Cowboys trade for DET Roy Williams [Archive] - Front Office Football Central

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sachmo71

10-14-2008, 03:09 PM

Not confirmed on ESPN yet, but

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/10/14/lions-trade-roy-williams-to-cowboys/

LIONS TRADE ROY WILLIAMS TO COWBOYS
Posted by Michael David Smith on October 14, 2008, 4:03 p.m. EDT

The Detroit Lions have traded wide receiver Roy Williams to the Dallas Cowboys.

Adam Schefter of NFL Network reports that the trade was made today, just before the NFL trade deadline.

It is not clear exactly what compensation the Lions got from the Cowboys, but Schefter reported that Detroit received “at least one first-round pick.”

Williams, who played his high school football for the Permian Panthers and his college football for the Texas Longhorns, will return to his home state. He becomes a free agent at the end of this season.

DeToxRox

10-14-2008, 03:12 PM

Praise jesus!

stevew

10-14-2008, 03:14 PM

SWEET-

He was on waivers on my fantasy league and I picked him up. Hopefully he's a better WR with Tony Simpson passing to him.

GrantDawg

10-14-2008, 03:20 PM

Ummmm....a first rounder? Really?

sachmo71

10-14-2008, 03:22 PM

Someone reported that it was two second round picks.

cartman

10-14-2008, 03:22 PM

A conditional 1st rounder from what I've seen.

GrantDawg

10-14-2008, 03:23 PM

Someone reported that it was two second round picks.

Steep, but better.

Pyser

10-14-2008, 03:24 PM

a 1st, 3rd and 6th is the deal on nfl.com

GrantDawg

10-14-2008, 03:24 PM

Can he play corner? Because Pac-man is suspended for at least four games.

TLK

10-14-2008, 03:26 PM

a 1st, 3rd and 6th is the deal on nfl.com

haha... no doubt who won this one.

GrantDawg

10-14-2008, 03:26 PM

BTW, that suspension makes Pac-man's trade a little sweeter for Dallas. They were going to have to give up a 6th rounder next year, but now they gain a fifth rounder from the Titans.

GrantDawg

10-14-2008, 03:32 PM

a 1st, 3rd and 6th is the deal on nfl.com

He is the only one reporting that. Cowboy fans better pray that's wrong.

Honolulu_Blue

10-14-2008, 03:34 PM

Hrmmm...

I really liked Roy Williams. I think he's a good player. He's inconsistent at times and a bit injury prone, but he's capable of making great plays. I don't consider him a prima donna or cancer in the locker room or anything like that. He's always seemed like a solid dude. He's definitely no T.O.

That said, the Lions are awful. They aren't doing anything this year. Kitna was just put on IR. They weren't going to do anything this year and they couldn't afford to franchise Roy Williams or even pay him market value. That would just be too much money tied up in the WR position given Calvin Johnson's contract.

As a result of the trade, the Lions have a few more picks to help begin to rebuild (again). Hopefully they will hire someone who can actually judge talent and make use of these additional draft picks. Under the old regime, I would have no faith.

This also makes the season a little more interesting now. I will be rooting (more so than normal) for the Cowboys to lose. I finally have an incentive, outside of fantasy football, to watch some NFL games.

So, over the next several weeks, I will be rooting for these teams in order:

Rams
Bucaneers
G-Men
Redskins
49ers
Seahawks
Steelers
G-Men
Ravens
Eagles

GO THOSE TEAMS!!

miked

10-14-2008, 03:35 PM

Poor Gonzalez. Chiefs wanted how many picks for him?

GrantDawg

10-14-2008, 03:36 PM

cartman

10-14-2008, 03:38 PM

That's nowhere near as bad as the two #1s they gave up a few years back to get Joey Galloway.

GrantDawg

10-14-2008, 03:39 PM

That's nowhere near as bad as the two #1s they gave up a few years back to get Joey Galloway.

Yeah, that's painful. I can only think of maybe two players worth two first round picks.

Crapshoot

10-14-2008, 03:41 PM

Given the hit rate of 1st round picks, I'm not sure its such a bad deal. I think draft picks tend to be overvalued in the NFL, unless your success rate is high enough to justify them (ie, a 1st for the Pats or the Giants is worth more than one for the .... Lions). :D

Greyroofoo

10-14-2008, 04:01 PM

I think the Lions just want to see what it's like drafting from the bottom of the 1st round for once.

stevew

10-14-2008, 04:08 PM

Yeah, that's painful. I can only think of maybe two players worth two first round picks.

It depends. Most of the players worth 2-#1s would be essentially priceless and would never be traded anyways.

Coffee Warlord

10-14-2008, 04:11 PM

God, him and TO on the same team? After seeing Roy act the total bitch vs the Bears a couple weeks ago, this should be amusing.

And Dallas overpaid. A. Lot.

Raiders Army

10-14-2008, 04:16 PM

So what's going on his jersey?

ORoy Williams and the other one is going to be DRoy Williams?

stevew

10-14-2008, 04:17 PM

Dallas can franchise him after the season, or sign him to a new deal. I think they will probably be able to get a first out of him if they franchise + trade.

Boldin and Williams will be the top two available WR's this offseason.

Most likely Dallas will rent him for the rest of the season for a 6th, and trade him for a mid 20s #1, which will likely be around a 3rd in value better than their first.

And Dallas still has another 3rd I believe, as they snagged the Browns' one.

Honolulu_Blue

10-14-2008, 04:18 PM

You know, with Roy Williams gone this does put the Lions in a perfect position to draft another WR.

They have a need...

stevew

10-14-2008, 04:18 PM

So what's going on his jersey?

ORoy Williams and the other one is going to be DRoy Williams?

Actually they changed it so now you don't have to have initials. Not sure if it was to avoid a T Brady #12 jersey from being made(because they added kyle brady), although that seemed like a logical explanation.

lordscarlet

10-14-2008, 04:27 PM

I want to see T.O. get pissed at Roy Williams getting the ball 5+ times per game. That's my hope.

kserra

10-14-2008, 04:27 PM

You know, with Roy Williams gone this does put the Lions in a perfect position to draft another WR.

They have a need...

Ha... my head just exploded with that thought...

Any other Lions fan now hitting every draft site there is? Anyone got a really good one?

It's great to be a Lions and Wolverines fan right now...

Go Wings!

GrantDawg

10-14-2008, 04:29 PM

Capital

10-14-2008, 04:31 PM

Pyser

10-14-2008, 04:32 PM

GrantDawg

10-14-2008, 04:37 PM

The Cowboys have decent #2 and #3 receivers with Crayton and Austin. I'm surprised they made this move and gave up a #1 and #3 draft choice. Plus, they are going to have to pay him big money to keep him. That could lead to a salary cap crunch.

With the money they gave TO, it will be a lot of cabbage tied up in one position. But hey, they won't have to pay a couple of draft picks next year. :D

MikeVic

10-14-2008, 04:37 PM

Raiders Army

10-14-2008, 04:40 PM

The Cowboys have decent #2 and #3 receivers with Crayton and Austin. I'm surprised they made this move and gave up a #1 and #3 draft choice. Plus, they are going to have to pay him big money to keep him. That could lead to a salary cap crunch.

This of course is assuming there will be a salary cap.

stevew

10-14-2008, 04:47 PM

thats perfect logic...if the nfl operated like a fof mp league

We're just ahead of the trend in FOFMP. Look at all the player for pick trades this offseason. Quite a few more than I can ever remember seeing in the past.

Javon Walker was traded for the #37 pick a few years back, at worst i'd say they gat that much for Williams if they elect to flip him. And then it becomes more of a 3rd, 6th, and 10 pick downgrade on their #1 this year.

And even less if it gets them far in the playoffs. Dallas hasn't won a playoff game since like 96 I believe.

Subby

10-14-2008, 04:50 PM

The path to guaranteed winning it all is a killer qb and two stud wr. Cowboys are set.

Errr..wait...I'm thinking of FOF.

Lathum

10-14-2008, 04:52 PM

They basicly traded 3 picks next year when they already have a WR who bitches about not getting the ball enough. I love it..

Pyser

10-14-2008, 04:52 PM

We're just ahead of the trend in FOFMP. Look at all the player for pick trades this offseason. Quite a few more than I can ever remember seeing in the past.

Javon Walker was traded for the #37 pick a few years back, at worst i'd say they gat that much for Williams if they elect to flip him. And then it becomes more of a 3rd, 6th, and 10 pick downgrade on their #1 this year.

And even less if it gets them far in the playoffs. Dallas hasn't won a playoff game since like 96 I believe.

like i said, your logic is fine...its just never been done like that in the nfl.

im desperately trying to wrack my brain, to come up with the last player who a team "flipped" (acquired then turned for a profit)

all other teams would see is, hmm, in the last 10 games hes now played for 3 teams. awesome.

sachmo71

10-14-2008, 04:59 PM

Rumor is that Jerry is already working on signing him to a longer deal. We shall see.

On the overpaying...the 1st hurts, but if he helps get the cowboys over the hump they seem to have run into, it will be worth it. I'm not sure how teams will be able to cover him, witten and owens, so somebody will benefit.

Subby

10-14-2008, 05:05 PM

Cowboys are loaded with talent. Missing a first rounder is not going to kill them.

bosshogg23

10-14-2008, 05:09 PM

Link (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/101508dnspocowboyswilliams.111b05472.html)

Supposedly agreed to a 5 year deal already.

sachmo71

10-14-2008, 05:10 PM

Jerry said he signed Williams to a 5 year deal. Not sure what the terms were.

DeToxRox

10-14-2008, 05:12 PM

Now all Dallas needs are 9 defensive players, and this deal makes sense for them.

rjolley

10-14-2008, 05:17 PM

They really did need a solid #2 WR, and Williams will fit that bill. It could be like Harrison/Wayne in Indy.

2 bad things about the trade:

1. It makes the Cowboys better. That, in itself, sucks.
b. It'll take away passes from Crayton and carries from Barber and Jones, who I have on various fantasy teams.

DeToxRox

10-14-2008, 05:20 PM

Again, Roy in Dallas makes sense, but the teams problem isn't scoring, it's stopping people from scoring.

cmp

10-14-2008, 05:21 PM

Great trade. Much more than I thought Detroit would get for him.

M GO BLUE!!!

10-14-2008, 05:29 PM

I agree. My bet is that there was a bit of a bidding war between Dallas & Philly.

So far, so good P.M.

Raiders Army

10-14-2008, 06:14 PM

The more I think about it, the more I like the trade for Dallas. They get a quality, proven, young receiver and they give up practically nothing when you take a look at the salary cap situation.

Instead of paying money for unproven rookies, they can spend that money on free agents who will certainly test the market in an uncapped year. Dallas can bring in the money compared to other teams. At the very least, if it's there's still a salary cap in a couple years, they go for broke this year and next trying to win a Super Bowl.

Big Fo

10-14-2008, 07:56 PM

Well played Detroit. I wonder what they'd have got with Millen negotiating.

stevew

10-14-2008, 07:59 PM

The raiders have won at least a couple playoff games since Dallas has. That's hilarious

fantom1979

10-14-2008, 08:09 PM

Schmidty

10-14-2008, 09:12 PM

I just heard about this trade. I am ecstatic for the Lions.

The Cowboys just got ripped off royally. He's got talent physically, but aside from the occasional spectacular catch, he can't catch the routine ball.

Now that Millen's not there, the extra picks will hopefully mean something.

JeeberD

10-14-2008, 09:44 PM

Wait...what? Why the fuck didn't I hear about this on the radio earlier?!?

That said, I think I'm good with this deal if Roy v2 can stay healthy.

Lathum

10-14-2008, 09:46 PM

The top eight playoff finishers from the previous season would be allowed to sign free agents only at the rate at which they lose them
.

parity at its best

thealmighty

10-15-2008, 12:28 AM

Again, Roy in Dallas makes sense, but the teams problem isn't scoring, it's stopping people from scoring.

Actually, I would say their problem is that they are a spoiled, undisciplined bunch of whiners (yes, I am still a Cowboys fan, but let's get real here).

stevew

10-15-2008, 12:55 AM

Not sure how much Dallas would benefit from a salary cap removal (at least in 2010). All of these conditions kick in if 2010 is not capped:

• The top eight playoff finishers from the previous season would be allowed to sign free agents only at the rate at which they lose them.
• Players would need six NFL seasons to be eligible for free agency, rather than four.
• Each team would be allowed to restrict two eligible free agents with "franchise" or "transition" player tags, rather than one.

I would assume that they will just start trading for really good players, and then overpay them. Cause there will be no repurcussions whatsoever, other than cash. And have you seen the price of PSL's at the new Dallas stadium?

Plus, who really needs a draft when you can just keep players around as long as you want. Now you basically draft for impact or need, or both, because you know you can't afford everyone. Not so much, anymore.

Mr. Olympia

10-15-2008, 02:07 AM

I think this is a great trade for Dallas as it will allow them to play hardball with T.O.

Now they can afford to suspend him or sit him if his bad behavior keeps up. This could signal the end of T.O.'s time in Dallas.

Samdari

10-15-2008, 08:00 AM

Alright, reading it from the Dallas paper now.

Lions: Roy Williams, and a 2009 7th Rounder

Cowboys: 1st, 3rd, and 6th for 2009

Wow. I don't think Matt Millen would have made this deal......for the Cowboys. :)

That's less than the price of moving from where the Cowboys expect to pick in this years draft (24+) to the 1.7 pick, which is where Williams was picked. Considering the "hit" rate of first round WRs, and the fact that you know Roy Williams is surely a "hit" I don't think its that bad a deal.

It is odd though, this seems like an offseason 2009 deal, made in the middle of the 2008 season.

Samdari

10-15-2008, 08:02 AM

aside from the occasional spectacular catch, he can't catch the routine ball.

The best QB he has ever played with was Jon Kitna. When, exactly, has he had routine balls thrown at him?

He has dropped fewer catchable balls than TO, that's for sure.

molson

10-15-2008, 08:05 AM

Draft picks are overrated in the NFL.

Look at the history of late 1st-rounders - the odds of getting a Roy Williams type player are remote. A 3rd and a 6th are filler, with an outside chance of getting something serviceable.

bulletsponge

10-15-2008, 08:10 AM

agreed with Molson. 2 years from now the lions will be cursing this trade, because we all know thet will piss away the picks and Roy will become a real good reciever now that hes been unbanished

DaddyTorgo

10-15-2008, 08:17 AM

having been playing FOF lately I saw this thread title as "Cowboys trade for DE T Roy Williams" and it took me clicking on the thread to realize what was up. true story

Anthony

10-15-2008, 08:29 AM

Roy Williams in Dallas is overkill. what team with 2 Pro Bowl calibre WRs has ever won a Super Bowl in the last 10 years? I can think of only one off the top of my head (Colts: Harrison and Wayne). You really need one standout WR and a bunch of guys who can catch the ball when thrown to. You need that one guy everyone knows you're going to target and yet you still throw to him and yet he still catches it. there are other teams where Williams would've made a bigger impact - Jaguars and Falcons namely. what more is Williams gonna do on the Dallas with a clear #1 in front of him that he couldn't do in Detroit with Calvin Johnson the obvious man on that team?

flere-imsaho

10-15-2008, 08:46 AM

This is great news for my fantasy team, where I just got Williams as filler in a much bigger trade. Bonus!

The downside is I already had Crayton as one of my backup WRs on this team, so I think he'll be hitting the waiver wires real soon now.... :D

Kodos

10-15-2008, 08:48 AM

M GO BLUE!!!

10-15-2008, 08:52 AM

Please let he Cowboys implode........ 7-9 would make this trade look a bit better!

Anthony

10-15-2008, 09:02 AM

Erm. The Rams?

all right, 2 teams in 10 years. point is more often than not simply sticking 2 awesome WRs together doesn't result in championships, or else the Colts, Cardinals and Bengals would've been meeting each other in the playoffs every year.

and the Rams had Marshall Faulk, btw, who would make anyone around him look good. fucking Ricky Proehl looked like a worldbeater on that team. RICKY PROEHL!

defense wins championships. look up the 2007 Super Bowl winning Giants to see what a championship roster looks like. they didn't even have anyone on that team that resembled the talent of one TO, let alone a TO and a Roy Williams.

Kodos

10-15-2008, 09:03 AM

Plexiglass is pretty good.

Honolulu_Blue

10-15-2008, 09:08 AM

agreed with Molson. 2 years from now the lions will be cursing this trade, because we all know thet will piss away the picks and Roy will become a real good reciever now that hes been unbanished

The Lions will not be cursing this trade 2 years from now.

Roy Williams already is a "real good reciever." He went to the Pro Bowl. He led the NFC in receiving yards as well. There's no question the Williams is a talent. That said, the Lions already have Calvin Johnson. He was the 2nd pick overall and is being paid accordingly. In order to retain Williams - whose contract was up at the end of this year - they Lions would have had to either franchise him or sign him to a massive, long term contract. That would have been just too much money poured into one position. It wouldn't have made any sense. It would have hamstrung the Lions' efforts to improve other areas of the team. (And, yes, the Lions' brass really should have thought this one through a couple of years ago, but "thinking" was not something the Lions' execs did much of during the Millen Era.)

That said, draft picks are over valued. The draft is a gamble. The Lions can only hope that by the time the draft rolls around they have new, compotent leadership in place who will actually be able to evaluate talent and will make the right calls. Even the best in the business miss on draft picks, but an extra 1st and 3rd round pick just might turn into something.

So, at the end of the day, the chance that the Lions will hit on one of those two picks, even getting servicable NFL player (not at Williams' level) is much better than the alternatives which would have been either: (1) Williams walks and the Lions get nothing or (2) the Lions invest an insane amount of money into the WR, leaving them with less cash to spend addressing all the areas of need (and they are legion).

Anthony

10-15-2008, 09:15 AM

TroyF

10-15-2008, 09:27 AM

That's less than the price of moving from where the Cowboys expect to pick in this years draft (24+) to the 1.7 pick, which is where Williams was picked. Considering the "hit" rate of first round WRs, and the fact that you know Roy Williams is surely a "hit" I don't think its that bad a deal.

It is odd though, this seems like an offseason 2009 deal, made in the middle of the 2008 season.

While I agree with the logic to a degree. . . I still think this is a horrific move for the Cowboys. When healthy, offensive weapons aren't a problem. They have a top 5 NFL WR in Owens. They have the NFL's best TE. They have a very solid #1 RB and an electrifying rookie RB who needs to touch the ball more, not less.

Now you have to integrate a starting WR into the offense in the middle of the year when your starting QB is down for a month. Then, when he comes back, he not only has to find a way to get Williams involved despite not having any chemistry with him, he also has to keep TO happy on the other side. We all know what TO does here. He comes unglued.

Now it's a three ring circus.

Next year after they dump TO? Maybe the trade is good. But you have such a short window in the NFL to win championships. (my reasoning in GB about Favre) The Cowboys best bet wasn't to panic. It was to get through the next few weeks, get healthy, work Felix into the offense more, and address the secondary issues. Then gel about the 10 game mark and steamroll through the playoffs. Could it have happened? I dunno. But I'd certainly have given it better odds than them going through now.

TroyF

10-15-2008, 09:30 AM

draft picks are currency, and 1st and 3rd rounders are the $100 dollar bills of football. they already have their one standout WR in Calvin Johnson, they can surround him with some role players and their receiving corps is done. they can parlay that 1st and 3rd into current NFL talent via trade if need be. they need an obvious upgrade over Orlovsky at QB, that's for sure. their RB situation with Kevin Smith and Rudi Johnson is locked down. they just need to begin working on their defense, all facets of it.

The Lions are going to be able to upgrade their roster considerably over the next couple of years. The only problem is there isn't really a franchise QB available this year. Their search for a real NFL QB will still go on. . .

Honolulu_Blue

10-15-2008, 09:45 AM

The Lions are going to be able to upgrade their roster considerably over the next couple of years. The only problem is there isn't really a franchise QB available this year. Their search for a real NFL QB will still go on. . .

This is why the Lions' season will likely follow this path. With Kitna on IR, the Lions will start Orlovsky again this week. If he plays well, he will continue to start. If he flames out, Stanton will get the nod. Given that it's very unlikely that the Lions will be successful and that Orlovsky will be really good, Stanton is going to start at some point this season. The only question is when and that depends on how Orlovsky, and to a lesser extent, the Lions in general perform.

The Lions need to know what they have in Stanton. I don't think he's the answer at QB (thus their search for a real NFL QB will continue...), but they invested a 2nd round pick on the guy, so they have to know whether he is at least servicable, if not as a starter, than as a back-up.

sachmo71

10-15-2008, 09:59 AM

ArlingtonColt

10-15-2008, 10:12 AM

Lathum

10-15-2008, 10:14 AM

I am amazed anyone can think this is a bad trade for the Lions.

They arent going anywhere for another 3-5 years until they build up their roster. In order to do that they need draft picks so while draft picks are an unknown commodity, the more they get the better.

IF they kept Williams by the time they were good again he would be 31 and making a ton of money.

Anthony

10-15-2008, 10:30 AM

lordscarlet

10-15-2008, 10:40 AM

How can anyone view this deal as anything other than a "Win" for the Cowboys? Roy Williams is a proven YOUNG (He's only 26) receiver who has had KITNA throwing to him. How are there ever too many weapons on a team? I don't understand how anyone can bash a team for being "too loaded" Call me stupid, but I'd rather be the Cowboys than the freakin Chiefs.

How are teams going to be able to double T.O, Witten, and Williams? They can't... Why do you think Barber had so many catches this past week? Because Romo's primary two targets were being DOUBLED! Imagine those 12 balls going to Roy Williams instead? That's easily more yardage and that means MORE FIRST DOWNS, which keeps drives alive and KEEPS THE DEFENSE OFF THE FIELD!

This sets the Cowboys up with a nucleus of Romo who is 28, Witten who is 26, Williams 26, and Barber 25.... thats a pretty stout nucleus if you ask me. Their ENTIRE Defense (Other than Ellis, Henry, and Thomas who all are backed up by recent #1 picks) are under 30 YEARS OLD!

Oh and we have 9 picks in next years draft.... we didn't sell off the future either.

I watched Shawn Springs cover TO in man-to-man coverage for an entire half. After he went out with an injury, Carlos Rogers was able to cover him with some help over the top from Laron Landry. If Springs is healthy he can cover TO and Rogers/Landry can cover Williams. And the Redskins do not have the best secondary in the league. TO is not unstoppable. The Cowboys are not unstoppable. This has been shown several times this season, even with wins by the Cowboys. If they were, they wouldn't have made this trade.

Now, to hedge my bets a little bit, I'm just saying it is possible. This is the NFL, and people don't always play up to their abilities/etc.

Anthony

10-15-2008, 10:41 AM

adding Williams means less targets for TO and especially Witten. which means you need to overcompensate by passing more to make more use out of your receiving weapons, which would be good if they had Lawrence Maroney as a RB, but they don't - they have Marion Barber who now will have less carries per game. even less so for Felix Jones, who they spent a 2nd round pick on. when you have Witten, TO, Romo and Barber - your offense is not your problem. now they have to make unnecessary changes to justify aquiring Williams.

TroyF

10-15-2008, 11:29 AM

How can anyone view this deal as anything other than a "Win" for the Cowboys? Roy Williams is a proven YOUNG (He's only 26) receiver who has had KITNA throwing to him. How are there ever too many weapons on a team? I don't understand how anyone can bash a team for being "too loaded" Call me stupid, but I'd rather be the Cowboys than the freakin Chiefs.

How are teams going to be able to double T.O, Witten, and Williams? They can't... Why do you think Barber had so many catches this past week? Because Romo's primary two targets were being DOUBLED! Imagine those 12 balls going to Roy Williams instead? That's easily more yardage and that means MORE FIRST DOWNS, which keeps drives alive and KEEPS THE DEFENSE OFF THE FIELD!

This sets the Cowboys up with a nucleus of Romo who is 28, Witten who is 26, Williams 26, and Barber 25.... thats a pretty stout nucleus if you ask me. Their ENTIRE Defense (Other than Ellis, Henry, and Thomas who all are backed up by recent #1 picks) are under 30 YEARS OLD!

Oh and we have 9 picks in next years draft.... we didn't sell off the future either.

Great nucleus, great team. . . on paper. How do they gel? That's the key. The Rams had a group of highly unselfish players. Faulk, Bruce, Holt and the rest didn't complain about their numbers.

The Patriots last year had incredible chemistry, even with Randy Moss. Guys like Stallworth and Welker and Faulk did the little things without complaining about how many times a game they did or didn't touch the ball. And Brady, along with the coaching staff, game planned to use all of the weapons and made sure everyone was involved.

Will that happen with the Cowboys? I'm not sure. TO is going to implode. I cannot see him being there next year. Is a 27 year old Williams next year better than the 34 year old TO of this year. Most certainly. But does it make them a lot more dominant offensively than what they are now? Not really.

Look, Dallas is 3rd in the league in yards for and points scored. They were 2nd in the league last year in points. Does Williams make them jump from 29 points a game to 36 (what the Patriots averaged last year) I don't think he does. Especially not while he's still learning the offense.

Two or three years down the road, I think this is a great trade for both teams. But the Cowboys want a title this year and I think this lessons the chance they'll get it. We'll find out in a few months if I'm wrong or right on that.

DeToxRox

10-15-2008, 11:45 AM

Roy gets 20 mil garaunteed from Dallas.

Again, Roy helps their offense, but seriously, Dallas D is PATHETIC. Who is going to play DB for them?

They turn the ball over still, and they don't get many takeaways.

You do not win titles that way.

DeToxRox

10-15-2008, 11:48 AM

Dola,

Dallas through 7 games is a minus 2 in turnover margain. That number will only get worse with Brad Johnson at QB, and no Adam Jones in the secondary.

You cannot win titles that way.

JAG

10-15-2008, 12:45 PM

There's a lot of humorous stuff in this thread, but the bottom line is the deal looks win-win to me.

Detroit clearly wins because they need draft picks to rebuild their mess of a roster. Roy Williams is going to be 30ish before they can compete again and they have much bigger and more important problems to deal with on their roster than WR, which they can begin to address with the extra draft picks.

Dallas wins because they get an upgrade at WR, a guy who can actually be a #1 WR, who is ready to play right now. Going into the draft this year, WR was going to be a top need for them, but not only is drafting a WR a crapshoot (heck, ask Detroit about that), unless you get lucky and get the one guy a draft who is ready to play immediately, you usually have to wait 2-3 years before they hit their groove. Dallas' core stars are all about in their primes now (exception of TO), it makes a lot more sense to get a good WR in their prime now to allign with everyone. Yes, they already have plenty of weapons on offense, but this just makes them more difficult to defense.

That said, it's a risk because with Dallas paying so much in cap space to their stars and more needing to be allocated to Ware in the near future, draft picks are going to be a lot more valuable to them as cheap labor (unless 2010 is an uncapped year, which maybe factored into the decision). Admittedly they still have 9 picks next season and probably a decent compensatory pick coming for Julius Jones, their big offensive issue is their OL is starting to get creaky and their defense needs another pass rusher. That's on paper. Besides that, they could really use some better leadership from the top.

I think this move for Dallas was made with future seasons in mind, not just this one. Honestly Dallas won't be able to play its best ball til towards the end of the season when they start to get players back from injury, so the time it takes to integrate WR Roy into the offense doesn't much matter...and they didn't give up any resources from this season to acquire him.

sachmo71

10-15-2008, 02:29 PM

TO is going to implode.

This is not going to happen. And yes, I look forward to you calling me all sorts of names if it does.

Honolulu_Blue

10-15-2008, 02:44 PM

This is not going to happen. And yes, I look forward to you calling me all sorts of names if it does.

I think it's too late, Sach...

I mean, take a look at him....

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/deadspin/2008/10/towtf.jpg

If this is not the look of a man whose implosion is imminent, then I don't know what is. And this was before the Roy Williams trade.

sachmo71

10-15-2008, 02:52 PM

MrDNA

10-15-2008, 09:22 PM

Well played Detroit. I wonder what they'd have given up with Millen negotiating.

Fixed it for you. :p

M GO BLUE!!!

10-15-2008, 10:59 PM

I think it's too late, Sach...

I mean, take a look at him....

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/deadspin/2008/10/towtf.jpg

If this is not the look of a man whose implosion is imminent, then I don't know what is. And this was before the Roy Williams trade.

Am I the only one who likes this look?

Romo question: If he does play with a broken pinky, what is the over/under on fumbles? Or does he actually hold on to the ball for a change, prompting Cowboy fans to break one finger every season?

Matthean

10-16-2008, 12:07 AM

Mr. Olympia

10-16-2008, 01:06 AM

Dallas through 7 games is a minus 2 in turnover margain. That number will only get worse with Brad Johnson at QB, and no Adam Jones in the secondary.

Why would you say this? Romo is a major cause of their turnovers, so Johnson should be an improvement. With Romo out I also think Dallas will run the ball more.

Balldog

10-16-2008, 05:26 AM

This is why the Lions' season will likely follow this path. With Kitna on IR, the Lions will start Orlovsky again this week. If he plays well, he will continue to start. If he flames out, Stanton will get the nod. Given that it's very unlikely that the Lions will be successful and that Orlovsky will be really good, Stanton is going to start at some point this season. The only question is when and that depends on how Orlovsky, and to a lesser extent, the Lions in general perform.

The Lions need to know what they have in Stanton. I don't think he's the answer at QB (thus their search for a real NFL QB will continue...), but they invested a 2nd round pick on the guy, so they have to know whether he is at least servicable, if not as a starter, than as a back-up.

This makes me interested in actually watching Lions games again.

My concern is there are no great QBs in the upcoming draft, might get stuck trying to deal for Derek Anderson from the Browns.

Eaglesfan27

10-16-2008, 07:01 AM

Romo has told Dallas today that he is ready to start this Sunday and doesn't plan on missing any games. Will be interesting to see how Dallas responds.

Anthony

10-16-2008, 07:11 AM

M GO BLUE!!!

10-16-2008, 08:47 AM

not everyone can be Brett Favre. by the time Favre developed his Iron Man status, playing through injuries that would sideline other QBs he had his consecutive starts streak to maintain. it became more of "is this injury worth breaking my streak for?". Romo has more miles left on him, no need to risk serious injury that'd sideline him longer for a month just to look tough. not like the Cowboys are serious Super Bowl contenders this year. having to break in a new WR who figures to be a prominent part of their offense means it's gonna be a bumpy ride. he's being selfish and i hope it backfires on him.

How is it being selfish? If Eli said "My chest hurts a little bit, I need to take some time on the bench. NY, meet David Carr!" would you support the move?

If you can play well, the injury doesn't get worse and you can avoid the injury affecting your play in a serious way, why not try and help the team?

Anthony

10-16-2008, 09:29 AM

yes, i wouldn't want Eli to play cuz while a chest injury is vague - QBs get sacked. multiple times in a game. i don't have a prob with David Carr, he was a starting QB for a handful of years. i'd take Carr over Matt Cassell. Romo went from being out up to a month to wanting to start the very next game. at the very least don't you think he should at least sit out a week? what's the harm in that? Brett Favre, while a great QB, has now made it hard for other QBs cuz everyone else gets compared to him and his longevity and ability to play through pain. the last several years Favre has been a mid-30s HOF-bound QB with nothing to prove. not some QB who has his whole career ahead of him on a non-Super Bowl caliber team. Romo is gonna risk further injury just so his team can miss the playoffs?

ArlingtonColt

10-16-2008, 10:10 AM

A non-Super Bowl caliber team??? I must be missing something here...

Matthean

10-16-2008, 10:17 AM

Favre has also been known to go overboard with painkillers so let's not pile on too much praise for that streak.

Anthony

10-16-2008, 10:33 AM

A non-Super Bowl caliber team??? I must be missing something here...

yes, apparently you missed the last 3 weeks of Cowboys football. :)

Sun, Sep 28 WASHINGTON L 26-24
Sun, Oct 5 CINCINNATI W 31-22 (this was against a Bengals team without Carson Palmer, btw)
Sun, Oct 12 @ Arizona L 30-24

a defense that is allowing 21+ points a game isn't gonna win a game of Yahtzee, let alone a Super Bowl.

Taur

10-16-2008, 11:01 AM

A non-Super Bowl caliber team??? I must be missing something here...
LOL... I am going to let you in on a little secret.

What wins Championships? DEFENSE.

And, right now the Cowboys have one of the worst Defenses in the league. So, unless Roy Williams is going to start at CB, the Cowboys are in big trouble.

TroyF

10-16-2008, 11:06 AM

yes, apparently you missed the last 3 weeks of Cowboys football. :)

Sun, Sep 28 WASHINGTON L 26-24
Sun, Oct 5 CINCINNATI W 31-22
Sun, Oct 12 @ Arizona L 30-24

a defense that is allowing 21+ points a game isn't gonna win a game of Parcheesi, let alone a Super Bowl.

Last years NY Giants gave up 21.9 points per game, gave up over 30 points in a game 5 times during the season and seemed to do OK in the playoffs.

The Cowboys have Super Bowl talent. And last I checked, they were 4-2.

Now we'll see how they get through this next stretch of games. They play the Rams and then face the Bucs at home and the Giants/Redskins on the road. That will tell us more about where they are going. The Cowboys do have some major issues to deal with. And I don't think Roy Williams is pushing them over the top to the Super Bowl like some do. But let's not make snap judgments off of a three game stretch either. This is still a pretty good team.

JAG

10-16-2008, 11:39 AM

Dallas isn't playing horribly defensively (you're really going to pin the 14 special teams points AZ scored on Dallas' defense?), just inconsistently. They have two rookies and Pacman (who hadn't played in a couple years, albeit he's gone now) contributing in nickel / dime sets, with two missing starters in the secondary (admittedly one of them being Roy Williams) and a backup in the secondary, using their #2 pass rusher to cover TE's (has worked somewhat, but Dallas isn't getting enough pressure), and with their #3 pass rusher out amid other various minor injuries.

I'm not particularly confident they'll get over their coaching / leadership (or chemistry if you will) issues this season, but getting players back from injury should help them on the field at least. Outside of their punter and possibly Sam Hurd (special teams), they haven't had a lot of people added to IR.

ArlingtonColt

10-16-2008, 12:17 PM

The Cowboys are 10th in ypg.... I look at that more than Pts/G because of all the other factors involved... the only one that a defense is solely responsible is YPG.

Fighter of Foo

10-16-2008, 01:14 PM

Special team affects YPG in a big way.

fantom1979

10-16-2008, 01:28 PM

Blocked punts that are recovered in the end zone effect PPG in a big way.

fantom1979

10-16-2008, 01:36 PM

Taking out the 1 blocked punt, the 1 KR for TD, and the 1 fumble for a touchdown, the Cowboys are giving up 20.3 PPG.

Here is a chart of only the defensive PPG given up. It removes all points given up on special teams and offense.

<table x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 189pt;" width="252" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><col style="width: 48pt;" width="64"> <col style="width: 77pt;" width="103"> <col style="width: 64pt;" width="85"> <tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt; width: 48pt;" width="64" height="17">Rank</td> <td class="xl23" style="width: 77pt;" width="103">Team (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-SCORING/2008/regular?sort_col_1=3&_3:col_1=1)</td> <td class="xl23" style="width: 64pt;" width="85">DPPG</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1</td> <td class="xl23">Tennessee (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/TEN)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">11.2</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">2</td> <td class="xl23">Carolina (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/CAR)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="13.166666666666666">13.2</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">3</td> <td class="xl23">Pittsburgh (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/PIT)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">14.2</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">4</td> <td class="xl23">Baltimore (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/BAL)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">15.0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">5</td> <td class="xl23">Tampa Bay (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/TB)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="15.166666666666666">15.2</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">6</td> <td class="xl23">New York (N) (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/NYG)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">15.6</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">7</td> <td class="xl23">Washington (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/WAS)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">16.5</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">8</td> <td class="xl23">Indianapolis (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/IND)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">16.6</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">9</td> <td class="xl23">Minnesota (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/MIN)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="16.833333333333332">16.8</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">10</td> <td class="xl23">Chicago (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/CHI)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="17.166666666666668">17.2</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">11</td> <td class="xl23">Cleveland (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/CLE)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">17.2</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">12</td> <td class="xl23">Philadelphia (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/PHI)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">18.5</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">13</td> <td class="xl23">New Orleans (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/NO)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="19.166666666666668">19.2</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">14</td> <td class="xl23">Miami (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/MIA)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">19.4</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">15</td> <td class="xl23">Dallas (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/DAL)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">20.5</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">16</td> <td class="xl23">Buffalo (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/BUF)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">20.8</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">17</td> <td class="xl23">San Diego (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/SD)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="20.833333333333332">20.8</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">18</td> <td class="xl23">Atlanta (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/ATL)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="21.166666666666668">21.2</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">19</td> <td class="xl23">Jacksonville (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/JAC)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="21.333333333333332">21.3</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">20</td> <td class="xl23">New England (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/NE)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">21.8</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">21</td> <td class="xl23">Green Bay (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/GB)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="22.833333333333332">22.8</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">22</td> <td class="xl23">Cincinnati (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/CIN)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">23.0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">23</td> <td class="xl23">Arizona (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/ARI)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">23.0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">24</td> <td class="xl23">New York (A) (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/NYJ)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">23.6</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">25</td> <td class="xl23">Denver (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/DEN)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="24.333333333333332">24.3</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">26</td> <td class="xl23">Kansas City (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/KC)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">25.0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">27</td> <td class="xl23">San Francisco (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/SF)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="25.833333333333332">25.8</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">28</td> <td class="xl23">Oakland (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/OAK)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">27.0</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">29</td> <td class="xl23">Seattle (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/SEA)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">27.8</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">30</td> <td class="xl23">Detroit (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/DET)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">27.8</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">31</td> <td class="xl23">Houston (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/HOU)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">29.2</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl23" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">32</td> <td class="xl23">St. Louis (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/page/STL)</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">30.4</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

fantom1979

10-16-2008, 01:50 PM

Here is the Defensive Rank (by PPG) for each Super Bowl Champion

<table x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 163pt;" width="217" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><col style="width: 48pt;" width="64"> <col style="width: 67pt;" width="89"> <col style="width: 48pt;" width="64"> <tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt; width: 48pt;" width="64" height="17">Year</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 67pt;" width="89">Team</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 48pt;" width="64">Def Rank (Points)</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">2007</td> <td class="xl24">NY Giants</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">17</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">2006</td> <td class="xl24">Colts</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">23</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">2005</td> <td class="xl24">Steelers</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">3</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">2004</td> <td class="xl24">Patriots</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">2</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">2003</td> <td class="xl24">Patriots</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">1</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">2002</td> <td class="xl24">Tampa Bay</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">1</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">2001</td> <td class="xl24">Patriots</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">6</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">2000</td> <td class="xl24">Ravens</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">1</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1999</td> <td class="xl24">Rams</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">4</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1998</td> <td class="xl24">Broncos</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">8</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1997</td> <td class="xl24">Broncos</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">6</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1996</td> <td class="xl24">Green Bay</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">1</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1995</td> <td class="xl24">Dallas</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">3</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1994</td> <td class="xl24">49ers</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">6</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1993</td> <td class="xl24">Dallas</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">2</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1992</td> <td class="xl24">Dallas</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">5</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1991</td> <td class="xl24">Redskins</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">2</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1990</td> <td class="xl24">NY Giants</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">1</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1989</td> <td class="xl24">49ers</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">3</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1988</td> <td class="xl24">49ers</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">8</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1987</td> <td class="xl24">Redskins</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">6</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1986</td> <td class="xl24">NY Giants</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">2</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1985</td> <td class="xl24">Bears</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">1</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1984</td> <td class="xl24">49ers</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">1</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1983</td> <td class="xl24">Raiders</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">13</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1982</td> <td class="xl24">Redskins</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">1</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1981</td> <td class="xl24">49ers</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">2</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1980</td> <td class="xl24">Raiders</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">10</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1979</td> <td class="xl24">Steelers</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">5</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1978</td> <td class="xl24">Steelers</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">1</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1977</td> <td class="xl24">Dallas</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">8</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1976</td> <td class="xl24">Raiders</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">12</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1975</td> <td class="xl24">Steelers</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">2</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1974</td> <td class="xl24">Steelers</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">2</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1973</td> <td class="xl24">Miami</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">1</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1972</td> <td class="xl24">Miami</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">1</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1971</td> <td class="xl24">Dallas</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">7</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1970</td> <td class="xl24">Colts</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">7</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1969</td> <td class="xl24">Kansas City</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">1</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1968</td> <td class="xl24">NY Jest</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">4</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1967</td> <td class="xl24">Green Bay</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">3</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:num="" height="17">1966</td> <td class="xl24">Green Bay</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">1</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td class="xl24">2000-2007</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="6.75" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(C2:C9)">6.8</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td class="xl24">1990-1999</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(C10:C19)">3.8</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td class="xl24">1980-1989</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(C20:C29)">4.7</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td class="xl24">1970-1979</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(C30:C39)">4.6</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td class="xl24">1966-1969</td> <td class="xl25" x:num="2.25" x:fmla="=AVERAGE(C40:C43)">2.3</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Honolulu_Blue

10-16-2008, 02:20 PM

This thread has become lame.

fantom1979

10-16-2008, 02:28 PM

I am the Ross Perot of message boards. I just love charts and graphs.

MikeVic

10-16-2008, 02:30 PM

You guys can't ignore special teams. I have felt that shitty special teams resulted in multiple Steelers losses the last few years. It's a big part of the game.

Bobble

10-16-2008, 02:46 PM

So, unless Roy Williams is going to start at CB, the Cowboys are in big trouble.

That's just crazy talk. Everyone knows Roy Williams plays safety.

Anthony

10-16-2008, 02:54 PM

I am the Ross Perot of message boards. I just love charts and graphs.

that is excellent stats, don't feel bad. so essentially, aside from a couple Super Bowl winning teams - unless you have a top 5 Defense (and in practically most of the cases its more like top 3) you aren't likely to win a Super Bowl.

funny thing about the '07 Giants is they won largely with the defense taking much of the accolades, yet they ranked as an average defense in the regular season (17th).

lordscarlet

10-16-2008, 03:10 PM

that is excellent stats, don't feel bad. so essentially, aside from a couple Super Bowl winning teams - unless you have a top 5 Defense (and in practically most of the cases its more like top 3) you aren't likely to win a Super Bowl.

funny thing about the '07 Giants is they won largely with the defense taking much of the accolades, yet they ranked as an average defense in the regular season (17th).

I would slightly modify that to a single digit rank. A lot of teams up there have 6/7/8

RendeR

10-16-2008, 06:31 PM

Youknow, the vast majority o the time when I se multiple Anthony posts its almost assured to be utter shyte, but today I have to say:

Listen to this man, He speaks truth.

Great analysis all around Anthony.

M GO BLUE!!!

10-16-2008, 10:14 PM

That's just crazy talk. Everyone knows Roy Williams plays safety.

Dallas Cowboys Dream Roster:

QB: Roy Williams
RB: Roy Williams
FB: Roy Williams
TE: Roy Williams
FL: Roy Williams
SE: Roy Williams
LT: Roy Williams
LG: Roy Williams
C: Roy Williams
RG: Roy Williams
RT: Roy Williams
P: Roy Williams
K: Roy Williams
LDE: Roy Williams
NT: Roy Williams
RDE: Roy Williams
LOLB: Roy Williams
LILB: Roy Williams
RILB: Roy Williams
ROLB: Roy Williams
LCB: Roy Williams
RCB: Roy Williams
SS: Roy Williams
FS: Roy Williams

Am I missing anybody?

IMetTrentGreen

10-17-2008, 05:40 AM

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cache.boston.com/resize/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2008/03/26/1206585858_6683/300h.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/mens_basketball/articles/2008/03/27/its_home_sweet_home_for_heels/&h=300&w=266&sz=12&hl=en&start=12&um=1&usg=__gU2cye3TpwGp6aUqiFSORQ4nLNw=&tbnid=TU1SIThaU_51yM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=103&prev=/images%3Fq%3Droy%2Bwilliams%2Bunc%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

miami_fan

10-17-2008, 06:29 AM

The Lions traded their best WR and, according to John Kitna, benched their best QB with more than half the season to go. Hmmm....

Just saying.

Fidatelo

10-17-2008, 08:24 AM

Dallas Cowboys Dream Roster:

QB: Roy Williams
RB: Roy Williams
FB: Roy Williams
TE: Roy Williams
FL: Roy Williams
SE: Roy Williams
LT: Roy Williams
LG: Roy Williams
C: Roy Williams
RG: Roy Williams
RT: Roy Williams
P: Roy Williams
K: Roy Williams
LDE: Roy Williams
NT: Roy Williams
RDE: Roy Williams
LOLB: Roy Williams
LILB: Roy Williams
RILB: Roy Williams
ROLB: Roy Williams
LCB: Roy Williams
RCB: Roy Williams
SS: Roy Williams
FS: Roy Williams

Am I missing anybody?

I think you're slighly off base here. About half of those guys should be a 'Jones', so it would look more like:

QB: Roy Williams
RB: Ray Jones
FB: Roy Williams
TE: Ryan Jones
FL: Roy Williams
SE: Roy Williams
LT: Roland Jones
LG: Roy Williams
C: Jeffrey Jones
RG: Roy Williams
RT: Roy Williams
P: Roy Williams
K: Jack Jones
LDE: John Jones
NT: Roy Williams
RDE: Roy Williams
LOLB: Roy Jones
LILB: Roy Williams
RILB: Larry Jones
ROLB: Roy Williams
LCB: Sammy Jones
RCB: Roy Williams
SS: Roy Williams
FS: Roy Williams

Matthean

10-17-2008, 08:33 AM

The Lions traded their best WR and, according to John Kitna, benched their best QB with more than half the season to go. Hmmm....

Just saying.

Many would argue about calling him their best WR. Nobody seems to mention the sheer number of passes he drops either. Kitna might be their best QB, but no matter how good he plays he is always due for a turnover. He's like a lesser talented version of Favre. The Lions fully understand they are going nowhere this season and they fully know what they have in Kitna. They need to find out what they have in thier backups. They could easily go out and grab a QB cast off, Kyle Boller, Derek Anderson, etc. and then work on having a little extra time to find a better solution if those don't work out.

DeToxRox

10-17-2008, 10:41 AM

The Lions traded their best WR and, according to John Kitna, benched their best QB with more than half the season to go. Hmmm....

Just saying.

The NFL isn't like the NBA; if you tank in the NFL you get hit with a 60 million dollar player that totally fucks up your salary cap.

Kitna is a 36 year old QB, it isn't like he is 26 and a clear cut #1 starter. Whoever the new GM will be needs to see if the kids, Orlovsky or Stanton, can play. I don't think they can but whatever. As for Roy, well, watch a game, and notice how dominate Calvin can be, and how invisible Roy became.

Just to note as well; on the season Kitna is 68 of 120 for 758 yards, with 5 TD and 5 INT, as well as 3 fumbles.

When this team named Jim Coletto offensive coordinator, now that I could say would be the first sign of tanking.

Honolulu_Blue

10-17-2008, 11:09 AM

The NFL isn't like the NBA; if you tank in the NFL you get hit with a 60 million dollar player that totally fucks up your salary cap.

Kitna is a 36 year old QB, it isn't like he is 26 and a clear cut #1 starter. Whoever the new GM will be needs to see if the kids, Orlovsky or Stanton, can play. I don't think they can but whatever. As for Roy, well, watch a game, and notice how dominate Calvin can be, and how invisible Roy became.

Just to note as well; on the season Kitna is 68 of 120 for 758 yards, with 5 TD and 5 INT, as well as 3 fumbles.

When this team named Jim Coletto offensive coordinator, now that I could say would be the first sign of tanking.

Have the Lions basically given up on this season? Yes. They have. Have they done so to purposely tank the season? No. They just suck and realized that nothing's going to be accomplished this year with this group of players. It was time to start looking towards the future.

Both Williams and Kitna have openly criticized the offensive scheme and coaching staff (not that I blame them really). Between that, the poor team, and many other reasons, it was time to move on.

I think more highly of Roy Williams than most, but for all the reasons I stated above, they had to get rid of him and they did a good job at getting some value (more than most expected) in return.

Kitna sucks. He performed very badly this year and was becoming a bit of a cancer on the team. His blow-up on the sidelines in game one was on example, him taking off his helmet and walking away from the play while the Packers' CB returned his interception for a touchdown was another. Kitna's not the future or the answer for this team. It was best that he was removed from the picture, thus forcing the coaching staff to see if Orlovsky or Stanton can handle it. (Like DeTox, I have serious doubts about both).

The Lions need to do more of this. They need to play young guys like Cherlius, Dizon, and whoever. If they are going to look towards the future, they have to do so consistently across the board. They need to see how these guys perform during games. See if they can develop.

Maybe if there was some superstar, consensus #1 overall pick, maybe the whole Lions are tanking the season thing would make some sense. As far as I know, there is not. (I usually don't start thinking about the draft until after the college season is done.) Between that and the whole financial burden of a high draft pick, purposefully losing games doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Even for the Lions.

DeToxRox

10-17-2008, 11:16 AM

Have the Lions basically given up on this season? Yes. They have. Have they done so to purposely tank the season? No. They just suck and realized that nothing's going to be accomplished this year with this group of players. It was time to start looking towards the future.

Both Williams and Kitna have openly criticized the offensive scheme and coaching staff (not that I blame them really). Between that, the poor team, and many other reasons, it was time to move on.

I think more highly of Roy Williams than most, but for all the reasons I stated above, they had to get rid of him and they did a good job at getting some value (more than most expected) in return.

Kitna sucks. He performed very badly this year and was becoming a bit of a cancer on the team. His blow-up on the sidelines in game one was on example, him taking off his helmet and walking away from the play while the Packers' CB returned his interception for a touchdown was another. Kitna's not the future or the answer for this team. It was best that he was removed from the picture, thus forcing the coaching staff to see if Orlovsky or Stanton can handle it. (Like DeTox, I have serious doubts about both).

The Lions need to do more of this. They need to play young guys like Cherlius, Dizon, and whoever. If they are going to look towards the future, they have to do so consistently across the board. They need to see how these guys perform during games. See if they can develop.

Maybe if there was some superstar, consensus #1 overall pick, maybe the whole Lions are tanking the season thing would make some sense. As far as I know, there is not. (I usually don't start thinking about the draft until after the college season is done.) Between that and the whole financial burden of a high draft pick, purposefully losing games doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Even for the Lions.

I think Roy is a good player, but Lions fans made him out to be something he wasn't. Roy is like Keyshawn Johnson. He doesn't stretch the field. He can, but once Calvin came here, he should've been able to run free over the middle and catch 100 balls. He hasn't shown an ability to do that consistently yet for whatever reason.

I am sure the losing got to him, I don't blame him one bit, but it just irked me how unprofessional he slowly was becoming. Too many hissy fits and what not. Then again, when your QB is screaming at coaches in the first game of the season, and he is your supposed leader, I guess I can't say I am shocked.

As far as clear cut #1 pick, if you took a conesnus from all the draft geeks and what not, it's probably Michael Oher out of Ole Miss. I'd be happy as hell to have a legit LT finally, but ugh, the thought of a 40 million dollar signing bonus scares the hell out of me.

Honolulu_Blue

10-17-2008, 11:30 AM

I think Roy is a good player, but Lions fans made him out to be something he wasn't. Roy is like Keyshawn Johnson. He doesn't stretch the field. He can, but once Calvin came here, he should've been able to run free over the middle and catch 100 balls. He hasn't shown an ability to do that consistently yet for whatever reason.

I am sure the losing got to him, I don't blame him one bit, but it just irked me how unprofessional he slowly was becoming. Too many hissy fits and what not. Then again, when your QB is screaming at coaches in the first game of the season, and he is your supposed leader, I guess I can't say I am shocked.

As far as clear cut #1 pick, if you took a conesnus from all the draft geeks and what not, it's probably Michael Oher out of Ole Miss. I'd be happy as hell to have a legit LT finally, but ugh, the thought of a 40 million dollar signing bonus scares the hell out of me.

I seriously hope Calvin Johnson does reach his potential. He looked unstoppable in the pre-season. He has shown flashes of what he can be, like in the Green Bay game, but he's been wildly inconsistent. He has too many dropped passes and tends to disappear for long stretches at a time.

It will be interesting to see how the loss of Roy Williams affects his game.

DeToxRox

10-17-2008, 11:35 AM

I seriously hope Calvin Johnson does reach his potential. He looked unstoppable in the pre-season. He has shown flashes of what he can be, like in the Green Bay game, but he's been wildly inconsistent. He has too many dropped passes and tends to disappear for long stretches at a time.

It will be interesting to see how the loss of Roy Williams affects his game.

I am willing to bet we both forget what number he even is, because you'll see at least three other guys on him all game now. With the vanillia playbook Coletto has, and the lack of respect our running game gets, teams will load up on Calvin and let the other WR's beat them. Not to mention the guy throwing the ball will be Dan "Safety Dance" Orlovsky, or Drew "Tuck 'n Run" Stanton.

I do think though this will be good for his development, because he will still put up numbers, and I can't see the situation ever getting any worse then it'll be in the upcoming weeks.

Honolulu_Blue

10-17-2008, 11:40 AM

I am willing to bet we both forget what number he even is, because you'll see at least three other guys on him all game now. With the vanillia playbook Coletto has, and the lack of respect our running game gets, teams will load up on Calvin and let the other WR's beat them. Not to mention the guy throwing the ball will be Dan "Safety Dance" Orlovsky, or Drew "Tuck 'n Run" Stanton.

I do think though this will be good for his development, because he will still put up numbers, and I can't see the situation ever getting any worse then it'll be in the upcoming weeks.

I agree. This will be a dark period for the Lions' offense and given what we've seen over the last 8 years, that's really saying something.

I also don't blame Kitna for being frustrated. Coletto's offense sucks. It's terrible. Between that and all the losing, I'm not surprised his pissy and angry. But, then again, his performance this year has been abysmal. The team was 1-11 over the last 12 games in which he started. The injury was a good excuse to bench him, but his benching was equally justified based on his performance and lack of results.

DeToxRox

10-17-2008, 11:42 AM

I agree. This will be a dark period for the Lions' offense and given what we've seen over the last 8 years, that's really saying something.

I also don't blame Kitna for being frustrated. Coletto's offense sucks. It's terrible. Between that and all the losing, I'm not surprised his pissy and angry. But, then again, his performance this year has been abysmal. The team was 1-11 over the last 12 games in which he started. The injury was a good excuse to bench him, but his benching was equally justified based on his performance and lack of results.

I almost think Marinelli breathed a sigh of relief when he went down because he lets the Vets get away with murder.

My only hope now is Chuck Darby gets benched so we can see Fluellen play a little bit. We have all these kids on the DL and none of them play, it's ridiculous.

I mean, Avril plays some, and has shown flashes, but I want to see the interior guys considering out awful our interior line is.

Honolulu_Blue

10-17-2008, 11:47 AM

I almost think Marinelli breathed a sigh of relief when he went down because he lets the Vets get away with murder.

My only hope now is Chuck Darby gets benched so we can see Fluellen play a little bit. We have all these kids on the DL and none of them play, it's ridiculous.

I mean, Avril plays some, and has shown flashes, but I want to see the interior guys considering out awful our interior line is.

Let's not forget our 2nd round pick from 2 years ago, 5-0! Though, I can see why he's having such a hard time cracking the line-up with all of those great players ahead of him.

The state of the defensive line is an excellent micrcosm of all of Marinelli's many shortcomings as a coach.

DeToxRox

10-17-2008, 12:00 PM

Let's not forget our 2nd round pick from 2 years ago, 5-0! Though, I can see why he's having such a hard time cracking the line-up with all of those great players ahead of him.

The state of the defensive line is an excellent micrcosm of all of Marinelli's many shortcomings as a coach.

Yes. Sigh. Let's just hope the NFL passes the rule allowing anyone in a front office position to be able to interview for another front office job without permission passes, so we can get this started ASAP.

M GO BLUE!!!

10-17-2008, 03:02 PM

Guys... Marinelli is a genius when it comes to coaching up a d-line! What this team needs is some firepower on offense. They need a legitimate second option in the passing game, then Harrington will... Um... I mean Kitna... Um... Never mind.

Anthony

10-17-2008, 03:25 PM

miami_fan

10-17-2008, 05:27 PM

Many would argue about calling him their best WR. Nobody seems to mention the sheer number of passes he drops either. Kitna might be their best QB, but no matter how good he plays he is always due for a turnover. He's like a lesser talented version of Favre. The Lions fully understand they are going nowhere this season and they fully know what they have in Kitna. They need to find out what they have in thier backups. They could easily go out and grab a QB cast off, Kyle Boller, Derek Anderson, etc. and then work on having a little extra time to find a better solution if those don't work out.

I agree with this. My point is that the NBA seems to be the only place where a team that is not going anywhere in that season can't switch into rebuild mode and find out what they have in their backups while trading talented players who MAY help them win games in that losing season.

M GO BLUE!!!

10-17-2008, 06:04 PM

Wait one second... How can the NFL allow teams to just go and trade a player to another team? The NFL has roles about teams changing their jerseys and rules about players switching jersey numbers... They frequently deny players the opportunity to change numbers (Kevin Smith wanted to change from 34 to 24, etc.)

So how can they allow Roy Williams to change teams? What about those unsold Lions #11 jerseys?

RendeR

10-17-2008, 07:01 PM

What about those unsold Lions jerseys?

Hold on now, you're assuming anyone ever buys a lions jersey....

Matthean

10-17-2008, 09:36 PM

Hold on now, you're assuming anyone ever buys a lions jersey....

They can probably send to the same place that those Pats Super Bowl t-shirts from last year went.

A NBA can try to tank a season. It was widely accepted that teams were trying to do it two years ago. It's still a crap shoot in terms of it panning out for you. The Lions can mail in the season and look like a top three pick. In the NBA, a top 3 pick could suddenly be something in the top 4, 5, etc...

Honolulu_Blue

10-17-2008, 11:38 PM

Hold on now, you're assuming anyone ever buys a lions jersey....

I bought a Lions jersey once... That was about 13 years ago. It's a good jersey. I still have it, though I never wear it.

stevew

10-17-2008, 11:44 PM

I bought a Lions jersey once... That was about 13 years ago. It's a good jersey. I still have it, though I never wear it.

It probably looks like the lions jersey I have too? 20?

Hmmm. Although you seem like more of a Scott Mitchell type of guy.

:)

Honolulu_Blue

10-17-2008, 11:50 PM

It probably looks like the lions jersey I have too? 20?

Hmmm. Although you seem like more of a Scott Mitchell type of guy.

:)

Scott Mitchell type of guy? That's a horrible thing to say. That's is easily the meanest thing anyone has ever said to me on a message board. You know who's a Scott Mitchell type of guy? Your mom.

The jersey is actually a 54. Chris Spielman.

It's a great jersey. It's a nice authentic one. I was working at sporting goods store at the time and got at 50% off.

thesloppy

10-18-2008, 12:05 AM

I've thrown out so many Lions jerseys.

I had a Charlie Batch jersey for Christ's sake. And TWO Harringtons.

*sigh*

Being a Lions fan is AWESOME!

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e291/thesloppy/lions.jpg

Apathetic Lurker

10-18-2008, 12:20 AM

I think owning a Andre Ware or Chuck Long Jersey is more problematic than a Scott Mitchell one

At least the Lions never F'ed themselves like the Tigers did by drafting a relief pitcher number one overall. In football terms, that's like drafting a kickoff T retreiver..

Another huge upside to the Lions...At least they were not as bad as to have the top overall pick the same year Mr. leaf was available..The temptation would have been enormous.....