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Leonidas
04-05-2008, 01:58 AM
Jim, if you're reading I think this article would be a good reference for the offensive line when putting together your next version of the game. I've always thought centers in the game give up way too many sacks and this article confirms it.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/ross_tucker/04/02/oline.rankings/index.html?eref=T1

LEFT TACKLE

Picking the left tackle at the top of this list was not as easy as one might think. Most teams in the NFL often slide their protection to the quarterback's blind side, which is almost always the left. The center is able to provide inside help for the left guard and the left guard is able to protect the left tackle's inside as the three work in concert to block the two defensive linemen while eyeing their other responsibility, the weak-side linebacker. That often leaves the right guard and right tackle one-on-one. For this reason, I briefly considered putting the right tackle at the top of this list.

Ultimately, however, the left tackle still has to block the elite pass rushers around the NFL play after play, week in and week out. If the left tackle makes a mistake, it can result in not only a sack but also quite often a fumble as the defensive end strips the quarterback from behind. Turnovers always play a big part in determining the outcome of a game, increasing the importance of the blind-side protector.

Certain offensive lineman, like Chris Samuels of the Redskins, can provide enormous additional value by rarely receiving any help from his interior linemates. This allows them to solidify the interior of the offensive line. The Redskins' confidence in leaving Samuels on an island without typically receiving any help whatsoever is a luxury many teams cannot afford.
RIGHT TACKLE

The consensus among the linemen with whom I spoke reinforced my belief in the importance of right tackles. The position, in most offenses, receives less aid from fellow linemen then the left tackle. This is somewhat balanced, however, by the reality that right tackles are more likely to have the tight end on their side of the formation, which can create an additional obstacle for a defensive lineman to consider.

Though right tackles go up against top-flight rushers like the Seahawks' Patrick Kerney and the Packers' Aaron Kampman, there is not the same consistency in terms of quality of opponent as there is for the left tackle. Right tackles also are more likely to receive help from a running back in the form of a "chip." Finally, the likelihood that their mistake will cause a game-altering turnover is somewhat lessened since the rusher is usually in the quarterback's line of sight.

RIGHT GUARD

Without question the most difficult of the interior line positions, right guards are most likely to be left one-on-one with an elite inside rusher. The predominance of teams to slide their center to the left to protect the quarterback's blind side creates a greater value for the right guard position. Fourteen-year veteran Todd Steussie, currently available on the free agent market, says, "Right guard is definitely harder than left guard." Recently-retired lineman Todd Fordham, a 10-year NFL vet, agreed: "The left guard always has help."

Though the difference in value between the two guard spots is lessened somewhat in an offense that rarely slides the pass protections like the Colts, the strength of the formation often dictates that the right guard has the wider alignment, and thus more difficult assignment, on his side.

LEFT GUARD

Because the left guard position is generally less difficult than the right guard position, I have been consistently perplexed the last couple of seasons by the amount of money teams are investing in the position.

Steve Hutchinson, Kris Dielman, Eric Steinbach, Derrick Dockery and Faneca lead the parade of left guards that have received contracts in excess of $40 million. Though I am not sure either guard is worth that much of the salary cap, I would be much more willing to pay those dollars to a right guard given the greater difficulty in his assignment. I think the Browns got a relative steal by signing right guard Rex Hadnot to a two-year, $7 million deal this offseason.

The greatest reason why left guards are cashing in these days? There are two: 1) The grading system for offensive linemen; and 2) General lack of understanding among some NFL personnel people concerning the difficulty inherent with the different positions.

All of these players are considered upper echelon and likely grade out among the highest linemen on their respective teams. Part of that is because they are good players, but a lot of it has to do with the fact they are much more likely to receive help from the center and thus less likely to create a negative play. The formula is simple: Less one-on-ones against defensive linemen means less chances to give up a sack or pressure. Their consistently high performance given the lower risk at the position tricks many personnel people to assume they are worthy of that money. I disagree. I believe they are all outstanding players but think they would have a tougher time if they played right guard.

There is a reason why most of the interior guys getting paid the big money are left guards and not right guards and the sooner teams can figure it out, the sooner they can begin to allocate more of their money to a position that creates a greater value proposition.
CENTER

Centers are paid more for their intelligence and experience then they are for the difficulty associated with their physical assignment. Though some athletic centers can create additional value with their ability to pull or effectively block at the second level, the greatest reason centers get paid well is the fear among coaches that their pivot man not be able to readjust the blocking scheme depending on a certain blitz look or audible. Make no mistake about it: A center that cannot make the right decisions at critical junctures could have a huge impact on the outcome of a game.

That being said, it was unanimous among the four offensive lineman that I polled that center was the easiest position, at least physically, along the line. The center is rarely in a one-on-one pass blocking situation, which as we have noted, is the most likely situation in which an offensive linemen could have a large impact on the outcome of a game.

Centers are often the ones providing the help in pass protection so it is surprising to me that teams like the Buccaneers value the position highly enough to reward a player like Jeff Faine with a contract that guarantees him $15 million. Most centers go through an entire season without giving up any sacks and are rarely credited with even being responsible for a pressure.

Though every team wants to have a highly-regarded player at every position, the economics of the game do not allow that to be the case. That is why the money invested in the offensive line should be given first to the tackles and then to the right guard, since those are the positions that could potentially make the greatest difference between a win and a loss.

Ben E Lou
04-05-2008, 05:15 AM
I've always thought centers in the game give up way too many sacks and this article confirms it.
Hmmmm....no data on how many sacks centers give up? If only there existed a utility that spit out a csv with stats for every player at every position for an entire FOF career, maybe we could find that out? ;)

This shouldn't take long at all. Viva Extender!!!

Ben E Lou
04-05-2008, 05:26 AM
<table border="0" cellspacing="0" cols="7" frame="void" rules="none"> <colgroup><col width="86"><col width="86"><col width="86"><col width="86"><col width="86"><col width="86"><col width="86"></colgroup> <tbody> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" height="17" width="86">POS</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" width="86">KRB</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" width="86">Pnck</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" width="86">SkAll</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" width="86">PsPlys</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdnum="1033;0;0.000%" align="center" width="86">Sk%</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" width="86">% Of Sks</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" height="17">LT</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="38845" sdnum="1033;" align="center">38845</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="3450" sdnum="1033;" align="center">3450</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="12532" sdnum="1033;" align="center">12532</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="890342" sdnum="1033;" align="center">890342</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.0140754900925712" sdnum="1033;0;0.000%" align="center">1.408%</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.256267637315447" sdnum="1033;0;0.00%" align="center">25.63%</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" height="17">LG</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="42197" sdnum="1033;" align="center">42197</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="3779" sdnum="1033;" align="center">3779</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="9202" sdnum="1033;" align="center">9202</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="888293" sdnum="1033;" align="center">888293</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.0103591945450431" sdnum="1033;0;0.000%" align="center">1.036%</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.188172262893133" sdnum="1033;0;0.00%" align="center">18.82%</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" height="17">C</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="43752" sdnum="1033;" align="center">43752</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="4044" sdnum="1033;" align="center">4044</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="8111" sdnum="1033;" align="center">8111</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="897034" sdnum="1033;" align="center">897034</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.00904202070378603" sdnum="1033;0;0.000%" align="center">0.904%</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.165862336918735" sdnum="1033;0;0.00%" align="center">16.59%</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" height="17">RG</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="30160" sdnum="1033;" align="center">30160</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="1652" sdnum="1033;" align="center">1652</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="8589" sdnum="1033;" align="center">8589</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="747134" sdnum="1033;" align="center">747134</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.0114959297796647" sdnum="1033;0;0.000%" align="center">1.150%</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.175636988262239" sdnum="1033;0;0.00%" align="center">17.56%</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" height="17">RT</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="24380" sdnum="1033;" align="center">24380</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="1374" sdnum="1033;" align="center">1374</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="10104" sdnum="1033;" align="center">10104</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="715063" sdnum="1033;" align="center">715063</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.0141302234907973" sdnum="1033;0;0.000%" align="center">1.413%</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.206617316265183" sdnum="1033;0;0.00%" align="center">20.66%</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" height="17">FB</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="11257" sdnum="1033;" align="center">11257</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="944" sdnum="1033;" align="center">944</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="162" sdnum="1033;" align="center">162</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="404127" sdnum="1033;" align="center">404127</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.000400864084805024" sdnum="1033;0;0.000%" align="center">0.040%</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.00331274794486933" sdnum="1033;0;0.00%" align="center">0.33%</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" height="17">TE</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="8465" sdnum="1033;" align="center">8465</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="667" sdnum="1033;" align="center">667</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="68" sdnum="1033;" align="center">68</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="762918" sdnum="1033;" align="center">762918</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.0000891314662912659" sdnum="1033;0;0.000%" align="center">0.009%</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.0013905361743896" sdnum="1033;0;0.00%" align="center">0.14%</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" height="17">RB</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0" sdnum="1033;" align="center">0</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0" sdnum="1033;" align="center">0</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="134" sdnum="1033;" align="center">134</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="866527" sdnum="1033;" align="center">866527</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.000154640305495386" sdnum="1033;0;0.000%" align="center">0.015%</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.00274017422600303" sdnum="1033;0;0.00%" align="center">0.27%</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" align="center" height="17">
</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="199056" sdnum="1033;" align="center">199056</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="15910" sdnum="1033;" align="center">15910</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="48902" sdnum="1033;" align="center">48902</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="6171438" sdnum="1033;" align="center">6171438</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="0.00792392307919159" sdnum="1033;0;0.000%" align="center">0.792%</td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);" sdval="1" sdnum="1033;0;0.00%" align="center">100.00%</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

Ben E Lou
04-05-2008, 05:45 AM
The numbers above are from a SP career that has run 45 seasons. It's not perfect, since we don't yet have a way to take into account when guys are playing out of position, but it's certainly a solid indicator. Of course, given that the article above gives no percentages, I find it to be a big jump to say "this article confirms it," even with in-game data. What we do know from the in-game data is that centers give up less sacks than any other position, that left tackles give up more than 50% more than centers, and that right tackles give up nearly 25% more than centers. It could be that guards are giving up too few, and centers are just right. Tough to know anything else.

wishbone
04-05-2008, 11:04 PM
...it was unanimous among the four offensive lineman that I polled ...

That's a wrap! No further information is needed!

I actually like most of Tucker's articles, but can we agree that he was probably a journeyman lineman for a reason. He can provide some great insights to some things but you can't take him too seriously. What if he had said that he polled 4 ILBs and they all said that playing OLB was easier? Would it still be valid?

On a sidenote , I played all the line positions and will agree that when you don't have someone right on you it makes things easier and you also get to move first everytime which is another advantage. These 2 things may have more of an impact than other factors.

Leonidas
04-06-2008, 01:59 AM
If you all wanna disagree with a guy who played several season in the NFL, many as a starter then fine. I guess the FoF community knows better. I was just trying to offer something maybe Jim could use written by a guy who actually played the game to hopefully make the sim more realistic. Tucker points out that many centers go a whole season without allowing a sack, I rarely see that happen in the game, therefore I was hoping to show that maybe the model FoF uses could do with some improvement.

Izulde
04-06-2008, 02:14 AM
If you all wanna disagree with a guy who played several season in the NFL, many as a starter then fine. I guess the FoF community knows better. I was just trying to offer something maybe Jim could use written by a guy who actually played the game to hopefully make the sim more realistic. Tucker points out that many centers go a whole season without allowing a sack, I rarely see that happen in the game, therefore I was hoping to show that maybe the model FoF uses could do with some improvement.

But if that gets adjusted, what area of statistical measurement do we have for centers, then?

Or does C then become the equivalent of a FB, a basically useless position not worth spending a high or mid-round draft pick or any real money on?

Ben E Lou
04-06-2008, 04:52 AM
Tucker points out that many centers go a whole season without allowing a sack......without any numbers to back it up. What does that mean? 10? 20? 32? The article is pretty non-specific and, as has been pointed out, leans toward the anecdotal. I'm not saying it can't use changes that would bring about improvement. I am saying that I wouldn't want changes based off one article that displays obvious flawed methodology in drawing its conclusions.