Depressed (Complaints Of A Knicks Fan)

[Anthony]

we have just shown the worst coach in basketball history the door and seemed set to put a very dark chapter in the team's history behind us, and now apparently the coach deemed to be the favorite to replace Isaiah Thomas is a person with absolutely zero amount of coaching experience (Mark Jackson). when guys like Rick Carlisle are available, you pounce. when you have one of the brightest offensive minds to pass through the league in a long time - Mike D'Antoni - you pounce and don't look back.

you don't replace one travesty with one soon to be travesty. this is awful. does the team not want me to root for them anymore? cuz that's what they're encouraging. and with the way the Knicks do things, it'll be about 3 years until we replace Jackson. if Thomas can be employed for as long as he was, Jackson will have to be a serial rapist to get canned.

but anyway, i'm just depressed. not full blown depressed, its only sports, but i'm just down on the Knicks. the sun doesn't seem to shine as brightly as it once did. someone hold me.

[Dr. Sak]

I was having a similar discussion about head coaches, it was about hockey but I think it still applies here. In professional sports it seems as if there is a group of about 5 to 8 coaches (in each sport) that just go from team to team.

They spend 2 to 4 years with one team, get fired, then find another that will hire them. But as a franchise when do you say, I've had enough of these rehashed coaches, I am going to give an up and coming guy a shot. These journey men coaches are obviously not that good or they would've stuck with a team by now. Or even hire someone that has been with their farm system who knows their young guys.

Don't worry HA, think of it this way...it can only get better from here.

[Anthony]

i don't buy into the "it can get better from here" theory. at this point if i had to choose between an unproven college coach from [insert small program here] to Mark Jackson, who has, again, NO experience...i'm going with the small college coach. at least Avery Johnson interned on Don Nelson's bench for what amounted to about a season. he was in on the huddles, he was on a coaching staff.

jeez, at least say Avery Johnson is on the Knicks' list, don't tell me your #1 leading candidate is a guy with no experiece when you got Johnson who's averaged 57 wins in his time with Dallas AND D'Antoni who completely revitalized a floundering Phoenix franchise.

the list of candidates should be (in priority order):
1. D'Antoni
2. Johnson
3. Carlisle
4. Anyone who has coaching experience

i don't see Mark Jackson on that list. put him on the coaching staff if you want, let him get his feet wet, but don't give him the keys to a horrible franchise in need of a proven leader.

[vtbub]

As long as the Dolans make their money, the on court product doesn't matter. Sorry.

[Daimyo]

I think it would be a good hire. The Knicks are going to suck for three years no matter who the coach is even with Donnie Walsh. Why not take an unproven guy and give him a chance? If he sucks then you replace him in three years when the team is ready to start getting better with a legit coach. Seems like a pretty cheap move with a good reward/risk ratio.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Or, as they say in Detroit:

As long as the Fords make their money, the on field product doesn't matter. Sorry.

[Anthony]

this is the Knicks. NBA's (alleged) flagship franchise. we need the big hire, the flashy name. not some guy who's gonna get on-the-job training on the biggest stage in the league. let him do this with Charlotte or Seattle/Oklahoma.

[MikeVic]

Didn't they have Larry Brown and he did nothing? Aren't they still paying his contract? Brown is a good coach.

[vtbub]

this is the Knicks. NBA's (alleged) flagship franchise. we need the big hire, the flashy name. not some guy who's gonna get on-the-job training on the biggest stage in the league. let him do this with Charlotte or Seattle/Oklahoma.


Sorry. The NBA wipes itself on the Lakers.

True story. The late Pete Rozelle, after watching the Giants lose the Miracle at the Meadowlands, pulled Wellington Mara aside and told him just what you said about being a flagship franchise. Mara hired George Young and they won two championships the next decade.

[Dr. Sak]

this is the Knicks. NBA's (alleged) flagship franchise. we need the big hire, the flashy name. not some guy who's gonna get on-the-job training on the biggest stage in the league. let him do this with Charlotte or Seattle/Oklahoma.

You really sound like a Notre Dame fan here.

[Anthony]

HA, do you really think that a more experienced hire will get much out of these guys until they can unload the bad contracts? It seems like a bit of a dead-end job for the next fews years until they can reload.

who the hell is the coach for the Hawks? whoever he is, he got a bad team into the playoffs and nearly took out the Celtics.

if the Knicks wanted to just give up the next 3 seasons, they already had the perfect coach to bomb with. his name is Isaiah Thomas. they got rid of him for a reason, if they weren't interested in making a change for the better just cuz of the bad contracts they have then Isaiah would still be the coach.

[JeeberD]

who the hell is the coach for the Hawks? whoever he is, he got a bad team into the playoffs and nearly took out the Celtics.


And how do you know that Mark Jackson isn't JUST the guy to do that for the Knicks? Woodson had no pro experience before becoming the Hawks coach...

[Anthony]

but no one cares about the Hawks. people in Atlanta don't care about the Hawks. we're talking about the Knicks, one of the league's most important teams. i'm not being a homer here, the Knicks are the league's team, along with the Lakers. if Stern could have Knicks/Lakers every Finals then his erection would be ludicrous.

[vtbub]

but no one cares about the Hawks. people in Atlanta don't care about the Hawks. we're talking about the Knicks, one of the league's most important teams. i'm not being a homer here, the Knicks are the league's team, along with the Lakers. if Stern could have Knicks/Lakers every Finals then his erection would be ludicrous.


The Knicks have zero national following. You are half right on Stern's boner.

[Anthony]

I would argue that the Hawks are a *much* better team than the Knicks as currently constructed.

well, they got into the playoffs, Knicks didn't, so yeah, for 2007-2008 they were better put together. that doesn't change the fact that Atlanta hasn't been relevant since Dominque Wilkins.

[JeeberD]

but no one cares about the Hawks.

Apparently you do...you're the one who brought them up.

[MrBug708]

I can understand the argument for some of the coaches on the list but some of these NBA guys are retreads. How much coaching does an NBA coach actually do? Why do pro franchises seemingly rehire coaches that struggled in other places? I think the Knicks would do well for hiring a coach like Marc Jackson. How would the Bulls have turned out if Jordan didn't insist they hire Phil Jackson? How would the Lakers have turned out if Magic wasn't insistent that they hire some guy named Pat Riley? Why do average, dull coaches like Carlisle, PJ Carlismo, Stan Van Gundy et al keep getting jobs? Why not someone like Marc Jackson, Brian Shaw, Kurt Rambis who are young coaches who really havent had a chance to show what they can do? The NFL is also famous for doing this and MLB somewhat as well

[MrBug708]

but no one cares about the Hawks. people in Atlanta don't care about the Hawks. we're talking about the Knicks, one of the league's most important teams. i'm not being a homer here, the Knicks are the league's team, along with the Lakers. if Stern could have Boston/Lakers every Finals then his erection would be ludicrous.

Fixed

[Anthony]

guys like Lawrence Frank - the Nets' coach - even got his start on the Nets' bench, and was a coach's assistant at his school. point is, guys like Avery Johnson and Lawrence Frank paid their dues (albeit for a short amount of time). they were on coaching staffs. i'd sooner hire Patrick Ewing than Mark Jackson - Ewing has spent the last 5-6 years developing big men and on various coaching staffs. 1st with the Rockets with Jeff Van Gundy, now with the Magic with Stan Van Gundy. those are some solid coaches to mentor under.

[Anthony]

The NFL is also famous for doing this and MLB somewhat as well

i would argue against that. there's a clear ladder you have to climb in the NFL. when you retire, you get hired as a position coach. if you're good you become a coordinator, and if you succeed doing that then you become a coaching candidate. that OC from Dallas who used to be Aikmans' backup is now a big up-and-comer (i think his last name is Jarret). i don't know of any players excluding catchers who make the jump from player to manager in MLB. former catchers normally get manager's jobs cuz they're considered the most cerebral of all the players.

but in any event, there's always a period of paying your dues. and i mentioned if some small market team wants to take a chance, fine, but not a huge franchise like the Knicks who are coming off of a long period of lackluster play and fan indifference.

[st.cronin]

If it makes no difference who your coach is, because your team will still suck, you may as well go with the cheapest option.

[vtbub]

I agree with you on most of your points, but Stern decided to push stars and not teams. He may be the worst leader in sports.

[Anthony]

If it makes no difference who your coach is, because your team will still suck, you may as well go with the cheapest option.

dude, if money was the issue then the cheapest option was keeping Isaiah as the coach. they're still paying him just to stay away from the players and to be an "advisor" to Donnie Walsh. now they're paying him PLUS possibly Mark Jackson.

how long has Jackson been an announcer? how long has he provided insightful dialogue and shown he's really had a feel for the league and the players? cuz if this is the case, hire Kenny Smith. he's been an announcer much longer.

[MikeVic]

Hire Barkley!!

[Anthony]

I agree with you on most of your points, but Stern decided to push stars and not teams. He may be the worst leader in sports.

you don't understand, i was all set to start following the team again cuz i was set for a fresh start. i loved the Knicks when Ernie Grunfeld was the GM and Dave Checketts was the President. ever since Jimmy Dolan took over the team it's been distgusting. but i wanted to feel like the page was turning and a new era was starting. then they hire Walsh when The Logo expressed interest in the GM job. they name Jackson their top target when D'Antoni, Skiles and Johnson become available. ugh.

but your'e right. it's player-oriented now. that's why the Spurs get no love, however boring they are to watch.

[Daimyo]

Isiah Thomas = no upside
Mark Jackson = unknown upside

There is no possible reward for keeping Isiah, but with Jackson he could be an awesome coach. Knicks will be bad for three years with or without Jackson so the risk of hiring him is non-existent.

Worst case for the Knicks right now would be hiring someone like Carlisle. He's a good coach who might actually get 40 wins and the 8th seed of this horrible roster, But what does that buy you in four years? The team would be tired of his style and you wouldn't have been able to draft any stars.

[Anthony]

Carlisle is all but set to go to the Mavs.


so i guess best case scenario is to openly hope for the Knicks to fail for the next 3-4 years, hope the guys they get in the draft pan out and then for them to fire whomever they've hired this year and replace him with a better alternative, all the time being happy that the Knicks actually have 1st round picks to draft with instead of being the the hands of the Bulls. i guess this is what i have to look forward to.

[rkmsuf]

As a Knicks fan you should be hoping they hire Tom Thibodeau from the C's.

Of course they probably won't but he's the brains behind the whole operation defensively.

He'll probably get a head job somewhere and Knickerbockers would be wise to make a big push for him.

[Galaxy]

Your putting too much stock in the Knicks "franchise" label. They are not the Yankees in terms of reach and fan base.

I would argue that the Lakers and Celtics have a bigger impact.

[Logan]

I'm a Knick fan (about as much as you can be given the patheticness of the team and their fantastic ability to drive fans away) and in no way imaginable are they in the same category as the Lakers and Celtics. When was the last championship? 1973? And before that, the only other was in 1970? There's plenty of franchises that shit all over that.

The Knicks "franchise" is the arena in which they play, not the team.

[Anthony]

even Bill Simmons acknowledges the Knicks as the league's flagship team. i was using his words, not mine.

[Galaxy]

even Bill Simmons acknowledges the Knicks as the league's flagship team. i was using his words, not mine.

Bill Simmons must of been drunk.

[stevew]

It should all turn around when LeBron goes to New York in 2 more years.

Unbelievable that the Knicks still owe a first rounder from Isiah's trading dumbass-ness. I don't think that it transfers until the first time they make the playoffs, however.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Bill Simmons must have been Bill Simmons.

[stevew]

The Knicks have the greatest arena in the greatest basketball town in the USA. That has to count for something.

[Logan]

It should all turn around when LeBron goes to New York in 2 more years.

News coming out that Ratner is having trouble getting his numbers in order for his Brooklyn development because of the credit market downturn is probably the best possible news for the Knicks. If the Nets end up playing in Newark, LeBron won't go there, but he'd be drawn to Brooklyn and Jay-Z.

[path12]

It could be the opening salvo in a secret plan to destroy the Knick fan base and move the team to Seattle.

[Groundhog]

The best option for the Knicks is to sit on their hands, not sign any players to multi-year contracts, and wait until the current guys come off the books. There is no way out of this mess outside of that, and it's going to take around 3 years before any significant moves are possible. So they'd be best just hiring some chump as coach, understand that it's going to be 3 more years of crap, and start scouting those high school sophomore and juniors.

[MrBug708]

Your putting too much stock in the Knicks "franchise" label. They are not the Yankees in terms of reach and fan base.

I would argue that the Lakers and Celtics have a bigger impact.

I think you could make a case for the Lakers to be the second greatest franchise in sports (regardless of sport) just after the Yankees.

HA's claim that the Knicks are the flagship of basketball is laughable at best.

[Galaxy]

I think you could make a case for the Lakers to be the second greatest franchise in sports (regardless of sport) just after the Yankees.

HA's claim that the Knicks are the flagship of basketball is laughable at best.

Do you mean in the US, or globally? Globally, I could argue at least a half-dozen soccer clubs are more valuable. However, in US-base sports leagues, I wouldn't argue with that (maybe tie with the Dallas Cowboys and Washington Redskins).

I don't know any New York fans unless they have some sort of connection with the city. However, I know a lot of regular Laker fans without any sort of connection.

[Maple Leafs]

... (alleged) flagship franchise. we need the big hire, the flashy name. not some guy who's gonna get on-the-job training on the biggest stage in the league...
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/sports/photos/2006/11/22/ferguson-john050206cp.jpg

[MrBug708]

Do you mean in the US, or globally? Globally, I could argue at least a half-dozen soccer clubs are more valuable. However, in US-base sports leagues, I wouldn't argue with that (maybe tie with the Dallas Cowboys and Washington Redskins).

I don't know any New York fans unless they have some sort of connection with the city. However, I know a lot of regular Laker fans without any sort of connection.

The US.

[vtbub]

The US.


Over the Cowboys?

[Anthony]

YESSSSS! (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3386183)

Sources: Knicks could be in competition with Bulls for D'Antoni
By Marc Stein
ESPN.com

The New York Knicks are well aware of Mike D'Antoni's strong desire to coach the Chicago Bulls, as well as Chicago's strong interest in hiring D'Antoni.

They're simply ignoring all that.


NBA coaching sources told ESPN.com on Wednesday that the Knicks continue to regard D'Antoni as their No. 1 target to replace Isiah Thomas and are preparing a "staggering" financial offer they hope will prove too steep for Chicago to compete with, thus convincing D'Antoni to spurn the Bulls.


It was widely assumed in coaching circles -- and even by the Knicks to some degree -- that New York's involvement was pursued by the D'Antoni camp mostly to get Chicago to increase its offer. But sources close to the situation were stressing Wednesday night that the rough monetary estimates in circulation from the Knicks, believed to be $6 million or more annually, are too substantial not to make them a real threat to the Bulls.

So it appears you can scratch one more name from the list of potential successors to fill the expected void left in Phoenix by Mike D'Antoni.

After calling the Lakers' victory over Utah for TNT on Wednesday night in Los Angeles, Collins told ESPN.com that he has not heard from the Suns … and that he would rebuff their interest if they do call.

"Steve has not talked to me, but I have no desire to do that," Collins said, referring to Suns president and former TNT colleague Steve Kerr. "I consider it a compliment when people mention me, but I just love my life now. The work that has to be done and the headaches you have to put up with today, I'm not willing to pay that price. It's just too tough.

"I get a chance to see my children now and my grandchildren. I've probably given up the competitive side of myself, but it's such a tough ride and tough grind unless you have the [clout] of someone like Phil Jackson or Gregg Popovich or Jerry Sloan."

Collins, 56, has coached Chicago, Detroit and Washington and now lives in the Phoenix area, which only increased the volume on recent rumblings that he's a natural Suns candidate. But Collins has also turned down two recent offers to take over the Milwaukee Bucks, first in the summer of 2005 and again last month before the Bucks hired their new GM-coach tandem of John Hammond and Scott Skiles.

-- Marc Stein

Yet sources maintain that Chicago remains D'Antoni's preferred destination and the favorite to land him, now nearly one week since it emerged that the Phoenix Suns coach and the Bulls were a likely match. It's believed that neither the Bulls nor the Knicks have formally extended a contract proposal, but The Chicago Tribune reported on its Web site Wednesday night that the Bulls are determined to "pay D'Antoni only on their teams" and won't engage in a "protracted price war" with the Knicks.

One source told ESPN.com that the Knicks are likely to move quickly if they can't get D'Antoni by following up with an offer to Mark Jackson or the recently fired Avery Johnson, with Jackson believed to hold a considerable edge given his extended status as the front-runner in New York before D'Antoni became available.



Financial might is clearly the best asset New York can sell as a franchise after two 23-59 records in the past three seasons. New team president Donnie Walsh has not been shy about admitting that the Knicks have only just begun work on an extensive makeover that, based on Walsh's vision, would finally create some salary-cap flexibility for this free-spending franchise entering the summer of 2010, when 2003 draftees LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh are scheduled to be free agents.

The chance to work with well-regarded Walsh is another plus point in the Knicks' attempt to beat the Bulls to D'Antoni. Whether that -- along with the money -- is enough of a lure to persuade D'Antoni to revise his Chicago-or-bust stance remains to be seen. Don't forget that the Knicks are unlikely to contend for anything in the near future and would present D'Antoni with an ill-fitting lack of speed and 3-point shooting on a roster headlined by Suns cast-off Stephon Marbury and plodding big men Eddy Curry and Zach Randolph.

Finances, meanwhile, are believed to be the only factor that could cause the Bulls to pull back (or be trumped) now.


ESPN.com reported Tuesday that Bulls general manager John Paxson came away from two interviews with D'Antoni in Phoenix impressed and seriously interested in the coach who wants to leave the Suns in part because of a tense working relationship with Paxson's good friend, Suns president Steve Kerr. Sources said that Paxson huddled Tuesday with Bulls owner Jerry Reinsdorf to discuss the viability of hiring D'Antoni.


Concerns that D'Antoni's offensive bent would clash with Paxson's philosophy -- which is much more conservative and defensively focused, like that of his pal and Phoenix counterpart Kerr -- appear to have been allayed. Sources say that Reinsdorf himself has voiced an interest in the Bulls' going back to a more defined offensive system like they had in their Michael Jordan/Scottie Pippen/Phil Jackson heyday. D'Antoni obviously doesn't run Jackson's famed triangle offense, but Chicago management is said to be intrigued and excited by the possibility of coupling D'Antoni's creativity with several skilled young players who've been linked to Phoenix in trades in recent years (Joakim Noah, Tyrus Thomas and Thabo Sefolosha) as well a budding star (Luol Deng) who was drafted with a pick traded by the Suns to Chicago.


The bigger mystery remains how much Chicago is willing to spend on its next coach, with Reinsdorf already committed to paying Scott Skiles an estimated $4 million next season.


When Skiles was dismissed on Christmas Eve 2007, Reinsdorf agreed to rescind the offset from Skiles' contract and pay him all but $1 million of the remaining $6 million owed. As a result, Skiles walked away with a guaranteed $5 million send-off that was not erased by the estimated $18 million over four years he just received from the Milwaukee Bucks.

Chicago, then, would be spending more than $8 million on head coaches next season if D'Antoni were to receive an annual salary in his current wage bracket. If the Bulls are asked to respond to the Knicks' generosity by taking D'Antoni past the $5 million barrier annually, sources say Chicago could still decide it's more prudent to pursue a more affordable coach with less experience, such as Boston assistant Tom Thibodeau, who is widely credited with providing the schemes that helped Kevin Garnett transform the Celtics' defense this season.

The Tribune reported on its Web site Tuesday night that the Bulls' interest in defense-first Johnson is declining, which could be another indication that the Bulls are focused on landing D'Antoni. The Arizona Republic reported that the Suns would not seek additional compensation when D'Antoni's inevitable departure materializes, simply hoping to relieve themselves of the two seasons left on his Suns deal at $4 million and $4.5 million.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I'd love to see D'Antoni coach in the Eastern Conference. It'll be all fun and games until 75% of his roster is injured from getting knocked the fuck out.

[jbergey22]

Some interesting points being brought up this thread...

Most people are right on Celtics/Lakers right now are the premier money makers for the NBA simply based on tradition. I see no reason the Knicks can't get to that level if they just wouldnt simply keep making horrible decisions. The Celtics/Lakers have been able to market star power, the only thing close to a star the Knicks have created lately was Patrick Ewing(not the most exciting star that ever played in the NBA).

The Celtics 1 year ago werent in that much better shape than the Knicks are right now. Ainge just finally went out of his way to say, screw my theories, its time to win NOW. The Knicks could probably figure out a way to do the same(trade for some aging vets and give up some younger small contracts) BTW, the NBA trading system is flawed in so many ways. I dont even want to talk about how many stupid trades get made in the NBA just so teams can knock off cap space 1-2 years down the road.

IMO Marc Jackson will do a fine job, unless the knicks had plans of getting Phil Jackson, Pat Riley(again), Larry Brown(again). I dont see much more of a difference in most NBA coaches... I think Flip Saunders and Greg Popovich are under rated coaches but I also dont think they will be leaving their current situation.

[MrBug708]

Flip Saunders can't win the big one however

[jbergey22]

What could the Knicks trade? What do they have that other teams would give up a Ray Allen, let alone a KG, for? Crawford? Curry? Randolph? MARBURY?!?!?! They could trade draft picks, but I'd say that they need those. The Celtics at least had players with value to trade.

Nate Robinson, David Lee, Fred Jones, Jamal Crawford, Wilson Chandler would all have some sort of value....

I havent looked at some of the contracts but assuming Crawfords contract doenst have too many years left I can see a playoff contending liking what he brings as a 6th man.

The Celtics basically gave up Al Jefferson and some pieces to get KG because the Twolves wanted to rebuild. Who might be in that situation this year? Heat, Pacers, Mavs???

The Knicks dont have anyone like Al Jefferson nor the draft picks the Celtics did BUT there are many things they could do. A team of 8 ballhogs that play no defense generally doenst win. I would offer up some kind of package with Robinson, Lee and Crawford in it.

[rkmsuf]

The Knicks are like a Rubik's Cube.

[MikeVic]

Fred Jones is tradeable?

[st.cronin]

It would be awesome if the Knicks went empty cupboard, and just cut everybody.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Fred Jones is tradeable?
They could trade him for a kid to help mop up the floor during timeouts.

[Dr. Sak]

Spike Lee...there the Knicks' head coaching problems are solved.

[jbergey22]

So, basically, you would trade all of the players who are any good on the team to add one more piece to the collection of crappy players that you have to hold on to. I just don't see how that would be successful. They'd possibly be able to add an Allen-type player (ie a complimentary piece), but to me that's just digging the hole further.

I am not sure what I would do. The first thing I would do is find them someone they can build around. They dont have a player to build around. They have 2 guys I wouldnt want on my team period(Zack Randolph and Eddy Curry). Out of the 3 guys I was giving up in my trade the only one I would want on my team would be Lee, so in my eyes I wasnt giving up much. Robinson(score first pg, that is too short to play D) and Crawford(SG, with a lousy Shooting %) arent the guys you want on a team with many weaknesses. Im not saying I could turn the team into an instant title contender, I do think they could so some things to get them around the 40-45 win mark without mortgaging anymore of the future.

Some sucker might bite on Randolph, give him up for a couple expiring contracts and if you get a draft choice in it, thats a real good trade

Being still pretty young and playing the Center position, Curry might also be tradable. Might be a good fit for the Mavs...(Curry & ----- for Josh Howard)...if Howard is too much to get just find the best deal you can get to get his contract off the books ASAP.

I believe the 22 mil Marbury makes will be gone after this upcoming season.

My point was Make a decision... Give up on this year, trade anyone with value for expiring contracts and start over... Or find some younger players not making much with potential and get rid of these overpaid clowns that they wont be able to win with.

It would be tough to accomplish this but by know means is it impossible to work out of. The Celtics last year had Piece, Jefferson a 1st round pick and a bunch of guys the Knicks currently have. They were able to turn that into the best record in the NBA. Anything is possible.

[MikeVic]

No one wants Curry or Randolph, unless they take back an even bigger salary and crappier player.

[jbergey22]

No one wants Curry or Randolph, unless they take back an even bigger salary and crappier player.

We know this that doesnt mean other GM's do:) I still think Curry has small value..

[jbergey22]

Do you mean in the US, or globally? Globally, I could argue at least a half-dozen soccer clubs are more valuable. However, in US-base sports leagues, I wouldn't argue with that (maybe tie with the Dallas Cowboys and Washington Redskins).

I don't know any New York fans unless they have some sort of connection with the city. However, I know a lot of regular Laker fans without any sort of connection.

Sadly enough I think the Yankees are #1, followed by Cowboys then probably Lakers US speaking. Red Sox, Redskins are likely pretty high up there as well

[jbergey22]

Fred Jones is tradeable?

I think Isiah Thomas proved that ANYONE is tradable.

[Anthony]

i could see Curry for Howard as the main pieces of a deal. that really works. Mavs aren't sold on Eric Dampier as their center, considering he was brought in due to Avery Johnson.

[Rich1033]

I think Isiah Thomas proved that ANYONE is tradable.

Thats only if Isiah Thomas gets another GM job.

So basically the Knicks only hope if for someone to hire Isiah so they can trade all their crappy players back to him.

[Groundhog]

Knicks have zero tradeable assets that could bring back anything of value.

Like I said, they have one and only one option; sit on their hands and wait a few years so they can start fresh.

With guys like Lee, Balkman, re-sign them if you can get them cheap, if not, let them walk. They are just role players (albeit decent ones), but you don't want to let them get in the way of bringing on some talent via FA.

[stevew]

Looking at thier roster, they have about 4-5 "winning" type guys that I could use in a rotation.

Crawford-Would be a great 6th man, but not an ideal starter
Lee-Either as a starter or first big off the bench
Chandler-solid bench depth
Balkman-good intangibles player, 9th man type.
Jeffries-way overpaid, but he'd be an okay bench rotation player. 10mpg

So, ideally they need 4-5 "better" guys, and I really don't see it happening anytime soon. For their sake, they need to get either Rose or Beasley out of this draft.

Curry, Randolph, Starbury, Richardson, et al are all part of the problem, and need to go. Ideally Starbury should be pretty tradeable this season, but in the long run they may as well let him expire. Or offer him like 19 of his 22m to walk away before the season starts, and not poison the team.

[bulletsponge]

Knicks have zero tradeable assets that could bring back anything of value.

Like I said, they have one and only one option; sit on their hands and wait a few years so they can start fresh.

With guys like Lee, Balkman, re-sign them if you can get them cheap, if not, let them walk. They are just role players (albeit decent ones), but you don't want to let them get in the way of bringing on some talent via FA.


yep i said this 2 years ago. they were years away from even begining rebuilding Thomas ruined that franchise so badly. what they want to do more than anything is stay waaaaayyyy under tha cap the years Lebron, Wade and Paul become free agents.

[mauchow]

I'm pretty sure that D'Antoni is using the Knicks as leverage to get more out of the Bulls. I can't see why he'd want the headache that is the Knicks for the next two or three years.

If I had more money, honey!

[rkmsuf]

Anyone who takes Curry on their squad isn't qualified to run a YMCA team.

[Anthony]

they're better off keeping Marbury. at some point these bad contracts need to come off the books. $22million coming off the books *this* season is huge. he's worth more on the team than off it. and it's not like he's chopped liver, he's still a solid PG.

Curry still has trade value - he's young and big. just needs a smaller market. people wanted to make him a vocal leader in the mold of Ewing but that's not his style. and it was also a bad idea to try to run the offense through him. he just needs to be one of those guys who gets a huge bulk of his pts off of put-backs. offensively he's better than Ben Wallace ever was. Curry should be kept - even if only to eventually get his contract off the books, Randolph needs to go. and Crawford should be a 6th man on the Knicks, he's too small to be a viable starting SG. i want Quentin Richardson to contract the AIDS virus.

[rkmsuf]

they're better off keeping Marbury. at some point these bad contracts need to come off the books. $22million coming off the books *this* season is huge. he's worth more on the team than off it. and it's not like he's chopped liver, he's still a solid PG.

Curry still has trade value - he's young and big. just needs a smaller market. people wanted to make him a vocal leader in the mold of Ewing but that's not his style. and it was also a bad idea to try to run the offense through him. he just needs to be one of those guys who gets a huge bulk of his pts off of put-backs. offensively he's better than Ben Wallace ever was. Curry should be kept - even if only to eventually get his contract off the books, Randolph needs to go. and Crawford should be a 6th man on the Knicks, he's too small to be a viable starting SG. i want Quentin Richardson to contract the AIDS virus.

I think you've completely lost it.

Man, talk about drinking some kool aid. Curry and Marbury are two of the most useless players in the league. To even suggest either one has any basketball value is ponderous. Financially maybe you have reasons to keep them but basketball wise the reason you keep them is to win 23 games a year.

[Anthony]

dude, i'm just saying. they're not winning any championships this year. so if you know that going in, there's no incentive to shoot for the stars. that's when you wind up getting the #15 or #18 overall pick - good enough to not have a top 10 pick, bad enough to miss out on the playoffs. the only upside is at least you get a HUGE chunk of change coming off the books in Marbury, who, let's face it, is very solid offensively. not a viable PG, but the guy can score. Curry is a decent big man. not a rock you'd build your franchise on, but with Shaq gone Curry is one of the few viable big men in the East. Knicks gave up too much for him to just send him packing. they lost out on a lottery pick for this man, might as well make it worthwhile.

here's even better news:

ESPN The Magazine's Ric Bucher, quoting a source close to D'Antoni, reported on SportsCenter early Friday that D'Antoni is leaning toward taking the New York job.

It was widely assumed -- even by the Knicks to some degree -- that New York's emergence as a rival to Chicago was pursued by the D'Antoni camp strictly to get the Bulls to make a more substantial bid. That perception is changing. The word Thursday night in NBA coaching circles suggested that D'Antoni is ready to team up with Walsh if his talks with the Bulls dissolve.

[rkmsuf]

dude, i'm just saying. they're not winning any championships this year. so if you know that going in, there's no incentive to shoot for the stars. that's when you wind up getting the #15 or #18 overall pick - good enough to not have a top 10 pick, bad enough to miss out on the playoffs. the only upside is at least you get a HUGE chunk of change coming off the books in Marbury, who, let's face it, is very solid offensively. not a viable PG, but the guy can score. Curry is a decent big man. not a rock you'd build your franchise on, but with Shaq gone Curry is one of the few viable big men in the East. Knicks gave up too much for him to just send him packing. they lost out on a lottery pick for this man, might as well make it worthwhile.

here's even better news:

I'm with you until the bolded part.

[Anthony]

who's to say D'Antoni wasn't using the *Bulls* to get the Knicks to dip into their deep pockets? Knicks play on the biggest stage in the league, countless endorsement opportunities can really augment any healthy contract you get. what really can the Bulls offer - a slightly better chance than the Knicks of reaching the playoffs just to lose to the Cavs or Celtics for the next 3 years? smaller market (by comparison), and the same amount of superstars as the Knicks (zero).

[Pumpy Tudors]

I haven't followed the Marbury garbage for a while. Is he even willing to play another game for the Knicks?

[Galaxy]

Remember, you have to find "equal" trade value (in terms of making the contract numbers work) in the NBA. The Knicks don't offer value in that department for any team to make it work.

On another note, here's an interesting "state of the team" blog by Mark Cuban: http://www.blogmaverick.com/2008/05/02/talking-mavs/

[Anthony]

YESSSSS!!!

D'Antoni accepts Knicks' offer.
(http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3389987)

i'm friggin happy now. everything is gonna be all right.

[DeToxRox]

Eddy Curry will love this. Now he isn't even required to try and play defense.

HA, D'Antoni will not win you a title. His teams don't play that kind of ball. You'll play exciting games though.

[DaddyTorgo]

d'antoni doesn't have the pieces to play his style of ball in NY either

[DeToxRox]

The Knicks will do whatever they can now to try and draft Derek Rose. I'd watch the Knicks vs Nuggets though to see a 175-170 game.

[Eaglesfan27]

d'antoni doesn't have the pieces to play his style of ball in NY either

Eddy Curry will love this. Now he isn't even required to try and play defense.

HA, D'Antoni will not win you a title. His teams don't play that kind of ball. You'll play exciting games though.

The Knicks will do whatever they can now to try and draft Derek Rose. I'd watch the Knicks vs Nuggets though to see a 175-170 game.

Agreed with all of this. I can't believe he chose NY, but I don't see it being a good fit unless he is willing to tolerate losing for at least 2 years and has been given assurances by management that his losing will be tolerated for 2 years. This team isn't getting turned around any quicker than that. I wonder if it was just the money, or if it was the NY scene that got him.

[Logan]

He goes from a team with the PG perfectly suited for his offense to a team that doesn't have a PG suitable for a JV squad in the suburbs.

I'm not confident that he'll get the pieces to turn it around, but what it should do is encourage cheap players to come play for him as the team goes through their (hopeful) purge.

[hoopsguy]

As a Bulls fan, I was nervous about the amount of money they were talking about with D'Antoni. I think that Nash made him more than he made Nash over the last few years. Time will tell, I guess ... I just didn't consider D'Antoni to a knock-out hire. Great record the last few years, fun style of basketball, but a lot of money to pay for a guy whose style hasn't won playoff basketball.

I don't think the Bulls roster was any better suited to winning quickly - under D'Antoni - than the Knicks. Kirk Hinrich leading that offense? No way in hell. They are shipping out Duhon, who was the most legitimate PG in terms of running an offense. Gordon and Hughes aren't exactly guys that move the ball freely, although they'll both be more than happy to shoot it quickly.

I don't see a lot of pieces on the Bulls roster that scream "starter on a title contender". Deng fits that category, maybe Gooden as your 4th/5th best starter. Nocioni as a bench player (7th man?) and perhaps Gordon as a 6th man, but he doesn't want that role or that money. Hinrich isn't getting paid like a 6th man, but doesn't play like a starter on a good team at either guard spot.

Guess I've hijacked the thread with "Depressed (Complaints of a Bulls Fan)".

[Logan]

As a Bulls fan, I was nervous about the amount of money they were talking about with D'Antoni. I think that Nash made him more than he made Nash over the last few years. Time will tell, I guess ... I just didn't consider D'Antoni to a knock-out hire. Great record the last few years, fun style of basketball, but a lot of money to pay for a guy whose style hasn't won playoff basketball.

The good thing for the Knicks is that this is roughly a 50% discount from what their coach cost them last year. You know, because of a $12 million sexual harassment settlement. So we have that going for us, which is nice.

[Izulde]

Every time I see a thread like this, I get the urge to start a DDS:PB dynasty with the Knicks roster.

[Young Drachma]

D'Antoni is a surprise hire. I'm guessing he was just a 'proven' pick and that they really wanted Mark Jackson, but didn't want him to get booed out of town. I doubt D'Antoni lasts the full length of the deal and his style will have to be tweaked, as the guys he has aren't team players, aren't horses and I doubt they'll really light up the Garden.

But I'm sure the bright lights of the city attracted him and rightfully so, I guess.

[stevew]

The good thing for the Knicks is that this is roughly a 50% discount from what their coach cost them last year. You know, because of a $12 million sexual harassment settlement. So we have that going for us, which is nice.

Don't forget the 6-10 million they are paying brown not to coach.

[Groundhog]

If I had a choice between Bulls and Knicks, I know who I would have picked. Wow.

[Neuqua]

If I had a choice between Bulls and Knicks, I know who I would have picked. Wow.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[MrBug708]

I figured D'Antoni left because the Suns didn't really want him there anymore

[miami_fan]

I figured D'Antoni left because the Suns didn't really want him there anymore

I believe that is the case as well. The question is why the Knicks? I don't think that this is that bad of a move. First there is the money part. Becoming the 3rd highest paid head coach in the league without even making it to the NBA finals would be pretty hard to turn down. Second, this is an opportunity for D'Antoni to prove himself as a coach. Obviously, the Knicks roster as currently constructed does not fit the style that he showed in Phoenix. But talent-wise I still (naively?) believe that this team has the talent to be an eighth seed in the East. Does he have the ability to adjust to the talent that he has or does he just coach one style of play? Finally, after the Isiah era, I think the Knicks and their fanbase will be more patient than the Bulls and their fanbase would have been with D'Antoni. The Bulls were a "team of the future" before last season. I think the short term expectations would have been much higher with the Bulls. I think D'Antoni would have been expected to be turn them into the Suns next season. With the Knicks, most rational people know this is at least a two year rebuilding process. The question is how many of those rational people are Knicks fans;)

[Anthony]

he's the 1st legitimate coach since Pat Riley, we haven't had that big, sexy hire since him. he instantly becomes one of the better coaches in the East. at least now the Knicks have that going for them. D'Antoni won the Italian League championship twice, so he's a proven winner (ok, not on the NBA level, but he's won). when you got a team that wasn't good offensively OR defensively, i don't think you can make an arguement "D'Antoni will have the Knicks scoring a lot but they won't be playing defense or rebounding at all" - i rather a team that excels at one thing than a team that can't do either. Knicks aren't gonna be winning any championships, but if you followed a team based on if it could win a championship then you'd really only have 4 or 5 teams to focus on. the point isn't to win a championship (that's the icing on the cake), the point is to put an entertaining product on the court that people want to pay money to see. if you offered someone tickets to go see a game i don't think you'll ever overhear someone say "i'll pass, while the team may be really fun to watch i just don't think they're gonna win a championship this year so what's the point in following them?".

it wasn't too long ago the Warriors were a laughing stock in the league, one Don Nelson (who, btw, is another offensive guru just like the guy the Knicks hired :) ) and a rejuvenated Baron Davis later and all of a sudden the Warriors are a fun team to watch and can do damage in the playoffs (when they make the playoffs). Knicks aren't that far away from where the Warriors were 2 seasons ago. Baron Davis was considered to have been exiled to the Warriors, on the way to having a washed up career. now all of a sudden he's a difference maker. Knicks are in the same boat as the Warriors were, at least the Knicks are now pointing the boat in the right direction. D'Antoni is the 1st step.

[Groundhog]

You could put Red Auerbach on the Knicks bench with Phil Jackson and Pat Riley as assistants and the Knicks would struggle for the eighth seed in the East.

It's at least a 3-year rebuilding process the way I see it - better to let Mark Jackson/random college coach or current assistant coach handle the coaching duties during that patch and then bring in a big name when you've got cap room and some young lottery talent to work with.

[Groundhog]

it wasn't too long ago the Warriors were a laughing stock in the league, one Don Nelson (who, btw, is another offensive guru just like the guy the Knicks hired :) ) and a rejuvenated Baron Davis later and all of a sudden the Warriors are a fun team to watch and can do damage in the playoffs (when they make the playoffs). Knicks aren't that far away from where the Warriors were 2 seasons ago. Baron Davis was considered to have been exiled to the Warriors, on the way to having a washed up career. now all of a sudden he's a difference maker. Knicks are in the same boat as the Warriors were, at least the Knicks are now pointing the boat in the right direction. D'Antoni is the 1st step.

The Warriors made a trade that, even when it happened, seemed unbelievable. I doubt the Knicks will find their own personal "Indiana" - not with the guys they have. The guys the Warriors got rid of were just overpaid, and they didn't have nearly the kind of baggage that the Knicks players do.

[Anthony]

if they would've hired Mark Jackson and the Knicks inevitably faltered, everyone would've said "well, Jackson is learning on the job, its to be expected". now if the Knicks start to stink up the joint i think you'll hear more of "well, it certainly isn't the coach, so it must be [insert shitty Knicks player here". at least D'Antoni has a proven system, what the hell was Jackson gonna be doing. is he a defense-oriented coach? is he an x's and o's coach? does he design great offenses? no one knows what Jackson would've brought to the table other than a fresh face.

[NYFAN]

A few thoughts:

#1
D'Antoni will give New York an exciting brand of basketball, during a time when it will be impossible to win. This will at least keep the crowd excited, and into games. Not many teams are really designed to just run and gun, so with a few smart acquisitions the Knicks can potentially score a few upsets just by running; a lot.

#2
D'Antoni gives the Knicks a recognizable, reputable face to the organization. This will allow them to attract free agents for less than market value (opportunity to play in a fun style, and earn a boat load in endorsements), and also keeps the fans at bay for a period of time while we deal with the "rebuilding".

#3
NY Fans have been BEGGING to start from scratch. The vast majority of fans will *tolerate* losing for 2-3 years as long as they don't see us taking on additional contracts, trading away picks etc... and making smart decisions in the draft, free agency, and trading opportunities.

#4
Walsh is too smart to do this right now, but don't be shocked to see Mark Jackson on the bench as an assistant in 2-3 years. D'Antoni is the face that Walsh wants now, but I think Jackson (or a proven playoff coach) is what Walsh will want down the line. It would not shock me to see Jackson end up as an assistant for D'Antoni (or maybe another team, with a recommendation from Walsh) and in 5 years sitting on the Knicks bench bringing in the big pay check.

#5
D'Antoni is an international guy at heart (spent a looong time in Europe), and NY is one of the most diverse cities in the world. It's arguably the biggest, most demanding sports market (as a whole) in the world. Combine that with Donnie Walsh, one of the most respected and liked executives in the NBA, and you have a pretty positive situation. When you add to the fact that NOBODY expects you to win, and you are GUARANTEED $24+ million, you have a deal that is pretty hard to pass on.

[Eaglesfan27]

he's the 1st legitimate coach since Pat Riley, we haven't had that big, sexy hire since him. he instantly becomes one of the better coaches in the East.

Very short term memory. Larry Brown is a vagabond, but he is also one of the most winning coaches in the NBA who has improved every team but the Knicks and is certainly a legitimate coach.

[Galaxy]

#1
D'Antoni will give New York an exciting brand of basketball, during a time when it will be impossible to win. This will at least keep the crowd excited, and into games. Not many teams are really designed to just run and gun, so with a few smart acquisitions the Knicks can potentially score a few upsets just by running; a lot.

#2
D'Antoni gives the Knicks a recognizable, reputable face to the organization. This will allow them to attract free agents for less than market value (opportunity to play in a fun style, and earn a boat load in endorsements), and also keeps the fans at bay for a period of time while we deal with the "rebuilding".

#3
NY Fans have been BEGGING to start from scratch. The vast majority of fans will *tolerate* losing for 2-3 years as long as they don't see us taking on additional contracts, trading away picks etc... and making smart decisions in the draft, free agency, and trading opportunities.

#4
Walsh is too smart to do this right now, but don't be shocked to see Mark Jackson on the bench as an assistant in 2-3 years. D'Antoni is the face that Walsh wants now, but I think Jackson (or a proven playoff coach) is what Walsh will want down the line. It would not shock me to see Jackson end up as an assistant for D'Antoni (or maybe another team, with a recommendation from Walsh) and in 5 years sitting on the Knicks bench bringing in the big pay check.

#5
D'Antoni is an international guy at heart (spent a looong time in Europe), and NY is one of the most diverse cities in the world. It's arguably the biggest, most demanding sports market (as a whole) in the world. Combine that with Donnie Walsh, one of the most respected and liked executives in the NBA, and you have a pretty positive situation. When you add to the fact that NOBODY expects you to win, and you are GUARANTEED $24+ million, you have a deal that is pretty hard to pass on.

The problem is, you need to get the right players to run the system. I'm guessing that quality deep off the bench is more critical in a run-and-gun system that requires a lot of stamina.

Not many players are going to be signing for "less then market value". Unless they are a veteran player who are near the end of their career that is looking get a championship, they are going to go where the money is. Endorsements are nice, but a great basketball player will get endorsements where ever he is.

I think basketball is the sport where talent out weights coaching by a large margin.

I hope the Knicks can get it together in the next two to three years. If they can copy what the Suns did, they'll be a lot of fun in a much-weaker Eastern Conference.

[Groundhog]

So, do we see Nate Robinson playing 40 minutes at the PG spot and throwing alley-oops to himself off the court? That'd add some excitement to those double-digit losses!

[Neon_Chaos]

Watch QRich revel in the limelight that his previous coach in Phoenix is going to give him.

[Anthony]

Very short term memory. Larry Brown is a vagabond, but he is also one of the most winning coaches in the NBA who has improved every team but the Knicks and is certainly a legitimate coach.

Larry Brown isn't the big sexy hire. he's a guy that you're happy to get cuz he has name value, but you know it always, inevitably won't end well. the man walked away from the championship winning Detroit Pistons, of all teams. Larry Brown is a short term fix, he's the guy you hope will change the face of your team and leave it in a good shape for the next coach, cuz you know Brown isn't staying long.

everytime Brown gets hired, it's always billed as "the next stop on his journey". Pat Riley, now that was a huge, big sexy hire. don't get no more sexy than a coach who has ample amounts of mouse/gel in his hair than a Solid Gold dancer.

[Dr. Sak]

Larry Brown took the Sixers to the championship game and then left the team in the mess it is still trying to fix today. I wouldn't want him anywhere around my team.

[rkmsuf]

coaches are pretty overrated in terms of importance in the nba.

unless of course you have a total buffoon. in this case the knicks are upgrading with pretty much anyone currently alive. and even that might be debatable since the corpse of Red might have been able to achieve the same results this year.

[NYFAN]

The problem is, you need to get the right players to run the system. I'm guessing that quality deep off the bench is more critical in a run-and-gun system that requires a lot of stamina.

Not many players are going to be signing for "less then market value". Unless they are a veteran player who are near the end of their career that is looking get a championship, they are going to go where the money is. Endorsements are nice, but a great basketball player will get endorsements where ever he is.

I think basketball is the sport where talent out weights coaching by a large margin.


Yes and no. You can get guys for less than market value if you sell them on the right things:

- You're going to play a lot
- You're going to play in a system that fits your skill set
- You're going to make more in the long term, because you're going to be more productive in the short term than you would have somewhere else
- You're going to get significantly more endorsements, and outside financial opportunities as a good (not great) player in NY than you will in Milwaukee etc...

Walsh needs to go out and get guys who are flying under the radar, but fit our need. There are tons of guys out there that can be effective players (not stars, not all-stars, not even all around good starters by any mean) but semi-effective starters, who fit this scheme. This is how MOST players want to play, and are most comfortable playing. Finding a few that bring the right qualities to build a team that can run a little bit isn't that hard. Finding a team that can do it and win a championship is really hard, but as discussed, that's not the goal.

I'm not saying we're going to win 40 games, I'm just saying that we may win 25-35 and there are going to be a few upsets when we beat a team who is built to slow it down.

[Groundhog]

coaches are pretty overrated in terms of importance in the nba.


To an extent, yes. It's always tough to command respect when pretty much everyone on the team earns more than you.

[Groundhog]

Will be interested to see what the Knicks do in the draft. Obviously Rose is the no-brainer if they luck out in the lottery, but if they pick at 5 there are a lot of ways they can go. Do you get a scoring guard like Bayless/Mayo/Gordon, all who would probably thrive in D'Antoni's style of play but don't really address team needs, or a bruiser like Brook Lopez (imagine that, a NY bigman who can rebound AND play D! It's been a while...), or a dreaded "potential" guy like Anthony Randolph or Danilo Gallinari?