Will Florida spilt?

[Galaxy]

http://www.nbc6.net/news/16194092/detail.html

Margate Votes In Favor Of Splitting Fla. Into 2 States
North Lauderdale Also Approves Resolution


The 50 states could soon be 51 after South Florida lawmakers discussed this week the splitting of the Sunshine State in two.

The complaint made by Broward County lawmakers that South Florida has different needs than the rest of the state has been going on for decades.


There has been a move by two cities in the county to split the state into North Florida and South Florida. Their idea is to have South Florida consist of Palm Beach, Broward, Miami-Dade and Monroe counties.

The city of Margate unanimously passed the resolution on Wednesday. North Lauderdale had already passed the same measure.

Lawmakers in the area complained that South Florida's needs are much different than the rest of the state's. They said it's more culturally diverse and more urban than North Florida.

However, for decades, legislators in Tallahassee in the north part of the state have held sway over what happens in South Florida.

The complaint started with North Lauderdale Mayor Jack Brady. Margate Mayor Pam Donovan recently joined in the secession movement.

"We're fighting for the people," Brady said. "We're fighting for our residents, and our residents are here in North Lauderdale in South Florida. It's not a one-size-fits-all shoe. You can't handle a problem in a state that one thing that's good for North Florida is also good for South Florida. We're more urbanized. Our needs are completely different."

"We have problems," Donovan said. "We're big and urbanized. When our money goes up to other portions of the state when we can use it here to help us, help our children, help our housing crisis, help everything else and we don't get it, we have to do something."

The mayors said they're tired of seeing South Florida schools being under-funded from Tallahassee.

"We try and talk to (legislators)," Donovan said. "We try and present our issues. We try and do all that and you just won't listen."

Donovan said she was appalled to see, in person, how much time the legislature wasted on what she called trivial matters.

"They spent another two hours -- we sat in the Senate -- talking about 'truck nuts,'" she said. "I didn't even know what it was. I had to go look online to see what it was."

South Florida lawmakers said tourism in the area could be enough to fuel the economy without Tallahassee's help. The cruise industry is based out of Miami and the Florida Keys are a big draw.

However, there are a lot of obstacles in the way, including which side would get Lake Okeechobee.

The two mayors said they're not giving up.

"Our citizens deserve a break," Brady said.

A proposal was made in the 1970s to split the state, but it did not go through. Elected officials on Wednesday said the resolution is probably a symbolic gesture. They want other South Florida municipalities to join with them.

[Flasch186]

¿Hace Florida roció? http://www.nbc6.net/news/16194092/detail.html

Margate Vota a favor de Partir Fla. En 2 Estados Lauderdale del norte También Aprueba la Resolución

Los 50 estados pronto podrían ser 51 después de legisladores del sur de Florida discutieron esta semana el partir del Estado de Sol en dos.

La queja hecha por legisladores de Condado de Broward que Florida del sur tiene las necesidades diferentes que el resto del estado ha estado pasando por décadas.

Ha habido un movimiento por dos ciudades en el condado de partir el estado en Florida del norte y Florida del sur. Su idea es de tener Florida del sur consiste en la Playa de Palma, Broward, Miami-Dade y condados de Monroe.

La ciudad de Margate tomó el acuerdo unánimemente el miércoles. Lauderdale del norte ya había pasado la misma medida.

Los legisladores en el área se quejaron que las necesidades de Florida del sur son mucho diferente del resto del estado. Ellos dijeron que es más culturalmente diverso y más urbano que Florida del norte.

Sin embargo, por décadas, los legisladores en Tallahassee en la parte del norte del estado han aplazado el vaivén lo que sucede en Florida del sur.

La queja comenzó con Lauderdale del norte Alcalde Jack Brady. El Alcalde de Margate Pam Donovan unió recientemente en el movimiento de secesión.

"Luchamos para las personas," Brady dijo. "Luchamos para nuestros residentes, y nuestros residentes están aquí en Lauderdale del norte en Florida del sur. No es un uno ataques de tamaño-todo zapato. Usted no puede manejar un problema en un estado ése cosa que es buena para Florida del norte es también bueno para Florida del sur. Nosotros más somos urbanizados. Nuestras necesidades son completamente diferentes".

"Tenemos los problemas," Donovan dijo. "Somos grandes y urbanizados. Cuándo nuestro dinero sube a otras porciones del estado cuando nosotros lo podemos utilizar para aquí ayudar nosotros, ayude a nuestros niños, ayudan nuestra crisis de envoltura, ayuda todo más y nosotros no lo conseguimos, tenemos que hacer algo".

Los alcaldes dijo ellos es cansado de ver las escuelas del sur de Florida que es infradota de Tallahassee.

"Tratamos y hablamos con Donovan (legislators),” dijo. "Tratamos y presentamos nuestros asuntos. Tratamos y hacemos todo que y usted justo no escuchará".

Donovan dijo que ella fue horrorizada para ver, en la persona, cuánto tiempo la legislatura malgastada en lo que ella llamó los asuntos triviales.

"Ellos pasaron otras dos horas -- nosotros nos sentamos en el Senado -- hablando de 'tuercas de camión,'" ella dijo. "Hice ni sé lo que fue. Tuve que ir parece en línea para ver lo que fue".

Los legisladores del sur de Florida dijeron que turismo en el área podría ser suficiente en abastecer de combustible la economía sin la ayuda de Tallahassee. El va la industria es basada fuera de Miami y las Llaves de Florida son una atracción grande.

Sin embargo, hay muchos obstáculos en la manera, inclusive que toman partido conseguirían Lago Okeechobee.

Los dos alcaldes dijeron que ellos no abandonan.

"Nuestros ciudadanos merecen una interrupción," Brady dijo.

Una propuesta fue hecha en los años setenta para partir el estado, pero no atravesar. Los funcionarios elegidos el miércoles dijeron que la resolución es probablemente un gesto simbólico. Ellos desean otro municipios que del sur de Florida unan con ellos.

[JPhillips]

South Florida is now sending wizards to poison the minds of North Floridian children:

Teacher Fired Over Magic Trick

Land 'O Lakes, Florida (WTSP) -- The stories in the news about inappropriate relationships between teachers and students have been overwhelming. There was even a substitute teacher in New Port Richey who got in trouble after investigators say she had a relationship with an underage student.

Well, another Pasco County substitute teacher's job is on the line, but this time it's because of a magic trick.

The charge from the school district — Wizardry!

Substitute teacher Jim Piculas does a 30-second magic trick where a toothpick disappears then reappears.

But after performing it in front of a classroom at Rushe Middle School in Land 'O Lakes, Piculas said his job did a disappearing act of its own.

"I get a call the middle of the day from head of supervisor of substitute teachers. He says, 'Jim, we have a huge issue, you can't take any more assignments you need to come in right away,'" he said.

When Piculas went in, he learned his little magic trick cast a spell and went much farther than he'd hoped.

"I said, 'Well Pat, can you explain this to me?' 'You've been accused of wizardry,' [he said]. Wizardry?" he asked.

Tampa Bay's 10 talked to the assistant superintendent with the Pasco County School District who said it wasn't just the wizardry and that Picular had other performance issues, including "not following lesson plans" and allowing students to play on unapproved computers."

Piculas said he knew nothing about the accusations.

"That... I think was embellished after the fact to try to cover what initially what they were saying to me," he said.

After the magic trick, Rushe's principal requested Piculas be dismissed. Now, Piculas believes the incident may have bewitched his ability to get a job anywhere else.

"I still have no idea what my discipline involves because I've never received anything from the school district actually saying what it entails," said Piculas.

As a substitute teacher, the Pasco County School District considers Piculas to be an "at will employee." That means the district doesn't need to have cause for not bringing him back at all.

[Buccaneer]

Aren't there numerous states where there are pronounced geographical and soci-economical differences?

[ISiddiqui]

Aren't there numerous states where there are pronounced geographical and soci-economical differences?

Yep, and it's especially obvious during Presidential campaign season, where on the CNN big board during the primaries, we see vast differences in different areas of states (and how that affects voting, of course).

[Noop]

As a resident of the state I wouldn't be opposed to the idea. There is a significant difference between South Florida and North Florida. There are places in Florida that made me feel like I was in Alabama or Mississippi (Mostly the panhandle) but there are other places where its very country.

[panerd]

Aren't there numerous states where there are pronounced geographical and soci-economical differences?

Yep. Speaking for Missouri the needs of the St. Louis and Kansas City areas differ about 180 degrees from the rest of the state. (And when you include county populations is almost a 50/50 split)

I know the same rings true with Chicago and the rest of Illinois. Can't speak for every state but probably about half have the same disconnect. So how about voters voting for more local control and less state and federal government? That's an idea the republicans used to stand for before they found God. The democrats? Don't think so. Vote Liberterian? :)

[illinifan999]

I know the same rings true with Chicago and the rest of Illinois.

You can say that again

[sterlingice]

"They spent another two hours -- we sat in the Senate -- talking about 'truck nuts,'" she said. "I didn't even know what it was. I had to go look online to see what it was."

Ah, the ugly side of the truck nuts debate! ;)

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

Aren't there numerous states where there are pronounced geographical and soci-economical differences?

Sure, I'm sitting in one. The phrase "two Georgia's" has been in play now for almost as long as I can remember.

Interesting difference in this case seems to be that the rest of Georgia would be quite interested in looking at cutting Atlanta loose instead of the other way around (or at least I've never heard anyone from the inner-metro five county area float the idea, while I've heard it wistfully talked about from every other part of the state for at least the past 20 years or so).

[sterlingice]

However, for decades, legislators in Tallahassee in the north part of the state have held sway over what happens in South Florida.

...

"We have problems," Donovan said. "We're big and urbanized. When our money goes up to other portions of the state when we can use it here to help us, help our children, help our housing crisis, help everything else and we don't get it, we have to do something."

The mayors said they're tired of seeing South Florida schools being under-funded from Tallahassee.

I love how the slant of the article is that it's Tallahassee this and Tallahassee that. It sounds like the people who live in Tallahassee sit around all day, deciding how to screw people in south Florida out of money.

So you're saying it's about money. South Florida wants to take it's ball and go home. I believe the proper response is "Waaaaaaaaaaaaaah".

Wait, there's proportional representation in the state? And a lot of those people in Tallahassee are from south Florida? And they're the ones who can't get their act together to fix this funding issue? So, it's politics as usual. Boring. Next....

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

Almost forgot ... props to Flasch for providing a pretty good chuckle.

[kcchief19]

Sure, I'm sitting in one. The phrase "two Georgia's" has been in play now for almost as long as I can remember.
Sounds like John Edwards was on to something with his "two Americas" ... :)

There are a number of states that have simmering issues regarding how they are run and who has control -- there are proposals that would break California into as many as several states. Then we have North Dakota that wants to drop the word North. Add in Puerto Rico and other issues, and I think we are on a precipice where it just needs one state to break the threshold and it could open up a Pandora's Box of state breakups and changes.

Looking at it historically, we have had a remarkable period of stability in statehood. Since Arizona joined in 1912, we've added only Alaska and Hawaii in 1959. Additional states and even breakups were commonplace for 130 years. Kentucky and West Virgina were once part of Virgina and Tennessee was part of North Carolina I believe.

It seems wacky, but I'm sure it will happen eventually. It won't be easy for a state to break into two but it wouldn't surprise me if it happened in the next decade or two.

[Buccaneer]

No, I think you have to look beyond the urban centers/rural areas dichotomies, which you find in most states (tangent: my master's thesis was this geographical study of the rural Midwest). What I was talking about was regions within states where most things are different: geography, demographics, argiculture, natural resources, weather, political attitudes, etc. For example, take a look at the differences between eastern Colorado and mountainous Colorado. Among the biggest differences I have seen in all of my travels. (Even at this extreme, it doesn't warrant a separate "state" because of the low populations of the eastern plains.) Historically, we had the same thing when the mountainous Virginia split off from Tidewater/Peidmont Virginia. Getting back to Florida, I can appreciate the differences between the two (most of my in-laws are South Florida). I remember Joel Garreau in his Nine Nations of North America, put South Florida as a separate nation. However, there is one thing that muddies this - the tremendous growth and increasing influence of central Florida centered around Orlando/Kissimmee. Gainesville, further north, still pulls a lot of demographics and influence from South Florida.

[Chief Rum]

So when does Canada apply to become a state? :D

[Flasch186]

Almost forgot ... props to Flasch for providing a pretty good chuckle.

Gracias

[JonInMiddleGA]

No, I think you have to look beyond the urban centers/rural areas dichotomies, which you find in most states (tangent: my master's thesis was this geographical study of the rural Midwest). What I was talking about was regions within states where most things are different: geography, demographics, agriculture, natural resources, weather, political attitudes, etc.

In the case of Georgia, you've got most of the things you mentioned, along with (and perhaps not coincidentally so) the urban/rural split. Demographics, agriculture, natural resources, and most definitely socio-political beliefs/trends/ attitudes.

Thing is, you start to get into some chicken-and-egg stuff at some point. The demographics influence the socio-political, the agricultural and/or natural resources present in a region influence the urban/rural nature, etc.

[molson]

Aren't there numerous states where there are pronounced geographical and soci-economical differences?

There are also fringe movements to split states ALL over the country, and none of them will ever happen.

[-apoc-]

As dumb as it sounds FL really should be split imo. The state is huge it takes 6 hours to get from Jacksonville to Miami and 3 hours to cross the state not even including the panhandle area. At worst they should move the Capitial to Orlando so that it is actually central in the state. To get to Tallahasse would take me 6 hours driving and I am 3 hours from Miami, How bad would that suck if you had to go there for something.

[Buccaneer]

-apoc-, haven't been west of the Mississippi River, have you? :)

[Galaxy]

I would love to see NYC the surrounding area (Long Island) split from from the rest of New York.

[Galaxy]

What are the voting trends (socially conservative/financially conservative) between North and South Florida?

[thesloppy]

As many have said, what state doesn't have all of these issues?

I'm sure there's loads of folks in Eastern Oregon who have plenty to say about living in the shadow of Portland and Eugene, and those issues may be entirely valid, but the key point remains: who the fuck cares? Certainly nobody IN Oregon, let alone the rest of the goddamn country. I'm sure the same goes for every area outside of the major urban centers of each and every state in the union.

[thesloppy]

-apoc-, haven't been west of the Mississippi River, have you? :)

I was thinking the same thing. Bad times is driving 8 hours straight, three days in a row, and still waking up in Texas each morning.

[QuikSand]

Because of our antiquated and silly structure of representation in the U.S. Senate (which is the de facto decision-maker in modern politics), any state that isn't tempted by the potential to split into at least two pieces is pretty clearly missing the boat.

[Fidatelo]

So when does Canada apply to become a state? :D

Whenever Alberta or Quebec splits off, Ontario and whatever else didn't go with those two will come knocking.

[sterlingice]

I was thinking the same thing. Bad times is driving 8 hours straight, three days in a row, and still waking up in Texas each morning.

Then you must be doing something wrong, because Beaumont to El Paso on 10 is about 900 miles. Long, definitely, but should be able to cross it in 2 days. You could actually be in Texas 3 different days on a trip, tho- ending in Texas one day, being in Texas all day the next up to about Ft Stockton- that area, and then waking up in Texas the next day, driving out from the west.

SI

[Grammaticus]

Yep, my part of Tennessee is very different than west and central Tennessee. We want to be a state too and get our two Senators.

[miami_fan]

Having grown up in South Florida and now living in the panhandle area for the last 2+ years, I could definitely see the state split into at least two pieces. Here in the Panama City area, I would bet the local voting trends are much closer to those in Alabama than they do the central and southern parts of the state.

[Oilers9911]

Up here in Ontario I can't think of a better example. In Southern Ontario you have a major city like Toronto and a large population base while way up in Northern Ontario you have small towns that have a much different need from the Greater Toronto Area. There have been rumblings from the north about splitting but no serious talk.

[Logan]

Up here in Ontario I can't think of a better example. In Southern Ontario you have a major city like Toronto and a large population base while way up in Northern Ontario you have small towns that have a much different need from the Greater Toronto Area. There have been rumblings from the north about splitting but no serious talk.

You guys can do what you want. I don't understand how you're organized anyway, what's some more confusion.

[Oilers9911]

You guys can do what you want. I don't understand how you're organized anyway, what's some more confusion.

It's not that complicated. We have provinces instead of states. That's about it. :)

[thesloppy]

Then you must be doing something wrong, because Beaumont to El Paso on 10 is about 900 miles. Long, definitely, but should be able to cross it in 2 days. You could actually be in Texas 3 different days on a trip, tho- ending in Texas one day, being in Texas all day the next up to about Ft Stockton- that area, and then waking up in Texas the next day, driving out from the west.

SI

I'm exaggerating of course....but not by too much. Many years ago, I went on a road trip that was ostensibly to visit New Orleans....but since we were coming from Portland, through the southwest, and had to return the same way, in practice it ended up seeming a lot less like "roadtrip to New Orleans" and more like "driving through Texas and California for two weeks".

[SportsDino]

One thing that plays into this is 'how much shit your supposed to take before you go into the area of extreme changes?'

If South Florida is being excessively short changed by their state government, shouldn't they have the right to break into their own state if there is no other option left to them? As for representation, if you bring gerrymandering into this issue it is very easy to under represent a particular minority population (create a few areas that are nearly 100% of the minority group and split the rest so they are 60/40 in one party's favor). You can even make a majority population have minority representation if you take it to an extreme (although I think that is supposed to be discouraged these days, the voting districts in many states still look funny).

This is a question that goes further, for instance, if every one is so certain that we are practically a two party system, when is it right for the libertarians to revolt and create their own country?

Or to take it a little bit farther from home, if you are in a repressive third world regime, when do you pick up gun and try to overthrow the existing dictator (and would we Americans call them rebel scum if the dictator sucks up to us?).

Ultimately if governments are not working for their people anymore they should be changed. Hopefully the voting mechanisms allow this, but it seems more and more that there is just too much inertia for real change even in a country like the United States (guess what, Obama is just another helping of the same old stuff).

[Surtt]

Didn't Key West already declare it's self an independent country?

[rjolley]

Can we create the Independent Republic of Gary yet?If that's Gary, IN you mean, what they really need to do it split from Indiana and merge with Illinois. It's basically a suburb of Chicago anyway.

If you didn't mean Gary, IN...carry on.

[JonInMiddleGA]

What are the voting trends (socially conservative/financially conservative) between North and South Florida?

I'm reading your question as wondering about the differences in the Republican voters (although I'm not sure that's how you meant it).

If so, scroll to the map at the bottom & then mouse over the counties for the GOP primary totals. Northern half of the state voted for McCain around 1/3rd or less, southeastern tip was solidly McCain (and was the only part of the state to be so).
http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/state.php?year=2008&f=0&off=0&elect=2&fips=12&submit=Retrieve

I would figure Huckaby areas to be more socially conservative, McCain area's less so perhaps ... YMMV.

[ISiddiqui]

If South Florida is being excessively short changed by their state government, shouldn't they have the right to break into their own state if there is no other option left to them?

I thought the American Civil War answered that question on United States soil ;).

[Big Fo]

We could get rid of state governments and just have a federal government with thousands of counties each with increased levels of autonomy. Perhaps keep the state names just for naming colleges and to save having to reprint all those maps.

[molson]

Having grown up in South Florida and now living in the panhandle area for the last 2+ years, I could definitely see the state split into at least two pieces. Here in the Panama City area, I would bet the local voting trends are much closer to those in Alabama than they do the central and southern parts of the state.

By this logic, you could easily split the country into at least 500 states.

[thesloppy]

By this logic, you could easily split the country into at least 500 states.

That'd be GREAT! Imagine what a freak show it would be....sometimes these divisions are necessary to keep a state from going politically batshit. Like, can you imagine how crazy the State of Denver would be like if the rest of Colorado wasn't there to keep it in check. It would be like Lord of the Flies, but with stoner college kids.

[Chief Rum]

That'd be GREAT! Imagine what a freak show it would be....sometimes these divisions are necessary to keep a state from going politically batshit. Like, can you imagine how crazy the State of Denver would be like if the rest of Colorado wasn't there to keep it in check. It would be like Lord of the Flies, but with stoner college kids.

First act I would do would be to build some big globular forum thing with floating platforms so we could imitate the Republic Senate in the Star Wars prequels. :)

[miami_fan]

By this logic, you could easily split the country into at least 500 states.

You actually assigned logic to a statement of voting trends?

[Fidatelo]

Up here in Ontario I can't think of a better example. In Southern Ontario you have a major city like Toronto and a large population base while way up in Northern Ontario you have small towns that have a much different need from the Greater Toronto Area. There have been rumblings from the north about splitting but no serious talk.

So would they become their own province, or join Manitoba? I know the Kenora/Dryden area would be better represented as a part of Manitoba, but I'm not sure where the Northern Ontario cutoff would be, nor whether the rest of that area (Thunder Bay, Sudbury, etc) would want to be part of Manitoba.

[stevew]

Because of our antiquated and silly structure of representation in the U.S. Senate (which is the de facto decision-maker in modern politics), any state that isn't tempted by the potential to split into at least two pieces is pretty clearly missing the boat.

They could pretty much eliminate the Senate, and we'd be probably all be better off.

[ColtCrazy]

Indiana is really 2 states in one as well. Most think of Indiana as a flat, midwestern cultured state. That really applies to Northern Indiana. Southern Indiana has a blend of midwestern and southern cultures because of its ties to Kentucky. It's also different geographically with hills and valleys scattered around. Politically, the North has been traditionally republican and the South democratic. I've never heard of a split being discussed since the North is in control (the top 3 urban areas of the state are north or central) and they pretty much ignore the bottom 2/5 of the state anyway.

[molson]

You actually assigned logic to a statement of voting trends?

I do a lot of things.

Yours obviously wasn't the right post to quote for my point. I was just saying that people are always citing diversity in a state as a justification for splitting off: the Florida panhandle is different than south Florida, NYC from upstate NY, Northern California from Southern, LA from the rest of southern California, eastern Oregon from western, etc., etc, etc. If that's the threshold it would justify 500 states.

[JonInMiddleGA]

If that's the threshold it would justify 500 states.

I've heard worse ideas.

[rjolley]

Indiana is really 2 states in one as well. Most think of Indiana as a flat, midwestern cultured state. That really applies to Northern Indiana. Southern Indiana has a blend of midwestern and southern cultures because of its ties to Kentucky. It's also different geographically with hills and valleys scattered around. Politically, the North has been traditionally republican and the South democratic. I've never heard of a split being discussed since the North is in control (the top 3 urban areas of the state are north or central) and they pretty much ignore the bottom 2/5 of the state anyway.Northern Indiana is considered republican and the south is considered democrats? Really? When I was growing up there, southern Indiana was grenerally conservative and Republican, while northwestern Indiana where I gre up was mainly Democrats. Was never sure about central and northeastern, but since Indiana tended to be a Republican state in elections, I figured they were mainly Republican. Either the voter base has shifted, or my perception of the political climate 20-25 years ago was off.

[Wolfpack]

I'm pretty sure both of you are right. With the role-reversals over the last 35 years or so, many places that were reliably Republican are now overwhelmingly Democratic and vice versa. For instance, Ann Arbor, if you can believe it, was a Republican town up until the 70s and 80s, when the radicalism became aligned with the Democrats. Meanwhile, down south, the "Solid South" states were all reliably Democratic until the Civil Rights movement resulted in "Dixiecrats" (to distinguish themselves from the northern Democrats who were more supportive of the movement and most visible in those states that went for George Wallace in presidential elections) and eventually became Republican.

Ironically enough, the historical entrenchment of the Democrats as a party has kept downballot offices in many places in the South in Democratic hands, but the Republicans have come to dominate the top of the ticket at the federal and state levels. I know that North Carolina is very much this way in that they'll vote for Republicans for Senate, House, and the presidency, but very little else in elected office. Since Reconstruction ended, North Carolina has had just two Republican governors in spite of being a fairly steady Republican state for decades now at the federal level.

[clintl]

-apoc-, haven't been west of the Mississippi River, have you? :)

+1

[sooner333]

This reminds me of when I read the article in my high school government class about the wheat farmers of Western Kansas wanting to create a new state with West Kansas, East Colorado, and the OK and TX Panhandles. They felt shortchanged by the population center of the Kansas City suburbs, Lawrence, and Topeka, and probably Wichita to a certain extent.

[Grammaticus]

So how does the Florida state government plunder money for funding? Florida is a no income tax state. Is the tourism revenue from each county/city taxed? Is it state sales tax?

Are the Urban areas getting less state money per student for public school funding?

[Shkspr]

This reminds me of when I read the article in my high school government class about the wheat farmers of Western Kansas wanting to create a new state with West Kansas, East Colorado, and the OK and TX Panhandles. They felt shortchanged by the population center of the Kansas City suburbs, Lawrence, and Topeka, and probably Wichita to a certain extent.


What the hell makes western Kansas think we'd want to be in the same state as them? One of the benefits of living in the Texas Panhandle, barren as it is, is going out on a summer's night, the smell of the Hereford cattle farms pungent in the air, and looking up at the stars with a loved one,and telling her, "Thank the Good Lord we don't live in Garden City."

[Blade6119]

We dont want to split into 2 states, we just want to give tucson back to mexico.

[cody8200]

Actually in Indiana there are only small pockets of democrats. Monroe county (Bloomington), Marion County (Indianapolis), and Lake County(Gary area). So actually there are dems in the south, central, and north part of the state. Monroe county is absolutely always very blue because of the college kids.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/IN/P/00/index.html

[Schmidty]

No state needs to split more than Michigan. Cut off the cancer that is Detroit, and give it to Ohio.

[Honolulu Blue]

No state needs to split more than Michigan. Cut off the cancer that is Detroit, and give it to Ohio.

I'm not so sure about that. There are plenty of rich suburbs surrounding Detroit. And the city itself has some assets, like (almost) all the professional sports teams.

I've heard some rumblings in the past about the potential state of Superior, which would be our upper peninsula, splitting off from the rest of the state. Since it would be about the smallest in population and one of the lowest in per capita GDP, I feel comfortable in saying that it's not going to happen. But geographically and philosophically, the UP is really a different world from the rest of the state.

[Schmidty]

I'm not so sure about that. There are plenty of rich suburbs surrounding Detroit. And the city itself has some assets, like (almost) all the professional sports teams.

Fine. But can we at least give away Flint?

[Ryche]

You could probably make up a new state if you combined Michigan's UP, northern Wisconsin and northern Minnesota. That's all, historically at least, Scandinavian immigrants working in mining and timber industries. Very different from the southern portion of the states.

I know in Minnesota there was talk of a couple counties splitting for similar reasons. But your basically doubling expenses by doing this because you have to duplicate the bureaucracy.

[Passacaglia]

As long as they add another free state to make up for the extra slave state, I'm fine with it.

[rjolley]

Actually in Indiana there are only small pockets of democrats. Monroe county (Bloomington), Marion County (Indianapolis), and Lake County(Gary area). So actually there are dems in the south, central, and north part of the state. Monroe county is absolutely always very blue because of the college kids.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/IN/P/00/index.html

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, though I'm a bit surprised about Monroe county being majority democrats. The college students being there makes sense as the reason why, but I wouldn't have guessed it right off.

[Huckleberry]

People calling Florida big are funny. ;)

And Florida can't just up and split into two states. Last I remember, new states have to be voted into the United States.

Once upon a time Texas had negotiated the right to split up into as many as five states. I made a map at one point showing what I think those states would be. I'll see if I can find it.

[Logan]

People calling Florida big are funny. ;)

And Florida can't just up and split into two states. Last I remember, new states have to be voted into the United States.

Once upon a time Texas had negotiated the right to split up into as many as five states. I made a map at one point showing what I think those states would be. I'll see if I can find it.

With some creativity you could probably get it to look like a giant middle finger (to Mexico, obviously).

[Huckleberry]

Unfortunately I'm not that creative.

All I had was this. Very rough draft, would need refining, not that it would ever happen.

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/Huck_L_Berry/texas5.png

[BishopMVP]

No state needs to split more than Michigan. Cut off the cancer that is Detroit, and give it to Ohio.Interestingly, it was one of only two wars between states. The other was Michigan and Ohio fighting over Toledo. Clearly Michigan won, because who would want Toledo?.

[Scarecrow]

What the hell makes western Kansas think we'd want to be in the same state as them? One of the benefits of living in the Texas Panhandle, barren as it is, is going out on a summer's night, the smell of the Hereford cattle farms pungent in the air, and looking up at the stars with a loved one,and telling her, "Thank the Good Lord we don't live in Garden City."

that there is funny, I don't care who you are, thats funny.

[dawgfan]

No, I think you have to look beyond the urban centers/rural areas dichotomies, which you find in most states (tangent: my master's thesis was this geographical study of the rural Midwest). What I was talking about was regions within states where most things are different: geography, demographics, argiculture, natural resources, weather, political attitudes, etc. For example, take a look at the differences between eastern Colorado and mountainous Colorado. Among the biggest differences I have seen in all of my travels. (Even at this extreme, it doesn't warrant a separate "state" because of the low populations of the eastern plains.) Historically, we had the same thing when the mountainous Virginia split off from Tidewater/Peidmont Virginia.
I'm having a hard time imagining that the dichotomy between Western and Eastern Washington (dividing line = the Cascade mountain range) isn't about as extreme in every possible way as exists in the U.S.

[Schmidty]

I'm having a hard time imagining that the dichotomy between Western and Eastern Washington (dividing line = the Cascade mountain range) isn't about as extreme in every possible way as exists in the U.S.

Yep. I would probably love living in Spokane. :D

[thesloppy]

I'm having a hard time imagining that the dichotomy between Western and Eastern Washington (dividing line = the Cascade mountain range) isn't about as extreme in every possible way as exists in the U.S.

Oregon's pretty much a mirror image. You got your coastal rain forest on one side, and a desert on the other, and the socio/political differences are just as severe.

[st.cronin]

Spokane is awesome, Schmidty.

[dawgfan]

Oregon's pretty much a mirror image. You got your coastal rain forest on one side, and a desert on the other, and the socio/political differences are just as severe.
Oregon's split is very similar to Washington's. The primary difference in my view is the greater amount of urban population centers in Western Washington vs. Western Oregon, creating an even bigger political split. Beyond that I think the agricultural and climate differences might be slightly more pronounced in Washington, but yeah - the mirror splits in Washington and Oregon between the sides west and east of the Cascade Mountains are remarkable.

[dawgfan]

Dola - it should be noted that "split the state" discussions have also taken place in Washington and Oregon. In addition, nearly every county in Western Washington with a major city, from Pierce (Tacoma) through King (Seattle), Snohomish (Everett) to Whatcom (Bellingham) has had movements from those in the eastern (read: rural) parts of those counties to split.

[thesloppy]

Beyond that I think the agricultural and climate differences might be slightly more pronounced in Washington

Really? That's interesting. I'm certainly not all that well versed in climatology to confirm or deny that statement, but I'd have guessed Oregon has a much more pronounced Southern/Northern divide as well, simply because it's a little longer and closer to the equator.

[Buccaneer]

dawgfam, yes, absolutely. Washington, Oregon, Montana, Idaho and Colorado were the states I had in mind.

[Young Drachma]

State of Jefferson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Jefferson)

[dawgfan]

Really? That's interesting. I'm certainly not all that well versed in climatology to confirm or deny that statement, but I'd have guessed Oregon has a much more pronounced Southern/Northern divide as well, simply because it's a little longer and closer to the equator.
Since Oregon is south of Washington, the climate on the Western side of the state is a little warmer than in Washington, and thus the difference between the climates in both halves is a little less pronounced (the eastern half of both states are more arid and get warmer in the summer and cooler in the winter than the more temperate west halves).

As for north/south, that's an interesting question - I would guess that the difference between the west and east halves of the state is less so in the southern part of Oregon, though you could say the same thing in Washington as well (but for different reasons).

Another difference is the way Puget Sound splits the western half of Washington, creating the Olympic Peninsula and providing a little more diversity in Washington's western half than Oregon's.

Bigger picture though, Oregon and Washington have very similar east/west splits.

[dawgfan]

Yep. I would probably love living in Spokane. :D
You probably would. I should visit there - I haven't been there since the 1974 Expo, and I was 4 or 5 then so I barely remember it. I have a friend who works there periodically and she says it's pretty nice. The proximity to Coeur D'Alene Lake and ski areas like Schweitzer would be a draw for me.

[SFL Cat]

As dumb as it sounds FL really should be split imo. The state is huge it takes 6 hours to get from Jacksonville to Miami and 3 hours to cross the state not even including the panhandle area. At worst they should move the Capitial to Orlando so that it is actually central in the state. To get to Tallahasse would take me 6 hours driving and I am 3 hours from Miami, How bad would that suck if you had to go there for something.

In that case, they definitely ought to split Texas into five or six states. My God...talk about driving for hours and feeling like you're getting nowhere.