The torture of terrorist suspects: In Torture We Trust?

[AgPete]

Another Iraq related topic. :p

Interesting article on TheNation.Com.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030331&s=press

I recommend you read it even if you can't tolerate the liberal politics of that site. (You don't have to agree with the author's opinions. It's clear where he stands but he still does a good job writing about something that recieves little attention. :) ) I've seen a lot of posts on FOFC about our double standard when it comes to torture and interrogation and exactly what is the level that makes us just as bad as the people we hunt.

Even with the facts this article brings out, you may come to the conclusion (like I have ;) ) that concern over the violent treatment of state enemies that plot to kill Americans is the least of our worries. One of the more interesting things to me though were the comparisons between American supported torture and Bush's speeches about the "axis of evil" and their torture methods. Maybe if we stopped having a double standard, we could fix some of our problems in international diplomacy. Let's be frank, if Bush had a national press conference tomorrow announcing that all terrorists were castrated so as to force information that could save American lives, how many people would truly care enough to protest it? :D We know what's going on behind closed doors, we're not naive. I'd like to see Bush drop some of his preaching and get down to the truth of the matter. No matter how much we try and convince ourselves we're the "good" nation, some things we have to do in the name of national security just aren't very Christian. ;)

[Fritz]

for the record, I do not have a problem with torture if it has purpose beyond someone's sick pleasure.

[Havok]

No matter how much we try and convince ourselves we're the "good" nation, some things we have to do in the name of national security just aren't very Christian.

I love how someone can write an article about us torturing someone when there is no proof that we have actually tortured anyone.

And trust me.... i'd much rather be tortured by the CIA then some crazy muslim extremist. We use sleep depravation(sp?) and shock treatment. they cut off your fingers one at a time and shoot your wife in the head right in front of you.

And no i didnt read the article. Everytime i read an extreme left article like that i get pissed off and beat up a hippie :)

[astralhaze]

I do have a problem with torture. In ALL cases.

[Havok]

I do have a problem with torture. In ALL cases

not if it saves lives. espically american lives

[AgPete]

Originally posted by Havok

And no i didnt read the article. Everytime i read an extreme left article like that i get pissed off and beat up a hippie :)

LOL :p

Well, I may be one of the few people that reads the Nation AND the National Review. I figure it never hurts to hear an opinion from both sides. :)

[rexalllsc]

I have no problem w/ torture of these scumbags. They lost their rights when they decided to have planes flown into buildings of civilians. I can only hope that they're thrown off of the next tallest building in NYC...suffer the fate of those trapped on the top floors of the WTC.

[STK]

I wouldn't mind seeing every Al-Qaeda piece of shit doused in napalm and thrown a match. (my sick pleasure)

[CAsterling]

Loved this line from th article.

"We don't kick the [expletive] out of them," one official told the Post. "We send them to other countries so they can kick the [expletive] out of them."

So the US may (please note the word may) send it enemies to its allies, who also want the information, and have faster more effective ways of extracting the information.

Can't say I have a problem with that - there again I can't say I have a problem with any officials from a recognised goverment (i.e. UN member) doing whatever they feel is in their own best interests in persuit of their national security - and yes that includes the current members of the so called Axis of Evil.

No country has the right to dictate the internal security policies of another country, so if Syria/Egypt/Iran/Iraq/Israel/Brazil/Argentina/Mexico/Greece etc use torture, then why shouldn't they allow their allies to request assistance of this nature if desired - Also how many unnamed officials do they have to quote in one article - lets face it an unnamed official can be anybody including your local metermaid, so those statements could be from absolutely anybody.

I guess I'd make a good henchman for a dictator one day ;)

[sterlingice]

Ah, I love how easily people are swayed. This is not so much about the article but from the responses:

The fact that a lot of people here think like this sickens me to no end. Yes, we were the victim of a terrorist attack that greatly affected people. But, wow, it has really shifted all beliefs in this country to a scary and dangerous place.

I hate how in the span of two years, I've gone from being way too socially conservative that it sickens some Republicans I know to being so liberal that the denizens of this putrid liberal hellhole I live in think I'm too far left (ah, Lawrence, Kansas: where it's fun to pretend to believe whatever you want as long as it's trendy and is not logical). And the thing about it is: my opinions haven't changed. I'm a stubborn bastard and I've felt the same way about most things, hell, for nearly 15 years unless some really good evidence comes along that changes my mind.

Just because I still like to hang onto a modicum of logic when making decisions makes me some crazed lunatic. Democrats were always brainless and Republicans were always heartless but this just has everyone's thinking turned upside down. Few donkeys care about ruining hundreds of lives in a witch hunt. The GOPs don't seem to care that this war will ruin the economy further and screw their president over.

Damn, I hate to say it, but I just want thinks back to the way it was before where I could take solace in the fact that I was smarter than the average dem and less evil than the average gop. This is really messing with my elitist political way.

SI

[astralhaze]

This is going to get everyone on my case I am sure, but what else is new. Please read the words I use and don't read more in to it than I say. If I don't say it I don't mean it. Ok, disclaimer out of the way, here are my thoughts on what sterlingjuice points out.

Since 9/11, I have noticed a definite trend in our national thinking that reminds me of pre-war Nazi Germany. The rampant jingoist nationalism, the rally round the flag mentality, the willing suspension of civil rights, the blind faith in the president, the shouting down of dissent, the cry for revenge and war against whatever scapegoat is held before us, etc. To me, it is really scary. The fact that so many of you here are saying there is no problem with torture...wow, I'm speechless.

Ok, what country do we want to live in? Do we want to be a country where freedom, justice, and democracy are realities, or do we want to live in a country where they or merely cynical propaganda phrases we hide behind? This isn't just about the war in Iraq, it is about the bigger picture. This country is swinging so far to the right that it really scares me.

I doubt we will be erecting concentration camps anytime soon and I don't think that we will swing so far to the right that we complete the analogy, but I think we all need to take a step back and evaluate what is going on. I am a radical, it is true, but I do have faith in the idea of America. Right now, that idea is drifting further and further away from reality. This fear and bloodlust running rampant will not make us safer, it will only make us more insecure than we already are. The war in Iraq is going to happen and nothing will stop it now, but what of the future? Are we going to continue to attack country after country and continue living in fear or can we make peace with what happened on 9/11 and start moving towards a safer and more just world for everyone, not just Americans?

Anyway, those are my commie, peacenick, naive, idealstic fanatasy comments for the day.

[Anthony]

you may feel safer holding hands with your enemies singing Kumbaya.

i feel safer knowing they've been blown away in to shark chum.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by sterlingice
But, wow, it has really shifted all beliefs in this country to a scary and dangerous place

Umm ... I've got the same answer to this question that I've had for more than 20 years now, certainly a lot longer than 9/11.

And now, just for the beauty of the dichotomy it will present for you: the last Presidential election was the first time I've ever voted for a GOP candidate above the office of state Representative (and that happened only once previous in a race that was unopposed).

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by astralhaze
This is going to get everyone on my case I am sure, but what else is new. Please read the words I use and don't read more in to it than I say. If I don't say it I don't mean it. Ok, disclaimer out of the way, here are my thoughts on what sterlingjuice points out.

Since 9/11, I have noticed a definite trend in our national thinking that reminds me of pre-war Nazi Germany. The rampant jingoist nationalism, the rally round the flag mentality, the willing suspension of civil rights, the blind faith in the president, the shouting down of dissent, the cry for revenge and war against whatever scapegoat is held before us, etc. To me, it is really scary. The fact that so many of you here are saying there is no problem with torture...wow, I'm speechless.


You say Nazi Germany, I say WWII-era America. Because you see, there's one BIG difference (between the philosophies).

Germany was never attacked.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by astralhaze
Since 9/11, I have noticed a definite trend in our national thinking that reminds me of pre-war Nazi Germany. The rampant jingoist nationalism, the rally round the flag mentality, the willing suspension of civil rights, the blind faith in the president, the shouting down of dissent, the cry for revenge and war against whatever scapegoat is held before us, etc. To me, it is really scary.

This is part of the American way of war.

[CAsterling]

Originally posted by astralhaze

Since 9/11, I have noticed a definite trend in our national thinking that reminds me of pre-war Nazi Germany. The rampant jingoist nationalism, the rally round the flag mentality, the willing suspension of civil rights, the blind faith in the president, the shouting down of dissent, the cry for revenge and war against whatever scapegoat is held before us, etc. To me, it is really scary. The fact that so many of you here are saying there is no problem with torture...wow, I'm speechless.

Ok, what country do we want to live in? Do we want to be a country where freedom, justice, and democracy are realities, or do we want to live in a country where they or merely cynical propaganda phrases we hide behind? This isn't just about the war in Iraq, it is about the bigger picture. This country is swinging so far to the right that it really scares me.



I don't see this as a particular problem - it happens to every country during times of high tension.
Britain got it during the Falklands and through various IRA terror campagains.
Germany during the 70s (Baader-Meinhoff, although that was a misleading title for the group), France during its troubled times (can't remember the groups names - OAS I think was one of them, maybe also Action Directe).
When ever the citizens of a country feel threatened they tend to turn to the things that they feel will make them feel safer.
Jingoistic blind faith in the goverment striking out and achieving vengence are one of the things that people tend to embrace.

Trust me, if you go through it a few times, you tend to question everything, and soon the standard right wing rethoric is nolonger acceptable and you look beyond the immediate threat to the future and how to resolve the longer term issues. At the moment the USA is still figuring its way through the early stages, eventually things will settle down and whilst maybe not normallity as you knew it will return, but something resembling it will.

Its a temporary phenonenom, and it will pass, once again the US will go back to the strangely unique attitudes that baffle and mystify the rest of the world - and I don't mean that as in any way insulting, its just that hard for a foreigner to understand how the US functions in a coherent fashion and yet somehow it does function amasingly well.

Me I'm a product of my environment, or at least thats todays excuse. I've lived through the EOK (I think that was the name) in Cyprus during the 70's, IRA/INLA/Real IRA/Provo IRA/UVF/ etc. through the 80s and 90s - also some exposure of ETA, the Red Brigades and the neo-nazi movements. So when you lose or see friends and family suffer through these acts you tend to be more pragmatic and less idealistic about things others find repugnent.
Either that or i'm just one sick twisted lowlife who is looking for the perfect dictator to work for ;)

For Info...Britain invented concentration camps and were very efficient at running them, the Nazi's took the concept a stage or two further and invented the Death Camps - a different concept in a major way.