Football Officiating - Career Progression

[Dr. Sak]

I decided to start a little question of the day (or few times a week) where I ask a question pertaining to NFHS High School Football Rules and those on the board can chime in with their answers.

This will also help me keep sharp with the rules since the season is quickly approaching. Here is a key to some of the shortcuts I will use.

EZ = End Zone, FC = Fair Catch, FG = Field Goal, GL = Goal Line, KO = Kick Off, LOS = Line of Scrimmage, NZ = Neutral Zone, PSK = Post scrimmage Kick (Punt), OB = Out Of Bounds, TD = Touchdown, YD = Yardline, TO = Time out.

The letter [A] will represent the offense, [B] will represent the defense, [K] is the kicking team, [R] is the receiving team.

[Dr. Sak]

Today's question...

It is 3rd and 20 on A's 4 where A1 fumbles. The ball is motionless on the 3 yard line when B2 tries to recover it, but instead he muffs it into A's EZ,. The ball is recovered there by A9 who begins to advance. B4 tackles A9 by the facemask in the EZ.

The final result of the play is __________. B's foul is enforced from the basic spot which is ________yard line. Where will the ball finally be placed?

[Suburban Rhythm]

we answering here, or in a PM?

[Dr. Sak]

You can just answer here.

[Suburban Rhythm]

I'll say

-Result of the play Touchback. Fall fumbled into the EZ and recovered there.

-Original spot is 20 yard line due to touchback.
-Final spot is the 35 yard line once 15 yard facemask penalty is added.

[albionmoonlight]

Result of the play is a safety, so the offense will accept the penalty.

The basic spot is the four.

The ball will finally be placed on the 19.

[Passacaglia]

I'll say:
Safety
Zero
5 or 15

[stevew]

3R, bf, fi

[BrianD]

Result of the play is a safety, so the offense will accept the penalty.

The basic spot is the four.

The ball will finally be placed on the 19.

This matches what I thought.

[digamma]

Result of the play is a safety, so the offense will accept the penalty.

The basic spot is the four.

The ball will finally be placed on the 19.

This is what I was thinking, with the assumption that it is a personal foul face mask rather than a five yard face mask.

I believe penalties against the defense that occur behind the LOS are enforced from the LOS.

[Dr. Sak]

I'll give the answer around lunchtime (as well as why that answer is correct) and ask another after lunch. The correct answer has been given, but which one is it??

[Celeval]

I'm going to go with dead ball when it comes to rest at the 3-yard line. A retains possession, foul is after the play and enforced from the 3, 4th and 6 at the 18 yard line.

[Celeval]

Well, I guess not. :-D

[albionmoonlight]

BTW, this feature is an awesome idea, Dr. Sak.

I can't be the only person here who, in the 80s, looked forward to the "IBM Presents: You Make the Call" commercials as much as the actual MNF games.

At least, I hope that I'm not. FOFC is not one of those places where you want to end up being on the geeky side of the bell curve.

[Passacaglia]

No worries, albion -- I dug that, too.

[Surtt]

I agree with Passacaglia.

I think the face mask is enforced at the spot of the foul; or in this case at the goal line.

[BrianD]

For future reference, does the NFHS make their rule book available online anywhere? I keep toying with the idea of becoming certified to do high school football games, but I would really need to study up first.

[Dr. Sak]

A little hint...some of you are overlooking what "force" put that ball into the endzone.

[st.cronin]

I think albion got it right.

[Dr. Sak]

For future reference, does the NFHS make their rule book available online anywhere? I keep toying with the idea of becoming certified to do high school football games, but I would really need to study up first.

http://www.nfhs.org/web/2006/08/football.aspx

That's not the rule book but if you go to your state officiating site you can apply for a small fee to take the test and be sent the rule book. I just got my 2008 copy last night at my rules interpretation meeting.

[Poli]

I'll say

-Result of the play Touchback. Fall fumbled into the EZ and recovered there.

-Original spot is 20 yard line due to touchback.
-Final spot is the 35 yard line once 15 yard facemask penalty is added.
I'm agree.

[Dr. Sak]

Question: It is 3rd and 20 on A's 4 where A1 fumbles. The ball is motionless on the 3 yard line when B2 tries to recover it, but instead he muffs it into A's EZ,. The ball is recovered there by A9 who begins to advance. B4 tackles A9 by the facemask in the EZ.

The final result of the play is __________. B's foul is enforced from the basic spot which is ________yard line. Where will the ball finally be placed?

Answer: The force that put the ball on the 3 yard line was A fumbling the ball, but it was B's attempt to pick up the ball and being muffed is the force that put the ball into the endzone. Therefore, it is not a safety, it is a touchback.

The penalty on the play was an unsportmanlike facemask which is a 15 yard penalty as most of you know, but with this penalty it is enforced from the succeeding spot. In this case the basic spot for this foul is the succeeding spot, or the 20 yardline after the touchback.

The ball will be placed on A's 35 where A will have it 1st and 10.

Suburban Rhythm and Poli got it correct.

[Commo_Soldier]

I'll say:
Safety
Zero
5 or 15


I would agree with this. Since the player tried to gain yardage off of the play I do not believe it would result in a touchback. Then since he tackled him by his facemask it would be a 15 yard automatic first down penalty taken from the spot which is the GL so it would be spotted at the 15 yard-line.

[larrymcg421]

I would agree with this. Since the player tried to gain yardage off of the play I do not believe it would result in a touchback. Then since he tackled him by his facemask it would be a 15 yard automatic first down penalty taken from the spot which is the GL so it would be spotted at the 15 yard-line.

It doesn't matter if you attempt to gain yardage as long as you don't leave the end zone.

[albionmoonlight]

My mistake was thinking that the attempt to leave the endzone turned a possible touchback into a safety.

Dr. Sak, what would have happened had there been no facemask? It would have been a touchback, but what would the down and distance have been?

[Dr. Sak]

Next question:

Question: B2 intercepts A1's pass in B's endzone and begins to advance. B2 is tackled in the end zone. While B2 is running with the ball, A6 is illegally blocked below the waist by B9 in a) Team B's Endzone or b) on Team B's 4 yard line. The penalty is accepted.

What are the scenarios and where is the ball placed in both a) and b)?

[Dr. Sak]

Dr. Sak, what would have happened had there been no facemask? It would have been a touchback, but what would the down and distance have been?

If no facemask it still would be a touchback with the ball being placed on the 20, 1st and 10 for A.

[jeheinz72]

Defenses ball since the INT happened before the penalty.

I think in either case it's 1st and 10 at B's 10 yard line (with B having the ball)

[digamma]

My mistake was thinking that the attempt to leave the endzone turned a possible touchback into a safety.

Dr. Sak, what would have happened had there been no facemask? It would have been a touchback, but what would the down and distance have been?

In looking back at the question, the key is that the ball was motionless at the 3. The initial "impetus" of the fumble is stopped at that point and the muff gives it new "impetus" and results in the touchback. Motionless is the key word in the question and one that I didn't pick up on in my first reading.

[Fighter of Foo]

Question: It is 3rd and 20 on A's 4 where A1 fumbles. The ball is motionless on the 3 yard line when B2 tries to recover it, but instead he muffs it into A's EZ,. The ball is recovered there by A9 who begins to advance. B4 tackles A9 by the facemask in the EZ.

The final result of the play is __________. B's foul is enforced from the basic spot which is ________yard line. Where will the ball finally be placed?

Answer: The force that put the ball on the 3 yard line was A fumbling the ball, but it was B's attempt to pick up the ball and being muffed is the force that put the ball into the endzone. Therefore, it is not a safety, it is a touchback.

The penalty on the play was an unsportmanlike facemask which is a 15 yard penalty as most of you know, but with this penalty it is enforced from the succeeding spot. In this case the basic spot for this foul is the succeeding spot, or the 20 yardline after the touchback.

The ball will be placed on A's 35 where A will have it 1st and 10.

Suburban Rhythm and Poli got it correct.

Is this different in the NFL?

[Dr. Sak]

I can't vouch for the NFL. But in another year I'll be able to do this for the NCAA :)

[Suburban Rhythm]

Next question:

Question: B2 intercepts A1's pass in B's endzone and begins to advance. B2 is tackled in the end zone. While B2 is running with the ball, A6 is illegally blocked below the waist by B9 in a) Team B's Endzone or b) on Team B's 4 yard line. The penalty is accepted.

What are the scenarios and where is the ball placed in both a) and b)?

A) B's ball on B 10 yard line - Touchback out to the 20, half the distance penalty (I believe the illegal block is a 15 yarder)

B) B's ball on B 2 yard line- B2 still tackled in the EZ, but thinking the call will be, much like on a kick/punt return, a spot foul, and marked off half the distance from the spot of the foul.

[Suburban Rhythm]

BTW, this feature is an awesome idea, Dr. Sak.

I can't be the only person here who, in the 80s, looked forward to the "IBM Presents: You Make the Call" commercials as much as the actual MNF games.

At least, I hope that I'm not. FOFC is not one of those places where you want to end up being on the geeky side of the bell curve.

http://mobhappy.com/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2006/03/referee.jpg

Someone photoshop Dr. Sak's face onto this guy

[Dr. Sak]

http://inthebleachers.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/1020derry-a.jpg

Look in the background.

[albionmoonlight]

Let's see. The play, sans penalty, would be a touchback for the reasons explained above in the first example.

I would say that both penalties would be enforced from the 20 yard line, so it would be first and ten for team B from their own ten in example A and example B.

It seems strange to me that the spot of the foul would matter on an interception return when the play ends up being a touchback.

[larrymcg421]

a) Safety
b) 2 yard line

[Poli]

a) 10 yard line.
b) 2 yard line.

[BrianD]

I believe the first one would spot at the 10 yard line. I don't believe high school has the rule to call a safety on a penalty while the ball is in the end zone. Also, since being tackled in the end zone wouldn't be a safety, a penalty to avoid the tackle shouldn't result in a safety either.

The second one is a bit tougher. With the change of possession, I would put the basic spot at the goal line. Since the foul occurred beyond the basic spot, I think that is where you enforce the penalty. Ball at the 2.

[digamma]

I think 10 yard line is correct for A). I think the basic spot of enforcement for penalties that occur in the end zone after a change of possession (with the new "attacking" team leaving the end zone) is the 20 yard line.

I'm not sure if this changes with B or not.

[Dr. Sak]

Question: B2 intercepts A1's pass in B's endzone and begins to advance. B2 is tackled in the end zone. While B2 is running with the ball, A6 is illegally blocked below the waist by B9 in a) Team B's Endzone or b) on Team B's 4 yard line. The penalty is accepted.

What are the scenarios and where is the ball placed in both a) and b)?


Answer:

Blocking below the waste is a spot foul much like holding. So the basic spot is the location where the illegal block occurred.

a) If there was no penalty and B2 was tackled in the Endzone, it would be a touchback and the ball would be placed on the 20. If you think when A has the ball and A commits a penalty in their own endzone, a safety is called. The same rules apply to B. Since B commited a foul in their own endzone, it is considered a safety. Two points are awarded to A and B has a free kick from the 20.

b) The spot of the foul is B's 4 yard line. B would retain the ball 1st and 10 from their own 2 yard line.

Only one person, larrymcg421, got them both correct.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Curiousity question regarding the answer to part A in question 2-

The way you explain it makes sense-- for example a holding call while passing out of the endzone.

Does ANY penalty committed in the EZ by possessing team while the ball is in the EZ result in a safety?

For arguments sake...QB drops back in to EZ, WR trying to beat press coverage grabs the facemask of the CB who pushes him back into the EZ.

[Dr. Sak]

Yes. The facemask would have to occur clearly in the Endzone. If there is any doubt, the spot of the foul is the 1 yard line.

[Poli]

I'd stab you if you made that call against my team, just so you know.

[Dr. Sak]

It's not my fault your team is dirty!

[digamma]

Question: B2 intercepts A1's pass in B's endzone and begins to advance. B2 is tackled in the end zone. While B2 is running with the ball, A6 is illegally blocked below the waist by B9 in a) Team B's Endzone or b) on Team B's 4 yard line. The penalty is accepted.

What are the scenarios and where is the ball placed in both a) and b)?


Answer:

Blocking below the waste is a spot foul much like holding. So the basic spot is the location where the illegal block occurred.

a) If there was no penalty and B2 was tackled in the Endzone, it would be a touchback and the ball would be placed on the 20. If you think when A has the ball and A commits a penalty in their own endzone, a safety is called. The same rules apply to B. Since B commited a foul in their own endzone, it is considered a safety. Two points are awarded to A and B has a free kick from the 20.

b) The spot of the foul is B's 4 yard line. B would retain the ball 1st and 10 from their own 2 yard line.

Only one person, larrymcg421, got them both correct.


Interesting. I think this rule is different in college--at least for A.

[BrianD]

My track record isn't very good so far. The penalty in the end zone setup was interesting. In most cases, for this to happen, the offense would have to retreat into the end zone such that a tackle would be a safety. If the defense takes possession of the ball in the end zone, it isn't a safety if they get tackled. Making that the result of the penalty seems oddly harsh. Not that the rule isn't written that way, it just seems harsh.

[Dr. Sak]

Okay here are a few more. To make it easy...quote this post and put your answers underneath. I'm actually enjoying doing this...hopefully you all are too. For the true and false ones, if the answer is false can you explain why?

Question #3: At the snap, A is flagged for illegal motion, and B intercepts a legal forward pass and advances. During B's run, B2 clips and A3 grasps btu does not twist B1's facemask. B fumbles and A recovers. What do we have...and don't say a clusterfuck?


Question #4: 1st and goal for A at B's 8. A1 runs for a touchdown, but during the run, A2 is flagged for holding in B's endzone. B accepts the penalty. The next play is ___'s ball, ___down and ___to go at the ___ yard line.


Question #5: True of False: K kicks an onsides kick which does not hit the ground and goes 12 yards. At that point A beats B to the ball and catches it out of the air on B's 48 yardline where A is promptly tackled. It is first and 10 for A at B's 48 yard line.

[Mustang]

Question #3: At the snap, A is flagged for illegal motion, and B intercepts a legal forward pass and advances. During B's run, B2 clips and A3 grasps btu does not twist B1's facemask. B fumbles and A recovers. What do we have...and don't say a clusterfuck?

Offsetting penalties, replay down.



Question #4: 1st and goal for A at B's 8. A1 runs for a touchdown, but during the run, A2 is flagged for holding in B's endzone. B accepts the penalty. The next play is ___'s ball, ___down and ___to go at the ___ yard line..

A's ball, 1st down and goal to go at just outside the 10 yard line


Question #5: True of False: K kicks an onsides kick which does not hit the ground and goes 12 yards. At that point A beats B to the ball and catches it out of the air on B's 48 yardline where A is promptly tackled. It is first and 10 for A at B's 48 yard line.

False. Because it did not touch the ground, A interfered with B. Penalty on A for interference.

[albionmoonlight]

Question #3: At the snap, A is flagged for illegal motion, and B intercepts a legal forward pass and advances. During B's run, B2 clips and A3 grasps btu does not twist B1's facemask. B fumbles and A recovers. What do we have...and don't say a clusterfuck?

B's personal foul (clipping) swallows up the other two penalties. Because the clipping occured after the interception, the change of possession counts. I think that A would end up with first and ten after the fumble and have the 15 yard clipping penalty tacked on.


: 1st and goal for A at B's 8. A1 runs for a touchdown, but during the run, A2 is flagged for holding in B's endzone. B accepts the penalty. The next play is ___'s ball, ___down and ___to go at the ___ yard line.

A's ball, 1st and goal from the 10. Take the holding penalty from the spot of the foul--in this case the goal line--and replay the down.

True of False: K kicks an onsides kick which does not hit the ground and goes 12 yards. At that point A beats B to the ball and catches it out of the air on B's 48 yardline where A is promptly tackled. It is first and 10 for A at B's 48 yard line.

True, I don't think that an onside kick has to hit the ground. And I don't see B having called for a fair catch or anything.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Okay here are a few more. To make it easy...quote this post and put your answers underneath. I'm actually enjoying doing this...hopefully you all are too. For the true and false ones, if the answer is false can you explain why?

Question #3: At the snap, A is flagged for illegal motion, and B intercepts a legal forward pass and advances. During B's run, B2 clips and A3 grasps btu does not twist B1's facemask. B fumbles and A recovers. What do we have...and don't say a clusterfuck?

Not sure if this is reading too much into the question, but wouldn't illegal motion be a pre-snap penalty, therefore the play does not occur?


Question #4: 1st and goal for A at B's 8. A1 runs for a touchdown, but during the run, A2 is flagged for holding in B's endzone. B accepts the penalty. The next play is ___'s ball, ___down and ___to go at the ___ yard line.

A's ball, 1st down, goal to go, at the 10 yard line-- 10 yard penalty from the spot of the file, replay the down.


Question #5: True of False: K kicks an onsides kick which does not hit the ground and goes 12 yards. At that point A beats B to the ball and catches it out of the air on B's 48 yardline where A is promptly tackled. It is first and 10 for A at B's 48 yard line.

True...agree with albion, i don't think the ball needs to touch the ground, just travel before A can touch.

[BrianD]

Question #3: At the snap, A is flagged for illegal motion, and B intercepts a legal forward pass and advances. During B's run, B2 clips and A3 grasps btu does not twist B1's facemask. B fumbles and A recovers. What do we have...and don't say a clusterfuck?


I'm going to do these one at a time and not look at the answers below...

Team A will be given the option for B's penalty and decline it to keep the ball. Team B will be given the option on the first penalty and probably accept it to give A a 5-yard penalty from the original LOS. I would assume that Team B would also have the option of declining the first penalty to give Team A the ball and a first-and-ten if the resulting field position made that option appealing.

Edit: After reading the other answers, I see that I forgot about the facemask penalty after the interception. Since high school doesn't care if the facemask was twisted, this is a penalty. A can't get the ball back after the fumble since they fail the "hands clean" guideline. I'll change my answer to the illegal motion penalty being declined (as it isn't a dead ball foul), and the clip and facemask penalties being assessed from the spot of the interception.

[BrianD]

Question #4: 1st and goal for A at B's 8. A1 runs for a touchdown, but during the run, A2 is flagged for holding in B's endzone. B accepts the penalty. The next play is ___'s ball, ___down and ___to go at the ___ yard line.


A's ball, 1st down and goal from the 10. It is a 10 yard spot foul enforced from the goal line.

[BrianD]

Question #5: True of False: K kicks an onsides kick which does not hit the ground and goes 12 yards. At that point A beats B to the ball and catches it out of the air on B's 48 yardline where A is promptly tackled. It is first and 10 for A at B's 48 yard line.

False. Until the ball touches the ground, B is the only team with a right to the ball. This would be an illegal touching penalty and a re-kick.

[Dr. Sak]

Question #3: At the snap, A is flagged for illegal motion, and B intercepts a legal forward pass and advances. During B's run, B2 clips and A3 grasps btu does not twist B1's facemask. B fumbles and A recovers. What do we have...and don't say a clusterfuck?

Answer:
As long as there are no unsportsman like or dead ball fouls, anytime there are live ball fouls by both teams, you will replay the down. If A commits 4 live ball fouls and B only 1, you still replay the down.

Suburban, illegal motion is not a penalty until the ball is snapped. Up until that time the player still has time to set.


Question #4: 1st and goal for A at B's 8. A1 runs for a touchdown, but during the run, A2 is flagged for holding in B's endzone. B accepts the penalty. The next play is ___'s ball, ___down and ___to go at the ___ yard line.

Answer:
Most of you got this correct. The spot of the foul is the goal line, the penalty is 10 yards and replay the down. So it is A's ball, first and goal from the 10.


Question #5: True of False: K kicks an onsides kick which does not hit the ground and goes 12 yards. At that point A beats B to the ball and catches it out of the air on B's 48 yardline where A is promptly tackled. It is first and 10 for A at B's 48 yard line.

Answer:
The correct answer is False. Just like for a post scrimmage kick (punt), R has exclusive rights to the ball until it hits the ground. That is why when you see onsides kicks the kicker kicks the ball into the ground first.

The penalty is not illegal touching however, it is kick catch interference.


Good job so far guys. Let's see what else I can dig up.

[BrianD]

Is there any rule that says a receiving team member has to be attempting a catch, or in position to attempt a catch for it to be kick catch interference?

[digamma]

For #5, doesn't the player on the receiving team have to be in a position where he reasonably could have caught the kick?

[Dr. Sak]

I really don't think but I am going to double check and see.

[BrianD]

For #5, doesn't the player on the receiving team have to be in a position where he reasonably could have caught the kick?

The reason that I asked my question (and used the illegal touching) is that I know kicking team players in the NFL occasionally catch a punt on the fly once the receiver has left hoping for a touchback. I don't think I've seen that happen at any other level and I don't know if the NFL has a special rule for this situation.

[Mustang]

The reason that I asked my question (and used the illegal touching) is that I know kicking team players in the NFL occasionally catch a punt on the fly once the receiver has left hoping for a touchback. I don't think I've seen that happen at any other level and I don't know if the NFL has a special rule for this situation.

Probably a judgement call on if someone was attempting to actually try to catch the ball which is what I thought was going on when the phrase 'Player A beat B to the ball...'

[BrianD]

Probably a judgement call on if someone was attempting to actually try to catch the ball which is what I thought was going on when the phrase 'Player A beat B to the ball...'

Sure, I can see where kick catch interference was implied by the stated situation. I'm still curious what happens when there was nobody from the receiving team present?

[Dr. Sak]

My rule book and case book is in the car. I'll have the answer sometime tonight.

[Mustang]

My rule book and case book is in the car. I'll have the answer sometime tonight.

Just like instant replay, gotta wait for the refs.

[Dr. Sak]

Just like instant replay, gotta wait for the refs.

We strive to get it right!

[dacman]

Just like instant replay, gotta wait for the refs.


YouTube - 2003 Super Bowl Commercial Budweiser Clydesdales (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY-SCzaqxVo)

[Pumpy Tudors]

My rule book and case book is in the car. I'll have the answer sometime tonight.
What? You can't run outside to your car now? Are you some bozo who has to park a mile away and ride a shuttle bus to work?

[Dr. Sak]

Free Kicks or Kickoffs

Rule 6-1.5 - Any K player may recover a free kick if it has BOTH touched the ground and goes beyond the plane of R's free kick line. The two requirements may occur in any order.

Scrimmage Kick or Punt

Rule 6-5.6 - While any free kick is in flight in or beyond the neutral zone to R's goal line or any scrimmage kick is in flight beyond the neutral zone to the recievers goal line, K shall not:

a. Touch the ball or R, unless blocked into th eball or R, or to ward off a blocker or

b. Obstruct R's path to the ball.

This prohibition applies even when no fair catch signal is given, but it does not apply after a free kick has been touched by a receiver, or after a scrimmage kick has been touched by a receiver who was clearly beyond the neutral zone at the time of the touching.

EXCEPTION: K may catch, touch, muff or bat a scrimmage kick in flight beyond the neutral zone if no player of R is in position to catch the ball.

So in short it is legal to catch a punt in the air if no R is present but illegal to catch a kickoff in the air even if there is no R present.

[digamma]

Thanks. That's different from the way the college rule is written.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Suburban, illegal motion is not a penalty until the ball is snapped. Up until that time the player still has time to set. [/spoiler]



See in my version, 2 guys were moving at the snap ;)

[Dr. Sak]

See in my version, 2 guys were moving at the snap ;)

Even in your case those guys can both be in motion, just as long as they both set before the snap. :D

[albionmoonlight]

See in my version, 2 guys were moving at the snap ;)

Even in your case those guys can both be in motion, just as long as they both set before the snap. :D

The message, as always, is don't f*&^ with Dr. Sak.

[Dr. Sak]

If you guys would like...I'll continue this tomorrow.

[Suburban Rhythm]

The message, as always, is don't f*&^ with Dr. Sak.

I said AT the snap, so they couldn't have been set. :p

[Suburban Rhythm]

Oh, and yeah...continue please. I liked these. Though my boss wishes you wouldn't, cause they cut into my work.

[albionmoonlight]

If you guys would like...I'll continue this tomorrow.

Totally.

[BrianD]

If you guys would like...I'll continue this tomorrow.

I enjoy these as well. If I think of it, I'll even post one I found on an officiating website. It might even stump you. :)

[Dr. Sak]

Three short ones to start the day...

Question #6:
During a scrimmage kick B10 calls for a fair catch on B's 30, a) when he catches the ball he decides to run with it; b) he blocks A legally and the ball hits the ground behind him. What penalties, if any, occurred in a) and b)?

Question #7
During a scrimmage kick, K punts the ball beyond the neutral zone where it hits the ground. While rolling it hits K7 in the leg on the R's 32,; thenR8 picks up the ball on R's 30 and begins to run with it. During the run R8 fumbles and K6 recovers on the R's 40 yard line. Where will the ball be placed for 1st down?

Question #8
There are 9 reasons that the clock would be stopped after a play, how many can you name?

[albionmoonlight]

Question #8There are 9 reasons that the clock would be stopped after a play, how many can you name?

1. Penalty
2. A team scored on the play
3. Ball goes out of bounds
4. Incomplete pass
5. Change of possession
6. End of quarter
7. A team calls time out
8. A player is injured (or other reason for an official time out)
9. ?

[albionmoonlight]

Three short ones to start the day...

Question #7
During a scrimmage kick, K punts the ball beyond the neutral zone where it hits the ground. While rolling it hits K7 in the leg on the R's 32,; thenR8 picks up the ball on R's 30 and begins to run with it. During the run R8 fumbles and K6 recovers on the R's 40 yard line. Where will the ball be placed for 1st down?

I am pretty sure that K7's leg touch does not down the ball. And R8 didn't muff the punt, but got possession and then fumbled. So, I think that it is just K ball first and ten on R's 40.

[Aylmar]

I am pretty sure that K7's leg touch does not down the ball. And R8 didn't muff the punt, but got possession and then fumbled. So, I think that it is just K ball first and ten on R's 40.

I know in the NFL, any touching of the ball by the kicking team beyond the line of scrimmage is illegal touching at the spot. This insulates the receiving team from mishap (other than fouls they commit, which will impact the spot). This is why, on occasion, you see guys swoop in and try to get a loose ball that the kicking team has touched. The smart ones know that no matter what happens once they grab the ball, if it is a bad result, it will just come back to the spot where the kicking team first touched it. If something good happens, they decline the penalty and take the better result. Since there is no foul mentioned on the play by the R team, the ball will be spotted at the 32, R's ball.

[BrianD]

Three short ones to start the day...

Question #6:
During a scrimmage kick B10 calls for a fair catch on B's 30, a) when he catches the ball he decides to run with it; b) he blocks A legally and the ball hits the ground behind him. What penalties, if any, occurred in a) and b)?

Both are penalties since you can't block after a fair catch call. Not sure what the actual penalties are though. USC?

Question #7
During a scrimmage kick, K punts the ball beyond the neutral zone where it hits the ground. While rolling it hits K7 in the leg on the R's 32,; thenR8 picks up the ball on R's 30 and begins to run with it. During the run R8 fumbles and K6 recovers on the R's 40 yard line. Where will the ball be placed for 1st down?

Ball is placed at R's 32. The touch of the K leg is enough to down the ball, but since the ball wasn't controlled, R can still pick it up and run. I "think" they generally get a free play here.

Question #8
There are 9 reasons that the clock would be stopped after a play, how many can you name?

1. Incomplete pass.
2. Run out of bounds.
3. Penalty.
4. Score.
5. Injury.
6. End of period.
7. Time out.
8. Measurement.
9. Referee requested stoppage.

Edit: Crap, forgot change of possession.

[Celeval]

Wouldn't measurement + referee requested stoppage be the same, there?

[BrianD]

Probably. I was sort-of guessing with my answers and had trouble coming up with #9. Replacing that with change of possession would probably be a good idea.

[Dr. Sak]

Question #6:
During a scrimmage kick B10 calls for a fair catch on B's 30, a) when he catches the ball he decides to run with it; b) he blocks A legally and the ball hits the ground behind him. What penalties, if any, occurred in a) and b)?


Answer:
There are penalties on both plays. In a) the penalty is delay of game. B would retain the ball first and 10 on their own 25. In b) it is an illegal block which carries a 15 yard penalty. So it would be 1st and 10 for B 15 yards or half the distance from the spot where the ball comes to rest.




Question #7
During a scrimmage kick, K punts the ball beyond the neutral zone where it hits the ground. While rolling it hits K7 in the leg on the R's 32,; then R8 picks up the ball on R's 30 and begins to run with it. During the run R8 fumbles and K6 recovers on the R's 40 yard line. Where will the ball be placed for 1st down?


Answer:
First touching by K occurs at R's 32. Anything that occurs after that point (not including unsportsmanlike fouls) can be nixed by R. R fumbled but since the touching occurred past the neutral zone, R can elect to bring it back to the point of first touching by K which would be the 32. First and 10 for R on their own 32.



Question #8
There are 9 reasons that the clock would be stopped after a play, how many can you name?

Answer:

1. Ball goes out of bounds.
2. B is awarded a new series.
3. Time out (official or team)
4. The period ends
5. Inadvertent whistle
6. Legal or illegal forward pass is incomplete
7. Down ends following a foul
8. After a fair catch
9. Score or touchdown occurs

I think that covers them all.

[BrianD]

Looks like I was 1-for-3. Anybody want to hire me to be a ref?

[Dr. Sak]

Looks like I was 1-for-3. Anybody want to hire me to be a ref?

Don't worry about missing questions. Just as long as you aren't the Referee or Umpire you are fine. Those two have to know everything.

[BrianD]

Don't worry about missing questions. Just as long as you aren't the Referee or Umpire you are fine. Those two have to know everything.

I do enjoy these questions, and they are a great way to learn. I guess I'll just have to plan for a career as a Line Judge...

[Dr. Sak]

I do enjoy these questions, and they are a great way to learn. I guess I'll just have to plan for a career as a Line Judge...

That's what I am! :)

[BrianD]

How hard is it dealing with the coaches and players? The LJ doesn't have quite the responsibility of the R or U in managing the whole game, but I would imagine they've got plenty to handle managing that sideline. Any good horror stories?

[Dr. Sak]

How hard is it dealing with the coaches and players? The LJ doesn't have quite the responsibility of the R or U in managing the whole game, but I would imagine they've got plenty to handle managing that sideline. Any good horror stories?

I've been doing varsity for 2 years and I have a good number of stories. I won't name names but I'll fill you in on some.

There is one coach who has been coaching for close to 30 years at the same school. I got to Quad A ball really quick, most of the guys who get where I am are at least 10 years older than I am. So when he saw me he saw "fresh meat". He began the game by quizzing me during every down. Asking questions which I knew he knew the answer to, but he wanted to test me. I wasn't going to be a jerk, so I answered them all.

One of my responsibilities is to relay the penalty information to the coaches on my sideline. He got a 15 yard facemask, I ran to the sideline to tell him who it was on and before I got the number out of my mouth he started screaming at me. I just turned and walked away. After halftime, the coach goes up to the Referee and tells him I am not telling him the penalty information. The ref asks me if that is true and I responded..."I went to tell Mr [name redacted] the number and he started to talk to me. I didn't want to interrupt him because when I talk I expect the other person to listen and I wanted to extend him the same courtesy. So I wasn't able to get the number to him before the next play started."

The coaches mouth dropped. He didn't know what to say. Late in the fourth quarter he came over and apologized to me. I told my crew about and they told me that was the first time they ever heard that guy apologize for anything.

It's amazing how a team will act like their head coach. If the head coach is respectful, so is the team. If the head coach bitches...so will the team and his assistants. I did a game and on my sideline was a predominately black school. The game and his sideline was getting out of hand so I flagged him and gave his team a sideline warning. He flipped out on me and started yelling "He just did that because who we are and what we look like." I said to the coach "If you are inferring what I think you are, I would suggest that you either walk away or not say that again because if I hear that again, you will be out of this game."

In my first playoff game our crew had to be escourted off the field by police. During that game (ironically enough it was against the team I just mentioned but not at their home field) there were 9th grade coaches of the home team's school outside the team box yelling obscenities to us. When we told the head coach about it his response was "They aren't doing anything wrong, you are just blowing the game and want an excuse." The police escorted us off the field and an old man tried to hit us with a cane.

I have coaches stare me down when the make a call I don't like. I had another in a scrimmage stand behind me on a goalline play because he thought I missed the fact that his guy was in last play. Or coaches will play the game where they are the home team and want the away team to take the field first out of the locker room. Where in fact it has been a rule for 20 years that the home team has to go out first.

If you want to be a ref you have to learn one simple rule...when you step out on that field...the only friends you have are the ones wearing the stripes. The rest of the people there will turn on you in a heartbeat.

In my 2 years I have done 26 varsity games, 4 WPIAL playoff games, and 2 state playoff games. Last year I was one step away from doing the WPIAL finals at Heinz Field. I've been approached this year to take the NCAA test so I can start doing college ball.

If this is something you are thinking of doing...do it. I enjoy it and I bet you would too.

[Dr. Sak]

Dola...actually the LJ has MORE responsibility than the R or U. Don't tell any Referee I said this but they have the easiest job out there. They are responsible for one person and one person only...the quarterback. The umpire watches the interior linemen.

For LJ's and L's...

Presnap...make sure that there are 7 offensive linemen on the ball. Know who your eligible are and who is ineligible to go out for a pass. Watch for false start or offsides. Your key is the second WR in, if he motions away you watch him to make sure he doesnt start up early. If there are two men in motion, make sure they are set before the snap.

Snap...Watch the tackle on your side for hold AND the WR key incase he gets held at the line. Sweep your way watch the blocking out front...when the ball carrier passes you, you have him. YOU HAVE ALL SPOTS.

[BrianD]

If this is something you are thinking of doing...do it. I enjoy it and I bet you would too.

I have thought about doing this a number of times, but then I try to think of how I would handle some of the situations you describe and back off the idea. I'm not sure I am authoritative enough to not get rolled over by a hyper-aggressive coach.

[Dr. Sak]

I have thought about doing this a number of times, but then I try to think of how I would handle some of the situations you describe and back off the idea. I'm not sure I am authoritative enough to not get rolled over by a hyper-aggressive coach.

Those are only select situations. Don't let that deter you. I'm a hot head and have learned to just ignore them. If you show they are getting to you, they will keep doing it. If you ignore or just walk away, you will be fine.

I love getting them when they don't know the rules because once you do that one time, they will leave you alone out of embarrassment.

This one never fails...QB rolls out of the pocket and just chucks it away with no WR in sight. Flag come out...intentional grounding. Coach starts yelling he was out of the tackle box. I ask the coach what night it is...he said Friday Night...I say..that rules only works on Saturdays and Sundays coach. (NCAA and NFL)

[BrianD]

I'm going to provide #9.

K free kicks, a low bouncing kick that appears to be headed out of bounds deep in R territory. R doesn't attempt to recover, thinking it'll go OOB.

But after a crazy bounce, the ball is about to come to rest in bounds, near the sideline just outside of R's goal line. Before K can recover, R1, with 1 foot on the sideline, kicks the ball A) OOB. B) Into his own EZ where it is recovered by K, C) into and out of his own end zone.

What do you have?

[Dr. Sak]

My initial thought was below

a) Illegal Kicking by R. 15 yards but in this case half the distance. R's

b) Illegal kicking again by R but with K recovering they will decline the penalty and accept the touchdown.

c) Illegal kicking again by R but K will most likely accept the result of the play which would be a safety.

But after reading the key word I am going to go with in a). b), and c) the ball becomes dead just outside the goal line since R1's foot was on the out of bounds line which makes R1 an extension of the out of bounds line. 1st and 10 for R just outside their 1.

[BrianD]

I'm going to ignore your ultimate answer for a while in case anyone else is still playing, but I had a question. The ball is immediately dead in HS if a punt or kick crosses the goal line. What would happen in a situation where there was a muff before the ball went past and what would happen if "new force" pushed the ball past? Does that change anything?

[Dr. Sak]

I'm going to ignore your ultimate answer for a while in case anyone else is still playing, but I had a question. The ball is immediately dead in HS if a punt or kick crosses the goal line. What would happen in a situation where there was a muff before the ball went past and what would happen if "new force" pushed the ball past? Does that change anything?

Muffing or batting the ball IN FLIGHT is not considered a new force. So R could attempt to catch the ball but if it goes through it's hands and goes into the endzone there was no new force and it would be a touchback. But if the ball rolls they muff it and it goes into the endzone, it is a free ball.

[albionmoonlight]

Dr. S., another question.

When is a team decision to accept or decline a penalty final? I am thinking of the occassional situation where a defense may decline a third down penalty so that it becomes fourth down, but then may change its mind depending on whether the other team sends out the punter, FG kicker, or offense.

Is there a hard and fast rule for when a team has to choose and cannot take it back?

[Dr. Sak]

Once you make a decision on a penalty it is final. Now if you are going for two and want the ball spotted on the left hash...you break the huddle call time out...you can ask for a re-spot.

[BrianD]

I'm going to provide #9.

K free kicks, a low bouncing kick that appears to be headed out of bounds deep in R territory. R doesn't attempt to recover, thinking it'll go OOB.

But after a crazy bounce, the ball is about to come to rest in bounds, near the sideline just outside of R's goal line. Before K can recover, R1, with 1 foot on the sideline, kicks the ball A) OOB. B) Into his own EZ where it is recovered by K, C) into and out of his own end zone.

What do you have?

Ruling on the play (which surprised me): Penalty on the kicking team for a kick out of bounds. Apparently with R out standing on the sideline, he is out of bounds. Touching the ball - even at rest - means the ball just went out of bounds. R gets the normal options of taking the ball where it went out, a 5-yard penalty and a re-kick, or taking the ball 25 yards from the spot of the kick. How's that for crazy?

[Dr. Sak]

Actually now that you said it...it makes sense. No chance in force by R so that for K "placed" the ball OOB. Nice one!

[BrianD]

Actually now that you said it...it makes sense. No chance in force by R so that for K "placed" the ball OOB. Nice one!

Nice little loophole for the receiving team though. :)

[Dr. Sak]

Question 10: 1st and 10 for A on their own 35 yardline. The quarterback A1 is lined up in a shotgun formation 5 yards behind the center. At the snap he throws the ball to A10 who took 1 step back from the Line of Scrimmage. A10 catches the ball, stays behind the LOS and throws it back to A1 who makes a simulations catch with B2 at the 50 yard line. What is the ruling for this play?

Question 11: During a scrimmage kick, K10 punts the ball at R's 45 yard line. The wind is so strong that the punt does not cross the neutral zone. B2 attempts to catch the ball at the 45 yard line, muffs the ball and a) K recovers and runs for a touchdown, b) K recovers the kick behind the neutral zone and punts is again into R's end zone. What do we have in both a) and b).

[BrianD]

Question 10: 1st and 10 for A on their own 35 yardline. The quarterback A1 is lined up in a shotgun formation 5 yards behind the center. At the snap he throws the ball to A10 who took 1 step back from the Line of Scrimmage. A10 catches the ball, stays behind the LOS and throws it back to A1 who makes a simulations catch with B2 at the 50 yard line. What is the ruling for this play?

In general, a simultaneous catch is an immediate dead ball with possession remaining with A. In this case though, I believe there would be a flag for an illegal forward pass since the first pass to A10 was forward.

Question 11: During a scrimmage kick, K10 punts the ball at R's 45 yard line. The wind is so strong that the punt does not cross the neutral zone. B2 attempts to catch the ball at the 45 yard line, muffs the ball and a) K recovers and runs for a touchdown, b) K recovers the kick behind the neutral zone and punts is again into R's end zone. What do we have in both a) and b).

Situation A would be a TD for K. You normally can't advance a muffed kick, but since the ball was behind the LOS, K could have picked it up off the ground and advanced it. I don't think the muff changes that.

Situation B would be a touchback. Since the first punt didn't cross the LOS, K could kick it again. Realistically, there would probably be someone downfield early for a penalty here, but this isn't in the description.

I'll lay even odds on being 3-for-3 or 0-for-3 here.

[albionmoonlight]

I agree with BrianD on all three answers.

[albionmoonlight]

dola--

I will note that in hypo (b) they must be playing in a tornado since the wind was strong enough to keep the ball from crossing the neutral zone, but seconds later allowed K to punt it 45+ yards.

[BrianD]

Do we know for sure if a forward pass that stays behind the LOS is counted as a forward pass? For some reason I have this thought that there was a special rule about that. Was it just a rule allowing downfield blocking, or was it a rule allowing another pass?

[Dr. Sak]

dola--

I will note that in hypo (b) they must be playing in a tornado since the wind was strong enough to keep the ball from crossing the neutral zone, but seconds later allowed K to punt it 45+ yards.

In my first ever state playoff game, I saw a punt get punted...reach the LOS and get blown backward to where the punter caught it. We were getting some pretty heavy gusts that day.

[Dr. Sak]

Question 10: 1st and 10 for A on their own 35 yardline. The quarterback A1 is lined up in a shotgun formation 5 yards behind the center. At the snap he throws the ball to A10 who took 1 step back from the Line of Scrimmage. A10 catches the ball, stays behind the LOS and throws it back to A1 who makes a simulations catch with B2 at the 50 yard line. What is the ruling for this play?

Even though the ball was still behind the LOS, the pass was forward. You are only allowed 1 forward pass per play, therefore it is an illegal forward pass on A. 5 yard penalty plus a loss of down. So it would be 2nd and 16 from the 29 yard line.

Question 11: During a scrimmage kick, K10 punts the ball at R's 45 yard line. The wind is so strong that the punt does not cross the neutral zone. B2 attempts to catch the ball at the 45 yard line, muffs the ball and a) K recovers and runs for a touchdown, b) K recovers the kick behind the neutral zone and punts is again into R's end zone. What do we have in both a) and b).

In a) it is a touchdown. The only way K can advance a muff on a scrimmage kick is if the kick is muffed either behind the LOS or is muffed past the LOS and travels back behind the LOS where K recovers and can advance.

In b) it is a touchback. Since the ball did not cross the LOS, K can still run, pass, or punt the ball.

Do we know for sure if a forward pass that stays behind the LOS is counted as a forward pass? For some reason I have this thought that there was a special rule about that. Was it just a rule allowing downfield blocking, or was it a rule allowing another pass?

It is a forward pass but since it is behind the LOS, blockers can still release downfield and block. Don't think too much into it, just think how screen plays to the RB develop. The rule was added so that you can only make 1 forward pass per play.

[BrianD]

It is a forward pass but since it is behind the LOS, blockers can still release downfield and block. Don't think too much into it, just think how screen plays to the RB develop. The rule was added so that you can only make 1 forward pass per play.

I remember thinking at the time (this is fairly recent, right?) that allowing blockers downfield on a forward pass behind the LOS seemed wrong. That is why in your example I had to remember which "wrong" rule was actually right.

[Dr. Sak]

I remember thinking at the time (this is fairly recent, right?) that allowing blockers downfield on a forward pass behind the LOS seemed wrong. That is why in your example I had to remember which "wrong" rule was actually right.

I've only been doing this for 4 years but I remember way back when I was playing at 9 and 10 years old and we had screen plays to RB's where the linemen went downfield. I remember our coach yelling that the RB had to catch the ball behind the LOS for the blockers to be able to go down field.

[BrianD]

I've only been doing this for 4 years but I remember way back when I was playing at 9 and 10 years old and we had screen plays to RB's where the linemen went downfield. I remember our coach yelling that the RB had to catch the ball behind the LOS for the blockers to be able to go down field.

It is entirely possible that I just had the rule wrong for years and it was only recently I got corrected. I can remember our linemen doing a count before the started downfield, but maybe that was just for timing so they stayed close to the RB.

[Dr. Sak]

I will have another question or two in a bit. If you have any, fire away.

[albionmoonlight]

How often, if ever, do you see teams try exotic things like the fumblerooski or the center sneak or that thing where the offensive line all lines up well away from the center?

And, do they ever work?

And, what would you say is the strangest legal designed play that you saw a team attempt?

[Dr. Sak]

How often, if ever, do you see teams try exotic things like the fumblerooski or the center sneak or that thing where the offensive line all lines up well away from the center?

And, do they ever work?

And, what would you say is the strangest legal designed play that you saw a team attempt?

Most of that crazy stuff with the line lined up away from the center happens for PATs. Coaches do it so that teams have to spend some of their allotted practice time each week practicing defending it.

Punts are another time where you get some crazy formations. There is a numbers exception on punts so you don't need players numbered 50 to 79 as interior linemen. So you'll get crazy formations with 6 guys on the LOS on one side of the center, making the center actually eligible to go out for a pass on that play.

Or another team staggers who is on the line and who isnt on a punt. I think it is stupid because most of the time some kid wont line up on the LOS like they are suppose to and cost their team 5 yard for illegal formation.

I have never seen a fumblrouski nor a center sneak, and something tells me that the center sneak is illegal. For an interior lineman to be able to run with the ball (that isn't a fumble) they must turn completely around and face their own goalline before taking the ball.

This isn't strange but before games our Referee and umpire will ask coaches if they have or plan on using any trick plays or formations, just so we are aware. This one team planned to start the game with a triple reverse. We all knew it was going to be a nightmare and ended up costing the team a 30 yard loss on their first play.

Once on a punt the punter caught the ball on the snap...bent down and just heaved the ball up in the air. Then a player on K caught the ball and ran for a TD. R didn't realize that it was thrown and not kicked. Pretty creative play.

[BrianD]

Punts are another time where you get some crazy formations. There is a numbers exception on punts so you don't need players numbered 50 to 79 as interior linemen. So you'll get crazy formations with 6 guys on the LOS on one side of the center, making the center actually eligible to go out for a pass on that play.

Speaking of his, have you run into anyone playing the A-11 offense yet? That set uses the numbers exception by lining the QB up in a 7+ yard shotgun so they are always in a punt formation. Everyone has an eligible number, so the defense has to figure out who is on the LOS and who isn't. Sounds like it could be a mess to officiate.

[Dr. Sak]

Speaking of his, have you run into anyone playing the A-11 offense yet? That set uses the numbers exception by lining the QB up in a 7+ yard shotgun so they are always in a punt formation. Everyone has an eligible number, so the defense has to figure out who is on the LOS and who isn't. Sounds like it could be a mess to officiate.

I haven't run into a team that does this yet. But we were warned about it last year. One of our chapter meeting discussed the A-11 offense.

The other thing that is in the rules which I have yet to see is the fair catch kick. If K is punting from his on EZ and punts it short...R can fair catch it and then request a FG attempt on the next down. The FG attempt would be from the spot of the catch and B would have to line up 10 yards from that spot and not allowed to cross the restraining line till the ball is kicked.

[Dr. Sak]

Question 12: 2nd and 10 from the 50 yardline. A3 is running a sweep where A5 and A6 are blockers in front of the play. B6 runs up and hits both A5 and A6 at the knees allowing B7 to come in and make the tackle. A5 fumbles on B's 45 and it goes out of bounds forward to B's 41 yard line. Where is the ball spotted?

[BrianD]

I haven't run into a team that does this yet. But we were warned about it last year. One of our chapter meeting discussed the A-11 offense.

The other thing that is in the rules which I have yet to see is the fair catch kick. If K is punting from his on EZ and punts it short...R can fair catch it and then request a FG attempt on the next down. The FG attempt would be from the spot of the catch and B would have to line up 10 yards from that spot and not allowed to cross the restraining line till the ball is kicked.

The other fun part of this - if I remember correctly - is that it is an untimed down which is allowed even if time expires during the punt.

[Dr. Sak]

The other fun part of this - if I remember correctly - is that it is an untimed down which is allowed even if time expires during the punt.

You are correct.

There was a loophole last year that allowed teams to carry over penalties into OT. If A scores and B commits a foul during the play, A can carry it over to the PAT or KO. Well nothing was written in the rules that you couldn't do it if time expired in the 4th and A scored and carry it over into OT. This year they changed it. You can carry it over from quarter to quarter (even the 2nd to the 3rd) but in the 4th you must take it on the PAT.

[albionmoonlight]

Question 12: 2nd and 10 from the 50 yardline. A3 is running a sweep where A5 and A6 are blockers in front of the play. B6 runs up and hits both A5 and A6 at the knees allowing B7 to come in and make the tackle. A5 fumbles on B's 45 and it goes out of bounds forward to B's 41 yard line. Where is the ball spotted?


I'll say that B6's actions were legal (I think that a defender can hit a blocker low). I also think that the offense does not get the benefit of the forward progress of the fumble. So I will say 3rd and 5 from B's 45.

[BrianD]

Question 12: 2nd and 10 from the 50 yardline. A3 is running a sweep where A5 and A6 are blockers in front of the play. B6 runs up and hits both A5 and A6 at the knees allowing B7 to come in and make the tackle. A5 fumbles on B's 45 and it goes out of bounds forward to B's 41 yard line. Where is the ball spotted?

This is going to be mostly a guess, but let's see how it goes...

I don't know the rule for what B6 did, but I'm going to assume that hitting someone at the knees outside of the free-blocking zone is probably a 15-yard penalty for safety reasons. I'm also going to guess that a forward fumble is OK in HS football. Because of this I've got the ball marked down at the 41 with an added 15 yard penalty so it will be first and 10 for A on B's 26.

[Dr. Sak]

Question 12: 2nd and 10 from the 50 yardline. A3 is running a sweep where A5 and A6 are blockers in front of the play. B6 runs up and hits both A5 and A6 at the knees allowing B7 to come in and make the tackle. A5 fumbles on B's 45 and it goes out of bounds forward to B's 41 yard line. Where is the ball spotted?

B6's hitting below the waist is illegal in High School (but not college or the NFL). There is no hitting below the waist on offense or defense, unless you are and the ball are in the free blocking zone.

The basic spot for this play is the end of the run. Also in High School if the ball isn't intentionally batted forward, the spot for the fumble is where it rests. In this case the end of the run is the 41 yard line. 15 yard penalty for B which makes it 1st and 10 for A on B's 26 yard line.

[dacman]

Not one I would've gotten right until I saw it IRL:

A scores a touchdown and elects to go for the 2pt conversion. On the attempt, A1 attempts a backward pass where the ball is batted in the air behind the LOS by B5. The ball travels forward to where A2, A3, B6 and B7 all are standing in the EZ, near the back, and they collide into each other while attempting to catch the ball. B7 winds up with the ball while A2, A3, and B6 all fall to the ground. B7, still standing, attempts to advance the ball and manages to go forward several yards where A3 tackles B7 before B7 leaves the EZ. What's the ruling?

edit: typos and clarification

[Dr. Sak]

Not one I would've gotten right until I saw it IRL:

A scores a touchdown and elects to go for the 2pt conversion. On the attempt, A1 attempts to pass where the ball is batted in the air behind the LOS by B5. The ball travels for to where A2, A3, B6 and B7 all are standing in the EZ, near the back, and they collide into each other while attempting to catch the ball. B7 winds up with the ball while A2, A3, and B6 all fall to the ground. B7, still standing, attempts to advance the ball and manages to go forward several yards where A3 tackles B7 before B7 leaves the EZ. What's the ruling?

Since B tipped the ball...all Pass Interference restrictions are gone. Once B secures the ball during a Try the play is blown dead.

[dacman]

Since B tipped the ball...all Pass Interference restrictions are gone. Once B secures the ball during a Try the play is blown dead.


Meh...probably should've worded that differently. Try this: what would the ruling be if the attempted pass by A1 was ruled a lateral. I'm guessing the NCAA rule is different (this happened during a college game).

[Dr. Sak]

B's force put it in the EZ so would it be a safety? 2 points for A.

[BrianD]

B's force put it in the EZ so would it be a safety? 2 points for A.

This is on a 2-point conversion attempt, right? Make that a 1-point safety.

[Dr. Sak]

Thanks for correcting me.

[dacman]

Not one I would've gotten right until I saw it IRL:

A scores a touchdown and elects to go for the 2pt conversion. On the attempt, A1 attempts a backward pass where the ball is batted in the air behind the LOS by B5. The ball travels forward to where A2, A3, B6 and B7 all are standing in the EZ, near the back, and they collide into each other while attempting to catch the ball. B7 winds up with the ball while A2, A3, and B6 all fall to the ground. B7, still standing, attempts to advance the ball and manages to go forward several yards where A3 tackles B7 before B7 leaves the EZ. What's the ruling?

Since B forced the ball into the EZ and did not advance the ball out of the EZ, a safety occured. A is awarded 1 point for a conversion safety.

http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=3923.0 (http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=3923.0)

[Suburban Rhythm]

Question back to the Dr. Something I saw in the Steelers-Eagles game last night that made me :confused: .

Eagles first drive, 3rd and 7 or so from the Steelers 15. McNabb throws a pass for the TE (I think Celek). James Harrison is holding him pretty bad.

The official waves the pass incomplete as the ball bounces through the EZ. only THEN does he reach for and toss his flag. Is that taught-- to signal the incompletion first? I don't think the incompletion--or completion-- should matter if there is a penalty.

[BrianD]

I'll take a stab at this before Sak gives the official ruling. When you've got multiple things to do at the same time, I would imagine killing the play and controlling the clock would take precedence over marking the penalty.

[Suburban Rhythm]

I'll take a stab at this before Sak gives the official ruling. When you've got multiple things to do at the same time, I would imagine killing the play and controlling the clock would take precedence over marking the penalty.

Wouldn't the clock stop on the penalty, too, though?

And my original explanation wasn't great. If it's interference, shouldn't he make that call while the ball is in the air...or even defensive holding before the ball was even thown?

Just seemed awkward to me that the penalty is occuring while the clock is still running...he calls the pass incomplete...and only then throws the flag.

[BrianD]

Wouldn't the clock stop on the penalty, too, though?

And my original explanation wasn't great. If it's interference, shouldn't he make that call while the ball is in the air...or even defensive holding before the ball was even thown?

Just seemed awkward to me that the penalty is occuring while the clock is still running...he calls the pass incomplete...and only then throws the flag.

The timekeeper wouldn't stop the clock when the flag comes out. The clock will stop either when the ref signals incomplete or gives the "stop clock" signal.

In theory, the penalty probably should be identified and signaled before the play ends, but if there is any reason that multiple things need to happen at the same time, blowing the play dead is more important (safety) and stopping the clock comes next. A penalty flag is one of those things that you can always catch up on.

[Dr. Sak]

There is no real rule on when to throw the flag. It would have "looked" better if he would've thrown the flag, then signaled incomplete. Me personally, when I call offsides or false start I always hit the whistle first, then throw the flag. The only time I can recall throwing a flag after I've blown the whistle (besides what I mentioned before) was for a dead ball unsportsmanlike call.

We usually meet with the time keeper before the game and he knows that all incomplete passes the ball stops. If it was an obvious incomplete like you said, the ref really didn't need to rush to signal. But what he did wasn't technically wrong, it just would have appeared better to throw the flag first.

[Poli]

Once on a punt the punter caught the ball on the snap...bent down and just heaved the ball up in the air. Then a player on K caught the ball and ran for a TD. R didn't realize that it was thrown and not kicked. Pretty creative play.That...that I'd never heard of.

[airulf]

That...that I'd never heard of.


I am not into the difference between high school and NCAA rules at all, but as a little note, I can ad, that if you fake the punt and pass the ball in stead in a punt like trajectory, defensive pass inteference will not be called.

[Dr. Sak]

Question 13: B1 intercepts A's pass at B's 6 and retreats into his own end zone where B's facemask is grasp and twisted by A2 and B then fumbles in the endzone with the ball rolling a)onto the field of play and out of bounds at the 3 yard line or b) to B's 5 where B recovers. In both a) and b)...whos ball is it, and where is the ball spotted?

[airulf]

a) B ball 1-10 at B18

b) B ball 1-10 at B20

[Dr. Sak]

Question 13: B1 intercepts A's pass at B's 6 and retreats into his own end zone where B's facemask is grasp and twisted by A2 and B then fumbles in the endzone with the ball rolling a)onto the field of play and out of bounds at the 3 yard line or b) to B's 5 where B recovers. In both a) and b)...whos ball is it, and where is the ball spotted?

In both a) and b) B retains the ball. Basic spot for these fouls are the end of the run which in this case since B retreated in the endzone under its own power it is the goalline. Normally it would be a safety but since A fouled it is not.

In both cases it is B's ball...1st and 10 on their own 15 yard line.

[Dr. Sak]

So in a game last night I had two kids spit on each other. Plus I had the coach on my sideline taunting the opposing team players. He said that they were going to put a physical hurting on the kid like he's never felt before.

I sometimes wonder if my job title should involve some sort of babysitting fee.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

So in a game last night I had two kids spit on each other. Plus I had the coach on my sideline taunting the opposing team players. He said that they were going to put a physical hurting on the kid like he's never felt before.

I sometimes wonder if my job title should involve some sort of babysitting fee.

LOL.....I enjoyed umpiring fast pitch softball for 10 years, but I don't miss those rare occasions where stuff like that ruins the experience.

[albionmoonlight]

Sak,

Do you find that the obnoxious coaches/players/parents/whoever are actually normal people when you talk to them outside of gametime and it is just the game that makes them assholes? Or do you get a sense that these are actually assholes all the time and the game just gives them a chance to really put that on their sleeve for three hours?

[BrianD]

So in a game last night I had two kids spit on each other. Plus I had the coach on my sideline taunting the opposing team players. He said that they were going to put a physical hurting on the kid like he's never felt before.

I sometimes wonder if my job title should involve some sort of babysitting fee.

Is there anything you can do about either situation? Is there still a rule where you can eject a kid after 2 USC fouls occur?

[Dr. Sak]

Sak,

Do you find that the obnoxious coaches/players/parents/whoever are actually normal people when you talk to them outside of gametime and it is just the game that makes them assholes? Or do you get a sense that these are actually assholes all the time and the game just gives them a chance to really put that on their sleeve for three hours?

The coaches are all looking for that edge. They all use different tactics to try and get the calls to go their way. Some scream...some bitch non-stop...others are civil and discuss things. As an official i know i have 5 other friends on that field because the rest will turn on you at the drop of a hat.

Off the field most are all civil. But on the field they do whatever they can to help their team win.

Is there anything you can do about either situation? Is there still a rule where you can eject a kid after 2 USC fouls occur?

There are two types of personal fouls. One are unnecessary roughness and one is unsportsmanlike conduct. The difference is the UNR involve contact while the Unsportsmanlike don't. You can only get 2 UNR's till you get thrown out. There is no rule for the amount of unsportsman like calls.

[Dr. Sak]

Dola...also I forgot to tell you guys this. Our crew was graded a few weeks ago. The grader told me I was the best line judge in the Western half of Pennsylvania.

I was pretty stoked to hear that.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Dola...also I forgot to tell you guys this. Our crew was graded a few weeks ago. The grader told me I was the best line judge in the Western half of Pennsylvania.

I was pretty stoked to hear that.
Congratulations! You and the best guy from Eastern PA should duke it out in Harrisburg for line judge supremacy! I'd buy a ticket to that.

[Dr. Sak]

Well I just found out today that I was accepted to be a collegian official starting this fall. Not sure if I'll get a full schedule, but I should get a few games. Mostly on the D-II or D-III level, but it is a step forwards...and to think I only started doing this 3 years ago.

[BrianD]

Fantastic. Congratulations.

[Radii]

wow, that's awesome. Congrats!

[Butter]

Nice.

Remember, Mt. Union always holds. ALWAYS.

[Dr. Sak]

Thanks guys...I am a bit nervous because most likely I will get games this fall and I have to learn a whole new set of rules. Since I won't be giving up my friday night duties...I have to keep two sets of rules separate for High School and College.

[albionmoonlight]

Great news!

Is it common for people to do HS and college? I agree with you that it would be hard to keep it all straight in your head.

[Dr. Sak]

There are two guys on my High School crew that do both. One is a back judge and the rules are that much different and the other is the umpire where the rules are very different. The umpire is actually the rules interpreter and a really smart guy but he even admits he will defer to us on enforcements and such on friday nights.

My main concern is having an inadvertent whistle (see Ed Hoculi) in college. I'm a line judge and in High School once the defender breaks the LOS before the ball is snapped the play is blown dead while in college the defender can get back before the ball's snapped if he hasn't made contact with an offensive player.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Well I just found out today that I was accepted to be a collegian official starting this fall. Not sure if I'll get a full schedule, but I should get a few games. Mostly on the D-II or D-III level, but it is a step forwards...and to think I only started doing this 3 years ago.
Let me know if you're doing any home games for Seton Hill or their road game at West Liberty at the end of the season. That way, I'll be prepared to go easy on the officials if calls don't go SHU's way. ;)

[Logan]

Saw the news on FB...congrats man.

If you progress to D-I by 2014 or whenever PSU-RU starts, I better not see you on that field!

[Dr. Sak]

One new rule change in High School...no more horse collar tackles. The rule says that if you tackle a player using the inside collar of the jersey or shoulder pads from the back or sides it is a 15 yard penalty.

However if someone assists you in the tackle, it is not a penalty. This should be fun to distinguish.

I also love how they instituted a 2 yard restraining line where no one but the officials are allowed to be in once the ball is snapped.

[Dr. Sak]

During a free kick K has first touching on their own 45 yard line, but the ball continues to go down field and R recovers it at their own 40 yard line. R5 runs with it, fumbles and K4 recovers on the 50. What is the ruling?

[albionmoonlight]

During a free kick K has first touching on their own 45 yard line, but the ball continues to go down field and R recovers it at their own 40 yard line. R5 runs with it, fumbles and K4 recovers on the 50. What is the ruling?


I guess R team ball at the K 45 yard line. I think that the rule is that once the K team touches the ball to down it, the R team always has the option to take the ball at that point at the end of the play, and everything that happens after that is basically gravy to them.

[Poli]

One new rule change in High School...no more horse collar tackles. The rule says that if you tackle a player using the inside collar of the jersey or shoulder pads from the back or sides it is a 15 yard penalty.

However if someone assists you in the tackle, it is not a penalty. This should be fun to distinguish.

I also love how they instituted a 2 yard restraining line where no one but the officials are allowed to be in once the ball is snapped.
I actually like that as well. Thank goodness the youth refs don't enforce that. :)

[Poli]

Ball is dead where the kicking team touched it, assuming the kickoff was from the K 40 yard line.

[Dr. Sak]

I guess R team ball at the K 45 yard line. I think that the rule is that once the K team touches the ball to down it, the R team always has the option to take the ball at that point at the end of the play, and everything that happens after that is basically gravy to them.

Ball is dead where the kicking team touched it, assuming the kickoff was from the K 40 yard line.

You both are correct however Poli the play is not blown dead. The covering official will toss a bean bag at the spot of the first touching but the play continues. R can still score and advance past the point of first touching.

There is a situation where it does not go to first touching and could remain K's ball. Say all of the above happens, R fumbles, K recovers and goes for a touchdown (note: a fumble not a muff can be advanced). During R's return there is a block in the back by R. By rule the touchdown counts by K and first touching is ignored.

[Dr. Sak]

Next play:

A has the ball 2nd and 10 from B's 15 yard line. A4 advances to the B 9 yard line. After the whistle A4 throws the ball at B7, and in return B7 pushes A4. What are the penalties, down and distance of the next play?

[Poli]

Called out by the official. I'll have to retreat to the Bat Cave now. I could have swore it was a dead ball penalty. I almost added, "Shame on the official for wasting everyone's time".

[Poli]

Next play:

A has the ball 2nd and 10 from B's 15 yard line. A4 advances to the B 9 yard line. After the whistle A4 throws the ball at B7, and in return B7 pushes A4. What are the penalties, down and distance of the next play?
I believe the correct call should be dead ball, unsportsmanlike conduct on the offense. 3rd down and 19 at the 24 yard line. While B7 did push back, including the fact that A4 threw the ball at B7 means the referee did in fact see the ball thrown by A4. A4 is inciting B7.

I wouldn't penalize B7 in this situation.

[chesapeake]

I believe the correct call should be dead ball, unsportsmanlike conduct on the offense. 3rd down and 19 at the 24 yard line. While B7 did push back, including the fact that A4 threw the ball at B7 means the referee did in fact see the ball thrown by A4. A4 is inciting B7.

I wouldn't penalize B7 in this situation.

+1. I have no idea what the rule is with regard to a retaliation, but unless B7 took A4's head off, I would be inclined to just penalize A4 for throwing the ball.

[Dr. Sak]

For this play's sake let's just say it was enough to warrant a penalty. Plus if you let stuff like this go, it could get worse later in the game.

[Poli]

In that case, it's 3rd and 4 from the 9 yard line. Dead ball, unsportsmanlike penalties for both teams. If A4 is a turd and had done something earlier to warrant an unsportsmanlike penalty, I believe he's now "outta here".

[chesapeake]

Understood. I'm still sticking with Poli.

[Dr. Sak]

Well you both are incorrect.

The penalty on A gets marched off first which takes the ball back to the 24 yard line. Then the penalty on B gets marched off half the distance from the 24 to the 12 yard line. So that gives A 3rd and 7 from the 12 yard line.

[Samdari]

Well you both are incorrect.

The penalty on A gets marched off first which takes the ball back to the 24 yard line. Then the penalty on B gets marched off half the distance from the 24 to the 12 yard line. So that gives A 3rd and 7 from the 12 yard line.


Are you sure about this?

The NCAA rulebook says:

ARTICLE 5. Penalties for dead-ball fouls are administered separately and in
order of occurrence (A.R. 10-1-5-I-VIII)

[Exception: When unsportsmanlike
or dead-ball personal fouls by both teams are reported to the referee and
before any of the penalties have been completed, the fouls offset, the
number or type of down established before the fouls occurred is unaffected,
and the penalties are cancelled, except that any disqualified player must
leave the game]

This would seem to fit the exception - dead ball personal fouls by both teams reported to the referee before any of the penalties have been completed.

[Dr. Sak]

We are talking about High School. For college you are correct.

[Samdari]

We are talking about High School. For college you are correct.

Ahh, no wonder.

Are high school rules uniform across the country, or do they vary by state?

[Dr. Sak]

I believe they are uniform, all states should follow the NFHS rules.

[Poli]

I believe they are uniform, all states should follow the NFHS rules.
I believe you are now incorrect, sir. If I'm not mistaken, Texas and another state...Vermont, Massachusetts...one of those northern states...use NCAA rules.

[Dr. Sak]

Which states don't follow NFHS?

There are rules for 8 man games and such in the back of the book.

[Poli]

FWIW, I still don't penalize player B. Player A can suck it. He started it.

[Dr. Sak]

FWIW, I still don't penalize player B. Player A can suck it. He started it.

Still doesn't make it right. It's a foul. You let that stuff go and you'll have much worse to deal with later in the game.

[Poli]

Still doesn't make it right. It's a foul. You let that stuff go and you'll have much worse to deal with later in the game.
We didn't state at what point the game was. ;)

[Coffee Warlord]

I'd eject them both and force the coaches to settle the yardage by knives.

[Dr. Sak]

High School Rules only...

Question 1: A's ball on 2nd and 10 on B's 15 yard line. A12 throws a pass which A80 jumps up and catches in the air in the endzone...before coming down in the endzone B24 drives A80 back to the 2 yard line where he is downed with possession of the ball. Ruling?

Question 2: 1st and 10 for A on their own 20 yard line. A25 is running around the corner and he fumbles on the 25 and the ball rolls a) forward to the 28 yard line b) backwards to the 22 yard line and goes out of bounds in both cases. What is the spot, down, and distance?

[Poli]

1. Touchdown.

2. A. Fumbled on the 25? Stays at the 25. 2nd and 5. B. Fumbled at the 25 but loses the yards on the fumble. Ball at the 22. 2nd and 8.

[Dr. Sak]

In Question 1 A is awarded a touchdown. In college he would get the 2 yard line.

In Question 2: a) the ball would be on the 28. 2nd and 2. b) Forward progress stopped at the 25, even though the ball rolled back to the 22. Therefore it is 2nd and 5 on the 25. (I missed this one on the test on Monday. I said the same thing as you Poli.

[Poli]

I call BS.

[Dr. Sak]

Here's a 2009 Rules Online Quiz

Football Quiz #3 (http://www.afoa.info/Quizzes/footballquiz3.htm)

[albionmoonlight]

I scored 73%

[Dr. Sak]

I got 91%. I screwed up on the restrictions on Illegal forward passes and the eligibity of receivers.

[chesapeake]

I also scored 73%.

[Dr. Sak]

I had a wacky play Friday night. Punter punts the ball straight up in the air. Lands on the Line of scrimmage and goes backwards. While rolling around behind the LOS...R decides to let it go and starts jogging towards their bench. Right then K picks the ball up and runs 40 yards for a first down.

Here's another play which happened in the game and will be today's question.

A12 runs the ball, gets hit at the 1 and fumbles into the endzone where A13 and B25 possess it at the same time. What is the call?

Also, I was just notified that an NFL Head Referee will be at my game Friday night to scout me. Here's hoping I do my best!

[Logan]

Subtle way to work that last line in buddy. :)

Sick...all the best.

[Coffee Warlord]

Also, I was just notified that an NFL Head Referee will be at my game Friday night to scout me. Here's hoping I do my best!

Kick ass!

[FrogMan]

Also, I was just notified that an NFL Head Referee will be at my game Friday night to scout me. Here's hoping I do my best!

wow, good luck!

FM

[Butter]

A12 runs the ball, gets hit at the 1 and fumbles into the endzone where A13 and B25 possess it at the same time. What is the call?

Also, I was just notified that an NFL Head Referee will be at my game Friday night to scout me. Here's hoping I do my best!

Tie goes to the offense... touchdown?

And best of luck!

[johnnyshaka]

Also, I was just notified that an NFL Head Referee will be at my game Friday night to scout me. Here's hoping I do my best!

You heard it here first, Dr. Sak is the new Ed Hochuli!!!

Good luck!!

[albionmoonlight]

How about for every question we get right here, you give the NFL team of our choice one free penalty call?

As for your question, I say offense's ball at the 1.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Also, I was just notified that an NFL Head Referee will be at my game Friday night to scout me. Here's hoping I do my best!
I wish Friday wasn't my bowling league night. I would go to the game, wherever it is. Congratulations!

[Dr. Sak]

I wish Friday wasn't my bowling league night. I would go to the game, wherever it is. Congratulations!

I am at St Vincent's again this Sunday at 2pm for a JV game.

[Dr. Sak]

Dola...and thanks for all the well wishes people. I appreciate it.

[FrogMan]

interesting story that I thought you'd appreciate:
Earning Her Stripes in College Football (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/19/sports/ncaafootball/19ref.html?hp)

FM

[Dr. Sak]

Here's another play which happened in the game and will be today's question.

A12 runs the ball, gets hit at the 1 and fumbles into the endzone where A13 and B25 possess it at the same time. What is the call?


In the case of dual possession the last team that had control of the ball (in this case the offense) gets the ball. A touchdown is called.

[BishopMVP]

I had a wacky play Friday night. Punter punts the ball straight up in the air. Lands on the Line of scrimmage and goes backwards. While rolling around behind the LOS...R decides to let it go and starts jogging towards their bench. Right then K picks the ball up and runs 40 yards for a first down.Does that mean a team could kick the ball to a teammate as long as its behind the line? (and the correct men are/aren't downfield) Like a RB's about to be tackled 15 yards behind the line on a failed reverse, kicks the ball forward 10 yards where a teammate picks it up behind the LOS and runs downfield? Or if teams had to be in punt formation, that they could run a trick play where a punter intentionally "shanks" it and an upman picks up the loose ball and runs upfield?

Hope tonight went well!

[Dr. Sak]

To be allowed to legally kick the ball you have to be lined up 10 yards behind the center in a shotgun formation (punt) or 3 or less yards behind a holder that is at least 7 yards behind the center in a shotgun formation.

In the case i explained above, K could rekick it but it would've had to have been the kicker who initially kicked it.

I guess you could intentionally shank it but it would have to be behind the LOS. It would also have to hit the ground first because if you catch it straight out of the air it is kick catch interference.

[BishopMVP]

I guess you could intentionally shank it but it would have to be behind the LOS. It would also have to hit the ground first because if you catch it straight out of the air it is kick catch interference.Thanks. I know our new trick play :p

[Dr. Sak]

Here's an interesting article about a game I did on Sunday. St Vincent's a division 3 school by me...their JV team played the Naval Academy's sprint team. The restriction the Navy team had was that they did not have a player over 172 lbs.

Navy sprint football team comes up big - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/college/s_644171.html)

[Coffee Warlord]

So how'd the game go under the watchful eyes of the NFL?

[Dr. Sak]

So how'd the game go under the watchful eyes of the NFL?

Not sure. I emailed my contact ( the guy who told the NFL guy to watch me) and he hasn't gotten back to me yet. So we'll see.

My old high school principal is a scout of officials for the NFL and is suppose to be at my game this Friday.

Thanks for asking.

[Logan]

Not sure. I emailed my contact ( the guy who told the NFL guy to watch me) and he hasn't gotten back to me yet. So we'll see.

My old high school principle is a scout of officials for the NFL and is suppose to be at my game this Friday.

Thanks for asking.

High school fail!

[Dr. Sak]

It was my turn to make a rules quiz for my chapter's meeting. I uploaded the quiz, which is 15 questions and if anyone is interested in taking it, just post the answers here and I'll respond.

Again this is for High School.

Edit: PSK = Post Scrimmage Kick

[Poli]

Riddle me this:

Backward pass/lateral that is clearly, and by clearly I mean the other team is the only team remotely near the ball, about to be recovered by the other team. Inadvertent whistle blows it dead before the other team has taken possession.

When should we kill the referee and what should be the call?

[Dr. Sak]

Unfortunately inadvertent whistles are a part of the game. I had one in my 2nd varsity game and wanted to crawl in a hole.

I'm assuming he called an incomplete pass?

If not...A still retains possession at the spot where possession was lost. Which in this case was where the ball landed. There should be a bean bag there to spot the loose ball.

[Poli]

Unfortunately inadvertent whistles are a part of the game. I had one in my 2nd varsity game and wanted to crawl in a hole.

I'm assuming he called an incomplete pass?

If not...A still retains possession at the spot where possession was lost. Which in this case was where the ball landed. There should be a bean bag there to spot the loose ball.
The referee in question thought it was incomplete. It was ruled the way you stated...rather fantastically. I was "thrilled", especially as team A scored their 8th touchdown on the next play.

[Poli]

1. PSK is protected scrimmage kick? I'd say B.
2. A. Legal play.
3. The trick with this one is the high school rule. I don't know about the jersey issue. Seems like we had to have fun with tape from time to time. I'm going with B. Probably A, but I'll go with B.
4. I'm confused by the wording in the answers, but I'll go C. Dead ball penalty to be marked off at the spot of the catch most likely. If R accepts, they send the punt team back, which then gains the first down off the unsportsmanlike penalty.
5. I'll go D.
6. D again.
7. B.
8. C

You can PM the answers/response if that's better. I might have got one right.

[BishopMVP]

Are you taught to throw your flags on a penalty? (not just the bean bags to denote possession) After the Orlando Brown incident I've always felt it's unnecessary when I see a flag coming from 20 yards away land in the middle of a pile of players.

[Dr. Sak]

One rule....you should never throw your bean bag...always drop it.

I throw my flags. I don't throw them at people i throw them at spots.

[Dr. Sak]

1. PSK is protected scrimmage kick? I'd say B.
2. A. Legal play.
3. The trick with this one is the high school rule. I don't know about the jersey issue. Seems like we had to have fun with tape from time to time. I'm going with B. Probably A, but I'll go with B.
4. I'm confused by the wording in the answers, but I'll go C. Dead ball penalty to be marked off at the spot of the catch most likely. If R accepts, they send the punt team back, which then gains the first down off the unsportsmanlike penalty.
5. I'll go D.
6. D again.
7. B.
8. C

You can PM the answers/response if that's better. I might have got one right.


1. a&b
2. d&f
3. d
4. c&e
5. b&f
6. c
7. b
8. c&d
9. b&e

[Dr. Sak]

Dola..

The official start to my collegian career starts next Saturday October 3rd. I'm the head linesman as St Vincents travels to play Grove City!

[Poli]

Sorry I didn't see the second page or I'd have kept going. I don't have time to review the answers versus what I gave.

I'll be back sometime tomorrow I hope to take a look.

[Dr. Sak]

I had my second college game this past weekend as Geneva played at Thomas More (KY). There was a play that I still don't know if I (we) got it correct.

Thomas More lines up with two WR to my side and a TE. In that formation my key is the TE and he had been doing some touchy stuff, by that I mean going down and picking LB and CB's so I wanted to keep my eye on him.

Ball is snapped and I'm watching the TE...next thing I notice is the ball bouncing about 3 yards behind the LOS and I have no idea how it got there. So I look up and see the linesman running back as if it is a backwards pass. So I do the same and the defense returns it for a TD.

It's partially my fault for not looking at the QB but I was thankful that the linesman was there to help me out or it could've been a big mess. The word from the press box was that they all thought it was backwards. Hopefully when I get the film, it'll be confirmed.

[Dr. Sak]

College Rules Question:

During a try A is attempting to go for two points. A12 drops back to pass and throws to A85 who is in the endzone. B21 steps in front of the pass and gains possession on the 1 yard line. During the return B21 runs back into the endzone and gets tackled by A75 in the endzone. What is the ruling?

[BYU 14]

That's a good one. I would have to say the play is dead after he is taclked with no points awarded and the team that scored the TD kicks off as normal.

Despite the fact that you can return a missed conversion for 2, I am pretty sure you can not get a safety in the situation above and the ball would technically be considered dead at the point of forward progress.

[cartman]

Single point safety. Something similar happened in a Texas-Texas A&M game a few years back.

[Dr. Sak]

Cartman is correct.

[Dr. Sak]

Two more...College rules...

a) Fourth and 4 on B's 44. QB A18 runs the option with trailing back A33. A18 is about to get tackled on B's 42 when he pitches the ball backward. A33 catches the ball on B's 46 and immediately punts the ball from B's 45. The ball rolls out of bounds on B's 4.


b) Fourth and 4 on B's 44. QB A18 runs the option with trailing back A33. A18 is about to get tackled on B's 42 when he pitches the ball backward. A33 catches the ball on B's 46 and immediately throws the ball from B's 45. A25 catches the ball at the 50 and is immediately tackled.

[Samdari]

Two more...College rules...

a) Fourth and 4 on B's 44. QB A18 runs the option with trailing back A33. A18 is about to get tackled on B's 42 when he pitches the ball backward. A33 catches the ball on B's 46 and immediately punts the ball from B's 45. The ball rolls out of bounds on B's 4.


b) Fourth and 4 on B's 44. QB A18 runs the option with trailing back A33. A18 is about to get tackled on B's 42 when he pitches the ball backward. A33 catches the ball on B's 46 and immediately throws the ball from B's 45. A25 catches the ball at the 50 and is immediately tackled.

In both cases, the ball was advanced beyond the original LOS if I am reading these correctly, and both illegal.

I have no idea what the violation is called, as I have never seen an 'illegal punt' but I would imagine the second is an illegal forward pass.

[cartman]

For a), I believe it is like an illegal forward pass, 5 yard penalty from previous spot and loss of down

for b), it is still an illegal forward pass, since the ball has crossed the original line of scrimmage. Loss of down. edit: plus you would likely have illegal man downfield, but that would be declined to accept the illegal forward pass

[Suburban Rhythm]

Two more...College rules...

a) Fourth and 4 on B's 44. QB A18 runs the option with trailing back A33. A18 is about to get tackled on B's 42 when he pitches the ball backward. A33 catches the ball on B's 46 and immediately punts the ball from B's 45. The ball rolls out of bounds on B's 4.


b) Fourth and 4 on B's 44. QB A18 runs the option with trailing back A33. A18 is about to get tackled on B's 42 when he pitches the ball backward. A33 catches the ball on B's 46 and immediately throws the ball from B's 45. A25 catches the ball at the 50 and is immediately tackled.

Maybe i am reading part b wrong...but by B's 44, I read that as on the opponent's side of the 50, since it's a player A. Shouldn't A33 be throwing towards lower digits (down from 46) and not towards the 50?

In part A he punts from B's 45 to B's 4. In part b, he seems to be throwing back towards his side of the field?

Unless that is the trick of the question...it's not an illegal fwd pass if it's backwards :confused:

[Dr. Sak]

a) Fourth and 4 on B's 44. QB A18 runs the option with trailing back A33. A18 is about to get tackled on B's 42 when he pitches the ball backward. A33 catches the ball on B's 46 and immediately punts the ball from B's 45. The ball rolls out of bounds on B's 4.

The ball was legally kicked from behind the neutral zone. It is legal for a player to punt the ball behind the neutral zone after a ball carrier has gone beyond the neutral zone. If A33 threw a forward pass it would be an illegal forward pass since a ball carrier had previously carried the ball beyond the neutral zone. 1st and 10 from the 4 yard line.


b) Fourth and 4 on B's 44. QB A18 runs the option with trailing back A33. A18 is about to get tackled on B's 42 when he pitches the ball backward. A33 catches the ball on B's 46 and immediately throws the ball from B's 45. A25 catches the ball at the 50 and is immediately tackled.

Let's ignore the fact that I misnumbered the yard lines and I'll give you the answer for the play as I described it. :)

This play is legal since A33 throws the ball backwards from his own 45 back to the 50 where the ball carrier was tackled. It would be 1st and 10 for B on the 50 yardline

[Poli]

Misnumbered yard lines? Sounds like a ref move to me. ;)

[Dr. Sak]

Hey we aren't perfect all the time :)

[Poli]

True, but I'd like a referee to realize that signaling touchdown when the player is tackled at the five yard line is not the right call.

[Dr. Sak]

For those interested I found a blog that will list you the crews of each game and discuss calls from the previous weeks:

NFL and NCAA Referees — NCAA and NFL Referee news (http://www.football-refs.com/)

[Dr. Sak]

I got a call on Saturday morning to let me know that I was hired into the Big East Conference for officials. The head guy works in the NFL and they told me they wanted to snatch me up before some other conference did.

It does not mean I will be doing any Big East (or even Division 1-AA) games this year or next but it does mean that I will start going to scrimmages and practices at places like Pitt and WVU where I'll get filmed and critiqued. This is a pretty big break for me and if I play my cards right I'll be doing division 1 games in 4 or 5 years.

[FrogMan]

very cool, congrats on getting the call! :)

FM

[Pumpy Tudors]

I got a call on Saturday morning to let me know that I was hired into the Big East Conference for officials. The head guy works in the NFL and they told me they wanted to snatch me up before some other conference did.

It does not mean I will be doing any Big East (or even Division 1-AA) games this year or next but it does mean that I will start going to scrimmages and practices at places like Pitt and WVU where I'll get filmed and critiqued. This is a pretty big break for me and if I play my cards right I'll be doing division 1 games in 4 or 5 years.
C'mon, you bastard, you could've held out for the WVIAC!

Congrats, man. :)

[albionmoonlight]

Awesome!

[MikeVic]

Awesome, congrats!

[Celeval]

Rock on!

[Logan]

Awesome Sak, congrats!

I'll be sure to check in from time to time after switching over from our Big 10 games :).

[Dr. Sak]

Next step on my way to FBS Football...I got assigned two preseason scrimmages at West Virginia in mid-August.

Boy this is moving a lot faster than I expected. Better step up the condition routine to keep with the the big boys.

[Logan]

I cant wait to boo your punk ass in Rutgers Stadium!

[Dr. Sak]

*crosses Logan off the list of people who will get free tickets*

:)

[Poli]

I was ready to answer the next question with, "it doesn't matter, the referees will just get it wrong."

[Dr. Sak]

I was ready to answer the next question with, "it doesn't matter, the referees will just get it wrong."

Spoken like a true know it all coach :)

[Dr. Sak]

Okay I miss podcasting so I was wondering if there would be any interest in the following:

I have a live podcast on talkshoe where you guys could call in with play situations or questions about officiating and I'd answer them. If need be I could do it weekly or bi-weekly if you guys wanted calls explained and the interest was there...

One thing I won't do however is bash the officials. I will explain why a call was missed but I won't sit there and talk about how (insert official's name) is a piece of trash...unless it is me of course :)

[Suburban Rhythm]

Not a question, but a comment

I was dying during the Steelers - Broncos game last night (and not just because of Leftwich and Dixon)

Not sure who the referee was, but his explanations were hilarious.

1st drive of the game, Steelers had 3 unsportsmanlike calls. One on Keenan Lewis, who shoved Brandon Lloyd after he made a tackle on about at 8 yard pass. Explanation "Personal Foul, #23, Unsportsmanlike Conduct...giving a little something extra after the play."

Then in the 2nd half, another call on a punt. Stefan Logan on the coverage team gets flagged. Explanation: "Personal Foul, #11, Unsportsmanlike Conduct...ran out of bounds, and really didn't try get back onto the field of play not nearly soon enough"

I don't think I ever remember the ref giving such, uh, detailed, descriptions.

[albionmoonlight]

Okay I miss podcasting so I was wondering if there would be any interest in the following:

I have a live podcast on talkshoe where you guys could call in with play situations or questions about officiating and I'd answer them. If need be I could do it weekly or bi-weekly if you guys wanted calls explained and the interest was there...

One thing I won't do however is bash the officials. I will explain why a call was missed but I won't sit there and talk about how (insert official's name) is a piece of trash...unless it is me of course :)

I think that there could be interest in this. A couple of thoughts, though. First, you may want to consider whether you would leave it open to all levels of football, or limit it to HS, College, or Pro.

Second, even though you aren't going to bash officials, might an organization as anal/message-obsessed as the NFL or the NCAA consider it a risk to hire/promote an official with a podcast? You certainly know the powers that be better than I do, but the risk seemed worth noting.

[Dr. Sak]

I was going to do this anonymous...and really just for the people of the board.

[Dr. Sak]

Not a question, but a comment

I was dying during the Steelers - Broncos game last night (and not just because of Leftwich and Dixon)

Not sure who the referee was, but his explanations were hilarious.

1st drive of the game, Steelers had 3 unsportsmanlike calls. One on Keenan Lewis, who shoved Brandon Lloyd after he made a tackle on about at 8 yard pass. Explanation "Personal Foul, #23, Unsportsmanlike Conduct...giving a little something extra after the play."

Then in the 2nd half, another call on a punt. Stefan Logan on the coverage team gets flagged. Explanation: "Personal Foul, #11, Unsportsmanlike Conduct...ran out of bounds, and really didn't try get back onto the field of play not nearly soon enough"

I don't think I ever remember the ref giving such, uh, detailed, descriptions.

Wonder if that was his first game being a Referee...

Scary thought is that I am going to be a Referee in a few of my college games this year. So I'll be the one with the mic on the field.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Question on a call in Steelers-Falcons-

Tony Gonzalez makes a catch (for #1,000) in the 3rd qt. Was like 3rd and 6, 9 yard pass.

Prior to the pass, Gonzalez steps out of bounds with his left foot, goes up for the ball, comes down in bounds. Flag thrown for illegal touching.

Becomes 3rd and 11, Falcons do not convert, so no real issue.

My question is: Can Pittsburgh not decline the penalty, making it 4th and 6? Or, in order to "invalidate" the catch, must the penalty be accepted?

[Dr. Sak]

Question on a call in Steelers-Falcons-

Tony Gonzalez makes a catch (for #1,000) in the 3rd qt. Was like 3rd and 6, 9 yard pass.

Prior to the pass, Gonzalez steps out of bounds with his left foot, goes up for the ball, comes down in bounds. Flag thrown for illegal touching.

Becomes 3rd and 11, Falcons do not convert, so no real issue.

My question is: Can Pittsburgh not decline the penalty, making it 4th and 6? Or, in order to "invalidate" the catch, must the penalty be accepted?

I'm going to say that if Pittsburgh declines, then the catch counts. But you bring up an interesting point. I was always under the impression that any yardage on a penalty can be declined...

I'm going to look in the rule book and get back to you.

[chesapeake]

I don't think I ever remember the ref giving such, uh, detailed, descriptions.

Ben Dreith once described a personal foul as resulting from the violater got the other player on the ground and was 'giving him the business.' IIRC, the call came with a visual demonstration as well.