FOF House Rules Idea - "Action Points" [Archive]

QuikSand

03-24-2008, 07:49 AM

Well, along with many of you, I am still intrigued by the long-term struggle to find a set of "house rules" by which to play solo FOF and maintain a long term career that is:

challenging - I want to face true adversity and difficult decisions
interesting - I want to avoid complete tedium, and enjoy playing
rewarding - I want to feel like my decisions matter to the team's success

We have had a series of conversations, probably some associated with every version of this game, about how to accomplish these varied goals. I suspect a forum search on the word "grail" will pop up at least one such thread.

Anyway - I had an idea recently. I am an occasional board gamer, and I own (and sometimes play) some of the newer-breed board games coming primarily out of Germany. If your board gaming is limited to Monopoly or Scrabble or other old favorites, then you have missed out on a real renaissance in the field. Anyway, specifics aside, I have an idea that might be effectively poached from many of these new board games and dropped into the solo FOF milieu.

The concept is that of "action points" (or something similar) that is drawn from a number of different recent board games - I'm sure it originated somewhere, but I don't know who got the ball rolling. In any event -- in a board game context, the idea is basically than on any turn, you have a budget of points to use to do various thing... depending on the game, you can use your points to do things like draw a card, move a token, play a card, or whatever else is in the game, The various actions each have an assigned cost, and basically it's up to you to decide how to spend you allocated budget most effectively.

Anyway... I think this concept might be useful in the FOF context, though I haven't though it through a ton yet. But the concept would be that you have, for an entire season, a finite number of "action points" (or whatever, maybe there's a more football-y sounding word to use here) to spend on doing the various things that you would do to help your team. Then there are costs associated with the things that you would do... so, to put in an offer for a free agent player might cost you 2 points, and to put in an extension to one of your own players costs you 1 point, and to make a trade within the current year's draft costs you 2 points... and so on and so forth.

I see two possible advantages of this approach:

#1 - one of the things I hate about super-tight house rules is that I tend to lose "control" of the decision-making... but here, I'd be the one deciding exactly what my team ought to be doing, so I think that would help me feel like it was my decisions making the difference

#2 - this could become very flexible based on skill level - if the framework were set up properly, you could just ratchet the annual budget of action points up or down to fit your needs. Maybe one player would get a long term challenge out of playing with an annual budget of 30 points, another might drop that to 20 and then become sufficiently challenged.

Open to thoughts...

QuikSand

03-24-2008, 07:51 AM

QuikSand

03-24-2008, 07:58 AM

Some random thoughts...

I think it's likely best to keep the "budget" of points and increments pretty manageable... line maybe 20 per season, If the number if big like 100, and there are tons of things that count as 1 or 2 points toward the 100, I would fear the amount of tedium that would ensue.

I also imagine that some long-term decisions might factor into the budget as well... things like "wide open hiring of a staffer = 2 points" versus "offering staffer his requested contract in week one = 1 point" versus "offering staffer his requested contract in week three = 0 points." Once you have hired that guy with a wide open contract, the 2 points would count against you for the duration of that contract, thereby affecting multiple years' budgets.

I also think that "use of the full salary cap" might be something that could count against your annual budget... so maybe you could get bonus budget space for staying below the cap... maybe an extra point for every 5% or 10% below the cap you are able to remain at certain points of the season.

Warhammer

03-24-2008, 09:07 AM

Some one has been playing some Torres, Tikal, or Java methinks...

I think you answer your own question to a certain extent regarding the draft. My belief on the draft is that the most advantage is not gained through the first round of the draft, but is gained primarily in the 3rd to 7th rounds (The human knows how to look for gems, whereas the AI picks some shlub.). So, you can assign action points to each round of the draft. You could also assign points to a "Free Draft" (being free to pick whoever you want) or picking with limits (you get to pick the highest rated player at any one position).

I like the idea, it is flexible, you get to pick your spots, but it would be a pain in the neck to setup.

albionmoonlight

03-24-2008, 09:11 AM

My first thought here is actually a potential sticking point.

My main quandary in playing FOF solo right now is that I *enjoy* drafting, and I'd really prefer to be able to run my own draft every year. However, if I am allowed to draft 7 players every season and keep them, I know that I'm going to be able to do a better job than the AI teams overall, and just from that base of players I'm going to have one of the better teams right away, regardless of doing anything with free agents and so forth. That's tough... I don't know how you get around that problem, but maybe it's possible to do so by applying the points system here.

Hmmm...

Could you use the point system to make a mini-game within the draft? Have X points for all non-draft things. And Y points just for the draft.

And then make the draft mini-game based on it taking more points to draft guys with things likely to make them creep up. If done well, you might have to choose between doing all your interviews, drafting the best guys in the first rounds, and drafting the best guys in the later rounds.

QuikSand

03-24-2008, 09:13 AM

Well the idea here would be to some up with some general weights/prices for the various things, develop that "menu" as a standard thing to do, and then have that become a sort of template for people who are looking for a challenge. Use the standard "action points" menu of things to do, and limit yourself to 40 total point, or 30, or 20, or whatever for your own level of challenge.

Warhammer

03-24-2008, 09:16 AM

QuikSand

03-24-2008, 09:24 AM

cuervo72

03-24-2008, 10:17 AM

Well, along with many of you, I am still intrigued by the long-term struggle to find a set of "house rules" by which to play solo FOF and maintain a long term career that is:

I'm beginning to think you get more fun out of this than the actual game.

QuikSand

03-24-2008, 10:18 AM

Possibly true.

OldGiants

03-24-2008, 10:31 AM

Hmmm...

Could you use the point system to make a mini-game within the draft? Have X points for all non-draft things. And Y points just for the draft.

And then make the draft mini-game based on it taking more points to draft guys with things likely to make them creep up. If done well, you might have to choose between doing all your interviews, drafting the best guys in the first rounds, and drafting the best guys in the later rounds.

I like this idea, QS.

For the draft, the cost of action points could be based on how many slots you drop down to snag a gem. In other words, taking one of the top ten names remaining on the overall draft board costs 1 point. dropping down eleven to 20 spots costs 2 APs and so forth. Getting the AP allocation 'right' would force some hard choices while allowing for the needed enjoyment of snagging a late round gem.

Charging APs to use your interviews would be good, too. 1 AP per dozen interviews would cost 5 APs if you used all your 60 interviews.

APs could be position specific too. Grabbing a Center late could/should cost fewer APs, IMO, than anaother spot. This does vary by draft, so it might not work.

I would leave the AP pool for everything. That way you would be forced to decide between focusing on the FA pool to sign/resign or foregoing that to have a nice draft.

A list of high AP worthy items would include:

Signing a Mentor;
Signing a gunner/kick holder/long snapper;
cutting a 'bust' before his contract runs out.

I'm sure there are others.

st.cronin

03-24-2008, 10:34 AM

QS, I read along with your highlander dynasty, and since you claim to prefer building to maintaining, what about setting it up so its variable based on your wins? For example, if your team goes 12-4, you only get to do ____. But if your team goes 8-8, you can do an additional _____, and if your team goes 4-12, you can also do ____.

QuikSand

03-24-2008, 10:40 AM

st c- my real goal here would be to come up with a rule that makes the maintaining itself interesting to me. Not sure about how I feel about tightening or loosening the belt based on success.

QuikSand

03-24-2008, 10:44 AM

Okay, I'm trying to get my head around the idea of extra points being spent within the draft. Regardless of whether the points are from the same pool used for the rest of the season, the same concept still applies, I guess -- you want there to be a "cost" associated with doing the various things that we do to get an edge on the computer teams from within the draft.

I'm not sure how to pinpoint that. Maybe something that just ties to the number of red combine ratings or some other proxy of what we mean by a "sleeper" in the draft?

st.cronin

03-24-2008, 10:44 AM

interesting /= challenging

So what you're looking to do is map another game (using aps or something) onto the game of "maintaining" that makes the chore of maintaining interesting.

Is this correct?

QuikSand

03-24-2008, 10:48 AM

For the draft, the cost of action points could be based on how many slots you drop down to snag a gem. In other words, taking one of the top ten names remaining on the overall draft board costs 1 point. dropping down eleven to 20 spots costs 2 APs and so forth. Getting the AP allocation 'right' would force some hard choices while allowing for the needed enjoyment of snagging a late round gem.

This is another way to go... I guess in theory, when you are going after some sleeper rookie, you are usually *not* going after a guy who is at or near the top of the overall draft board. Need to think about that - whether it creates some kind of "back door" where you'd still get the sleepers you want, but you'd be trading down just to get them higher on the board when you select them.

Worried about both tedium and workarounds here.

QuikSand

03-24-2008, 10:50 AM

interesting /= challenging

So what you're looking to do is map another game (using aps or something) onto the game of "maintaining" that makes the chore of maintaining interesting.

Is this correct?

Yeah, sort of. I'm sick of seeing my team have a completely full and dominant roster every year, once I get through some initial building phase. Even in my highlander career (where I think my rules are fairly tough) I have one of the top 2-3 roster ratings every single season, even after losing some quality veterans. it's just not fun for me to have that happen - I want to *suffer* if I boot an important draft pick, or if I screw up and let a key FA walk, or the like.

QuikSand

03-24-2008, 11:03 AM

... that makes the chore of maintaining interesting.

I guess I would tweak that phrase a bit. It's not that I find maintaining a team to be a chore... it's more that I don't find it very challenging to do. Once I have a team full of my own draft picks, I tend to have pretty high quality players at every position, pretty good depth, and lots of creepers. When that's the case, I don't find any of my major decisions to be all that major -- if I blow a top pick, or lose a quality player, or have a big holdout, or a big injury -- my team survives just fine, since I am so much better and deeper than my opponents. Not that my team is a 16-0 powerhouse every year, but I very rarely have the situation where I actually have to do things like alter my gameplan around deficiencies on my team's roster -- it just doesn't happen.

What I *want* is to feel like my team has an ebb and flow. That maybe things come together for a while, and I'm making "go for it" moves to try to win it all for a certain window of time, and then I suffer through a down period after come contracts come back to bite me in the ass, or certain players leave one way or another.

Playing single player, as it is now, I *never* am in a down period. I have some teams that do better than others, but I am absolutely *never* in a rebuild mode and feeling like I can't even compete for the playoffs. That sucks. I want it to be a real challenge to compete, and that's what I think would make the "maintaining" stage more interesting and rewarding.

st.cronin

03-24-2008, 11:12 AM

Part of me thinks you're hosed, unless you can find somebody like your daughter to take over roster management and contract negotiation. Part of me was intrigued by the highlander concept, and thinks if it were tweaked to give you more flexibility in lean years, that that might work for you.

That's all i've got.

QuikSand

03-24-2008, 11:43 AM

QuikSand

03-24-2008, 11:44 AM

Here's a first cut of point costs for draft pick usage... not sure if I like it, but I'm trying to keep things simple:

2 – Select a rookie player with more than one red combine
2 – Select a rookie player with more than three red/blue combines
1 - Select a rookie player with one red combine
1 – Select a rookie player who skipped the combine
2 – Select a rookie player not on the top page of position board
1 – Select a rookie player not on the top page of overall board

cuervo72

03-24-2008, 11:47 AM

I wonder if the game would be any more challenging if you tried to hide bars. Edit the "165" bitmap so the red, green, blue, and peach bars are all gray. You'd still get overall player ratings, but you wouldn't know where a player's strengths were or where masks might be. Not sure there would be a particular joy in doing it that way, but it might make it more challenging.

stevew

03-24-2008, 12:13 PM

hmm, that's a really interesting idea Cuervo.

QuikSand

03-24-2008, 12:49 PM

That is interesting.

st.cronin

03-24-2008, 02:07 PM

QuikSand

03-24-2008, 02:32 PM

It seems like what you're looking for, QS, is a rule set that forces you to occasionally have to go Atlanta Falcons and start over. I'm not sure that's possible without something really artificial, or without some financial options that I don't think exist in this game.

Well, you're basically right. To totally rebuild is likely not very realistic, and really is more than I even am looking for.

I just want to *sometimes* feel that despite my best efforts, my team just isn't all that good, and that I really need to attend to X, Y, and Z to get things back to respectability. And I'd like to feel that my good decision-making is central to getting out of that sort of a mess.

Ben E Lou

03-24-2008, 02:33 PM

Moved per request of thread starter.

Ben E Lou

03-24-2008, 02:35 PM

Good concept in general. I'll have to chew on the specifics. But one thing sticks out more than anything:

My main quandary in playing FOF solo right now is that I *enjoy* drafting, and I'd really prefer to be able to run my own draft every year. However, if I am allowed to draft 7 players every season and keep them, I know that I'm going to be able to do a better job than the AI teams overall, and just from that base of players I'm going to have one of the better teams right away, regardless of doing anything with free agents and so forth. That's tough... I don't know how you get around that problem, but maybe it's possible to do so by applying the points system here.

I'm right there with Quik on this.

QuikSand

03-24-2008, 02:37 PM

Here's my current draft of a cost menu for pretty much everything under the rookie draft:

Rookie Draft
2 – Trading down from Top 10 pick within current draft
1 – Any other trade within current draft
3 – Any trade involving future 1st round pick from another team
2 – Any other trade involving draft picks in future years
3 – Use all 60 rookie interviews
2 – Use up to 40 rookie interviews
1 – Use up to 20 rookie interviews
2 – Select a rookie player with more than one red combine
2 – Select a rookie player with more than three red/blue combines
1 - Select a rookie player with one red combine
1 – Select a rookie player who skipped the combine
2 – Select a rookie player not on the top page of position board
1 – Select a rookie player not on the top page of overall board

I don't really like the "top page" stuff at all... but I do think there should be some sort of "cost" involved with making a too-clever pick.

QuikSand

03-24-2008, 02:43 PM

3 – Any trade involving future 1st round pick from another team

This is an illustration of my current thinking with all this, I'll elaborate.

I think it's far too easy to hoodwink an AI team into sending you their future 1st rounder in this game, and when I play I generally rule out such a trade with a rule that simply forbids it. Conceptually, I'd like to be able to make such a trade... but I'd want it to come at a considerable costs to whatever other things I might want to do with my team -- thus the fairly high cost. Maybe 3 isn't high enough, maybe it needs to be 5 or 8 or something - but conceptually, I'd like to have pretty much *anything* on the table, just at a cost that makes things a real trade-off.

JAG

03-24-2008, 02:58 PM

Funny, that was the very first one that came to mind when I saw it where I thought 'that cost is way too low'.

QuikSand

03-24-2008, 03:47 PM

Okay... I'm still fiddling around with this, but here is my working draft of a full menu. I'm very interested in comments.

- - - - -

Point Values for FOF Actions

I am building this around my starting presumption that an annual budget of 40 points should prove to be pretty challenging.

Staff Hiring[u]
3 – Hiring scout or head coach with no contract restrictions
2 – Hiring scout or head coach on requested contract before stage 3
0 – Hiring scout or head coach on requested contract in stage 3
1 – Replacing scout or head coach currently under contract
2 – Hiring coordinator with no contract restrictions
1 – Hiring coordinator on requested contract before stage 3
0 – Hiring coordinator on requested contract in stage 3
0 – Hiring coordinator at half of HC request in stage 3
1 – Replacing coordinator currently under contract
(costs are cumulative, and in effect for duration of contract)

[u]Internal Contract Moves
3 – Use franchise tag on player unwilling to sign otherwise
2 – Use franchise tag on any other player
3 – Offer unrestricted renegotiation to current player
1 – Offer current player full or partial capout
1 – Offer current player his requested renegotiation
2 – Offer RFA player an unrestricted renegotiation
1 – Offer RFA player his requested renegotiation
(costs apply when offer is accepted by player, not for failed attempts)

Early Free Agency
4 – Offer wide-open contract to FA player
2 – Offer flat contract with at least 25% bonus to FA player
2 – Offer three-year minsal contract to FA player
1 – Offer the requested contract to FA player
(Submitting an altered contract to a player already on offer list re-incurs same cost as original offer would have above)

Trading
2 – Initiating trade of player(s) for player from another team
4 – Initiating trade of player(s) for a 1st round pick or more
2 – Initiating trade of player(s) for 2nd round pick or more
1 – Initiating trade of player(s) for less than 2nd round pick
2 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that fails “fairness test”
1 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that passes “fairness test”
2 – Trading down from Top 10 pick within current draft
1 – Any other trade within current draft
5 – Any trade involving future 1st round pick from another team
2 – Any other trade involving draft picks in future years

Rookie Draft
3 – Use up to 60 rookie interviews
2 – Use up to 40 rookie interviews
1 – Use up to 20 rookie interviews
2 – Select a rookie player with more than one red combine
2 – Select a rookie player with more than three red/blue combines
1 - Select a rookie player with one red combine
1 – Select a rookie player who skipped the combine
1 – Select a rookie player not on the top page of position board
1 – Select a rookie player not on the top page of overall board
(Costs are cumulative above, so a two-red player off the top page of the big board would cost a total of 2 points)

Late Free Agency

5 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency
3 – Sign a FA player in 2nd through 4th year in league
2 – Sign a FA rookie player
1 – Offer any other FA player his requested contract
1 – Sign any other FA player to a one year contract

Training Camp

1 – Use custom training camp settings
0 – Use default training camp settings
4 – Carry up to 70 player into training camp
2 – Carry up to 60 players into training camp
1 – Carry up to 56 players into training camp

In-Season

10 – Implement custom gameplans at start of season
2 – Allow changes to offensive gameplan during season
2 – Allow changes to defensive gameplan during season
0 – Implement staff-controlled gameplans for season
3 – Sign veteran free agent to replace player placed onto IR
1 – Sign rookie free agent to replace player placed onto IR
0 – Sign lowest-rated rookie free agent to maintain legal roster

Salary Cap
10 – Use entire salary cap
8 – Leave 5% of cap unused as of start of season
6 – Leave 10% of cap unused as of start of season
4 – Leave 15% of cap unused as of start of season
2 – Leave 20% of cap unused as of start of season
0 – Leave 25% of cap unused as of start of season

QuikSand

03-24-2008, 03:56 PM

So, trying to think through a fairly typical season… here’s how I’m thinking a season might look for a team that is basically making a fairly standard number of moves during an offseason. Nothing perfect about these numbers by any stretch – but just as an example:

3 – Hiring scout or head coach with no contract restrictions
2 – Use franchise tag on any other player
3 – Offer unrestricted renegotiation to current player
1 – Offer current player full or partial capout
1 – Offer current player his requested renegotiation
1 – Offer current player his requested renegotiation
1 – Offer current player his requested renegotiation
2 – Offer RFA player an unrestricted renegotiation
2 – Offer RFA player an unrestricted renegotiation
1 – Offer RFA player his requested renegotiation
1 – Offer RFA player his requested renegotiation
4 – Offer wide-open contract to FA player
2 – Offer flat contract with at least 25% bonus to FA player
2 – Offer flat contract with at least 25% bonus to FA player
2 – Offer flat contract with at least 25% bonus to FA player
2 – Offer three-year minsal contract to FA player
2 – Offer three-year minsal contract to FA player
1 – Offer the requested contract to FA player
1 – Offer the requested contract to FA player
2 – Initiating trade of player(s) for 2nd round pick or more
1 – Any other trade within current draft
3 – Use up to 60 rookie interviews
2 – Select a rookie player with more than one red combine
2 – Select a rookie player with more than three red/blue combines
2 – Select a rookie player with more than three red/blue combines
1 - Select a rookie player with one red combine
1 – Select a rookie player who skipped the combine
1 – Select a rookie player not on the top page of overall board
3 – Sign a FA player in 2nd through 4th year in league
2 – Sign a FA rookie player
2 – Sign a FA rookie player
2 – Sign a FA rookie player
2 – Sign a FA rookie player
1 – Use custom training camp settings
2 – Carry up to 60 players into training camp
10 – Implement custom gameplans at start of season
1 – Sign rookie free agent to replace player placed onto IR
8 – Leave 5% of cap unused as of start of season
--
81 action points

QuikSand

03-24-2008, 04:40 PM

As I look at that list, I'm inclined to think that 50 may be a realistic number of "action points" to use for a full season under this menu. That list above, totaling 81 points, probably has a handful of things that could go (more FA signings than are really necessary, etc) but if I'm going to use a custom gameplan, that knocks the total of 50 down to 40 right away, and from there I don't see a whole lot of places that offer a ton of give. Cutting from ~80 to ~50 looks like it would be really tough, which is what I'm after.

claystone

03-24-2008, 05:18 PM

QS, your idea is close to a Fantasy football league I played in where you were assigned around $200 or 200 points and you had to fill out your roster with the assigned money or points.

ex: P. Manning was worth $80
L.T. was also worth $80

It was so hard to make a quality team because of the little money or points you had. This is just like your idea. Can you use your idea to only be used on FA and Rookie draft.

ex: Assign the 1st top 10 rookies (X), then assign the next 10 (X), and so on and so forth. Allowing people to have a budget to get really 1 real good quality player out of the 7 draft picks. Maybe enough to add a FA.

Just my 2 cents. This worked well in Fantasy Football.

OldGiants

03-24-2008, 05:58 PM

A way to add APs would be to accept trade offers that we all ignore. If they offer you a first rounder, you get 1 point. A seventh rounder, you get 7 APs. Basically you are giving away a starter at a bargain price, so you can do something else you'd like to.

Celeval

03-24-2008, 06:29 PM

Celeval

03-24-2008, 06:31 PM

I think it's far too easy to hoodwink an AI team into sending you their future 1st rounder in this game.

What about only being able to use first rounders, without the other draft restrictions?

QuikSand

03-24-2008, 07:39 PM

What about only being able to use first rounders, without the other draft restrictions?

Not quite sure what you're asking here, but my goal with this pricing scheme:

5 – Any trade involving future 1st round pick from another team
2 – Any other trade involving draft picks in future years

...was essentially to make trading for a future 1st round pick fairly prohibitive (maybe not enough, actually) but dealing for later picks in a future years more reasonable.

RedHawk00

03-24-2008, 10:28 PM

perhaps purchasing draft points with your AP would be an effective way to make drafting more challenging? use the overall ratings the AI gives the player, so a player with an adjusted rating of 6.0 would cost 6 points, this would make trading down for more picks more difficult. to add to that, if you trade a pick, penalize the number of points for the average player at that position (ie trade a 5th round pick for a player during the season, take 4.5 points off what you are able to purchase because the ~140th player in the draft is rated 4.5). perhaps the scale is exponential, so the higher up the draft board the more expensive the player gets in your draft points. i would have to look at a few drafts to work out the details...

MalcPow

03-24-2008, 11:03 PM

QuikSand

03-25-2008, 07:45 AM

perhaps purchasing draft points with your AP would be an effective way to make drafting more challenging? use the overall ratings the AI gives the player, so a player with an adjusted rating of 6.0 would cost 6 points,

I think we are in pretty different places on how to deal with draft picks. What I'm worried about being "too easy" is not the ability to get a highly-rated player, but rather one who is *going to turn out* very good. That's why I have, for the moment, some extra costs involved with picking guys who are not toward the top of the overall lists. Adding costs for guys based on how highly rated they are would just send me/us more and more toward the lower-rated guys where I think more of the draft day steals are to be found.

QuikSand

03-25-2008, 07:51 AM

It may be moving away from the thrust of the action points concept a bit, but what about a penalty for drafting players below a certain level of potential? I'll throw 50 out as a number that might be effective. For each draftee that hits your roster with a future potential below 50, you face a 2 point reduction in the following season's budget. (Maybe limit it to the first four rounds.) I feel like the 'too clever' picks are often guys who hit your roster with a potential in the 40s and then creep into being very good starters.

I like this because there's some uncertainty to it (you have to really look at guys and make that judgment about which side of the line they'll come down on), and I think it will hamper your ability to target the kinds of players that make it so easy for you to continuously reload. Thoughts?

I guess I see the value in something like this, but I'm not sure I like any of the potential implementations - including what I am using in my draft above. Right now, I tend to *know* when I'm getting away with something in the middle to late parts of the draft, but that feeling is not necessarily connected to any one factor that I can pinpoint for a simple menu like I'm trying to do here. Yes -- sometimes it's taking that WR who is only rated 28/38 but whose combines tell me he's going to be special. But a future rating below 50 doesn't necessarily mean you've got a super creeper on your hands, either.

At the moment, I'm at a partial loss on how to best do this. Above, I'm trying to make it more costly to grab combine standouts, and to reach for players who aren't near the top of the game-generated listings, as those are both (in my view) pretty good tipoffs that I'm making a wiseguy pick. But I am not at all settled that this is the ideal way to place those costs into a more balanced system of cost offsets.

QuikSand

03-25-2008, 07:54 AM

For each draftee that hits your roster with a future potential below 50, you face a 2 point reduction in the following season's budget.

One more personal thought -- I think there's an inherent bent toward too much complexity with a system like this anyway. Anything that requires note-keeping for future years seems to add another layer to that, which I'd prefer to avoid if possible. I see the point (you don't see the player's ratings until you select him) but if it's possible, I'd like to leave this as something that one could just cut-and-paste in one location and keep track of fairly easily.

QuikSand

03-25-2008, 08:13 AM

Minor tweak needed above... hiring a coordinator at his asking price isn't usually feasible for the many unemployed staffers (who are all seeking a HC position and price themselves accordingly). I'm inserting a 'free" option to hire a coordinator, in stage 3, at half his asking price as a HC, which seems to work okay.

QuikSand

03-25-2008, 09:11 AM

10:08:32 am [QuikSand]: i am fiddling with an empty cupboard team - clearly an anomaly, I understand - but I think my rules need something
10:08:49 am [QuikSand]: I think there needs to be a "free" way to add a player, without using any of your "action points"
10:08:56 am [QuikSand]: just to be able to get one more guy onto the roster
10:09:15 am [QuikSand]: i dont want it to be free to add an undrafted rookie -- too much room for abuse there
10:09:57 am [QuikSand]: so i'm thinking maybe it ought to be "offer a veteran player (5+) his requested one year, bonus free contract" -- and that would cost you zero points
10:10:25 am [QuikSand]: by limiting it to older guys who arent even asking for a penny in bonus, i think that would wipe out much of any ability to really get a player who's worth a damn... seem reasonable?

RedHawk00

03-25-2008, 10:20 AM

i dont know how many guys listen to sports radio out there, but this morning on ESPN radio Colin Cowherd was going on about how men like to build and hate to maintain in life... (basically drafting for fantasy football/baseball is the best part of the season)

probably why we all are looking for the right set of rules to follow to keep the building process going.

wonder if he reads this board?

QuikSand

03-25-2008, 10:28 AM

wonder if he reads this board?

Fine with me... as long as I don't have to return the favor.

RedHawk00

03-25-2008, 01:54 PM

Fine with me... as long as I don't have to return the favor.

lol, not a cowherd fan i guess.

had an idea, not sure if it is up your alley, but how about a Big Tuna Dynasty, start with a down team, give your self 3 to 5 year deal, see how well you can build them up, then leave for a different team at the end of your term, watch them over the next 2-3 seasons. you would then constantly be in the building mode, maybe 1 or 2 seasons of maintaining/bolstering up.

You can then change the AP's as you go from team to team in order to change how easy/hard the process is. maybe the number of AP is based on the team location, how nice the stadium is, fan support and such?

i dont know how many people would like this, some cant bear to run any team but their favorite.

Julio Riddols

03-26-2008, 07:32 AM

QuikSand

03-26-2008, 07:41 AM

An idea I have thought about, while not in the same vein as AP's, is if the CPU could just be blessed with fortune telling abilities. If you could make draft and player evaluation perfect for the cpu, it would force us to be perfect to keep up.

Couldn't there be an option for "Nostradamus CPU" or something like that?

If you mean that the developer could include a higher skill level -- sure, I'm all for it. I think I once suggested (consistent with the current skill level theme, in FOF) "Nightmare on Elm Street" level.

Another idea is maybe setting an automatic 25-50% salary expectation boost for players signed by a human or simply cut the human salary cap by 25-50%. That would make it much harder to keep a team together and could be weighted based on player rating, etc. Maybe limit human contracts other than rookie contracts to 4 years maximum.. this way you would still be able to enjoy the draft, and chances are, you would need to draft well every year to try and keep the team competitive and under the cap.

Just some random thoughts that might be easier to implement successfully than AP.

I have played careers (thought not lately) requiring my team to stay 25% and 50% under the salary cap, and have been bored to tears doing so. For me, at least,m it ends up becoming a massive push to exploit all the "cheap players" angles in the game (of which there are too many) and it never hit the mark for me. But I certainly agree it's easier to implement than anything as complicated as what I'm discussing in this thread.

QuikSand

03-26-2008, 07:45 AM

Okay, for page-break ease, and to refresh for anyone who remains interested in this concept... I have tweaked my action points menu a bit, specifically to include a way for a team to make a "free" transaction in early free agency -- just to make sure there's no reason for any team to ever be stuck with too few players. I limit it to players 5th year or older, who are asking for zero bonus -- so far, I am finding that this pretty much wipes out any degree of meaningful talent (most guys with decent skills are looking for at least a modest bonus).

Anyway - here's the revised list:

- - - - -

Point Values for FOF Actions

I am building this around my starting presumption that an annual budget of 40 points should prove to be pretty challenging.

Staff Hiring[u]
3 – Hiring scout or head coach with no contract restrictions
2 – Hiring scout or head coach on requested contract before stage 3
0 – Hiring scout or head coach on requested contract in stage 3
1 – Replacing scout or head coach currently under contract
2 – Hiring coordinator with no contract restrictions
1 – Hiring coordinator on requested contract before stage 3
0 – Hiring coordinator on requested contract in stage 3
0 – Hiring coordinator at half of HC request in stage 3
1 – Replacing coordinator currently under contract
(costs are cumulative, and in effect for duration of contract)

[u]Internal Contract Moves
3 – Use franchise tag on player unwilling to sign otherwise
2 – Use franchise tag on any other player
3 – Offer unrestricted renegotiation to current player
1 – Offer current player full or partial capout
1 – Offer current player his requested renegotiation
2 – Offer RFA player an unrestricted renegotiation
1 – Offer RFA player his requested renegotiation
(costs apply when offer is accepted by player, not for failed attempts)

Early Free Agency
4 – Offer wide-open contract to FA player
2 – Offer flat contract with at least 25% bonus to FA player
2 – Offer three-year minsal contract to FA player
1 – Offer the requested contract to FA player
(Submitting an altered contract to a player already on offer list re-incurs same cost as original offer would have above)

Trading
2 – Initiating trade of player(s) for player from another team
4 – Initiating trade of player(s) for a 1st round pick or more
2 – Initiating trade of player(s) for 2nd round pick or more
1 – Initiating trade of player(s) for less than 2nd round pick
2 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that fails “fairness test”
1 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that passes “fairness test”
2 – Trading down from Top 10 pick within current draft
1 – Any other trade within current draft
5 – Any trade involving future 1st round pick from another team
2 – Any other trade involving draft picks in future years

Rookie Draft
3 – Use up to 60 rookie interviews
2 – Use up to 40 rookie interviews
1 – Use up to 20 rookie interviews
2 – Select a rookie player with more than one red combine
2 – Select a rookie player with more than three red/blue combines
1 - Select a rookie player with one red combine
1 – Select a rookie player who skipped the combine
1 – Select a rookie player not on the top page of position board
1 – Select a rookie player not on the top page of overall board
(Costs are cumulative above, so a two-red player off the top page of the big board would cost a total of 2 points)

Late Free Agency

5 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency
3 – Sign a FA player in 2nd through 4th year in league
2 – Sign a FA rookie player
1 – Offer any other FA player his requested contract
1 – Sign any other FA player to a one year contract

Training Camp

1 – Use custom training camp settings
0 – Use default training camp settings
4 – Carry up to 70 player into training camp
2 – Carry up to 60 players into training camp
1 – Carry up to 56 players into training camp

In-Season

10 – Implement custom gameplans at start of season
2 – Allow changes to offensive gameplan during season
2 – Allow changes to defensive gameplan during season
0 – Implement staff-controlled gameplans for season
3 – Sign veteran free agent to replace player placed onto IR
1 – Sign rookie free agent to replace player placed onto IR
0 – Sign lowest-rated rookie free agent to maintain legal roster

Salary Cap
10 – Use entire salary cap
8 – Leave 5% of cap unused as of start of season
6 – Leave 10% of cap unused as of start of season
4 – Leave 15% of cap unused as of start of season
2 – Leave 20% of cap unused as of start of season
0 – Leave 25% of cap unused as of start of season

QuikSand

03-26-2008, 07:48 AM

I'm fiddling with an empty cupboard season right now, just to see how well this works... through early free agency I have a pretty weak team with only two or three high quality starters signed, and I have used 31 action points according to this menu. (Actually, I used all 31 points to sign 17 players... then realized that there probably needs to be a "free" way to add roster filler, and I added 14 more low-skill guys through the 0-point method of one year contracts)

I suspect that, playing wide-open with an established team, it would be tempting to use a lot of the "flat contracts" for 2AP with free agents, rather than just offering what they request. I think I made the point costs for a "wide open" contract too heavy, though -- I'm not sure I would ever find myself doing that (I guess with a team making a big go-for-it push, you might sign a stud to a contract only affordable for a year or two, just to bring him aboard under limited cap space... but that seems rare to me).

Julio Riddols

03-26-2008, 12:11 PM

I think the key here is anything that would most likely benefit the team greatly should be hugely expensive. Something that would constrict, but not hinder creativity..

So I think maybe if you were given 100% per "category" on your menu up there, maybe it looks like this:

Starting with 100 percentage points to use per each of the first 8 phases, plus an initial bonus reservoir of 100% (which can be used if you go over your allotted points in any particular stage.) unused points do not carry over to the following season. starting at the beginning of the initial season, the percentage of the cap you use for the team determines the amount of bonus reservoir points for the next season as illustrated below.

[u]Staff Hiring[u]
50% – Hiring scout or head coach with no contract restrictions
40% – Hiring scout or head coach on requested contract before stage 3
20% – Hiring scout or head coach on requested contract in stage 3
30% – Replacing scout or head coach currently under contract
50% – Hiring coordinator with no contract restrictions
40% – Hiring coordinator on requested contract before stage 3
20% – Hiring coordinator on requested contract in stage 3
10% – Hiring coordinator at half of HC request in stage 3
30% – Replacing coordinator currently under contract
FREE - Having scout, coach, or coordinator hired for you
(costs are cumulative, and in effect for duration of contract)

Internal Contract Moves
80% – Use franchise tag on player unwilling to sign otherwise
50% – Use franchise tag on any other player
50% – Offer unrestricted renegotiation to current player
5% – Offer current player full or partial capout
30% – Offer current player his requested renegotiation
15% – Offer RFA player an unrestricted renegotiation
5% – Offer RFA player his requested renegotiation

(costs apply when offer is accepted by player, not for failed attempts)

Early Free Agency
100% – Offer wide-open contract to FA player
50% – Offer flat contract with at least 25% bonus to FA player
25% – Offer three-year minsal contract to FA player
50% – Offer the requested contract to FA player
FREE - Offer any type of contract to player with future potential of 30 or less.
(Submitting an altered contract to a player already on offer list re-incurs same cost as original offer would have above)

Trading
50% – Initiating trade of player(s) for player from another team
100% – Initiating trade of player(s) for a 1st round pick or more
50% – Initiating trade of player(s) for 2nd round pick or more
25% – Initiating trade of player(s) for less than 2nd round pick
75% – Accepting AI-initiated trade that fails “fairness test”
25% – Accepting AI-initiated trade that passes “fairness test”
50% – Trading down from Top 10 pick within current draft
25% – Any other trade within current draft
100% – Any trade involving future 1st round pick from another team
25% – Any other trade involving draft picks in future years

Rookie Draft
50% – Use up to 60 rookie interviews
30% – Use up to 40 rookie interviews
10% – Use up to 20 rookie interviews
30% – Select any rookie player with more than one red combine
50% – Select any rookie player with more than three red/blue combines
20% - Select any rookie player with one red combine
20% – Select a scouted* rookie player who skipped the combine
5% – Select a scouted* rookie player not on the top page of position board
10% – Select a scouted* rookie player not on the top page of overall board
20% - Select a scouted* rookie player on the top page of the overall board.

* - For unscouted players, subtract 5% off of cost. (5% => 0%)

(Costs are cumulative above, so a two-red player off the top page of the big board would cost a total of 50 points)

Late Free Agency

100% – Sign a FA player released during late free agency
50% – Sign a FA player in 2nd through 4th year in league
10% – Sign a FA rookie player
20% – Offer any other FA player his requested contract
25% – Sign any other FA player to a one year contract
FREE - Sign a FA rookie player with potential 30 or below
Training Camp

50% – Use custom training camp settings
FREE – Use default training camp settings
100% – Carry up to 70 player into training camp
70% – Carry up to 63 players into training camp
50% – Carry up to 56 players into training camp

In-Season

50% – Implement custom gameplans at start of season
20% – Allow changes to offensive gameplan during season
20% – Allow changes to defensive gameplan during season
FREE – Implement staff-controlled gameplans for season
20% – Sign veteran free agent to replace player placed onto IR
10% – Sign rookie free agent to replace player placed onto IR
FREE – Sign lowest-rated rookie free agent to maintain legal roster

Salary Cap <<-- Here I am thinking you determine the amount of bonus % available to you in the next season. If you used all the cap, no bonus points next year.

no bonus % – Use entire salary cap
20 bonus % – Leave 5% of cap unused as of start of season
40 bonus % – Leave 10% of cap unused as of start of season
60 bonus % – Leave 15% of cap unused as of start of season
80 bonus % – Leave 20% of cap unused as of start of season
100 bonus % – Leave 25% of cap unused as of start of season
200 bonus % - leave half the cap unused as of start of season (for rebuilding years?)

In theory, I would think this would limit you so that choices were important, but allow enough creativity to still take many different avenues for improving the team. I like the direction you're headed with this - if it could be automated somehow, it would make every decision very important as well as being a hassle free and engaging way to play FOF SP.

QuikSand

03-26-2008, 12:50 PM

I think the key here is anything that would most likely benefit the team greatly should be hugely expensive. Something that would constrict, but not hinder creativity..

So I think maybe if you were given 100% per "category" on your menu up there...

Interesting idea. I need to give it some thought.

Right now, my inclination is to try to give the player (me) maximum flexibility in what he wants to do with in the rules. So, having an overall budget for all categories at once essentially says it's okay to put all your resources toward getting the highest quality current players (and letting things like sleeper draft picks or custom gameplans go by the wayside) you can do that... but if it's of paramount importance to you to use a custom gameplan and clever drafting, then you might have go go without high priced free agent offers and leave some cap space unused. I *like* that sort of flexibility (that's an extreme example, but you get my drift I think) being on the table -- I want to feel that i can really alter the direction of my team's priorities, which I don't think is really available under any budgeting system where I am compelled to spend a certain share of my resources on the draft, a certain share in free agency, and so forth.

I'll chew on it.

QuikSand

03-26-2008, 01:23 PM

Within the current context, in my own fiddling, I fear that the addition of the "free" players might tend to drive the prudently-run team a bit more toward a roster comprising a handful of superstar players, and then a ton of youngsters and scrubs. I am contemplating adding something along these lines:

As of some point certain... maybe the final roster of 53?
2 - Each player on roster whose cap hit is more than 10% of total cap space
1 - Each player on roster whose cap hit is between 5% and 10% of total cap space

Theory here is to make it just that much more difficult to carry the really expensive players.

QuikSand

03-26-2008, 01:30 PM

Just following up on this last idea a shade...

I would like to see it be at least conceivable for a team, playing under these rules, and right up against its AP limit for the year, make a decision like "I'll spend one AP to cap out my star player, because that gets me away from a 2AP cost of carrying his big salary this year, and will drop me to a lower tier of cap usage saving me another 2AP."

Maybe the cost of carrying the high-salary player ought to be slightly higher, even -- to make this sort of trade-off more realistic. 2 and 3, rather than 1 and 2?

Still thinking...

Julio Riddols

03-26-2008, 02:13 PM

My thinking was with the 8 part budgeting system you sort of limit yourself to somewhat realistic situations and keep the total calculation a little simpler.. most teams can't afford to re-sign more than a few quality players, teams trade very little except draft picks and the occasional player, etc.. I can see where a team would be lopsided though after a few years.. But a mandatory 200 (or maybe higher) injury setting would probably help with that quite a bit.

I can see what you're saying though, about the desire to think about the big picture. As far as the contract issues, maybe weight players by their salary? have a salary point cap each year, where a player making..

minimum salary - 1 point,
10% or more below top 20 average salary - 2 points,
within 10% of top 20 average salary - 3 points,
10% or more above top 20 average salary - 4 points,
franchise salary to second highest paid at position - 5 points,
highest paid at position - a rare 6 pointer.

Then, if the average guy is a 3, maybe you set the cap at 138 (46 x 3) and require a 53 man roster..

Julio Riddols

03-26-2008, 02:32 PM

QuikSand

03-26-2008, 02:53 PM

Also, what if you used the tiering system and "rolled over" points when applicable? Say you had 15 AP coming into FA1 and spent 12 of it.. That extra 3 carries over into the draft, from which the remainder carries into late FA, etc.. you could also implement penalties for going over the AP cap in any given phase.

SO, if I understand you correctly, this would essentially be the system that I have now (an overall cap) but with increasingly soft limits for each subset of the season, starting from the beginning. 15 points for the first stage... 25 total points for the first two stages... 40 total points for the first three stages...and so forth (or whatever).

Again - I don't see how maximum flexibility is not the way to go here. If I want to pile up a giant bulk of my resources to make a big splash in free agency this year, and can do so at the expense of other things -- why shouldn't I be allowed to do that, assuming the trade-offs are fixed reasonably? To me, that's one of the most attractive things about this whole concept -- freedom to do anything you want, just a price offset for all those things. Adding more limitations goes counter to what I like best about this.

QuikSand

03-26-2008, 03:14 PM

Open question here for those following the concept...

Right now above, I have the cost of using all 60 rookie interviews set at 3 points. By not doing so, you would theoretically free up the AP needed to do something like a team-friendly renegotiation, or perhaps to sign one or two more worthwhile free agents (3 points could get you one reasonable offer, plus one 3yr minsal guy).

My question is -- is this price high enough? I think the ideal pricing scheme would basically make a lot of these things at least close to borderline whether they are "worth it" under a tight AP budget. But I'm having trouble seeing a point where I'd be willing to forgo my rookie interviews just to be able to sign one more free agent -- so I'm guessing that for me (even if my scout stinks because I had to go cheap there to save AP) I'd likely use my interviews in 10 out of 10 seasons, with only 3 AP at stake.

So, is 3 AP enough there? Or should the scheme maybe be something more like 2-3-5, rather than 1-2-3?

Ben E Lou

03-26-2008, 03:45 PM

QuikSand

03-27-2008, 01:24 PM

Some substantial tweaking at work here -- I'm now thinking that the starting point for a tough season budget is going to be around 60 AP. I'm running my first test season under these rules now.

- - -
Action Point Values for FOF House Rules

Staff Hiring
3 – Hiring scout or head coach with no contract restrictions
2 – Hiring scout or head coach on requested contract before stage 3
0 – Hiring scout or head coach on requested contract in stage 3
1 – Replacing scout or head coach currently under contract
2 – Hiring coordinator with no contract restrictions
1 – Hiring coordinator on requested contract before stage 3
0 – Hiring coordinator on requested contract in stage 3
0 – Hiring coordinator at half of HC request in stage 3
1 – Replacing coordinator currently under contract
(costs are cumulative, and in effect for duration of contract)

Internal Contract Moves
4 – Use franchise tag on player unwilling to sign otherwise
2 – Use franchise tag on any other player
4 – Offer unrestricted renegotiation to current player
2 – Offer current player his requested renegotiation
0 – Offer current player full or partial capout
2 – Offer RFA player an unrestricted new contract
0 – Offer RFA player his requested new contract
(costs apply when offer is accepted by player, not for failed attempts)

Early Free Agency
4 – Offer unrestricted contract to FA player
2 – Offer flat contract with at least 25% bonus to FA player
2 – Offer three-year minsal contract to FA player
1 – Offer the requested contract to FA player
0 – Offer FA player 8th year+ requested contract 1yr no bonus (up to 4)
(Submitting an altered contract to a player already on offer list re-incurs same cost as original offer would have above)

Trading
2 – Initiating trade for player from another team
4 – Initiating trade of player(s) for a 1st round pick or more
2 – Initiating trade of player(s) for 2nd round pick or more
1 – Initiating trade of player(s) for less than 2nd round pick
2 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that fails “fairness test”
1 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that passes “fairness test”
2 – Trading down from Top 10 pick within current draft
1 – Any other trade within current draft
5 – Any trade involving future 1st round pick from another team
2 – Any other trade involving draft picks in future years

Rookie Draft
6 – Use up to 60 rookie interviews
5 – Use up to 40 rookie interviews
3 – Use up to 20 rookie interviews
2 – Select a rookie player with more than one red combine
2 – Select a rookie player with more than three red/blue combines
1 - Select a rookie player with one red combine
1 – Select a rookie player who skipped the combine
1 – Select a rookie player not on the top page of position board
1 – Select a rookie player not on the top page of overall board
(Costs are cumulative above, so a two-red player off the top page of the big board would cost a total of 3 points)

Late Free Agency

5 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency
3 – Sign a FA player in 2nd through 4th year in league
2 – Sign a FA rookie player
1 – Offer any other FA player his requested contract
1 – Sign any other FA player to a one year contract

Training Camp

3 – Use custom training camp settings
0 – Use default training camp settings
5 – Carry up to 70 players into training camp
3 – Carry up to 60 players into training camp
2 – Carry up to 57 players into training camp
1 – Carry up to 55 players into training camp
0 – Carry up to 53 players into training camp

In-Season

10 – Implement custom gameplans at start of season
2 – Allow unlimited changes to offensive gameplan during season
2 – Allow unlimited changes to defensive gameplan during season
0 – Implement staff-controlled gameplans for full season
4 – Allow unlimited changes to depth chart during season
0 – Implement staff-controlled depth chart for full season
6 – Set injury rate at 100
3 – Set injury rate at 150
0 – Set injury rate at 200
3 – Sign veteran free agent to replace player placed onto IR
1 – Sign rookie free agent to replace player placed onto IR
0 – Sign lowest-rated rookie free agent to maintain legal roster

Salary Cap
15 – Use entire salary cap
12 – Leave 5% of cap unused as of start of season
9 – Leave 10% of cap unused as of start of season
6 – Leave 15% of cap unused as of start of season
3 – Leave 20% of cap unused as of start of season
0 – Leave 25% of cap unused as of start of season
3 – Each player on roster for week 1 occupying over 10% of cap
2 – Each player on roster for week 1 occupying 5-10% of cap

Revision notes

3.27.08 substantially revised by QS and incorporated into “Testing My Limits” thread
3.28.08 Increased age of “free” FA signees to 8th year, added 4AP cost of manual depth chart control

QuikSand

03-28-2008, 09:07 AM

One more item to toss out... I played through a preseason with a mature team, under these rules, and I ended up getting four pretty decent roster-filler veteran players with my "free" signings. Here are the relevant snapshots *before training camp*

http://www.fof-ihof.com/upload/QuikSand/four_free_fas.jpg

I am a little bit worried that baing able to grab guys of this general caliber (and of course I was looking at things like affinities, and likely missed out on some slightly better players to sign these guys) might have the practical effect of (1) making low-round draft picks pretty useless, and (2) making me less interested in actually signing real contracts with marginal free agents.

I know nobody in the pic above is going to make the difference between being a champion and a stiff... but they probably do make the difference between feeling like I had adequate depth at a position and not. And for 'free" under my AP system as it stands.

Any thoughts?

QuikSand

03-28-2008, 09:23 AM

Following up on the list of FAs above, I have a couple of potential ways to do this, other than just make the signings "free" under the AP budget.

Here are the rules I have in place now:

Early Free Agency
4 – Offer unrestricted contract to FA player
2 – Offer flat contract with at least 25% bonus to FA player
2 – Offer three-year minsal contract to FA player
1 – Offer the requested contract to FA player
0 – Offer FA player 5th year+ requested contract 1yr no bonus (up to 4)

The harshest way to go would be to just wipe out the "free" signings altogether, and make these signings 1AP each, to offer the cheap deal they are seeking.

Another way to go would be to allow a cost of something like 1AP to sign up to two such guys, essentially making their costs a half point each. (I'm resisting fractional AP for simplicity's sake)

A third way to go, slightly more subtle, woudl be to require that the veteran player be asking for a minsal contract (which would be shown on the player's card with the effective salary being the lowered veteran minimum). As you can see from above, none of these guys would qualify there -- none asked for a bonus, but they all wanted a shade more than minsal.

My worry with this last option is that it might be tedious to find guys with exactly that demand. You can sort in the roster listings of the FA by contract demand, but from there it is not easy to spot affinities, like it is with a "recommend" search, nor can you sort by certain skills. I worry about the tedium there - but it may in fact be the best option available.

And finally, another option would be to up the minimum age of such players -- making it more likely that anyone you sign under a "free" contract would be likely to degrade substantially in training camp. I could up the minimum age to something like 8th or 9th year players sign for free -- meaning there woudl be much more risk of having that "depth' dissolve before you hit the field.

Ben E Lou

03-28-2008, 06:20 PM

And finally, another option would be to up the minimum age of such players -- making it more likely that anyone you sign under a "free" contract would be likely to degrade substantially in training camp. I could up the minimum age to something like 8th or 9th year players sign for free -- meaning there woudl be much more risk of having that "depth' dissolve before you hit the field.

I like this one, and I'm thinking 8th year.

Have you had any more thought on the system as a whole? I may mess around with this some this evening.

QuikSand

03-28-2008, 06:36 PM

If you're looking to fiddle with an already-built team, I would suggest 60 AP and the point system posted above as a pretty good starting point for an overall challenge. I will be posting my own testing thread tonight using 60 AP, and I had a challenging but not brutal offseason.

QuikSand

03-28-2008, 06:53 PM

Started a dynasty thread, using these AP rules:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=64518

...continuation of my old "highlander" team, FWIW. Thought it better to work with a mature team than one in total build-up, though I think the latter may prove to be fairly interesting as well, at some point.

Ben E Lou

03-28-2008, 07:05 PM

QuikSand

03-28-2008, 09:35 PM

An open question here... I already have the sense that I am going to play my seasons -- at least with my current team -- in largely the same fashion. I will probably use most of the cap and use custom gameplans - taking up close to half of my AP budget right there. In theory, I'd be leaving myself a shorter budget than some other teams for use with things like free agent bidding and so forth.

What I don't know is how much more I'd be able to help my team with an extra 10 or 20 AP available for nothing but roster-building. Maybe I could sign a couple more top-tier free agents, but how many? How many guys could we fit under the salary cap? I don't know -- I'm just not sure how realistic it is to think that a different sort of team than mine (one focusing in other areas) would be able to make big gains by doing without something like a custom gameplan. Just an open thought - I'm thinking this is going to work pretty well for me personally, but for a fast-simmer type of player, I don't know that this whole AP pricing scheme is going to be a good fit. Would 60 turn into a too-easy budget for that guy, just because he'd run out of big moves to make for other reasons (like the salary cap)?

QuikSand

03-28-2008, 10:59 PM

A couple more things that could, conceivably, have an AP cost:

-changing player positions
-sending players to Europe
-weight training

Ben E Lou

03-29-2008, 10:12 AM

Suggestion: a small reduction if one of the "custom" game plans is an unchanged version of one of the generic stock plans in the FOFC library. Maybe make that 8 points instead of 10. I'm going to use this in my first test season right now.

Suggestion2 (follow up on summer league idea): sliding scale for who gets sent to summer league.
1st round pick: 3
2nd or 3rd: 2
4th or 5th: 1
6th, 7th, undrafted rookie: 0

OK. Not ready for a true dynasty, but I'm going to try a test season or two using my two suggestions above and a 60-point budget. Link in a few.

Ben E Lou

03-29-2008, 10:37 AM

Test Career:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=64530

QuikSand

03-29-2008, 12:43 PM

Action Point Values for FOF House Rules

Staff Hiring
3 – Scout or head coach who was hired with no contract restrictions
2 – Scout or head coach who was offered his requested contract before stage 3
0 – Scout or head coach who was offered his requested contract in stage 3
1 – Replacing scout or head coach currently under contract
2 – Hiring coordinator with no contract restrictions
1 – Hiring coordinator on requested contract before stage 3
0 – Hiring coordinator on requested contract in stage 3
0 – Hiring coordinator at half of his HC request in stage 3
1 – Replacing coordinator currently under contract

Internal Contract Moves
4 – Use franchise tag on player for third consecutive year or more
3 – Use franchise tag on player for second consecutive year
3 – Use franchise tag on player labeled as angry, livid or demanding trade
3 – Use franchise tag on player with loyalty rating of zero
2 – Use franchise tag on any other player
3 – Send former 1st round pick to European league
2 – Send former 2nd or 3rd round pick to European league
1 – Send former 4th or 5th round pick or undrafted rookie to European league
0 – Send former 6th or 7th round pick or former to European league
4 – Sign current player to unrestricted renegotiation
2 – Sign current player to his requested renegotiation
0 – Sign current player to a full or partial capout
2 – Sign RFA player on an unrestricted new contract
0 – Sign RFA player to his requested new contract

Early Free Agency
4 – Offer unrestricted contract to FA player
2 – Offer flat contract with at least 25% bonus to FA player
2 – Offer three-year minsal contract to FA player
1 – Offer the requested contract to FA player
0 – Offer FA player 8th year+ requested contract 1yr no bonus (up to 4)
(Submitting an altered contract to a player already on offer list re-incurs same cost as original offer would have above)

Trading
2 – Initiating trade for player from another team
4 – Initiating trade of player(s) for a 1st round pick or more
2 – Initiating trade of player(s) for 2nd round pick or more
1 – Initiating trade of player(s) for less than 2nd round pick
2 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that fails “fairness test”
1 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that passes “fairness test”
2 – Trading down from Top 10 pick within current draft
1 – Any other trade within current draft
5 – Any trade involving future 1st round pick from another team
2 – Any other trade involving draft picks in future years

Rookie Draft
6 – Use up to 60 rookie interviews
5 – Use up to 40 rookie interviews
3 – Use up to 20 rookie interviews
2 – Select a rookie player with more than one red combine
2 – Select a rookie player with more than three red/blue combines
1 – Select a rookie player with one red combine
1 – Select a rookie player who skipped the combine
1 – Select a rookie player not on the top page of position board
1 – Select a rookie player not on the top page of overall board

Late Free Agency
5 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency
4 – Sign a FA player in 2nd or 3rd year in league
3 – Sign a FA player in his 4th year in league
2 – Sign a FA rookie player
1 – Offer any other FA player his requested contract
1 – Offer any other FA player a one year contract

Training Camp
3 – Use custom training camp settings
0 – Use default training camp settings
5 – Carry up to 70 players into training camp
3 – Carry up to 60 players into training camp
2 – Carry up to 57 players into training camp
1 – Carry up to 55 players into training camp
0 – Carry up to 53 players into training camp

In-Season

10 – Implement custom gameplans at start of season
8 – Implement custom GP, with unchanged offensive gameplan from FOFC library
2 – Allow unlimited changes to offensive gameplan during season
2 – Allow unlimited changes to defensive gameplan during season
0 – Implement staff-controlled gameplans for full season
4 – Allow unlimited changes to depth chart during season
0 – Implement staff-controlled depth chart for full season
6 – Set injury rate at 100
3 – Set injury rate at 150
0 – Set injury rate at 200
3 – Sign veteran free agent to replace player placed onto IR
1 – Sign rookie free agent to replace player placed onto IR
0 – Sign lowest-rated rookie free agent to maintain legal roster

Salary Cap
15 – Use entire salary cap
12 – Leave 5% of cap unused as of start of season
9 – Leave 10% of cap unused as of start of season
6 – Leave 15% of cap unused as of start of season
3 – Leave 20% of cap unused as of start of season
0 – Leave 25% of cap unused as of start of season
3 – Each player on roster for week 1 occupying over 10% of cap
2 – Each player on roster for week 1 occupying 5-10% of cap

Revision notes

3.27.08 substantially revised by QS and incorporated into “Testing My Limits” thread
3.28.08 Increased age of “free” FA signees to 8th year, added 4AP cost of manual depth chart control
3.29.08 Rephrasing and technical changes by QS
3.29.08 Allowed discount for using unchanged Off GP from library (per SD)
3.29.08 Added modest sliding scale for sending player to Europe (per SD)

QuikSand

03-29-2008, 12:53 PM

One more somewhat open-ended idea with this... what about a general rule carrying something like 1 extra AP every time you are doing something from the menu more than three times in one season?

Just in general... if there's some specific "weakness" in the AP schedule, and when playing all-out you find yourself doing it more than a certain number of time, it could self-correct and bump up an point in cost.

So far, in my limited testing, my top candidate for this is probably:
2 – Offer flat contract with at least 25% bonus to FA player

...but if that cost bumped up from 2 to 3 points after I did it a certain (fairly low) number of times, I'd probably be forced to look at other options a shade more closely.

Some trouble there on the simplicity scale, but I sort of like it as a safety net for any inherent weakness in the schedule of costs.

Ben E Lou

03-29-2008, 01:02 PM

Heh. I know I keep harping on Empire Earth's custom civilization system, but that's yet another component of it that may well be applicable here, as it does precisely that. Once you've spent points on, say, 20% increase in your fighters' attack value, any other fighter improvements cost more than the original values. I haven't played enough with this system to know where the pressure points are, but that makes a ton of sense to me.

Ben E Lou

03-29-2008, 02:43 PM

One question/issue...

Early Free Agency
4 – Offer unrestricted contract to FA player
2 – Offer flat contract with at least 25% bonus to FA player
2 – Offer three-year minsal contract to FA player
1 – Offer the requested contract to FA player
0 – Offer FA player 8th year+ requested contract 1yr no bonus (up to 4)
(Submitting an altered contract to a player already on offer list re-incurs same cost as original offer would have above)

Late Free Agency
5 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency
4 – Sign a FA player in 2nd or 3rd year in league
3 – Sign a FA player in his 4th year in league
2 – Sign a FA rookie player
1 – Offer any other FA player his requested contract
1 – Offer any other FA player a one year contract

Did you intend it this way, that the 0-point offers can only come during early free agency? If so, that's pretty rough, as we can't know for sure who we're going to draft. I'm thinking there needs to be a way to sign 0-point players during late free agency.

QuikSand

03-29-2008, 03:07 PM

One question/issue...
Did you intend it this way, that the 0-point offers can only come during early free agency? If so, that's pretty rough, as we can't know for sure who we're going to draft. I'm thinking there needs to be a way to sign 0-point players during late free agency.

Yes, that is intentional. I'm open to debate on it, but for now I disagree that free adds after the draft is necessary. I want the "free" guys to be of as little use as possible.

If you feel strongly and want to waive it in your own implementation, I can obviously live with that -- but it was my intention that these fill-in guys only be available in the early FA stages.

Ben E Lou

03-29-2008, 03:11 PM

QuikSand

03-29-2008, 03:15 PM

One more somewhat open-ended idea with this... what about a general rule carrying something like 1 extra AP every time you are doing something from the menu more than three times in one season?

This might also provide a neater way to limit the "free" FA pickups (whenever they occur)... just leave the cost at 0, but it bumps to 1 AP once you have done it X times, like anything else.

QuikSand

03-29-2008, 03:16 PM

Gotcha. Having just read your new thread for the first time (yeah, probably should have done that), I've realized that the draft isn't going to be as expensive as I'd estimated. I'll play around with it some more. Starting with 20something players isn't easy with these rules.

I think you ought to give yourself a few extra liberties starting with a less-than-complete team. Like unlimited free signings to FAs for their 1yr asking price, or something like that. No fun being forced to field a 46-man team strung together with twine.

Ben E Lou

03-29-2008, 03:21 PM

I'm going to try it nonetheless. I'm still at FA1-10. I'll sign the four guys at the most critical positions for getting the roster legal, and see how it plays out.

QuikSand

03-29-2008, 03:29 PM

In theory, the overall AP concept ought to allow you the "trade off" of saying you will forgo using a custom gameplan (and maybe other things like a reasonably low injury setting, etc) to free up enough AP to use toward the sort of massive roster rebuild that you seem to be undergoing. Not sure that's appealing from where you sit, but playing long term, I could see that being a reasonable option.

Ben E Lou

03-29-2008, 03:34 PM

Oh, absolutely. In this particular case, I happened to take over a formerly AI-run team that was good (six straight non-losing seasons), with a 14th-year 55/55 QB and a 69/69 go-to WR. I thought it would be fun to see what it feels like to try to make a last-ditch run at a title first.

Ben E Lou

03-29-2008, 03:36 PM

Ben E Lou

03-29-2008, 03:38 PM

Yup. I'm going into the draft with 48 players with all of these RFA stiffs now. No worries whatsoever.

QuikSand

03-29-2008, 03:47 PM

QuikSand

03-29-2008, 03:49 PM

Mea culpa on that concern. Turns out I'd also overlooked the importance ability to sign my own RFAs to free contracts. I'm doing that as well before closing out early free agency. After the draft, I'm sure I'll cut some of them, but getting legal is no problem whatsoever, now that I look a little more deeply. The RFAs are a nice safety net.

As I am now toying with the wording of the new extra point cost for doing any one thing more than three times... do you think this needs to be exempted from that? Or maybe just add two free ways of dealing with RFAs (like splitting requested one year deals from requested multi year deals)?

Here's how I have it written right now:

0 – Sign RFA player to his requested one year contract
0 – Sign RFA player to his requested multi year contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Ben E Lou

03-29-2008, 04:03 PM

As I am now toying with the wording of the new extra point cost for doing any one thing more than three times... do you think this needs to be exempted from that? Or maybe just add two free ways of dealing with RFAs (like splitting requested one year deals from requested multi year deals)?

Here's how I have it written right now:

0 – Sign RFA player to his requested one year contract
0 – Sign RFA player to his requested multi year contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three usesI'd switch it around based on request. There was a 52/52 RFA LT on that Redskin team I just took over. He started sixteen games last year, only gave up two sacks, and was asking for a six-year deal. That should cost some action points. :p Every now and then someone might fall through the cracks with this, but generally speaking, RFAs who want no bonus haven't played much at all and suck. So, I'm thinking...

0 - Sign RFA player to his requested one year contract
1 - Sign RFA player to his requested two or three year contract
2 - Sign RFA player requesting contract four years or longer to his requested contract.

Ben E Lou

03-29-2008, 04:04 PM

The above would also help nerf the angle-shooting of signing draftees to three-year contracts.

QuikSand

03-29-2008, 04:04 PM

Just for note-keeping purposes, in my last season, here are the things I did more than 3 times, with no added cost for doing so:

0 – Offer RFA player his requested new 1yr contract (4 times)
2 – Offer flat contract with at least 25% bonus to FA player (5 times)
0 – Offer FA player 8th year+ requested contract 1yr no bonus (4 times)

...and of those, I am definitely most concerned about the flat contracts -- I got some quality contributors there, all to three year deals, and for little more than minimum salary (minsal was something like 2.02m, so I just offered that for 3yrs and the same amount in bonus) -- and I got this sort of player:

RB rated RB rated 49/49 (went on to start and post 1172 yds and 7 TD)
5th year WR rated 54/54 (productive #3/4 WR)
5th year OT rated 39/39 and creeping (started at RT)
...and a stud youngish punter.

Looking at this last season fairly closely - I think that was the one are where i feel I was "getting away" with something. Not sure if that sort of contract ought to get bumped up in AP cost, though... 3 AP probably makes those guys a great deal less worth pursuing. And if I can only get them on their requested one-year deals... I'm not sure what share of their value they still carry.

Still thinking on it...

QuikSand

03-29-2008, 04:07 PM

So, I'm thinking...

0 - Sign RFA player to his requested one year contract
1 - Sign RFA player to his requested two or three year contract
2 - Sign RFA player requesting contract four years or longer to his requested contract.

Hmm... I see your logic, and I essentially agree. But I have trouble squaring it logically with this cost already in the rules for open free agents:

1 – Offer the requested contract to FA player

Doesn't seem fair to charge a cost to re-sign your own guy to what he is asking for that exceeds what it costs to sign a guy off the street to what he is asking for. If that was even a sentence.

Hmmm... maybe just 1 AP for any requested multi-year deal, and leave it at that?

Ben E Lou

03-29-2008, 04:17 PM

Hmm... I see your logic, and I essentially agree. But I have trouble squaring it logically with this cost already in the rules for open free agents:

Doesn't seem fair to charge a cost to re-sign your own guy to what he is asking for that exceeds what it costs to sign a guy off the street to what he is asking for. If that was even a sentence.

Hmmm... maybe just 1 AP for any requested multi-year deal, and leave it at that?Yeah, mabye that's the way to go. Maybe that's fairly rare.

Ben E Lou

03-29-2008, 08:06 PM

Rookie Draft
6 – Use up to 60 rookie interviews
5 – Use up to 40 rookie interviews
3 – Use up to 20 rookie interviews
2 – Select a rookie player with more than one red combine
2 – Select a rookie player with more than three red/blue combines
1 – Select a rookie player with one red combine
1 – Select a rookie player who skipped the combine
1 – Select a rookie player not on the top page of position board
1 – Select a rookie player not on the top page of overall board

Clarification on the cumulative nature of these: I'm about to select a player with two red combines and three blue combines. Does he cost two points or four?

Kobeck

03-30-2008, 04:48 AM

I like this AP concept a lot.

What about +/- your APs NEXT season depending on how Rex scored your current season.

Next Years APs = 50 - Rex overall score.

or a sliding scale based upon that.

Was gonna propose every 1m in signing bonus cost 1AP, then went to every 1m franchise financials were in the red would cost 1AP, but I think the Rex score thing would be a holistic approach that would tend to hit you harder while you were on top, but at the same time would "reward" you for paying attention to financials.

QuikSand

03-30-2008, 08:02 AM

Clarification on the cumulative nature of these: I'm about to select a player with two red combines and three blue combines. Does he cost two points or four?

Two.

I tried to rewrite that piece to be clearer... the only additive thing should be adding the highest combine points, plus the one or two points from being off the top page. I'm open to suggestions on how to state that more clearly. (As I write, I think I need to make the points for off-the-page 2 and 1, rather than 1 and 1 additive)

QuikSand

03-30-2008, 08:05 AM

Ben E Lou

03-30-2008, 08:06 AM

Two.

I tried to rewrite that piece to be clearer... the only additive thing should be adding the highest combine points, plus the one or two points from being off the top page. I'm open to suggestions on how to state that more clearly. (As I write, I think I need to make the points for off-the-page 2 and 1, rather than 1 and 1 additive)OK. Got it.

Maybe something along the lines of

"the highest of the following that fits your player" (horrible syntax, but you get the idea)

and then..

"plus more points for..."

or something.

Having not gotten too far into this yet, I'm wondering if the draft needs to be a bit more expensive, but more later on that...

Ben E Lou

03-30-2008, 08:12 AM

Actually, I think it's time to rethink the "off the page" cost itself. I have found so far that nearly every player not at a premiere position is off the top page overall... I just altered my wording to say sorted by either Grade of Adj, but I'm not sure that rule is adding anything meaningful. I feel like the sneaky picks are all accounted for with the combine tests, rather than the "digging deep" rule. Maybe we just need the "top page at position" or something stricter but within the position itself, if we want to continue that concept.

Open to thoughts.Heh. You beat me to it. I felt silly saying "it needs to cost more points," while at the same time saying "the top page is a QB/RB/CB/DE party after the second round."

My gut feeling on the draft is to allocate the draft points by colors only, but excluding Solecismic test: 1 point per red, .5 points per blue. I'll have more details in a few, I think.

Ben E Lou

03-30-2008, 08:24 AM

Bah. Screw the SOL exemption. Less tracking that way...

Ben E Lou

03-30-2008, 08:59 AM

Using those values, my draft would cost me 14.5 points, which feels about right to me.

<table border="0" cellspacing="0" cols="17" frame="void" rules="none"> <colgroup><col width="39"><col width="31"><col width="98"><col width="29"><col width="29"><col width="24"><col width="29"><col width="27"><col width="29"><col width="25"><col width="34"><col width="41"><col width="34"><col width="37"><col width="37"><col width="30"><col width="283"></colgroup> <tbody> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" bgcolor="#800000" height="18" width="39">Pick</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" bgcolor="#800000" width="31">Pos</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" bgcolor="#800000" width="98">NAME</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" bgcolor="#800000" width="29">Grd</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" bgcolor="#800000" width="29">Adj</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="40" sdnum="1033;" align="center" bgcolor="#800000" width="24">40</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" bgcolor="#800000" width="29">Sol</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" bgcolor="#800000" width="27">BP</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" bgcolor="#800000" width="29">Agi</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" bgcolor="#800000" width="25">BJ</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" bgcolor="#800000" width="34">PDrl</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdnum="1033;0;0%" align="center" bgcolor="#800000" width="41">Dev</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" bgcolor="#800000" width="34">Imp</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" bgcolor="#800000" width="37">Cur1</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" bgcolor="#800000" width="37">Fut1</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" bgcolor="#800000" width="30">AP</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" bgcolor="#800000" width="283">Comments</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" height="16">1(20)</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">WR</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">Ethan Hammond</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="5.9" sdnum="1033;0;0.0" align="center">5.9</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="6.1" sdnum="1033;0;0.0" align="center">6.1</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">!</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">!</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">+</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">+</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">-</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">+</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.23" sdnum="1033;0;0%" align="center">23%</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">xxx</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="25" sdnum="1033;" align="center">25</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="53" sdnum="1033;" align="center">53</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="3.5" sdnum="1033;" align="center">3.5</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="left">Should start immediately.</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" height="16">2(19)</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">DT</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">Robert Heyward</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="5.6" sdnum="1033;0;0.0" align="center">5.6</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="6.1" sdnum="1033;0;0.0" align="center">6.1</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">!</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">!</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">+</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">+</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">+</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">xxx</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.28" sdnum="1033;0;0%" align="center">28%</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">xxx</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="30" sdnum="1033;" align="center">30</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="42" sdnum="1033;" align="center">42</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="3.5" sdnum="1033;" align="center">3.5</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="left">Yeah, so forget that 3-4 idea. Can't pass him up.</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" height="16">3(18)</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">S</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center"> Wade Bailey</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="5" sdnum="1033;0;0.0" align="center">5.0</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="4.7" sdnum="1033;0;0.0" align="center">4.7</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">+</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">+</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">-</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">!</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.23" sdnum="1033;0;0%" align="center">23%</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">xxx</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="16" sdnum="1033;" align="center">16</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="38" sdnum="1033;" align="center">38</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="2" sdnum="1033;" align="center">2</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="left">getting old there</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" height="16">4(17)</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">G</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">Clay Shanabrough</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="4.9" sdnum="1033;0;0.0" align="center">4.9</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="4.7" sdnum="1033;0;0.0" align="center">4.7</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">+</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">+</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">+</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">+</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">xxx</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.3" sdnum="1033;0;0%" align="center">30%</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">xxx</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="28" sdnum="1033;" align="center">28</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="44" sdnum="1033;" align="center">44</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="2" sdnum="1033;" align="center">2</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="left">should see significant playing time this season</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" height="16">5(16)</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">QB</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">Scrap Horst</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="4.6" sdnum="1033;0;0.0" align="center">4.6</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="5.2" sdnum="1033;0;0.0" align="center">5.2</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">+</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">+</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.18" sdnum="1033;0;0%" align="center">18%</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">xxx</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="13" sdnum="1033;" align="center">13</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="46" sdnum="1033;" align="center">46</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="1" sdnum="1033;" align="center">1</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="left">Thus begins the process of finding the future QB...</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" height="16">6(15)</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">DE</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">Clarence Canadeo</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="4.3" sdnum="1033;0;0.0" align="center">4.3</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="4.7" sdnum="1033;0;0.0" align="center">4.7</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">!</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">+</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">-</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">xxx</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.15" sdnum="1033;0;0%" align="center">15%</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">xxx</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="17" sdnum="1033;" align="center">17</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="47" sdnum="1033;" align="center">47</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="1.5" sdnum="1033;" align="center">1.5</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="left">Another youngster who should play a lot.</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" height="16">7(23)</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">RB</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">Louie Prior</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="4.02" sdnum="1033;0;0.0" align="center">4.0</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="4.2" sdnum="1033;0;0.0" align="center">4.2</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">+</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">+</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">-</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.46" sdnum="1033;0;0%" align="center">46%</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">xxx</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="17" sdnum="1033;" align="center">17</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="23" sdnum="1033;" align="center">23</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="1" sdnum="1033;" align="center">1</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="left">Could be my RB2 this season.</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" height="14">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdnum="1033;0;0.0" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdnum="1033;0;0.0" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdnum="1033;0;0%" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="14.5" sdnum="1033;" align="center">14.5</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="left">
</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

Ben E Lou

03-30-2008, 09:13 AM

Or, if you're not a fan of the .5, just go with 2 and 1 and up the budget to 70 or 75 points.

QuikSand

03-30-2008, 11:52 AM

My gut feeling on the draft is to allocate the draft points by colors only, but excluding Solecismic test: 1 point per red, .5 points per blue. I'll have more details in a few, I think.

Well, another way to go overall would be to make this a bit more like the rest of the trade-offs... where the cost to you is essentially one between turning over the decision to the staff, or doing it yourself.

Something like:

6 - Make all draft picks yourself
3 - Make picks in rounds 1 and 2 yourself
1 - Make picks in rounds 1 through 5 yourself
0 - Have staff make draft picks

...and then, perhaps, some limited extra point costs for extraordinary players when you select them, but the real point costs would be just to have control over this yourself.

QuikSand

03-30-2008, 12:04 PM

Okay I have an issue of philosophy over the application of AP to the draft. After reading your post above, SD, I guess I'm leaning now toward this -- I don't think I like a system where you are compelled to have mixed feelings about seeing a great draft pick fall to your slot, like the DT in round two. Overall, I like how this system allows you to generally say "yes, I will do this, even though that means I won't be able to do that." To me, that's the essence of this system. But if we make you pay a high AP price to select the great player who fell to your draft pick, we're essentially taking much of the "joy" out of the draft -- your enthusiasm for picking the best guy will necessarily be offset by your realization that his AP cost makes him a more expensive pick than another guy would be. I don't like that, as a matter of concept.

As for the idea above... maybe rather than turning over the draft to the staff (which I can't imagine I would ever want to do, nor would most FOFers) - maybe there's a middle ground, like a lower AP cost (or zero) for selecting the top guy listed at his position -- sort of a proxy for turning the decision-making over to the "big board' rather than you making the actual choice yourself. Related idea, I guess.

Ben E Lou

03-30-2008, 12:16 PM

Yeah. I hear you. Of course, I tend to have mixed feelings when guys like that fall to me regardless, because I feel like I'm "getting away" with something. Even the WR in round one had that feeling, probably because of how highly we value WRs in MP leagues. I guess what I'm saying is that I'd feel a bit better about it if there were some cost associated with it.

How does a post-camp extra allocation of points strike you? Something like 2 points for each +7 or better, and one point for each +3 to +6.

Ben E Lou

03-30-2008, 12:49 PM

...like a lower AP cost (or zero) for selecting the top guy listed at his position..I like this idea.

Heck, what if you use the following, but lower the cost by one point (rounds 1-5 only) when the top guy at his position is picked?

1(1)-1(5): 6 points
1(6)-1(16): 5 points
1(17)-1(32): 4 points
2(1)-2(32): 3 points
3(1)-3(32): 2 points
4(1)-5(32): 1 point
6(1)-7(32): 0 points

It's much easier to budget that way, and still allows some control. I know going into the draft above that it's going to cost me 11 points, but if I select the top guy at a position once or twice, I can lower it. For a team that came by a high draft choice naturally, a 13-point draft isn't a big deal at all. But I think it helps beef up the cost of trading for a future first to the point that I'd be willing to consider doing it. Even with the 5-point one-time cost right now, it feels like cheating the system to target a bad team for a future first.

QuikSand

03-30-2008, 01:35 PM

Need to chew on it some more.

I confess that in a recent draft, I had my eye on a QB from down the list, and I strategically waited until he just barely inched onto the front page before taking him, to avoid triggering an AP cost for a guy I was clearly going to get anyway. I wonder if we'd just end up doing the same sort of corny things -- even to the point of trading around in the draft to try to let your target guy inch up at his position and then take him once he gets to the top of the position list. That seems dumb and tedious to me - I'd prefer to avoid it.

QuikSand

03-30-2008, 03:04 PM

1(1)-1(5): 6 points
1(6)-1(16): 5 points
1(17)-1(32): 4 points
2(1)-2(32): 3 points
3(1)-3(32): 2 points
4(1)-5(32): 1 point
6(1)-7(32): 0 points

Okay... what about this. Start with essentially the cost schedule you detail above. Then you would add a slight extra cost for getting the obvious combine standouts... like perhaps:

+1 point if player has 2 or more red combines
+1 point if player has 4 or more red + blue combines
-1 point if player is at the top of his sorted position list, including a tie

So, for a standard "good team" picking in the lower half of the draft, their starting point cost would be 11 points...if they are fully shooting the "creeper" angles in the draft that cost will rise a bit, and if they are willing to go with the flow, then can drop the cost a bit.

And at any point, you are empowered to turn drafting over to the scout, take what he gives you, and it doesn't cost you anything in AP.

So, the net cost might be:
16 - for totally hands-on draft, completely shooting for big workout guys
12 - standard draft, a few sleepers, maybe a couple BPAs
8 - economy draft, BPAs at need position other than one or two key guys

Ben E Lou

03-30-2008, 03:20 PM

Me likey.

QuikSand

03-30-2008, 04:14 PM

One twist to the above... I can already foresee me, as a typical angle-shooter, looking to drift picks down a notch here or there to take advantage of the cliff effect inherent in any graded system. Plus, I'm still worried about feeling that i have to *pay* for every good player I draft. So, one twist, that I think addresses both issues fairly effectively:

+1 point if player drafted after first round has 2 or more red combines
+1 point if player drafted after first round has 4 or more red + blue combines

In theory, I sort of like the notion that round one is wide open -- after all, that is where you are **supposed** to be getting the top guys with the big flashy skills. So, taking a guy who looks really good isn't a penalty if it's in round one -- it's the later picks where the costs kick in.

And, this also eliminates most or all of the incentive I might have, in a typical year (like the one I have coming up) to do something seemingly dumb like trade down from 1.30 to 2.01...just for the purpose of getting the lower AP cost and perhaps a more flexible contract (and likely the same player).

QuikSand

03-30-2008, 04:30 PM

Action Point Values for FOF House Rules

Staff Hiring
3 – Scout or head coach who was hired with no contract restrictions
2 – Scout or head coach who was offered his requested contract before stage 3
0 – Scout or head coach who was offered his requested contract in stage 3
1 – Replacing scout or head coach currently under contract
2 – Hiring coordinator with no contract restrictions
1 – Hiring coordinator on requested contract before stage 3
0 – Hiring coordinator on requested contract in stage 3
0 – Hiring coordinator at half of his HC request in stage 3
1 – Replacing coordinator currently under contract

Internal Contract Moves
4 – Use franchise tag on player for third consecutive year or more
3 – Use franchise tag on player for second consecutive year
3 – Use franchise tag on player labeled as angry, livid or demanding trade
3 – Use franchise tag on player with loyalty rating of zero
2 – Use franchise tag on any other player
3 – Send former 1st round pick to European league
2 – Send former 2nd or 3rd round pick to European league
1 – Send former 4th or 5th round pick or undrafted rookie to European league
0 – Send former 6th or 7th round pick or former to European league
4 – Sign current player to unrestricted renegotiation
2 – Sign current player to his requested renegotiation
0 – Sign current player to a full or partial capout
2 – Sign RFA player on an unrestricted new contract
1 – Sign RFA player to his requested multi year contract
0 – Sign RFA player to his requested one year contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Early Free Agency
4 – Offer FA player an unrestricted contract
2 – Offer FA player a flat contract with at least 25% bonus
2 – Offer FA player a three-year minsal contract
1 – Offer FA player his requested contract
0 – Offer FA player 8th year+ requested contract 1yr no bonus
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses
(Submitting an altered contract to a player already on offer list re-incurs same cost as original offer would have above)

Trading
2 – Initiating trade for player from another team
4 – Initiating trade of player(s) for a 1st round pick or more
2 – Initiating trade of player(s) for 2nd round pick or more
1 – Initiating trade of player(s) for less than 2nd round pick
2 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that fails “fairness test”
1 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that passes “fairness test”
2 – Trading down from Top 10 pick within current draft
1 – Any other trade within current draft
5 – Any trade involving future 1st round pick from another team
2 – Any other trade involving draft picks in future years
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Rookie Draft
6 – Use up to 60 rookie interviews
5 – Use up to 40 rookie interviews
3 – Use up to 20 rookie interviews
6 – Manually use draft pick between 1.1 and 1.5
5 – Manually use draft picks between 1.6 and 1.16
4 – Manually use draft pick between 1.17 and 1.32
3 – Manually use 2nd round draft pick
2 – Manually use 3rd round draft pick
1 – Manually use 4th or 5th round draft pick
0 – Manually use 6th or 7th round draft pick
0 – Cost of allowing scout to select pick in any round
1 – Added cost if player drafted after first round has 2 or more red combines
1 – Added cost if player drafted after first round has 4 or more red + blue combines
-1 – Deduction from positive AP cost for selecting top player on position board

Late Free Agency
5 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency
4 – Sign a FA player in 2nd or 3rd year in league
3 – Sign a FA player in his 4th year in league
2 – Sign a FA rookie player
1 – Offer any other FA player his requested contract
1 – Offer any other FA player a one year contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Training Camp
3 – Use custom training camp settings
0 – Use default training camp settings
5 – Carry up to 70 players into training camp
3 – Carry up to 60 players into training camp
2 – Carry up to 57 players into training camp
1 – Carry up to 55 players into training camp
0 – Carry up to 53 players into training camp

In-Season

10 – Implement custom gameplans at start of season
8 – Implement custom GP, with unchanged offensive gameplan from FOFC library
2 – Allow unlimited changes to offensive gameplan during season
2 – Allow unlimited changes to defensive gameplan during season
0 – Implement staff-controlled gameplans for full season
4 – Allow unlimited changes to depth chart during season
0 – Implement staff-controlled depth chart for full season
6 – Set injury rate at 100
3 – Set injury rate at 150
0 – Set injury rate at 200
3 – Sign veteran free agent to replace player placed onto IR
1 – Sign rookie free agent to replace player placed onto IR
0 – Sign lowest-rated rookie free agent to maintain legal roster

Salary Cap
15 – Use entire salary cap
12 – Leave 5% of cap unused as of start of season
9 – Leave 10% of cap unused as of start of season
6 – Leave 15% of cap unused as of start of season
3 – Leave 20% of cap unused as of start of season
0 – Leave 25% of cap unused as of start of season
3 – Each player on roster for week 1 occupying over 10% of cap
2 – Each player on roster for week 1 occupying 5-10% of cap

Revision notes

3.27.08 substantially revised by QS and incorporated into “Testing My Limits” thread
3.28.08 Increased age of “free” FA signees to 8th year, added 4AP cost of manual depth chart control
3.29.08 Rephrasing and technical changes by QS
3.29.08 Allowed discount for using unchanged Off GP from library (per SD)
3.29.08 Added modest sliding scale for sending player to Europe (per SD)
3.29.08 Added additional cost increment for transactions being used repeatedly
3.29.08 Clarify cost for taking rookie not on overall top page is as by Grade or Adj
3.30.08 Revise draft AP system, AP based on location, skills, with top-guy discount

QuikSand

03-30-2008, 08:18 PM

Here's an idea I don't know if I like... but it would be one way to curb the too-easy FA signings that I have lamented a couple of times in this thread.

Current items:

2 – Offer FA player a flat contract with at least 25% bonus
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Possible rewrite:

3 – Offer FA player a flat contract with at least 25% bonus
2 – Offer FA player a flat contract with at least 50% bonus
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Basically, this would force most FA deals for big-money players to become largely guaranteed, to get into the 2 AP category. And it would make the deals that I'm fretting over (decent guy getting no offers, so use 2 AP and offer him 3yrs, minsal plus the minimum bonus needed to make the offer legal under the 25% rule) a 3 AP transaction.

I'm thinking about this one...

AlexB

04-12-2008, 02:55 PM

QuikSand

04-12-2008, 09:57 PM

Like the idea, just need clarification on one thing in FA - am I right in thinking that there's no differentiation in terms of AP cost between your own players who have become free agents, and FAs from other teams or who have been cut ?

Correct, unless there's something specifically mentioned.

(Like in late free agency, I find that occasionally AI teams will resolve a cap crisis by cutting their best players... and above I've assigned a specifically high AP cost to signing such guys, as I think it's a too-easy edge to get to do so)

AlexB

04-13-2008, 03:19 AM

Cheers for the confirmation: I was coming more from the point of resigning your own guys - I agree it's too easy picking up AI cap-hell victims at times.

I'll give this a whirl - 60 seems a tough limit in that case!

Edit - another clarification: franchising a 'standard' player for the first time, and then signing him on his requested multi-year deal would cost 2+2?

QuikSand

04-13-2008, 08:52 AM

My sense from my own play is that there's enough added value from cohesion and familiarity to re-signing your own players, that no AP discount needs to apply. On a mature team, I still invest more AP in re-signings than I do wide-open contract offers.

Also, since it costs AP just to make a contract *offer* in early free agency, the loyalty bonus you get with your own players makes them a safer bet anyway.

So -- all in all, same AP costs, but I (for one) find myself thinking about re-signings and open signings fairly differently.

Edit - another clarification: franchising a 'standard' player for the first time, and then signing him on his requested multi-year deal would cost 2+2?

That's correct as well.

QuikSand

04-13-2008, 08:54 AM

I'll give this a whirl - 60 seems a tough limit in that case!

One thing... I'm using 60 for a certain level of challenge, but it's up to you what you want to do with your own team. My whole idea here was that the annual AP budget would be the global difficulty variable, set where it makes your game the most interesting. I've been using 60 as my own starting point, but that's not necessarily a magic number (though so far for me, it seems to provide a challenge without making it impossible to field a full team).

But if you'd prefer to use 65 or 70 or some other number, have at it.

QuikSand

04-16-2008, 09:21 AM

So, I'm playing a solo career under these rules. I went empty cupboard in a OPU, which makes for an imperfect fit for the first few years, but I'm into year six now and am starting to get to the real decisions. I don't plan to write up a dynasty report or anything, but I am finding that my own tendencies are taking hold. I'm doing pretty much the same thing every year, which troubles me a bit.

So far, here's what I imagine me doing just about every season with my "all out" team playing under a 60 AP limit:

-take whatever staff i can get for zero AP forever
-never modify training camp
-spend the 10AP to use custom gameplans every year
-never use the open-ended FA contract option
-never use the open-ended renegotiation option
-never make any meaningful trades

Now, maybe this is just an expression of my preferences, and that isn't necessarily bad. But my overall view is that the AP system is a way to put back on the table everything that we otherwise wouldn't do. And if every time I play "all out" I end up doing the same thing... then it's failing me in that respect.

Anyway... I just ran a draft, and was unhappy with the players available with my early picks, so I traded out from rounds 1 and 2 into the following year. That should cause me an AP crunch next season, but in an effort to go "all out" I want to see how it affects the team (at least for now, when I'm still way under the cap and have a nice AP cushion as a result).

Front Office Midget

05-09-2008, 12:11 AM

My friends and I are trying this out in our league.

What about signing veteran's in Late Free Agency?

Also, we're not clear on what this means:

2 – Offer FA player a three-year minsal contract

QuikSand

05-09-2008, 07:34 AM

Well, my thinking with this list was:

Late Free Agency
5 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency
4 – Sign a FA player in 2nd or 3rd year in league
3 – Sign a FA player in his 4th year in league
2 – Sign a FA rookie player
1 – Offer any other FA player his requested contract
1 – Offer any other FA player a one year contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

That this was the entire list of things that you could do in late free agency. So, if you want to sign a veteran during late free agency, you have two options:

1 – Offer any other FA player his requested contract
1 – Offer any other FA player a one year contract

...I deliberately left off the idea of a wide-open multi-year contract for veterans (after all, for any of those guys, you have already had 12 stages of chances to sign them) but I guess if it's somehow important to your league to enable them, maybe that could reasonably be a 2AP transaction.

If you're not sure what I mean by "minsal" -- I mean for each year of the deal, the player gets the lowest possible salary (you can shortcut to this by doing one up-click from en empty offer box), and then just the minimum bonus required to get him to consider the deal.

Hope that helps.

AlexB

05-09-2008, 02:11 PM

Well, my thinking with this list was:

That this was the entire list of things that you could do in late free agency. So, if you want to sign a veteran during late free agency, you have two options:

1 – Offer any other FA player his requested contract
1 – Offer any other FA player a one year contract

...I deliberately left off the idea of a wide-open multi-year contract for veterans (after all, for any of those guys, you have already had 12 stages of chances to sign them) but I guess if it's somehow important to your league to enable them, maybe that could reasonably be a 2AP transaction.

If you're not sure what I mean by "minsal" -- I mean for each year of the deal, the player gets the lowest possible salary (you can shortcut to this by doing one up-click from en empty offer box), and then just the minimum bonus required to get him to consider the deal.

Hope that helps.

I've been using this as well in SP - this is one of the grey areas for me that makes me feel I'm 'cheating the system' a little. Often in LFA a veteran guy will ask for just a one year deal, and given the fact that repeating an action more than 3 times means +1 AP, most LFA signings could be either/or - so I end up carrying out the same action up to 6 times but at no added AP cost...

Another work around is by trading a high pick for just a little below, plus multiple 6th & 7th round picks, you could get lots of role players and back ups essentially for free: the 1 AP for intitiating a trade is cancelled out by the reduction in AP for slightly pick, and the late picks are basically free.

Overall I like it, just not when I 4 AP + 2 AP in the first year for a 6th year FA All-pro DE who then drops to 57/57 after camp!

QuikSand

05-09-2008, 02:58 PM

Overall I like it, just not when I 4 AP + 2 AP in the first year for a 6th year FA All-pro DE who then drops to 57/57 after camp!

Are you using a 60 AP budget? That seems like a good spot for me, but I don't know about everyone. In theory, there's nothing magic about that number, of course.

AlexB

05-09-2008, 03:55 PM

Are you using a 60 AP budget? That seems like a good spot for me, but I don't know about everyone. In theory, there's nothing magic about that number, of course.

Yeah, UI've been on 60 AP budget. Don't get a massive amount of time to play games any more, so only just done my 2nd draft - 1st year I only spent 59 points and found it pretty comfortable, even with replacing 2 staff in contract, so 2nd year got overconfident and hit FA harder - now have spent 65 points going into pre-season! So now have to do a couple of cap cuts, or maybe even allow the AI to do depth charts, but I really do not want to do that...

I can get to 60 with cap cuts I think (by getting rid of the +2 AP for 5% players), but am worried about future years...

It adds a twist. The all pro DE cost me $50m, but on a flat contract, set with the 1st year at 9.9999% of year 1 cap value ($29.08m salary & $20m bonus over 4 years to fit the flat contract). I also blew 4 other points on a bid for another DE that I didn't even get, was on a cheaper deal, and didn't drop in ability!

60 is a tough target, but doable - certainly makes you think a little more.

Front Office Midget

05-10-2008, 01:38 PM

Well, my thinking with this list was:

That this was the entire list of things that you could do in late free agency. So, if you want to sign a veteran during late free agency, you have two options:

1 – Offer any other FA player his requested contract
1 – Offer any other FA player a one year contract

...I deliberately left off the idea of a wide-open multi-year contract for veterans (after all, for any of those guys, you have already had 12 stages of chances to sign them) but I guess if it's somehow important to your league to enable them, maybe that could reasonably be a 2AP transaction.

If you're not sure what I mean by "minsal" -- I mean for each year of the deal, the player gets the lowest possible salary (you can shortcut to this by doing one up-click from en empty offer box), and then just the minimum bonus required to get him to consider the deal.

Hope that helps.

Ah thanks. I suspected that was what a minsal contract was, but did not want to assume, and I'm not always up on contract lingo.

Thanks for the suggestion on late free agency. We often are fairly active in late free agency, so we might implement that idea, or a different idea.

We cut out a lot of the rules- drafting, trading, and are mainly using the action points for free agency, contracts, etc. and it seems to be going well. It gives us more variety in our tactics than when we were just using house rules and each making the same amount of contract offers, so giving us more fun.

This was a really good idea overall, thanks Quik.

DeltaWhiskey

05-30-2008, 08:13 AM

I'm something of an infrequent SP who has always played by a set of informal house rules which were based loosely on what I perceive to be the real world ownership style of the team I manage (e.g. high value on drafting and developing players, less value on FA market).

The Action Point system is awesome as it codifies things and prevents me from cheating (sort of - more in a moment) when I get frustrated w/ the poor performance of my team and am tempted to sign 50 stud free agents.

Anyhow, having now used the Action Point system in a new dynasty, 1st season, I have the following comments/thoughts:

1. B/C I'm a poor planner, it looks like I've overspent for the first season, so I've decided, it's okay to go into debt, which has to be repaid next season.

2. This has led me to think of the Action Points as the expense account the owner provides to conduct business. I think $10K per point is about right, as $60K seems like the right amount to spend conducting 60 interviews (e.g. medical assessments, travel costs, wineing and dining, etc). So by going over this year, it's going to cost next year, but if I was solid in my actions this year, I may be okay.

3. Next, based on the above, I've decided that Action Points can be even more fluid and dynamic. I liked the idea someone mentioned earlier about tying Action Points to season final grades. I haven't decided which grade to use or whether or not use the grade as the actual number or as some sort of modifier from the original 60 (e.g. split the difference, divide by 10 and add/subract to/from 60, etc.)

All of the above creates a little more of "relationship" with ownership. It also got me thinking and made me realize that if someone were so inclined, the cost in various categories could be tweaked to mimic real world owners. For example, want to work w/ Dan Schneider? Interviewing 60 players now costs 10+ points, offer a FA and unrestricted contract only costs 2 or 3, etc. Once you have these in a spreadsheet, it's easy. Seems within an MP league, one could generate a variety of owners.

QuikSand

05-30-2008, 08:20 AM

Glad you are enjoying this... and I totally embrace the notion that the AP system could just be used as a springboard for some further house rules concepts, like you describe. I doubt there's a one-size-fits-all model to be used in that regard, but I'm glad the framework seems to be serving you well.

Feel free to flesh out your ideas or usage here if you like -- you might get some more feedback on the specifics, if you're interested.

Caratacus

05-31-2008, 02:02 AM

I've also been working on a system based around this using the player potential rating instead of APs. My thinking behind this is that it's to easy to sign highly rated players on very low contracts and also it will cost you heavily to sign a highly rated player in free agency.

I've also been trying to factor in players personalities using their "Play to Win" ratings and their "Personality" rating. For example a player with above 80 play to win who is in the last year of his contract may (depending on a dice roll) refuse to sign an extension if you failed to post a winning record in the previous season.

Ben E Lou

08-23-2008, 12:34 PM

In order for me to keep from having to track these each season, I've come up with AP-based House rules. The following rules pretty closely approximate spending 60 AP per season, with far less tracking...

Staff Hiring
All staff must be hired to 5-year deals.
No replacing staff under contract.
If a staff position in open in the third week, a requested offer may be given. Franchise/Summer/FA1:1
Franchise tag may be used, but it must be on a player with loyalty >0, not on an angry or worse player, and never for consecutive years.
Summer league player must be from fourth round or later.
I may offer renegotiations to three players per year, but for requested amounts only.
I may sign up to two of my RFAs to their requested multi-year contracts.
I may sign up to three of my RFAs to their requested one-year contracts. Early Free Agency
I may offer one flat contract with at least 50% bonus per year in early free agency.
I may offer up to three 8yr+ players who are requested no-bonus deals their requested contract. Trading
No Trading. Rookie Draft
No interviews. Late Free Agency..
One undrafted rookie per year may be signed to a contract during late free agency. Training Camp
Default training camp settings only.
No more than 53 players carried to camp. In-Season
No changing the game plan during the season.
AI will control all depth charts.
Injury rate is 200
One signing of any rookie FA per year to replace an IR player.
No other in-season signings unless necessary to maintain legal roster, and those will be of the lowest-rated rookie at a given position. Salary Cap
At the beginning of the season, I must have 5% of the cap unused.
I'm trying these out in this dynasty thread (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=62880) starting with today's posts.

cmp66

08-25-2008, 11:22 AM

Just curious, but how much more difficult does it make it if you use the game generated offensive and defensive gameplans? I would assume you are equivalent to the CPU teams at that point. You could still control the depth charts.

I have not been playing the game that long, but I have been using the generated gameplans and I would imagine using the custom defensive and offensive gameplans would provide a big boost.

Ben E Lou

08-25-2008, 11:25 AM

There's the "difficulty" versus "fun" factor at work there. Yes, it increases difficulty a bit, but I have fun tailoring a game plan to my personnel, or acquiring personnel to fit my system.

Bobble

09-05-2008, 10:09 AM

Couple of thoughts:

- I could see the record-keeping being a lot easier if I just had a cup of 60 pennies on my desk. Every "point" spent is a penny removed.

- Have you considered giving up some certainty to increase difficulty? Again stealing from board games, spending APs only gives you a CHANCE to do the task you want. Imagine it as a meddling owner. Spend my 6 APs to draft the guy I want at 1.3. Say there's a 50% chance (roll dice, flip coin) that Jerry Jones says no to drafting that particular guy. So now I have to spend, say, half that again to make my second choice for that 1.3 pick. So 3 points to take my second choice. If Jerry says no again, it's 0 points to make my third choice at that pick.

It offers the chance that the guys you know are going to be good still slip through your calculating fingers.

Some of the other choices could be done somewhat similarly. Spend 5 points to carry 70 players into camp. Jerry says no so you take the next lower point cost. Spend 5 but only get to take 60 players into camp.

The goal here is to throw uncertainty into your careful calculations thus making it harder for you to work all the angles. You never know how many points your REALLY going to have to spend to get to do what you want.

QuikSand

03-07-2009, 06:54 AM

A couple new thoughts on this...

-I think when I have some time to really think about it, I will likely revisit the cost of signing an undrafted free agent. Now that the popularity tell has been removed from the game, I think I can reduce that cost substantially, maybe to zero.

-Some people here posted the idea of using AP as a carryover from year to year, allowing an overspending in one year to be made up by some lean years later, or the reverse. I'm intrigued by that idea, with a cost of course. I think you should pay (in AP) for that flexibility, like you don't get to carry over your first 2 AP unused, or overspending costs you 2AP for every year you are out of balance.

QuikSand

03-14-2009, 02:29 PM

Rule changes:

Early Free Agency

NEW
1 – Offer FA player a one year, no bonus contract

RATIONALE
I want to have one more “cheap” method to sign a free agent, and I like this as a balance. One year means no renegotiating, and no bonus means if he’s any good, you’ll have to outbid real contenders offering bonus, so you’ll have to overspend in the short term. If the guy is not being pursued, then this isn’t likely much different than the current option to offer a FA his requested contract for 1 AP also.

Late Free Agency

OLD
2 – Sign a FA rookie player

NEW
1 – Sign a FA rookie player

RATIONALE
I think with the in-game changes to popularity, there’s a greatly lessened ability to cherrypick promising rookie free agents, which was the motivation for the high cost here originally. A cost of 1 AP makes this much more in play, which I think is fair.

QuikSand

03-14-2009, 02:54 PM

Added new section :

Carryover of Action Points
2 – Cost to carry over remaining AP from one year to the next
1 – Cost to “borrow” 3 AP from the following year (+2 AP now, -3 next year)

RedKingGold

03-14-2009, 03:19 PM

Quik, is this system based on a total of 60 points?

I'm interested in using this system to start-up a new career and like your suggested values.

QuikSand

03-14-2009, 05:07 PM

One more addition...

Action Point Values for FOF House Rules

Staff Hiring
3 – Scout or head coach who was hired with no contract restrictions
2 – Scout or head coach who was offered his requested contract before stage 3
0 – Scout or head coach who was offered his requested contract in stage 3
1 – Replacing scout or head coach currently under contract
2 – Hiring coordinator with no contract restrictions
1 – Hiring coordinator on requested contract before stage 3
0 – Hiring coordinator on requested contract in stage 3
0 – Hiring coordinator at half of his HC request in stage 3
1 – Replacing coordinator currently under contract

Internal Contract Moves
4 – Use franchise tag on player for third consecutive year or more
3 – Use franchise tag on player for second consecutive year
3 – Use franchise tag on player labeled as angry, livid or demanding trade
3 – Use franchise tag on player with loyalty rating of zero
2 – Use franchise tag on any other player
3 – Send former 1st round pick to European league
2 – Send former 2nd or 3rd round pick to European league
1 – Send former 4th or 5th round pick or undrafted rookie to European league
0 – Send former 6th or 7th round pick or former to European league
4 – Sign current player to unrestricted renegotiation
2 – Sign current player to his requested renegotiation
0 – Sign current player to a full or partial capout
2 – Sign RFA player on an unrestricted new contract
1 – Sign RFA player to his requested multi year contract
0 – Sign RFA player to his requested one year contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Early Free Agency
4 – Offer FA player an unrestricted contract
2 – Offer FA player a flat contract with at least 25% bonus
2 – Offer FA player a three-year minsal contract
1 – Offer FA player a one year, no bonus contract
1 – Offer FA player his requested contract
0 – Offer FA player 8th year+ requested contract 1yr no bonus
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses
(Submitting an altered contract to a player already on offer list re-incurs same cost as original offer would have above)

Trading
2 – Initiating trade for player from another team
4 – Initiating trade of player(s) for a 1st round pick or more
2 – Initiating trade of player(s) for 2nd round pick or more
1 – Initiating trade of player(s) for less than 2nd round pick
2 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that fails “fairness test”
1 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that passes “fairness test”
2 – Trading down from Top 10 pick within current draft
1 – Any other trade within current draft
5 – Any trade involving future 1st round pick from another team
2 – Any other trade involving draft picks in future years
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Rookie Draft
6 – Use up to 60 rookie interviews
5 – Use up to 40 rookie interviews
3 – Use up to 20 rookie interviews
6 – Manually use draft pick between 1.1 and 1.5
5 – Manually use draft picks between 1.6 and 1.16
4 – Manually use draft pick between 1.17 and 1.32
3 – Manually use 2nd round draft pick
2 – Manually use 3rd round draft pick
1 – Manually use 4th or 5th round draft pick
0 – Manually use 6th or 7th round draft pick
0 – Cost of allowing scout to select pick in any round
1 – Added cost if player drafted after first round has 2 or more red combines
1 – Added cost if player drafted after first round has 4 or more red + blue combines
-1 – Deduction from positive AP cost for selecting top player on position board

Late Free Agency
5 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency
4 – Sign a FA player in 2nd or 3rd year in league
3 – Sign a FA player in his 4th year in league
1 – Sign a FA rookie player
1 – Offer any other FA player his requested contract
1 – Offer any other FA player a one year contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Training Camp
3 – Use custom training camp settings
0 – Use default training camp settings
5 – Carry up to 70 players into training camp
3 – Carry up to 60 players into training camp
2 – Carry up to 57 players into training camp
1 – Carry up to 55 players into training camp
0 – Carry up to 53 players into training camp

In-Season

10 – Implement custom gameplans at start of season
8 – Implement custom GP, with unchanged offensive gameplan from FOFC library
2 – Allow unlimited changes to offensive gameplan during season
2 – Allow unlimited changes to defensive gameplan during season
0 – Implement staff-controlled gameplans for full season
4 – Allow unlimited changes to depth chart during season
0 – Implement staff-controlled depth chart for full season
6 – Set injury rate at 100
3 – Set injury rate at 150
0 – Set injury rate at 200
3 – Sign veteran free agent to replace player placed onto IR
1 – Sign rookie free agent to replace player placed onto IR
0 – Sign lowest-rated rookie free agent to maintain legal roster

Salary Cap
15 – Use entire salary cap
12 – Leave 5% of cap unused as of start of season
9 – Leave 10% of cap unused as of start of season
6 – Leave 15% of cap unused as of start of season
3 – Leave 20% of cap unused as of start of season
0 – Leave 25% of cap unused as of start of season
3 – Each player on roster for week 1 occupying over 10% of cap
2 – Each player on roster for week 1 occupying 5-10% of cap

Carryover of Action Points
2 – Cost to carry over remaining AP from one year to the next
1 – Cost to “borrow” 3 AP from the following year (+2 AP now, -3 next year)

Revision notes

3.27.08 substantially revised by QS and incorporated into “Testing My Limits” thread
3.28.08 Increased age of “free” FA signees to 8th year, added 4AP cost of manual depth chart control
3.29.08 Rephrasing and technical changes by QS
3.29.08 Allowed discount for using unchanged Off GP from library (per SD)
3.29.08 Added modest sliding scale for sending player to Europe (per SD)
3.29.08 Added additional cost increment for transactions being used repeatedly
3.29.08 Clarify cost for taking rookie not on overall top page is as by Grade or Adj
3.30.08 Revise draft AP system, AP based on location, skills, with top-guy discount
3.14.09 Reduce cost of signing URFA from 2 to 1
3.14.09 Allow one year no bonus FA signing for 1AP
3.14 09 Establish costs for carryover and borrowing of AP year to year

QuikSand

03-14-2009, 05:14 PM

Quik, is this system based on a total of 60 points?

I'm interested in using this system to start-up a new career and like your suggested values.

I have been using 60 AP per season as my sweet spot, and it seems to work pretty well. When building a roster, I don't use all my cap and I don't invest much in the gameplan, so I can make a lot of FA moves within the limit. Later on, when I'm "maintaining" the team, things get a lot more challenging. For me, 60 AP works pretty well.

Many people have offered that this system "works" but seems complicated. I cna agree with that, but I don't find it so hard once I get a rhythm. Basically, I start each year with a "framework" of what I expect that year to look like... basically plug in what I expect to do that costs AP (custom gameplans, rookie interviews, etc), add in a reasonable value I expect my draft to cost (based on the slot of my top pick, mostly) and work backward toward how many AP I have to spend in early free agency. Here's an excerpt from an old set of notes I made to myself doing this...

2010

24 players on contract now (after cutting G Rondell Patterson, who threatened to be a 5% player with no value), we have work to do under our AP limits. And we have an extra first round pick, so our AP cost there will be heightened.

AP planning:
0 – Hire all staff during last stage
6 – Use up to 60 rookie interviews
14 – Use allocation of draft picks
10 – Implement custom gameplans at start of season
0 – Implement staff-controlled depth chart for full season
3 – Set injury rate at 150
0 – Leave 25% of cap unused as of start of season
--
27 AP remaining for roster moves

1 – Sign RFA player to his requested multi year contract (LB Irwin)
1 – Sign RFA player to his requested multi year contract (G Cassity)

2 – Offer FA player a three-year minsal contract (NT Shannon)
2 – Offer FA player a three-year minsal contract (TE Wilcox)
2 – Offer FA player a three-year minsal contract (

0 – Sign RFA player to his requested one year contract (WR Kalista)
0 – Sign RFA player to his requested one year contract (LT Herndon)
0 – Sign RFA player to his requested one year contract (RB Barlup)
1 – Sign RFA player to his requested one year contract (QB Burton)
1 – Sign RFA player to his requested one year contract (P Willis)
1 – Sign RFA player to his requested one year contract (K Bernard)
1 – Sign RFA player to his requested one year contract (WR Hodges)

2 – Offer FA player a flat contract with at least 25% bonus (DE Reed)
2 – Offer FA player a flat contract with at least 25% bonus (RB Gillespie)
2 – Offer FA player a flat contract with at least 25% bonus (S Bunkley)

Signed away: LB Marcus Devine, G Preston Davis

Pick Pos Name Grd Adj 4TBAJP Dev O/U Scout APCost Comments
1.07 RT Dwayne Weber (LT) 6.7 7.4 +!!+ 36% OR 43/80 5-1 Anchor player for SM team
1.12 RG Henry Copenhauer (LG) 7.0 6.7 !+!!+ 20% UR 36/75 5-1 Anchor player for SM team
3.14 ILB Archie Duran 4.9 4.8 ++ +- 42% OR 16/39 2 Affinty, solid combines
4.13 WR Luke Noisy 4.7 4.9 ++ --! 31% OR 25/49 1-1 PDill 66!, intriguing bars
5.12 QB Brett Donovan 4.9 5.6 ++ +- 44% NA 19/44 1-1 Standard stab in dark at QB
6.11 RB Howie Donaldson 4.3 4.6 -+ 53% VU 28/36 0 Scout pick at RB
7.14 DE K.C. Lorch 4.3 4.7 +! + 26% NA 6/14 0 Affinity possible creeper

2 – Sign current player to his requested renegotiation (holdout DE Murray)

…with a cheaper than expected draft, we have 7 AP left to use.

1 – Offer any other FA player his requested contract (LB Isaac Gottman)
1 – Offer any other FA player his requested contract (QB Kendrick Casper)
1 – Offer any other FA player his requested contract (DE Donald Buchler)
1 – Offer any other FA player a one year contract (CB Bernie Caldwell)
1 – Offer any other FA player a one year contract (T Ricky Stai)
1 – Offer any other FA player a one year contract (WR Kendall Tetreault)

I imagine for some who have no interest in note-taking, this looks terrible and tedious. For me (where I am a note-taker by habit anyway) this isn't much more than I'd ordinarily do, so it's just a bit more structured. Those notes above basically take my team from the start of the offseason through training camp, if it's not clear from the references -- so that's the bulk of my offseason's discussion, right there.

QuikSand

04-28-2009, 10:09 AM

So, fueled by the NFL draft, I was thinking about another team-building career. I'm looking at the AP system, and trying to find a value to use to try to promote some more serious challenge than usual. Playing with 60 AP/yr, I tend to find myself building up toward long term success, albeit with some difficulty.

I'm thinking this system is basically good enough to use as a framework for a true "challenge" career. But I want to think through how I might use my points in a typical season with an even more restricted budget. If I decide in advance that I want to use custom gameplans, then how would I likely build my teams with 60AP, 55AP, and 50AP?

Hmmm...

My typical season from above, using 60AP, was:

AP planning:
0 – Hire all staff during last stage
6 – Use up to 60 rookie interviews
14 – Use allocation of draft picks
10 – Implement custom gameplans at start of season
0 – Implement staff-controlled depth chart for full season
3 – Set injury rate at 150
0 – Leave 25% of cap unused as of start of season
--
27 AP remaining for roster moves

If I needed to cutback 5-10 AP from that (given a team that is already fairly well built but with many contracts expired) then my guess is I'd go with some combination of:

-reduce or eliminate rookie interviews
-maybe make some longer term FA contract offers (to reduce future re-signing costs)
-rely more on the "top player left" draft pick for saving AP there

I'm thinking 50 will create a horrendous challenge just to field a semi-legitimate team... might be right up my alley.

QuikSand

10-13-2009, 01:56 PM

Given my experiences thus far in my recent AP-driven career (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=74861), I think I have a change to make here.

Currently:

Late Free Agency
1 – Sign a FA rookie player

Proposed:

Late Free Agency
2 - Sign a FA rookie player to a 2yr contract or longer
1 – Sign a FA rookie player to a 1yr contract

Rationale:

The goal here is to maintain a balance of incentives. In several cases, there's a split between a cheap (1 AP) means to lock up a guy for one year, versus a more expensive (2 AP) means to lock the same guy up for three years -- that's the split I have created in early free agency for minsal veteran players (other than the freebie old guys). I think that sort of balance here makes sense, too.

Also...I am finding that I am rarely so cap-strapped as to make the added salary necessary to sign a rookie for 3 yrs to be troublesome -- so why not do it with every guy? And at that point, I run into the competing incentives between late round draft picks, and after-draft rookie signings. I *want* late round picks to feel like they have value -- and bumping up the AP cost seems like a reasonable way to do it.

Now, I'm contemplating whether these costs should be 1/2 or 0/1. When the "after the third use" rule is included as a backdrop, I think three free rookie signings doesn't sound bad. Still hedging there... for now I'm making it 1/2 on my official list.

QuikSand

07-05-2010, 06:25 AM

Was giving this some thought recently, and now I'm basically convinced that signing undrafted rookies really is no longer the "end around" that it once was. It's still a fair bit cheaper under the salary cap, but the AP rules governing trades seem to curb any temptation to do silly things to try to take advantage of that.

So, my thinking now is basically to make the rule say:

Late Free Agency
0 – Sign a FA rookie player

And along similar lines:

Training Camp
2 – Carry up to 70 players into training camp
1 – Carry up to 60 players into training camp
0 – Carry up to 53 players into training camp

If it costs something, eventually, so sign these guys... then I don't see much point in making it too costly to keep them through camp. I think this still needs balancing... maybe the undrafted rookies should be free to sign, period (no escalation after the first 3) and this section should become the only cost to doing so. Not certain here.

QuikSand

07-05-2010, 06:31 AM

One more thought that I think is worth doing here:

Currently, rule reads:

Early Free Agency
4 – Offer FA player an unrestricted contract
2 – Offer FA player a flat contract with at least 25% bonus
2 – Offer FA player a three-year minsal contract
1 – Offer FA player a one year, no bonus contract
1 – Offer FA player his requested contract
0 – Offer FA player 8th year+ requested contract 1yr no bonus
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses
(Submitting an altered contract to a player already on offer list re-incurs same cost as original offer would have above)

I'm now thinking:

Early Free Agency
4 – Offer FA player an unrestricted contract
2 – Offer FA player a flat contract with at least 25% bonus
2 – Offer FA player a three-year minsal contract
1 – Offer FA player a one year, no bonus contract
1 – Offer FA player his requested contract
0 – Offer FA player 8th year+ requested contract 1yr no bonus
1 - Submitting an altered contract to a player, within same category above
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

I find that I don't think I have *ever* gotten into a free agent bidding war using the AP system, and that's something of a shame. Most of the blame is on FOF, since I have a very high likelihood of landing any player I pursue since the bidding is so predictable in most cases. But this at least makes it viable, especially with a big-bid, top-grade player, to get in there and up my ante if I'm in jeopardy of losing out.

QuikSand

07-05-2010, 09:05 AM

AP planning:
0 – Hire all staff during last stage
6 – Use up to 60 rookie interviews
14 – Use allocation of draft picks
10 – Implement custom gameplans at start of season
0 – Implement staff-controlled depth chart for full season
3 – Set injury rate at 150
0 – Leave 25% of cap unused as of start of season
--
27 AP remaining for roster moves

Since I posted, and ten quoted this above, I'll use it again as an anchor for another observation.

In my mind, the perfect AP system puts pretty much everything on the table. You should at least be willing to *think about* everything that can happen in-game -- even "cheats" like taking advantage of the AI with future first round picks, for instance. The point is that the AP system ought to properly balance such things, and eliminate the advantage for doing so. In theory, parlaying your 1.30 next year into 1.4 just by dealing with a weak team is too easy to do without house rules -- so the AP system requires you to pay both at the time of the trade, and then again at the time you use the gained pick. In concept, that makes doing such a deal possible, but no longer an obvious game-the-system situation.

The problem, then, with a system like this is when I/we end up doing the same thing every time. And the "plan" above is basically a fair representation of what I probably would do with pretty much every single team I try to play "all out" under the AP system. I will basically resort to all these defaults in just about every season with just about every team:

0 – Hire all staff during last stage
10 – Implement custom gameplans at start of season
0 – Implement staff-controlled depth chart for full season
3 – Set injury rate at 150
0 – Leave 25% of cap unused as of start of season

Basically, as it stands, I'm really never going to consider using my full salary cap -- the 15 AP cost is just too high (even before considering the effects of individual players that get us there). The most I will consider is occasionally inching up a notch or so when things get especially tight, or when I have AP to burn one year.

Same goes with staff hiring - even spending something like 4-6 AP on my staff seems dumb to me, so I basically never do.

And the depth chart, to be candid, is something that I have given up on pretty completely when playing solo FOF -- it's just too tedious to mess around with it game by game, so I am basically just content to turn it over to the staff, and step in only when there's an illegal roster issue due to injury.

All this points to the conclusion that I have an AP imbalance. Nothing should be completely out of mind if this system works perfectly. I don't have a serious idea how to make this work, but this is my open thinking...

NawlinsFan

07-07-2010, 05:44 PM

QS..... do you have an updated values list reflecting all of the changes you have tried and/or discussed? Also, do you have a preformatted template you use for tracking expenditures?

QuikSand

10-17-2010, 08:11 PM

Action Point Values for FOF House Rules

Staff Hiring
3 – Scout or head coach who was hired with no contract restrictions
2 – Scout or head coach who was offered his requested contract before stage 3
0 – Scout or head coach who was offered his requested contract in stage 3
1 – Replacing scout or head coach currently under contract
2 – Hiring coordinator with no contract restrictions
1 – Hiring coordinator on requested contract before stage 3
0 – Hiring coordinator on requested contract in stage 3
0 – Hiring coordinator at half of his HC request in stage 3
1 – Replacing coordinator currently under contract

Internal Contract Moves
4 – Use franchise tag on player for third consecutive year or more
3 – Use franchise tag on player for second consecutive year
3 – Use franchise tag on player labeled as angry, livid or demanding trade
3 – Use franchise tag on player with loyalty rating of zero
2 – Use franchise tag on any other player
3 – Send former 1st round pick to European league
2 – Send former 2nd or 3rd round pick to European league
1 – Send former 4th or 5th round pick or undrafted rookie to European league
0 – Send former 6th or 7th round pick or former to European league
4 – Sign current player to unrestricted renegotiation
2 – Sign current player to his requested renegotiation
0 – Sign current player to a full or partial capout
2 – Sign RFA player on an unrestricted new contract
1 – Sign RFA player to his requested multi year contract
0 – Sign RFA player to his requested one year contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Early Free Agency
4 – Offer FA player an unrestricted contract
2 – Offer FA player a flat contract with at least 25% bonus
2 – Offer FA player a three-year minsal contract
1 – Offer FA player a one year, no bonus contract
1 – Offer FA player his requested contract
0 – Offer FA player 8th year+ requested contract 1yr no bonus
1 - Submitting an altered contract to a player, within same category above
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Trading
2 – Initiating trade for player from another team
4 – Initiating trade of player(s) for a 1st round pick or more
2 – Initiating trade of player(s) for 2nd round pick or more
1 – Initiating trade of player(s) for less than 2nd round pick
2 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that fails “fairness test”
1 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that passes “fairness test”
2 – Trading down from Top 10 pick within current draft
1 – Any other trade within current draft
5 – Any trade involving future 1st round pick from another team
2 – Any other trade involving draft picks in future years
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Rookie Draft
6 – Use up to 60 rookie interviews
5 – Use up to 40 rookie interviews
3 – Use up to 20 rookie interviews
6 – Manually use draft pick between 1.1 and 1.5
5 – Manually use draft pick between 1.6 and 1.16
4 – Manually use draft pick between 1.17 and 1.32
3 – Manually use 2nd round draft pick
2 – Manually use 3rd round draft pick
1 – Manually use 4th or 5th round draft pick
0 – Manually use 6th or 7th round draft pick
0 – Cost of allowing scout to select pick in any round
1 – Added cost if player drafted after first round has 2 or more red combines
1 – Added cost if player drafted after first round has 4 or more red + blue combines
-1 – Deduction from positive AP cost for selecting top player on position board

Late Free Agency
5 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency
4 – Sign a FA player in 2nd or 3rd year in league
3 – Sign a FA player in his 4th year in league
1 – Sign a FA rookie player to 2 or 3 yr contract
0 – Sign a FA rookie player to 1yr contract
1 – Offer any other FA player his requested contract
1 – Offer any other FA player a one year contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Training Camp
3 – Use custom training camp settings
0 – Use default training camp settings
2 – Carry up to 70 players into training camp
1 – Carry up to 60 players into training camp
0 – Carry up to 53 players into training camp

In-Season

10 – Implement custom gameplans at start of season
6 – Implement custom GP, with unchanged offensive gameplan from FOFC library
2 – Allow unlimited changes to offensive gameplan during season
2 – Allow unlimited changes to defensive gameplan during season
0 – Implement staff-controlled gameplans for full season
4 – Allow unlimited changes to depth chart during season
0 – Implement staff-controlled depth chart for full season
6 – Set injury rate at 100
3 – Set injury rate at 150
0 – Set injury rate at 200
3 – Sign veteran free agent to replace player placed onto IR
1 – Sign rookie free agent to replace player placed onto IR
0 – Sign lowest-rated rookie free agent to maintain legal roster

Salary Cap
15 – Use entire salary cap
12 – Leave 5% of cap unused as of start of season
9 – Leave 10% of cap unused as of start of season
6 – Leave 15% of cap unused as of start of season
3 – Leave 20% of cap unused as of start of season
0 – Leave 25% of cap unused as of start of season
3 – Each player on roster for week 1 occupying over 10% of cap
2 – Each player on roster for week 1 occupying 5-10% of cap

Carryover of Action Points
2 – Cost to carry over remaining AP from one year to the next
1 – Cost to “borrow” 3 AP from the following year (+2 AP now, -3 next year)

Revision notes

3.27.08 substantially revised by QS and incorporated into “Testing My Limits” thread
3.28.08 Increased age of “free” FA signees to 8th year, added 4AP cost of manual depth chart control
3.29.08 Rephrasing and technical changes by QS
3.29.08 Allowed discount for using unchanged Off GP from library (per SD)
3.29.08 Added modest sliding scale for sending player to Europe (per SD)
3.29.08 Added additional cost increment for transactions being used repeatedly
3.29.08 Clarify cost for taking rookie not on overall top page is as by Grade or Adj
3.30.08 Revise draft AP system, AP based on location, skills, with top-guy discount
3.14.09 Reduce cost of signing URFA from 2 to 1
3.14.09 Allow one year no bonus FA signing for 1AP
3.14 09 Establish costs for carryover and borrowing of AP year to year
10.17.10 Reduced cost for revised early FA bid to 1 new AP
10.17.10 Reduced cost for using library offensive gameplan
10.17.10 Reduced cost for carrying extra players into training camp
10.17.10 Reduced cost for signing undrafted rookie free agents

QuikSand

10-17-2010, 08:14 PM

So, fueled by the NFL draft, I was thinking about another team-building career. I'm looking at the AP system, and trying to find a value to use to try to promote some more serious challenge than usual. Playing with 60 AP/yr, I tend to find myself building up toward long term success, albeit with some difficulty.

I'm thinking this system is basically good enough to use as a framework for a true "challenge" career. But I want to think through how I might use my points in a typical season with an even more restricted budget. If I decide in advance that I want to use custom gameplans, then how would I likely build my teams with 60AP, 55AP, and 50AP?

Hmmm...

My typical season from above, using 60AP, was:

(snipped)

If I needed to cutback 5-10 AP from that (given a team that is already fairly well built but with many contracts expired) then my guess is I'd go with some combination of:

-reduce or eliminate rookie interviews
-maybe make some longer term FA contract offers (to reduce future re-signing costs)
-rely more on the "top player left" draft pick for saving AP there

I'm thinking 50 will create a horrendous challenge just to field a semi-legitimate team... might be right up my alley.

Thinking about doing this with the latest NFL setup, taking one of the weakest teams in the NFL and moving forward into 2011 with only 50 AP per year. Buffalo, Carolina, and Cleveland all seem like candidates (I don't want a team with a big young QB).

QuikSand

11-15-2010, 03:12 PM

So... most of the time I spent fiddling around with this concept, I was more or less using 60 AP per year as my budget, and trying to build a good challenge out of that.

As mentioned above, I started a career (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=79618) using the new NFL as a base, and took over Buffalo. After a couple years dicking around, we have built an emerging juggernaut, which seems set up to be a "power team" for the next few seasons. All with a 50 AP per year budget. I even had extra AP to carry over, for lack of things to do with all of them.

Maybe I have benefited from some short-term things, but I really thought it would be tougher at 50 AP than it seems to be.

As always, I am finding when I play "all out" that there's the FOF game, and then the meta-game of seeing what rules appear to be weaknesses (I find this out by what bullshit stunts I tend to pull when I am trying my best to win within the rules). Right now, that seems to be my strategy to trade out of my 4th and 5th round picks and add more 6th and 7th round picks -- the AP cost of the trade offsets the AP I would spend to "wisely" use the picks, more or less, and then I get extra multi-year guys in the following season. not much drop in quality between rounds 4/5 and 6/7, to me.

jzicc

11-16-2010, 03:32 PM

Hey QuiK -- Are you settling on 47 points as a new "sweet spot"

QuikSand

11-16-2010, 07:26 PM

I have not yet resigned myself to needing a change in the budget. Actually, where my only 50 AP team is right now is still fairly "young" in its development -- only one guy is generating the AP cost for having a high salary, for example, and staying at 20-25% below the salary cap has not been a serious problem for me. Over time, I reckon both of those will change, and I will have more serious problems on my hands.

QuikSand

11-27-2010, 09:07 AM

Just documenting a weakness that I think I'm finding in my current attempt at playing "all out" under the AP system. With an already-good team drafting in slot 30, I just spent 5 AP to make this trade with a pretty bad team:

My late 2,3,4,5 and next year's 1st
Their 6 and next year's 1,2,6,7

Since the AP cost of using those 2,3,4,5 picks was probably going to be roughly 4-7 AP anyway, spending 5 AP to make this move doesn't actually have a serious AP cost, unless I really needed those mid-round draftees.

I suspect that any time my team is good and pretty well stocked, a deal like this is a no-brainer. In a perfect AP system, *nothing* ought to be a no-brainer... and the fact that this is more or less an exploit of weak AI (it not recognizing the proper delta between the valuation of those future 1sts) makes this reek a bit.

Thinking I may need to hike up the AP cost of dealing for future 1sts, maybe to better deal with the narrow "swap of 1sts" situation like here.

QuikSand

11-28-2010, 09:50 AM

Action Point Values for FOF House Rules

Late Free Agency
5 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency
4 – Sign a FA player in 2nd or 3rd year in league
3 – Sign a FA player in his 4th year in league
1 – Sign a FA rookie player to 2 or 3 yr contract
0 – Sign a FA rookie player to 1yr contract
1 – Offer any other FA player his requested contract
1 – Offer any other FA player a one year contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Thinking this section is probably in need of a rewrite. I think back when I got started with this concept, I was worried that it was too easy to swoop in and pick up pretty high quality 3rd and (especially) 4th year players who were not re-signed by their teams. I saw this as an exploit, to some degree, as the RFA-resigning logic is clearly messed up to some degree -- way to many worthwhile players are left to walk into open free agency after their rookie contracts expire.

With that said, I am finding that I pretty much *never* am willing to sign a guy like this, even if he's only a marginal player -- and there are properly a fair number of marginal guys like that in any season. And if my barometer for problems with the AP system is that some otherwise viable options become non-starters all the time, then this is a failure.

I think the ideal system would allow me to fairly easily pick up low-talent guys that another team simply didn't think were worth much, but who have some attraction for my team -- return skills, an affinity, or whatever. This happens all the time in MP leagues, and in the NFL as well. One team gives up, but another team sees a decent enough fit to move in with a modest offer. That seems fine, and I don't feel like the AP system should make something like that prohibitively costly.

However, FOF doesn't seem to handle the cap well, and it also tends to overlook players with <5 years experience in the Late FA pool. Combining these two things, and there's a legitimate problem, I think. A team in cap trouble (for whatever reason, probably because it stupidly signed an expensive FA at QB who will sit behind a stud starter or something like that) will let a 55/55 rated DE who posted 10 sacks last year walk into free agency for year 4, simply by letting him walk. And then the rest of the league is too often oblivious to the guy's existence, letting my team sign him for something pitiful like 3yrs minsal with the same minsal amount as a bonus stretched across.

My first thought here is that getting that year 4 guy on a one-year contract isn't a massive exploit. That means I'd still need to re-sign him in open free agency (or tag him) to keep him around, and that costs more AP at least (and in theory opens him up to competition). So maybe I could revise this section to read something like:

Late Free Agency
4 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency to an unrestricted contract
2 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency to his requested contract
3 – Sign a new FA player in 2nd or 3rd year in league
1 – Re-sign a former RFA player from your roster to 1yr contract
3 – Sign a new FA player in his 4th year in league to multi-year contract
2 – Sign a new FA player in his 4th year in league to 1yr contract
1 – Sign a FA rookie player to multi-year contract
0 – Sign a FA rookie player to 1yr contract
1 – Offer any other FA player his requested contract
1 – Offer any other FA player a one year contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

I'm stewing on these changes for now. Would welcome any thoughts, as usual. I consider these posts to serve as "peer review."

QuikSand

11-28-2010, 09:55 AM

Action Point Values for FOF House Rules

Rookie Draft
6 – Use up to 60 rookie interviews
5 – Use up to 40 rookie interviews
3 – Use up to 20 rookie interviews
6 – Manually use draft pick between 1.1 and 1.5
5 – Manually use draft pick between 1.6 and 1.16
4 – Manually use draft pick between 1.17 and 1.32
3 – Manually use 2nd round draft pick
2 – Manually use 3rd round draft pick
1 – Manually use 4th or 5th round draft pick
0 – Manually use 6th or 7th round draft pick
0 – Cost of allowing scout to select pick in any round
1 – Added cost if player drafted after first round has 2 or more red combines
1 – Added cost if player drafted after first round has 4 or more red + blue combines
-1 – Deduction from positive AP cost for selecting top player on position board

One more additional tweak I am contemplating here:

1 – Added cost if team has already drafted two or more players in that round

This is intended to counter any draft-stacking strategy designed to skirt the AP system. I have found myself seeking throw-in 6th and 7th round draft picks of late, as I realize that these guys are 3yr roster fillers available for zero AP (though they do cost a bit more cap space than undrafted rookies). Rather than maintain an incentive to totally load up every draft with 6-8-10 late-round guys like this, this AP tweak could allow it to some extent, but make it cost prohibitive after adding an extra pick in any given round.

It would also have some benefits in curbing overloading of anything in particular... going after extra 1st rounders, 2nd rounders, or whatever. Anything that gets your draft skewed to the point of being unrealistic ought to have a cost in this system, and this gets a notch in that direction. (And yes, I know there are specific cases of real NFL teams having multiple picks in one round... this rule isn't saying it's impossible, just that it should be costly as a way of keeping it from being routine by function of incentive)

QuikSand

11-28-2010, 09:56 AM

Re-posting for page convenience

Action Point Values for FOF House Rules

Staff Hiring
3 – Scout or head coach who was hired with no contract restrictions
2 – Scout or head coach who was offered his requested contract before stage 3
0 – Scout or head coach who was offered his requested contract in stage 3
1 – Replacing scout or head coach currently under contract
2 – Hiring coordinator with no contract restrictions
1 – Hiring coordinator on requested contract before stage 3
0 – Hiring coordinator on requested contract in stage 3
0 – Hiring coordinator at half of his HC request in stage 3
1 – Replacing coordinator currently under contract

Internal Contract Moves
4 – Use franchise tag on player for third consecutive year or more
3 – Use franchise tag on player for second consecutive year
3 – Use franchise tag on player labeled as angry, livid or demanding trade
3 – Use franchise tag on player with loyalty rating of zero
2 – Use franchise tag on any other player
3 – Send former 1st round pick to European league
2 – Send former 2nd or 3rd round pick to European league
1 – Send former 4th or 5th round pick or undrafted rookie to European league
0 – Send former 6th or 7th round pick or former to European league
4 – Sign current player to unrestricted renegotiation
2 – Sign current player to his requested renegotiation
0 – Sign current player to a full or partial capout
2 – Sign RFA player on an unrestricted new contract
1 – Sign RFA player to his requested multi year contract
0 – Sign RFA player to his requested one year contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Early Free Agency
4 – Offer FA player an unrestricted contract
2 – Offer FA player a flat contract with at least 25% bonus
2 – Offer FA player a three-year minsal contract
1 – Offer FA player his requested contract
0 – Offer FA player 8th year+ requested contract 1yr no bonus
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses
(Submitting an altered contract to a player already on offer list re-incurs same cost as original offer would have above)

Trading
2 – Initiating trade for player from another team
4 – Initiating trade of player(s) for a 1st round pick or more
2 – Initiating trade of player(s) for 2nd round pick or more
1 – Initiating trade of player(s) for less than 2nd round pick
2 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that fails “fairness test”
1 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that passes “fairness test”
2 – Trading down from Top 10 pick within current draft
1 – Any other trade within current draft
5 – Any trade involving future 1st round pick from another team
2 – Any other trade involving draft picks in future years
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Rookie Draft
6 – Use up to 60 rookie interviews
5 – Use up to 40 rookie interviews
3 – Use up to 20 rookie interviews
6 – Manually use draft pick between 1.1 and 1.5
5 – Manually use draft picks between 1.6 and 1.16
4 – Manually use draft pick between 1.17 and 1.32
3 – Manually use 2nd round draft pick
2 – Manually use 3rd round draft pick
1 – Manually use 4th or 5th round draft pick
0 – Manually use 6th or 7th round draft pick
0 – Cost of allowing scout to select pick in any round
1 – Added cost if player drafted after first round has 2 or more red combines
1 – Added cost if player drafted after first round has 4 or more red + blue combines
-1 – Deduction from positive AP cost for selecting top player on position board

Late Free Agency
5 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency
4 – Sign a FA player in 2nd or 3rd year in league
3 – Sign a FA player in his 4th year in league
2 – Sign a FA rookie player
1 – Offer any other FA player his requested contract
1 – Offer any other FA player a one year contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Training Camp
3 – Use custom training camp settings
0 – Use default training camp settings
5 – Carry up to 70 players into training camp
3 – Carry up to 60 players into training camp
2 – Carry up to 57 players into training camp
1 – Carry up to 55 players into training camp
0 – Carry up to 53 players into training camp

In-Season

10 – Implement custom gameplans at start of season
8 – Implement custom GP, with unchanged offensive gameplan from FOFC library
2 – Allow unlimited changes to offensive gameplan during season
2 – Allow unlimited changes to defensive gameplan during season
0 – Implement staff-controlled gameplans for full season
4 – Allow unlimited changes to depth chart during season
0 – Implement staff-controlled depth chart for full season
6 – Set injury rate at 100
3 – Set injury rate at 150
0 – Set injury rate at 200
3 – Sign veteran free agent to replace player placed onto IR
1 – Sign rookie free agent to replace player placed onto IR
0 – Sign lowest-rated rookie free agent to maintain legal roster

Salary Cap
15 – Use entire salary cap
12 – Leave 5% of cap unused as of start of season
9 – Leave 10% of cap unused as of start of season
6 – Leave 15% of cap unused as of start of season
3 – Leave 20% of cap unused as of start of season
0 – Leave 25% of cap unused as of start of season
3 – Each player on roster for week 1 occupying over 10% of cap
2 – Each player on roster for week 1 occupying 5-10% of cap

Revision notes

3.27.08 substantially revised by QS and incorporated into “Testing My Limits” thread
3.28.08 Increased age of “free” FA signees to 8th year, added 4AP cost of manual depth chart control
3.29.08 Rephrasing and technical changes by QS
3.29.08 Allowed discount for using unchanged Off GP from library (per SD)
3.29.08 Added modest sliding scale for sending player to Europe (per SD)
3.29.08 Added additional cost increment for transactions being used repeatedly
3.29.08 Clarify cost for taking rookie not on overall top page is as by Grade or Adj
3.30.08 Revise draft AP system, AP based on location, skills, with top-guy discount

QuikSand

11-28-2010, 09:58 AM

re-posting for page convenience

Action Point Values for FOF House Rules

Late Free Agency
5 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency
4 – Sign a FA player in 2nd or 3rd year in league
3 – Sign a FA player in his 4th year in league
1 – Sign a FA rookie player to 2 or 3 yr contract
0 – Sign a FA rookie player to 1yr contract
1 – Offer any other FA player his requested contract
1 – Offer any other FA player a one year contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Thinking this section is probably in need of a rewrite. I think back when I got started with this concept, I was worried that it was too easy to swoop in and pick up pretty high quality 3rd and (especially) 4th year players who were not re-signed by their teams. I saw this as an exploit, to some degree, as the RFA-resigning logic is clearly messed up to some degree -- way to many worthwhile players are left to walk into open free agency after their rookie contracts expire.

With that said, I am finding that I pretty much *never* am willing to sign a guy like this, even if he's only a marginal player -- and there are properly a fair number of marginal guys like that in any season. And if my barometer for problems with the AP system is that some otherwise viable options become non-starters all the time, then this is a failure.

I think the ideal system would allow me to fairly easily pick up low-talent guys that another team simply didn't think were worth much, but who have some attraction for my team -- return skills, an affinity, or whatever. This happens all the time in MP leagues, and in the NFL as well. One team gives up, but another team sees a decent enough fit to move in with a modest offer. That seems fine, and I don't feel like the AP system should make something like that prohibitively costly.

However, FOF doesn't seem to handle the cap well, and it also tends to overlook players with <5 years experience in the Late FA pool. Combining these two things, and there's a legitimate problem, I think. A team in cap trouble (for whatever reason, probably because it stupidly signed an expensive FA at QB who will sit behind a stud starter or something like that) will let a 55/55 rated DE who posted 10 sacks last year walk into free agency for year 4, simply by letting him walk. And then the rest of the league is too often oblivious to the guy's existence, letting my team sign him for something pitiful like 3yrs minsal with the same minsal amount as a bonus stretched across.

My first thought here is that getting that year 4 guy on a one-year contract isn't a massive exploit. That means I'd still need to re-sign him in open free agency (or tag him) to keep him around, and that costs more AP at least (and in theory opens him up to competition). So maybe I could revise this section to read something like:

Late Free Agency
4 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency to an unrestricted contract
2 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency to his requested contract
3 – Sign a new FA player in 2nd or 3rd year in league
1 – Re-sign a former RFA player from your roster to 1yr contract
3 – Sign a new FA player in his 4th year in league to multi-year contract
2 – Sign a new FA player in his 4th year in league to 1yr contract
1 – Sign a FA rookie player to multi-year contract
0 – Sign a FA rookie player to 1yr contract
1 – Offer any other FA player his requested contract
1 – Offer any other FA player a one year contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

I'm stewing on these changes for now. Would welcome any thoughts, as usual. I consider these posts to serve as "peer review."

QuikSand

12-07-2010, 11:25 AM

aaron70

12-10-2010, 03:43 PM

- Have you considered giving up some certainty to increase difficulty? Again stealing from board games, spending APs only gives you a CHANCE to do the task you want. Imagine it as a meddling owner. Spend my 6 APs to draft the guy I want at 1.3. Say there's a 50% chance (roll dice, flip coin) that Jerry Jones says no to drafting that particular guy. So now I have to spend, say, half that again to make my second choice for that 1.3 pick. So 3 points to take my second choice. If Jerry says no again, it's 0 points to make my third choice at that pick.

It offers the chance that the guys you know are going to be good still slip through your calculating fingers.

Some of the other choices could be done somewhat similarly. Spend 5 points to carry 70 players into camp. Jerry says no so you take the next lower point cost. Spend 5 but only get to take 60 players into camp.

The goal here is to throw uncertainty into your careful calculations thus making it harder for you to work all the angles. You never know how many points your REALLY going to have to spend to get to do what you want.

Seems a good idea and worth developing. That small risk of the AP actually not getting you anything would really add something to the process. Nobody commented on Bobble's idea before but it seems a valid one.

QuikSand

12-10-2010, 04:05 PM

Definitely an interesting twist. It's not really what I'm trying to accomplish myself, thus my own lack of follow-up. But something along those lines could prove pretty interesting, I'd think.

QuikSand

09-21-2013, 06:12 PM

Bumping, and thinking about some other ideas to possibly add to this fold. The notion of making it costlier in AP (not just salary) to sign guys at WR and QB seems like it could be folded in here.

Stewing...

Front Office Midget

09-28-2013, 06:40 AM

Interesting idea!

My friends and I use a modified version of this for our multiplayer league. Thank you for the hard work and all the thought!

QuikSand

09-28-2013, 07:25 AM

Thanks. My thinking on this got derailed as I have MP leagues in their offseason - so really no FOF time for single player.

But in concept, what I'm thinking would be to add to this section:

3 – Each player on roster for week 1 occupying over 10% of cap
2 – Each player on roster for week 1 occupying 5-10% of cap

...and add something that specifically limits certain players who are either overweighted in importance, or underweighted by the SP opposition, like:

3 – Each QB or WR on roster rated over 60
2 – Each QB or WR on roster rated 45-60
1 - Each QB on roster rated over 60 in Sense Rush
1 - Each WR on roster rated over 60 in Big Play Receiving

Not really well formed yet, but something like this is what I have in mind. If I added this rule to my standard 60AP setup under these rules, my teams would look a good deal different, I think. It would be tough to compress another 5-8 AP out of the team in order to carry a couple key QB/WR guys.

QuikSand

09-28-2013, 07:26 AM

Note to self:

Training Camp
3 – Use custom training camp settings
0 – Use default training camp settings
5 – Carry up to 70 players into training camp
3 – Carry up to 60 players into training camp
2 – Carry up to 57 players into training camp
1 – Carry up to 55 players into training camp
0 – Carry up to 53 players into training camp

...this is probably too severe. I never even consider carrying a lot of players into camp. Need to rethink this.

QuikSand

09-29-2013, 01:43 PM

Continued notes to self:

Big weakness here is that I have surely built this around my own preferences, consciously or not. So, for instance, when I play solo, I want to move through the actual seasons quickly... Don't want to fiddle with depth charts and manage injuries, etc...so I almost always let the staff set the depth charts. For me, I never would consider taking control of that at a cost of X action points (dont even know where I have that set). But to someone else who is more patient or careful than I am, this would be tough... All else equal that guy could have a much tougher set of decisions than I do at a given AP level.

I suspect that's one of numerous such instances. If I could find a holy grail that works for me, that's good. I harbor delusions that the AP setup could be refined to the point where anyone willing to put in the time/detail could get a long term challenge from it, with the AP cap being the only "slider" needed. Not sure, though.

QuikSand

09-29-2013, 01:46 PM

possible additon:

2 - Sweep roster for ideal special teams assignments for all players (2?)

...another thing that I do with teams I care about, that seems worth adding in as another AP consideration. It's a good angle, worth making me pay for it, I think.

QuikSand

10-12-2013, 10:56 AM

Ive built up a spreadsheet for tracking purposes, and have filled it with a revised set of values. Am playing a test career using the 2012 Jags (shivers). I wont be detailing in a dynasty thread, but may be noting my tendencies here.

First season is always misleading for tracking AP - cutting tons of deadweight, signing tons of roster fillers, etc. We head into 2014 with picks 1.4 and 1.12, a young mini-creeper QB, a stud WR in Blackmon, and a lot of holes to fill, including RB where MJD finally had his legs fall off (after one last workhorse year). We'll see how it goes with a more normal season (33 guys signed).

QuikSand

10-13-2013, 09:31 AM

...and a weakness in this system shows up quickly. Top grade WR (type who would go at 1.1 or 1.2 in a savvy MP draft) slips to pick 11. I have a set of rules to make carrying good WR tougher, but this remained an easy pickup and a true windfall. It's disappointing, and hard to rein in without brutal rules (which I am now considering).

QuikSand

10-20-2013, 09:29 AM

Trying to paste in my latest version of the AP system here:

Staff Hiring
3 – Scout or head coach who was hired with no contract restrictions
2 – Scout or head coach who was hired on his requested contract before stage 3
0 – Scout or head coach who was hired on his requested contract in stage 3
1 – Replacing scout or head coach currently under contract
2 – Coordinator who was hired with no contract restrictions
1 – Coordinator who was hired on requested contract before stage 3
0 – Coordinator who was hired on requested contract in stage 3
0 – Coordinator who was hired for 1yr at spending limit in stage 3
1 – Replacing coordinator currently under contract

Internal Contract Moves
2 – Use franchise tag on player for second consecutive year
2 – Use franchise tag on player labeled as angry, livid or demanding trade
2 – Use franchise tag on player with loyalty rating of zero
1 – Use franchise tag on any other player
2 – Send former 1st round pick to European league
1 – Send former 2nd-5th round pick to European league
0 – Send former 6th or 7th round pick or former to European league
3 – Sign current player to unrestricted renegotiation
2 – Sign current player to his requested renegotiation
0 – Sign current player to a full or partial capout
2 – Sign RFA player on an unrestricted new contract
1 – Sign RFA player to his requested multi year contract
0 – Sign RFA player to his requested one year contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Early Free Agency
3 – Sign FA player to an unrestricted contract
2 – Sign FA player to a flat contract with at least 25% bonus
2 – Sign FA player to a three-year minsal contract
1 – Sign FA player to his requested contract
0 – Sign FA player to 8th year+ requested contract 1yr no bonus
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Trading
1 – Initiating trade for player from another team
3 – Initiating trade of player(s) for a 1st round pick or more
2 – Initiating trade of player(s) for 2nd round pick or more
1 – Initiating trade of player(s) for less than 2nd round pick
2 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that fails “fairness test”
1 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that passes “fairness test”
2 – Trading down from Top 10 pick within current draft
1 – Any other trade within current draft
3 – Any trade involving future 1st round pick from another team
2 – Any other trade involving draft picks in future years
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Rookie Draft
2 – Use up to 60 rookie interviews
1 – Use up to 20 rookie interviews
6 – Manually use draft pick between 1.1 and 1.5
5 – Manually use draft pick between 1.6 and 1.16
4 – Manually use draft pick between 1.17 and 1.32
3 – Manually use 2nd round draft pick
2 – Manually use 3rd round draft pick
1 – Manually use 4th or 5th round draft pick
0 – Manually use 6th or 7th round draft pick
0 – Cost of allowing scout to select pick in any round
1 – Added cost if player drafted has 2 or more red combines
1 – Added cost if player drafted has 4 or more red + blue combines
-1 – Deduction from positive AP cost for selecting top player on position board

Late Free Agency
3 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency to an unrestricted contract
2 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency to his requested contract
2 – Sign a new FA player in 2nd or 3rd year in league
1 – Re-sign a former RFA player from your roster to 1yr contract
3 – Sign a new FA player in his 4th year in league to multi-year contract
1 – Sign a new FA player in his 4th year in league to 1yr contract
1 – Sign a FA rookie player to multi-year contract
0 – Sign a FA rookie player to 1yr contract
1 – Sign any other FA player to his requested contract
1 – Sign any other FA player to a one year contract
3 – Sign current player to unrestricted renegotiation
2 – Sign current player to his requested renegotiation
0 – Sign current player to a full or partial capout
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Training Camp
3 – Use custom training camp settings
0 – Use default training camp settings
3 – Carry up to 70 players into training camp
2 – Carry up to 60 players into training camp
0 – Carry up to 53 players into training camp

Start of Season
2 - Sweep roster for ideal special teams assignments for all players
8 – Implement custom gameplans at start of season
6 – Implement custom GP, with unchanged offensive gameplan from FOFC library
2 – Allow unlimited changes to offensive gameplan during season
2 – Allow unlimited changes to defensive gameplan during season
0 – Implement staff-controlled gameplans for full season
4 – Allow unlimited changes to depth chart during season
0 – Implement staff-controlled depth chart for full season
3 – Set injury rate at 100
2 – Set injury rate at 150
0 – Set injury rate at 200
15 – Use entire salary cap
12 – Leave 5% of cap unused at of start of season
9 – Leave 10% of cap unused at of start of season
6 – Leave 15% of cap unused at of start of season
3 – Leave 20% of cap unused at of start of season
0 – Leave 25% of cap unused at of start of season
2 – Each player on roster for week 1 occupying over 10% of cap
1 – Each player on roster for week 1 occupying 5-10% of cap
2 – Each QB or WR on roster rated over 60
1 – Each QB or WR on roster rated 45-60
1 - Each QB on roster rated over 60 in Sense Rush
1 - Each WR on roster rated over 60 in Big Play Receiving

In-Season
3 – Sign veteran free agent (for reasons other than injury replacement)
2 – Sign veteran free agent to replace player placed onto IR
1 – Sign rookie free agent to replace player placed onto IR
0 – Sign lowest-rated rookie free agent to maintain legal roster

Budget Reconciliation
Total AP used in moves above
AP budget for year
AP carried over from prior year
AP carried into next year (pay 1 for each 2 carried)

QuikSand

11-23-2013, 11:08 PM

Since my test career seems belly up, I thought I'd at least share the Excel tool I developed for this setup, which really helped me keep track of things.

QuikSand

11-30-2013, 09:30 AM

...overall, my sense is that this AP system is pretty good, and the spreadsheet for tracking makes it a lot easier to work with. My savejags.xxx career ran through its predictable arc -- terrible team, I make huge changes, and then a wave of maturing players and cohesion gains result in the team becoming a complete juggernaut (3 straight bye weeks, including one 16-1 season following a title run).

Overall, playing with this set of rules at 60AP seems maybe a click or two too easy... but it's possible I'm about to experience the tougher side of it. My JAX team only has 28 players signed after slipping to 11-5 last year (top two QB hurt) and it looks like the AP limit will be really tough in the offseason ahead. I expect to play it out and see if the 60AP limit (no carryover, either) really kills me here, as it really ought to.

QuikSand

12-22-2013, 10:28 PM

So, in my current FOF 7 career (just playing all-out to kick the tires a bit) I am having fun, but am also crushing the solo game. I think no matter what, a savvy and experienced owner is going to need some limitations to work beneath.

Not right away, but in time I expect to revive this idea -- and work out a spreadsheet approach to the AP concept. I like it a lot, just need to play out what things need to be reframed given the changed backdrop of AI (room under the cap seems obvious, the minsal allowances, not sure what else).

jzicc

12-23-2013, 05:52 AM

how many seasons quik have you played? I thought Ben was having cap problems after a few seasons ...

Ben E Lou

12-23-2013, 06:07 AM

I have two things turned off in my career where I would have a huge advantage over the AI: chemistry and depth charting. (If the AI manages my depth charts, I don't get the massive special teams advantage.) Those two things, I suspect, would add a couple of wins per year. I also get the impression that without defined house rules, Quik tends to go "Multi-Player all out" in his SP careers, going after every possible angle for an advantage. I don't really find most of that stuff terribly fun; I just do it in MP because I'm super-competitive. In SP, I play with some sort of self-imposed limits that I don't necessarily list as house rules.

For example, I make all of my FA offers at FA1:2 and FA2:1. I could save a good bit of money by waiting to make those offers later in the stages as the prices have come down. It's easier to just make 'em all at the beginning, plus it adds to the challenge, but I don't list that as a "house rule." I probably should. Also, I don't negotiate: I only do requested renegs or cap outs. (I really need to start pushing that system to figure out what I'll be able to get away with in MP. ;)) Point being, a decent amount of my cap troubles in my dynasty are because of not going after angles that I'll go after hard and heavy in the MP environment.

QuikSand

12-23-2013, 08:14 AM

I wasn't posting to brag - just to point out that this game (especially without any semblance of skill levels) is inherently going to be very beatable by some owners. I'm already there in my first walk-through...this isn't a shock, I have played an awful lot of FOF and this game isn't hugely different. So, in time, I think there will still be a need for some sort of house rules for many of us - and I'm sufficiently enamored with the AP concept (above and elsewhere) to think this idea will be a viable part of that long-term conversation.

Anyway - my team won the title in 2024, and has been a bye week team for 3 years running. We made it to two bowl games in 2017-2018, then slid back when I let my starting QB (Tannehill) walk for a good-looking rookie, and now I am pretty well loaded at WR-QB-WR-WR for the few years ahead. My guess is that I will still have roster challenges, but overall my team is "there" and will never really slide out of its status as a title competitor.

Ben is right, he and I do play differently in some ways. I, too, have depth charting turned over to staff (and give up the special teams benefit from mircomanaging there, I presume) -- but I do have chemistry turned on, and am pretty committed to that (and my team benefits, I'm confident). I also am probably less likely to really press the cap like Ben might, since my pursuit of pure expensive talent is more refined by my interest in cohesion and chemistry (in 2023, my team went 15-1 with about $30m in cap space unused). In any case, my team is on the usual track for FOF with a savvy and experienced GM -- I have built it up from a starting point to a fully developed top contender, and going forward the challenge is merely to maintain that status and to occasionally have a great and/or lucky year.

Dave Hansen

12-23-2013, 10:25 AM

A while back...to make the SP AI more competitive it was suggested:

*turn all injuries off.

*set yearly cap figure at max...$9.9M increase per year.

Granted the above detracts from realism.

Does this make any sense for 7?

QuikSand

12-26-2013, 07:19 AM

So, in scratching toward an AP worksheet/setup for FOF 7, I think this is going to be fairly easy to drop into FOF 7 landscape, at least initially. Right now, I have reframed the AP cost for using interviews (2AP for all 12, 1AP for 6) and I have tamped down the cost for using all the salcap (max 10 instead of 15, using my ever-present 2/3 ratio).

Biggest thing I don't know what to do with now is staff hiring. I used to separate between "getting the guy you want" versus "getting who's left." That isn't really in play any longer in FOF 7. My thinking now is that to renegotiate a staff member should cost you AP (maybe between 1-3?) but just getting what you can get in the staff draft should be AP free. Then I get into wondering whether things like aggressive ticket pricing of stadium upgrades ought to be folded into the AP system -- after all, my team will get an advantage after I install max seats and big tix pricing, and things that give me an advantage are what I'm trying to put into the AP budget concept.

I also don't like having to remember where I got my staff members... but am unsatisfied making there be an AP cost only in the reneg year.

So... working on it. I think my "all out" career will fairly soon jump the tracks to one played under a new set of AP rules.

QuikSand

12-26-2013, 10:48 AM

So, fiddling with this now... here's my old section governing contracts in early free agency:

Early Free Agency
3 – Sign FA player to an unrestricted contract
2 – Sign FA player to a flat contract with at least 25% bonus
2 – Sign FA player to a three-year minsal contract
1 – Sign FA player to his requested contract
0 – Sign FA player to 8th year+ requested contract 1yr no bonus
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

So... I used to allow some fairly easy outs for certain low-impact contracts, namely the 3yr minsal deal (3yr for 2AP was a pretty good deal) and the 0AP window for older minsal vets.

In FOF 7, I'm not sure either of these are sufficiently viable to leave in this way. The band of guys who will accept the pure minsal deal is really small now... so I don't see it (so far) as a viable way to do roster fill-ins.

Trying to contemplate what to do here to keep the weights in balance. I'm thinking some special consideration for a 1yr no-bonus deal that's above minsal is the best steam release... maybe just allow those at 1AP each (with bump after 3).

QuikSand

12-26-2013, 11:15 AM

I think I am going to press on with my first FOF7 career, using this set of rules. I'm at a good crossroad moment right now -- we've come off a string of really good seasons (6 byes and 6 bowl appearances in the last 8 seasons), but right now we have a fleet of top-tier players all coming due for new contracts (including our starting QB entering his 14th year, and our three best defensive players at DE-CB-DE).

My guess (and hope) is that under a tighter regime, I will have to shed some of this talent and rely more deeply on my draft and free agent signings, rather than a little nebula of stars.

I'm trying to stick with the AP=60 limit that I have gotten used to, and will keep and eye out for my usual playtesting results -- once I start using a certain angle/strategy too much, that's my signal that I need a new limiting rule. We'll see how things progress from here.

QuikSand

12-26-2013, 11:15 AM

Here's the set of rules I plan to go forward under:

Staff Hiring
3 – Renegotiate Head Coach contract
2 – Renegotiate Coordinator or Asst Coach contract
2 – Renegotiate Strength Coordinator contract
2 – Replacing Head Coach currently under contract
1 – Replacing other staff currently under contract

Internal Contract Moves
2 – Use franchise tag on player for second consecutive year
2 – Use franchise tag on player labeled as angry, livid or demanding trade
2 – Use franchise tag on player with loyalty rating of zero
1 – Use franchise tag on any other player
3 – Sign current player to unrestricted renegotiation
2 – Sign current player to his requested renegotiation
0 – Sign current player to a full or partial capout
2 – Sign RFA player on an unrestricted new contract
1 – Sign RFA player to his requested multi year contract
0 – Sign RFA player to his requested one year contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Early Free Agency
3 – Sign FA player to an unrestricted contract
2 – Sign FA player to a flat contract with at least 25% bonus
1 – Sign FA player to any minsal contract
1 – Sign FA player to his requested contract
1 – Sign FA player to 1yr no bonus contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Trading
1 – Initiating trade for player from another team
3 – Initiating trade of player(s) for a 1st round pick or more
2 – Initiating trade of player(s) for 2nd round pick or more
1 – Initiating trade of player(s) for less than 2nd round pick
2 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that fails “fairness test”
1 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that passes “fairness test”
2 – Trading down from Top 10 pick within current draft
1 – Any other trade within current draft
5 – Any trade involving future 1st round pick from another team
2 – Any other trade involving draft picks in future years
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Rookie Draft
2 – Use up to 12 rookie interviews
1 – Use up to 6 rookie interviews
6 – Manually use draft pick between 1.1 and 1.5
5 – Manually use draft pick between 1.6 and 1.16
4 – Manually use draft pick between 1.17 and 1.32
3 – Manually use 2nd round draft pick
2 – Manually use 3rd round draft pick
1 – Manually use 4th or 5th round draft pick
0 – Manually use 6th or 7th round draft pick
0 – Cost of allowing scout to select pick in any round
1 – Added cost if player drafted has 2 or more red combines
1 – Added cost if player drafted has 4 or more red + blue combines
-1 – Deduction from positive AP cost for selecting top player on position board

Late Free Agency
3 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency to an unrestricted contract
2 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency to his requested contract
2 – Sign a new FA player in 2nd or 3rd year in league
1 – Re-sign a former RFA player from your roster to 1yr contract
3 – Sign a new FA player in his 4th year in league to multi-year contract
1 – Sign a new FA player in his 4th year in league to 1yr contract
1 – Sign a FA rookie player to multi-year contract
0 – Sign a FA rookie player to 1yr contract
1 – Sign any other FA player to his requested contract
1 – Sign any other FA player to a one year contract
3 – Sign current player to unrestricted renegotiation
2 – Sign current player to his requested renegotiation
0 – Sign current player to a full or partial capout
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Training Camp
3 – Use custom training camp settings
0 – Use default training camp settings
3 – Carry up to 70 players into training camp
2 – Carry up to 60 players into training camp
0 – Carry up to 53 players into training camp

Start of Season
2 - Sweep roster for ideal special teams assignments for all players
8 – Implement custom gameplans at start of season
6 – Implement custom GP, with unchanged offensive gameplan from FOFC library
2 – Allow unlimited changes to offensive gameplan during season
2 – Allow unlimited changes to defensive gameplan during season
0 – Implement staff-controlled gameplans for full season
4 – Allow unlimited changes to depth chart during season
0 – Implement staff-controlled depth chart for full season
3 – Set injury rate at 100
2 – Set injury rate at 150
0 – Set injury rate at 200
10 – Use entire salary cap
8 – Leave 5% of cap unused at of start of season
6 – Leave 10% of cap unused at of start of season
4 – Leave 15% of cap unused at of start of season
2 – Leave 20% of cap unused at of start of season
0 – Leave 25% of cap unused at of start of season
2 – Each player on roster for week 1 occupying over 10% of cap
1 – Each player on roster for week 1 occupying 5-10% of cap
2 – Each QB or WR on roster rated over 60
1 – Each QB or WR on roster rated 45-60
1 - Each QB on roster rated over 60 in Sense Rush
1 - Each WR on roster rated over 60 in Big Play Receiving

In-Season
3 – Sign veteran free agent (for reasons other than injury replacement)
2 – Sign veteran free agent to replace player placed onto IR
1 – Sign rookie free agent to replace player placed onto IR
0 – Sign lowest-rated rookie free agent to maintain legal roster
3 – Sign current player to unrestricted renegotiation
2 – Sign current player to his requested renegotiation

Budget Reconciliation
Total AP used in moves above
AP budget for year
AP carried over from prior year
AP carried into next year (pay 1 for each 2 carried)

QuikSand

12-29-2013, 06:40 AM

So in my first offseason using the AP system, I went over my budget a bit (I wasn't counting all that closely) -- using 66 AP with the system above. Had I been wiser, I could have delayed a few guys I signed in early FA until the later stages, and probably could have weaseled that number down pretty close to 60.

I also started that season with only 28 players signed - I think it was a bit of a hiccup in that regard.

Anyway, I lost two high quality players to free agency bids by other teams, but kept my essential passing game core intact, and I expect I have a contender for the year ahead. I plan to play onward under the 60AP system, and see how it goes.

QuikSand

12-31-2013, 09:05 AM

Definitely need to re-think the staff stuff. Paying AP to renegotiate seems like a good move, but my mature team now has the #1 finances - so it seems like most of my staff is unpoachable, most notably the head coach. I think I have lost one staff guy in my entire career. Need to think what to do here... maybe there needs to be an AP cost to increasing ticket prices, redoing stadium, and so forth. I don't like the complexity, but maybe it's warranted as part of the spirit of all this stuff.

SCgoatman

01-03-2014, 02:54 AM

Ben E Lou

01-03-2014, 03:44 AM

while not a surprise, this has to be one of the most disheartening threads re: FOF7 for a solo player. Some need for house rules is to be expected as the mechanics of the game are worked out, but when almost immediately it seems there is a complete breakdown in the ability of the single player career to provide meaningful competition when this was obviously an issue with the prior version? :confused: :banghead: :confused: :banghead:You should think about two things:
1. Quik has played and plays more SP FOF than just about anyone. Odds are fairly high that he's the top SP guy out there.
2. Quik can't help himself when it comes to angle-shooting. My observation is that I don't think he'd enjoy FOF as much if he couldn't find angles to shoot. ;) Without house rules, he's going to do things that maybe 95% of SP players would never think to do, and that 99% would never do. Not doing those things significantly increases difficulty.

I think most would consider me to be pretty good at both SP and MP. Check out the Dynasty threads, even mine. People who aren't pushing the outer limits of the game and doing things that are wholly unrealistic aren't crushing the game. That's no knock on Quik. It's just what he likes to do. My over-arching principle is "don't do things that the AI isn't allowed to do." That really only boils down to three house rules for me:
All contracts offered--both to free agents and for contract renegotiations--must be for at least the requested number of years. (No reducing the number of years, in other words.) One exception: for renegs, cap-outs (full or partial) are allowed.
Don't trade with the AI for future draft picks unless it is an AI-offered trade.
No game plans with the AI-busting shenanigans that people use in MP like throwing long 80% of the time on 2nd and short.I don't feel like I lose anything in terms of fun or flexibility by playing this way, and it's most definitely challenging. I've won only one Bowl in 10 seasons playing this way. My take is that the SP AI is intended to focus on the 80/20 rule: make it good enough to be challenging for at least 80% of players. But I'd say that FOF7 is probably closer to hitting a nice challenge for 90-95% of players, and more when those players aren't actively trying to game the system.

And again, none of that is intended in any way to be a knock on Quik. When I am in a MP league against humans, I will *always* actively attempt to game the system in any way that I can. I just don't find to be remotely in my nature or fun for SP play. For him, it seems to be just part of who he is and how he plays. To each his own.

QuikSand

01-03-2014, 05:24 AM

Ben's basically right in many ways. I don't really lay claim to being "the best" at anything in particular, but I have played this game an awful lot.

I'd phrase our differences a little differently, with the same bottom line. Ben says he plays with some "house rules" but to me they are just too softly phrased.

What I have long strived for with the AP concept (and otherwise) has been a pretty comprehensive set of house rules where you can write them all down, follow them all, and completely reproduce them. To me, a perfect set of AP house rules would make everything in the game possible, but no longer an unfair advantage.

So, for example, if I want to trade into a future year like a real NFL GM can, I want to be able to do that. However, I think the game doesn't really handle that situation well enough. So, I add in an artificial constraint - it costs me 5 of my "action points" and that penalty (and what I'd have to give up to do it) is enough to make it a fairly rare thing (like it is in the NFL).

My tolerance for complexity is higher than most people's. And, oddly, the development of house rules has itself become a sort of meta-game for me over the years, I have to confess.

So yeah, we're different people.

Anyway - don't give up on FOF by any means. I know I am going to have a long fun time playing it, even solo.

SCgoatman

01-08-2014, 03:11 AM

That's completely fair. I probably lean more towards Quik's personality than others re: Single player approach, but more than likely I'll buy the product if nothing else to support Jim at some point (given I've bought the previous 3-4 versions + TCY). It's just somewhat disheartening that it may be fairly easily "beaten" in single player.

I will be interested to see if the long term cap issues that IA teams ran into on the prior versions (with 90+% dead cap and decimated rosters) have been fixed, as from an immersion standpoint, that was a laughably bad issue in the prior version.

Front Office Midget

01-10-2014, 01:15 PM

Interesting, I notice the changes you made in October seem pretty significant.

My friends and I have been using these rules, with 40 AP, in our 4-person multiplayer league.

Internal Contract Moves
4 – Use franchise tag on player for third consecutive year or more
3 – Use franchise tag on player for second consecutive year
3 – Use franchise tag on player labeled as angry, livid or demanding trade
3 – Use franchise tag on player with loyalty rating of zero
2 – Use franchise tag on any other player
4 – Sign current player to unrestricted renegotiation
2 – Sign current player to his requested renegotiation
0 – Sign current player to a full or partial capout
2 – Sign RFA player on an unrestricted new contract
1 – Sign RFA player to his requested multi year contract
0 – Sign RFA player to his requested one year contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Early Free Agency
4 – Offer FA player an unrestricted contract
2 – Offer FA player a flat contract with at least 25% bonus
2 – Offer FA player a three-year minsal contract
1 – Offer FA player his requested contract
0 – Offer FA player 8th year+ requested contract 1yr no bonus
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses
(Submitting an altered contract to a player already on offer list re-incurs same cost as original offer would have above)

Late Free Agency
5 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency
4 – Sign a FA player in 2nd or 3rd year in league
3 – Sign a FA player in his 4th year in league
2 – Sign a FA rookie player
1 – Offer any other FA player his requested contract
1 – Offer any other FA player a one year contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

I notice your more recent rules have only 3 points for unrestricted contracts. Any reason why? I thought our rules have balanced out nicely but I'm not sure going into FOF7. We're just finishing our last FOF2k7 offseason.

QuikSand

01-11-2014, 07:09 AM

I'm still not really settled on what to do for FOF7. One thing that needs a big change is the late FA period -- there's no longer much worry (in SP at least) of high quality players (usually 4th year guys) just showing up in the FA pool then - which I had built an AP wall around in my working version, and you have incorporated above.

I think the reason I dropped a few of the high AP cost items a bit was because I personally wasn't using them, ever. And if I have placed a price of 4AP on something and I never, ever use it -- then I think I'm defeating the purpose of the system, where I really do want realistic things to be in play.

Actually, I think the AP costs for things in the free agent stages need a re-look, once I/we just have a better handle on the new game and its workings. One thing Ben has used that I thnik could be incorporated here is an elevated AP cost for offering a contract of a different duration (rather than composition) than the player's request. Right now, the AP rules make i fairly easy to do one-year deals... but in FOF 7, that might be an advantage, rather than a handicap. I have lots of guys that I pause before offering their requested 3yr contracts, but i'm happier signing them to 1y equivalents and assuming less cap risk. Maybe the new AP system needs to reflect that better.

I haven't had time to play any single player FOF lately, so I haven't been working on this actively at all. I'm still thinking about it, though. If I can be of help to you and your small league, I'd be glad to do so in this thread.

QuikSand

11-21-2014, 03:33 PM

giving this some thought again...

QuikSand

09-26-2015, 08:54 AM

So, I'm fiddling with this old idea again, looking at ways I might be able to use it in FOF7.

I'm thinking about dumping the complicated stuff with AP costs for draft picks, though I am toying with a rule like "AP Cost for using Draft Analyzer or comparable automated tool." An alternative might be to add an AP cost for each constraints-qualified guy picked after Round 3(?). Not sure how complex I want that to be.

Anyway... have been mentally fiddling with this a bit. Lots of stuff needs to be changed to catch up with the changes to FOF.

QuikSand

09-26-2015, 08:56 AM

(And wow, searching for this thread where the idea got fleshed out a lot, I accidentally stumbled on my very first thread along these lines from more than a decade ago... wow, what a CF that turned into)

FOF House Rule: Action Points - Front Office Football Central (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=19437)

Ben E Lou

09-26-2015, 09:29 AM

You sound like a Frenchman praising Jerry Lewis movies.

NawlinsFan

09-26-2015, 11:28 AM

I'm trying much simpler for my pea sized brain:

- I must draft my 3 needs with my first 3 draft picks. After that, whatever I want.
- I can't participate in FA (rounds 1-12), and restrict myself to 3 players in late FA. (Means I have to renegotiate with what I have a lot)
- If I lose a player to injury I can tap the market for whatever is available.

Completed year 1 and about to enter year 2 for the initial impact of doing this so how this pans out is still up in the air.

garion333

09-26-2015, 09:08 PM

I found the 7 year itch (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=88503&highlight=Itch) idea to be the most interesting SP experience for me.

When I'm not doing that, I tend to do much of what you're describing, Nawlins.

I'm toying with the idea of letting my coaches pick my 1st rounders and I get to do the rest. That way I have to work to find a QB. Or I piss and moan as my "ownership" force drafts Weeden and then Manziel. Good times.

QuikSand

10-04-2015, 02:06 PM

Here's a revised set of rules for FOF7, with the draft-based stuff basically intact.

My new leaning is to junk most of that, but I haven't playtested anything there.

Staff Hiring
3 – Renegotiate Head Coach contract
2 – Renegotiate Coordinator or Asst Coach contract
2 – Renegotiate Strength Coordinator contract
2 – Replacing Head Coach currently under contract
1 – Replacing other staff currently under contract

Internal Contract Moves
2 – Use franchise tag on player for second consecutive year
2 – Use franchise tag on player labeled as angry, livid or demanding trade
2 – Use franchise tag on player with loyalty rating of zero
1 – Use franchise tag on any other player
3 – Sign current player to unrestricted renegotiation
2 – Sign current player to his requested renegotiation
0 – Sign current player to a full or partial capout
2 – Sign RFA player on an unrestricted new contract
1 – Sign RFA player to his requested multi year contract
0 – Sign RFA player to his requested one year contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Early Free Agency
3 – Sign FA player to an unrestricted contract
2 – Sign FA player to a flat contract with at least 25% bonus
1 – Sign FA player to any minsal contract
1 – Sign FA player to his requested contract
1 – Sign FA player to 1yr no bonus contract
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Trading
1 – Initiating trade for player from another team
3 – Initiating trade of player(s) for a 1st round pick or more
2 – Initiating trade of player(s) for 2nd round pick or more
1 – Initiating trade of player(s) for less than 2nd round pick
2 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that fails “fairness test”
1 – Accepting AI-initiated trade that passes “fairness test”
2 – Trading down from Top 10 pick within current draft
1 – Any other trade within current draft
5 – Any trade involving future 1st round pick from another team
2 – Any other trade involving draft picks in future years
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Rookie Draft
2 – Use up to 12 rookie interviews
1 – Use up to 6 rookie interviews
6 – Manually use draft pick between 1.1 and 1.5
5 – Manually use draft pick between 1.6 and 1.16
4 – Manually use draft pick between 1.17 and 1.32
3 – Manually use 2nd round draft pick
2 – Manually use 3rd round draft pick
1 – Manually use 4th or 5th round draft pick
0 – Manually use 6th or 7th round draft pick
0 – Cost of allowing scout to select pick in any round
1 – Added cost if player drafted has 2 or more red combines
1 – Added cost if player drafted has 4 or more red + blue combines
-1 – Deduction from positive AP cost for selecting top player on position board

Late Free Agency
3 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency to an unrestricted contract
2 – Sign a FA player released during late free agency to his requested contract
2 – Sign a new FA player in 2nd or 3rd year in league
1 – Re-sign a former RFA player from your roster to 1yr contract
3 – Sign a new FA player in his 4th year in league to multi-year contract
1 – Sign a new FA player in his 4th year in league to 1yr contract
1 – Sign a FA rookie player to multi-year contract
0 – Sign a FA rookie player to 1yr contract
1 – Sign any other FA player to his requested contract
1 – Sign any other FA player to a one year contract
3 – Sign current player to unrestricted renegotiation
2 – Sign current player to his requested renegotiation
0 – Sign current player to a full or partial capout
1 – Additional cost of using any item above after its first three uses

Training Camp
3 – Use custom training camp settings
0 – Use default training camp settings
3 – Carry up to 70 players into training camp
2 – Carry up to 60 players into training camp
0 – Carry up to 53 players into training camp

Start of Season
2 - Sweep roster for ideal special teams assignments for all players
8 – Implement custom gameplans at start of season
6 – Implement custom GP, with unchanged offensive gameplan from FOFC library
2 – Allow unlimited changes to offensive gameplan during season
2 – Allow unlimited changes to defensive gameplan during season
0 – Implement staff-controlled gameplans for full season
4 – Allow unlimited changes to depth chart during season
0 – Implement staff-controlled depth chart for full season
3 – Set injury rate at 100
2 – Set injury rate at 150
0 – Set injury rate at 200
10 – Use entire salary cap
8 – Leave 5% of cap unused at of start of season
6 – Leave 10% of cap unused at of start of season
4 – Leave 15% of cap unused at of start of season
2 – Leave 20% of cap unused at of start of season
0 – Leave 25% of cap unused at of start of season
2 – Each player on roster for week 1 occupying over 10% of cap
1 – Each player on roster for week 1 occupying 5-10% of cap
2 – Each QB or WR on roster rated over 60
1 – Each QB or WR on roster rated 45-60
1 - Each QB on roster rated over 60 in Sense Rush
1 - Each WR on roster rated over 60 in Big Play Receiving

In-Season
3 – Sign veteran free agent (for reasons other than injury replacement)
2 – Sign veteran free agent to replace player placed onto IR
1 – Sign rookie free agent to replace player placed onto IR
0 – Sign lowest-rated rookie free agent to maintain legal roster
3 – Sign current player to unrestricted renegotiation
2 – Sign current player to his requested renegotiation

Budget Reconciliation
Total AP used in moves above
AP budget for year
AP carried over from prior year
AP carried into next year (pay 1 for each 2 carried)