American protester killed by Israeli bulldozer

[Daimyo]

From cnn.com:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/17/mideast.violence/index.html

They had pictures of this in the Chicago papers today... looked like she was holding a mega-phone in front of the bulldozer. Next photo she was on the ground with two friends kneeled over her. Didn't look like an accident, but you can never know unless you're there I guess... I guess stuff like this happens everyday, but it takes an American being killed to actually get a word in the news here.

<b>American protester killed by bulldozer</b>
Rachel Corrie, 23, of Olympia, Washington, was killed in Rafah, Gaza, on Sunday when she was run over by an Israeli bulldozer. She had been protesting its use in the destruction of Palestinian houses .

Corrie had been working since January with the Palestinian-led International Solidarity Movement protesting Israeli actions in the occupied territories, said Huwaida Arraf, co-founder of the group.

Arraf said the bulldozer driver ignored Corrie's pleas to stop, saying after he ran over her, he "then reversed and ran over her again."

An Israeli military source called Corrie's death "a very regrettable incident," but also said, "this is a group of protesters who are acting very irresponsibly. They are putting everyone in danger ... by intentionally placing themselves in a combat zone."

Arraf said the activists only use non-violent means. "We definitely don't believe that this was an accident," she said.

U.S. State Department spokesman Lou Fintor urged the IDF to conduct "an immediate and full investigation into the circumstances of this death."

The United States also repeated its call for the IDF to take all possible measures to avoid harm to civilians, Fintor said.

[Killebrew]

Washington Post article has a slightly different slant:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35126-2003Mar16.html

"A U.S. Embassy spokesman declined to comment on the incident but said the State Department has warned Americans not to travel to the West Bank and Gaza Strip."

[Aylmar]

If a bulldozer is coming towards you and doesn't seem to hear or understand your pleas to stop....MOVE OUT OF THE WAY!!

[JonInMiddleGA]

I believe we have a new front-runner for the 2003 Darwin Awards.

[Fritz]

I bet this was one of those kick ass D9s.

"The D9s have long been used by the Israeli army for urban warfare, and is a major reason why they keep their casualties down. The D9 can plow right through small buildings, and knock down larger ones. The dozer can clear just about any obstacles from a street and it's dozer blade will set off landmines without harming the vehicle. The D9 was nicknamed "The Beast" by Palestinians and Israelis. An Israeli firm makes the armor kit for the D9."

[Ksyrup]

Do you see how soft we've gotten from years of non-agression? These people are so used to the relatively safe protests of the last couple of decades that they aren't properly prepared for a real protest. Chaining yourself to a tree to protect the rare albino warthog-headed owl is no training for this kind of thing.

Another person learns the hard way that wishful thinking and utopia have no place in the real world.

[CAsterling]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
I believe we have a new front-runner for the 2003 Darwin Awards.

Yep, she gets my vote.
Welcome to finding out not everybody treats protestors as though they are a protected species.

[sabotai]

Anyone else get a picutre in their head of that scene in Austin Powers where Austin is driving a steamroller (?) and the guy in the path screams "NOOOOOOO!!!" but he's like 50 feet away...and he slowly gets closer and finally runs over him?

I wonder if that's what it was like. Her screaming at the guy to stop be he slowly keeps going...

[Bee]

It's sad she was killed, but that happens when you go out of your way to put yourself in danger.

[Fritz]

From Killebrew's article:

"It's possible they [the protesters] were not as disciplined as we would have liked," Thom Saffold, a founder and organizer of the International Solidarity Movement, said in a telephone interview from the group's base in Ann Arbor, Mich. "But we're like a peace army. Generals send young men and women off to operations, and some die."

[Nirvanamats]

I actually went to school with this girl for two years before I graduated last June. Didn't have any classes with her but I trained her on the proper use of a Palmcorder when I worked in the media department. She seemed like a really kind person and I guess she was very active in the community in Olympia. It was kind of shocking when I saw the picture and realized who it was.

They were protesting Israeli's demolishing the homes of civilians. I think Israel has every right to exist and be secure, but they've been treating the Palestinians like animals for years and all it does is breed resentment, and I for one am glad to see a few americans with the guts to stand up to it. It's a sticky issue and I don't necessarily support either side, I think both sides do alot of wrong in this one.

[CamEdwards]

Nirvanamats,

I agree that it's a vicious cycle. That's why I was pleased to see Bush put some sort of onus on the Israelis the other day. I was also very pleased to see the Palestinian parliament reject a call by Arafat to present the cabinet for his approval. It seems maybe peace and a permanent state is more important than senseless acts of terrorism after all.

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by Nirvanamats
They were protesting Israeli's demolishing the homes of civilians. I think Israel has every right to exist and be secure, but they've been treating the Palestinians like animals for years and all it does is breed resentment, and I for one am glad to see a few americans with the guts to stand up to it. It's a sticky issue and I don't necessarily support either side, I think both sides do alot of wrong in this one.
Um, no. They were protesting Israeli's demolishing the homes of terrorists and suicide bombers. And if Israel has been treating the Palestinians like animals, I wonder how you would describe the way the PA and Arab nations have been treating them. Just why do you think they are forced to live under those conditions? Israeli oppression? Um, no again. Because of the hundreds of millions of dollars given to the PA to better their lives the vast majority has lined Arafat and his crony's pockets, or gone into building an infrastructure for terrorism.

Tarkus

P.S. In addition, the US has already warned people going to form a human shield for Saddam, that they are risking their lives in doing so. Not much of a difference hear. You put yourself in danger, you better be willing to pay the consequences.

[John Galt]

P.S. In addition, the US has already warn people going to form a human shield for Saddam, that they are risking their lives in doing so. Not much of a difference hear. You put yourself in danger, you better be willing to pay the consequences.

You see - it is the VICTIM's fault. They were in the way. They knew it was dangerous, but went anyway. They knew a warzone was a bad place to be, so they shouldn't have gone.

Hmmmmm . . . I wonder if you would feel that way if we were talking about a U.S. volunteer soldier in Iraq.

[Fritz]

there are places in the world where heavy vehicles don't stop for protesters. We now know of two.

[Nirvanamats]

In the articles I've read the group she was involved in was and is very aware of the risks. They were having shots fired over their heads on a daily basis and she had sent out an email describing a bulldozer incident only a few weeks ago. They continued to be there and do what they were doing even though they knew the risks because they must have really believed in what they were doing. Again, I'm not going to take a distinct side on the Israel/Palestine issue because I despise the methods used on both sides. I do have respect for people who are willing to put themselves in danger for their beliefs, be it for Israel or Palestine. This was a good person and she got killed and it is unfortunate, I remember her always having a smile on her face.

[dawgfan]

I cannot believe the degree of insensitivity of responses in this thread.

There is simply no excuse for the Isrealis to have run over this woman. If the Israelis absolutely feel the need to demolish these homes and someone is standing in the way, you arrest them and physically remove them from the path of the bulldozer. The actions of the driver of the bulldozer are indefensible.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by dawgfan
I cannot believe the degree of insensitivity of responses in this thread.

There is simply no excuse for the Isrealis to have run over this woman. If the Israelis absolutely feel the need to demolish these homes and someone is standing in the way, you arrest them and physically remove them from the path of the bulldozer. The actions of the driver of the bulldozer are indefensible.

I couldn't agree more.

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by dawgfan
I cannot believe the degree of insensitivity of responses in this thread.

There is simply no excuse for the Isrealis to have run over this woman. If the Israelis absolutely feel the need to demolish these homes and someone is standing in the way, you arrest them and physically remove them from the path of the bulldozer. The actions of the driver of the bulldozer are indefensible.
Were you there? Do you know what happened? How can you say the actions of the driver of the bulldozer are indefensible? If he did it intentionally you are correct, but unless you were there how can you make that claim?

Tarkus

[Fritz]

why didn't she get out of the way?

[couriers]

Maybe she didn't move out of the way because she was willing to die for her cause. Therefore there really shouldn't be all that much said about this in regards to feeling sorry for her. As well, maybe the driver was willing to kill for his cause. Unless I am mistaken this was a war zone and people kill and people die. Shed a tear, wipe our eyes and move on to figuring out the solution to the problem.

[dawgfan]

Originally posted by Fritz
why didn't she get out of the way?

Why didn't they remove her with non-deadly force? Why run over her? Why not take a couple of soldiers, physically remove her from the path of the bulldozer and arrest her for interfering with official Israeli Army actions?

[dawgfan]

Originally posted by Tarkus
Were you there? Do you know what happened? How can you say the actions of the driver of the bulldozer are indefensible? If he did it intentionally you are correct, but unless you were there how can you make that claim?

Tarkus

Even if the bulldozer driver didn't see her and didn't hear her companions yelling at him to stop, why were they permitted to be in harm's way in the first place? If this is really a combat zone, and the Israeli Army was conducting official business in demolishing these homes, why didn't the army arrest the protesters and physically remove them from the area, thus removing the possibility of such an accident?

If it was intentional, the driver should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of Israeli law for murder. That will never happen of course, because no matter what the truth may be, the Army will say it was an accident. Maybe it was, but it was an easily preventable one.

[Nirvanamats]

I met Ms. Corrie a number of times and she did not strike me as a fanatic who would intentionaly get herself killed for a cause. She did knowingly put herself in danger however and I think that this was most likely an accident, although most eyewitnesses state that it was clear the driver was aware of her presence. I would certainly give the driver the benefit of the doubt on his intentions though. But this is a tragedy, this was a very nice person who died doing something I know I wouldn't have the guts to do.

[dawgfan]

Originally posted by couriers
Maybe she didn't move out of the way because she was willing to die for her cause. Therefore there really shouldn't be all that much said about this in regards to feeling sorry for her. As well, maybe the driver was willing to kill for his cause. Unless I am mistaken this was a war zone and people kill and people die. Shed a tear, wipe our eyes and move on to figuring out the solution to the problem.

This is an area of terrorist attacks by Palestinian radicals, and perhaps an area of aggressive tactics by Israeli forces, but I think it's a stretch to describe it as a 'war zone'. Regardless, your reasoning only adds to the contention that the protesters shouldn't have been allowed to be in that position in the first place - if they are inhibiting sanctioned Army activities, physically remove them from the area and arrest them. Problem solved, and no ugly international incident with a protester killed.

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by dawgfan
If it was intentional, the driver should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of Israeli law for murder. ... Maybe it was, but it was an easily preventable one.
Agreed on the first part. However, you have no idea what goes on there. There have been supposedly injured people riding in ambulences that when you open the door they blow themselves up taking you with them. You have no idea what the army did or didn't do. You have no idea how the protesters were protesting, if at all, prior to jumping in front of the bulldozer. You have no idea if the army even knew they were protestors. Not all accidents are so easily avoidable, so to condemn anyone at this point is inappropriate. And let me reiterate, if you're going into a "war zone" to purposely put yourself in harms way, you've got to know that harm might actually come your way.

Tarkus

[Fritz]

Originally posted by dawgfan
Why didn't they remove her with non-deadly force? Why run over her? Why not take a couple of soldiers, physically remove her from the path of the bulldozer and arrest her for interfering with official Israeli Army actions?

It seems to me that she may have decided to not move. If this is the case, then she was playing chicken with a machine that was not going to lose. In this situation, I don't know that the IDF has a moral duty to keep her out of harms way.

If they do have a duty, then Isreal should keep all of the protesters out of the country. The added burden of protecting foreign nationals is probably more than they want to carry.

Of course, there is a good chance this was an accident on the part of the driver (as claimed).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by Fritz
If this is the case, then she was playing chicken with a machine that was not going to lose.

Hence my Darwin Award nomination.

[couriers]

Originally posted by dawgfan
This is an area of terrorist attacks by Palestinian radicals, and perhaps an area of aggressive tactics by Israeli forces, but I think it's a stretch to describe it as a 'war zone'. Regardless, your reasoning only adds to the contention that the protesters shouldn't have been allowed to be in that position in the first place - if they are inhibiting sanctioned Army activities, physically remove them from the area and arrest them. Problem solved, and no ugly international incident with a protester killed.

I seriously do not hold your view that it would be a stretch to consider this area a war zone. However, regardless of what type of area it can be classified as she and no one else should be allowed in front of a bulldozer. This shouldn't really be that difficult to understand. In a perfect world accidents like this do not happen but as someone else has already stated, the driver was only doing his job and claims that is was an accident so the benefit of the doubt should go to him. I am sorry to see a death of this nature but it has happened and there is nothing that can be done about it other than to help others realize that they shouldn't expect others to be in a position to save them when bad times fall upon them. In the least she should be commended for having the guts, intended or not, to die for her beliefs unlike many of the other so called human shields around the world.

My condolences to the driver who must live with the image of this in his mind for the rest of his life. My further condolences to the victims family and to others who knew her personally for the lose that they now suffer because of this tragic incident.

[dawgfan]

Originally posted by Tarkus
Agreed on the first part. However, you have no idea what goes on there. There have been supposedly injured people riding in ambulences that when you open the door they blow themselves up taking you with them. You have no idea what the army did or didn't do. You have no idea how the protesters were protesting, if at all, prior to jumping in front of the bulldozer. You have no idea if the army even knew they were protestors. Not all accidents are so easily avoidable, so to condemn anyone at this point is inappropriate. And let me reiterate, if you're going into a "war zone" to purposely put yourself in harms way, you've got to know that harm might actually come your way.

Tarkus

I have no idea what goes on there eh? And you do?

I admit, I've never been to that part of the world. I don't know personally anyone from that part of the world. I do however have some knowledge of what goes on there through various media reports. A local talk-radio host spent a week in various parts of Israel last year in an attempt to better understand the situation there, of which I was an avid listener. I read quite a bit about the region and the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

I don't know exactly what happened in this particular incident - I'm going off of various published reports. I do know that this group in general and this protester in particular were well-known to the Israeli Army in the area; I also know that there have been photographs published of her standing in front of the bulldozer with a bullhorn in her hand not too long before the incident happened; therefore, I feel beyond a reasonable doubt that she and the rest of the protesters were known to the Israeli forces to be just that, protesters, and not terrorists; further, I think it's pretty obvious that they were indeed protesting and known to be in the near vicinity of the bulldozer prior to the incident.

What we don't know is whether it was intentional or not. It's certainly possible that the protester indeed stumbled and found herself in a bad spot while the bulldozer approached as some have reported; it's possible that the driver didn't realize she was there, even though photos show her standing in front of that bulldozer in clear view shortly before the incident; it's possible the driver didn't hear her fellow protesters yelling at him to stop over the noise of the engine, or ignored their waving and trying to get his attention. It's possible it was just an accident and the soldier feels badly about it. Still, I ask why it is that if the protesters were positioning themselves in front of bulldozers in opposition to the Israelis, why where they allowed in the vicinity in the first place, and why were they allowed to remain if they were interfering with official Israeli business? Why even be in a position to have to explain an accident like this? Why would you not remove them by non-lethal force? This was a petite 23 year-old woman - it wouldn't have taken more than a couple of Israeli soldiers to forcibly remove her if necessary from the location and put her in jail.

[Daimyo]

Originally posted by dawgfan
Why didn't they remove her with non-deadly force? Why run over her? Why not take a couple of soldiers, physically remove her from the path of the bulldozer and arrest her for interfering with official Israeli Army actions?
They probably didn't realize she was American... they certainly don't seem to care much for the lives of the average Palenstian....

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by dawgfan
Why would you not remove them by non-lethal force?

Perhaps, and it's only a perhaps, the Israeli's decided it was past time to send a message to those who choose to interfere in their national defense activities, regardless of their nationality.

If so, I have no problem with that whatsoever.

[astralhaze]

Tarkus is gonna yell at you guys.

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
Perhaps, and it's only a perhaps, the Israeli's decided it was past time to send a message to those who choose to interfere in their national defense activities, regardless of their nationality.

If so, I have no problem with that whatsoever.

You have no problem with intentionaly KILLING protesters? Jesus.

[CAsterling]

Originally posted by astralhaze
You have no problem with intentionaly KILLING protesters? Jesus.

Sorry, want to reply but currently suffering a sarcasam overload - too many things I could say........must show restraint:eek:

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by astralhaze
You have no problem with intentionaly KILLING protesters? Jesus.

I'll say this slowly (you have to read it slowly for that to work though) so there's no misunderstanding:

If she was in the way or hampered the effectiveness of the mission in any way, then I have no sympathy for her in the least. And I have no criticism of the driver, whether it was accidental, intentional or anywhere in between.

She made a conscious decision to put herself in the middle of the situation, repsonsibility for the result lies solely with her.

[Aylmar]

Originally posted by dawgfan
Why didn't they remove her with non-deadly force? Why run over her? Why not take a couple of soldiers, physically remove her from the path of the bulldozer and arrest her for interfering with official Israeli Army actions?

Maybe they thought she'd have enough sense to get out of the way when she realized the bulldozer wasn't going to stop. It's not like a bulldozer can sneak up on you when you're not looking. Insensitive or not, if she didn't want to die, she should have moved. It's the chance you take when you place yourself in front of a huge oncoming machine, I guess.

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
I'll say this slowly (you have to read it slowly for that to work though) so there's no misunderstanding:

If she was in the way or hampered the effectiveness of the mission in any way, then I have no sympathy for her in the least. And I have no criticism of the driver, whether it was accidental, intentional or anywhere in between.

She made a conscious decision to put herself in the middle of the situation, repsonsibility for the result lies solely with her.

OK, I'll say this equaly slowly so there is no misunderstanding. That is absolutely reprehensible from a moral and ethical standpoint. If she was in the way she may have only hampered the effectiveness of the mission temporarily and she could have been removed quite easily. If it was intentional and was meant to send a "message", then it is murder, pure and simple and no amount of Israeli apologetics or rationalization changes that.

[JonInMiddleGA]

"then it is murder"

Actually, seems more like "justifiable homicide" to me.

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
"then it is murder"

Actually, seems more like "justifiable homicide" to me.

Justifiable how?

[Aylmar]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
"then it is murder"

Actually, seems more like "justifiable homicide" to me.

It's not homicide. It's suicide.

[Easy Mac]

If you read the article, it says she tried to move out of the way but to no avail. But I guess reading is too hard for some posters on this board.

I'll tell you what, how about you have your daughter stand up for something she believes in, and have someone brutally murder her.

I think some people should be up for the anti-Darwin award, the award for the people least evolved from hitting eachother with sticks.

[Subby]

I see a young girl who had the courage to go to a war ravaged land and stand up for people that the world has forsaken.

I wish more 24-year-olds had her conviction. While most of us sit on our fat asses hashing it out on an internet message board for video game enthusiasts, she was actually out trying to do something positive.

Maybe her decisions with respect to peaceful protest were faulty, but the criticisms of her in this thread seem completely callous and mean-spirited.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by Subby
but the criticisms of her in this thread seem completely callous and mean-spirited.

I just calls 'em like I see 'em. And frankly, I've tried to be as gentle as I could with my thoughts on the subject.

[Aylmar]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
If you read the article, it says she tried to move out of the way but to no avail. But I guess reading is too hard for some posters on this board.

I'll tell you what, how about you have your daughter stand up for something she believes in, and have someone brutally murder her.

I think some people should be up for the anti-Darwin award, the award for the people least evolved from hitting eachother with sticks.

Alright, show in the linked article where it says that she tried to get out of the way. The driver "ignored Corrie's pleas to stop". Is that her trying to get out of the way?

Face it, a bulldozer can't sneak up on you. You know it's coming. You either choose to get out of the way, or you don't. Is it tragic? Yes, to her parents and friends, it most certainly is. Avoidable on her part? Most certainly.

I guess I fit your definition of winning an anti-Darwin, though. I think that the best way to stop a destructive riot is to start shooting them.

NOTE: I would NOT categorize the referred incident as a destructive riot.

[John Galt]

I noticed no one answered my argument that she is no different than an American volunteer soldier. Aren't they putting themselves in harms way for what they believe? Should we just say they deserve what they got?

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
I just calls 'em like I see 'em. And frankly, I've tried to be as gentle as I could with my thoughts on the subject.

Then I guess your call is callous and mean-spirited.

[McSweeny]

Originally posted by Aylmar
Maybe they thought she'd have enough sense to get out of the way when she realized the bulldozer wasn't going to stop. It's not like a bulldozer can sneak up on you when you're not looking. Insensitive or not, if she didn't want to die, she should have moved. It's the chance you take when you place yourself in front of a huge oncoming machine, I guess.


bingo

[Subby]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
I just calls 'em like I see 'em. And frankly, I've tried to be as gentle as I could with my thoughts on the subject. Me too. I even refrained from using the phrase "tactless jackasses..."

[Easy Mac]

From the Washington post article:

"Corrie, who had been in the Middle East for about six weeks as a volunteer for a U.S.-based Palestinian support group called the International Solidarity Movement, was kneeling in front of the bulldozer and tried to scramble out of its way, said Tom Dale, 18, a British protester who said he was standing several yards away.

She thought they'd stop, but they kept going," Dale said. "She tried to stand up and fell over backwards. The bulldozer dragged her under its blade. About four of the internationals [protesters] gestured to the driver . . . but it kept going, and she was under the main body of the bulldozer."

I hope you can read that

[Aylmar]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
From the Washington post article:

"Corrie, who had been in the Middle East for about six weeks as a volunteer for a U.S.-based Palestinian support group called the International Solidarity Movement, was kneeling in front of the bulldozer and tried to scramble out of its way, said Tom Dale, 18, a British protester who said he was standing several yards away.

She thought they'd stop, but they kept going," Dale said. "She tried to stand up and fell over backwards. The bulldozer dragged her under its blade. About four of the internationals [protesters] gestured to the driver . . . but it kept going, and she was under the main body of the bulldozer."

I hope you can read that

I can. I hadn't read the Washington Post article. My apologies. I will say, however, that the driver might have never seen her if she were kneeling on the ground. It's hard to see over the blade, especially if it was one of their D9s.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by astralhaze
Then I guess your call is callous and mean-spirited.

A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.
-- Bertrand Russell

:D

[Easy Mac]

sorry, i came off abrasive man. poor form by me. im trying to work on that

[Aylmar]

No problem. I'm a bit abrasive myself, believe it or not. :) No hard feelings.

Edited because I edit everything.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by Subby
Me too. I even refrained from using the phrase "tactless jackasses..."

Sorry Subby, but what I may lack in tact I make up for in honesty.

"If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor."

- Albert Einstein

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.
-- Bertrand Russell

:D

Ha. Good one.

[Buddy Grant]

Let's all back off of the personal insults here, we all have the right to an opinion, even if it is a dumbass opinion.

Aylmar: if you really want to give an informed opinion there are many photo's of the event on many of the news articles. Try Yahoo or google news if you are still curious.

[Aylmar]

Thanks for the info, Buddy. I'll check them out.

[Fritz]

Buddy Grant has funny looking ears

[GoldenEagle]

Originally posted by Fritz
Buddy Grant has funny looking ears

I can't help but to laugh at this.

[Aylmar]

Yahoo news does have a good set of photos on the incident, but it gets us no closer to being "informed" about what really happened.

From the Chrisitan Science Monitor (from Google news) article:

"Rachel was alone in front of the house as we were trying to get them to stop," Greg Schnabel, a fellow protester from Chicago, told the Associated Press.

"She waved for the bulldozer to stop. She fell down and the bulldozer kept going. We yelled 'stop, stop,' and the bulldozer didn't stop at all. It had completely run over her and then it reversed and ran back over her."


The Seattle Times article says:

"When the bulldozer refused to stop or turn aside she climbed up onto the mound of dirt and rubble being gathered in front of it ... to look directly at the driver who kept on advancing," the group said in a statement.

That makes her actions seem pretty deliberate, if she's climbing up on the blade discharge. Later in the same article:

Smith, who witnessed Sunday's incident, said it began when Corrie sat down in front of the bulldozer. He said the driver scooped her up with a pile of earth, dumped her on the ground and ran over her twice. Smith said Corrie was dressed in a bright orange jacket with reflective stripes.

The group said in its statement: "The bulldozer continued to advance so that she was pulled under the pile of dirt and rubble. After she had disappeared from view the driver kept advancing until the bulldozer was completely on top of her."

Protesters have stopped bulldozers in the past by sitting down in front of them, Smith said. Corrie did this Sunday, but this time the driver did not stop, Smith said.

Which is it? Did she sit down and not get up in time? Did she climb up on the moving dirt in front of the blade? Did she ever get above the blade so that the driver could actually see that she hadn't moved out of his way? There is no such thing as an "informed" opinion on this issue. The eyewitnesses can't even agree on what happened.

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by dawgfan
I have no idea what goes on there eh? And you do?

I admit, I've never been to that part of the world. I don't know personally anyone from that part of the world. I do however have some knowledge of what goes on there through various media reports.
I never claimed to know everything that goes on there, but I know a lot. I know hundreds of people who live there, and thousands who have visited. I've spoken with people who have lived their for a good portion of their life. I know families who've had various members killed by Palestinian terrorists. I am friends with and have spoken to several people who have gone to the White House to speak with various presidents regarding Israel and the whole Palestinian issue. So yeah, I'd say I know a lot more about that region than you do.

Tarkus

[wignifty]

Good to see some things never change...

[Buddy Grant]

Originally posted by Aylmar
Yahoo news does have a good set of photos on the incident, but it gets us no closer to being "informed" about what really happened. (snip)
Take another look at the photo's Aylmar. They are clear - it is in the middle of the freaking day. I think what people are debating here is not whether it was an accident or an intentional killing (it was probably an accident but hey) as much as whether it is okay to kill protestors period. Most here don't seem to mind this too much and in fact some applaud it - that should not surprise anyone here either. Personally I don't see a lot of difference between this and the episode many years ago in Tenemen Square when the guy stepped in front of a Chinese Army tank except that the guy was not run over. A hero to some, an idiot to others.

For the benefit of my hawkish buddies:
Buddy: "What do you call it when a bulldozer crushes a protestor to death?"
One of Buddy's FOFC Circle Jerkers: "A good start."

[couriers]

Originally posted by Tarkus
I never claimed to know everything that goes on there, but I know a lot. I know hundreds of people who live there, and thousands who have visited. I've spoken with people who have lived their for a good portion of their life. I know families who've had various members killed by Palestinian terrorists. I am friends with and have spoken to several people who have gone to the White House to speak with various presidents regarding Israel and the whole Palestinian issue. So yeah, I'd say I know a lot more about that region than you do.

Tarkus

Considering some of the past conversations that I have had with you Tarkus I would have to say that I believe you whole-heartedly.

[John Galt]

I'll try one more time - for those of you who don't care about the death of this women.

Originally posted by John Galt
I noticed no one answered my argument that she is no different than an American volunteer soldier. Aren't they putting themselves in harms way for what they believe? Should we just say they deserve what they got?

[Tarkus]

Not sure what you mean by a volunteer soldier, but if you mean a regular soldier I would disagree. In one case you are where you are because it's your job in support of your country's position. In the other it's because you feel you need to interfere with someone else's job. With that being said there's no way I feel the woman deserved to die. All I've said is that when you put yourself in that situation you assume certain risks. If you're not willing to accept those risks and the possible consequences you shouldn't be there.

Tarkus

[dawgfan]

Congratulations, you know more about the region than I do. It still doesn't change my point: if this is such a dangerous region, a 'war zone' in fact, then why are western protesters allowed to interfere with the actions of the Israeli Army? Why aren't they barred, or at the least forcibly removed when interfering with such activities as bulldozing property, thus removing the possibility of just such an unfortunate incident, not to mention speeding up their mission?

Could it be that your interactions with those who've had family members killed by Palestinian terrorists has clouded your ability to make an unbiased judgement of Israeli actions? Have you spent any time talking with family members of Palestinians killed by Israeli soldiers?

[wignifty]

Let this be the definitive post on this subject:

I am not at all sorry to hear that this woman died. I feel badly for her family, who have to live on their lives without their sister/daughter/cousin/etc.. but to say that this woman shouldn't have died is incredibly naive. Let's examine that statement..

This young woman knew full well that she was putting her life in danger by standing in front of a bulldozer intent on steamrolling some houses. If simply standing in front of a force you oppose assured your personal safety, then the act itself loses meaning. People CHOOSE to put their lives at risk in order to defend their opinions. If merely standing in front of a tank prevent a war, then wouldn't more Americans volunteer to stand in front of tanks as they rushed Bahgdad? Obviously, not, and that's because when you put your life at risk, you acknowledge the fact that the dice may not fall in your favor--the cards may not fall into your hands--the chicken bones may not fall into the proper shape--and your life may be forfeit.

The term "risking your life" does have meaning, and in today's world I'm sure that this young American woman didn't understand the stakes...but she made the bet, and unfortunately she lost.

Such is the case with this young, albeit beautiful woman.

Do we blame the dealer who shuffled the cards and dealt her her fate, or do we blame the woman who impulsively shoved every chip she owned into the path of the rolling dice and merely crossed her fingers?

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by dawgfan


Could it be that your interactions with those who've had family members killed by Palestinian terrorists has clouded your ability to make an unbiased judgement of Israeli actions? Have you spent any time talking with family members of Palestinians killed by Israeli soldiers?

Ding ding ding ding!!!

[Vaj]

The unevolved are doling out Darwin Award nominations. Now I've seen everything...

[astralhaze]

No joke here, I'm serious, suck a tailpipe, put a gun in your mouth, kill yourselves, kill yourselves, kill yourselves now.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by astralhaze
suck a tailpipe

Wont that burn one's lips?

[stkelly52]

Originally posted by dawgfan
Congratulations, you know more about the region than I do. It still doesn't change my point: if this is such a dangerous region, a 'war zone' in fact, then why are western protesters allowed to interfere with the actions of the Israeli Army? Why aren't they barred, or at the least forcibly removed when interfering with such activities as bulldozing property, thus removing the possibility of just such an unfortunate incident, not to mention speeding up their mission?


perhaps they were doing more important things like protecting Israelis from other Palistinian terrorists. If the military spent all it's time chasing around peace protestors they would never be able to do thier job of protecting Israel from the Palistinian terorrists.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by John Galt
I'll try one more time - for those of you who don't care about the death of this women. Take the hint, John. You can quote yourself as many times as you want. Nobody's answering because it's a bad analogy, doesn't relate to the discussion and is only meant to inflame the argument. Even on this topic, most people still don't like to feed the trolls.

[John Galt]

Take the hint, John. You can quote yourself as many times as you want. Nobody's answering because it's a bad analogy, doesn't relate to the discussion and is only meant to inflame the argument. Even on this topic, most people still don't like to feed the trolls.

There is nothing about my post that is "troll"-like. People can say many things about me on this board, but being a "troll" is not one of them. If you really believe it is a bad analogy than say why. Dismissing an argument without reason is bad form, very bad form.

I'll expand my analogy and answer Tarkus's argument above:

Protestor goes to Palestine (a place some here have termed a war zone). She knows she at risk from stray bullets and other dangers, but he is fighting for a cause she believes in. She doesn't suspect an Israeli bulldozer will be her undoing, but soon discovers one heading right for her. She tries to move, but is rolled over.

A man in the U.S. volunteers for the Army. He is sent to Iraq (a place that everyone will agree is a war zone). He knows he is at risk from stray bullets and other dangers, but he is fighting for a cause he believes in (not because it is his job). He doesn't see it coming, but he is killed by an Iraqi landmine.

Several people here seem to see the tragedy in the 2nd case, but not the first. I don't see any difference and see sadness in both scenarios. Unlike some people on this board, I'm sad to see any American soldier die, including those fighting for peace instead of war.

[Fritz]

Her are a key difference John:

A soldier is fighting on our behalf. The girl was there for her own purposes.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by Fritz
Her are a key difference John:

A soldier is fighting on our behalf. The girl was there for her own purposes.

I think that is a tad presumptuous and probably incorrect. When I protest the war, I don't do so for my own purposes. I do so, for the people of America and the people of the world. I expect this girl, who was willing to risk her life was doing what she was believed was right for everyone.

When the soldiers massacred villagers in My Lai, they were "fighting on our behalf," but I think their actions were immoral and wrong. You may think the same of this woman, but that does not change that she probably very well "acting" on your behalf.

All that I'm asking is that she receive the respect her and her family deserves. They lost a very brave daughter who was trying to save the world.

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by dawgfan
Congratulations, you know more about the region than I do. It still doesn't change my point: if this is such a dangerous region, a 'war zone' in fact, then why are western protesters allowed to interfere with the actions of the Israeli Army? Why aren't they barred, or at the least forcibly removed when interfering with such activities as bulldozing property, thus removing the possibility of just such an unfortunate incident, not to mention speeding up their mission?

Could it be that your interactions with those who've had family members killed by Palestinian terrorists has clouded your ability to make an unbiased judgement of Israeli actions? Have you spent any time talking with family members of Palestinians killed by Israeli soldiers?
I've got another question. If this is a "war zone" what the hell are protestors doing there in the first place? If you're going to walk into a "war zone" you've got to know you take the chance of being a casualty. And let's see, instead of trying to weed out terrorists let's spend our time running around risking our lives to root out protestors. :rolleyes:

Also, at least in this case, where have I made unbiased judgements of Israeli actions? In fact if you look at my posts on this subject I said that if the person driving the bulldozer intentionally killed the woman he should be tried for murder and punished to the fullest extent of the law. How is that biased? The part with which you took umbrage was my statement that you can't make an indictment at this point because you don't know what actually happened. How is that biased?

And no I haven't spoken with families of Palestinians killed by Israelis, but I can tell you if not for homicide bombers and the fact that Palestinian militants hide behind innocents they would be few are far between.

Tarkus

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by John Galt
When I protest the war, I don't do so for my own purposes. I do so, for the people of America and the people of the world.
Now that's a presumptuous statement. :rolleyes: You sure as heck aren't doing it for me and millions of other Americans. When a soldier goes to war he's doing it for his country having been sent there by officials freely elected by the majority of the people (well in most cases). There's a huge difference here.

Tarkus

[Fritz]

[Originally posted by John Galt
I think that is a tad presumptuous and probably incorrect. When I protest the war, I don't do so for my own purposes. I do so, for the people of America and the people of the world. I expect this girl, who was willing to risk her life was doing what she was believed was right for everyone.

When the soldiers massacred villagers in My Lai, they were "fighting on our behalf," but I think their actions were immoral and wrong. You may think the same of this woman, but that does not change that she probably very well "acting" on your behalf.

All that I'm asking is that she receive the respect her and her family deserves. They lost a very brave daughter who was trying to save the world.

John,

When you protest, you do so as an idividual to pursue a personal goal. You may be high minded about it, but your actions are your own policy.

I am not sure what My Lai has do with this. What does it?

[John Galt]

Originally posted by Tarkus
Now that's a presumptuous statement. :rolleyes: You sure as heck aren't doing it for me and millions of other Americans. When a soldier goes to war he's doing it for his country having been sent there by officials freely elected by the majority of the people (well in most cases). There's a huge difference here.

You have made my point for me. When I protest I do so for everyone (even those who are for the war). When a soldier fights, he fights for me (even though I am against the war). The fact that 51% (or as you even admit possibly lower) of Americans ordered the soldier to fight for them, doesn't mean he isn't fighting for 100% of us. This woman "fought" for us without an order and without us "electing" her, but that doesn't make her sacrifice any less.

Respect the soldiers of peace as much as the soldiers of war.

When you protest, you do so as an idividual to pursue a personal goal. You may be high minded about it, but your actions are your own policy.

I think I answered this above, but let me add this. A soldier made his choice to join the army for his own purposes (that is why I used a volunteer in the example). That he is then ordered to fight would seem to "lessen" the importance of his sacrifice versus a woman who gave her life with no command. I don't actually believe there is a "lessening" of importance, but I just don't think you can discount this woman because you didn't agree with her.

I am not sure what My Lai has do with this. What does it?

I cite My Lai to give an example of people fighting for me doing things I disagree with. It is an extreme example at that. I think it shows that people may be fighting for you even when you think they are wrong. I think the protestor represents that to you.

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by John Galt
When I protest I do so for everyone (even those who are for the war).
Do me a favor then and stop protesting for me. Thanks. :rolleyes:

Tarkus

[Fritz]

Originally posted by John Galt

I cite My Lai to give an example of people fighting for me doing things I disagree with. It is an extreme example at that. I think it shows that people may be fighting for you even when you think they are wrong. I think the protestor represents that to you.

I think you are demonstrating that you do not know much about My Lai. I don't know a ton about it, but I do know that Lt. Calley was convicted of 22 counts of murder.

This woman "fought" for us without an order and without us "electing" her, but that doesn't make her sacrifice any less.


It certainly does, but I am not going to talk with you on this anymore. It is clear for your posts in this thread and others that you do not love your country nor do you respect those that ensure our freedoms.

[Craptacular]

Aww, I missed out on all the good fun while I was gone. I love these types of debate on this board. I'm sad to see this happen, but she's no hero to me.

[Bonegavel]

She believed in what she was doing and knew it was dangerous. By so knowning, she understood that death was the "worse case" scenario of her actions.

One thing that is interesting, is that she is willing to go to another country and protest land-rights, yet her own government does this to US citizens all the time. Eminent domain, or some such. Why didn't she stand in front of the government official who was about to sign a land-grab document? Anyway, back to the point.

She knew that one of outcomes of her actions was "squashed by bulldozer." That didn't stop her. Very admirable. Her family should be glad that their daughter (or whatever) believed in something enough to give her life for the cause. Not happy for the death, but that they instilled the notion to "stand up, no matter what, for what you believe."

Now. On the other hand, the Israelis obviously feel very strongly in what they are doing, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. Why is it ok for her to stop them from what they believe? Or, should they have anti-protestor protestors? Human-shield shields.

All those that believe we have no reason to be in Iraq or wherever, also sit there an applaud this woman. Why don't you feel she has no reason to be involving herself with Isreali policy? Shouldn't this have been left up to the UN? You say we have no right taking out Sadaam, but you think it is ok for your people to nose their way into everything and that is ok. If your answer is because her way is peaceful, think again. If death is a possibility, then that isn't considered peaceful.

Imagine now, this bulldozer guy has to live the rest of his life knowing he crushed a woman to death. I think this was very selfish of her. And by the way, the bulldozers used there are encased in bullet-proof glass and between that and the noise of the machine, there probably wasn't much chance of this guy hearing squat.