Obama versus McCain (versus the rest)

[molson]

:lol:

So you telling me McCain and Co. just found this out? If conservatives didn't care then, why do you care now?

I don't care in a complaining sense. If you read the entire post (a lot of work, I know), you'd see I only care about the entertainment value of a train wreck debate.

It cuts both ways though - the Obama camp knew about the moderator all along too, so they'll have to deal with complaints that she's trying to make Palin look bad. They had a chance to take that excuse away and didn't, so I assume we won't see any Obama supporters bitching about that.

[molson]

Ouch. That was painful to watch. Someone should explain to her what the word specific means.

She sounds remarkably like this: YouTube - Miss Teen USA 2007 - South Carolina answers a question (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww)

That interview is going to be remembered forever, the hits just keep on coming.

Palin is an embarrassment, but I really hope this doesn't start a trend of "quiz" journalism. I've never seen anything like it outside of Chris Matthews (perhaps just because there's not as many hilarious soundbites in regular interviews). It's pretty obnoxious - maybe Kouric should have just handed her a written quiz and then reported on the results.

I'm sure Obama, or even highly intelligent Democrats like Bill Clinton (or anyone, in any party) could be stumped by certain quiz questions at certain times. I don't know what that really tells us about anyone's ability to lead (again, Palin is off the charts here, I'm not defending her, though I'll probably get attacked anyway). We could just nominate Jeopardy contestants to run for president, they can spew knowledge.

[GrantDawg]

i am astounded the Trout is still around.


You'll have to pry my trout and out of my cold, dead hands!

[GrantDawg]

That interview is going to be remembered forever, the hits just keep on coming.

Palin is an embarrassment, but I really hope this doesn't start a trend of "quiz" journalism. I've never seen anything like it outside of Chris Matthews (perhaps just because there's not as many hilarious soundbites in regular interviews). It's pretty obnoxious - maybe Kouric should have just handed her a written quiz and then reported on the results.

I'm sure Obama, or even highly intelligent Democrats like Bill Clinton (or anyone, in any party) could be stumped by certain quiz questions at certain times. I don't know what that really tells us about anyone's ability to lead (again, Palin is off the charts here, I'm not defending her, though I'll probably get attacked anyway). We could just nominate Jeopardy contestants to run for president, they can spew knowledge.

I agree as well. It was like when Bush couldn't remember or pronounce the name of a world leader of a small country. It is not a sign of lack of intelligence to not know everything. Bush isn't the sharpest tool and the shed, and Palin probably isn't either, but I doubt either have a very low IQ. Just not a real high one.

[Flasch186]

couldve also been stuff taught between her semesters in college(s). ;)

[Butter]

I think Palin is going to be decent tonight, but there's no way this has all been a ploy. She is almost solely responsible for the complete erosion of independents' support of McCain.

It should be a good debate. Hoping for a couple of wacky Biden moments and a couple of nervy Palin moments to make things interesting. Most likely what is going to happen is Palin will be stretching questions to remain on the 8 talking points she knows, and Biden will continue to hammer home that he loves McCain personally, but how can he be such an idiot.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Palin is too much of a liability to the future of this country and I will not take that risk and am voting for Obama.

It gives me no more of a warm feeling to know that a person with just as limited experience may be president right off the bat rather than VP. As Joe Biden said, he's "well-spoken". His speaking skills are the only difference at this point.

[JPhillips]

Vic - I really respect your opinion on this, as you seem to be much more informed that I. What do you think this means for Silver's 538, which is meant to be predictive of trends, that he began this move over the weekend? I have a lot of respect for Silver's work in baseball and am very interested to see how his political work pans out.

Can't speak for Vic, but the big problem for 538 right now is a lack of a record. He did well in the primaries, but he hasn't done a general election before, so we don't know how accurate he can be. I'm a fan, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him need a few election cycles before he's very accurate.

[sterlingice]

The whole Palin controversy is a blatant ploy by the McCain campaign to have her portrayed as a moron before she comes out and rips Biden a new asshole in the debate. The struggling through basic questions, "omg sexist media" stuff, McCain holding her hand through the Katie Couric interview, maybe even her daughter's pregnancy, it is just an illusion designed to lower Americans' expectations. I recall Vegas Vic many pages back saying Palin has shown herself to be an excellent debater when running for governor in Alaska, and that wasn't the first or last time I'd seen that mentioned. Tomorrow night Sarah Palin will shock America and the world. Expect a five point bump in national polling and Florida, Ohio, and North Carolina to be taken off the board. We'll all be staying up late on election night.

I think there's a chance of some of this. The deer in headlights look she gets in these couple of interviews just doesn't mesh with being a public figure, being a skilled debater in the past, and being a decent interviewer. Just like Obama last week, she has a chance to go out there tonight and move that "has confidence that she is qualified" number a whole lot. And if she does well, they don't have to trot her out much again because this will be by far her largest audience and news cycle to establish her as the VP.

Second point- people always say the VP never mattered. I think in this election, it very much would have. She pretty much breathed life back into a floundering campaign and made it a toss-up. Even after the vetting of her, which was horribly mishandled by the McCain camp (why lie about so many things that were immaterial?!? I get why any politician lies about important stuff but why about the immaterial)- it was a dead heat.

However, in the end, she won't matter now. One, her image has been completely changed. But, more importantly, it's the economy, stupid. An economic event on the magnitude of a major terrorist attack happened. If you're Obama, this helps you on Election Day. If it had been a national security issue, this race would be 8 points in McCain's favor and all but over.

SI

[sterlingice]

Quick! theres that color vs. that school thingy!

I LOL'd :D

SI

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I've heard more than one media outlet put out articles this morning stating that Palin is the real reason why the ratings will be so high tonight. They're either tuning in to see a train wreck or a crowning moment, depending on which side you're on.

Also, I've seen mentioned that Biden will serve more as a second moderator than a true opponent in the sense that he'll push the discussion, but his performance tonight will likely not affect whether voters switch towards or away from Obama. All of the movement of polling tonight will hinge on Palin's performance.

Both sound like pretty reasonable arguments to me.

[DaddyTorgo]

I think you're largely right Mizzou - although I think there are scenarios where Biden could affect the vote (although I concede that they will likely require Palin too). Nothing Biden says in and of himself is going to make people vote for Obama, but if Palin says something clueless and Biden can turn it and give a great response to it (not necessarily attacking her, but just demonstrating his knowledge) that might help. But like I said, I do recognize that that requires Palin too. Nothing Biden says on his own without involving Palin is likely to sway independents.

[sterlingice]

I'm sure Obama, or even highly intelligent Democrats like Bill Clinton (or anyone, in any party) could be stumped by certain quiz questions at certain times. I don't know what that really tells us about anyone's ability to lead (again, Palin is off the charts here, I'm not defending her, though I'll probably get attacked anyway). We could just nominate Jeopardy contestants to run for president, they can spew knowledge.

"Ken Jennings '12: It's time we nerds started taking over!"

SI

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

"Ken Jennings '12: It's time we nerds started taking over!"

SI

Replace debates with a week's worth of Jeopardy games hosted by Alex Trebek to determine who knows the most? I think Ralph Nader would perform very well.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

molson, she was asked what Supreme Court decisions she disagrees with. This isn't Andy Hiller asking Bush to name the leader of Pakistan. I think the question was a perfectly legitimate question to ask someone running for a national public office. Even if she didn't want to offer her own opinion, it's surprising to me, and I mean this honestly, that she couldn't offer up some typical GOP talking points. Maybe she's not to blame, but the McCain campaign that is supposed to be preparing her?

There's no way in hell they'd prepare her for a question like that. In addition, this is a perfect example of what I believe has been a critical flaw thus far in the advisor's handling of Palin. It was obvious that she was so busy trying to go through the file of talking points in her brain while putting together a response that she flustered herself and ended up fumbling around in the end. They're better off letting her speak openly than worrying about making a mistake. As I mentioned before, this same approach did in the Dole ticket in '96.

FWIW.......I think the question was a lousy in regards to the qualifier of Roe vs. Wade. She would obviously be passionate about that ruling and I'm sure that people on both sides would have loved to hear her points on that ruling. Honestly, she may have hurt her cause by speaking about that topic as many would disagree with her views. With the qualifier, we don't get much info, which defeats the purpose of the interview unless the questioner was trying to do exactly that. What more do we know about Palin if she says 'Brown vs. Board of Education'? If she says that, all we'll here is how the advisors did a great job preparing Palin, but it does nothing for her as a candidate. It's a no-win situation.

The practice of 'gotcha' questions rather than trying to draw more information is bad journalism, though it has become the norm unfortunately.

[sterlingice]

Palin is an embarrassment, but I really hope this doesn't start a trend of "quiz" journalism. I've never seen anything like it outside of Chris Matthews (perhaps just because there's not as many hilarious soundbites in regular interviews). It's pretty obnoxious - maybe Kouric should have just handed her a written quiz and then reported on the results.

I'm sure Obama, or even highly intelligent Democrats like Bill Clinton (or anyone, in any party) could be stumped by certain quiz questions at certain times. I don't know what that really tells us about anyone's ability to lead (again, Palin is off the charts here, I'm not defending her, though I'll probably get attacked anyway). We could just nominate Jeopardy contestants to run for president, they can spew knowledge.

But these aren't silly pedantic quiz questions as the previously mentioned "who is the President of Pakistan".

These are open ended interview questions that she's fumbling. "What's a Supreme Court case you disagree with" or "What's an example of John McCain being a maverick". You could pretty much come up with any half-baked anecdote that's barely related to the question and we just move on.

Hell, "what newspapers do you read"- in any other interview, that's a softball just to get people talking. It's an amazing amount of skill (or gross lack thereof) to turn that into a national story.

SI

[JPhillips]

There's no way in hell they'd prepare her for a question like that. In addition, this is a perfect example of what I believe has been a critical flaw thus far in the advisor's handling of Palin. It was obvious that she was so busy trying to go through the file of talking points in her brain while putting together a response that she flustered herself and ended up fumbling around in the end. They're better off letting her speak openly than worrying about making a mistake. As I mentioned before, this same approach did in the Dole ticket in '96.

FWIW.......I think the question was a lousy in regards to the qualifier of Roe vs. Wade. She would obviously be passionate about that ruling and I'm sure that people on both sides would have loved to hear her points on that ruling. Honestly, she may have hurt her cause by speaking about that topic as many would disagree with her views. With the qualifier, we don't get much info, which defeats the purpose of the interview unless the questioner was trying to do exactly that. What more do we know about Palin if she says 'Brown vs. Board of Education'? If she says that, all we'll here is how the advisors did a great job preparing Palin, but it does nothing for her as a candidate. It's a no-win situation.

The practice of 'gotcha' questions rather than trying to draw more information is bad journalism, though it has become the norm unfortunately.

It's shocking she doesn't have a stock, "I'm not going to second guess..." answer for these types of questions. Part of her problem is that she's trying to answer questions when she should just deflect them.

[KWhit]

The fact that people are calling the Kouric questions 'gotcha' journalism is laughable. The original question was incredibly simple to answer - a softball question to get her talking about her political views. "What other SC cases do you disagree with?"

But when it became clear that Palin couldn't answer it, what is Kouric supposed to do? Just let it go, pretend it didn't happen, and pat her on the back for a job well done?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

But these aren't silly pedantic quiz questions as the previously mentioned "who is the President of Pakistan".

These are open ended interview questions that she's fumbling. "What's a Supreme Court case you disagree with".

But let's be perfectly clear. She was not asked 'What's a Supreme Court case you disagree with?'. Couric created a qualifier in the question because she knew exactly which ruling Palin would be most passionate about. There's no reason to make a qualifier at that point. She could certainly asked about any others after that in a follow-up, but to do it right off the bat reeks of well-laid trap.

I'd also argue that the majority of Americans couldn't think of a case outside of Roe vs. Wade. Granted, they're not up for VP, but we have lawyers and advisors for a reason. No one's suggesting that Palin is terribly knowledgable from a political perspective. However, for a lot of people, that's one of the main reasons she's an attractive candidate. People are really tired of 'knowledgable' people like Frank, Dodd, Bush, etc. leading us into a mess and then suggesting they have all the answers on how to get out of that mess.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think the question was a perfectly legitimate question to ask someone running for a national public office. Even if she didn't want to offer her own opinion, it's surprising to me, and I mean this honestly, that she couldn't offer up some typical GOP talking points.

Off the top of my head, by name I can't think of any case other than
R v W that's a GOP talking point case though.

I could name some general areas that are sources of disagreement but by name? Nope.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

It's shocking she doesn't have a stock, "I'm not going to second guess..." answer for these types of questions. Part of her problem is that she's trying to answer questions when she should just deflect them.

Totally agree. The political tact is totally missing. Filling her with information in advance as they're trying to do doesn't help her a bit. She needs to make a straight answer or play it off much like Biden does in his interviews. He's very good at changing the focus when needed, which isn't something you learn overnight.

[molson]

I think I predicted my neutral comments would be attacked. Only 100% loyalty to our next Supreme Leader is allowed around here.

Palin's a complete idiot. Perhaps the dumbest person ever to be on a major ticket for president. Not sure how much clearly I can say that I'm not defending her, and that she should have been able to answer those questions.

But I can see journalists, from all politican leanings, trying to come up with "stumping" questions that sounds simple but might trip someone up. Chris Matthews has become a youtube sensation because of it. Couric knew she was dealing with an idiot and was intentionaly trying to create some infamous moments as well (IMO). It has the potential to be a bad trend.

[KWhit]

But let's be perfectly clear. She was not asked 'What's a Supreme Court case you disagree with?'. Couric created a qualifier in the question because she knew exactly which ruling Palin would be most passionate about. There's no reason to make a qualifier at that point. She could certainly asked about any others after that in a follow-up, but to do it right off the bat reeks of well-laid trap.

I'd also argue that the majority of Americans couldn't think of a case outside of Roe vs. Wade. Granted, they're not up for VP, but we have lawyers and advisors for a reason. No one's suggesting that Palin is terribly knowledgable from a political perspective. However, for a lot of people, that's one of the main reasons she's an attractive candidate. People are really tired of 'knowledgable' people like Frank, Dodd, Bush, etc. leading us into a mess and then suggesting they have all the answers on how to get out of that mess.

- Bangs head against wall.

People don't want knowledgable, informed leaders... sigh.

- Looks at our current president.

Obviously you're right.

[JPhillips]

But let's be perfectly clear. She was not asked 'What's a Supreme Court case you disagree with?'. Couric created a qualifier in the question because she knew exactly which ruling Palin would be most passionate about. There's no reason to make a qualifier at that point. She could certainly asked about any others after that in a follow-up, but to do it right off the bat reeks of well-laid trap.

I'd also argue that the majority of Americans couldn't think of a case outside of Roe vs. Wade. Granted, they're not up for VP, but we have lawyers and advisors for a reason. No one's suggesting that Palin is terribly knowledgable from a political perspective. However, for a lot of people, that's one of the main reasons she's an attractive candidate. People are really tired of 'knowledgable' people like Frank, Dodd, Bush, etc. leading us into a mess and then suggesting they have all the answers on how to get out of that mess.

Palin has criticized the Exxon ruling and hit Obama for his support of the Boumediene decision in her convention speech. There's every reason to ask her about SC decisions when she's used them as talking points.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I could name some general areas that are sources of disagreement but by name? Nope.

Agreed. A much better question would have been to ask her about each of the various controversial case matters rather than pull a question about specific case names. Ask her about her feelings on teaching creation in science classes. Ask her about abortion. Ask her about torture and whether it's right. Ask her if the 2004 election decision was correct. Ask her about all those things, but a question about specific case names is something that few outside of die-hard politicos and most lawyers would be able to summon quickly. You'll get the same information, but only one way of asking the question is meant to make that person look bad. The other will provide an informative forum for all voters as to how she would act if elected.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Palin has criticized the Exxon ruling and hit Obama for his support of the Boumediene decision in her convention speech. There's every reason to ask her about SC decisions when she's used them as talking points.

Absolutely! So why did Couric choose to phrase her question in a manipulate way rather than directly asking about why she criticized Obama's stances in those situations? Because Couric knew that the way she phrased the question could throw off Palin, leading to Couric's mug being plastered everywhere and giving name recognition to her struggling nightly news. To assume there's not multiple motivations for Couric to ask the question in this manner is flawed logic at best.

[molson]

So disagreement is attacking? What's the point of posting your opinion then? If you want to get into it, your response certainly seems a lot more ad hominem then the responses to your point - unless you aren't particularly interested in discussion.

It's attacking when you're disagreeing with things I'm not even saying.

[flere-imsaho]

Given Palin's Pro-Life stance, I'm suprised she didn't mention Planned Parenthood vs. Casey as a missed opportunity, and Justice Souter as not the kind of judge she'd like to see on the bench. Both are very stock GOP talking points.

Given her role as McCain's running mate, it's pretty astonishing she couldn't mention Hamdan vs. Rumsfeld or Hamdi vs. Rumsfeld, or just "The Guantanamo Cases". This is especially surprising given the way she otherwise goes on and on about protecting the country from Terror. Again, both cases are parts of stock GOP talking points.

[flere-imsaho]

I think I predicted my neutral comments would be attacked. Only 100% loyalty to our next Supreme Leader is allowed around here.

Are you saying people attacked you for post #6365?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

- Bangs head against wall.

People don't want knowledgable, informed leaders... sigh.

- Looks at our current president.

Obviously you're right.

Once again, a total mischaracterization of my point. We've got a whole lot of idiots in government right now. Anyone who listens to members of Congress in some of these hearings on a regular basis would know that. The fact that Palin is considered a better option by a large segment of the population than what we currently have speaks far more to the inept nature of our current President and our Congress than anything Palin has done during her brief career and campaign. I put ticks around the word 'knowledgable' for a reason. The fact that our current government is lead by Bush, Pelosi, Reid, Dodd, and Frank is frightening at best.

[molson]

Given Palin's Pro-Life stance, I'm suprised she didn't mention Planned Parenthood vs. Casey as a missed opportunity, and Justice Souter as not the kind of judge she'd like to see on the bench. Both are very stock GOP talking points.



You're right, and I think part of her problem is that she's not a lawyer. She has a very uninspired academic career, and then a regional political career. It's not out of the realm of possibility that everything she's ever known about the Supreme Court, she's learned since she was named running mate. When would she ever come across Planned Parenthood v. Casey?

And that's McCain's fault for picking her, of course. I wonder if it's possible that they were gambling that the American people would either not care about such a background, or even find it somehow charming.

[Flasch186]

But I can see journalists, from all politican leanings, trying to come up with "stumping" questions that sounds simple but might trip someone up. Chris Matthews has become a youtube sensation because of it. Couric knew she was dealing with an idiot and was intentionaly trying to create some infamous moments as well (IMO). It has the potential to be a bad trend.

I actually agree with you that if it became trendy it could be a bad thing and destructive to journalism in that people wont want to cooperate for fear of the "gotcha" moment.

[DaddyTorgo]

Agreed. A much better question would have been to ask her about each of the various controversial case matters rather than pull a question about specific case names. Ask her about her feelings on teaching creation in science classes. Ask her about abortion. Ask her about torture and whether it's right. Ask her if the 2004 election decision was correct. Ask her about all those things, but a question about specific case names is something that few outside of die-hard politicos and most lawyers would be able to summon quickly. You'll get the same information, but only one way of asking the question is meant to make that person look bad. The other will provide an informative forum for all voters as to how she would act if elected.

i think couric would have been okay with palin saying "oh i forget the name, but the case involving xyz." I don't think most people are saying she should have a knowledge of all cases argued before the court by name and subject, but at least be able to talk about the subjects!

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

And that's McCain's fault for picking her, of course. I wonder if it's possible that they were gambling that the American people would either not care about such a background, or even find it somehow charming.

Tonight will be an excellent measuring stick of exactly that. Does she do well from an answer perspective? If not, does she come off as 'real' enough to override any deficiencies in her answers?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Mizzou and John - from what I can see, she never asked her to name a court case by name. ... I think your contention that she should talk about cases generally that she's disagreed with is exactly what is being asked.

In absolute sincerity, if you asked me "what other SC decisions do you disagree with", I would interpret that just as I did here: as asking for cases by name.

As an old journalist, if I had used those same words, that's the level of response I would have been looking for (doubt I would have phrased the question that way myself regardless, unless I was trying to lead them to something very specific anyway).

If I was looking for areas, I would have phrased it more like "what other areas do you find yourself disagreeing with SC rulings about" ... but maybe that's just a difference in questioning style {shrug} I can't say one way or the other for sure about that. But for me, it was usually easiest to get the response I wanted if I phrased the question in a way that lended itself most to what I was looking for.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

i think couric would have been okay with palin saying "oh i forget the name, but the case involving xyz." I don't think most people are saying she should have a knowledge of all cases argued before the court by name and subject, but at least be able to talk about the subjects!

And I've already addressed that point, which has nothing to do with the question. The topic concerning Couric's question and the topic concerning the screwed-up way they are handling Palin are two totally different topic. I agree that they are turning her into mush by trying to stuff her full of talking points, but that doesn't change the fact that the question was meant to cross her up.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I actually agree with you that if it became trendy it could be a bad thing and destructive to journalism in that people wont want to cooperate for fear of the "gotcha" moment.

Please. Politicians will appear with Colbert, you think they're smart enough as a group to react by avoiding this sort of situation? Remember, it was never impossible to find a CEO willing to sit down with Mike Wallace.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

In absolute sincerity, if you asked me "what other SC decisions do you disagree with", I would interpret that just as I did here: as asking for cases by name.

As an old journalist, if I had used those same words, that's the level of response I would have been looking for (doubt I would have phrased the question that way myself regardless, unless I was trying to lead them to something very specific anyway).

If I was looking for areas, I would have phrased it more like "what other areas do you find yourself disagreeing with SC rulings about" ... but maybe that's just a difference in questioning style {shrug} I can't say one way or the other for sure about that. But for me, it was usually easiest to get the response I wanted if I phrased the question in a way that lended itself most to what I was looking for.

+1. I currently do a lot of interviews in an arena outside of politics. I thought the exact same thing when I heard the question and it was obvious that Palin did as well.

[DaddyTorgo]

I think at this point its best we agree to disagree. I totally fail to see how "what other Supreme Court decisions do you disagree with?" is a question meant to cross someone up, unless Couric had a quote from Palin's past supporting a decision that she was likely to state she was against. Biden handled this doozy just fine.

exactly

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I think at this point its best we agree to disagree. I totally fail to see how "what other Supreme Court decisions do you disagree with?" is a question meant to cross someone up, unless Couric had a quote from Palin's past supporting a decision that she was likely to state she was against. Biden handled this doozy just fine.

Biden handled it well, though he did it by not answering the question, which is once again something I've already pointed out (lack of tact by Palin in interviews compared to Biden).

[DaddyTorgo]

Biden handled it well, though he did it by not answering the question, which is once again something I've already pointed out (lack of tact by Palin in interviews compared to Biden).
-------------------------------------------
COURIC: (to Biden): What are the Supreme Court decisions you disagree with?
BIDEN: You know, I'm the guy who wrote the Violence Against Women act. And I said that every woman in America, if they are beaten and abused by a man, should be able to take that person to court. Meaning you should be able to go to federal court and sue in federal court the man who abused you if you can prove that abuse. But they said no that a woman, there's no federal jurisdiction and I held, they acknowledged, I held about 1,000 hours of hearings proving that there's an effect in interstate commerce. Women who are abused and beaten and beaten are women who are not able to be in the work force. And the Supreme Court said there is an impact on commerce but this is federalizing a private crime and we're not going to allow it. I think the Supreme Court was wrong about that decision.
---------------------------------------------

Seems to me that's a Supreme Court decision right there. Now given, it's a decision not to hear a case versus a ruling on a case, but it's also an issue that he was very involved with so that's okay by me. Particularly because in large part, a decision by the Supreme Court to refuse to hear a case is in itself a judgement on the case (even if it's for statutory reasons).

[Maple Leafs]

Funny like from Klein on this mess:

We've left the realm where the failure rests with Sarah Palin's experience or prep staff and entered the realm where her high school civics teacher should be fired, or dragged out of retirement and shamed.

[larrymcg421]

What more do we know about Palin if she says 'Brown vs. Board of Education'? If she says that, all we'll here is how the advisors did a great job preparing Palin, but it does nothing for her as a candidate. It's a no-win situation.

Um, if she says Brown v. Board of Education, then Obama is up by like 20 points right now and McCain is on his knees begging Romney to be his new VP candidate. So maybe she did think of other cases but was smart enough not to answer them.

She could have scored points by mentioning Dred Scott or Plessy v. Ferguson. I'd really like to hear her opnions on Griswold. Of course, to be honest, it wouldn't much matter what she answered. Palin could save a drowning baby that Biden pushed into the river and it still wouldn't change my vote.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Um, if she says Brown v. Board of Education, then Obama is up by like 20 points right now and McCain is on his knees begging Romney to be his new VP candidate. So maybe she did think of other cases but was smart enough not to answer them.

Of course. I just pulled out a case name. My knowledge of exact case names isn't much better than Palin's in that regard.

[molson]

Um, if she says Brown v. Board of Education, then Obama is up by like 20 points right now and McCain is on his knees begging Romney to be his new VP candidate.

That would be totally awesome if she said that...maybe tonight.

[Maple Leafs]

I know there are Palin supporters who really want to believe that she doesn't answer questions like the Supreme Court one, or how McCain is a reformer, or even what newspaper she reads, because she has some sort of built-in political instinct that alerts her to a potential trap and allows her to avoid it.

Fine.

Is it too much to ask that she be able to think on her feet enough to say something coherent? To at least give a non-answer that makes sense? I don't mean politically, I mean something that's recognizable as english.

[flere-imsaho]

You're right, and I think part of her problem is that she's not a lawyer. She has a very uninspired academic career, and then a regional political career. It's not out of the realm of possibility that everything she's ever known about the Supreme Court, she's learned since she was named running mate. When would she ever come across Planned Parenthood v. Casey?

I think it goes far beyond her not being a lawyer. We're talking, after all, about SCOTUS decisions that have been GOP talking points for some time now.

It just seems crazy that on two of the GOP's biggest issues she can't even reference in general terms SCOTUS decisions with which she disagrees.

Let's assume her focus has just been regional, though. Well, she's a firm supporter of states' rights, right (she even says so to Couric). How about 2004 Alaska Dept of Environmental Protection vs. EPA (http://www.oyez.org/cases/2000-2009/2003/2003_02_658/), where the "liberal" wing of the Court wrote in favor (5-4) of the EPA over Alaska on environmental protections vis-a-vis mining?

How about 1997 United States vs. Alaska (http://www.oyez.org/cases/1990-1999/1996/1996_84_orig/) (revisited in 2005 (http://www.oyez.org/cases/2000-2009/2004/2004_128_orig/)) where the court ruled that the Fed owns submerged lands off of Alaska's coast, not Alaska?

And that's McCain's fault for picking her, of course. I wonder if it's possible that they were gambling that the American people would either not care about such a background, or even find it somehow charming.

I think you're probably on the money here.

[flere-imsaho]

I would bet good money (if this bet could actually be done) that if you asked the Supreme Court question of all the GOP Governors, you'd get, right off the bat:

1. Some case specific to their State that their State just got zinged on.

2. Hamdan/Hamdi vs. Rumsfeld (or just "The Guantanamo Cases")

3. Planned Parenthood vs. Casey

I'd also bet that a good portion of them would reference Kelo as a case that blew their mind (and probably reference state legislation they introduced specifically to mitigate Kelo).

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I know there are Palin supporters who really want to believe that she doesn't answer questions like the Supreme Court one, or how McCain is a reformer, or even what newspaper she reads, because she has some sort of built-in political instinct that alerts her to a potential trap and allows her to avoid it.

Fine.

Is it too much to ask that she be able to think on her feet enough to say something coherent? To at least give a non-answer that makes sense? I don't mean politically, I mean something that's recognizable as english.

Again, a total mischaracterization of any post concerning Palin's answers. Absolutely NO ONE has claimed that she's avoiding answering the question because she has political instinct that alerts her to a trap. As many have already said repeatedly in the past couple of pages, the Republican advisors have chosen to try to stuff her full of information to prepare her for these interviews, which most believe is a tactic that has fallen flat on its face. If they continue to do that in preparation for tonight's debate without working on her 'defensive answering' skills to give good evasive answers when she doesn't have a great answer, she'll fail just as badly tonight and this election will be over. Her failure tonight would be a death-knell to the ticket. If Biden screws up, it's just Biden being Biden. No one will care if he does well either for that matter.

[molson]

I would bet good money (if this bet could actually be done) that if you asked the Supreme Court question of all the GOP Governors, you'd get, right off the bat:

1. Some case specific to their State that their State just got zinged on.

2. Hamdan/Hamdi vs. Rumsfeld (or just "The Guantanamo Cases")

3. Planned Parenthood vs. Casey

I'd also bet that a good portion of them would reference Kelo as a case that blew their mind (and probably reference state legislation they introduced specifically to mitigate Kelo).

Maybe, but I don't see how a governor of any state, especially Alaska, would need to know any of that, especially if they weren't in office when the cases came down. (And in the case of #2, has absolutely nothing to do with her job).

She was mayor of a pretty small town, what, 2 years ago? I doubt she spent meant must time reading up on Supreme Court activity.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

How little do things change over the years? I'm guessing that Biden and Palin could sub in the names of this year's candidates and use these same opening statements from 32 years ago for the most part....................

The First VP Debate: Dole-Mondale, 10-15-76 (http://www.janda.org/politxts/Presidential%20debates/debates.76/vp-76.html)

MR. DOLE: Thank you very much. First, I wish to thank the League of Women Voters, and this is a great privilege and honor for me. I also wanna thank my many friends in Russell, Kansas, for that big long telegram I received today. I think tonight may be sort of a fun evening. It's a very important evening; it's a very historic evening. But I've known ah my counterpart for some time, and we've been friends and we're - we'll be friends when this debate is over and we'll be friends when the election is over and he'll still be in the Senate. (laughter) And I think first of all I should make it very clear that I'm most proud to be on the ticket with President Ford. I've known President Ford for sixteen years - sixteen years. It's a long time. He's known me for that long. I know him to be a man of compassion and competence. He has that confidence and he projects that leadership that America needs and that you need right now. Now, I don't know much about uh - Governor Carter. I've tried to find out. I know he's very ambitious. I know he wants to be president. He's been running for three years. But I know he said uh - at least one thing - that he does agree with my opponent, my friend, uh - Walter Mondale, probably the most liberal senator in the United States Senate. And that's really what this debate's all about. If by some uh - tragic circumstance one of us should become president of the United States, where do we stand on the issues? I would just say in a very uh - summary way that I have a great deal of faith in you, the American people. I'm concerned about farmers and housewives and young people and professional people, working men and women. I think we can find our solutions working together. My opponent has a record of voting for ever- every inflationary spending program except in defense, where he votes for every cut. And we'll explore that as this debate goes on.

MR. MONDALE: I believe that most Americans would agree on the problems that this country faces and that the next - and which the next administration must solve. They include the need once again for an economy that works. The economy today is in very, very bad shape - the highest unemployment since the Great Depression, 50 percent higher than when Mr. Ford took office; raging inflation, with the latest uh - wholesale price indexes once again su- raising the specter of double-digit inflation. The purchasing power of the average American has slipped so much that it is now the equivalent of the purchasing power in 1965. It is not getting better. It is getting worse. All the leading indicators now point downward, and stock investors are now losing confidence and over $50 billion of value has disappeared from the stock market in less than a month. We need a government that works, and we need a government that cares, and once again we have to get back to work on education, on health, on housing, on the environment, on energy; and we need a foreign policy that once again reflects the values and the beliefs of the American people. This will take leadership, and we need leadership, too. The Republican administration, the Republican party has had eight years to solve these problems. All of them have gotten worse. The Republican ticket does not offer new plans for their solution but is engaged in a frantic effort to defend the past. This nation desperately needs new leadership. The Carter-Mondale ticket would offer a new generation of leadership dedicated to solu- to solving the problems which I have listed, and that is the basis of our appeal.

[sterlingice]

That's great, MBBF :D

SI

[JediKooter]

It gives me no more of a warm feeling to know that a person with just as limited experience may be president right off the bat rather than VP. As Joe Biden said, he's "well-spoken". His speaking skills are the only difference at this point.


From Wiki:

Barack Obama
Member of the Illinois Senate
from the 13th district
In office
January 8, 1997 – November 4, 2004

Junior Senator
from Illinois
Incumbent
Assumed office
January 4, 2005

Sarah Palin
11th Governor of Alaska
Incumbent
Assumed office
December 4, 2006

I have to disagree with them having equally limited experience at a level that counts. Sorry, but, Mayor of a town, with only about 5,500 people, and a city council member are hardly in the same league as a state senator and U.S. senator.

Lots of politicians and non politicians are well spoken, so I don't get the point.

[larrymcg421]

-------------------------------------------
COURIC: (to Biden): What are the Supreme Court decisions you disagree with?
BIDEN: You know, I'm the guy who wrote the Violence Against Women act. And I said that every woman in America, if they are beaten and abused by a man, should be able to take that person to court. Meaning you should be able to go to federal court and sue in federal court the man who abused you if you can prove that abuse. But they said no that a woman, there's no federal jurisdiction and I held, they acknowledged, I held about 1,000 hours of hearings proving that there's an effect in interstate commerce. Women who are abused and beaten and beaten are women who are not able to be in the work force. And the Supreme Court said there is an impact on commerce but this is federalizing a private crime and we're not going to allow it. I think the Supreme Court was wrong about that decision.
---------------------------------------------

Seems to me that's a Supreme Court decision right there. Now given, it's a decision not to hear a case versus a ruling on a case, but it's also an issue that he was very involved with so that's okay by me. Particularly because in large part, a decision by the Supreme Court to refuse to hear a case is in itself a judgement on the case (even if it's for statutory reasons).

Actually, Biden is talking about a case they heard. The case was United States v. Morrison and a woman who was raped tried to sue her attackers under the Violence against Women Act. SCOTUS said that Congress did not have the authority under the commerce clause or the 14th amendment to pass that law. It's one of the most important recent cases that deals with federalism and gives a clear understanding of the type of justices Biden would likely appoint if he was in that position.

What also impresses me is that he understands why the case was overruled and didn't try to demagogue it by saying something like, "The Supreme Court obviously didn't care about violence against women."

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I have to disagree with them having equally limited experience at a level that counts. Sorry, but, Mayor of a town, with only about 5,500 people, and a city council member are hardly in the same league as a state senator and U.S. senator.

Lots of politicians and non politicians are well spoken, so I don't get the point.

1. Governor and U.S. senator are pretty similar in stature as far as I'm concern. Certainly, no one comes even close to saying that Obama or Palin have the experience necessary for President. If they do, they're likely partisan at best.

2. I'm sorry. I should have said articulate instead of well-spoken........

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,"

[DaddyTorgo]

Actually, Biden is talking about a case they heard. The case was United States v. Morrison and a woman who was raped tried to sue her attackers under the Violence against Women Act. SCOTUS said that Congress did not have the authority under the commerce clause or the 14th amendment to pass that law. It's one of the most important recent cases that deals with federalism and gives a clear understanding of the type of justices Biden would likely appoint if he was in that position.

What also impresses me is that he understands why the case was overruled and didn't try to demagogue it by saying something like, "The Supreme Court obviously didn't care about violence against women."

+1 for you. Didn't realize they'd actually heard the case - the way he made it sound was like they refused to hear it on the grounds they didn't have jurisdiction. Nice though.

[JediKooter]

1. Governor and U.S. senator are pretty similar in stature as far as I'm concern. Certainly, no one comes even close to saying that Obama or Palin have the experience necessary for President. If they do, they're likely partisan at best.

2. I'm sorry. I should have said articulate instead of well-spoken........

I'll take Obama's 10 plus years as a state senator and US senator over Palin's almost 2 years as governor. Obama has a viable person in Biden, that if Obama could not finish his term, Biden would be a competent replacement. Palin however...I wouldn't trust her to be able to take over a pie eating contest.

I guess I just don't see the problem with being articulate or well spoken. People have a problem with how Bush talks and say he sounds stupid. So apparently, being able to form coherent sentences and not sound like an idiot at that level is important to people.

Is the Obama/Biden ticket the perfect ticket in my eyes? Nope. The problem is, the McCain/Palin ticket is far far less perfect with Palin on there.

[flere-imsaho]

1. Governor and U.S. senator are pretty similar in stature as far as I'm concern. Certainly, no one comes even close to saying that Obama or Palin have the experience necessary for President. If they do, they're likely partisan at best.

What experience is necessary to be President?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

What experience is necessary to be President?

If we knew the exact measure, this thread would be 1 1/2 pages long. :D

I'm of the opinion that 'experience' is highly overrated, fully knowing that my stance in that instance helps out the candidate I do not favor. I prefer common sense when selecting a candidate. My personal opinion is that McCain is a lot more of a straight shooter than Obama and is opposed to higher taxes and spending, which is much more in line with my thinking than Obama. I also don't mind a president with a mean streak, so that doesn't bother me with McCain nearly as much as it does others.

[GrantDawg]

I don't see your logic behind this. One of the big points of recent GOP dogma has been railing against activist judges.

Couldn't this have been a fairly simple response for her, one that came to mind almost immediately for me - someone who is not running on the same ticket as this man?

McCain: Guantanamo Ruling One of the 'Worst Decisions' in History - FOXNews.com Elections (http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/06/13/mccain-guantanamo-ruling-one-of-the-worst-decisions-in-history/)


Thanks for reminding me of his comments on that. I think a may have to start actually actively campaigning against him.

[flere-imsaho]

McCain pulls out of Michigan. I guess the cancellation of the primary there wasn't enough.

That's a pretty significant event. We're a long way from the days with the common wisdom that whoever won 2 of MI, PA & OH won this election....

[Vegas Vic]

Obama has a viable person in Biden, that if Obama could not finish his term, Biden would be a competent replacement.

I'm trying to follow your logic here. What if Obama can finish his term? That's where the top of the Democratic ticket is starting from.

[flere-imsaho]

FiveThirtyEight.com's current state of the race (when he's not fighting with RCP - see the website for more):

To break down the math, we project all Kerry states save New Hampshire outside of five points, so that’s 252 minus 4, or 248. Then add Iowa (7 EV), New Mexico (5 EV) and Colorado (9 EV), and Obama hits 269. As Nate has explained, that would be as good as an Obama win. In fact, if we put the line at six points, we’d get the same result. Obama projects to win Colorado by 6.1%

As of this morning before today's polls update, we project Obama victories in Virginia (4.4%), New Hampshire (3.4%), Ohio (2.4%), Florida (2.4%), and Nevada (2.1%), with Indiana a tie. Give all these states to McCain, it’s 269-269 and an Obama presidency. Allocated by lead, it’s Obama 338, McCain 189, 11 tossup. McCain also projects precarious wins in North Carolina (0.1%) and Missouri (0.4%).

[larrymcg421]

He makes some good points against RCP, but did back down a bit on saying they were deliberately biased. They still should explain why they're randomly including some polls (like the ARG polls) after excluding them for so long.

As for a 269-269 tie, I wonder what would happen if McCain won the popular vote but there was a tie in the electoral college. Now that would be an interesting situation.

[larrymcg421]

But I can already see the arguments being made by the Republicans. They'll say that the electoral vote is most important, but when it is tied, why not go to the popular vote.

Of course, the counterargument is that the Constitution set up rules for just this scenario and specified that it be decided by the House.

[JediKooter]

I'm trying to follow your logic here. What if Obama can finish his term? That's where the top of the Democratic ticket is starting from.

The problems that Palin brings to the table if McCain is elected and dies in office or has a stroke and can't fulfill his duties as President is what I have a severe problem with.

The logic is picking either the Douche or the Shit Sandwich. Douche being Obama/Biden, Shit Sandwich being McCain/Palin. Picking the lesser of two evils. Damned if you do, damned if you don't and a host of other cliches that I can't think of at the moment.

Right now, the Douche is looking a lot better than the Shit Sandwich.

[Passacaglia]

http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/1008/McCain_pulling_out_of_Michigan.html?showall

McCain pulls out of Michigan. I guess the cancellation of the primary there wasn't enough.

Awesome.

[Fighter of Foo]

If we knew the exact measure, this thread would be 1 1/2 pages long. :D

We DO know the exact measure and it's really fucking short. :)

"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States."

I don't see anything about experience.

[Galaril]

Wow, I hadn't seen the stuff with Katie Couric and Palin specifically about what magazines she has read or court cases stuff and I can only say Holy fuck! As an american that is really fucked up. If McCain get's elected and he croaks and she takes over I am moving my family to Canada.

[JonInMiddleGA]

But I can already see the arguments being made by the Republicans. They'll say that the electoral vote is most important, but when it is tied, why not go to the popular vote.

Of course, the counterargument is that the Constitution set up rules for just this scenario and specified that it be decided by the House.

I don't even think that one is an argument (except in theory). There are pretty clear rules on what happens in the event of a tie, and while the losing side doesn't have to like them & could bitch until some very warm places became very cold, it would very much have to live with them barring the discovery of some loophole I've never heard of.

[sterlingice]

The problems that Palin brings to the table if McCain is elected and dies in office or has a stroke and can't fulfill his duties as President is what I have a severe problem with.

The logic is picking either the Douche or the Shit Sandwich. Douche being Obama/Biden, Shit Sandwich being McCain/Palin. Picking the lesser of two evils. Damned if you do, damned if you don't and a host of other cliches that I can't think of at the moment.

Right now, the Douche is looking a lot better than the Shit Sandwich.

That's Giant Douche and Turd Sandwich, thank you very much ;)

SI

[Passacaglia]

We DO know the exact measure and it's really fucking short. :)

"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States."

I don't see anything about experience.

I guess there's "life experience" in there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

This might have already been mentioned up the thread somewhere but if so I failed to notice it ... reports now say that McCain has pulled advertising & staff out of Michigan, effectively conceding it to Obama.

He's reportedly investigating opening a new front in Maine, as well as reallocating the Michigan resources to other states including Florida.

[flere-imsaho]

He's reportedly investigating opening a new front in Maine, as well as reallocating the Michigan resources to other states including Florida.

I fail to see the point of working more in Maine. Maine splits its EVs by district. He'll win the rural 2nd district and I don't see how he wins the suburban (Maine has no real urban area) 1st district.

And it's 4 EVs.

[timmynausea]

I doubt McCain's people expected to have to defend North Carolina and Virginia the way they have. With Obama pulling away in both Michigan and Pennsylvania, McCain almost had to pick one or the other to focus on as his last stand in terms of actually flipping a major Kerry state.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I fail to see the point of working more in Maine. Maine splits its EVs by district. He'll win the rural 2nd district and I don't see how he wins the suburban (Maine has no real urban area) 1st district.
And it's 4 EVs.

Tell McCain, I just work here ;)

[JPhillips]

McCain really needs to focus on a Bush States plan IMO. I don't think he's got a pickup opportunity worth spending resources on. He'll lose IA and NM, but if he holds everything else he can still win. Without a major turning point winning is a longshot at this point, but IMO defense is his best option.

[flere-imsaho]

Tell McCain, I just work here ;)

He won't return my calls.... :rant:

[flere-imsaho]

Joe Biden's debate prep revealed! (http://www.236.com/news/2008/10/01/debate_training_biden_learns_w_1_9211.php)

[lordscarlet]

What experience is necessary to be President?

Does executive experience make a good president? The results! « Ramblings of a pseudo intellectual (http://asifyoucare.wordpress.com/2008/09/15/does-executive-experience-make-a-good-president-the-results/)

Clearly it is a blogger, not a news source, but it is an interesting discussion.

If we knew the exact measure, this thread would be 1 1/2 pages long. :D

I'm of the opinion that 'experience' is highly overrated, fully knowing that my stance in that instance helps out the candidate I do not favor. I prefer common sense when selecting a candidate. My personal opinion is that McCain is a lot more of a straight shooter than Obama and is opposed to higher taxes and spending, which is much more in line with my thinking than Obama. I also don't mind a president with a mean streak, so that doesn't bother me with McCain nearly as much as it does others.

I am jumping in here late, and sure to get flamed, but... Are these statements true? Do all of McCain's (and Obama's) numbers match up? Can McCain afford to continue the troop surge and cut everyone's taxes? Can Obama afford his social programs and cut taxes for "85% of working families." Do you really care if Obama does not cut taxes for those making over $250,000? Maybe I am buying into the hype of the Obama campaign, but cutting taxes for those making under $250,000 sounds rather reasonable to me.

[DaddyTorgo]

I fail to see the point of working more in Maine. Maine splits its EVs by district. He'll win the rural 2nd district and I don't see how he wins the suburban (Maine has no real urban area) 1st district.

And it's 4 EVs.

ssssh...if he wants to waste his $$ there who are we to blame him?

[larrymcg421]

Joe Biden's debate prep revealed! (http://www.236.com/news/2008/10/01/debate_training_biden_learns_w_1_9211.php)

That is fucking hilarious.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Awesome.

Totally awesome. I now no longer run the risk of having the first thing I hear in the morning a McCain campaign ad. It has happened too often of late. No me gusta.

[DaddyTorgo]

That is fucking hilarious.

i laughed. i cried. i wet myself.

[molson]

RE: McCain conceding Michigan.

Why do that publically? I don't get it. I see scaling down, and maybe some blogger will notice, but why in god's name be so official about it and concede a negative headline today?

[Big Fo]

Nate from 538 has some critiques of RCP's methodology. An interesting read.

link (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/09/real-credibility-problems.html)

[Vegas Vic]

Nate from 538 has some critiques of RCP's methodology. An interesting read.[/URL]

If and when this guy establishes a credible track record of his own in a presidential election, then his criticism of RCP will carry deserved weight. As of now, all this guy has done is to constantly change his weighting and methodology throughout the election cycle. By his own admission, he is an enthusiastic Obama supporter.

At this point in time, given their 2004 performance, RCP is without peer in providing the most accurate electoral college and popular vote projections.

If fivethirtyeight.com outperforms RCP on their final projection this year, then they will rightfully move into the forefront in this relatively uncontested field. We'll have to wait and see what happens with the final projections on election day.

[SirFozzie]

John McCain said Thursday that Barack Obama’s poll numbers are rising as the economy seems to sink "because life isn’t fair.”

I guess this was "What the hell can he say that won't make him look bad", but this seems incredibly whiny.

[Maple Leafs]

If McCain get's elected and he croaks and she takes over I am moving my family to Canada.
Sorry, we're full.

Remember, every single US celebrity moved here in November 2004.

[DaddyTorgo]

John McCain said Thursday that Barack Obama’s poll numbers are rising as the economy seems to sink "because life isn’t fair.”

I guess this was "What the hell can he say that won't make him look bad", but this seems incredibly whiny.

:lol:

and on an unrelated note...campbell brown? i'd totally hit that

[Mac Howard]

So here we go :)

[DaddyTorgo]

lol - Palin to Biden: "Nice to meet you. Can I call you Joe?"

LOL

[Galaxy]

What's with the "Can I call you Joe?"?

[Big Fo]

Mac Howard, is the VP debate being shown live in Austrailia or are you watching on the web? Just curious.

[Maple Leafs]

Palin: Hi, nice to meet you.
Biden: Nice to meet you.
Palin: Can I call you "Joe"?
Biden: Go fuck yourself.

Rocky start.

[Galaxy]

Sorry, we're full.

Remember, every single US celebrity moved here in November 2004.

You mean the ones that said they would, but didn't?

[Maple Leafs]

You mean the ones that said they would, but didn't?
What? They were so passionate, I just assumed they all kept their word.

[DaddyTorgo]

ML - he didn't say that! no way! I didn't hear that

[DaddyTorgo]

haha - Palin is trying to credit McCain for the bipartisan effort succeeding

-- except it didn't succeed, and his own party has said he was a useless distraction

[Galaxy]

What? They were so passionate, I just assumed they all kept their word.

Susan Sarandon has said she would move to Italy or Canada if McCain wins. So, she's going to move a country (I know Canada has elections coming up) that has conservative (and might I say, more conservative than McCain) governments?

[Mac Howard]

If you're watching the approval meter, note how it drops every time anyone makes a partisan statement and rises when they express bypartisanship.

[Mac Howard]

Mac Howard, is the VP debate being shown live in Austrailia or are you watching on the web? Just curious.

Live on CNN and Fox.

[Galaxy]

LOL...."Neither one of you answer that question about what you would do as Vice President.".

[Galaxy]

Live on CNN and Fox.

Wow.

[Galaxy]

This is kind of interesting:

FT.com / Home UK / UK - Bloomberg plans third term as New York mayor (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5ff54236-8f50-11dd-946c-0000779fd18c.html)

[MikeVic]

I'd like to be Average Joe Sixpack. ;)

[sabotai]

10 minutes in and I already want to punch both of them in the face.

[Galaxy]

10 minutes in and I already want to punch both of them in the face.

No arguments here.

[SirFozzie]

Biden off to a good start, showing a strong respect for McCain the MAN, while ripping his POLICIES apart.

[Scoobz0202]

God, This is so awesome. This is so fucking awesome.

[Maple Leafs]

Palin was killing it for the first 15 minutes but she didn't look good on that last exchange, with the phony "I'm gonna talk to the American people" routine and then getting cut off.

[SirFozzie]

Eek, Risky Joe.. (Palin brings up that Obama "failed to vote" to cut taxes 94 times, and Biden fires back.. counting by Palin's terms, McCain's voted to raise taxes 400 times)

[Galaxy]

Biden off to a good start, showing a strong respect for McCain the MAN, while ripping his POLICIES apart.

I don't know. They both seem pretty aggressive towards each other. I don't see a message of "change" here so far. Both are spewing the he did this, but not showing what they did. Lot of style, lot of political crap, but no substance.

[Maple Leafs]

Biden almost made the CNN popularity chart thingee go off the screen there for a second.

[JonInMiddleGA]

10 minutes in and I already want to punch both of them in the face.

I've got you beat. I could have done with ease 10 minutes before the debate started.

[SirFozzie]

Biden with a nice bridge to nowhere line.

[Scoobz0202]

I just want to hear Palin once say,

I'm not sure I agree with you a hundred percent on your political work, there, Jon.

[Cringer]

This woman may make me move from voting 3rd party to voting for Obama. I can't stand so much about Palin.

[Maple Leafs]

I'd love to hear the moderator say "Nice two-minute rant against your opponent, but we're not going anywhere until you answer the question I asked you."

[Maple Leafs]

Hm, actually, she basically just did. And Palin won't answer.

[SirFozzie]

Palin is trying to rope-a-dope here. five weeks of debate prep installed talking points into her, with a link to few facts, they're hoping that the homestyle delivery will hide that.

[GrantDawg]

Biden with a nice bridge to nowhere line.


That was genius. McCain's health care plan is pure scary. $5000 wouldn't even begin to replace my works insurance plan, and I know my health coverage would be dropped if taxes were put on it. That's about as dumb as I've ever heard.

His promise to "deregulate insurance like he deregulated the banks" doesn't sound great either. Insurers are scam artist as is, can you imagine what they'd be like with less regulations? Would they ever pay for anything while taking even more of your money?

[Mac Howard]

Note how the approval went up when Biden said "I agree with the governor"? While partisan people will applaud criticism the independents hate it.

[SirFozzie]

Love this comment from the liveblog I'm reading:

Jonathan Kay: "The corruption and the greed on Wall Street" -- words from Palin's lips. What the hell has happened to the *Republican* party? Isn't this supposed to be the party of fatcats?

[Flasch186]

Palin's really being evasive at first blush, no?

[Scoobz0202]

Palin can't be doing this the whole debate. She totally dodges the questions and spews out talking points. The moderator, or Biden, need to start jumping on her, even moreso then they are.

[Maple Leafs]

Anyone else suspect that Biden's "I'm not sure whether McCain supports this obscure proposal" was a trap, to force the moderator into quizzing Palin on whether she knew what his stance was?

(She didn't seem to, but she skipped over it smoothly.)

[Young Drachma]

This is hilarious.

[GrantDawg]

She's playing to her strength here. I think most average joes are very much for increasing our energy independence.

[Scoobz0202]

Love this comment from the liveblog I'm reading:

Jonathan Kay: "The corruption and the greed on Wall Street" -- words from Palin's lips. What the hell has happened to the *Republican* party? Isn't this supposed to be the party of fatcats?


Not just you, but others as well, but what liveblogs are others following throughout this.

[SirFozzie]

Yeah. Palin's completely avoiding the questions now, and just spewing out talking points. Ugh-lee.

[MrDNA]

Palin's really being evasive at first blush, no?

Was that her I saw hiding behind the podium?

[Maple Leafs]

Palin just mangled her first soundbite. Got "man" and "climate change" on the wrong side of that "attribute to".

She's still trailing Biden in that department though.

[SirFozzie]

Here's the two I'm following

Debates | Election 2008 | Canada | News | National Post (http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/election-2008/debates.html) (may be full)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/oliverburkemanblog/2008/oct/02/uselections2008.sarahpalin2

[GrantDawg]

"I don't want to talk about the causes of climate change...." I bet you don't.

[Young Drachma]

Joe is seeming restrained and is doing a pretty even handed job.

She looks so woefully unprepared, that no amount of debate prep in the world would've helped her. Seriously. A mile wide and an inch deep.

[Flasch186]

First robotic response...the one on climate change.

[sterlingice]

That was genius. McCain's health care plan is pure scary. $5000 wouldn't even begin to replace my works insurance plan, and I know my health coverage would be dropped if taxes were put on it. That's about as dumb as I've ever heard.

His promise to "deregulate insurance like he deregulated the banks" doesn't sound great either. Insurers are scam artist as is, can you imagine what they'd be like with less regulations? Would they ever pay for anything while taking even more of your money?

Those pair of lines just scared me. I hadn't heard about the taxing of health coverage. That's just not what I want at all.

SI

[GrantDawg]

Joe is seeming restrained and is doing a pretty even handed job.

She looks so woefully unprepared, that no amount of debate prep in the world would've helped her. Seriously. A mile wide and an inch deep.


I think she was told to be charming. Did you see the little winks as she makes points? The little head nod? Don't you want the person in line to the presidency to be a cutesy cheerleader?

[Big Fo]

Biden is killing it here on climate change and energy according to CNN's snaking line.

[Young Drachma]

Clean coal is...bad news. You know how much water that requires? I know why the Dems support it, but meh.

[Young Drachma]

Women on the CNN line were really not happy with Palin during the energy talk.

Now its talk about teh gays. Seems the uncommitted Ohio folks are okay with it.

[sterlingice]

Joe is seeming restrained and is doing a pretty even handed job.

She looks so woefully unprepared, that no amount of debate prep in the world would've helped her. Seriously. A mile wide and an inch deep.

I thought both have come off decent so far. I'm a Joe fan so I'm liking his performance. Tho he isn't staring directly at the camera all the time. He also is looking a bit squinty today.

Also, I'm liking the moderator. She had me at the line where she said "neither of you answered the question"

SI

[Young Drachma]

"Tolerant."

[Young Drachma]

I thought both have come off decent so far. I'm a Joe fan so I'm liking his performance. Tho he isn't staring directly at the camera all the time. He also is looking a bit squinty today.

Also, I'm liking the moderator. She had me at the line where she said "neither of you answered the question"

SI

I think that Ifill is doing a very evenhanded job, agreed.

[GrantDawg]

"Tolerant."


"as long as you wear this special mark..."

[MrDNA]

Geez, Palin forgot to mention praying away the gay!

Palin's church hopes to 'pray away the gay' :: CHICAGO SUN-TIMES :: Barack Obama (http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/1150170,gay090708.article)

[SirFozzie]

Palin's debate prep, as told by Looney Tunes...

http://www.nonstick.com/wpics/rhdaffy.gif

"Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha - THRUST!" (quarter staff bounces off log, smacking him in the face and bending his bill.)

[Anthony]

woo hoo! both are against gay marriage! now i'm on board with this shit.

[Maple Leafs]

Women on the CNN line were really not happy with Palin during the energy talk.
So far, when the lines split the women seem to be loving Biden and the men are siding with Palin. Interesting.

[sterlingice]

It's scaring me more about how Ohio's "independents" are ok with segregating, as Dark Cloud put it, "teh gays".

SI

[Scoobz0202]

I'd be interested in seeing what that Uncommited Ohio Voters exactly is.

[sterlingice]

So far, when the lines split the women seem to be loving Biden and the men are siding with Palin. Interesting.

Biden clearly was added to the ticket for his sex appeal ;)

SI

[sabotai]

Clean coal is...bad news. You know how much water that requires? I know why the Dems support it, but meh.

Not only that, but the processes used to remove some of the pollutants require energy to run, so you need to burn even more coal because you need more energy.

[SirFozzie]

Give me a break:

Ifill asks if there's a plan for withdrawal for Iraq...

Palin says that Obama has voted against funding the troops, first, and then says because the surge worked, we cannot afford to lose. Which... doesn't answer the question?

Edit: And Biden calls her on it, and refers to the timeline Obama has already called on. Well done.

[sabotai]

Biden clearly was added to the ticket for his sex appeal ;)

SI

Grey hair and a balding head is teh super sexah!

[Maple Leafs]

Note to Palin: The "white flag of surrender" sound bite they wrote for you wasn't meant to be delivered after an awkward silence and a loud "um".

[sterlingice]

Wow, on the "white flag" line, the line actually dipped a bunch instead of going up.

SI

[GrantDawg]

That bar dropped hard from Biden to Palin there.

[sabotai]

Palin's debate prep, as told by Looney Tunes...

http://www.nonstick.com/wpics/rhdaffy.gif

"Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha - THRUST!" (quarter staff bounces off log, smacking him in the face and bending his bill.)

I LOVE that cartoon!

[SirFozzie]

Palin calls it a white flag. Wow. Just wow. They're never going to put another woman as VP, because this one is going to turn out as bad as Geraldine Ferraro :/

[GrantDawg]

Wow. Biden winning on Iraq. Who'd a thunk it?

[DaddyTorgo]

great hit back by Biden there on funding for the troops

[Buccaneer]

Not only that, but the processes used to remove some of the pollutants require energy to run, so you need to burn even more coal because you need more energy.

Not really. There are new technologies coming that can reduce CO2 emissions to 98.7% clean. You guys got to stop thinking that nothing will change in the way the energy (all kinds) is generated. Now is not the place to discuss this since nearly everyone is in silly troll mode.

[DaddyTorgo]

Give me a break:

Ifill asks if there's a plan for withdrawal for Iraq...

Palin says that Obama has voted against funding the troops, first, and then says because the surge worked, we cannot afford to lose. Which... doesn't answer the question?

Edit: And Biden calls her on it, and refers to the timeline Obama has already called on. Well done.

hey - caribou barbie is just working her soundbites man

[sterlingice]

Man, Biden keeps getting really high ratings on the CNN poll. Every answer practically is 75% or higher.

SI

[Mac Howard]

So far, when the lines split the women seem to be loving Biden and the men are siding with Palin. Interesting.



Very noticeable isn't it.

[Mac Howard]

She's caught the "nucular" bug :)

[sterlingice]

Did she just go "nucular"?

SI

[DaddyTorgo]

Man, Biden keeps getting really high ratings on the CNN poll. Every answer practically is 75% or higher.

SI

that's because Biden is fucking awesome

[GrantDawg]

"The Castro Brothers"

Didn't they just release a single?

[sterlingice]

that's because Biden is fucking awesome

(I know, but quit harshing my buzz. As a friend and I were talking about, we know we're big nerds because we have a favorite senator and for both of us, it was Biden. Unfortunately, by the time the caucus got to Kansas, he had already dropped out so I couldn't caucus for him :( )

SI

[DaddyTorgo]

okay - this is not the thread for this - i'm going to break it into another thread, but the political ass-kissing of the Jewish community is really ridiculous.

honestly, Israel is a shit-ally. WTF do they really do for us? In fact, you could argue they've gotten us into more trouble then they have provided benefit.

and i've felt that way for years. not to insult any jewish-folk on the board, but really...Israel is pretty much a two-bit country in a horrible part of the world that costs us a ton to support (not necessarily strictly financial)

[SirFozzie]

http://media.coveritlive.com/media/image/200810/ANi8p1hdSS_thumb_US7.jpg

Not sure if it's the camera view or the positioning, but Biden looks to be towering over Palin in this shot (if you can see it)

[DaddyTorgo]

mile-wide and a foot-deep by Palin. wow.

[Anthony]

okay - this is not the thread for this - i'm going to break it into another thread, but the political ass-kissing of the Jewish community is really ridiculous.

honestly, Israel is a shit-ally. WTF do they really do for us? In fact, you could argue they've gotten us into more trouble then they have provided benefit.

i always say a sovereign nation that requires the assistance of another nation to exist - does not deserve to exist.

[Dr. Sak]

http://media.coveritlive.com/media/image/200810/ANi8p1hdSS_thumb_US7.jpg

Not sure if it's the camera view or the positioning, but Biden looks to be towering over Palin in this shot (if you can see it)

Yes Foz...Binden is actually 2 feet taller. Jeez.

[Scoobz0202]

"we will never allow a second holocaust"

Jesus Fuck.

[Anthony]

eliminating Israel and allowing Palestine to have their own state would do more to stabilize that region than propping up a weak Jewish state that only serves to antagonize an entire region.

[Anthony]

Yes Foz...Binden is actually 2 feet taller. Jeez.

lol, i know.


HOLY SNAPS GOV. PALIN IS A MIDGET!

[MrDNA]

HA, you know THAT is never going to happen, even if you're 100% right.

[mauchow]

What is this live popularity snaking line thing everyone keeps talking about? I'm trying to find it on CNN and I can't. Linky?

[sterlingice]

http://media.coveritlive.com/media/image/200810/ANi8p1hdSS_thumb_US7.jpg

Not sure if it's the camera view or the positioning, but Biden looks to be towering over Palin in this shot (if you can see it)

And apparently it's 4th and inches

SI

[GrantDawg]

The anti-defamation league is going to shut down this board.

[Young Drachma]

What is this live popularity snaking line thing everyone keeps talking about? I'm trying to find it on CNN and I can't. Linky?

It's on their debate coverage. If you watch the live coverage, it's on the bottom of the screen.

[JonInMiddleGA]

eliminating Israel and allowing Palestine to have their own state would do more to stabilize that region than propping up a weak Jewish state that only serves to antagonize an entire region.

It would also be in a relatively stable condition for a considerable number of years if it were, just for example, nuked into a black glass wasteland too.

Point being, stability may not be the only goal to consider.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yes Foz...Binden is actually 2 feet taller. Jeez.

And from that photo, so is his podium.

[cuervo72]

And apparently it's 4th and inches

SI

5 dolla.

[Mac Howard]

That was clever from Palin - "for a party of change in the future you do far too much pointing the finger of blame back"

Didn't get any response from the approval rating though. :rolleyes:

[SirFozzie]

It's unbelieveable.. she had a low expectations barrier and I think she's tripped over that.. How many times has she failed to answer the question AT ALL, never mind completely?

[Anthony]

It would also be in a relatively stable condition for a considerable number of years if it were, just for example, nuked into a black glass wasteland too.

Point being, stability may not be the only goal to consider.

i don't get your point - elaborate. i'm curious where you stand on this.

[Tigercat]

This is one fugly debate.

[GrantDawg]

Biden has got to stop the deep breath intakes, and the sighs.

[sterlingice]

I think this is turning out not quite as people expected. At least from what I'm seeing.

-Palin is coming off as ok. Not great, but not bad. Certainly better than her recent interviews. Considering the expectations were "don't run weeping out of the stadium = teh win", she's beaten those.

-Biden has come to play. No stumbling over himself, no horrible foot in mouth (so far). He's been almost perfect- doesn't attack Palin at all, has done great supporting his candidate, has done great showing how good he is. His ratings on CNN constantly run in the 70s and multiple questions have touched over 90.

So what does that mean?

SI

[Anthony]

http://media.coveritlive.com/media/image/200810/ANi8p1hdSS_thumb_US7.jpg

Not sure if it's the camera view or the positioning, but Biden looks to be towering over Palin in this shot (if you can see it)

clearly Biden, in an attempt to alienate a female from the old boys network, is intent on showing "how big his weenie is".

[st.cronin]

i always say a sovereign nation that requires the assistance of another nation to exist - does not deserve to exist.

eliminating Israel and allowing Palestine to have their own state would do more to stabilize that region than propping up a weak Jewish state that only serves to antagonize an entire region.

Um... slight contradiction?

[rowech]

I plan on voting for McCain. Truth be told, if Biden was running for president I'd be voting for him instead. You guys are overblowing what in the heck is happening here. First you reference a CNN deal? Come on. You think that's neutral?

Biden is doing exactly what he set out to do and Palin is doing exactly what she set out to do. Neither has made a terrible blunder as of yet, both are getting in nice jabs against their opponents and defending their guy well. Palin has avoided some questions......just as Biden has. She's more than held her own.

[Maple Leafs]

-Palin is coming off as ok. Not great, but not bad. Certainly better than her recent interviews. Considering the expectations were "don't run weeping out of the stadium = teh win", she's beaten those.
She's doing fine. No Couric moments at all.

She's definitely not answering the questions, but neither did Obama or McCain in their debate. Will be interesting to see if the pundits jump on that.

Biden is doing a good job of walking the line -- he's forceful but hasn't bullied her.

[DaddyTorgo]

aaaah nice partisan attacks there by caribou-barbie on a totally unrelated question

[Dr. Sak]

clearly Biden, in an attempt to alienate a female from the old boys network, is intent on showing "how big his weenie is".

Oh come on he's lying! Not even Obama's is that big.

[miked]

okay - this is not the thread for this - i'm going to break it into another thread, but the political ass-kissing of the Jewish community is really ridiculous.

honestly, Israel is a shit-ally. WTF do they really do for us? In fact, you could argue they've gotten us into more trouble then they have provided benefit.

and i've felt that way for years. not to insult any jewish-folk on the board, but really...Israel is pretty much a two-bit country in a horrible part of the world that costs us a ton to support (not necessarily strictly financial)

We invest a lot in Israel, but they provide us with a boatload of technology and research. I had a prof in college who was a Psych prof, a class called sensation and perception, basically said in Israel they got tons of money for night vision and other useful war technology that is in turn supplied to the US. But that's for another conversation, people want to talk about why Palin is talking about Biden's Iraq war vote when it was a question about Darfur.

[Tigercat]

Biden needs to stop backtracking when he doesn't quite phrase things as he would like. When going up against someone like this, a few tiny missteps that go through won't be remembered.

[Vegas Vic]

Say what you will, but Palin makes Biden cringe every time she revisits his previous statements that Obama wasn't experienced enough to be commander in chief.

[DaddyTorgo]

because she wanted to get her partisan attacks in -- she forgot to get them in when they were talking about Iraq

[JonInMiddleGA]

Biden needs to stop backtracking when he doesn't quite phrase things as he would like. When going up against someone like this, a few tiny missteps that go through won't be remembered.

Old lesson from my radio days said to avoid calling attention to your mistakes like that since most people don't notice & trying to correct them just highlights them.

[Maple Leafs]

"John McCain knows how to win a war"

Wait, wasn't he in Vietnam?

[Dr. Sak]

"John McCain knows how to win a war"

Wait, wasn't he in Vietnam?

Come on he's John MCCAIN...not John RAMBO

[DaddyTorgo]

"John McCain knows how to win a war"

Wait, wasn't he in Vietnam?

didn't he crash his plane...and then get shot down?

[sterlingice]

Mod: "How would your admin be different"
Joe: "I'd be just like Obama. Here's what I'd do"

SI

[DaddyTorgo]

mavericks...mavericks...we get it palin

[Maple Leafs]

didn't he crash his plane...and then get shot down?
Shot down in Vietnam? He would have wound up as a POW. I'm sure we would have heard something about that by now.

[Mac Howard]

When she"and heaven bid that would happen" was she referring to an Obama win or his death? :)

[GrantDawg]

Ifill- "What will be your administration be like when you work with the mafia and have your president shot by a lone gun-man?"

[sabotai]

I saw a movie once called Maverick. I don't want a guy like the lead character in that movie to be President.

[sterlingice]

I think the folksy shtick has officially worn off. Every time she goes to the Wasilla or Alaska card, the meter goes down.

SI

[Dr. Sak]

Man if I weren't watching the debate...between DaddyTorgo and SirFoz, I'd think that Binden was the next coming of Jesus Christ for how good he must be doing.

[Young Drachma]

They're gonna out folksy each other. I love it. "I'm more Main Street than you."

Cute.

[SirFozzie]

Did she go Unfrozen Caveman Governor on us?

""It's so obvious that I'm a Washington outsider, and I'm not used to how you guys operate,"

http://www.rutterorganization.com/Images/caveman.jpg

"Your Washington world frightens and confuses me...."

[sterlingice]

I saw a movie once called Maverick. I don't want a guy like the lead character in that movie to be President.

That's a fun movie

SI

[Maple Leafs]

It's nice to hear a politician actually talk about small "c" coservativism, government staying out of people's business, etc. I hope she really believes that. If so, I wonder what she thinks of the last eight years.

[GrantDawg]

Man if I weren't watching the debate...between DaddyTorgo and SirFoz, I'd think that Binden was the next coming of Jesus Christ for how good he must be doing.


Yeah. He is not all that. He is doing a very good job, though.

[Young Drachma]

Say it ain't so, Joe.

[Maple Leafs]

Wow, we got a "Say it ain't so, Joe" and a "dog gone it" in one sentence.

[SirFozzie]

Man if I weren't watching the debate...between DaddyTorgo and SirFoz, I'd think that Binden was the next coming of Jesus Christ for how good he must be doing.

Biden actually came to debate. Palin hasn't given a complete answer to more then two questions.

[GrantDawg]

Oh gosh golly gee.

[Dr. Sak]

Yeah. He is not all that. He is doing a very good job, though.

I agree. He is doing well.

[sterlingice]

Did she go Unfrozen Caveman Governor on us?

""It's so obvious that I'm a Washington outsider, and I'm not used to how you guys operate,"

http://www.rutterorganization.com/Images/caveman.jpg

"Your Washington world frightens and confuses me...."

Awesome reference :D

SI

[DaddyTorgo]

hey - i freely admit i love biden. i was pulling for him in the primaries even though i knew it was a longshot

[Flasch186]

may never see that again, ever! A Shout out from the VP debate podium.

[Dr. Sak]

Biden actually came to debate. Palin hasn't given a complete answer to more then two questions.

Foz this isn't just with this debate, it is with every thing you post politically. Some of it is actually relevant, but then you start being borderline childish.

[Anthony]

Um... slight contradiction?

not in the least. when i say "allowing Palestine to have their own state", keep in mind it's not America's land to determine who gets what. it's not our fight. that having been said i think there's more in that region who would rather Israel not existing, and by removing that nation would appease more people and contribute more to peace than all these wasted accords and peace talks. Israel is that annoying twit in the schoolyard with an intimidating Big Brother standing behind him. Israel does not provide us with any valuable resources to make it worthwhile having them as an "ally". funny thing about being an ally, at some point Israel needs to show they can hold up their end of the bargain and can stand next to us in warfare. Britain is an ally. Israel is a mooch.

[GrantDawg]

I just can't in any way, shape or form, imagine this woman as president. I could see Biden. Not her.

[Maple Leafs]

Is this the McCain campaign's new theme? "Stop living in the past"? We can't talk about records anymore?

[Chief Rum]

We invest a lot in Israel, but they provide us with a boatload of technology and research. I had a prof in college who was a Psych prof, a class called sensation and perception, basically said in Israel they got tons of money for night vision and other useful war technology that is in turn supplied to the US. But that's for another conversation, people want to talk about why Palin is talking about Biden's Iraq war vote when it was a question about Darfur.

Actually, Israel buys about $3 B from us in arms every year, if I recall the Camp David Accords correctly.

The U.S. is the biggest arms dealer in the world, and also by far the most advanced technologically (not that other nations don't contribute, of course).

[Recoil]

When I hear her speak, I want to punch babies.

[Maple Leafs]

That shot on Cheney broke the CNN meter.

[Young Drachma]

I've never imagined that I'd actually prefer to hear George W. Bush speak over someone.

Palin is "presentable" so long as she's not talking. At least Dan Quayle got elected to the Senate.

[sterlingice]

"Putting aside the pitchfork and hooves, what do you think about the current VP's giant throne-like chair?"

Everyone loved the "most dangerous Vice President ever" line.

SI

[SirFozzie]

Foz this isn't just with this debate, it is with every thing you post politically. Some of it is actually relevant, but then you start being borderline childish.

Now, this is where I'm supposed to say that she started it, right? Seriously, man. I'm mocking it because it deserves to be mocked. We might not as well have a debate if you show up, decide you're not going to answer the questions put to you by the moderator, and talk about something completely different midstream. This is apparently the only way they could get through Palin through the debate.

[DaddyTorgo]

"Putting aside the pitchfork and hooves, what do you think about the current VP's giant throne-like chair?"

Everyone loved the "most dangerous Vice President ever" line.

SI

LMAO

[Flasch186]

wow, the VP statements showed a clear cut winner in the VP's role in gov't.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Meanwhile on Spike TV, there is a "debate" underway between Samoa Joe & Sting.

It's quite possible either of them might make a better President than any of the 4 actual candidates/understudies.

[GrantDawg]

I've never imagined that I'd actually prefer to hear George W. Bush speak over someone.

Palin is "presentable" so long as she's not talking. At least Dan Quayle got elected to the Senate.


I don't think she's painfull. She's mostly funny. She's like character in a Hollywood movie about someone that woke up one morning and became a VP canididate.

[DaddyTorgo]

LOL

did she just attribute Winthrop's "city on a hill" quotation to Regan?

wowwww

[Maple Leafs]

Biden goes to the dead wife card...

[Anthony]

We invest a lot in Israel, but they provide us with a boatload of technology and research. I had a prof in college who was a Psych prof, a class called sensation and perception, basically said in Israel they got tons of money for night vision and other useful war technology that is in turn supplied to the US. But that's for another conversation, people want to talk about why Palin is talking about Biden's Iraq war vote when it was a question about Darfur.

"yes, provide us with security that wil cost billions and as a token of our thanks - here's some nifty night vision goggles! YAY!"

[SirFozzie]

Meanwhile on Spike TV, there is a "debate" underway between Samoa Joe & Sting.

It's quite possible either of them might make a better President than any of the 4 actual candidates/understudies.

I'd love to see Samoa Joe slap a rear naked choke on Ahmadinejad.. now that's foreign policy I can get behind.

[Maple Leafs]

Stop saying "maverick". I'm begging you.

[GrantDawg]

Now, this is where I'm supposed to say that she started it, right? Seriously, man. I'm mocking it because it deserves to be mocked. We might not as well have a debate if you show up, decide you're not going to answer the questions put to you by the moderator, and talk about something completely different midstream. This is apparently the only way they could get through Palin through the debate.


Honestly, have you ever seen very many political debates. You just described 95% of the participants.

[Flasch186]

ROI = Maverick = FAIL