Help with Electrical (Motion-sensing light switch)

[Fidatelo]

Do we have any people here that understand how electricity works? I'm usually good at figuring things out (be it trial-and-error, the interweb, whatever), but I'm stumped on something and I'm too afraid of electricity to just go fooling around. Here's my sitch:

I have a hallway with 2 lights, both go on and off at the same time. Controlling these lights are 2 switches, one at each end of the hallway. I understand these are 3-way switches, as when you flip one the light changes, regardless of the position of the other. The house was built in the early 70's and I believe the wiring has been untouched since then.

Now, here's what I want to do: I want to replace each switch with a motion sensor wall switch (so one on each end of the hall). I know that you can buy 3-way motion sensor switches, but I assume that if I wire them up the same way as my existing 3-ways then you would end up with this: person A starts at one end of the hallway, tripping the first switch and turning the light on. As they approach the second sensor, it trips and turns the lights off! Then, when the timer from the first sensor ends, it trips and turns the lights back on! Finally the second switch times out and the lights end up off.

Now, maybe I'm wrong with the above, but it seems logical given how the switches work now. And I've searched all over the place and can't really find out how to make it work the way I want. Is what I want possible? If it is possible, is it still possible if you consider that I don't want to rip the walls apart and change the internals of the wiring? So basically I can play around with the wires in each switch box all I want, but I don't want to be running new wires back to the source or wherever they come from or anything.

Any help or ideas would be awesome, I've spent the better part of the last 3 days searching for info but I haven't found anything solid yet.

[Drake]

Rub some dirt on it.

Not sure how that applies, but it was what my HS coach always said when things seemed to be broken.

Come to think of it, it didn't work then, either.

[CU Tiger]

Babbling theoretical dribble.

[CU Tiger]

[EDIT I am ASSUMING YOU ARE COMPETENT ENOUGH NOT TO ELECTROCUTE YOURSELF. I AM PROVIDING INSTRUCTIONS THAT WILL INVOLVE TESTING FOR VOLTAGE AND USING SAID VOLTAGE TO DETERMINE WHICH WIRE IS WHICH. IF YOU ELECTROCUTE YOURSELF, IT AINT MY FAULT YOU SHOULD HAVE HIRED AN ELECTRICIAN....JUSST KIDDING BUT BE CAREFUL]

Dola,
I guess didnt really help there.
Sorry, I am tired and re reading that its damn near useless info for you.

Long and short you would think this iss an application for 3 wway switches but its not.

In actuality you need two regular switches each controlling the same load and source and a little creative wiring. But you hve all you need in place.


This is going to be difficult to understand but if you are pretty handy we can get there.

Using the above guide you will soon see that we have 3 "wires" we are dealing with. (Each of these wires has multiple conductors more on that soon.)


Wire 1 Has a black and a white conductor that goes from the light fixture to one of the switches.

Wire 2 has a black and a white wire that comes from the panel to the other of the switches.

Wire 3 has a black and a white wire that travels between the two switches. These are called travelers. We are going to use theese traveleers to complete our circuits for 2 parallelled 1 way switches.

[ OKAY we are ONLY DEALING WITH THE WIRES CURRENTLY CONNECTED TO THE 2 SWITCHES. There will be some white and bare copper wires in the back of the boxes wire nutted together IGNORE THESE]

At each switch we have 3 wires connected, but 2 of these wires are common on both ends, in reality we are dealing with a total of 4 wires.

First remove both switches, then using a meter, or ringer or other such tester test all 6 ends. ONLY 1 will have 120VAC on it. From now on we will call that wire #1.

Wire #1 is the "hot" input bringing voltage from the panel into our circuit.

Next Connect wire #1 via a wire nut twist and tape whatever to either of the other two wires in the same box as wire #1.

Now go to the other box and check all three wires. Only one will have voltage. The one that has voltage is the same wire that wire #1 is connected to in the other box. We will call this wire #2.

Label BOTH ends of this wire (1 in each box) wire #2.

Now go back to the original box and find wire #1. Connect it to the other wire in the box (at this point 1&2 are labeled you should have only 1 unmarked wire) Now go to the other box and test the 2 remaining wires 1 will have voltage one will not. The one with voltage will be wire #3. Label BOTH ENDS.

Okay, brief recap.
Wire #1 Brings voltage into the circuit
Wire #2 and Wire #3 travel from box to box
The one remaining wier is wire #4. Wire #4 takes voltage to the light fixture.

Now at each box you need a regular motion light. (NOT A 3 WAY, 3 WAY will give you the result you described above)

Okay go to the Box with Wire #1 in it.
Connect Wire #1 and Wire #2 to a short jumper wire (3 wires under a wire nut) connect this jumper wire to the top or input of your switch.
Connect Wire #3 to the bottom of your switch. install switch and move to box #2.

At box #2 (the one with wire #4 in it)
Connect Wire #2 to the top or input of your switch.
Connect Wire #4, Wire #3 and a short jumper wire together. (all three under one wire nut) and connect the short jumper to the bottom or output of your switch.

Now lets look at your circuit.
Power comes in on wire #1 and hits the top of switch 1.
It also jumps on wire #2 and travels over to switch 2.
The light is connecteed to wire #4 and the bottom of switch 2 it also travels over wire #3 to switch 1.

The result.
These switches are wired in parallel.
Whenever either switch "closes" the light comees on regardleess of the actions of the other switch.

So you start down the hall switch one closes and lights come one.
Before switch one times out you reach the end of the hall and trip switch 2.
Switch 2 does not try to turn the light off like a 3way, instead it tries to turn the already on, light on. Temporarily doing nothing
Now Switch one times out but the light remains on because switch 2 is still carrying the load.
Switch 2 times out and the light goes off.

If you have trouble give me a call I can explain it better. EIGHT SIX FOUR SIX FOUR ONE FIVE ZERO SEVEN SEVEN

[Drake]

Dola,
I guess didnt really help there.
Sorry, I am tired and re reading that its damn near useless info for you.


Don't feel too bad about your first stab at it, CU. At least you actually *tried* to be helpful, which is more than I can say. :)

[Fidatelo]

[EDIT I am ASSUMING YOU ARE COMPETENT ENOUGH NOT TO ELECTROCUTE YOURSELF. I AM PROVIDING INSTRUCTIONS THAT WILL INVOLVE TESTING FOR VOLTAGE AND USING SAID VOLTAGE TO DETERMINE WHICH WIRE IS WHICH. IF YOU ELECTROCUTE YOURSELF, IT AINT MY FAULT YOU SHOULD HAVE HIRED AN ELECTRICIAN....JUSST KIDDING BUT BE CAREFUL]

Dola,
I guess didnt really help there.
Sorry, I am tired and re reading that its damn near useless info for you.

Long and short you would think this iss an application for 3 wway switches but its not.

In actuality you need two regular switches each controlling the same load and source and a little creative wiring. But you hve all you need in place.


This is going to be difficult to understand but if you are pretty handy we can get there.

Using the above guide you will soon see that we have 3 "wires" we are dealing with. (Each of these wires has multiple conductors more on that soon.)


Wire 1 Has a black and a white conductor that goes from the light fixture to one of the switches.

Wire 2 has a black and a white wire that comes from the panel to the other of the switches.

Wire 3 has a black and a white wire that travels between the two switches. These are called travelers. We are going to use theese traveleers to complete our circuits for 2 parallelled 1 way switches.

[ OKAY we are ONLY DEALING WITH THE WIRES CURRENTLY CONNECTED TO THE 2 SWITCHES. There will be some white and bare copper wires in the back of the boxes wire nutted together IGNORE THESE]

At each switch we have 3 wires connected, but 2 of these wires are common on both ends, in reality we are dealing with a total of 4 wires.

First remove both switches, then using a meter, or ringer or other such tester test all 6 ends. ONLY 1 will have 120VAC on it. From now on we will call that wire #1.

Wire #1 is the "hot" input bringing voltage from the panel into our circuit.

Next Connect wire #1 via a wire nut twist and tape whatever to either of the other two wires in the same box as wire #1.

Now go to the other box and check all three wires. Only one will have voltage. The one that has voltage is the same wire that wire #1 is connected to in the other box. We will call this wire #2.

Label BOTH ends of this wire (1 in each box) wire #2.

Now go back to the original box and find wire #1. Connect it to the other wire in the box (at this point 1&2 are labeled you should have only 1 unmarked wire) Now go to the other box and test the 2 remaining wires 1 will have voltage one will not. The one with voltage will be wire #3. Label BOTH ENDS.

Okay, brief recap.
Wire #1 Brings voltage into the circuit
Wire #2 and Wire #3 travel from box to box
The one remaining wier is wire #4. Wire #4 takes voltage to the light fixture.

Now at each box you need a regular motion light. (NOT A 3 WAY, 3 WAY will give you the result you described above)

Okay go to the Box with Wire #1 in it.
Connect Wire #1 and Wire #2 to a short jumper wire (3 wires under a wire nut) connect this jumper wire to the top or input of your switch.
Connect Wire #3 to the bottom of your switch. install switch and move to box #2.

At box #2 (the one with wire #4 in it)
Connect Wire #2 to the top or input of your switch.
Connect Wire #4, Wire #3 and a short jumper wire together. (all three under one wire nut) and connect the short jumper to the bottom or output of your switch.

Now lets look at your circuit.
Power comes in on wire #1 and hits the top of switch 1.
It also jumps on wire #2 and travels over to switch 2.
The light is connecteed to wire #4 and the bottom of switch 2 it also travels over wire #3 to switch 1.

The result.
These switches are wired in parallel.
Whenever either switch "closes" the light comees on regardleess of the actions of the other switch.

So you start down the hall switch one closes and lights come one.
Before switch one times out you reach the end of the hall and trip switch 2.
Switch 2 does not try to turn the light off like a 3way, instead it tries to turn the already on, light on. Temporarily doing nothing
Now Switch one times out but the light remains on because switch 2 is still carrying the load.
Switch 2 times out and the light goes off.

If you have trouble give me a call I can explain it better. EIGHT SIX FOUR SIX FOUR ONE FIVE ZERO SEVEN SEVEN

This is AWESOME!! Thanks CU Tiger! I need to pick up a voltage meter, some labels, and those jumper wires after work, then I will take the existing switches apart and see what I have going on in there. At that point I will re-read your post 3-7 times and start labeling things. At that point if my labels all work out as you describe, I'll try hooking stuff up and post the results on here (so long as my house doesn't explode). If I remain confused I will either post with questions or call.

Thanks so much again for the help, this is awesome! I was just at the RONA last night and some old man there identified himself as an electrician, so I asked him if I could accomplish what I wanted, he said no way. Shows what strange old men know!

[CU Tiger]

For jumper wires all you want is 6-8" each of 12ga solid wire.

You are making what is referred to as a pigtail.
Let me know if I can help.

[Fidatelo]

Update:

I worked a little later than planned, then headed to the store and picked up a little pen-shaped power-tester thing. It beeps when it sees power, seems good enough for me. I also picked up a pack of 5 different colours of electrical tape to use as labels. After looking at the motion switch, I have determined I do not need the jumpers, as it has wires coming out, not just screw terminals, so it effectively becomes the jumper end of the pigtail.

By the time I got home I knew it was getting too late to actually do the work, but I re-read the instructions a couple more times and even drew out a little map with the wires labeled etc. The awesome news: I totally understand exactly what I'm supposed to do, why it works, etc! Those are the best instructions ever CU! It must have taken you forever to type them all out, I really appreciate it!

Anyways, I stuck my voltage pen thing next to the existing switches and was able to determine which one connects to the panel (always beeps) and which one goes to the fixture (only beeps when the light is on). So on friday (won't have time tomorrow) I will do the actual work, but I expect it to go smoothly. I will post here with results when complete.

Once again, a MASSIVE THANKS to CU Tiger!

[Mustang]

I'd install Hell Atlantic Motion Detector light switches.


You basically hire a midget to turn the lights on when you walk into the room.

[stevew]

General question.

These motion sensor things are not that difficult to install, correct? I have a rudimentary knowledge of electric, and I was contemplating installing some of these in traffic areas, hoping to save some electricity. I don't have any of the 3 way switches to worry about.

[Fidatelo]

The motion switches themselves wire up just like a regular switch (I installed one in my back landing on the weekend). If you are just doing normal switches, they are as easy as just attaching them the same way the old one was attached.

[CU Tiger]

results?

[Fidatelo]

Well, there have been delays. I discovered that a lot of my wiring is aluminum, which means I've had to go back and re-do a bunch of the fixtures that I had already recently replaced, to bring them up to code (pigtail copper to the aluminum using certified marr connectors and some anti-oxidizing paste). So I'm in the process of that.

What I also discovered is that my voltage tester thing is useless for determining which wires carry the power because the thing beeps within a foot of exposed wires. So while I was able to discern which box was the one that gets the power from the panel, I can't discern which wire in the box is the power and which are travelers.

So I hope to get a new voltage tester tomorrow (if the stores are open), and hopefully do the hallway/motion stuff then. If not, it might not happen until mid-week.

[CU Tiger]

kind of scared thats where you'd end up with the beeper...
Ok new test for ya.
Save the tester $$$.

You know what is hot.
Tie it to one of the other wires in that box.
Go to the other box, tie 2 together until you get light. You know those 2 are 1 traveler and one switch leg.
Now go back to box 1 and reverse.
Back to box two see which two give light. that will be the switch leg and the other traveler.
The wire used in both pairs is obviously the switch leg then you can figure out the travelers. No expensive meters needed.

BTW, nice to see you trying to do it right, Al-Cu oxidation is vastly over hyped. the two were used for decades before the alts were even available....

[Fidatelo]

Success!!

It took about 3 hours, but we now have our hallway wired up with motion sensors at each end!

Things went pretty well, it took me awhile to identify and label the wires, mostly because I was paranoid and kept re-testing everything over and over. Then I was further delayed due to the one end that was mounted with two other switches. That box had the power daisy-chaining along all the switches, but the start of the chain was at the soon-to-be-motion switch, and with the added pigtail there was just no way I could fit all the wires into a connector (even the over-sized one that was there).

So, I decided to daisy-chain from the other end, which had a couple of benefits. First-off, the giant connection moved to the side of the box with just a normal switch, which left more room on the motion side where the switch takes up more space. Secondly, I discovered that the daisy-chain wire was in poor shape, and it actually snapped as I unscrewed it from the middle switch! I also noticed that the top wire on that switch was only loosely connected, and the the wife and I started remembering the shocks she had complained about from that switch a couple years back... needless to say, I'm glad I started all this and have had the chance to fix up these issues.

So I took out the broken daisy-chainer and stuck copper in it's place. This further cleaned things up because I could move copper-to-copper between all 3 switches, reducing my need to pig tail as much aluminum to copper in that box.

During all this my wife actually swapped out another half-dozen switches, so that our main floor is almost completely new switches with proper aluminum-to-copper pigtailing. Then we will begin the work of doing all the outlets, then we'll move downstairs, and then eventually I'll have to confirm that all of the fixtures are connected properly... lots to do! It's amazing that this all began because one little dimmer switch in the basement fritzed out a few weeks back :)

Anyways, thank you so much CU Tiger! We couldn't have done the hallway without your help, and it's going to be so nice to know we aren't wasting power (we constantly left those lights on more than they needed to be). Also, your explanation of how to perform this increased my understanding of the wiring in general, which will help me for years to come.

[Fidatelo]

Dola,

With regards to the motion sensors, while the wiring is now awesome, the switches themselves are not the perfect little beasts they appear to be at first. Some things to know for anyone who is considering them:

1) Due to the wide range of sensing (180 degrees), I had to place electrical tape over about 1/3 of the sensor near my kitchen to keep the hall light from turning on when someone moved around in certain areas of the kitchen. The one on the other end sees motion in the opposite bedroom, but since it is un-occupied we aren't concerned. It's white tape on white plastic, and the switches have a lot going on, so it isn't very noticeable but I suspect Martha Stewart might be a bit chagrined.

2) Something about the daisy-chain of power and the inner-workings of the motion switches causes the lights to flicker when either of the other two switches it is daisy-chained to are turned on or off. This isn't a wiring problem, as if you set the motion switch to just "ON" or "OFF" (overriding the motion detector) there are no problems. The one we installed in our back entrance does the same thing when a light in the kitchen is switched. I'm guessing it has something to do with the change in power draw that must occur for a split second. I'm not sure if the problem is unique to this brand of switch or if it is common for motion switches in general (I've come across a couple posts about it on the internet but I need to do more searching).

3) One nice thing is that the switches don't see our dog, which is something we were concerned about. She's a large dog too, very "tall" (her head is about waist-height on a 6 foot tall man), so for anyone that has dogs you should be able to cross that off your list of concerns.

[CU Tiger]

Sweet, glad it works and glad I could help.

Depending on the brand of switch you may be able to open it and shade it off inside, if you do this you wont even see the white.

I wont bore you with an explanation of the flicker phenomenon
, but suffice to ssay I could recommend a motion switch that wouldnt do it, but they cost $70+ each....

Either way, Congrats and Enjoy!

[Fidatelo]

I've looked at the switch, I can't see any way to get the sensor cover off. Would I have to take the whole switch apart? Here is a link to a similar switch (same company but I don't think the exact same model, however the casing looks to be the same): http://www.acehardware.com/sm-cooper-motion-sensor-wall-switch-cooper-motion-sensor-wall-switch--pi-2090377.html

Just for curiousity, what model would you recommend that would not flicker?

And thanks again!!

[CU Tiger]

Looks like a Cooper/or PS&L switch. If the cover is removeable (doubtful) Try taking the face plate off first then squeezing the top and bootom of the dome lense. If it has a catch it will be towards the bottom, squeeze it clears then you can disassemble,etc.

I use Hubbel lights and switches, their premium home lin has a larger internal (we'll call it) capacitor to absorb the tV spike....

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm just amazed that this thread didn't end with someone being a crispy critter.

[CU Tiger]

I'm just amazed that this thread didn't end with someone being a crispy critter.

Its just 1-phase 120vac....you could stick your tongue to it and it would just tingle.