OOTP5: Groupthink Anyone?

[Swaggs]

I've been kicking around the idea of starting up a groupthink for a MLB franchise in OOTP5. I would need to discuss the details, as far as how often to play and how much to play per setting, but, as of right now, I am looking to form an "explorator comittee."

Positions

Pitching Coach -- responsibilities would include, but not be limited to, setting the major league starting and relief staff, managing all pitchers during Spring Training, selecting pitchers for for the opening day (and following sims) roster, and making all pitching needs known to the GM.

Batting (Position Player) Coach -- responsibilities would include, but not be limited to, setting the major league positional depth charts and batting lineups, managing all position players during Spring Training, selecting the position players that have made the team following Spring Training (and following sims), and making all position player needs known to the GM

Chief Negotiator -- responsibilities would include, but not be limited to, allocating the budget handed down by the GM, negotiating all contract extensions with existing players on our roster, examining the financial effects of potential trades, and negotiating all free agent offers with free agents.

Head Scout -- responsibilities would include, but not be limited to, identifying players of need (based on the recomendation of the Batting and Pitching Coaches and Minor League Director) for both trading and free agency, communicating players of need with the Chief Negotiator, and executing the amateur draft)

Minor League Director -- responsibilities would include, but not be limited to, identifying players of need within the franchise's minor league system for both the amateur draft and free agency, communicating those areas of needs to the Head Scout, managing the depth charts and pitching staffs of the three minor league affiliates, and identifying minor league players within the franchise that are prepared to play for our major league team



As of right now, I think these will be the only positions we need, but a scout to handle the amateur draft and find MLB talent to fill our needs may be necessary, as well. Before adding one, I want to make sure we have a cohesive group and that each participant has a reasonable amount of responsibility. This will be discussed with the staff, once they are named.

I would act as the GM/Owner. My responsibilities would include handing down the budget to the C.N. (based on expected income), sim games (probably a month's worth per night--negotiable), executing midseason trades, possibly executing free agency (although this could go to the C.N.), executing the amateur draft (this could go to the scout w/ input from the coaches), and acting as the manager during the sim period.

Some other points:

You must own OOTP5.
I am online generally between 10:30 PM-1:00 AM Est. Sunday through Thursday. Although it is not mandatory, it might make it easier if we have a similar schedule.
American Online Instand Messenger is a plus. My nickname is Swaggs1977.
I would like to start out with a small- to-mid-market team. This will definitely be discussed.
I will enter my info as the manager of the team in "manager mode." If we get fired or cannot come to a contract agreement with our team, I will retain the entire staff and we will move on. :)
If you do decide to participate, please plan on sticking around for, at least, the entire season you have volunteered for.
All items will be negotiable. If we need house rules (I have had a tough time on my own, so I don't anticipate them), we can implement "owner specifications."
The league will be for fun, learning more about OOTP5, and hopefully, chatting about baseball. We will try to work out a schedule (pace-wise and real-time participation) that we are all comfortable with. I am looking at no more than a few hours a week, w/ hopefully a month's worth of games simmed per night.


Staff Members:
General Manager: Swaggs
Batting Coach FBPro
Pitching Coach: Cuckoo
Chief Negotiator: Anrhydeddu
Scout: Tasan
Minor League Director: ChiefRum

If anyone managed to make it through this post, send me a u2u or post here, and we will get the ball rolling.

[FBPro]

I'm an OOTP5 freak and would love to contribute anyway you need. Batting coach sounds like fun.

[Swaggs]

FBPro has been named batting coach.

[Swaggs]

bump.

[Cuckoo]

Well, I've never done a groupthink before. In fact, I usually just skip over those threads. But, I'd be interested in this. I'll volunteer for pitching coach.

[Anrhydeddu]

I would love to be the Chief Negotiator if I can get a backup. This would esp. be true for March 22-27 when I am on vacation.

[FBPro]

bump

[Swaggs]

Sounds like we have a full staff. Glad to have you both.

Cuckoo has been named pitching coach. Do you have AIM, Cuckoo?

Buc has been named Chief Negotiator.

I guess we can start with two topics of conversation:

1.) do we need/want a scout? I have also considered a minor league director (in charge of assigning levels and advising the coaching staff which minor leaguers are ready for the call if needed). Thoughts?

2.) which team do we begin with? I am personally looking for a challenge, rather than a big market team. I'd like to do a little building before we start reeling in titles, but I am certainly open to suggestion. Thoughts?

[Bee]

Can I be the Mascot?

[FBPro]

Let's take the DRays.....


That makes 400 posts!!!! Yay!!!

[Swaggs]

Bee, do you want to have some type of involvement?

[Cuckoo]

Swaggs,

Yes I do have AIM. I'll PM you with my nickname.

You may to explain a few things to me right off the bat since I haven't done a GroupThink before. I'm not completely sure what's involved. Do you post screenshots or do we download a league file? Forgive my ignorance and bear with me.

I say sure to having a scout. The more we have involved, the better. We'd be able to be extremely proficient in our area of expertise.

I agree in starting with a small market team, but the Devil Rays? I'd say someone more like Pittsburgh, Florida, or even San Diego. As you can probably tell, I'm partial to the NL. DH sucks.

[Anrhydeddu]

I think we can come up with a couple of more positions since 4 - 5 participants seems to be the magic number. Having a Scout and a Minor League Director will be necessary, imo.

As much as I respect FBPro, let's not do TBay, I have a natural aversion to newer expansion teams. Also, do I assume we are going with 2003 Fictional?

[Anrhydeddu]

Yes, yes. San Diego please (being my favorite team and all). If not, just pick a team in the NL please.

[Swaggs]

My early thoughts are that we will have a file posted each night (Sunday-Thursday) after advancing the season.

I would handle the file during the season.

Anrhydeddu would handle the file during the free agency period.

The amateur draft will likely be held June 1st, and could be handled by the scout or minor league director.

Regardless of who handles the file, we would each have input/discussion. For example, we would have to allocate our free agency money vs our needs to Anrhy, who would then do his best to fill them within our budget.

We can also post some text on here, like standings, spring training development, stats, etc (once we fill our positions, we will eventually move to the dynasty forum, I imagine). We could potentially move to a website, I guess.

[Swaggs]

We will be using the GeForce rosters that begin w/ real MLB rosters. FBPro will be posting the link shortly.

Keep in mind that it is just a starting point and we will be doing some major team building over several seasons (hopefully). :)

[FBPro]

Here is a link to the file we plan to use, we may make some adjustments but this is basically it.

http://www.400softwarestudios.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25591

Also, no firm decision on a team just want it to be a challenge :)

[Anrhydeddu]

Can tell me how that works? If I grab a saved universe that Swaggs posted, for instance, would it have all of the info I need to work with it? Or do I need do something on my end first? Sorry for the dumb question, I only have experience historical Lahman-based leagues.

[Bee]

Originally posted by Swaggs
Bee, do you want to have some type of involvement?
No. I just want to make comments and annoy Bucc.. :D

[Cuckoo]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
Can tell me how that works? If I grab a saved universe that Swaggs posted, for instance, would it have all of the info I need to work with it? Or do I need do something on my end first? Sorry for the dumb question, I only have experience historical Lahman-based leagues.

Swaggs could confirm, but I'm pretty sure that it would have everything you need. All you'd have to do would be to load the league.

[Cuckoo]

Dola

Originally posted by Swaggs
We could potentially move to a website, I guess.

Does anyone have the ability to do this? I don't, but it'd sure be nice.

[FBPro]

Like I mentioned, we may look at making a few adjustments but it is basically what we are going to work with.

[Swaggs]

That file is the league we will use to begin. Downloading the file on the link FBPro posted will give you an idea of market size and talent levels on each team, mostly so we can choose a team and familiarize ourselves with the universe.

Once we pick a team, I will post the zipped file and, I believe, you can just download, unzip to the OOTP5 folder, and the league should appear in your menu under File-Open League.

By the way, have no fear of stupid questions. We are all feeling our way around this exercise.

[Tasan]

I would like to offer my services as head scout. I can also host the web site off my linux server if needed.

[Swaggs]

Tasan has been named head scout.

Tas, I applied to for 200 MB of free webspace from flatface.net. I have heard it is a decent free site. If you have the time tonight, could you PM me with the details of your server?

[Chief Rum]

Swaggs has approached me about the minor league directors' position, and after some consideration, I realized I couldn't turn the opportunity down. So I am hereby officially applying for the position, so that the suitable minority candidates can be offered interviews before my white ass is officially hired. :)

Chief Rum

[Swaggs]

CR has been named Minor League Director.

All posted positions have been filled for right now, but we can probably employ a few advisors/backups.

Our next order of business will be to decide on a host/server and name our team.

Everyone please vote.

I'm going to go with the Padres. I like the market size, the in state rivals (plus, I hate Arizona), and they have reasonable starting talent.

[Swaggs]

Dola.

All job descriptions have been updated, as well.

Can anyone think of any more positions we might need or tasks that need assigned to the existing positions?

[Tasan]

I always like the Rangers, good pockets and a solid chance to rebuild, if you can find pitching. Err...I guess that would be if I can find pitching....hrm....Still, I like the Rangers.

[duckman]

Originally posted by Swaggs
I'm going to go with the Padres. I like the market size, the in state rivals (plus, I hate Arizona), and they have reasonable starting talent.

I know I'm not involved, but my suggestion would be the Expos. :)

[Anrhydeddu]

I would like to announce that Marmel is the Assistant Chief Negotiator.

[Cuckoo]

Yeah, I'd second the vote for the Padres. Of course, we'd have quite a bit of rebuilding to do. :D

In manager mode, the expectations will not be that high. I started my career with the Geforce rosters but never looked to see what kind of minor league talent they have, so I don't know if the future is bright or not.

[tucker342]

Any more positions that you need filled? I'm willing to be anything needed.

[Cuckoo]

I didn't know we were doing assistants necessarily, but I can see the possible need. If that's what we can do, I'd take you as my Assistant Pitching Coach Tucker.

[Swaggs]

I have no problem with the additions of advisors/assistants. They will come in handy for vacations and such.

[Bee]

Originally posted by duckman
I know I'm not involved, but my suggestion would be the Expos. :)

I second the duckman.

[FBPro]

Ok here are some of my recommendations:

-Sim minors
-Use Salary cap (85-95M) I think with the change in how contracts are handled that this would be high enough but not too high.
-Use minor assignment refusal(nice addition).
-Only make trades initiated by the AI.
-7 round ammy draft.


Possible options:

-A limit on extensions for our team?
-Ability to sign FA during the season?

Not exhaustive by any means but some ideas.
-

[Cuckoo]

Originally posted by FBPro

-Use Salary cap (85-95M) I think with the change in how contracts are handled that this would be high enough but not too high.

I don't agree with this at all. If we want to have a self-imposed cap for our own payroll, okay, but don't make a league-wide salary cap.

Originally posted by FBPro

-Only make trades initiated by the AI.


I also strongly disagree with this. We may need to make changes to our team that the AI won't address. All trades, though, should probably go before a committee of all of us to make sure they're fair. In other words, I don't think we should exploit the trade AI.

Originally posted by FBPro

Possible options:
-A limit on extensions for our team?

Why? We should be able to hang on to the players we like, even if that's the majority of the team. If we can fit this within our self-imposed cap, I don't see any problem with it.

I'm not trying to tear into all your ideas, just offering my opinion. I know we want to make this challenging, but I also think we should try to mirror real MLB. These things would work against that, I think.

[FBPro]

As I stated these are only ideas, but we wanna be challenged and maybe the fact of playing manager mode alone will do alot.

[Cuckoo]

FBPro,

I definitely agree. We will need some house rules especially in areas like trading and finances.

Edit to add:

I don't know how the team we decide upon is set up as far as market size and finances, but I'd say we might want to put our self-imposed cap pretty low, maybe around 70 million. That's the self-imposed cap I've used in my career with the Cubs, and it seems to work pretty well. A few seasons I've gone as high as 72, but generally it forces me to be frugal and sometimes lose a high-priced luxury such as a deep bench.

[Cuckoo]

Dola

BTW, if Tucker's not interested, I'll be looking for an Assistant Pitching Coach.

[Anrhydeddu]

Here are my thoughts regarding finances, trading and other rules (so far):

Having not played through a season yet in OOTP5, I have only a limited feel how challenging we will need to make this. I think the best balance is to have our hard work pay off in success, much like the FOF groupthink. There is not a better motivation to participate than the real chance of winning and of trying to repeat (or at least, getting over that last hurdle). Therefore, we need set our rules so that it will foster critical decision-making but not achieving mediocre results. The synergy of a groupthink is to decide on A, B or C and see how that one choice effects others and whether it was the right choice.

How we achieve that level of critical decision-making can come restricting ourselves in the area of finances. However, we do not want to impose the same level of restrictions on the AI, assuming in OOTP5, it needs all of the freedom to be competitive against us. In actual terms, not having a salary cap but instead, impose one on ourselves would be the way to go. I don’t, however, think our team cap needs to be strangling. Maybe FBPro can gives us an indication of what the top team salaries will be using this universe and then setting our team cap at 80% of the highest (or something like that). Or better yet, if we know that the top team salaries will be around $100m, then we can go with a hard team cap of $80m. What this does, as seen in OOTP4, is that we will likely be able to go after only expensive FA per season. We possible can go after two but that will likely require giving up an expensive existing player somehow.

This leads into the next thought. In all of my years of playing these types of games, I have never put much restrictions on trading. I never saw the need to. In other words, I have not seen the trades that impelled others to use a “fairness” test. This is esp. true in OOTP where over 40+ season of playing and making 1-3 trades per season, I have consistently seen 25% resulting in my favor, 50% a wash and 25% resulting in the AI’s favor (all over time, of course). Also in those same 40+ seasons, I have very rarely seen the AI propose a trade. Therefore, trading can become a critical decision-making element for the Scouting Director, esp. when we need to dump a high salary in order to go after a FA. We can, however, make a rule that all trades must be with +/- 1 in quantity (no 1 for 3 type deals, 2 for 3 is ok). Trading is very fun and exciting for me and while I don’t see making that many trades, it does add a great element to the groupthink.

As far as limit on extensions, I don’t see any need for a house rule there. The game’s finances (specifically the team cap) will take care of that. All extensions will be calculated against next season’s cap. We can, I propose, to go into next season being over-budget because of extensions but we will then need to reduce salary somehow to get under the team cap. Deciding who and how much to offer for extension and to weigh that against being active in the FA market are again, critical decision-making. I will, however, propose a rule that during the extensions process with a player that once that player replies “had enough, I will test the market” (or similar message), then no more extensions will be offered.

The exciting wild card in all of this is the conditions imposed by the owner in Manager Mode. I have no experience as to what the conditions are but I assume that most revolve around on-field performance. Building for the short-term vs the long-term will weigh heavily in our financial decisions.

[Bee]

I would suggest a house rule concerning the hiring of coaches and scouts. This seems to be a spot where the game is very weak.

[Anrhydeddu]

I see no reason at all to have coaches and scouts, it's another area where the AI can be handicapped. They are a needless filter, imo.

[FBPro]

Yeah, I say no scouts and coaches.

[FBPro]

Ok, I'm now taking a look at the league file and the team salaries are spread out over quite a wide range. Yankees at the top at $113M and the Devil Rays at the bottom at just over $20M. If we start with a team that has an extremely low payroll we are going to have some room to build and grow(depending on our income of course) and if we begin somewhere in the middle chances are the talent will be a bit better(we hope) and have less room to increase the payroll. This is assuming we have a self-imposed team cap, which I feel would be better than a league wide one.

Any thoughts?

[FBPro]

Here's screen cap of the team payroll totals:

[Cuckoo]

I still say either San Diego or Pittsburgh. Start in the middle with moderate talent. Set a self-imposed cap and build a team.

As far as the coaches and scouts, I agree. I just didn't know we could turn them off.

[Swaggs]

Originally posted by FBPro
Ok here are some of my recommendations:

-Sim minors
-Use Salary cap (85-95M) I think with the change in how contracts are handled that this would be high enough but not too high.
-Use minor assignment refusal(nice addition).
-Only make trades initiated by the AI.
-7 round ammy draft.


Possible options:

-A limit on extensions for our team?
-Ability to sign FA during the season?

Not exhaustive by any means but some ideas.
-

We will absolutely simulate the minors. No question there. It will be ChiefRum's job to closely observe and manage the minor leaguers.

No salary cap. The disparity will be good and is fairly realistic, in my opinion. I think we that rather than having a self imposed cap for our team, I will set forth goals for the team if things begin to appear to easy. For example, we will operate the team like a business and will never go into the red. However, if things begin to get too easy, we might have to make x amount of profit per year. We will play it by ear, but I will keep a very close eye on it to make sure that there is a consistent challenge if things are easier than expected.

As far as trade rules, I'm leaning toward no house rules, other than not making an unrealistic number of deals. I'm hoping the greatest part of the major league roster will be acquired and set prior to opening day. I hope we won't make more than 2-3 deals per year during the actual season. The exception will be during the weeks approaching the trade deadline, where, depending on our position in the standing, will be looking to either buy to improve our chances of winning now or sell to improve our financial situation and acquire talent for the future. In addition, I hope to see our team build and retain a core of players, rather than turning them over year after year.

The ammy draft will be 7 rounds and will be held June 1st. It will be a nice break after two months of games and will allow us to get some new players in our system sooner, rather than later.

For extensions, I don't imagine we will need any self-imposed restrictions. I look forward to the group coming together to decide on who will need resigned and what value range we can afford them at. In my mind, setting this range and then watching Anrhy deal with them will be one of the most fun and exciting parts of the groupthink.

I'm open to suggestions on in-season free agency. I like giving our scout the opportunity to uncover hidden "gems" during the season, but I don't know how if this is an area of the game that might be exploited. Thoughts?

[Swaggs]

Two areas that we need feedback in. (everyone please answer):

1.) Let's choose between the Pirates and Padres. Remember if we get fired or decide not to resign, we can always change teams, but for now, please vote for one.

2.) How many games per simulation block? I'm looking for either one month or two weeks (with exceptions prior to the trade deadline and if we are in close pennant races down the stretch)?


Once we decide on these items and get the website in place, I'll come up with a rough schedule to breakdown the season.

Please keep the comments coming.

[Tasan]

Pirates, and two week sims. Any longer than two weeks and it tends to get too difficult to keep up with in any detail.

[FBPro]

Ok, after looking over the teams I vote for Pittsburgh and for 2 week sims also.

[Anrhydeddu]

Pads and two weeks (rounded at the start so as to be Sunday-Sunday).

[Cuckoo]

As the pitching coach, I'd have to vote for the Pirates. I know I initially said San Diego, but after looking at their pitchers, I'm leaning more towards Pittsburgh. I also think that two weeks sounds like a good sim block, a month at a time might make the season go by too quickly.

I don't see any problem with signing free agents during the season. I've heard of a problem where all-stars are left in free agency at the beginning of the season and willing to sign one-year deals for a bargain price. I'm not sure as I see this as a bug since it happens in real life, maybe not to this degree, but it happens. Anyway, we may need to watch that issue so as not to exploit it, but otherwise I think we're fine there.

[Chief Rum]

Padres and two weeks.

Chief Rum

[QuikSand]

My only thoughts are that after doing a few GT careers with the various FOF games, there are a few lessons to be learned.

I, for one, never got a lot out of the whole "play your position" thing - where each person has a limited, defined role. It seems to be what most people go for, and that's certainly fine. But I think the sense that "oh, that's not my job" that accompanies it can be harmful. But to each his own, of course.

With luck, your core of participants will stay together, but don't be disappointed if it doesn't. The pace of these things just isn't for everyone... some will get bored by how slowly it goes, others will be upset that they cannot keep up. You cannot pleaqse everyone - but in time you'll figure out who is really involved, and what works best for them.

I haven't played must OOTP lately, so I don't know much about house rules and so forth, but take them seriously. It really isn't too much fun to play a game that isn't challenging - the joy of a title wears off when it comes too easily, I think.

Anyway... I wish you all well. I don't own the game (yet) and don't seek a role, but hope you enjoy playing it together.

[3ric]

I'm looking forward to read this. Recently bought OOTP for the first time and am eager to follow your reasoning as you play.

[Cuckoo]

3ric, Why not join in?

[Swaggs]

A quick update.

I spoke to Tasan earlier this weekend and he indicated that he should be able to have the server space available on or around Monday. A big thanks to him, as I think keeping a website (even a simple one) will add a lot to the league and give those of you (unfortunately not me) that have internet access at work a little time to scout and play around with the league.

It looks like we all agree that two week sims are the way to go per sim block. That should allow us roughly two months per week when we are not drafting, running the FA period, approaching the trade deadline, or preparing or playing in the playoffs.

Teamwise, we have a 3-2 split with the Pirates slightly ahead of the Padres as our team of choice. My vote is for the Padres (even though the Pirates are my favorite team) because I think the five team NL West is preferable to the 6 team NL Central and Pittsburgh is in position to lose money as their payroll is greater than the income I anticipate them to generate. So, we have a 3-3 tie. Thoughts on breaking the tie? Do we need Marmel and Tucker to come in and vote?

The last item is the league file itself. I have been tinkering with it a bit and trying to get the HoF and Career Leaderboards set up, as well as the minor league affiliates (just for league reality). I have hit a few snags b/c the only utilities for these items are for OOTP4, so I have had to create them in an OOTP4 league, then import the OOTP4 league into OOTP5. I think with a little bit of playing around, I should be able to get them into our GeForce league file. Any advice is appreciated.

[Swaggs]

After suffering through a few minutes on the OOTP board, I found that there have been quite a few additions as far as "extras" for OOTP5, most of which came out today or yesterday.

I found a combo career leaders/HOF file here: http://baseballsimcentral.com/dloads/Detailed/2613.shtml

[Marmel]

FWIW, and I am just backing up A, I would prefer the Padres.

[lynchjm24]

If you guys need anyone I'd love to be on board somehow.

[3ric]

Originally posted by Cuckoo
3ric, Why not join in?

I'm still figuring things out about OOTP. When I'm more comfortable with what I'm doing (and WHY I'm doing things) I just might join...

[Cuckoo]

3ric & lynch,

I'm looking for someone who wants to help me out and be the Assistant Pitching coach. Tucker mentioned being interested but hasn't confirmed. I'm going out of town today. I'll be back tomorrow night. I just want to have a back-up in case we get to an important part and I can't be around. So, if either of you are interested, drop me a PM.

[Anrhydeddu]

A thought/concern. Somewhere in this thread I thought I saw a schedule but I couldn't find it. Now Swaggs said that we will go through 2 months per week. That doesn't sound right. The purpose of breaking the sims into 2 weeks chunks was to give us time to make adjustments, trades, roster transactions, etc. We had thought that 1 month sim would be too long. If we are wanting to bang out 2 week sims one after another, where will the analysis come in?

But then again, maybe Swaggs can determine what how quickly we can get to the next sim (much like what the FOF groupthink is doing). So perhaps instead of a set schedule, we'll just play it by ear? Maybe sometimes we will only get one sim in per week while other weeks, we can do as much as 4. I just want to give the coaches proper time to analyze and make adjustment (and for me to determine financial impacts). Just some random thoughts.

[FBPro]

I'm pretty sure it was decided that we would do 2 weeks per sim, we don't want to move too quickly as has been stated.

[Anrhydeddu]

I was talking about the number of sims we do per week.

It looks like we all agree that two week sims are the way to go per sim block. That should allow us roughly two months per week when we are not drafting, running the FA period, approaching the trade deadline, or preparing or playing in the playoffs.

[Swaggs]

Okay guys, let's head over to the dynasty forum at this thread:

OOTP5: Groupthink (http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=74785#post74785)

3ric and lynch, please feel free to join us as advisors for now.