Ethical dilemma - $$$

[Suburban Rhythm]

Coming to the wise and ethical members of FOFC with a dilemma.

I have Penguins tickets (partial season). Someone I work with bought my tickets to Game 2 vs Ottawa, opening series. He gave me $100 a piece. That occurred Weds. I gave him tickets, he gave me cash.

The game was Friday. Friday afternoon while I am in meetings, he's looking for me - asking co-wokers where i was, leaving emails/IMs - with an "urgent" question. Could I still sell my tickets on Ticketmaster for the game that night. He got another set of tickets

I could, you can post them up to 2 hours before game time, Ticketmaster keeps 10% fee. So he's at my desk, we list them at $115 a piece and keep checking throughout the day. About 2:30, he calls asking if I can pull them back off the site, he found a buyer.

He comes to my desk, I go into my listing...and it would not allow me to update/cancel since someone was viewing them. I kept refreshing....and they sold online. When the sale occurs online, the money is deposited to any outstanding invoices (such as my regular season tix next year).

He's pissed, since he had a buyer who already gave him cash...and now he's got to return it.

After thinking about it for a couple days I realize I made $400 on the tix-- the $200 cash he gave me...and the $200 credited to my 08-09 tickets.

He has never asked for the $200 back...and now has given two weeks notice (last day is next week).

So I ask you...what is my obligation. Hand him back $200 cash? Wait until he asks?

[rkmsuf]

put 66.50 in one envelope and 133.50 in another envelope and see what happens

[Lorena]

yeah give him the $$

[Maple Leafs]

Give him the cash.

[Dr. Sak]

Give him the money.

[BrianD]

Unless I am mistaken, and ethical dilemma is when you have two contradicting "right" options and have to figure out what to do. The choices of doing the right thing or doing the wrong thing isn't really an ethical dilemma. The only way this becomes an ethical dilemma is if that $200 is the difference between your family starving and surviving.

[MikeVic]

Yeah, it's a huge pet peeve when someone owes me money, and I have to bring it up. You owe me the money, so pay me. Don't make me come asking for money that's already supposed to be mine.

[Anthony]

i wouldn't, but to be honest i wouldn't know when to feel safe to actually spend it. you'd have to have that $200 sitting around in the off-chance he comes asking for it within those 2 weeks.

[wade moore]

Unless I am mistaken, and ethical dilemma is when you have two contradicting "right" options and have to figure out what to do. The choices of doing the right thing or doing the wrong thing isn't really an ethical dilemma. The only way this becomes an ethical dilemma is if that $200 is the difference between your family starving and surviving.

Spot on.

This isn't some sort of dilemma. He gave you money for the tickets, but you sold them and gave them to someone else. This is his money.

[TroyF]

Unless I am mistaken, and ethical dilemma is when you have two contradicting "right" options and have to figure out what to do. The choices of doing the right thing or doing the wrong thing isn't really an ethical dilemma. The only way this becomes an ethical dilemma is if that $200 is the difference between your family starving and surviving.

Best post of the thread. Give the money back.

[Anthony]

if you're never going to see this person again, keep the money. if this was a friend of yours, obviously different story. instead of always introducing ethics and morals into every situation, why not just appreciate things for what they are - fortunate turns of events. maybe you did something good a decade ago, and this is karma giving you a kiss. maybe that guy screwed someone over for money a year or two ago, and this is karma shitting in his mailbox. maybe you, like myself, are a lucky person.

you can't turn your back on luck. i certainly don't. i'm the luckiest person i know and i give thanks all the time when Lady Luck blows me a kiss.

[rkmsuf]

bad mojo though if you don't give it back

[Lorena]

eh, i don't think karma works that way. on the contrary, if he *doesn't* give the $$ back, he'll have bad karma. maybe his car will break down, he'll have some unexpected expense pop up.. no, definitely give the $$ back, don't take your chances.

[Anthony]

case in point. i was purchasing my wife's engagement ring 8 years ago. the deal was for x amount of $$, however the dealer would've charged me $2000 less had i paid in cash. i didn't have all cash so i was responsbile for the full price. the dealer put down how much i paid for the ring, but nowhere did he put on the receipt that i still owed $2K, he put on the receipt the price i owed based on if i was paying in all cash (which i wasn't). so when i went to pick up the ring the next day, i didn't volunteer to pay the extra $2000 and since my receipt didn't mention $2K outstanding i wasn't asked for it. i got the ring, made a left as i walked outside the door and then scampered quickly to the train station.

this wasn't a moral dilemna. this was me being lucky. this was Lady Luck rewarding me for using my money towards my wife's engagement ring instead of the Ford Mustang i always wanted to buy back then.

[sooner333]

While you should give the money back...that is really annoying to have someone back out like that the day of the game. What if it wasn't so easy to sell the tickets? I mean, I guess you could have just said no and left him with the tickets and you with the money, but it just seems like a situation that could end with people mad at each other.

[Anthony]

i operate on a different level. i look at things on a universal level, not this small little angle of "i owe a guy i will never see again $200 so i must give it back to him". on a universal level things and motions were put into place so that one day this guy, who maybe was a prick and did more bad than good, could give Suburban Rhythm $200 and forget about it and then shortly thereafter never have to see him again. things were put into place a while ago so that SR could get $200 which is reality is a reward for something good he's done. or maybe SR is a prick, but there is someone else out there who will eventually get the money through more courses of actions. fate and karma are having a BBQ at this moment plotting how to best get that $200 from the initial guy to the place where it'll ultimately go. and as soon as SR goes "should i give it back" fate and karma smack their foreheads in disgust saying "he just isn't seeing the bigger picture!!!".

[Sweed]

Unless I am mistaken, and ethical dilemma is when you have two contradicting "right" options and have to figure out what to do. The choices of doing the right thing or doing the wrong thing isn't really an ethical dilemma. The only way this becomes an ethical dilemma is if that $200 is the difference between your family starving and surviving.

+

Yeah, it's a huge pet peeve when someone owes me money, and I have to bring it up. You owe me the money, so pay me. Don't make me come asking for money that's already supposed to be mine.

++

Spot on.

This isn't some sort of dilemma. He gave you money for the tickets, but you sold them and gave them to someone else. This is his money.

+++

[Fidatelo]

Don't be a douchebag, give the money back.

[BrianD]

i operate on a different level. i look at things on a universal level, not this small little angle of "i owe a guy i will never see again $200 so i must give it back to him". on a universal level things and motions were put into place so that one day this guy, who maybe was a prick and did more bad than good, could give Suburban Rhythm $200 and forget about it and then shortly thereafter never have to see him again. things were put into place a while ago so that SR could get $200 which is reality is a reward for something good he's done. or maybe SR is a prick, but there is someone else out there who will eventually get the money through more courses of actions. fate and karma are having a BBQ at this moment plotting how to best get that $200 from the initial guy to the place where it'll ultimately go. and as soon as SR goes "should i give it back" fate and karma smack their foreheads in disgust saying "he just isn't seeing the bigger picture!!!".

That is rationalization bullshit. A person doesn't have to do the right thing, but be honest enough with yourself to realize that you are choosing to not do the right thing. If SR chooses not to mention the money, I won't consider him a bad person. This is the kind of situation that really won't have any measurable effect on anyone involved. I just have more respect for people who understand they are doing something unethical than people who try to rationalize it away as being morally ambiguous.

[jbergey22]

No dilemna here. Not giving the money back is stealing. You sold a product he didnt get. The money goes to him.

[jbergey22]

The fact that people can even rationalize this to make it seem like its ok is really sad.

[jbergey22]

i operate on a different level. i look at things on a universal level, not this small little angle of "i owe a guy i will never see again $200 so i must give it back to him". on a universal level things and motions were put into place so that one day this guy, who maybe was a prick and did more bad than good, could give Suburban Rhythm $200 and forget about it and then shortly thereafter never have to see him again. things were put into place a while ago so that SR could get $200 which is reality is a reward for something good he's done. or maybe SR is a prick, but there is someone else out there who will eventually get the money through more courses of actions. fate and karma are having a BBQ at this moment plotting how to best get that $200 from the initial guy to the place where it'll ultimately go. and as soon as SR goes "should i give it back" fate and karma smack their foreheads in disgust saying "he just isn't seeing the bigger picture!!!".


What are you talking about? This has nothing to do with the person getting the 200 doing a good or a bad thing. Because of the fact that you think this way doesnt mean I think anything bad should happen to you. Its more about principals than anything. Society in general lacks a lot in this department but that doesnt mean everyone has the right to just screw someone else because of it.

[Anthony]

how is anyone getting screwed over? the $200 is there whenever the guy wants it. what, SR has to remind the other guy to shake off after pissing too?

[MikeVic]

It's his fucking money, he shouldn't have to remind SR to get it!

[PurdueBrad]

Misread something and voted poorly, give him his money back.

[st.cronin]

I would keep the money, and then I would steal his car or his wife, whichever is hotter.

[st.cronin]

dola

Also, I would beat him up if he asked for the money back.

[Mustang]

I'd keep it and use the money to go into pro wrestling as 'The Karmatic Douchebag'

[rkmsuf]

Two words:

Martingale System



Do both of you a favor.

[Kodos]

Keep the money, but have the other guy take it out in trade with Hell Atlantic.

[Suburban Rhythm]

I think I am taking rkmsuf's advice, and going with the Wink Martindale System.

I'm creating an elaborate game show based on tic-tac-toe, and will give him the cash back if he wins.

[JonInMiddleGA]

There are situations where Absolute Right and Wrong exist and claims to the contrary are nothing more than moral relativism intended to justify unethical behavior.

Fixed that for you.

[Mustang]

I'm creating an elaborate game show based on tic-tac-toe, and will give him the cash back if he wins.


Count me in

http://www.xanfan.com/trading/tictacdough80.jpg

[MrIllini]

Buy him a $200 gift card for Ticketmaster.

[Suburban Rhythm]

So get this...

As I mentioned, this guy is leaving as of next Friday -obligatory Ice Cube photo:

http://www.blackfilm.com/0111/nextfriday/splash.gif

as is usualy practice here, they are passing around a card to sign, and an envelope to contribute to a going away gift/party (which, is another poll altogether, but I hate that!)

So I am thinking of putting the $200 into the card and signing it "here's your money for the tix"

[Dr. Sak]

Instead put in a card that says "A donation of $200 was made in your name to the Human Fund"

[MikeVic]

No, someone will take it!

[st.cronin]

Better yet, sign it "here's your money" but DON'T PUT THE MONEY IN!!!!!

[Capital]

No real delimma here...I would give him back his money without him asking...

[Suburban Rhythm]

I know the right thing to do is give the money back.

But as mentioned somewhere, he sought me out to list them online again (since they are in my name, he could do this on his own)...then an hour later is asking me to pull them back off since he found a buyer here.

He watched me as it showed that had sold and the $$$ showed deposited to my account.

So, I was thinking I could consider the $200 as my own service charge for dealing with him all day.

[rkmsuf]

I know the right thing to do is give the money back.

But as mentioned somewhere, he sought me out to list them online again (since they are in my name, he could do this on his own)...then an hour later is asking me to pull them back off since he found a buyer here.

He watched me as it showed that had sold and the $$$ showed deposited to my account.

So, I was thinking I could consider the $200 as my own service charge for dealing with him all day.

Maybe he digs you. Let me ask you this. Is his favorite NHL player Roman Hammerlick?

[stevew]

I know the right thing to do is give the money back.

But as mentioned somewhere, he sought me out to list them online again (since they are in my name, he could do this on his own)...then an hour later is asking me to pull them back off since he found a buyer here.

He watched me as it showed that had sold and the $$$ showed deposited to my account.

So, I was thinking I could consider the $200 as my own service charge for dealing with him all day.


I think he needs to pay a bit of a douchebag penalty, maybe not the whole 200, though.

[Maple Leafs]

So, I was thinking I could consider the $200 as my own service charge for dealing with him all day.
Nope.

[Ksyrup]

eh, i don't think karma works that way.

Well, maybe not, but I bet if he read his horoscope, there'd be something in there that vaguely resembles a reason that he should keep the cash! If not karma, surely the stars aligning is a good enough reason to keep money you owe someone else, right?

This sounds like the kinda case tailor-made for Judge Judy. I've never understood why the obviously wrong person agrees to go on the show. Even if the appearance fee makes what you owe a wash, you still get publicly humiliated.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Maybe he digs you. Let me ask you this. Is his favorite NHL player Roman Hammerlick?

I think it's actually Hakan Lube...I mean Loob.

[st.cronin]

Here's an idea: Buy 200 dollars worth of gas cards. Offer him the choice of the gas cards, or $125 in cash.

[Suburban Rhythm]

...or if I could figure out how to fudge a ticket invoice, I could convince him I never got the $200 for the tickets sold online.

[Ksyrup]

Once he acknowledges that there is a debt in any way, he owes the entire amount. I mean, he owes it either way, but when you acknowledge it to the other party, that's the end. You can't say, "Well, I owe you $200, but since you didn't pursue it and I was gracious enough to bring it up now, I'll give you the choice of 2 lesser options. Since I'm such a nice guy and all." That would be douchebaggery of the highest order.

[sabotai]

Well, technically I'd say you shouldn't give him the $200 for the tix. He bought them from you, so the tix were his. You sold them online for him, so you should give him whatever the amount was you sold them for, which would be $230 ($115 each). So you actually owe him $230, take about $30 off for yourself as a "listing fee" and you owe him $200 for selling his tickets online for him.

[Karlifornia]

Simple, how much of a fuckstick do you mind being? If you consider yourself a stand-up guy, and want to maintain that, then give you should have given the money back as soon as you found out about it.

That time has passed, and you're still asking the question. That automatically puts you in a lower/different level than the pristine, honorable hero guy.

So, you can either stay where you're at by giving the money back, or you can go to a completely different level of shadiness by keeping it. It's not like you're committing a violent crime or anything. It's all about how much of an asshole you're comfortable with being.

[korme]

I like Sub's mischevious ways. He was promised a sell, then the guy reniged on his deal. What, he wants the tix unless he can find a better deal later? Weak.

I am with st. cronin's (sarcastic) idea of signing "Here's your money" and then not putting it in, then say someone must have taken it. That would be cause for a peaceful office environment.

[miked]

...or if I could figure out how to fudge a ticket invoice, I could convince him I never got the $200 for the tickets sold online.

JimmyWnt could help.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Well, technically I'd say you shouldn't give him the $200 for the tix. He bought them from you, so the tix were his. You sold them online for him, so you should give him whatever the amount was you sold them for, which would be $230 ($115 each). So you actually owe him $230, take about $30 off for yourself as a "listing fee" and you owe him $200 for selling his tickets online for him.

Actually $207, since TM keeps 10% off the top. And I could have sold them there in the first place had he not approached me earlier in the week about buying them.

I know that morally, what he originally gave me is his...but then part of me thinks, as mentioned in some posts, he jerked me around. As Shorty says, he got his hands on tix...then continued looking for better tix. Then needed my help to re-sell my originals. I could have said screw it and he could have dealt with scalpers before the game.

And also, he watched as they got sold online and saw where the money was applied to my ticket invoice. Me, at that point, says "Hey, so I'm getting my $200 back, right?"

So, yeah i realize I owe him...but deserve some sort of hazard pay.

[Subby]

deserve some sort of hazard pay.
Quoted for awesomeness.