing that the Aeneid was excluded from this list, but there's not a miss in this group either. Warhammer would have won this category for me if he had picked The Odyssey.


Fantasy/SciFi - War of the Worlds (Maple Leafs), Fahrenheit 451 (DaddyTorgo), 1984 (st. cronin)

Pretty deep group here as well. I even like the Philip Dick choice, and Slaughterhouse-five was an imaginative pick for this category. Surprised Ringworld and 2001 did not make it.


Series - Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (No Myths), Harry Potter (Axxon), Lord of the Rings (cartman)

Top 3 was easy to pick here, as they stand out well above the rest of the class. After Musketeers and Dune, it gets especially weak. Narnia (specifically LW&W) would have been a better Children's choice.


Sports - Casey at the Bat (cartman), Friday Night Lights (NoMyths), Ball Four (Warhammer)

Bang the Drum Slowly and Moneyball were missed picks here. Maybe even Bill James Historical Abstract. Don't understand the Miracle of Castel di Siangro pick. It may be good (I don't know), but it's certainly not one of the most notable sports books that could have been chosen, and if there's one author that doesn't deserve to be taken in this draft, it's Joe McGinnis.


Children's - The Cat in the Hat (Maple Leafs), Children's and Household Tales (Brothers Grimm), Winnie the Pooh (Warhammer)

It was hard to come up with a top 3 here. I don't really dislike any pick, and Charlotte's Web, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, and Where the Sidewalk Ends were close behind the top 3.


Non Fiction - On the Origin of Species (NoMyths), Kama Sutra (cartman), Art of War (SunTzu)

Danse Macabre? If the idea was to screw up the draft for everyone else so King couldn't be picked in Series, Short Story, or Fiction, then good job. However,k it also screwed up your draft as well. The rest of the picks are fine. Locke and Smith were close to the top 3.


Bio/Autobio - Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, an American Slave (NoMyths), Night (Izulde), Walden (Chief Rum)

No particularly bad selections, but there were some really good options out there that got overlooked, such as Sandburg's Lincoln.


History - The Diary of Anne Frank (Maple Leafs), The Bible (Chief Rum), History of the Pelopennisian War (DaddyTorgo)

All the President's Men is an interesting selection, but I don't think it really fit the category.


I rated using a similar system as others (excluding myself eventhough it could cost me the victory). My grades are more generous than others, so that's why the final scores are so high.

NoMyths - 85
Maple Leafs - 81
Warhammer - 79
Izulde - 78
DaddyTorgo - 72
st. cronin - 72
Chief Rum - 71
cartman - 69
Axxon - 66


As for my own picks, I was pretty happy with everything I was able to get, especially Herodotus in the 8th round. I targeted Twain from the beginning was was determined to get it in the first round if available. I think it was a great pick, but in retrospect it was probably bad strategy. I misjudged how thin the series category would be, and should've gone after that first. If I had taken Hitchhiker's or something else early, I could have still got a top quality fiction late in the draft. (I definitely would've taken Mockingbird in the 10th round).

[digamma]

1. NoMyths
2. Cartman
3. Maple Leafs

[NoMyths]

Just got back from Kansas. I had a blast with this draft -- glad to see such an interest in literature. I'll have further comments on the draft and related esoterica Sunday, after I've recovered.

I appreciate the support from so many of you for my picks. :)

[lordscarlet]

Man, don't I get brownie points for starting your draft off with a bang? :D

The start of the draft was as unexpected as possible. ;)

Haha, yeah, it's three or four posts before my breakdown :)


Oh, then I got it. :)


The draft has taken quite a turn.. NoMyths has passed cartman and is only 3 points behind Warhammer. I was thinkin gthat I may have made the deadline too far in the future, but things are just now getting interesting. The top 3 spots are within 7 points of each other. It'll be a race to Monday evening!

[Chief Rum]

Well, better get my vote in now. Some very good entries by everyone.


1. No Myths
2. MapleLeafs
3. Chief Rum

[chesapeake]

See, I think this is particularly why I don't look at the Bible as a particularly amazing pick. It doesn't really fit a category very well. As an Historical work, I don't think that it holds up or is as meaningful as someone like Gibbon, Herodotus or even Thucydides. I think that perhaps the Old Testament would have been a better selection (at least in my mind).

"History" is defined as a continuous, systematic narrative of past events as relating to a particular people, country, period or person. If you substitute the Bible" for "history" in that sentence, I don't think anyone would argue with you in the least.

Just like we cut Herodotus some slack for many of his mistakes and inaccuracies, I think you need to cut the Bible some as well, especially considering that much of what it chronicles, and has subsequently been verified by archaeological efforts, predates our Greek friends by well more than 500 years.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by your use of "meaningful." Even if we confine the word specifically to the Bible's importance as an historical document, I would argue that it has spawned more historical discussion among scholars and certainly more archaeological efforts than all three of the works you cited put together.

[Calis]

"History" is defined as a continuous, systematic narrative of past events as relating to a particular people, country, period or person. If you substitute the Bible" for "history" in that sentence, I don't think anyone would argue with you in the least.

Just like we cut Herodotus some slack for many of his mistakes and inaccuracies, I think you need to cut the Bible some as well, especially considering that much of what it chronicles, and has subsequently been verified by archaeological efforts, predates our Greek friends by well more than 500 years.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by your use of "meaningful." Even if we confine the word specifically to the Bible's importance as an historical document, I would argue that it has spawned more historical discussion among scholars and certainly more archaeological efforts than all three of the works you cited put together.

I think the greater issue for me, I agree that it's a very important historical document, is the authorship. Works by collective authors are disallowed, and if you're looking at the Bible in a purely historical sense and using God as the author, well that's a bit tough for some us to swallow.

If that rule wasn't in place I'd say it was a fantastic pick, but that's the reason I docked it several points, because I didn't feel it followed the rules of the game.

[chesapeake]

Works by collective authors are disallowed, and if you're looking at the Bible in a purely historical sense and using God as the author, well that's a bit tough for some us to swallow.

Ahh. You've got me there. It is most certainly a work by collective authors. I missed that criterion. My bad.

[NoMyths]

So I've considered the lineups and am very pleased -- so many great choices were listed, and I hope anyone interested in literature refers to this draft as a resource for finding some great texts. All of the participants listed some great choices for reading material. Narrowing down the "winner" of the competition, though, is the nature of the draft, and as such here are my thoughts and vote. When it came to the top teams, I compared the lists side by side and asked which one, in total, seemed strongest. Then I went pick by pick to determine how much better they were. The top of the list was pretty close. I thought larry, Maple Leafs, cartman, and Warhammer all had the strongest lists. As Chief Rum's vote has currently put me into the lead, I suppose I'll follow Warhammer's (current in second-place) and name my lineup tops. I'm pleased with my list, especially picking in the middle of the order each time. Getting Catcher in the 10th was pretty satisfying. Next, I felt larry had the next strongest lineup from top to bottom. It was close between Maple Leafs and cartman, but at the end of the day, ML's list compelled me more. So:

1. NoMyths
2. larrymcg421
3. Maple Leafs

[NoMyths]

dola...

I'd also like to list my favorite picks for each category, excluding my own:

Fiction - Hamlet, Maple Leafs
Short Story - A Christmas Carol, Chief Rum
Poem - Paradise Lost, larrymcg421 (with st. cronin's pick of my poem as a special jury prize :) )
Fantasy/Sci-Fi: Alice in Wonderland, cartman
Series: Lord of the Rings, cartman
Sports: Casey at the Bat, cartman (I wanted to take Moneyball, but felt it'd fall flat with the voters -- hell of a book)
Children's: The Cat in the Hat, Maple Leafs
Non-Fic: The Communist Manifesto, larrymcg421
Bio/Auto: Night, Izulde
History: Gibbon, Warhammer

[lordscarlet]

Well, I didn't get time to make a good review of the lists, so I will leave the results as they stand...


Your winners are.........


NoMyths
Warhammer
larrymcg421

[Vince]

"History" is defined as a continuous, systematic narrative of past events as relating to a particular people, country, period or person. If you substitute the Bible" for "history" in that sentence, I don't think anyone would argue with you in the least.

Just like we cut Herodotus some slack for many of his mistakes and inaccuracies, I think you need to cut the Bible some as well, especially considering that much of what it chronicles, and has subsequently been verified by archaeological efforts, predates our Greek friends by well more than 500 years.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by your use of "meaningful." Even if we confine the word specifically to the Bible's importance as an historical document, I would argue that it has spawned more historical discussion among scholars and certainly more archaeological efforts than all three of the works you cited put together.

You make very good points, and I need to tip my cap to you because of them. My bias has more to do with my opinion of religion (and organized religion specifically) than anything else, I'd imagine. Between the multiple contributors (though admittedly, one could claim there was one contributor speaking through many mouths) and the highly debated veracity of many of the accounts therein, I am circumspect to accept the bible as an actual historical work.

[cartman]

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Karlifornia]

1)Warhammer
2)NoMyths
3)Maple Leafs

[NoMyths]

I need to extend a bunch of thanks for those members who supported my list.

Special Place in Heaven
chesapeake
MrDNA
EaglesFan27
crapshoot
Groundhog
path12
Critch
larrymcg421
digamma
Chief Rum

In the face of a whole lot of countertalk y'all went to the lists and supported the value you found there. I appreciate it.

Special Place in Purgatory
Surtt
Axxon
Lathum
Izulde
Vince
Subby
Masked
albionmoonlight
3ric

Y'all thought I shouldn't win, but still gave me props for a solid list. It's appreciated.

Special Place in Hays, Kansas
timmynausea
Radii
Greyroofoo
Anxiety
Super Ugly
AENeuman

Well, the six points I got from third place votes didn't quite make up the difference between winning and losing, but I appreciate the thought. Because hell yeah. ;)

Special Place Playing Patty-cake with Bucc, who Hated On Me Almost Unrelentingly
Everyone else.

:D

Seriously: good times, and I'm glad the draft was as much fun as I'd hoped it would be. I'd especially like to extend my good wishes to larrymcg421, who I felt had a very strong draft throughout, and whom I'd have enjoyed seeing win the whole thing if I hadn't. :)

[wade moore]

So - does NM get the choice now to either run or get a slot in the next one?

[Buccaneer]

NM, and yet I had you solidly in the middle of my list? In looking back at my scores, I did knock you down for the one sub-genre that I know very well - History, esp. Civil War literature. Yet got the points for famousness with Shelby Foote but no Civil War reader/historican will take his narrative more seriously than a folktale with a anti-Reconstructionist bias. Foote is a Southern folklorist and a good fictional writer, not in History though. :)

[Crim]

I had Warhammer first, and larry barely edging out cartman for second. Chiefrum was one point behind for fourth place. Fifth? NoMyths!

Congratulations, NM, for me this was an extremely tight call at the top, and even my tenth-highest scorer (Axxon, if you must know) scored 9's in two categories for me.

cartman won FOUR categories on my board, but suffered in Fantasy, Biography, and History.

This was a lot of fun to follow, guys!

[NoMyths]

NM, and yet I had you solidly in the middle of my list? In looking back at my scores, I did knock you down for the one sub-genre that I know very well - History, esp. Civil War literature. Yet got the points for famousness with Shelby Foote but no Civil War reader/historican will take his narrative more seriously than a folktale with a anti-Reconstructionist bias. Foote is a Southern folklorist and a good fictional writer, not in History though. :)

Had you promoted my list as being one of the top ones at any point in the draft, especially prior to the pick you point out, perhaps you wouldn't be playing patty-cake with everyone else who didn't even have me in the top three. ;)

My history pick came pretty late in the day, oh ye of little support. And besides, as has been exhaustively mentioned: the voters decide the list they like, not historians. I'm sure the folks you did spend many posts praising appreciated the enthusiasm. :)

[NoMyths]

I had Warhammer first, and larry barely edging out cartman for second. Chiefrum was one point behind for fourth place. Fifth? NoMyths!

Congratulations, NM, for me this was an extremely tight call at the top, and even my tenth-highest scorer (Axxon, if you must know) scored 9's in two categories for me.

cartman won FOUR categories on my board, but suffered in Fantasy, Biography, and History.

This was a lot of fun to follow, guys!

Thanks, Crim. :)

[Warhammer]

Can I shoot Karlifornia for not voting until after the results were in? His vote could have been the difference!

[Crim]

Can I shoot Karlifornia for not voting until after the results were in? His vote could have been the difference!

Yeah, I didn't make it in either, WH. Hadda work all weekend, didn't get a chance to realy sit down and look at all the teams until this morning. Still a fine effort for you. No weaknesses at all. On my board your lowest entry was actually your 2nd rounder, the Narnia series. And I haven't read it, so I couldn't rate it higher than, say, LOTR (I agree with cartman that this is a series, btw); Ender (although this was def. in the wrong category, the first two or three books were incredible); Dune (see: Ender); Musketeers (haven't read this since probably 9th grade, but wow!); or Hitchhiker's (random and uneven, but genius in several places). I also rated Harry Potter higher, only through reputation and the say-so of many of my friends.

[Buccaneer]

NoMyths - the definition of a sore winner. :)

[Lathum]

So - does NM get the choice now to either run or get a slot in the next one?

we gonna get an answer to this?

[NoMyths]

we gonna get an answer to this?

I'm interested to know as well. :)

[wade moore]

I'm interested to know as well. :)

Well - it's not like there's a Draft Police (except for maybe ML)..

I'd say yes - you get the choice of either running it or passing the baton to someone and you automatically get a slot in the draft (I think Lathum has already offered).

[Lathum]

Well - it's not like there's a Draft Police (except for maybe ML)..

I'd say yes - you get the choice of either running it or passing the baton to someone and you automatically get a slot in the draft (I think Lathum has already offered).

I actualy can't run one now.

My mother in law is in dire need of a heart transplant and god willing will be getting one within a month.

I would hate to leave everyone hanging when I inevitably have to drop everything.

That being said I very much want to participate in the next draft since my wife will be visiting her mom who is in Columbia Prespetiria in NYC this weekend and I will have loads of free time.

[st.cronin]

I would be willing to run one, and would like to do so. I have a couple of ideas but would like to hear others.

[Lathum]

I would be willing to run one, and would like to do so. I have a couple of ideas but would like to hear others.

not sure how much interest you'll get from a 9th century philosophers draft :D

[NoMyths]

I'd definitely like to hear some ideas for a popular draft. And st. cronin, I'd be glad to pass the baton for running it over to you (you did, after all, include me in your draft list ;) ). Perhaps once we have some ideas narrowed down we can agree on the final topic. And yes, it will be fun to participate again.

Not entirely sure which drafts have been run except for Music and Literature. Has film been done? That would be a lot of fun.

[lordscarlet]

I would definitely love to participate in a draft if its not too far out of my wheel house. I believe ML said he would love to see us continue doing drafts, so I say run with it. I don't think we should setup a formal schedule like FTB, as that will be doomed for failure. Whenever NM (or whoever) feels we are ready to do another one, just get it going.

[Maple Leafs]

Hey guys...

Anyone who wants to run a draft can feel free to give it a shot. All I ask if that you put some thought into the subject/categories, and understand it will take a decent amount of time to run. I'd hate to see too many start and then fizzle.

Other than that, go for it.

[lordscarlet]

I'd definitely like to hear some ideas for a popular draft. And st. cronin, I'd be glad to pass the baton for running it over to you (you did, after all, include me in your draft list ;) ). Perhaps once we have some ideas narrowed down we can agree on the final topic. And yes, it will be fun to participate again.

Not entirely sure which drafts have been run except for Music and Literature. Has film been done? That would be a lot of fun.

I think you need to be a dictator about it. Figure out some ideas, maybe toss the idea around with 1 or 2 people whose opinion you trust. Trying to discuss it in the open is probably more trouble than it's worth. :) Just make sure you don't do something too similar to a previous draft. Movies have been done before, for example, but I believe it was actors/actresses.

[st.cronin]

Not entirely sure which drafts have been run except for Music and Literature. Has film been done? That would be a lot of fun.

I don't think film has been done. If you have any ideas, pm me.

[Lathum]

PM sent

[Crim]

I don't think film has been done. If you have any ideas, pm me.

I sexted you.

[Butter]

Voting for yourself is SUCH poor form.

[Calis]

I don't think film has been done. If you have any ideas, pm me.

We had one for Actor/Actresses/Directors, but I don't believe there was an actual film draft.

Would be a good one.

[Buccaneer]

Next time, I suggest we do not allow participants to vote (esp. for themselves). That is so cheesy.

[chesapeake]

Congratulations, NoMyths. I thought it was a well-deserved honor.

And three more cheers for lordscarlet. Great draft from start to finish.

[Maple Leafs]

Next time, I suggest we do not allow participants to vote (esp. for themselves). That is so cheesy.
The participants are often among the most informed voters. And if somebody really wants to help their own cause, they'd be just as likely to vote strategically even if they couldn't vote for themselves.

[st.cronin]

We could not allow participants to vote at all.

[lordscarlet]

The start of the draft was as unexpected as possible. ;)



er.. that should have read "expected" :)

Congratulations, NoMyths. I thought it was a well-deserved honor.

And three more cheers for lordscarlet. Great draft from start to finish.

Thanks again. :p

[Warhammer]

We could not allow participants to vote at all.

I think this is the best solution.

While I would typically look at voting for yourself poor form, I also think it is lunacy not to do it if it is allowed. Just my .02.

[lordscarlet]

We could not allow participants to vote at all.

The only problem with that is that it reduces the number of votes by 25%.

[Lathum]

Why not participants just can't vote for themselves?

[Scoobz0202]

Mmm.. if they really wanted to, they still could vote in a way to make it to their advantage.

I'm in the "participants should not vote" camp.

[Warhammer]

Mmm.. if they really wanted to, they still could vote in a way to make it to their advantage.

Yep.

[NoMyths]

While I would typically look at voting for yourself poor form, I also think it is lunacy not to do it if it is allowed. Just my .02.

Typically obviously didn't include this draft, nor should it have. As Maple Leafs pointed out, it's a strategic move in a game, not a moral judgment.

As far as my vote was concerned, it's the reason why in my 'vote' post I had the disclaimer. I pointed out that a) I was in the lead near the deadline and b) The person in second place had already voted for themselves--and not voted my list as any place--earlier in the process, and if a last-minute vote came for them it would leave me in second.

This discussion is kind of silly.

[wade moore]

What I know has been done:

Music
Literature
Movie
History
Video Game Character (ugh)
NFL Player

Am I missing anything? I think several of these could easily be done again if you change up the categories or shift the focus (like actors instead of movies or totally different genres or whatever).

The glaring ommissions to me:

Something to do with TV
Fine Arts (art, sculpture, etc)
Sports other than the NFL
Geography (although a similar type of game with geography was done with "expert judges")

[Butter]

There was definitely a TV one. If I wasn't involved, I sure remember reading it.

[Buccaneer]

At leat two geography ones were done early by WSUCoug, I was the judge of one of them and I forget the other.

TV was done but don't know the details.

One of the msot clever drafts was the first one with NFL Players but you create a 22-man roster using a finite amount of bidding points. Very, very strategic. I believe WSUCoug ran that one as well.

[wade moore]

Good find Ronnie.

I do still say that any of the ones that have been done could be done again if changed up enough.

[sabotai]

What I know has been done:

Music
Literature
Movie
History
Video Game Character (ugh)
NFL Player

Am I missing anything? I think several of these could easily be done again if you change up the categories or shift the focus (like actors instead of movies or totally different genres or whatever).

Movies has not been done (I never found it if it was), but an Actor/Actress/Directors draft was.

There was a Comedian draft and a Sports Moments draft done as well.

[Lathum]

someone needs to do a movie draft, it needs to start this weekend. K. Thx

[Warhammer]

Regarding participant votes, why don't we have them PM'd to the person who runs the draft? Participants cannot vote for themselves. That way shenanigans are minimized.

[lordscarlet]

Regarding participant votes, why don't we have them PM'd to the person who runs the draft? Participants cannot vote for themselves. That way shenanigans are minimized.

Then people can't discuss their thoughts on the draft as easily.

[Scoobz0202]

Maybe once the draft is over, allow the people that were in the draft to pm their top 3 to whoever is running the draft. They are not allowed to discuss their picks until all are submitted. They cannot vote for themselves.

Once they are all submitted open the voting to the public.

[lordscarlet]

Maybe once the draft is over, allow the people that were in the draft to pm their top 3 to whoever is running the draft. They are not allowed to discuss their picks until all are submitted. They cannot vote for themselves.

Once they are all submitted open the voting to the public.

I think that's a good way to bring the entire process to a screeching halt. I think the 9 or 10 day start to finish for this draft was rather perfect. The way described above could easily add 4 or 5 days.. maybe even a week.

[Maple Leafs]

My two cents: you guys are taking the voting too seriously. The fun is in the draft. The winner doesn't really matter, that part is only there to give people a reason to put a little bit of effort into it.

If you had fun with the draft, who really cares how many votes you got?

[Lathum]

My two cents: you guys are taking the voting too seriously. The fun is in the draft. The winner doesn't really matter, that part is only there to give people a reason to put a little bit of effort into it.

If you had fun with the draft, who really cares how many votes you got?

+1

[NoMyths]

My two cents: you guys are taking the voting too seriously. The fun is in the draft. The winner doesn't really matter, that part is only there to give people a reason to put a little bit of effort into it.

If you had fun with the draft, who really cares how many votes you got?

Word.

[lordscarlet]

Exactly. Just let people vote. :)

[cartman]

My two cents: you guys are taking the voting too seriously. The fun is in the draft. The winner doesn't really matter, that part is only there to give people a reason to put a little bit of effort into it.

If you had fun with the draft, who really cares how many votes you got?

Is that you, Mike Huckabee?

:D

[wade moore]

I'm with ML.

[Crim]

My two cents: you guys are taking the voting too seriously. The fun is in the draft. The winner doesn't really matter, that part is only there to give people a reason to put a little bit of effort into it.

If you had fun with the draft, who really cares how many votes you got?

Lissen ta this guy, he speeks truthe. +1