Have you ever cheated on a spouse/long-term other?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

The discussion in the 'Moment of Truth' thread brought this to my head. I'm happily married for nearly 10 years and I honestly would never cheat on my wife, even if I knew she'd never find out. The guilt for following through on such a selfish act would drive me up a wall.

With that said, over half of all marriages end in divorce. Many of those marriages end because people didn't fully get to know each other and dive into marriage long before their ready. I'm curious. Have you ever cheated on a spouse/significant other? Were you ever found out if you did and do you feel guilty or not?

[albionmoonlight]

Nope. Not in a "I'm so much more moral than you guys" sort of way. Just never cheated nor wanted to cheat.

Even when I was single, I didn't really go for the flings and one night stands. As the poll question notes--not my style.

[albionmoonlight]

dola--

And come on Mizzou BB Fan, we all know the truth. You are really telling us that, over the past few years, you haven't even been tempted to play a little XBOX 360? Not even once? Not even if Sony never found out?

;)

[molson]

JimmyWint is in the house

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

dola--

And come on Mizzou BB Fan, we all know the truth. You are really telling us that, over the past few years, you haven't even been tempted to play a little XBOX 360? Not even once. Not even if Sony never found out?

;)

Well, that's another story and a whole lotta therapy. I'm going to steer clear of that. :)

[Noop]

I have never been married but I have cheated on a former girlfriend. It was toward the end of the relationship where we both knew it was over but still hung around for awhile. It wasn't a one night stand more like a whole summer fling but it helped me get over my ex.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

One other thing......

After watching the first two seasons of 'Big Love' on HBO and seeing what a pain in the ass it can be to keep more than one woman happy, I'm even less inclined to cheat than before, if that's possible.

[ThunderingHERD]

What about: "Nope. Never had a good enough offer."?

[Dr. Sak]

One other thing......

After watching the first two seasons of 'Big Love' on HBO and seeing what a pain in the ass it can be to keep more than one woman happy, I'm even less inclined to cheat than before, if that's possible.

If I am Bill and I have my choice of Margene, Nikki, and Barb...I am keeping all three. :)

[lordscarlet]

I don't think the answers here will reflect America as a whole. :)

[Eaglesfan27]

I've been tempted once or twice, but I've never cheated. I just couldn't face my wife after doing that even if I knew I would never be caught.

[wade moore]

I've been tempted once or twice, but I've never cheated. I just couldn't face my wife after doing that even if I knew I would never be caught.+1

[Noop]

Here is a better question. Who cheats more men or women?

[molson]

Here is a better question. Who cheats more men or women?

I would guess women. I think they're better at justifying it in their own minds as being the husband's/boyfriend's fault somehow.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I have never cheated on my wife, but I have cheated off my wife on an exam. It was a prostate exam.

welp

[Eaglesfan27]

I have never cheated on my wife, but I have cheated off my wife on an exam. It was a prostate exam.

welp

Did you pass?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Did you pass?
I passed something, but I'm not exactly sure what it was.

[Marc Vaughan]

I have never cheated on my wife, but I have cheated off my wife on an exam. It was a prostate exam.

welp

Class :D

[MJ4H]

There's a class for that test? Dammit

[Radii]

I would guess women. I think they're better at justifying it in their own minds as being the husband's/boyfriend's fault somehow.

I'd say a combination of this and simply availability.


As to the original question, I've never cheated on anyone, have been cheated on in at least one relationship and I'm 90% sure in another as well but never found out for sure.

[BrianD]

I would guess women. I think they're better at justifying it in their own minds as being the husband's/boyfriend's fault somehow.

I would assume the other way since men seem to be better able to separate the act from the emotion.

I have never cheated nor do I think I ever would. There is a part of me though that wonders what would happen if I got a really good offer...or if I was drunk and got a really good offer. I still don't think that would be enough, but people are fallible...

Edit: I just double-checked with dictionary.com to make sure I spelled 'fallible' right and I see that word is dictionary.com's word of the day. Odd.

[RendeR]

Wow, reading this thread really shows me how unique my life is. I can't even really comment on the topic as it doesn't relate. I am simply in an extremely happy minority and will stay that way =)

[finkenst]

have had the opportunity but no way at all.

[RendeR]

DOLA: and there is no poll selection that fits my response to this, so I didn't vote.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Wow, reading this thread really shows me how unique my life is. I can't even really comment on the topic as it doesn't relate. I am simply in an extremely happy minority and will stay that way =)

What? Are you some sort of swinger or something?

[Fidatelo]

So basically RendeR has an open relationship. Interesting.

[DeToxRox]

I tried this thing called the Stranger once..

[Pumpy Tudors]

RendeR did make a mention in another thread about how he was doing something with his girlfriend, and he acknowledged that he's married. So, um, yeah.

[Honolulu_Blue]

RendeR did make a mention in another thread about how he was doing something with his girlfriend, and he acknowledged that he's married. So, um, yeah.

http://nymag.com/images/2/daily/entertainment/07/07/03_biglove_lg.jpg

[Julio Riddols]

I've never been struck with the desire to cheat. I couldn't say for sure what I would do if I was in a lukewarm relationship that wasn't going to go anywhere and was presented the opportunity, but when I am with someone who isn't just on a "trial basis" so to speak, I have rarely found myself with the desire to spend time with anyone but the one I am in a relationship with.

Not to say that I might wander if a once good relationship went sour, but that I might be more likely to be tempted if I am just dating someone casually that I don't see a future with.

[Eaglesfan27]

RendeR did make a mention in another thread about how he was doing something with his girlfriend, and he acknowledged that he's married. So, um, yeah.

Isn't his wife Telle on here, or am I mixing up people?

[Maple Leafs]

Render's a Sabres fan. Everybody screws him.

[CamEdwards]

Isn't his wife Telle on here, or am I mixing up people?

She is. AND I think she's Face the Board eligible. :D

[Pumpy Tudors]

Render's a Sabres fan. Everybody screws him.
Just damn.

[Schmidty]

Not ever, although I doubt anyone can say they haven't at least thought of it on occasion.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Render's a Sabres fan. Everybody screws him.

Classic.

[RendeR]

What? Are you some sort of swinger or something?


No, swinging is gross. Sex without love is a waste.

[RendeR]

So basically RendeR has an open relationship. Interesting.


No, this is not true either.

[RendeR]

RendeR did make a mention in another thread about how he was doing something with his girlfriend, and he acknowledged that he's married. So, um, yeah.


Oh hell, Pumpy saw that..Now I'm screwed. My secret's out.

[RendeR]

http://nymag.com/images/2/daily/entertainment/07/07/03_biglove_lg.jpg


I'm lost, why is this image relevant?

[Scoobz0202]

Never have. Never will.

Being unfaithful to me is one of the worst things you can do to a person. It is something that I personally would never want to put somebody through, and something I will not put up with.

Been cheated on once. Cared greatly for the girl. But I just could not be with somebody who has done that to me. And using alcohol as an excuse is one thing that pisses me off even more.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Wow, reading this thread really shows me how unique my life is. I can't even really comment on the topic as it doesn't relate. I am simply in an extremely happy minority and will stay that way =)

DOLA: and there is no poll selection that fits my response to this, so I didn't vote.

I'm lost, why is this image relevant?

I was lost first.

You explain, then I explain.

[RendeR]

Isn't his wife Telle on here, or am I mixing up people?

Yes, Telle == Mrs. RendeR

Render's a Sabres fan. Everybody screws him.

Just....ouch man, holy shit. At least we're not from Toronto....

She is. AND I think she's Face the Board eligible. :D

Doh, now yer just being mean ;) Though she hasn't been on here much lately, lot of stuff going on for her these days. You could try and get her to answer stuff. No worries on my part.

[Groundhog]

Once at the very start of a relationship that ended up bombing anyhow (and hadn't properly started at this point), and another time during a relationship. The later time I didn't even go all the way but still felt horrible enough for months afterwards to not want to do it again.

Alcohol is a terrible thing at times.

[CamEdwards]

lot of stuff going on for her these days.

Apparently. :p

[RendeR]

Apparently. :p


She's just been really busy since the holidays, me, kids, a charity she is a primary officer of, and probably half a dozen other things on top of a full time job. She's an amazing woman and I'm the luckiest guy to have her for my wife =)

[CamEdwards]

She's just been really busy since the holidays, me, kids, a charity she is a primary officer of, and probably half a dozen other things on top of a full time job. She's an amazing woman and I'm the luckiest guy to have her for my wife =)

I'm just kidding. Everyone always remarks on how happy my wife and I are to spend time together, so I know what you mean.

Still doesn't mean I don't longingly look at the women wearing knee high boots with skirts however. :p

[RendeR]

I'm just kidding. Everyone always remarks on how happy my wife and I are to spend time together, so I know what you mean.

Still doesn't mean I don't longingly look at the women wearing knee high boots with skirts however. :p


I work as a lab technician (IT) at a tiny private college here in Buffalo, the student body(s) are 75% female and I understand the skirts and boots line ENTIRELY. Good lord who taught these kids how to dress???

[Izulde]

Depends on the type of cheating you're talking about.

The act of sleeping with somebody else, not that big a deal.

It's emotional cheating that I won't tolerate.

[RendeR]

Depends on the type of cheating you're talking about.

The act of sleeping with somebody else, not that big a deal.

It's emotional cheating that I won't tolerate.


Now thats a definitely different viewpoint, thank you for saying so.

[ThunderingHERD]

Depends on the type of cheating you're talking about.

The act of sleeping with somebody else, not that big a deal.

It's emotional cheating that I won't tolerate.

This sounds like someone whose idea of relationships is primarily informed by Meg Ryan movies.

[RendeR]

This sounds like someone whose idea of relationships is primarily informed by Meg Ryan movies.


Everyone's view of relationships is different.

Friends
Friends with benefits
fuck-buddies
lovers
girlfriends
wives
sexual tension relievers

What I always had the biggest issue with was the "who do you belong to" concept.until I finally figured out that no one belongs TO anyone. You may belon WITH someone or many someones, who really knows?

I almost always get asked "Well what happens when so and so demands too much of your time or when so and so gets jealous" and no matter how i try to explain it, it remains a connundrm for most people.

Jealousy is a completely wasted emotion. It creates conflict, causes anger and pain and does noting but destroy relationships.

Be done with it I say. Drop kick the jealousy and your life will be a brighter place.

but I babble.

[Eaglesfan27]

Couples therapy isn't my speciality, and never was, but "open relationships" almost never work in the long term in the experience of myself and almost every colleague who I've ever discussed the topic with at various seminars.

[RendeR]

Couples therapy isn't my speciality, and never was, but "open relationships" almost never work in the long term in the experience of myself and almost every colleague who I've ever discussed the topic with at various seminars.

Perhaps your, and their, definition of "open relatoinships" is entirely too broad a pen to stroke with?

There are thousands of relatoinsip-types out there, whats best for some folks is worst for others, we're human, we can't all conform to any one ideal of what should work.

Everything boils down to monogamy or polygamy (not in the marriage definition, but in the relationship one).

Can we truly 'Love' more than one other person? There is no right answer there. many people say no way. Some will say Maybe and still others will say of course we can, we do it all the time.

What 'works' and what doesn't is entirely up to the individuals involved and anyone sitting back counting beans and trying to juge such things is wasting their time and effort.

hrm, I seemed to lose track of my point there somewhere, sorry for that.

[ThunderingHERD]

Depends on the type of cheating you're talking about.

The act of sleeping with somebody else, not that big a deal.

It's emotional cheating that I won't tolerate.

Also: I picked blackberries with your girlfriend last night.

[Eaglesfan27]

Perhaps your, and their, definition of "open relatoinships" is entirely too broad a pen to stroke with?

There are thousands of relatoinsip-types out there, whats best for some folks is worst for others, we're human, we can't all conform to any one ideal of what should work.

Everything boils down to monogamy or polygamy (not in the marriage definition, but in the relationship one).

Can we truly 'Love' more than one other person? There is no right answer there. many people say no way. Some will say Maybe and still others will say of course we can, we do it all the time.

What 'works' and what doesn't is entirely up to the individuals involved and anyone sitting back counting beans and trying to juge such things is wasting their time and effort.

hrm, I seemed to lose track of my point there somewhere, sorry for that.

I don't want to sidetrack this interesting discussion. But you are fooling yourself if you think anyone can completely eliminate jealousy from their lives. Some can repress it better than others, but it is one of the most basic emotions we have as humans and it enters into the equation for all of us. It's just a matter of how we deal with it.

[RendeR]

DOLA: just to add that I honestly believe if any 'couple' is so far down the unhappiness ladder to really require therapy? Perhaps they souldn't BE a couple anymore.

I do understand that communication is key and perhaps I'm being a bit closed minded on that. But if you can't communicate in your relationship on your own, what good is some therapist gonna be?

[RendeR]

I don't want to sidetrack this interesting discussion. But you are fooling yourself if you think anyone can completely eliminate jealousy from their lives. Some can repress it better than others, but it is one of the most basic emotions we have as humans and it enters into the equation for all of us. It's just a matter of how we deal with it.


I agree with you almost entirely. I myself have recently been reminded of the fact that we can't eliminate it altogether, but everyone can learn to recognize it in themselves and figure out why its there and work to curtail it.

its still a complete waste of energy. It does nothing but hurt everyone involved.

[RendeR]

my god my typing gets worse and worse by teh post....

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

I've been trying to find Arlie a girlfriend for years. Does that count?

:p


Edit to add a smiley, lest anyone think I'm remotely serious.

[stevew]

I remember this one time i cheated on the Steelers by rooting for the Bengals. Then Shorty put me in his sig. :(

[sabotai]

I don't cheat. I just fuck prostitutes.

[stevew]

I've been trying to find Arlie a girlfriend for years. Does that count?

If your trying to find him a warm vagina in Phoenix, Mike D'Antoni will probably have some free time after the first round of the playoffs.

[CU Tiger]

Couples therapy isn't my speciality, and never was, but "open relationships" almost never work in the long term in the experience of myself and almost every colleague who I've ever discussed the topic with at various seminars.

Is it possible to get a fair analysis here?
I mean if it is working and they are completely happy they wouldnt seek a therapist input about it. I mean you only see the probleem cases and say it rarely works.

I would imagine you have a pretty off guess at the number of couples who live this lifestyle, I mean its not something one would announce at parties, so what if 1 in 10 marriages is open and 1 in 5 of those have problems and 9 out of those 10 seek help from you or colleagues and 99 out of 100 of those end poorly. In a 10,000 couple sample size 1000 would be open 200 have problems 180 seeek help and 178 fail. By your analysis its a horrible plan when in actualty There are 800 perfectly happy couples out there you dont know about.


All that ssaid I am not in nor havee I ever been in an open relationship and cant imagine it, i jusst wouldnt work for me. I have very strong jealous tendencies and want to be thee center of everything.

To the original poll I have but not in a marriage and never would in a marriage.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

If your trying to find him a warm vagina in Phoenix, Mike D'Antoni will probably have some free time after the first round of the playoffs.

Ouch.

[RendeR]

Is it possible to get a fair analysis here?
I mean if it is working and they are completely happy they wouldnt seek a therapist input about it. I mean you only see the probleem cases and say it rarely works.

I would imagine you have a pretty off guess at the number of couples who live this lifestyle, I mean its not something one would announce at parties, so what if 1 in 10 marriages is open and 1 in 5 of those have problems and 9 out of those 10 seek help from you or colleagues and 99 out of 100 of those end poorly. In a 10,000 couple sample size 1000 would be open 200 have problems 180 seeek help and 178 fail. By your analysis its a horrible plan when in actualty There are 800 perfectly happy couples out there you dont know about.


All that ssaid I am not in nor havee I ever been in an open relationship and cant imagine it, i jusst wouldnt work for me. I have very strong jealous tendencies and want to be thee center of everything.

To the original poll I have but not in a marriage and never would in a marriage.



*applauds* nicely said.

[Eaglesfan27]

As a student of human nature, I think that most people are like CU Tiger (maybe not strong jealous tendencies but some level of jealousy) and could not tolerate being in an open relationship. I would be shocked if 1 in 10 marriages were open and only 1 of 5 of those had problems. I stand by my statement that most humans are inherently too jealous too tolerate being in an open relationship. Shrug.

Edit: Although, I do agree that there is selection bias in the clinical population that I've studied. However, my education goes beyond just patients seen.

[Fidatelo]

But if you can't communicate in your relationship on your own, what good is some therapist gonna be?

You've basically just said that Eaglesfan27's career is worthless. Well put. :rolleyes:

[Galaxy]

JimmyWint is in the house

The memories:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=50589&highlight=Ashley+Madison

[RendeR]

You've basically just said that Eaglesfan27's career is worthless. Well put. :rolleyes:


Thats not what I said or implied at all, but you're twisting of the context shows creativity, keep trying.

[Galaxy]

I've been tempted once or twice, but I've never cheated. I just couldn't face my wife after doing that even if I knew I would never be caught.

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=51729&highlight=work

:D

[Galaxy]

What the hell is "Big Love"? Is that a tv show with Pumpy dating big women?

[Fidatelo]

Thats not what I said or implied at all, but you're twisting of the context shows creativity, keep trying.

While I enjoy being creative, I don't really think I did much twisting. Read what you wrote, if I were EF27 (or a therapist in general) I'd have been offended.

[korme]

I remember this one time i cheated on the Steelers by rooting for the Bengals. Then Shorty put me in his sig. :(

It felt good, didn't it. Almost too good.

[CamEdwards]

While I enjoy being creative, I don't really think I did much twisting. Read what you wrote, if I were EF27 (or a therapist in general) I'd have been offended.

I think you're easily offended. As someone who's attended couples therapy early on in my marriage, if my wife and I weren't able to communicate effectively on some level, I really DON'T think therapy would have worked. There has to be a base to build on that some people don't have.

Therapists can certainly facilitate BETTER communication, or help you recognize when you start to go off track, but I don't know that a therapist can build good communication skills where none exist.

[CamEdwards]

dola- I'm defending RendeR. What IS this world coming to?

[Racer]

Is it possible to get a fair analysis here?
I mean if it is working and they are completely happy they wouldnt seek a therapist input about it. I mean you only see the probleem cases and say it rarely works.

I would imagine you have a pretty off guess at the number of couples who live this lifestyle, I mean its not something one would announce at parties, so what if 1 in 10 marriages is open and 1 in 5 of those have problems and 9 out of those 10 seek help from you or colleagues and 99 out of 100 of those end poorly. In a 10,000 couple sample size 1000 would be open 200 have problems 180 seeek help and 178 fail. By your analysis its a horrible plan when in actualty There are 800 perfectly happy couples out there you dont know about.


All that ssaid I am not in nor havee I ever been in an open relationship and cant imagine it, i jusst wouldnt work for me. I have very strong jealous tendencies and want to be thee center of everything.

To the original poll I have but not in a marriage and never would in a marriage.

Fifty percent of marriages end in divorce, correct? Sorry to nitpick, but I would imagine at least half of "open" marriages end in divorce and maybe more.

[Drake]

Hmm. I was in an open marriage for awhile.

Only problem was that no one told me about it until it wasn't open anymore.

(One of the funny things about infidelity: the first time it happens to you is the last time you ever see any humor in it. Except for the Silverman/Damon/Kimmel/Affleck thing -- that's still funny.)

[Eaglesfan27]

FWiW, I wasn't offended.

[Drake]

Do you wear reading glasses when you're doing therapy, EF? I think all psychiatrists should have to wear reading glasses.

[Eaglesfan27]

Do you wear reading glasses when you're doing therapy, EF? I think all psychiatrists should have to wear reading glasses.


I need reading glasses all of the time. When I played sports, I wore sports goggles. Without them, I can't see.

[Ksyrup]

Nope. Not really interested in it, at all, to the point that I've never even been in a situation where I've been tempted or given anyone the impression I was remotely interested.

Basically, I've got my hands full understanding the woman with me now, and I have absolutely no interest in trying to figure out another one.

[BishopMVP]

I need reading glasses all of the time. When I played sports, I wore sports goggles. Without them, I can't see.Get contacts. You can get them with night-vision and a zoom lens and be a borderline superhero now.

[Zelig]

I have just enough energy to keep afloat in this cess pool, much less cheat on the side.

[lighthousekeeper]

I need reading glasses all of the time. When I played sports, I wore sports goggles. Without them, I can't see.

I'm glad I can finally put a face with the name.

http://www.sigmamusic.com/01b.jpg

[Antmeister]

Oh, so this is why most people don't have wives on the message board. :D

[Izulde]

This sounds like someone whose idea of relationships is primarily informed by Meg Ryan movies.

Not really. (In fact, I don't recall ever watching a Meg Ryan movie, though I know who she is).

I just take the viewpoint that sex is a fun activity and doesn't necessarily have to be a closed-circuit affair.

Romantic love, on the other hand, -should- be closed. If I was in a relationship or a marriage and my partner fell in love with somebody else, I would end the relationship or the marriage. I refuse to be second in a person's heart in a relationship.

[path12]

In my early twenties I did. Karma came sweeping in about 12 years later with my second wife leaving me for another guy. I believe in karma, and would never cheat again.

[MikeVic]

Get contacts. You can get them with night-vision and a zoom lens and be a borderline superhero now.

I am being serious. Can you get night-vision contacts?

[MikeVic]

It felt good, didn't it. Almost too good.

Quiet Bengal. Don't you have the Bayside Tigers to root for?

[cuervo72]

I just take the viewpoint that sex is a fun activity and doesn't necessarily have to be a closed-circuit affair.

That's why we have webcams now.

[Radii]

Do you wear reading glasses when you're doing therapy, EF? I think all psychiatrists should have to wear reading glasses.

I picture EF27 sitting in his office w/ his patients in a McNabb jersey myself.

[Edward64]

The answer is "no, never" and I have had plenty of opportunities in my travels. This is not to say I don't look at attractive women but always have controlled my impulses.

Funny story:

I just came back from a 2 week trip to SE Asia. In Manila there is an overbundance of attractive, young women who would go for a US guy (ex. with the hope for a longer relationship).

On my last night in town, I purposely turned down a partying trip with co-workers so I could buy some pearls (relatively cheap in Manila) for the wife. That evening, I was doing some work on my laptop by the pool (enjoying the weather). It was closed, no one else around but they did not ask me to leave.

I pack up to go back to the room and get a vm beep (in Manila, my AT&T connection don't always work and it is not unusual to miss the call). It was from my wife so I called her back immediately.

She is upset because she called 10 minutes ago and a female answered.

She: Hello, is Edward there?
Her: (with an accent) Hold on.
She: Hangs up.

I tell my wife that I have no idea how this happened, had no alibi because I was working by the pool without any witnesses and I started laughing at the situation.

Here I was being the good boy, staying away from temptations, and a totally random incident made my wife think I was cheating on her. What irony.


* * * *

With that all said, I do not believe it is in Man's nature to be monogamous. I think monogamy is an societal restriction place on Man. Nevertheless, at this stage of our civilization, I do believe monogamy is a good thing (ex. Just because it is in Man's nature to sleep around does not mean Man should act on it).

[korme]

I'm glad I can finally put a face with the name.

http://www.sigmamusic.com/01b.jpg

YOUR GOD DAMN RIGHT BASEBALL'S FINEST

[korme]

Not really. (In fact, I don't recall ever watching a Meg Ryan movie, though I know who she is).

I just take the viewpoint that sex is a fun activity and doesn't necessarily have to be a closed-circuit affair.

Romantic love, on the other hand, -should- be closed. If I was in a relationship or a marriage and my partner fell in love with somebody else, I would end the relationship or the marriage. I refuse to be second in a person's heart in a relationship.

So if your girl was in love with you and would drop everything she was doing to make you happy, you'd be ok with that if some guy was balls-deep in her every Sunday morning?

[Rizon]

Is it possible to fudge a bank statement?

[Neon_Chaos]

I've never been put into a situation where I was tempted to cheat, so no, I haven't cheated.

Not sure what'll happen if I'm put in that predicament, though.

[Fidatelo]

(One of the funny things about infidelity: the first time it happens to you is the last time you ever see any humor in it. Except for the Silverman/Damon/Kimmel/Affleck thing -- that's still funny.)

*nods*

[lighthousekeeper]

The answer is "no, never" and I have had plenty of opportunities in my travels. This is not to say I don't look at attractive women but always have controlled my impulses.

Funny story:

I just came back from a 2 week trip to SE Asia. In Manila there is an overbundance of attractive, young women who would go for a US guy (ex. with the hope for a longer relationship).

On my last night in town, I purposely turned down a partying trip with co-workers so I could buy some pearls (relatively cheap in Manila) for the wife. That evening, I was doing some work on my laptop by the pool (enjoying the weather). It was closed, no one else around but they did not ask me to leave.

I pack up to go back to the room and get a vm beep (in Manila, my AT&T connection don't always work and it is not unusual to miss the call). It was from my wife so I called her back immediately.

She is upset because she called 10 minutes ago and a female answered.

She: Hello, is Edward there?
Her: (with an accent) Hold on.
She: Hangs up.

I tell my wife that I have no idea how this happened, had no alibi because I was working by the pool without any witnesses and I started laughing at the situation.

Here I was being the good boy, staying away from temptations, and a totally random incident made my wife think I was cheating on her. What irony.

sounds like you're lying...

[Edward64]

sounds like you're lying...

I swear. True story.

[Edward64]

I've never been put into a situation where I was tempted to cheat, so no, I haven't cheated.

Not sure what'll happen if I'm put in that predicament, though.

Just noticed. You are from Manila and was never tempted?

There is an abundance of young filipinas everywhere from what I saw (albeit the touristy areas).

[cuervo72]

With that all said, I do not believe it is in Man's nature to be monogamous. I think monogamy is an societal restriction place on Man. Nevertheless, at this stage of our civilization, I do believe monogamy is a good thing (ex. Just because it is in Man's nature to sleep around does not mean Man should act on it).

I either read an article or saw a show that addressed this, and pointed out that monogamy benefits men specifically. Without it, the men at the top of the heap (those in positions of leadership, wealth, power etc.) would be the ones with scores of women. Everyone else would have women that were less desirable, and others would be left w/o any at all. Monogamy spreads them out basically.

[Neon_Chaos]

Just noticed. You are from Manila and was never tempted?

There is an abundance of young filipinas everywhere from what I saw (albeit the touristy areas).

Apparently, I am not cocky and funny.

(",)

Where did you stay in Manila?

[Edward64]

Apparently, I am not cocky and funny.

(",)

Where did you stay in Manila?

Shangri-La Edsa. Very nice place, cute outfits.

[Neon_Chaos]

Shangri-La Edsa. Very nice place, cute outfits.

Ah, I see. Good place. You were quite near to the Shangri La mall and the Mega-Mall.

Were you able to sample the nightlife over in the Ayala part of Makati City? Excellent night clubs and posh establishments over there.

[Edward64]

Ah, I see. Good place. You were quite near to the Shangri La mall and the Mega-Mall.

Were you able to sample the nightlife over in the Ayala part of Makati City? Excellent night clubs and posh establishments over there.
No, it was all work until the last day and went shopping for the family (see the "irony" post above).

Lots of attractive women.

Did have another incident. The morning I was leaving, I had a breakfast buffet at the hotel. I sat outside wanting to enjoy the weather.

There were 4 tables outside, they were empty except for another party of 4 American women, probably college age.

They were joined shortly by a party of 3 American guys who sat in a table next to them. They knew each other and I assumed they were college kids on a trip.

There was a guy that was pretty obnoxious, saying f**k this, f**king that and a girl at the other table responded with her f**king vocabulary. I think they must have thought I did not speak English. To their credit, they did not use the f**k words when the wait staff serviced their drinks/coffee.

So after a minute or two of this, and because I was done with my breakfast, I stood up, went to that table and told them to "grow up, this is why they call us ugly Americans". They were pretty surprised and I left.

The guy followed me out and apologized.

I may have overreacted but man, this was the first time I saw American's act so obnoxious in a non-bar/drink setting and I could not stand how they represented Americans.

[Julio Riddols]

The answer is "yes, constantly" and I have made good on plenty of opportunities in my travels. This is to say I throw myself at every attractive woman always on impulse.

Funny story:

I just came back from a 2 week trip to SE Asia. In Manila there is an overbundance of attractive, young women who would go for a US guy (ex. with the hope for a longer relationship).

On my last night in town, I purposely went on a partying trip with co-workers so I could buy some girls (relatively cheap in Manila) to piss off the wife. That evening, I was doing some blow on my laptop by the pool (enjoying the girls). It was closed, no one else around, and they did not ask me to leave.

I pick 4 to go back up to the room and get a beep beep from all of them ( but in Manila, my Viagra connection always come through and it is unusual to miss the call. If I knew it was my wife instead, I wouldn't have called her back immediately. )

Anyway, She was upset because she called 10 minutes ago and a female answered.

She: Hello, is Edward there?
Her: (with an accent) Hold on.
She: Hangs up.

I tell my wife that I have a good idea how this happened, needed no alibi because I was sitting by the pool without any pants on and laughing at the situation.

Here I was living the good life, in the throes of temptation, having a totally random bunch of sex to make my wife think I was cheating on her. Because of her bad ironing.




I know the truth. I have the decoder pen.

[path12]

(One of the funny things about infidelity: the first time it happens to you is the last time you ever see any humor in it. Except for the Silverman/Damon/Kimmel/Affleck thing -- that's still funny.)

Abso-fuckin-lutely.

[Neon_Chaos]

No, it was all work until the last day and went shopping for the family (see the "irony" post above).

Lots of attractive women.

Did have another incident. The morning I was leaving, I had a breakfast buffet at the hotel. I sat outside wanting to enjoy the weather.

There were 4 tables outside, they were empty except for another party of 4 American women, probably college age.

They were joined shortly by a party of 3 American guys who sat in a table next to them. They knew each other and I assumed they were college kids on a trip.

There was a guy that was pretty obnoxious, saying f**k this, f**king that and a girl at the other table responded with her f**king vocabulary. I think they must have thought I did not speak English. To their credit, they did not use the f**k words when the wait staff serviced their drinks/coffee.

So after a minute or two of this, and because I was done with my breakfast, I stood up, went to that table and told them to "grow up, this is why they call us ugly Americans". They were pretty surprised and I left.

The guy followed me out and apologized.

I may have overreacted but man, this was the first time I saw American's act so obnoxious in a non-bar/drink setting and I could not stand how they represented Americans.

:)

[Noop]

The answer is "no, never" and I have had plenty of opportunities in my travels. This is not to say I don't look at attractive women but always have controlled my impulses.

Funny story:

I just came back from a 2 week trip to SE Asia. In Manila there is an overbundance of attractive, young women who would go for a US guy (ex. with the hope for a longer relationship).

On my last night in town, I purposely turned down a partying trip with co-workers so I could buy some pearls (relatively cheap in Manila) for the wife. That evening, I was doing some work on my laptop by the pool (enjoying the weather). It was closed, no one else around but they did not ask me to leave.

I pack up to go back to the room and get a vm beep (in Manila, my AT&T connection don't always work and it is not unusual to miss the call). It was from my wife so I called her back immediately.

She is upset because she called 10 minutes ago and a female answered.

She: Hello, is Edward there?
Her: (with an accent) Hold on.
She: Hangs up.

I tell my wife that I have no idea how this happened, had no alibi because I was working by the pool without any witnesses and I started laughing at the situation.

Here I was being the good boy, staying away from temptations, and a totally random incident made my wife think I was cheating on her. What irony.


* * * *

With that all said, I do not believe it is in Man's nature to be monogamous. I think monogamy is an societal restriction place on Man. Nevertheless, at this stage of our civilization, I do believe monogamy is a good thing (ex. Just because it is in Man's nature to sleep around does not mean Man should act on it).

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7769/dttitledr2.jpg

[RendeR]

dola- I'm defending RendeR. What IS this world coming to?
Seriously, this is scary ;)

Hmm. I was in an open marriage for awhile.

Only problem was that no one told me about it until it wasn't open anymore.

(One of the funny things about infidelity: the first time it happens to you is the last time you ever see any humor in it. Except for the Silverman/Damon/Kimmel/Affleck thing -- that's still funny.)
See its this type of ignorant comment that stifles real discussion of such things. You obviously were not in an open marriage from your point of view at the least and making it a joke that someone betrayed your trust just keeps the stereotypes going.

FWiW, I wasn't offended.
Thats good, I wasn't trying to offend, just make a point about communication, as Cam so aptly clarified.

Not really. (In fact, I don't recall ever watching a Meg Ryan movie, though I know who she is).

I just take the viewpoint that sex is a fun activity and doesn't necessarily have to be a closed-circuit affair.

Romantic love, on the other hand, -should- be closed. If I was in a relationship or a marriage and my partner fell in love with somebody else, I would end the relationship or the marriage. I refuse to be second in a person's heart in a relationship.
Interesting, see my opinion is that you have to have a real "relationship" If you don't love someone then what do you have? I'm actually more concerned with your last line though. In a relationship based on love, no one is ever 'second' or even 'first'. If you love someone, you love them, there is no more or less, there is no better or worse, its just love.

There is no limit to how much love anyone can have or give or receive. The fallacy many many people cling to is that if their partner loves someone else they must not love THEM enough or as much. Its a self confidence issue, personal insecurity within the relationship.

Sorry, I'm babbling on again.

[Danny]

I get the feeling RendeR is married to multiple women, or at least has the kind of relationship with multiple women. Render, you seem to be trying awfully hard to justify the situation of being with or loving multiple partners by stating it must be personal insecurity or a self confidence issues if someone wants or expects a partner to be monogamous.

[Fidatelo]

I get the feeling RendeR is married to multiple women

His profile says he's from Buffalo, not Utah.

[RendeR]

His profile says he's from Buffalo, not Utah.

Ok that made me laugh.

And Danny: My vision of a perfect world would include acceptance of any and all styles of loving relationships, without any one group or groups claiming their ay is the only way. Unfortunately, we live in the real world and anything that is not 'normal' (IE monogamous) is shunned.

[RendeR]

I get the feeling RendeR is married to multiple women, or at least has the kind of relationship with multiple women. Render, you seem to be trying awfully hard to justify the situation of being with or loving multiple partners by stating it must be personal insecurity or a self confidence issues if someone wants or expects a partner to be monogamous.


Oh my no no no. Thats not my point at all.

Every person is different, what works for one person might be a poisonous lifestyle to the next, there are those who thrive in monogamy, and thats perfectly acceptable. There are those that monogamy simply becomes a prison.

I do feel that if people really look at their jealousy/insecurity/etc and really try to understand where its coming from that they might discover its more of a fignment of their own creation than a real issue.

For some it is a real thing, so much so that they can't move beyond it and that is not a bad thing its simply who they are.

I apologize copletely if anyone felt I was judging them, dear god no, everyone is their own person, I was just making conversation.=)

[Izulde]

So if your girl was in love with you and would drop everything she was doing to make you happy, you'd be ok with that if some guy was balls-deep in her every Sunday morning?

Well, once a week might be a bit much, but pretty much. Like I said, sex and love are two entirely different issues for me, with not nearly as much overlap as people like to assign to them.

[Danny]

I understand your point better now. As long as both parties have a mutual agreement to what they expect out of the relationship it's their choice. Now, if there is the expectation (as in most marriages) that a relationship will be monogamous, then people should honor their commitment.

[ThunderingHERD]

RendeR is a polyamorous Jedi.

[RendeR]

RendeR is a polyamorous Jedi.


Jedi aren't supposed to BE amorous young padiwan.....

[Izulde]

Interesting, see my opinion is that you have to have a real "relationship" If you don't love someone then what do you have? I'm actually more concerned with your last line though. In a relationship based on love, no one is ever 'second' or even 'first'. If you love someone, you love them, there is no more or less, there is no better or worse, its just love.

See, I disagree with that. To me, there's different types, degrees and depths of love that will naturally lend itself to a heirarchy.

The reason why open relationships don't work the vast majority of the time (in my opinion, of course) is because emotions get involved and people get concerned about their place in the emotional heirarchy of the relationship.


There is no limit to how much love anyone can have or give or receive. The fallacy many many people cling to is that if their partner loves someone else they must not love THEM enough or as much. Its a self confidence issue, personal insecurity within the relationship.

Sorry, I'm babbling on again.

No, I understand what you're trying to say here... but I think this ultimately comes down to the different types of love I referenced earlier. If we're talking romantic love, then in that case, no, I'm not going to accept anyone else but me in.

Close friendship or spiritual kinship (for lack of a better term... where it's a love that's closer than close friends, but not romantic and not related by blood, but as close as you can get without blood or romance ties) love is, on the other hand, something completely different. Those types of love, sure there can be more than one person.

[RendeR]

I understand your point better now. As long as both parties have a mutual agreement to what they expect out of the relationship it's their choice. Now, if there is the expectation (as in most marriages) that a relationship will be monogamous, then people should honor their commitment.


Indeed. At the very least people in a monogamous relationship that are feeling stifled or limited must really communicate well with their partners and figure out what if anything can be done so that everyone is happy.

Edit to add: This holds true for those in multiple relationships, probably more so. Dealing with one loving relationship is hard, handling and maintaining more than one is just that much harder. I didn't want my sentence above to appear that I was focusing only on the monogamy side of it.

The single largest issue in multiple relationships, for myself, is honesty. Everyone involved (directly at least) must know and understand everyone elses place and expectations. Communication is key. Talk about how you feel, then talk about it some more, then when yer done talking about it, talk about it again. When you think you might puke from talking about it more, then you might be close to having talked about it enough =)

[RendeR]

*waves atta Telle* hi Honey =)

[Telle]

Depends on the type of cheating you're talking about.

The act of sleeping with somebody else, not that big a deal.

It's emotional cheating that I won't tolerate.

See, there's a problem with that. You can control your actions, but you can't control your emotions. So what happens when your wife becomes friends with some guy.. they develop a close friendship, but nothing out of the ordinary.. and then one day she wakes up and realizes "Holy shit, I'm in love with him!" You going to just get up and walk out of the house and start the divorce process that day?

[Galaxy]

So if your girl was in love with you and would drop everything she was doing to make you happy, you'd be ok with that if some guy was balls-deep in her every Sunday morning?

Yeah, I really don't get what he's saying.

Also, this thread is worthless without pics.

[RendeR]

Yeah, I really don't get what he's saying.

Also, this thread is worthless with pics.


With?

[Galaxy]

With?

Opps. Fixed it.

[EagleFan]

Wow,we really have some very stand up people here, or are filled with people who wouln't go too far on that Tell the Truth (or whatever it's called) "game show". :)

Or we have people who's significant other's are on or read the forum so there is no chance they tell the truth. ;)


Personally, never have... but was very tempted and came close but that was several years ago and my wife and I were on the brink of breaking up prior to that happening. Especially now with having two kids (didn't have kids back then) I am too lazy to even think about it as it adds way too many problems to life that I wouldn't want to deal with.

[RendeR]

Ok just for Galaxy:
Telle:
http://b3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/01095/30/18/1095158103_m.jpg

Liz
http://a130.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/98/l_876ca0c64fca67f3cfe1b2109a118059.jpg

[Radii]

ARRR MATEY

[RendeR]

ARRR MATEY

Aye! :D:D:D:D

[CamEdwards]

Any pix of Telle in a robe and wizard hat?

just askin.

[sabotai]

JUMANJI!

[RendeR]

Any pix of Telle in a robe and wizard hat?

just askin.


No but I'll see if I can get her into costume for the ren fest this summer!

[RendeR]

JUMANJI!


I don't get it.

[Telle]

No but I'll see if I can get her into costume for the ren fest this summer!

Gah.. when the hell am I going to have time to sew?!? And I still need to take the dang sewing machine to get tuned.. seeing as that hasn't been done for probably about 20 years. But now I'm probably going to spend all night searching the web for new garb ideas :)

[Schmidty]

I'm not wearing pants.

[Izulde]

See, there's a problem with that. You can control your actions, but you can't control your emotions. So what happens when your wife becomes friends with some guy.. they develop a close friendship, but nothing out of the ordinary.. and then one day she wakes up and realizes "Holy shit, I'm in love with him!" You going to just get up and walk out of the house and start the divorce process that day?

Within the week, yes.

[Anthony]

someone who works in my building apparently is very interested. i'm teetering on the brink. willpower is waning. i'm a heterosexual male, i can't help it - science and evolution made me this way.

can't...hold....much...longer....

she smiles at me and i smile back, she's really putting herself out there but i just don't say or do anything. at the very least i would like to introduce myself and just make it known i'm married and not gay and if things were different i'm sure we'd do a lot more together than just smile or acknowledge each other in the elevator with a twinkle in the eye. i feel like a cockless fag when i see her cuz i don't do anything more than a half-smile or a nod of the head while she smiles at me.

i have a great marriage, an awesome wife and a heavy/loud conscience. those are the only things standing in the way.


NOTE: the above is just a made up story. i'm just looking for attention. this is how i would feel if this were to hypothetically happen to me.

[Anthony]

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004Z3MA.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

"why must i be like that?
why must i chase the cat?
ain't nuthin but the dog in me."

[Schmidty]

Drunk are we?

[Galaxy]

I don't get it.

It's on the shelf in the one picture.

[oliegirl]

Why has no one else asked why the guy behind the pirate chick is holding what looks to be one of those big counter standing mixmaster blenders???

Scenes with Tom Hanks chasing Tawny Kitaen with the egg beater thingy are now running through my head!!!

[BrianD]

Scenes with Tom Hanks chasing Tawny Kitaen with the egg beater thingy are now running through my head!!!

???

Apparently I need to go back and watch Bachelor Party again.

[MacroGuru]

Well, I will admit, I messed up...big time right before we got married..in fact, it was my mess up that set the ultimatum up.

A lot of alcohol combined with painkillers from the knee surgery I just had led to me not thinking properly.

The wife (girlfriend at the time) said...thats it, you need to get your priorities in order..and left me...

Worst 2 weeks ever. I realized she was the one, and I really couldn't live without her..proposed and we have been married going on our 12th year....and no more screwups.

[RendeR]

It's on the shelf in the one picture.

Doh, yer right, see, I spend all my time looking at Liz, the rest is so much background static =)

Why has no one else asked why the guy behind the pirate chick is holding what looks to be one of those big counter standing mixmaster blenders???

Scenes with Tom Hanks chasing Tawny Kitaen with the egg beater thingy are now running through my head!!!

Actually Chubbs (the guy with the mixer) Is in culinary school and if I recall the story correctly he was attempting to show off his cooking/baking skills the whole time. This is an old pic. I just met Liz in December 07.

[RendeR]

Within the week, yes.


OK, but if she's still in love with you, you'd rather give that up? This is where I tend to lose people, I don't understand the willingness to give up on love. Maybe I was just unloved as a child and this is how my psyche compensates or something =)

[st.cronin]

Love doesn't operate independent of behavior. Part of being in a loving relationship is doing things, or not doing certain things, in order to demonstrate one's love and commitment. Giving foot rubs and not going to strip clubs are the same type of action.

[Neon_Chaos]

Love is not an emotion, it's an ability.

Or so says Dan, who stole it from some kid.

[CU Tiger]

See I feel that each couple should be able to define THEIR relationship. We have friends who have a 3rd wheel (for lack of a better term) and we will often go out as a goup. They are very open about their relationship.

My acceptance though starts breaking down in a legal seense. I mean, should his Employee and Spouse policy cover both spouses?
What about a separation. WHo gets what %.
And the fact that they have young children who they are open with bothers me a bit, I mean its ok for them to make their own decisions but I think they are setting their kids up for uncomfortable situations.

[Drake]

Every person is different, what works for one person might be a poisonous lifestyle to the next, there are those who thrive in monogamy, and thats perfectly acceptable. There are those that monogamy simply becomes a prison.

Actually, this is very similar to my point -- which is that too often, people in open relationships tend to decide it unilaterally after they've made commitments to someone who may value monogamy very highly.

I don't actually have a problem with that.

What I *do* have a problem with is when the person who wants an open relationship isn't mature enough to communicate that in advance and give their partner the option to get out of the relationship before betrayal occurs.

From what you're saying, I don't think you and I disagree on that point. :)

Edit to clarify: My wife didn't actually want an open relationship. She wanted to keep me all to herself (she's insanely jealous). She just wanted to be able to sleep with other people, too. That isn't technically an open relationship. :)
I just happened to be married to someone who wasn't mature enough to communicate before she started cheating.

[Cringer]

Love doesn't operate independent of behavior. Part of being in a loving relationship is doing things, or not doing certain things, in order to demonstrate one's love and commitment. Giving foot rubs and not going to strip clubs are the same type of action.

So my wife doesn't really love me because she won't stay home from the strip clubs and give me foot rubs? :(

[RendeR]

So my wife doesn't really love me because she won't stay home from the strip clubs and give me foot rubs? :(


That deoends entirely on wether she's going to the clubs to work or to play =)

[Galaxy]

Do you believe consenting polygamy should be legalized? Of course, one girl is enough.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Also: I picked dingleberries off your girlfriend last night.

Wha? :eek:

[Izulde]

OK, but if she's still in love with you, you'd rather give that up? This is where I tend to lose people, I don't understand the willingness to give up on love. Maybe I was just unloved as a child and this is how my psyche compensates or something =)

I look at it like this: In matters of romantic love, for me personally, there can be only one.

In the situation like you describe, yes, I'm going to give that up, because I'm not going to have turn it into something where she hates me because she's in love with the other person and wasn't able to pursue it.

So it's giving her the chance to explore it without guilt or anxiety.

If she decides in the end that she doesn't love the other person like she thought and I'm still available both emotionally and relationshipally, fine.

[RendeR]

I look at it like this: In matters of romantic love, for me personally, there can be only one.

In the situation like you describe, yes, I'm going to give that up, because I'm not going to have turn it into something where she hates me because she's in love with the other person and wasn't able to pursue it.

So it's giving her the chance to explore it without guilt or anxiety.

If she decides in the end that she doesn't love the other person like she thought and I'm still available both emotionally and relationshipally, fine.


Ok I see what yer saying. I think it becomes far less black and white than what you describe in reality, but in the end everyone has to live their way. Good clarification there =) Thanks!

[RendeR]

Do you believe consenting polygamy should be legalized? Of course, one girl is enough.


Honestly, I don't see where the government and the Law should have anything in any way to do with marriage or people's choice of lifestyle.

I personally feel that if a group of 5 men and 4 women want to marry one another all the way around, and live as a single recognized family unit with all the protections and benefits that go with that "family" status, then they should be allowed to.

[Eaglesfan27]

Honestly, I don't see where the government and the Law should have anything in any way to do with marriage or people's choice of lifestyle.

I personally feel that if a group of 5 men and 4 women want to marry one another all the way around, and live as a single recognized family unit with all the protections and benefits that go with that "family" status, then they should be allowed to.

What about the psychological impact of children in that family? Most of society is not understanding of such a family, and there are going to be questions from outside families, from other kids, etc. There are going to be many issues brought up that are going to be very hard for kids in such a "family" to deal with.

[RendeR]

What about the psychological impact of children in that family? Most of society is not understanding of such a family, and there are going to be questions from outside families, from other kids, etc. There are going to be many issues brought up that are going to be very hard for kids in such a "family" to deal with.


What is the psychological impact of children of divorce? Seperation?

I would think that a loving family with morethan one adult for role models would be far superior to one in which there are only 2, or less if you consider the current divorce rate in this country.

You're presuming that 2 is better than anything, and I can't help but wonder why? Who decided that the diad was the proper form of family to raise children?

There is a saying, "It takes 2 people to make a child, but it takes a village to raise them."

For a healthy, mentally and emotionally healthy child there has to be more than 2 people in their life guiding them along, why can only 2 of those people fill the role of 'parent'?

[Anthony]

jeezus horseshit, what the fuck do you people smoke up in Buffalo??

[gkb]

What is the psychological impact of children of divorce? Seperation?

I would think that a loving family with morethan one adult for role models would be far superior to one in which there are only 2, or less if you consider the current divorce rate in this country.

You're presuming that 2 is better than anything, and I can't help but wonder why? Who decided that the diad was the proper form of family to raise children?

There is a saying, "It takes 2 people to make a child, but it takes a village to raise them."

For a healthy, mentally and emotionally healthy child there has to be more than 2 people in their life guiding them along, why can only 2 of those people fill the role of 'parent'?

So you're saying you're having sex with an entire village? ;)

[RendeR]

I guess what I really mean is, just because the majority says something is right and good and proper, doesn't make it true, it simply means they hapepen to agree with one another.

How children intereact with society is probably the single most important thing THEIR PARENTS must teach them.

[RendeR]

jeezus horseshit, what the fuck do you people smoke up in Buffalo??


Oh please, save us your ignorance for once HA. You really have no place in this conversation =)

[RendeR]

So you're saying you're having sex with an entire village? ;)


Oh hell no, even I can't maintain that many relationships...

[mrsimperless]

I would have voted, but I couldn't find "Yes, and now it hurts when I pee"

[mrsimperless]

What is the psychological impact of children of divorce? Seperation?

I would think that a loving family with morethan one adult for role models would be far superior to one in which there are only 2, or less if you consider the current divorce rate in this country.

You're presuming that 2 is better than anything, and I can't help but wonder why? Who decided that the diad was the proper form of family to raise children?

There is a saying, "It takes 2 people to make a child, but it takes a village to raise them."

For a healthy, mentally and emotionally healthy child there has to be more than 2 people in their life guiding them along, why can only 2 of those people fill the role of 'parent'?

Back in the olden days it used to take a village to raise a child. Now it takes 2, sometimes 1.

Vonnegut had some good observations on it in "Man Without a Country"

[Anthony]

Oh please, save us your ignorance for once HA. You really have no place in this conversation =)

you're a fucking kook. you have no place in society. what, do you also wear your boots on your head just to be different? i don't care about your open marriage, but if you're going to start talking verbal shit from your mouth about having 4 or 5 parents is just as good, if not better, for a kid then you need to remove yourself from this thread and stop wasting people's time with your fucking bullshit. now you're just being silly.

i really can't stand people from upstate NY. you're all a bunch of glorified rednecks. i just hope your assinine views are limited to your household, and not indicative of a much larger sentiment.

[CU Tiger]

RedndeR while I see where you are coming from, I dont think you can measure the emotional damage done to a kid by being different. No matter how you justify it, the kid will realize he has a diiferent family unit than all his classmates, and that will hurt and challenge him. Regardless of whther its better or worse, will be immaterial in some ways, the very fact of being different will have an impact.

[Eaglesfan27]

What is the psychological impact of children of divorce? Seperation?

I would think that a loving family with morethan one adult for role models would be far superior to one in which there are only 2, or less if you consider the current divorce rate in this country.

You're presuming that 2 is better than anything, and I can't help but wonder why? Who decided that the diad was the proper form of family to raise children?

There is a saying, "It takes 2 people to make a child, but it takes a village to raise them."

For a healthy, mentally and emotionally healthy child there has to be more than 2 people in their life guiding them along, why can only 2 of those people fill the role of 'parent'?

Children need consistency and defined roles, or at least they do best when they have those situations. If the adults in a house are involved romantically in a tangled web, it is potentially very confusing as they try to determine the roles that everyone has and potentially damaging particularly for developing children, much more so than a divorce where there is the potential for consistency after the transition period of the divorce.

Obviously, if chaos continues after a divorce or a separation, that is also damaging, but if stability is found after a divorce/separation (and the kids aren't used as pawns between the divorced parents), kids can usually be very resilient.

[Eaglesfan27]

Dola -

Most kids can do a good job of "splitting" or turning 2 parents against each other if they don't communicate very carefully and present a united front. Another issue with multiple "parental" figures, is that the more adults in a house, the easier kids are going to be able to create division in the household rules. I see this often in families where a parent (usually the mother) lives with her parents and the grandparents have their own ideas about how to raise the child which are different from each other and different from the mother and it just creates a greater problem.

[RendeR]

you're a fucking kook. you have no place in society....

...i really can't stand people from upstate NY. you're all a bunch of glorified rednecks. i just hope your assinine views are limited to your household, and not indicative of a much larger sentiment.

Ahh thank you, you prove yet again how utterly worthless you really are. You have no valid arguments therefore slander is all you can come up with. Thank you. You keep proving what a piece of shit you really are.

Oh, just to be clear, Buffalo is not upstate, idiot, its Western NY. NYC is not the center of the universe.

My views are that everyone should be allowed to live as they choose without having to put up with ignorant fucks like yourself and can only HOPE its more than just my household. If you don't agree, you oughta figure out why.

So refreshing to see you never change.

[RendeR]

Look folks, I'm not saying its a perfect way for everyone. I'm just saying that every single person in this country, or the world for that matter, SHOULD have the right to live and raise their family as THEY see fit. While society will always be a breeding ground for conformity that doesn't make it the only right way.

Children raised in a lvoing family, will turn out just fine, just as those raised in not so loving familes will have issues.

EVERY child, normal home life or not, has to deal with other children being cruel, its how children are until taught better.

[RendeR]

Dola -

Most kids can do a good job of "splitting" or turning 2 parents against each other if they don't communicate very carefully and present a united front. Another issue with multiple "parental" figures, is that the more adults in a house, the easier kids are going to be able to create division in the household rules. I see this often in families where a parent (usually the mother) lives with her parents and the grandparents have their own ideas about how to raise the child which are different from each other and different from the mother and it just creates a greater problem.

I am not arguing anything about what the child will do. This isn't about how the kid takes advantage of his or her situation. My position is simply that having more quality role models available should, turn out a more stable and well prepared child from the unit.

Will it? I dunno, I don't know anyone thats tried it. When it comes to children its not really the quantity that matters, but the quality. With greater quantity, the chances of getting some better quality should increase? yes?

From MY experience, there seems to be a higher quality in those who are accepting or open to alternative lifestyles, which I think comes directly from their ability to be open to new ideas and alternatives.

[Anthony]

i like how because you have some quasi-open marriage, now you're going to don a smoking jacket and stick a pipe in your mouth and start sharing your other crap views with no data suggesting an alternate way is just as beneficial.

"yes, i have an open marriage, and while we're on the subject - what's with these 2-parent households??? can't we think outside the box, people? where i come from i rather have 5 apples than 2 apples. more is always better."

in what world do you live where it's perfectly normal to have multiple parents? because if you come from such a household you are the perfect reason why such an arrangement doesn't work. so what else you got? i think you know you've stuck your foot in your mouth with this one which is why you're sidestepping my statements with your holier than thou "HA is being ignorant" crap. just admit you were just talking out of your ass and that's that.

why is it so hard for people on the internet to just acknowledge bullshit they write? why can't people just say "ok, ok, i made a pretty bold statement before, i know, i'm sorry i'll stick to what i know and try not to post such doodie." jeezus.

[Eaglesfan27]

Look folks, I'm not saying its a perfect way for everyone. I'm just saying that every single person in this country, or the world for that matter, SHOULD have the right to live and raise their family as THEY see fit. While society will always be a breeding ground for conformity that doesn't make it the only right way.

Children raised in a lvoing family, will turn out just fine, just as those raised in not so loving familes will have issues.

EVERY child, normal home life or not, has to deal with other children being cruel, its how children are until taught better.

Not that it happens in every family like this obviously, but I've seen kids in "alternative" families who have become suicidal because of their parents choice of lifestyles and that was by far the predominant factor in their depression and suicide attempts. CU Tiger is correct that being from a family that is different can potentially cause immeasurable damage to kids from the exterior and interior pressures. Parents need to think carefully about how their choices truly effect their children and not just make selfish decisions for themselves.

[Anthony]

Look folks, I'm not saying its a perfect way for everyone. I'm just saying that every single person in this country, or the world for that matter, SHOULD have the right to live and raise their family as THEY see fit.


i'm going to raise my kids to kick the shit out of kids who come from homes that have more than 2 parents.


and to shit on the lawns of people who have open marriages.


because, you know, i have the right to do so. adios, pantalones.

[st.cronin]

Weird threadjack.

[RendeR]

Children need consistency and defined roles, or at least they do best when they have those situations. If the adults in a house are involved romantically in a tangled web, it is potentially very confusing as they try to determine the roles that everyone has and potentially damaging particularly for developing children, much more so than a divorce where there is the potential for consistency after the transition period of the divorce.

Obviously, if chaos continues after a divorce or a separation, that is also damaging, but if stability is found after a divorce/separation (and the kids aren't used as pawns between the divorced parents), kids can usually be very resilient.


Sorry, I missed this one...

Everything you describe here is based on the assumption that the alternative lifestyle is "confused" "chaotic" with 'Undefined roles". Why is it so improbable that for example a m/f/f triad has very consistant routines and a very solidly defined role setup? Why is it confusing? Why must it be chaotic?

I understand your argument, but It comes from an antagonistic viewpoint. You're assuming far more than you know to make such validations. Nothing keeps the multi partner family from being a perfectly calm, supportive atmoshpere. Why must everyone assume otherwise, beyond the fact that they don't know it or understand it in any way?

[Galaxy]

Weird threadjack.

Not exactly what I was expecting.

[st.cronin]

To get back on topic, I am almost positive that my girlfriend has ordered stuff from Adam & Eve without my knowledge. Is that cheating? I dunno.

[RendeR]

Not that it happens in every family like this obviously, but I've seen kids in "alternative" families who have become suicidal because of their parents choice of lifestyles and that was by far the predominant factor in their depression and suicide attempts. CU Tiger is correct that being from a family that is different can potentially cause immeasurable damage to kids from the exterior and interior pressures. Parents need to think carefully about how their choices truly effect their children and not just make selfish decisions for themselves.


Again, you're taking an antagonistic viewpoint to come at this from, you , as a therapist, are bound to see the negatives, but you truly do not and can not know how many others may be perfectly fine.

Bringing children into such a situation is a huge issue, no doubt about it, and I personally think that if everyone involved is putting the children first, then they will turn out just fine. You're point of people doing things like this for selfish reasons is valid, but again, you're sounding accusatory, as if thats all there is. I disagree with that.

[RendeR]

i like how because you have some quasi-open marriage, now you're going to don a smoking jacket and stick a pipe in your mouth and start sharing your other crap views with no data suggesting an alternate way is just as beneficial.

"yes, i have an open marriage, and while we're on the subject - what's with these 2-parent households??? can't we think outside the box, people? where i come from i rather have 5 apples than 2 apples. more is always better."

in what world do you live where it's perfectly normal to have multiple parents? because if you come from such a household you are the perfect reason why such an arrangement doesn't work. so what else you got? i think you know you've stuck your foot in your mouth with this one which is why you're sidestepping my statements with your holier than thou "HA is being ignorant" crap. just admit you were just talking out of your ass and that's that.

why is it so hard for people on the internet to just acknowledge bullshit they write? why can't people just say "ok, ok, i made a pretty bold statement before, i know, i'm sorry i'll stick to what i know and try not to post such doodie." jeezus.


Why do I threaten you so badly HA? You never have a valid argument for me. You spout hatred and ignorance as if you eat it for breakfast just to top off every day.

I have nothing to "admit" to here. I've stated my thoughts and my opinions and if they firghten you, feel free to stay holed up in your little flat on the island or where ever it is you hide and post on the internet. We won;t miss you. Really.

I think the big difference here HA is that I am sticking with what I know. I grew up in a broken home, I've dealt with the emotional bullshit, the cruelty of my peers. I've also learned that I'm better than that, And you, for that matter, because I CAN accept other peoples way of life and not treat them as outcasts just because they live differently than I do.

You're a sad pathetic little man.

[RendeR]

As for the threadjacking commentery, I suppose it has taken quite a tangent. So pelase go back to the original, unoriginal topic of post-monogamous stress disorder therapy ;)

[Anthony]

Oh, just to be clear, Buffalo is not upstate, idiot, its Western NY. NYC is not the center of the universe.


this person, actually from upstate NY, agrees that your awful city is indeed part of upstate NY (http://katherinehas.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/obviously-massachusetts-schools-neglect-to-teach-geography-of-areas-outside-of-new-england-or-no-western-new-yorkers-are-not-yankees-fans/). not scientific or official, mind you, but it's straight from the horse's mouth (ie, someone who actually lives in the void called upstate ny). what you may consider to be upstate new york (adirondack region, niagra falls, etc) i consider "south canada".

[RendeR]

Ok, small lesson in New York State geography for you:

NYC. Long Island, area south of hudson, NY: The City, new York City, the shithole of the universe =)

Capitol Region west to the east side of Rochester and north to the Canadien border: Upstate NY

Area West of the 390 and the Finger Lakes: Western NY

And yes, we're sick to death of you ignorant fuckers labeling us as upstate ;)

[Anthony]

Why do I threaten you so badly HA? You never have a valid argument for me. You spout hatred and ignorance as if you eat it for breakfast just to top off every day.

I have nothing to "admit" to here. I've stated my thoughts and my opinions and if they firghten you, feel free to stay holed up in your little flat on the island or where ever it is you hide and post on the internet. We won;t miss you. Really.

I think the big difference here HA is that I am sticking with what I know. I grew up in a broken home, I've dealt with the emotional bullshit, the cruelty of my peers. I've also learned that I'm better than that, And you, for that matter, because I CAN accept other peoples way of life and not treat them as outcasts just because they live differently than I do.

You're a sad pathetic little man.

i come from a single-parent household, raised by my mother. single-parent households are just as accepted as a two-parent household. no one made fun of me and i wasn't the victim of any grief. so help me God if i had 3 fathers and 2 moms. you're just talking crap right now. i'm going to ask you to please stop. i really don't know what research you've done that shows that as long as a kid comes from a loving household - no matter how many parents are involved - the kid will come out just fine.

what you may find to be a conformist society is just a template/guideline for what works best. 2 parents (whether biological or otherwise) works. it's when you start going outside that frame is when you introduce problems. do you drive on the left side of the road because you feel it's too "conformist" to drive on the correct side of the road that everyone else does? you can be as open and accepting as you want towards people who drive on the left side of the road but it doesn't mean what they're doing is the best thing.

sometimes it's ok to say "clearly, the way you live your life is outside the boundaries of what a normal civilized society finds acceptable". its ok to say that. you can still be open and accepting, you don't necessarily have to abandon common sense.

[MrBug708]

No but I'll see if I can get her into costume for the ren fest this summer!

This quote explains everything I need to know about RendeR

[RendeR]

i come from a single-parent household, raised by my mother. single-parent households are just as accepted as a two-parent household. no one made fun of me and i wasn't the victim of any grief. so help me God if i had 3 fathers and 2 moms. you're just talking crap right now. i'm going to ask you to please stop. i really don't know what research you've done that shows that as long as a kid comes from a loving household - no matter how many parents are involved - the kid will come out just fine.

what you may find to be a conformist society is just a template/guideline for what works best. 2 parents (whether biological or otherwise) works. it's when you start going outside that frame is when you introduce problems. do you drive on the left side of the road because you feel it's too "conformist" to drive on the correct side of the road that everyone else does? you can be as open and accepting as you want towards people who drive on the left side of the road but it doesn't mean what they're doing is the best thing.

sometimes it's ok to say "clearly, the way you live your life is outside the boundaries of what a normal civilized society finds acceptable". its ok to say that. you can still be open and accepting, you don't necessarily have to abandon common sense.


And again, I have to say, I haven't said anything has been proven better in either way, I'm simply offering theoreticals, re-read my posts HA. I'm not condeming the nuclear household, I'm simply offering for discussion the possibility that other styles of household should work as well if not better. Since the proven facts are the Nuclear households fail 50% of the time.

I'm glad you didn't get tormented by other kids because you didn't have a dad around. I did, I was an outcast because of it. Do I want my kids to deal with that? of course not, but will they face stupidity from other children along those same lines sometime? probably. And when that happens its our jobs as their parents to help them learn and cope with such things. THAT above all is my point, that all things being equal (which we know they probably aren't) having more parental type persons in and around the home stands a better chance od the kids actually elarning and dealing with such things better.

My only beef with you is that you pop in here spouting definitatives that you can't prove. I'm not saying anything is BEST or correct for everyone. YOU are.

Again, just because society says something is good and right and proper does NOT make it so. And the fact that I believe that does not make me wrong, no matter how small minded you want to be about it.

[RendeR]

This quote explains everything I need to know about RendeR

You know, I have more than enough asshole to deal with in HA, why try to butt into his territory? Really Bug, this offends me.

[ThunderingHERD]

You know that scene that plays out on daytime talk shows all the time, where the skanky obese woman gets insulted by an audience member and then tries to convince everyone of how sexy she is? That's what this thread reminds me of.

[MrBug708]

You know, I have more than enough asshole to deal with in HA, why try to butt into his territory? Really Bug, this offends me.

Obviously I hit a nerve by why does this bother you and why did you take it negatively?

[RendeR]

Obviously I hit a nerve by why does this bother you and why did you take it negatively?

because it comes across as insulting people who attend rennasaince faires? Or those that actually dress for the occasion? I dunno, it just caught me wrong at the time. I apologize if it wasn't meant to.

[lighthousekeeper]

Everything you describe here is based on the assumption that the alternative lifestyle is "confused" "chaotic" with 'Undefined roles". Why is it so improbable that for example a m/f/f triad has very consistant routines and a very solidly defined role setup? Why is it confusing? Why must it be chaotic?

Well it might not be chaotic, but you somewhat answer your own question with this:

Dealing with one loving relationship is hard, handling and maintaining more than one is just that much harder.

The single largest issue in multiple relationships, for myself, is honesty. Everyone involved (directly at least) must know and understand everyone elses place and expectations. Communication is key. Talk about how you feel, then talk about it some more, then when yer done talking about it, talk about it again. When you think you might puke from talking about it more, then you might be close to having talked about it enough =)

This quote to me is the strongest argument against open relationships (at least when kids are involved). Time is a scarce resource. It appears to me that having multiple relationships exponentially increases the amount of time the 'adults' need to devote to themselves so they can hash out/figure out/emotionally maintain their soap-opera lives. I can only imagine that this just takes away from the focus and attention that the children would otherwise receive.


(But I also agree with Render's point that people can choose to live however they want. I don't begrudge his lifestyle choice.)

[sabotai]

Tangent...

Parents need to think carefully about how their choices truly effect their children and not just make selfish decisions for themselves.

This is actually one of the reasons I've decided to not have kids (aside from they annoy the fucking hell out of me). I'm not willing to give up my ability to live however I want to in order to raise a child. That way I can be, for lack of a better word I suppose, selfish.

That's not to say I think RendeR is doing anything wrong. I have no problem with it.

[RendeR]

It appears to me that having multiple relationships exponentially increases the amount of time the 'adults' need to devote to themselves so they can hash out/figure out/emotionally maintain their soap-opera lives. I can only imagine that this just takes away from the focus and attention that the children would otherwise receive.


(But I also agree with Render's point that people can choose to live however they want. I don't begrudge his lifestyle choice.)



I defeinitely see your point here, it actually shocks me how much soap opera bullshit actually goes on in life. It doe not happen in mine. If someone is playing drama-games they don't last in my life. I grew beyond all that angsty-crap a long time ago and I don't have time for it now. SO maybe that colors my opinion of this a lot, since I don't see that in my life, I don't consider it a factor in other peoples either, and I suppose I should knowing how our friends relationships spiral from time to time.

Good point to bring up LHK. Thank you.

Edited to add: The talking adn retalking etc etc still goes on, but we do that around and between dealing with the kids. We don't fight in front of them, When they're around they tend to be the focus of family activity. We keep our stuff for 1-1 time. just works best for us.

[MrBug708]

because it comes across as insulting people who attend rennasaince faires? Or those that actually dress for the occasion? I dunno, it just caught me wrong at the time. I apologize if it wasn't meant to.

I can understand you a bit more by knowing you partake in the Ren Faires. I did the Southern Faire for two years and met quite a few "kindred spirits". Some crazy carnies too but that's a whole other story.:)

[RendeR]

I can understand you a bit more by knowing you partake in the Ren Faires. I did the Southern Faire for two years and met quite a few "kindred spirits". Some crazy carnies too but that's a whole other story.:)


Ahh, see now that is my experience of havng people be negative to the idea exerting pressure on my reaction to your comment!

Excellent stuff! I wish I could quit my job in the late summer and work the sterling festival myself. We always have such a grea time up there. We spend the entire weekend camping and then attend the fest saturday and sunday.

Telle and I are actrually renewing our wedding vows this coming summer at the festival. Its our 5th anniversary this year so we thought i would be a nice special occasion kind of thing.

Again, sory for the instant reaction before. I'm not used to getting positive feedback for being a Ren-fest guy =)

[Oilers9911]

Again, just because society says something is good and right and proper does NOT make it so.

Actually, in almost all cases that is exactly what it means.

[Oilers9911]

This is actually one of the reasons I've decided to not have kids (aside from they annoy the fucking hell out of me). I'm not willing to give up my ability to live however I want to in order to raise a child. That way I can be, for lack of a better word I suppose, selfish.


Actually, although it may be selfish in a way, your way is a hell of a lot better than the parents that HAVE kids AND think they don't have to change how they live.

[BYU 14]

I find it interesting that most surveys/studies show 45-60% of Men have cheated in relationships at some time and 35-45% of Women have. But on FOFC just over 10% of the board that has responded has EVER cheated? Is this board population just made up of people with high moral values, are the cheaters not responding or are some of us fibbing?

[Neon_Chaos]

I think a majority of the board are happy that we even found our own significant other.

:)

[BYU 14]

I think a majority of the board are happy that we even found our own significant other.

:)

Good point, you may have answered the question :)

[MacroGuru]

Actually, I appreciate RendeR sharing his open and uncensored view on things...to me and the people watching tendencies I have (Hell a fun night out is heading to the mall after dinner and drinks and just watching people) it shows a bit more of the person on the other end.

I also applaud the fact he isn't scared to post and admit his beliefs

[Anthony]

Actually, in almost all cases that is exactly what it means.

LOL, exactly. human society (at least American society in particular since we're not discussing other cultures here) has had many many years to evolve and develop. it's taken centuries, literally, for us to get to this point where we can definitively say the various things an individual can do with their life and still be considered a normal part of society. and here we have Render kicking down the door and stating society has it all wrong and his ideas for alternative lifestyles work just as good, if not better, is just funny. again, i don't care about the open marriage thing, that's a choice among adults. but to say an open marriage works with children involved, knowing 98% of America is geared towards the normal 2 parent household (and i think we're at the point where a single family household has shed its social stigma) is setting them up for the same type of ridicule that render apparently went through.

you can allow someone the right to live the way they want, but nothing says you have to blindly accept that what their doing is completely normal and acceptable. we are fully clothed in our society. and try as you might, you just can't say "clothes are too conformist and who am i to say everyone should wear clothes" and applaud your neighbor who mows his lawn with exposed genitalia. clearly, there needs to be some boundaries in life, there needs to be a commonly agreed-upon path we all try to follow, so that when we see someone deviate from that path we can say "that person is wrong." no one is saying you have to be a worker ant, we're all allowed to be unique, but that uniqueness has does have its limitations. at least in America, it does.

i'll try to move on now, the least posted phrase in the internet is "you're actually right, and i'm wrong, i'm going to change my way of thinking". render will still think the way he does and nothing anyone writes will change it.

[Anthony]

Actually, I appreciate RendeR sharing his open and uncensored view on things...to me and the people watching tendencies I have (Hell a fun night out is heading to the mall after dinner and drinks and just watching people) it shows a bit more of the person on the other end.

I also applaud the fact he isn't scared to post and admit his beliefs

true dat. he's been rather consistent throughout. he may be wrong in his views, but he's consistent. :)

[RendeR]

Actually, in almost all cases that is exactly what it means.


Are you now the sultan of absolutes? If its not 100% then my point is valid. verifying that some cases, even a high eprcentage of them, are true, still does not make them all true.

Society says religion is a good thing, that does not make it true. Society says drinking is bad, this does not make it true (to excess perhaps)

Society in general is the most people finding the most in common and agreeing to live that way. Society is not always right, thats all I'm saying.

[RendeR]

true dat. he's been rather consistent throughout.

I appreciate the fact that even you can admit this much.


he may be wrong in his views, but he's consistent. :)

But then you say something like this. See this is where you keep spouting ignorance ;)

I am not wrong, YOU simply disagree with me, many people do, it doesn't make me wrong. Simply different. And your example is actually a perfect example of where we disagree entirely. if my neighbor (god forbid as he's 60+ and sagging) decides he wants to mow his lawn naked. more power to him, its HIS property and His body, he can do whatever he damn well pleases. And while I may not want to LOOK at him, I will stand right there next to him and defend his right to do so.

This above all is why you piss everyone off MOST of the time, you're short sighted, pig headed attitude that everyone should conform to some semblance of what you think is right. THAT is what is really wrong with society in general. Mob rule is ugly and destructive. People need to learn to live and think for themselves.

Macro: Thank you, its nice to actually see someone appreciating a different point of view without spouting stupidity.

[BYU 14]

Actually, I appreciate RendeR sharing his open and uncensored view on things...to me and the people watching tendencies I have (Hell a fun night out is heading to the mall after dinner and drinks and just watching people) it shows a bit more of the person on the other end.

I also applaud the fact he isn't scared to post and admit his beliefs

I agree as well, it is ballsy knowing the backlash that was sure to come. Live and let live, whether you agree or not, you have to respect his freedom to choose and courage to share his views.

It has really taken this thread in a different direction though :)

[Eaglesfan27]

Are you now the sultan of absolutes? If its not 100% then my point is valid. verifying that some cases, even a high eprcentage of them, are true, still does not make them all true.

Society says religion is a good thing, that does not make it true. Society says drinking is bad, this does not make it true (to excess perhaps)

Society in general is the most people finding the most in common and agreeing to live that way. Society is not always right, thats all I'm saying.

I was/am going to stay out of this argument as I'm biting my tongue from gong with it any further, but where do you get that society says drinking is bad? Society glamorizes drinking. Society says underage drinking is bad, except they do so with a wink and a nudge most of the time. Society does say that drinking and driving is bad. However, with that exception, drinking is promoted in society by the media and most other mainstream forces. There are happy hours. People get together all of the time for social drinks. Drinking is generally not shunned. Now if someone is an alcoholic, then they might hear they shouldn't drink any more.

[RendeR]

I agree as well, it is ballsy knowing the backlash that was sure to come. Live and let live, whether you agree or not, you have to respect his freedom to choose and courage to share his views.

It has really taken this thread in a different direction though :)

Thank you. And yes, I had noted earlier that we should let this thread resume its more tedious direction ;)

[RendeR]

I was/am going to stay out of this argument as I'm biting my tongue from gong with it any further, but where do you get that society says drinking is bad? Society glamorizes drinking. Society says underage drinking is bad, except they do so with a wink and a nudge most of the time. Society does say that drinking and driving is bad. However, with that exception, drinking is promoted in society by the media and most other mainstream forces. There are happy hours. People get together all of the time for social drinks. Drinking is generally not shunned. Now if someone is an alcoholic, then they might hear they shouldn't drink any more.

The drinking analogy is a weak one, i freely admit. I'm at work and really didn't have time to come up with a second really solid one. So drinking was it.

For the most part you're right, It is glamorized to the extreme, but depending on the age group you talk to, and the demographic, you'll get many differeing points of view.

I think the direction I took it from is that the majority of those who would most vehemently disagree with me on the extended family ideal would also state that drinking is, in general, a bad thing. I coul be wrong, like I said, it was a weak choice of examples.

Please don't hesitate to PM me with further discussoin if you' rather not appear to argue in thread. I'm always willing to listen and at least consider other's opinions, unlike some on this board *wink*

[Telle]

What about the psychological impact of children in that family? Most of society is not understanding of such a family, and there are going to be questions from outside families, from other kids, etc. There are going to be many issues brought up that are going to be very hard for kids in such a "family" to deal with.

There are all sorts of situations in which a particular family will be different from those around it, resulting in questions and potentially stress from other kids and others in the community. Not too long ago, children from a divorced family fell into this category.. these days, children of homosexual parents are the ones everybody is concerned about. How about mixed-race parents? How about a family whose religion and/or culture is radically different than those around them? There are countless ways in which a family could be seen as "different" from those around them.

ALL parents should be aware of potential stresses on their children, and actively find ways help them deal with that. Having a two-parent household in happy suburbia with a white picket fence is not a guarantee against having children with psychological problems.

[Telle]

And for what it's worth, I don't have the slightest idea how a 4-5 parent household would work either. And I don't think it would be the ideal for the vast majority of people. But I don't discount the idea that somebody, somewhere, could make it work.. and for those unique individuals, it could be a very good thing.

[MacroGuru]

How about a family whose religion and/or culture is radically different than those around them? There are countless ways in which a family could be seen as "different" from those around them.

Bingo! This statement rings true for me. I grew up Catholic in a predominantly Mormon society, to top it off...my mother was Divorced...oh and she smoked...I think I hit the trifecta for the community standards of do not let your children play with this child.

The point is, people have their life, we have free will to choose and live it how we want to, even if it doesn't construe to societies standards. Now as a whole, is it mainstreams societies job to try and change someones point of view? The governments? No, granted it has been going on for quite a while though.

Society can and will adapt, it may take centuries for it to happen, but it eventually will, and the ability to move beyond has been what has kept the American society moving forward.

Stagnation and the unwillingness to change is what has been the downfall of societies in the past (ie....the Romans)

[Oilers9911]

Society says drinking is bad, this does not make it true

My bad bro, because obviously we live on different planets because the society I am part of does not say drinking is bad. Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to watch 1000 beer commercials, get drunk and throw up on myself.

[RendeR]

My bad bro, because obviously we live on different planets because the society I am part of does not say drinking is bad. Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to watch 1000 beer commercials, get drunk and throw up on myself.


Much to your shock and horror there is a fairly hefty contingent of society that would indeed view that activity and you as a bad thing. The peer group you interact with my endorse it, but other entire subsections of the populace would dislike or even shun you for the activity.

We don't live on different planets, simply within differeing social groupings ;) they do SEEM like planets at times though.

[RendeR]

I just gotta say, I love my wife =)

[jeff061]

Actually, I appreciate RendeR sharing his open and uncensored view on things...to me and the people watching tendencies I have (Hell a fun night out is heading to the mall after dinner and drinks and just watching people) it shows a bit more of the person on the other end.

I also applaud the fact he isn't scared to post and admit his beliefs

My thoughts exactly.

[Galaxy]

The mix of ideas, cultures and values here are pretty interesting. This must be what makes FOFC a great place.

[MrBug708]

Ahh, see now that is my experience of havng people be negative to the idea exerting pressure on my reaction to your comment!

Excellent stuff! I wish I could quit my job in the late summer and work the sterling festival myself. We always have such a grea time up there. We spend the entire weekend camping and then attend the fest saturday and sunday.

Telle and I are actrually renewing our wedding vows this coming summer at the festival. Its our 5th anniversary this year so we thought i would be a nice special occasion kind of thing.

Again, sory for the instant reaction before. I'm not used to getting positive feedback for being a Ren-fest guy =)

First day I part of it, one of the other guys told me that even Quasimoto could get laid twice in one night at the Ren Faire. For my experiences, it's probably true.

Are you doing a handfasting? A bunch of people I know ended up doing that. Sadly though, most of them ended up splitting up. Most cannot conform to the ideals that you seem to enjoy. :) Whatever works though.

Sadly, I cannot make it but once during the season, but I still see some of my old group and know a few of the Irish calls towards the woman :)

[RendeR]

The stirling Festival has a group renewal, vows type thing thats part of a whole package. Its something fun and lets us really commemorate our 5th anniversary, I think it'll be a hoot.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Just to alter the thread direction once again, I hear there's nothing wrong with masturbating.

[RendeR]

Just to alter the thread direction once again, I hear there's nothing wrong with masturbating.


Of course there isn't. its perfectly natural and a healthy expression of one's sexuality.


Well, not for Pumpy, but hey, I'm just sayin....

[Galaxy]

Just to alter the thread direction once again, I hear there's nothing wrong with masturbating.

The masturbating bear.

[SFL Cat]

During my 25 years of marriage, I've had my fair share opportunities to cheat, but have never yielded to the temptation.

I have never seen an open relationship with a happy ending. Yes, I suppose its nice for a time when you can have your cake and eat it too, especially if you can find others to play along. But ultimately feelings change, as they always do, and without commitment, there is no lasting relationship, and heartache is always the result.

[Cringer]

Has anyone else ever had the unfortunate situation of having to screw their wife right after you just finished with you girlfriend?

[RendeR]

Has anyone else ever had the unfortunate situation of having to screw their wife right after you just finished with you girlfriend?



I am trying to fathon how that could be unfortunate.....


Its not a matter of having to, its a matter of getting to =) and I have had this opportunity in the past. I guess I don't understand your question....

[BishopMVP]

I find it interesting that most surveys/studies show 45-60% of Men have cheated in relationships at some time and 35-45% of Women have. But on FOFC just over 10% of the board that has responded has EVER cheated? Is this board population just made up of people with high moral values, are the cheaters not responding or are some of us fibbing?As part of the 90% that voted not my style, I'll be honest, I'm still in college and have never been good/particularly interested (depending on what light I want to be portrayed in) in transitioning into the long-term relationship.

I've watched way too many of my friends cheat or be cheated upon, and would rather just avoid hurting someone/bring hurt like that, especially when I know any relationship wouldn't last more than a year anyway.

Plus, if you can get the girl without buying dinner, why spend the money? ;) (Note to self, this will rapidly cease to exist post-college.)

[Telle]

I have never seen an open relationship with a happy ending. Yes, I suppose its nice for a time when you can have your cake and eat it too, especially if you can find others to play along. But ultimately feelings change, as they always do, and without commitment, there is no lasting relationship, and heartache is always the result.

Why do you assume there's a lack of commitment?

And for RendeR and I.. let's see.. we've been a couple for 11 years now, had some variation of an open relationship for about six or seven years I think, and been married for four and a half years.. and we have every intention of remaining married "until one of us is dead" :)

[st.cronin]

I was thinking about this (the original question, not the tangents) last night for some reason, and the question that I couldn't answer was: What would be the point? I guess it would be one thing if I were in a relationship where sexual satisfaction was somehow impossible, but that's hard for me to imagine. Otherwise, it just seems like pointless destruction.

[MrBug708]

Why do you assume there's a lack of commitment?

And for RendeR and I.. let's see.. we've been a couple for 11 years now, had some variation of an open relationship for about six or seven years I think, and been married for four and a half years.. and we have every intention of remaining married "until one of us is dead" :)

That is what we are afraid might be the end result :)

[Cringer]

I am trying to fathon how that could be unfortunate.....


Its not a matter of having to, its a matter of getting to =) and I have had this opportunity in the past. I guess I don't understand your question....

Just being a smart ass, don't worry about it. After posting it I thought I should have changed the wording, but I was lazy. :p

I don't have a problem with it, though at the same time would be best.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Of course there isn't. its perfectly natural and a healthy expression of one's sexuality.


Well, not for Pumpy, but hey, I'm just sayin....
I'm masturbating and crying right now, as a matter of fact.

[molson]

So why are people beating up on RendeR and not hitting on Telle????

[Butter]

I think we're all just hoping that the most uncomfortable thread in the history of the internets would just sort of die off... but then douches like me keep posting in it.

[Radii]

Man this thread went weird.

I never understand how people can be so critical of what others choose to do in their own homes on their own time.

[Radii]

I'm masturbating and crying right now, as a matter of fact.

You may not be doing it the right way.

[RendeR]

So why are people beating up on RendeR and not hitting on Telle????


Seriously, you folks jumping all over me got your priorities all screwed up ===> She's HOT ;)

[RendeR]

You may not be doing it the right way.


+1

[RendeR]

I think we're all just hoping that the most uncomfortable thread in the history of the internets would just sort of die off... but then douches like me keep posting in it.


Why do you say this? Or are you joking? I haven't been the slightest bit uncomfortable. I know that Telle and I are happy and will be together as she says, till one of us is dead, and that will be from old age. I have no issues with such a topic, in fact I welcome questions.

I do get tired of the backlash from those unwilling to accept us as we are, but due to society having a closed mind, that will never go away entirely =)

[molson]

I do get tired of the backlash from those unwilling to accept us as we are, but due to society having a closed mind, that will never go away entirely =)

Do you have kids? Do you ever want any? That's the only issue I can see with this. Otherwise, I'm just jealous.

People are saying that "Open relationships don't end well". Well the truth is, MOST relationships, open or not, don't end well (including marriages). Maybe being open speeds up the failure, maybe it slows it down (the later would seem more likely).

[path12]

I never understand how people can be so critical of what others choose to do in their own homes on their own time.

+ eleventy billion.

[Subby]

Hey - I think it's awesome that you could find someone that was willing to fuck you!

[RendeR]

Do you have kids? Do you ever want any? That's the only issue I can see with this. Otherwise, I'm just jealous.

People are saying that "Open relationships don't end well". Well the truth is, MOST relationships, open or not, don't end well (including marriages). Maybe being open speeds up the failure, maybe it slows it down (the later would seem more likely).


Actually we have two beautiful children. And we're open to having more. My gf visits the house and my kids adore her. They love having another person in their lives as well.

I really think the main issues people have stem from simply not knowing enough about such things. They know what they see as 'right/wrong' and simply dismiss anything else out of hand.

It makes me feel very good that there are a number of FOFCer's that are NOT like that and are very open to new ideas.

What issues do you have regarding the kids? I'd love to hear them. Perhaps our situation can be an example to learn from.

[RendeR]

Hey - I think it's awesome that you could find someone that was willing to fuck you!


Awe, thank you subby. Thats the first kind words you've ever uttered to me. I feel all warm and fuzzy inside now.

[Subby]

That's your repressed shame and regret.

[RendeR]

That's your repressed shame and regret.

Over...what? I have a lot of repressed issues, but I don't think we've hit on any of them here yet =)

I love you subby =)

[CamEdwards]

RendeR's trolling for ass!!!!!


And since he's hitting on Subby, he just may get it.

[Eaglesfan27]

Man this thread went weird.

I never understand how people can be so critical of what others choose to do in their own homes on their own time.

Against my better judgment, I'm going to respond to this. I couldn't care less what consenting adults do in their own homes, until kids are involved. I strongly believe all parents have a responsibility to put their children #1, and I don't think enough do so. I think an open relationship is unhealthy for children who absorb an amazing amount of subtle (and not so subtle) things around them, no matter how discreet the adults around them think they are being.

[Izulde]

FWIW, regarding the kids issue, I would think the disruption would be minimal so long as there's no confusion who the child's mother and father is and that the other partners in the open relationship would be like either very good friends of the family or the proverbial aunts/uncles.