POLL: Greatest Pro Wrestler of All Time?

[DeToxRox]

Yes, we're going there. People will say "OMG THIS IS SO STUPID WRESTLING IS FAKE" and truthfully, fuck them.

With that disclaimer out of the way, who do you think the greatest wrestler ever is?

Now if we went with the best pure wrestlers, this list would look a lot different, but it needs to be based off of more then just how they work. I feel like it's a mixture of their workrate, how much money they drew, the ratings/buys they drew and a big one is how many stars did they make.

I am sure this will be hotly debated, but I am curious to see if this is more then a two person race.

[molson]

I feel like it's a mixture of their workrate, how much money they drew, the ratings/buys they drew and a big one is how many stars did they make.



Each of those categories, individually, probably has it's own top guy, but all combined, it has to be Flair.

I'd put Hogan #2. He gets some points deducted for workrate, I guess (though his wrestling style in the U.S. was 100% a commercial choice - he could have been a west coast version of Stan Hansen if he stayed in Japan in whole career, he definitely had skills).

[DeToxRox]

Each of those categories, individually, probably has it's own top guy, but all combined, it has to be Flair.

Yep. I figured Flair might win big, but I suspect a lot of Hogan love too.

[lordscarlet]

My window of wrestling watching was a couple years as a child and a couple years in college. I will probably be in the minority, but I am going to go with The Rock.

[lordscarlet]

Dola: I expect Flair and Hogan to end up on the top. I enjoyed Hogan, always hated Flair. and I expect the lognevity is a big factor in my choice being lame. :)

[molson]

The only thing that makes me question Flair is the drawing part. He certainly wasn't in Hogan's or the Rock's league there. The NWA was regional even in Flair's prime, and they just didn't do close to the kind of business that Hogan/WWF did.

[Fidatelo]

I went with The Rock as well. He was just the most fun guy to watch by a large margin.

[cartman]

Andre the Giant FTW

Hulk Hogan was Andre's bitch in Japan.

[Fidatelo]

If lordscarlet voted Rock, and I voted Rock, why does Rock only have 1 vote?

[DeToxRox]

The only thing that makes me question Flair is the drawing part. He certainly wasn't in Hogan's or the Rock's league there. The NWA was regional even in Flair's prime, and they just didn't do close to the kind of business that Hogan/WWF did.

I think though that without Flair, the NWA would've struggled to get by at all. Think of all the guys he made (which is why I think this is so big) that helped NWA turn into WCW.

It kind of went hand in hand in my opinion.

[Greyroofoo]

Mick Foley!

[Travis]

How is Bret Hart not on the list?

[DaddyTorgo]

voted Flair because I'm the biggest Nature Boy mark there is. I have like ~30 VHS tapes in my closet that are collections of flair matches/segments dating all the way back to the beginning.

His legendary match with Harley Race, all of the matches against Ricky Steamboat, the formation of the 4 Horsemen, all of his promos.

The line begins and ends with Flair. You'll even hear people like HHH and The Rock say that.

Shit...let's not forget the classic from Bret Hart's fued with Flair in WCW: "You know, you say to be the man you gotta beat the man. Well that's not true. Because Ric Flair, you're always going to be the man." -- brings tears to my eyes. And that was no work either - that was semi-shoot at worst.

[cartman]

Here's a link to another reason why I voted Andre:

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - PING: amdaily (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=1353047&postcount=1)

[DaddyTorgo]

fuck you cartman and your dola-breaking fatness! :D

and if someone can walk me through how one can burn VHS tapes onto HD's I'd be more than happy to burn all those tapes into modern-day video technology and share them with my FOFC-brethren free-of-charge.

[Bearcat729]

Mick Foley!

This would be my vote as well.

[molson]

How is Bret Hart not on the list?

I would say because his run on top of the WWF almost put the company out of business. (Not that it was his fault, but he didn't draw Hogan/Rock/Austin kind of numbers).

[DeToxRox]

Foley and Hart were great, but Foley was never at any point "the guy" in a company, and Bret Hart was very good but he was WWF Champion at a time when WWF was seriously thought to be going out of business.

Again both were great workers and I liked both, but compared to the other guys I just don't think they belong.

[SnDvls]

Voted Hogan based on the critera DeTox put out, however I like Flair better.

Workrate - advantage Flair although both men did the same key moves during every match. The "hulking up", shaking the finger, rippnig the t-shirt, post match pose down, the leg drop of doom. The beg off, the flip over the turnbuckle to the ring apron, the figure four leglock, the "back grab" after being throw from the top rope.

money drawn - Hogan big time advantage.

ratings/buys - Hogan again. WWF just knew how to do this and that played in his advantage.

Stars made - I'd say push, maybe a slight edge to Ric. Flair really only made Sting (you could agrue Lugar too) whom has lasted, but hasn't really drawn on his own ever. Hogan made lots of short term stars which he feuded with (Bundy, Mr. Wonderful, Heel Andre vs. loveable Andre ect.) and had successful programs with them.

just MHO

[molson]

Voted Hogan based on the critera DeTox put out, however I like Flair better.

Workrate - advantage Flair although both men did the same key moves during every match. The "hulking up", shaking the finger, rippnig the t-shirt, post match pose down, the leg drop of doom. The beg off, the flip over the turnbuckle to the ring apron, the figure four leglock, the "back grab" after being throw from the top rope.

money drawn - Hogan big time advantage.

ratings/buys - Hogan again. WWF just knew how to do this and that played in his advantage.

Stars made - I'd say push, maybe a slight edge to Ric. Flair really only made Sting (you could agrue Lugar too) whom has lasted, but hasn't really drawn on his own ever. Hogan made lots of short term stars which he feuded with (Bundy, Mr. Wonderful, Heel Andre vs. loveable Andre ect.) and had successful programs with them.

just MHO

Good points.

I guess the big question is how you define workrate. Is it really fair to compare Hogan's in-ring work to that of a guy in a company where scientific wrestling was more valued? Hogan's workrate was sensational for the product the WWF was selling - he had a ton of charisma in the ring, could brawl, could get the crowd into it, could even make heels look dangerous. He could have broke out his wrestling repetoire he used in Japan, but that style just didn't fit the superhero character (In the AWA DVD, Hogan talks about how Verne Gagne told him to never leave his feet - it just isn't the same character if he's rolling around with a guy on the mat).

[MikeVic]

How is Bret Hart not there? He was a major reason why I started watching more. Although I think I'll vote Rock.

[molson]

What if we went older-school.

Ed "Strangler" Lewis.

[SnDvls]

How is Bret Hart not there? He was a major reason why I started watching more. Although I think I'll vote Rock.

Bret Hart is probally my all time favorite wrestler, but in the big picture he would only beat Hogan and Flair in workrate. He couldn't draw, made no stars in his runs in both WWF/WCW and didn't elevate anyone he worked with to top level star and as has been said was apart of some of the worst buys in WWF history.

[digamma]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sublime 2]

How is Bret Hart not there? He was a major reason why I started watching more. Although I think I'll vote Rock.

I have to agree with what others have said, the Hitman is easily the only reason I watched when I was a kid. That's my main problem in this, I don't see the "big picture" I only see what made me watch for a 5-6 year span, and it's no doubt Bret Hart.

[Sun Tzu]

The Hulkster.

There's really no comparison. That's like asking who the greatest Wide Receiver in NFL history is and put anybody other than Jerry Rice as an option. It's just pointless.

[Raiders Army]

Meh. My first instinct was to vote Hogan over Flair just for what he did for the "sport". Hogan crossed over to other media (ummmm....forget the No Holds Barred movie and just remember Rocky III) and really brought wrestling into the mainstream. Flair didn't do it.

For me, mike skills are probably equally as important as the in-ring wrestling skills. After that, a close third would be making other stars and finally draw.

Mike Skills: While both are excellent on the mike, I'd have to give it to Hogan. Flair had the Horsemen while Hogan did it pretty much all on his own.

In-Ring Wrestling Skills: Flair beats Hogan by the same amount in this category that Hogan beats Flair in Mike Skills. While Flair is a better wrestler, Hogan really told a decent (albeit hackneyed by the end of his first babyface run) story in the ring.

Making other stars: In this category I'm definitely a WWF mark. Hogan ran through so many wrestlers and "passed the torch" so many times that I'd give him this category.

Draw: Push. I think Vince McMahon gets the win here and while I'm not so sure Flair would've done as well in the WWF heyday I'm equally not so sure Hogan would've done well in the NWA...however, when Flair was in the WWF his first go-around, he didn't do nearly as well as Hogan did when he flopped over to the WCW. That being said, I think Flair was mis-used at the time in the WWF...but Hogan did well in both organizations while Flair really did well in one.

All in all, Hogan's fate was conjoined with McMahon's and just as much as I'd like to say Hogan did it all himself, he didn't. So I'll vote Hogan*.

[Raiders Army]

I have to agree with what others have said, the Hitman is easily the only reason I watched when I was a kid. That's my main problem in this, I don't see the "big picture" I only see what made me watch for a 5-6 year span, and it's no doubt Bret Hart.

Depends on when you watched. You could've watched for a 5-6 year span and known Bret the Hitman Hart for hitting the Hart Attack while the Anvil had their opponent lifted.

Bret Hart wrestled some great opponents and won more than he lost, but the Hulkster's list of feuds greatly outweighs it. Also, take two Wrestlemanias in Bret Hart's "peak" for example:

Wrestlemania IX: Hart loses to Yokozuna. Mr. Fuji challenges the Hulkster who beats Yokozuna in 21 seconds.

Wrestlemania X: Hart wins the WWF World Title from Yokozuna, but also loses to his brother Owen Hart earlier that same day.

Not exactly the stuff of the "greatest of all time".

[Raiders Army]

Oh, and another thing for you Flair fans: I always liked how they described him as 16 time World Champion.

You know what that means: he lost the belt at least 15 times.

Flair's longest title reign was 793 days. Hogan's longest was 1,474 days...almost twice as long.

[Chubby]

If Andre were alive this wouldn't be a contest.

Andre's winning streak would still be going today, it wasn't some manufactured crap like Goldberg's.

[molson]

Andre's winning streak would still be going today, it wasn't some manufactured crap like Goldberg's.

Andre's winning streak was a total work. (As was the myth that "he had never been bodyslammed"). He lost plenty before WM III.

Still, it's tough to compare him in a poll like this vs. guys who actually worked for promotions. Andre was pretty much a career roving special attraction until the very end.

[Sun Tzu]

Anybody want a peanut?

[Maple Leafs]

How is Bret Hart not on the list?
I'm assuming the question was "Who is the greatest all-time pro wrestler, besides Bret Hart"?

Otherwise, why would you even need a poll?

[Fidatelo]

I'll go on record that I never liked Bret Hart.

[DaddyTorgo]

Meh. My first instinct was to vote Hogan over Flair just for what he did for the "sport". Hogan crossed over to other media (ummmm....forget the No Holds Barred movie and just remember Rocky III) and really brought wrestling into the mainstream. Flair didn't do it.

For me, mike skills are probably equally as important as the in-ring wrestling skills. After that, a close third would be making other stars and finally draw.

Mike Skills: While both are excellent on the mike, I'd have to give it to Hogan. Flair had the Horsemen while Hogan did it pretty much all on his own.

In-Ring Wrestling Skills: Flair beats Hogan by the same amount in this category that Hogan beats Flair in Mike Skills. While Flair is a better wrestler, Hogan really told a decent (albeit hackneyed by the end of his first babyface run) story in the ring.

Making other stars: In this category I'm definitely a WWF mark. Hogan ran through so many wrestlers and "passed the torch" so many times that I'd give him this category.

Draw: Push. I think Vince McMahon gets the win here and while I'm not so sure Flair would've done as well in the WWF heyday I'm equally not so sure Hogan would've done well in the NWA...however, when Flair was in the WWF his first go-around, he didn't do nearly as well as Hogan did when he flopped over to the WCW. That being said, I think Flair was mis-used at the time in the WWF...but Hogan did well in both organizations while Flair really did well in one.

All in all, Hogan's fate was conjoined with McMahon's and just as much as I'd like to say Hogan did it all himself, he didn't. So I'll vote Hogan*.

I don't get how Hogan beats Flair in mic skills...I really don't. But it's your opinion.

At least you admit your WWF-markness - my problem with Hogan is that he never really "passed the torch" and made a lasting star. He always squashed down the people whom he had elevated to face him to keep himself on top. Flair on the other hand elevated other wrestlers all over the country (Ricky Steamboat, Sting, etc.), and had zero problem putting other wrestlers over to make them.

[saldana]

i went with the rock...hogan was a lousy worker in the ring (even he admits it) and i dont ever remember taking a beat down...flair and the rock occasionally ended up on the down side of a work, but hogan was so much of an egomaniac that he never wanted to do the job. flair and rock both put guys over alot more often than hogan.

i would have liked to see kurt angle on the list, but given the choices, no one i have ever seen gets the pop that Rock did when he came out.

[digamma]

I'm guessing this poll is somewhat regionally driven and perhaps age wise as well. My suspicion is the Southeastern contingent (largely because of the NWA and TBS) is pretty solidly in the Flair camp (as I certainly am).

[Ragone]

Basically.. without Hogan/Flair/Race.. nobody would be watching wrestling on tv today.. so voting for anyone other then them is a injustice

[CU Tiger]

Anyone who votes anything other than Flair I ask that you at least read this:
A TRIBUTE TO THE "NATURE BOY" RIC FLAIR: WOOOOOO! | (http://www.rfgolds.com/ricflairisthebestever.htm)

And for who put who over...
Flair's list:
Ricky Steamboat (went on to be WWF's #1 draw for about 18months after flair made him)
Harley Race (the original king crown and robe)
Lex Luger
Sting
Dusty Rhodes (some credit due just for carrying his fat ass)
Randy Savage (before he was thee macho man he was flair's biggest threat)
Roddy Piper
Greg Valentine
Ted Dibiase (before he was ever the million dollar man)
Magnum TA
Hell he even made ricky morton of the rock and roll express seem like a threat for a summer.

In my opinon, anyone voting Hogan probably doesnt realize that half of WWFs talent was groomed by Flair.

And BTW Work rate...REALLY?!?!! Flair did 2 dozen headliners for every interview hogan gave.....

To me Hogan is definitely flashier, and more famous and maybe even a bigger star...but Flair was better and more important

[Scarecrow]

The Best There Was, The Best There Is, The Best There Ever Will Be!


Actually, in addition to Bret Hart missing, Kerry Von Erich and Jerry Lawler should be worth a mention.

EDIT: I can't believe I forgot about Dusty Rhodes.

[Noop]

We should have a draft like we did with the history one, although much smaller. I am torn between The Rock or Steve Austin, The Rock was money on the promo and sold a ton of merch same as Stone Cold come to think of it... Then again there is Ric Flair who I thought as a youth was an old wrestler but he was money as a bad guy. Hulk Hogan... please.

The Rock barely.

[DanGarion]

Dude where is Buff Bagwell????

[molson]

I don't think Bagwell deserves a mention here, but his hat certainly does.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Pro wrestler? Flair, and there isn't even a runner up.

Sports Entertainer, forerunner division? I'll give you Hogan on that one.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Dude where is Buff Bagwell????

My first guess would be jail.
My second guess would be working for a second rate indy somewhere.

[JediKooter]

Jake The Snake and the DDT!!!

[DaddyTorgo]

Anyone who votes anything other than Flair I ask that you at least read this:
A TRIBUTE TO THE "NATURE BOY" RIC FLAIR: WOOOOOO! | (http://www.rfgolds.com/ricflairisthebestever.htm)

And for who put who over...
Flair's list:
Ricky Steamboat (went on to be WWF's #1 draw for about 18months after flair made him)
Harley Race (the original king crown and robe)
Lex Luger
Sting
Dusty Rhodes (some credit due just for carrying his fat ass)
Randy Savage (before he was thee macho man he was flair's biggest threat)
Roddy Piper
Greg Valentine
Ted Dibiase (before he was ever the million dollar man)
Magnum TA
Hell he even made ricky morton of the rock and roll express seem like a threat for a summer.

In my opinon, anyone voting Hogan probably doesnt realize that half of WWFs talent was groomed by Flair.

And BTW Work rate...REALLY?!?!! Flair did 2 dozen headliners for every interview hogan gave.....

To me Hogan is definitely flashier, and more famous and maybe even a bigger star...but Flair was better and more important

Flair also wrestled many more matches over his career - night after night headlining after much more travel than Hogan.

[Maple Leafs]

Bret Hart ...made no stars in his runs in both WWF/WCW and didn't elevate anyone he worked with to top level star
I don't know, that bald guy from Texas that he spent the last year of his WWE run building up went on to do OK.

[DaddyTorgo]

I don't know, that bald guy from Texas that he spent the last year of his WWE run building up went on to do OK.

this is very true

[graygoose12]

Ultimate Warrior!

[Uncle Briggs]

Jake The Snake and the DDT!!!

A guy I know runs a local wrestling federation. His shows are mostly fundraisers. One show 1-2 years ago he hired Jake Roberts as his main event (but not the snake; that was $300 more). He said one of the first things Jake said when he picked him up at the airport was asking where he could get cocaine. Apparently he's never got that monkey off his back. Kind of made me sad to hear that story.

[EagleFan]

What? No Brooklyn Brawler? ;)

[Raiders Army]

I don't get how Hogan beats Flair in mic skills...I really don't. But it's your opinion.

At least you admit your WWF-markness - my problem with Hogan is that he never really "passed the torch" and made a lasting star. He always squashed down the people whom he had elevated to face him to keep himself on top. Flair on the other hand elevated other wrestlers all over the country (Ricky Steamboat, Sting, etc.), and had zero problem putting other wrestlers over to make them.

Well, c'mon. It's not like it's Hogan's fault the Ultimate Warrior crashed and burned. It's not his fault that the Rock's movie career took off (much better than his). It is true though, that he passed the torch, ummmmmmm...probably too many times and that as others have said about his ringwork is due to his ego.

Who was the better pro wrestler in WCW in the late nineties when both Flair and Hogan were there? The Outsiders were a good angle until Hogan turned them into a great angle and the nWo is what put WCW over the WWF. What was Flair doing at the time? (I don't ask that rhetorically....I can't seem to remember.)

Hogan was inarguably the face of the 80s WWF and arguably the face of the 90s WCW.

I also make the disclaimer that I am not a fan of Hogan but I can respect what he did for the industry. If you can take into account microphone skills as a factor for being the greatest Pro Wrestler of all time, then I think you should also factor what the wrestler did for the industry as well.

For the record, my favorite wrestlers were (in no particular order): Bret Hart, Jake the Snake, Booker T (and Stevie Ray), Curt Hennig (loved his "absolutely Perfect" spots), and the Rock.

[Schmidty]

The Brute Squad for me.

[DeToxRox]

Remember though about Hulk Hogan, he and his creative control is basically what killed WCW.

[DaddyTorgo]

Remember though about Hulk Hogan, he and his creative control is basically what killed WCW.

yep. he's gotta take the blame for that as well

[Schmidty]

Remember though about Hulk Hogan, he and his creative control is basically what killed WCW.

Nope. It was the fact that I was poor and couldn't afford cable from 2000-2001.

[molson]

Some fans seem to be obsessed with the merits of "putting guys over" but that's just one way to run a promotion. Something tells me Hogan and the WWF wouldn't have made as much money as they did if Hogan traded the belt 10 times with Paul Orndorff and King Kong Bundy.

[molson]

Remember though about Hulk Hogan, he and his creative control is basically what killed WCW.

That's a little harsh. I blame the fact that they had literally hundreds of wrestlers on the roster (most completely unused), and tied themselves up in guaranteed contracts that weren't possibly sustainable even if business stayed steady.

[DeToxRox]

That's a little harsh. I blame the fact that they had literally hundreds of wrestlers on the roster (most completely unused), and tied themselves up in guaranteed contracts that weren't possibly sustainable even if business stayed steady.

Well, from reading the Death of WCW, basically Hogan has control over anything that could effect his character so Bischoff ran everything by him, and Hulk ixnayed whatever he wanted.

He and Bisch are both equally culpable, but he made sure he looked good no matter what, and refused to work with people who didn't make big money.

Makes it hard to get guys in the Main Event.

[Izulde]

For me (though I haven't watched wrestling since the 80s and even then it was only sporadic), it comes down to this question:

Does wrestling become a national phenomenon without Hulk Hogan?

I say no and to me, that answers it.

[cartman]

Too bad the Von Erich's had the tendency to be suicidal, otherwise one of them could easily have ascended to the throne.

[SnDvls]

I don't know, that bald guy from Texas that he spent the last year of his WWE run building up went on to do OK.

SCSA started in June 1996 with Austin 3:16, then flipping the bird to McMahon. he didn't face Bret until Nov 1996. Also Bret lost to Austin 1 time and by DQ even. Bret didn't make Austin that is for sure.

[SnDvls]

Well, from reading the Death of WCW, basically Hogan has control over anything that could effect his character so Bischoff ran everything by him, and Hulk ixnayed whatever he wanted.

He and Bisch are both equally culpable, but he made sure he looked good no matter what, and refused to work with people who didn't make big money.

Makes it hard to get guys in the Main Event.

what both of you say is true also the fact that Master P, KISS and many others got tons of money thrown at them to have little to no draw back to WCW.

[DaddyTorgo]

what both of you say is true also the fact that Master P, KISS and many others got tons of money thrown at them to have little to no draw back to WCW.

hey - Master P and the No Limit Soldiers and the KISS Demon were fucking draw-tastic!!
:D

[DrAFTjunkie]

Anyone who votes anything other than Flair I ask that you at least read this:
A TRIBUTE TO THE "NATURE BOY" RIC FLAIR: WOOOOOO! | (http://www.rfgolds.com/ricflairisthebestever.htm)

And for who put who over...
Flair's list:
Ricky Steamboat (went on to be WWF's #1 draw for about 18months after flair made him)
Harley Race (the original king crown and robe)
Lex Luger
Sting
Dusty Rhodes (some credit due just for carrying his fat ass)
Randy Savage (before he was thee macho man he was flair's biggest threat)
Roddy Piper
Greg Valentine
Ted Dibiase (before he was ever the million dollar man)
Magnum TA
Hell he even made ricky morton of the rock and roll express seem like a threat for a summer.

In my opinon, anyone voting Hogan probably doesnt realize that half of WWFs talent was groomed by Flair.

And BTW Work rate...REALLY?!?!! Flair did 2 dozen headliners for every interview hogan gave.....

To me Hogan is definitely flashier, and more famous and maybe even a bigger star...but Flair was better and more important

Agree with you on most points, but Dusty Rhodes' name included in the "put over" list is pure blasphemy. If Rhodes is continuously booking himself to lose to Flair, then who's putting over who? Meh...maybe I'm just biased. Dusty was my favorite as a kid. I was into horror movies and what not and I liked my wrestling bloody. You could always count on Dusty for that. Even if he wasn't wrestling that week, you just knew he was going to get attacked by 4 or 5 guys and beaten bloody during an interview. And what an interview it would be. He had GREAT mic, was quick and agile for his size, sold a bump very convincingly and in his prime, had the ability to electrify just as much as Hogan did...he just never had the market.

And as for Ric Flair carrying Dusty's fat ass, I don't know what to say. Well...there a plenty of things I'd like to say, but I need to go to bed. Let me just ask this: what matches were you watching?

[Neon_Chaos]

Bret should be on that list.

If anything else, Bret Hart made a star out of Steve Austin, thanks to their bitter 8-month feud in '96-'97.

[sterlingice]

Here's a link to another reason why I voted Andre:

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - PING: amdaily (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=1353047&postcount=1)

I had never read any of that before. It's a cross between completely hilarious and tragic.

SI

[sterlingice]

Stop that rhyming now, I mean it.

Anybody want a peanut?

SI

[DeToxRox]

Bret should be on that list.

If anything else, Bret Hart made a star out of Steve Austin, thanks to their bitter 8-month feud in '96-'97.

He had a big part but Vince McMahon as a heel is what made Austin huge. Bret getting screwed is the best thing he gave back to wrestling.

[Maple Leafs]

SCSA started in June 1996 with Austin 3:16, then flipping the bird to McMahon. he didn't face Bret until Nov 1996. Also Bret lost to Austin 1 time and by DQ even. Bret didn't make Austin that is for sure.
Nobody "made" Austin entirely. But he was still a mid-carder when the Hart feud started. Their first match was played as if Austin lost on a rookie mistake but proved he could hang with the best.

The WM match was possibly the greatest double-turn in history, and Hart absolutely deserved credit for how perfectly it all came together. Imagine HHH or HBK letting a guy get over that much against them -- think they would have found a way to subtley undermine the whole thing? Putting a guy over isn't about wins or losses, and Hart put Austin over huge in that match (back then, having a guy not submit to a top star's finishing move was pretty much unheard of).

The feud afterwards, that started as Austin/Hart and evolved into the Canada/USA thing, absolutely helped cement Austin. Hart may not have jobbed to him in a match, but he made him long strong all summer long, including the famous ambulance angle on a Raw show that was entirely built around putting Austin over.

Austin would have been successful to some degree no matter what, but having a heel Hart show up every week all summer long to lecture US fans about how they shouldn't be cheering for Austin was a huge piece of him getting over as well as he did. Hart had the psychology of it nailed.

There's a reason they had Austin induct Hart into the HOF. He may not have made him, but you'd have a hard time finding a better example of an established star letting a newcomer get over at his expense.

[Capital]

Maple, this was Bret Hart at his best. I think this was Bret's best run in wrestling (although the long story with HBK is close). This bought Austin to the main event level that then brought Austin to unbelievable heights thanks to the heel McMahon character.

[lordscarlet]

If lordscarlet voted Rock, and I voted Rock, why does Rock only have 1 vote?

I'm late responding, but I forgot to actually vote. :)

[lordscarlet]

dola: Actually, when I posted I don't think there was a poll yet.

[lordscarlet]

I'll go on record that I never liked Bret Hart.

I never liked Ric Flair.

i went with the rock...hogan was a lousy worker in the ring (even he admits it) and i dont ever remember taking a beat down...flair and the rock occasionally ended up on the down side of a work, but hogan was so much of an egomaniac that he never wanted to do the job. flair and rock both put guys over alot more often than hogan.

i would have liked to see kurt angle on the list, but given the choices, no one i have ever seen gets the pop that Rock did when he came out.

The rock was the most electrifying man in sports entertainment. :) Seriously. He was, in my opinion, the Hulk Hogan of his time. No one fired the crowd up like The Rock. I think he was a more polished version of the 80s Hogan.

[General Mike]

Now if we went with the best pure wrestlers, this list would look a lot different, but it needs to be based off of more then just how they work. I feel like it's a mixture of their workrate, how much money they drew, the ratings/buys they drew and a big one is how many stars did they make.

I am sure this will be hotly debated, but I am curious to see if this is more then a two person race.

Well, if you went with biggest draw its Hogan, then Austin and Rock. If you go as far as worker, its Flair, Race and then HHH, but Austin was really good until his first neck injury. I'd like to say Austin is the best ever, but I just don't think he had enough years on top to be number one all time.

I ended up going with Flair tho.

[BYU 14]

Hogan should not even be in this poll if you are talking about the "best" wrestler. There is no doubt he is the biggest draw, but on the mic and in the ring it is Flair hands down. Hogan was a one trick pony, get down early, hulk up, beat down, leg drop, pin.

Flair could work and carry most anyone to a great match.

Shawn Michaels and Terry Funk probably deserve more recognition as workers than half the people in the poll as well.

[condors]

there was mention of different booking style of Flair losing the title and Hogan not. Flair not only gave the impression he could lose the title but he would. Hogan i never thought he was going to lose the title.

I would have loved for a legit tough guy like tank abbot/frank shammrock no sell hogan's offense and see what would have happened. Flair had everyone and his brother no sell his offense. Yet he could still be a threat.

I would go see both NWA/WCW shows and WWF/WWE (and lucky for me being in philly ECW) there is little doubt in my mind that Hogan had a couple runs where he was off the charts (his start as wwf champ and when he became hollywood hogan) popularity wise but Flair night after night and year after year. There were many stretches of "Hogan Era" that he was fighting forgetable monster#63 in a match that everyone and his "brutha" had seen many times before and knew it was only a matter of time for the legdrop of doom.

As far as Hogan mic skills check out some of Billy "Superstar" Graham's interviews and you will see the same catch phrases. An actual quote from the pre hogan era "what you going to do when the pythons squeeze and squeeze the life out of you" You could say Nature Boy Ric Flair borrowed from other guys so its kinda mute. Mick Foley on the other hand would take whatever is going on and give a speech that would give you goosebumps. From "saving Mikey Whipwreck", Misses Foley's little boy has issues in the boiler room (leaving the mankind persona), and some of the best matches I have ever seen (him and Terry Funk in crazy matches in Japan, Hell in the Cell etc). I may just be a Foley mark but the fact i remember watching him work the "little" ECW crowd into a frenzy and putting himself in harms way for peanuts I don't think Flair or Hogan would have been able but more importantly would have wanted to. Mick is a best selling author and he been in movies and done all kinds of things and the fact he did it with little pay or recongnition for years post his WCW run. Lots of wrestlers could whip the "verbal" ECW fans into a frenzy but Mick could make them go silent, get happy, get mad and almost cry all in less than 10 minutes.

tldr version Hogan i didn't get, Flair was awsome, Mick Foley is god

[Sgran]

To hell with all this boring "objective" criteria. The funnest wrestlers were Hot Rod and the Macho Man. Yaaaaaaaaa

[Oilers9911]

Bret Hart. No doubt