Overrated or Underrated: Bud Selig

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

Has overseen record growth in attendance and TV revenue.

Also, he created the wild card and new playoff format which has been incredibly successful.

Furthermore, he seems to have taken care of faster games and a more reasonable strike zone which were real problems in the early 90s.

Interleague seems to be a mixed bag as if you don't live in Chicago or New York it doesn't really seem to make a big difference.

On the downside, he totally overlooked the steroid scandal despite obvious indicators that something was going on. Also, presided over the first missed world series since 1904 and brought back the same economic model after the strike. Also, he totally botched the All-star game and encourages the good ol boy network which is to say there is no real reason that Mark Cuban can't be an owner (although as a white sox fan I do not mind in the least)

I am not sure how to rate him. Baseball is certainly better off with the changes he made, but his negligence regarding steroids and the 1994 strike are two huge black marks against him.

[Axxon]

I went over rated because I lost interest in baseball during the 1994 strike and to this day I'm struggling to get back into it.

[JediKooter]

I voted over rated. I can't stand Interleague play and wish it would go away.

[Young Drachma]

3-divisions and the wild card were ushered in before he took office. The strike just made it wait a year to happen.

The money baseball has made is solely because of 1) their massive inventory of games and 2) the internet. Selig is a genius in the way the President is, that is to say, not at all.

He's been worse for baseball than any commissioner ever. Implementing the ideas of the smart people around you is a good trait, sure. But he's an owner, he's not independent and orchestrated the death of a franchise because it suited the purposes of his buddies.

[path12]

I can never forgive Bud Selig for stealing the Seattle Pilots to Milwaukee when I was 8.

[Buccaneer]

He's been worse for baseball than any commissioner ever.

While I agree with this intent, you have to know your baseball history to make a statement like that (which is probably wrong, when put up against Kuhn). Selig is just a used-car huckster masquerading as the owner's cocksucker.

[lordscarlet]

I can never forgive Bud Selig for stealing the Seattle Pilots to Milwaukee when I was 8.

Or denying Washington a team for years and then allowing Peter Angelos to completely rape the Washington franchise once he allowed us to obtain a team.

[path12]

Or denying Washington a team for years and then allowing Peter Angelos to completely rape the Washington franchise once he allowed us to obtain a team.

I think he's responsible for you not being able to vote either. That bastard.

[lordscarlet]

I think he's responsible for you not being able to vote either. That bastard.

No, thats the rest of you. ;)

[nilodor]

Or denying Washington a team for years and then allowing Peter Angelos to completely rape the Washington franchise once he allowed us to obtain a team.

Or screwing over Montreal by having them split games in Puerto Rico so he could kill the team and move it to Washington. Rot in hell Bud.

[kcchief19]

While I agree with this intent, you have to know your baseball history to make a statement like that (which is probably wrong, when put up against Kuhn). Selig is just a used-car huckster masquerading as the owner's cocksucker.
I don't know ... most of Kuhn's biggest problems were not of his own making. When Kuhn turned baseball over to Uberroth, at least baseball was still the nation's top spectator sport. I'll admit he did some baffling things in dealing with Finley and Steinbrenner, but then those two were pieces of work that Selig never would have stood up to.

Kuhn had not control over the '81 strike. Miller and Fehr were bound and determined to screw the owners with their pants on no matter what, whereas in '94 Selig basically told Fehr to bring it on. At a time when the NFL was putting together it's salary cap model and building a plan that would lead to astronomical revenue growth for all teams and help football finally pass baseball as America's top sport, Selig shutdown the league and stood up for a plan that was bound to fail and leave us where we are today.

I almost have to go with he's rated right because everyone I know thinks Selig is a cocksucker and he is.

[MrBug708]

Selig's term will end just about when Bush is ready to get back into a job

[RedKingGold]

Underrated.

He gets a lot of flack for the steroid scandal and the 94' strike.

In retrospect, however, the way he handled the steroid scandal was genius. Pushing the Mitchell Report was huge as it shone the spotlight away from the owners (whom IMO it should really be on) and to the individual players.

Brilliant move that not many people recognize.

[Jas_lov]

Most underrated commissioner in sports history.

[st.cronin]

Most underrated commissioner in sports history.

+1

[ISiddiqui]

Most underrated commissioner in sports history.

+2

People are used to hating on him so much... he's incredibly underrated.

[DeToxRox]

He's better then Bettman and Stern.

[ISiddiqui]

Underrated.

He gets a lot of flack for the steroid scandal and the 94' strike.

In retrospect, however, the way he handled the steroid scandal was genius. Pushing the Mitchell Report was huge as it shone the spotlight away from the owners (whom IMO it should really be on) and to the individual players.

Brilliant move that not many people recognize.

Indeed... and now baseball has the most stringent steroid policy in professional sports. Couldn't have done it the regular way (challenging the union.. which has shown they are willing to lose a season over it) without incredibly massive damage, so he had someone like George Mitchell come in, name a ton of names and the Players Union HAD to accept strong limits, even stronger than originally when the Bonds story burst forth.

[sterlingice]

I don't get how he can be overrated. At best, he's viewed as a bumbling fool who couldn't find his rear end with two hands and a flashlight, at worst, he's Nero. How can that be overrated?

SI

[Neon_Chaos]

2002 Baseball All Star Game, broadcast live throughout the Philippines and most other Asian countries. Baseball was on the rise here and we were all abuzz about what the game is about with all the greatest players and awards and stuff... so, we get the AS game broadcast, it was a great game.. And they call the game a draw. WTF!? Thank you for ending any chance of the MLB entering the international market other than Japan.

Fail.

[Swaggs]

I'd go with "Underrated! Get Rid of Him!"

I think baseball has lost a ton of fans and, worse yet, failed to really cultivate the next generation of fans during Selig's tenure. In addition, the disparity between the haves and the have-nots has grown so much, that the level of competition is almost laughable at times. And then, you have the steroids.

However, all of those "warts" are out there and apparent, but the franchises themselves have never been more profitable.

I'd love to see him kicked to the curb, but his approval rating is so low that I think he is actually a bit underrated.

[Groundhog]

Until I read this thread I didn't know who Bud Selig was. Guess that makes him underrated to me?

[rowech]

1. No commisioner can be a former owner and be expected to be good for the game. He can be expected to be good for owners and rarely do those two things go hand-in-hand.

2. The steroids are the second biggest scandal in the history of baseball and very likely, in many years, could be considered the biggest. This one happened on his watch and because the owners were making money, and he was one of the boys, he didn't care enough to step in and do something. Any right-minded person knew that something wasn't right.

3. Interleague play is losing its luster. In addition, interleague play DESTROYED the all-star game. At one time that game was a way to see AL versus NL before the world series. Now it's just an exhibition. The home field advantage being based on it makes it even worse.

4. Games aren't any shorter than they have been and nor will they be because of advertisements. I would like to see the time between innings cut down dramatically and ads run during the game somehow. In addition, intentional walks should automatically be done. It's a waste of time to see a passed ball or wild pitch the 1 out of 10,000 times it happens. Only three pick-offs or bluffed pick-offs on a runner. There are several other ways to speed up the game but those three are easy.

5. Soon, he will make the games longer by adding replay. I hate replay in all sports except in scoring situations. It is my opinion that overall, replay makes officials extremely lazy as they will always go to the tape if need be. Baseball could become simply awful. It will start with homeruns, then it will go to plays at the plate, then it will go to other situations, etc.

6. Young people hate baseball. They like playing it but they can't stand to watch it. Almost all of my students, even those who play it, say they can't stand to watch it. That is a long-term problem that is going to damage all of this "glory" he wants to claim. There is not a new generation of fans coming up that are dedicated to baseball as so many of us might be.

I think Bud has been awesome for owners, so-so for players, crap for fans, and shit for the long term future of baseball. Of course, it's all about $$$ so he's been golden.

[ISiddiqui]

I think if Selig adds replay, in the future MLB fans will look back and wonder why people hated Selig so much. In addition to replay, he will have added the Wild Card (which I've come around to), and revenue sharing. I think people will realize that NO commissioner would have been able to get the Players' Union to bend on steroid testing until it came out in the press. So, I think Selig played the situation beautifully. One of the few times the owners have beaten the players in recent memory.

Young people hate baseball. They like playing it but they can't stand to watch it.

They think its boring. This isn't exactly a problem a Commissioner can solve. The game is just seen as too slow for a lot of youth and they've grown up with the NBA and NFL as fast action sports and that's where all the coolness is at. I think it was only a matter of time before this happened.

[RedKingGold]

I hate to say it, but I think most people are missing the point. The commissoner's real job (in any sport) is really not to do what is best for the game, but to do what is best for the owners. Changes made to better the game are actually done to benefit owner's wallets. That is just the nature of professional sports.

Based on that aspect, I don't really blame Bud for some of the current things said about his tenure. He gets much flack for the '94 strike, but Selig become commissioner at a time where the union already had more power than any other union in sports. Further, you can debate the merits of interleague play all you like, but even if it did not improve the sport of Baseball, interleague play still generates buzz, ratings, and interest when it comes around every year. And (as mentioned earlier), Selig found a good way to combat the union's power with his handling of the steroid scandal.

Also, people do not take into account that MLB might have the most "diversified" ownership of any major league support. There's a wide difference between Steinbrenner and every other team in the league. There was no "League Think" that has existed in the NFL, nor anonymity of NBA owners (see if you can name ten NBA owners, then try and name ten MLB owners). Yet, under Selig's watch (whether attributed to or not to him), a system has arisen where there is more parity in baseball than at any other time in it's history. A few PR blunders aside (the tied All-Star Game comes to mind), Selig has done a really good job in his tenure.

[lordscarlet]

Or screwing over Montreal by having them split games in Puerto Rico so he could kill the team and move it to Washington. Rot in hell Bud.

Not to mention how they gave away all of Montreal/Washington's best players for peanuts.

[albionmoonlight]

I said underrated. I don't think that he is a good commish, but I think that he has a reputation as a horrible commish. And there is a difference between not good and horrible.

[TroyF]

1) Interlegue play is still liked by most baseball fans. I'm ambivilant most of the time, but I do admit to watching more early in the season when they have a round of interleague play.

2) The All Star game was not his fault. Somewhere along the line, the all star game meant getting everyone an inning pitched, everyone an at bat and even the ball boys time in the field. The pitchers were used up. It was as simple as that. Then it became a NO WIN situation for him. Let's say he allows the managers to bring back a pitcher who had thrown and he suffers a major injury. The sad thing about it is that the All Star game of 2002 was an amazing game. Bonds hit a monumental blast, Hunter robbed him of another homer, the AL came back, etc. It was an unfortunate ending, but it wasn't near the deal people made it out to be when it happened and it's ridiculous to be bringing it up now.

3) He handled the contraction situation and Expos situation horribly.

4) He handled the steroids situation horribly, as did the rest of baseball. He regained his momentum by putting the players in the spotlight at the end. It worked and baseball now has a far better drug testing policy.

5) The game is in great shape again. Small market teams are spending more money. (some of it thanks to the revenue sharing) Really, at the end of the day, that's the thing that matters. I still have a lot of problems with how the game is managed, but. . .

I voted for underrated. Not because I think he's the best commish ever. But because he's considered by some to have horns and a pitchfork and be the next anti christ. Reality shows that he's been decent. Not unbelievable, no horrible, but clearly ok. That makes my vote easy.

[TwinCitiesFan]

1. No commisioner can be a former owner and be expected to be good for the game. He can be expected to be good for owners and rarely do those two things go hand-in-hand.

2. The steroids are the second biggest scandal in the history of baseball and very likely, in many years, could be considered the biggest. This one happened on his watch and because the owners were making money, and he was one of the boys, he didn't care enough to step in and do something. Any right-minded person knew that something wasn't right.

3. Interleague play is losing its luster. In addition, interleague play DESTROYED the all-star game. At one time that game was a way to see AL versus NL before the world series. Now it's just an exhibition. The home field advantage being based on it makes it even worse.

4. Games aren't any shorter than they have been and nor will they be because of advertisements. I would like to see the time between innings cut down dramatically and ads run during the game somehow. In addition, intentional walks should automatically be done. It's a waste of time to see a passed ball or wild pitch the 1 out of 10,000 times it happens. Only three pick-offs or bluffed pick-offs on a runner. There are several other ways to speed up the game but those three are easy.

5. Soon, he will make the games longer by adding replay. I hate replay in all sports except in scoring situations. It is my opinion that overall, replay makes officials extremely lazy as they will always go to the tape if need be. Baseball could become simply awful. It will start with homeruns, then it will go to plays at the plate, then it will go to other situations, etc.

6. Young people hate baseball. They like playing it but they can't stand to watch it. Almost all of my students, even those who play it, say they can't stand to watch it. That is a long-term problem that is going to damage all of this "glory" he wants to claim. There is not a new generation of fans coming up that are dedicated to baseball as so many of us might be.

I think Bud has been awesome for owners, so-so for players, crap for fans, and shit for the long term future of baseball. Of course, it's all about $$$ so he's been golden.


Out of all the posts I agree with this one the most, Selig is a bumbling idiot who has no clue what real fans are like and has never put the integrity of baseball ahead of his decisions (or sometimes lack of decisions).

:D

[MikeVic]

Whether it's fair or not I don't know, but I blame the Expos thing on him. That could have been a World Series. Yes I'm still hanging on that. So I had to vote overrated since he still has a job more than ten years later.

[lungs]

I will never have bad words for Mr. Selig as he brought baseball back to Wisconsin. The Seligs did hold onto the Brewers for too long, though.

I also think he's done a fine job as commissioner. People complain about competitve balance, but I feel that it's as good as it has ever been in the game. Kids may think baseball is boring these days but the game will still attract top level talent due to the fact that it pretty much blows every other American sport out of the water for potential lifetime earnings for an athlete.

It seems to me that a lot of people that complain about Selig want to keep the game in the 1920s or institute some NFL style system that is completely unrealistic for baseball.

[molson]

1) Interlegue play is still liked by most baseball fans. I'm ambivilant most of the time, but I do admit to watching more early in the season when they have a round of interleague play.

2) The All Star game was not his fault. Somewhere along the line, the all star game meant getting everyone an inning pitched, everyone an at bat and even the ball boys time in the field. The pitchers were used up. It was as simple as that. Then it became a NO WIN situation for him. Let's say he allows the managers to bring back a pitcher who had thrown and he suffers a major injury. The sad thing about it is that the All Star game of 2002 was an amazing game. Bonds hit a monumental blast, Hunter robbed him of another homer, the AL came back, etc. It was an unfortunate ending, but it wasn't near the deal people made it out to be when it happened and it's ridiculous to be bringing it up now.

3) He handled the contraction situation and Expos situation horribly.

4) He handled the steroids situation horribly, as did the rest of baseball. He regained his momentum by putting the players in the spotlight at the end. It worked and baseball now has a far better drug testing policy.

5) The game is in great shape again. Small market teams are spending more money. (some of it thanks to the revenue sharing) Really, at the end of the day, that's the thing that matters. I still have a lot of problems with how the game is managed, but. . .

I voted for underrated. Not because I think he's the best commish ever. But because he's considered by some to have horns and a pitchfork and be the next anti christ. Reality shows that he's been decent. Not unbelievable, no horrible, but clearly ok. That makes my vote easy.

Wow, I agree with every single one of those.

The All-Star game thing has always been blown way out of proportion. Everyone always complains about what a joke the game is, and then they pick this one year to pretend it's some kind of real competition so they can slam Selig. I don't see the problem with a tie game. Maybe he could have foreseen this situation and said ahead of time that any AS game ends after 12 innings if still tied. This would give the managers a little more guidance in managing the rosters, and there would be no surprises. There's no reason for an AS game to go 20 innings or whatever just to get a winner.

The MLB union is ridiculous and would have no problem sitting out 2+ seasons to get what they want. For Selig, in that environment, to come up with a way to get something approaching a real drug program, and improving competitive balance is really nothing short of amazing.

Interleague Play has been a huge success by any measure - the perfect compromise was limiting it to a handful of weekends. You get the big attendence and ratings boosts, and it doesn't "pollute" the whole season. Interleague play didn't kill the AS game, which hadn't been a big deal since the 70s. (And even if it did kill it, its an excellent trade-off, revenue and fan-interest wise)

I miss the Expos, but I don't know what could have been done. There was no possibility of a publicly funded stadium, and that's pretty much the standard these days. I loved baseball road trips to Montreal though, it was a unique experience to anything else in MLB.

Edit: Out of nostalgia, I was reading about the Expos on wiki and was reminded of the 2003 fiasco when they weren't allowed to call up any players on September 1st because MLB deemed it too expensive. That was awful, it feels like somethig that would happen in the Federal League in 1914.

[clintl]

Bud Selig over the last few years has been a lot better than early Bud Selig. I think once he decided to address the steroids problem, he did a pretty reasonable job with it, and has largely put the issue to rest.

Early Bud Selig was a catastrophe.

[JediKooter]

I'm with rowech on the All-Star game. Interleague play completely destroyed the All-Star game. I don't want to see the Yankees play the Mets in July, I don't want to see the Giants play the A's, Padres vs. Angels, etc...unless it's October.

Interleague play is a novelty at best and needs be put down like a horse with a broken leg.

[lordscarlet]

Whether it's fair or not I don't know, but I blame the Expos thing on him. That could have been a World Series. Yes I'm still hanging on that. So I had to vote overrated since he still has a job more than ten years later.

Amen.




I miss the Expos, but I don't know what could have been done. There was no possibility of a publicly funded stadium, and that's pretty much the standard these days. I loved baseball road trips to Montreal though, it was a unique experience to anything else in MLB.

Edit: Out of nostalgia, I was reading about the Expos on wiki and was reminded of the 2003 fiasco when they weren't allowed to call up any players on September 1st because MLB deemed it too expensive. That was awful, it feels like somethig that would happen in the Federal League in 1914.

You're also missing all the players shipped out of Montreal at far under value (Pedro, Vlad, etc, etc)

[molson]

Amen.

You're also missing all the players shipped out of Montreal at far under value (Pedro, Vlad, etc, etc)

That's pretty standard stuff for a small-market team.

The callup thing is just horrid on another level, as is the '02 MLB takeover (which of course does make all of player dumpings after that suspect)

[lungs]

Amen.



You're also missing all the players shipped out of Montreal at far under value (Pedro, Vlad, etc, etc)

Vlad was never shipped out. He signed with the Angels as a free agent.

[RomaGoth]

As I stated in the David Stern poll/thread, I would like to see Stern, Selig, and Gary Bettman just go away. Permanently.

[lordscarlet]

Vlad was never shipped out. He signed with the Angels as a free agent.

Sorry, no attempt made to resign him. I was not an Expos fan, so I am not an expert on the subject. I had pretty much stopped watching baseball until Washington finally got a team.

[RomaGoth]

Sorry, no attempt made to resign him. I was not an Expos fan, so I am not an expert on the subject. I had pretty much stopped watching baseball until Washington finally got a team.

Washington has a team?

[lordscarlet]

Washington has a team?

That hurts, man, that hurts. :p

[rowech]

Washington has a team?

Yeah....they have uniforms and everything.

[Young Drachma]

Interleague play, the wild card and such would've happened regardless of Selig. I think he's stifled the game more than he's helped it. But he's made the owners rich and things like giving back to the past players through a variety of homage paying events, as well as the improvements of the draft. I'm fine with that part, though.

[korme]

I've got to disagree that Selig is the worst commish ever.

Fuckin' A. Bartlett Giamatti died only 8 days after banning Pete Rose... because he died so suddenly, no one ever knows if he would have eventually overturned that or what so no one will ever do anything about it and dammit Pete can't even get 14 retired at GABP? For shame, and I'm biased, but it hurts.

[TroyF]

I've got to disagree that Selig is the worst commish ever.

Fuckin' A. Bartlett Giamatti died only 8 days after banning Pete Rose... because he died so suddenly, no one ever knows if he would have eventually overturned that or what so no one will ever do anything about it and dammit Pete can't even get 14 retired at GABP? For shame, and I'm biased, but it hurts.


Those close to Barlett say Pete was never coming back.

[rowech]

Nor should Pete ever come back. It's in every clubhouse throughout the league. It's the one thing that is unacceptable and you read the history of early baseball, it becomes obvious why.

[clintl]

It's time for Pete's apologists to get over it. Pete himself has blown every chance he ever had, and has no one to blame but himself. And that would not have changed if Bart Giamatti had survived.

[fantom1979]

Yeah....they have uniforms and everything.

... and they all make the league minimum

[korme]

It's time for Pete's apologists to get over it. Pete himself has blown every chance he ever had, and has no one to blame but himself. And that would not have changed if Bart Giamatti had survived.

I didn't want this to turn into a Rose argument, but what is the harm in putting his plaque in the HoF, with a big asterik somewhere and a description of why he was banned from baseball after his playing days were over? So everyone could know the horrible deed he did, but still give the Hit King the honor of being enshrined... remember, whether he gambled while playing or not, he was only ever caught doing it while managing... That's a can of worms in itself, but it's still something to chew on.

[Axxon]

That's a can of worms in itself, but it's still something to chew on.

That sounds so gross.

[rowech]

... and they all make the league minimum

At least someone got it!

[rowech]

I didn't want this to turn into a Rose argument, but what is the harm in putting his plaque in the HoF, with a big asterik somewhere and a description of why he was banned from baseball after his playing days were over? So everyone could know the horrible deed he did, but still give the Hit King the honor of being enshrined... remember, whether he gambled while playing or not, he was only ever caught doing it while managing... That's a can of worms in itself, but it's still something to chew on.

(d) BETTING ON BALL GAMES. Any player, umpire, or club official or
employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in
connection with which the bettor has no duty to perform shall be declared
ineligible for one year.

Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall
bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which
the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible.

[korme]

Thank you for that bit of education. :rolleyes:

[rowech]

Thank you for that bit of education. :rolleyes:

It is posted in every major league clubhouse so the players see it every day. They know. He knew. He made his choice and he deserves to be out for good.

[ISiddiqui]

It's a stupid ass rule though. There is no reason Joe Jackson should be able to be voted on for the Hall of Fame. None. And AFAIC, it isn't a valid Hall of Fame as a result.

[molson]

I wonder if the Rose supporters think that Tim Donaghy should be reinstated as an NBA referee.

You can sugarcoat it all you want - but Rose rigged games, there's way around it.

He lied for 15 years and in now trying to tell us he bet the Reds to win every single game. Bullshit.

[korme]

You really think he bet on the Reds to lose? I don't believe that, he lived and breathed Cincinnati, still does.

The comparison to Tim Donaghe is simply asinine.

[molson]

You really think he bet on the Reds to lose? I don't believe that, he lived and breathed Cincinnati, still does.

The comparison to Tim Donaghe is simply asinine.

I personally believe that he bet to lose, but that's mostly a gut feeling based from reading the Dowd report and what we know about Rose's (horrible) character.

But there's NO way he bet them to win every single game of his managerial career, as he now claims (after lying about it for 15 years). There were games he didn't bet, and those games were just clearly not on the level.

And never forget that he voluntarily agreed to the ban in exchange for no formal findings being made on the investigation. He had more to hide. Maybe he figured he's be reinstated someday, but he really had no reason to assume that. I don't think Giamatti was a "wink wink" deal kind of guy.

He's worse than Donaghy. Cincinnati's a great baseball city and he robbed them of one of their greatest icons. At the very least, he caused this suspicion, this speculation that tarnishes his entire legacy, and that kind of sucks for the fans who rooted for him for so long. It makes me kind of sad to see them still stick up for him, after all he's done to them. It goes beyond the gambling - Cincinnati deserved more.

[st.cronin]

There are still Pete Rose apologists? Wow.

[rowech]

When Pete didn't bet on the Reds, that was Pete betting on the Reds to lose.

[Mike1409]

There are still Pete Rose apologists? Wow.

Not an apologist. But the all time hit leader should be in the hall of fame. I am not saying he should be alowed to coach or manage again, but his stats still count.

[molson]

The Rose thing is a big plus for Selig. There's a good chance that he knows a lot that we don't.

I think it's as least as likely as not that Rose threw a few bucks the other way when he knew his #4 starter didn't have it that night. I don't know why so many people give him the benefit of the doubt on the "he only bet to win" thing as if it's a proven truth.

[st.cronin]

Not an apologist. But the all time hit leader should be in the hall of fame. I am not saying he should be alowed to coach or manage again, but his stats still count.

Of course his stats count, and they are in all the encyclopedias. I think the Hall of Fame is a giant joke, so I don't really care either way. But your sentence ultimately means "Pete Rose deserves to be honored." You can phrase it however you want, but arguing that he should be in the hall of fame, or arguing that his number should be retired, those are ultimately arguments that Pete Rose should be honored.

[molson]

Not an apologist. But the all time hit leader should be in the hall of fame. I am not saying he should be alowed to coach or manage again, but his stats still count.

At this point, I don't think he gets voted in even if Selig made him eligible.

[rowech]

The all-time homerun king won't be there either and very likely the all-time strikeout leader. (although I think he probably makes it before Rose and Bonds if any of them make it)

"5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

Not saying it's been applied correctly all the time, as there are plenty of guys who should be excluded because of this clause, but Rose should NEVER be allowed in.

[molson]

The all-time homerun king won't be there either and very likely the all-time strikeout leader. (although I think he probably makes it before Rose and Bonds if any of them make it)

"5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

Not saying it's been applied correctly all the time, as there are plenty of guys who should be excluded because of this clause, but Rose should NEVER be allowed in.

Are there any felons in the HOF? I can't think of any.

Rose probably avoided a second felony by agreeing to that lifetime ban.

[rowech]

Are there any felons in the HOF? I can't think of any.

Rose probably avoided a second felony by agreeing to that lifetime ban.

Not sure.....I'm guessing somewhere along the way there are. Cobb should have been if he wasn't.

[molson]

Not sure.....I'm guessing somewhere along the way there are. Cobb should have been if he wasn't.

It's hard to understand why they even needed prisons back then if beating up cripled fans in the stands was fair game.