Iverson traded to...

[bosshogg23]

Detroit. For Billups and McDyess.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081103/SPORTS0102/811030396

"The Pistons have traded Chauncey Billups and Antonio McDyess to Denver for All-Star guard Allen Iverson. The trade was finalized Monday morning, team officials said. Billups and McDyess were not at the team's shoot-around in Charlotte Monday as the Pistons prepared for play the Hornets."

I don't really understand this deal from Detroit's side and the timing is definitely unusual.

[bosshogg23]

Stephen A. Smith is reporting its near done.

*edit* Smith is also reporting McDyess is not likely to stay with Denver, whatever that means.

[MikeVic]

What the!

[hukarez]

What the!

+1

[Honolulu_Blue]

Uh.... Huh.

[DaddyTorgo]

Does this do anything to improve either team? In fact, with Iverson's demonstrated desire to need to hoist up a ridiculous amount of shots I think this makes Detroit worse - fewer shots for Rip+Tayshaun+Sheed

[MikeVic]

I don't think it makes Detroit better at all. For Denver, they get a couple of guys that don't need thirty shots a game, so more for Carmelo I guess.

[stevew]

Detroit saves 18m off of next years cap. I think that's maybe the big plus out of all this.

[Logan]

I'll chalk up Denver as a winner, if only because Melo + AI had no chance of real success so bringing Billups in seems to make a bit of sense, even if his contract is that bad.

[Butter]

Not the headline I expected to see today.

[DeToxRox]

Pistons got complacent. AI wants a title. might be a wash but we have sheed and ais contracts off the books next year so that's 34 mil to sign someone.

[Neon_Chaos]

I love this deal for Detroit. They're essentially throwing in the towel that this team is going to win a title in the next two/three years and have basically begun the rebuilding process.

Iverson's contract is off the books at the end of this year. That's $20 million. Sheed's contract is gone as well, that's $13 million.

If everything works out according to plan, the Pistons will essentially have about $20 something million to play with in the offseason.

The Nuggets get Billups' 4-year contract and McDyess' 2-year contract and probably get the best value for Iverson's expiring.

[cmp]

I really like the deal for Detroit. Billups has been declining a lot lately, and hasn't lived up to the whole Mr. Big Shot in years.

[cmp]

I love this deal for Detroit. They're essentially throwing in the towel that this team is going to win a title in the next two/three years and have basically begun the rebuilding process.


I'm not sure it's exactly throwing in the towel for this season. I don't see how it makes them worse.

[Racer]

The Pacers are a loser in this. Who the hell can we trade Jamaal Tinsley to now?

[stevew]

I have DET at approx 14 mil under next year. And a bit less after rookies, etc.

[Neon_Chaos]

I'm not sure it's exactly throwing in the towel for this season. I don't see how it makes them worse.

You really think that Iverson is going to be the savior that Detroit is waiting for? :) Or they did this trade for the $20 million coming off the books at the end of the season.

[MrBug708]

Pistons got complacent. AI wants a title. might be a wash but we have sheed and ais contracts off the books next year so that's 34 mil to sign someone.

Detroit will be 34 million dollars under the cap?

[Neon_Chaos]

Detroit will be 34 million dollars under the cap?

They're about $10 mil over the cap right now. Iverson and Sheed frees up about $34 mil at the end of the season.

I think the estimate of about $14 to $20 mil is just right, depending on the contracts they extend and rookie contracts.

[DeToxRox]

Detroit will be 34 million dollars under the cap?

AI makes 21 mil. . Sheed makes 13. Neither will be back.

[MrBug708]

They're about $10 mil over the cap right now. Iverson and Sheed frees up about $34 mil at the end of the season.

I think the estimate of about $14 to $20 mil is just right, depending on the contracts they extend and rookie contracts.

Got it, I didnt think Detroit would have 34 million to sign someone. How does Odom look like as a Piston :)

[MrBug708]

AI makes 21 mil. . Sheed makes 13. Neither will be back.

I'm not sure if you are being serious, but that isn't how NBA FA works...?

[cmp]

You really think that Iverson is going to be the savior that Detroit is waiting for? :) Or they did this trade for the $20 million coming off the books at the end of the season.

I'm not saying he's the savior, just saying it doesn't make them any worse now than they were with Billups. They have just as good of a shot as they did with Billups.

[Neon_Chaos]

Got it, I didnt think Detroit would have 34 million to sign someone. How does Odom look like as a Piston :)

HAH.

Yeah, it could happen.

Why not now!?

I would love for the Lakers to just trade Odom straight-up for Rip.

[MrBug708]

Lakers gotta be ready in case Kobe opts out...I would assume Lebron goes further east, so I guess that means Wade comes west?

[Neon_Chaos]

Lakers gotta be ready in case Kobe opts out...I would assume Lebron goes further east, so I guess that means Wade comes west?

I cannot fathom any scenario (outside of a $50 mil per season offer from Europe) that would have Kobe turning down a huge payday when his contract comes up.

[Neon_Chaos]

BTW, I just checked Rip Hamilton's contract on ESPN.

Hamilton has an Early Termination Clause in his contract for 2009. Not sure if it's a player or team option though.

If it's a team option, the Pistons could essentially let him go, press the reset button, and have about $25-$30 million to play with to rebuild around Tayshaun Prince.

[Fidatelo]

I've got a soft spot for AI, so I'm happy for him. Maybe he can make something happen with the Pistons.

[bosshogg23]

WDFN in Detroit is reporting that Denver will buy out McDyess and he will return to Detroit.

[Honolulu_Blue]

WDFN in Detroit is reporting that Denver will buy out McDyess and he will return to Detroit.

If this is true, that makes this deal a lot better.

[Neon_Chaos]

The more I think about this trade, the more I love it for Detroit.

They just got the inside track to nabbing not one, but two stars in 2010.

[Schmidty]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gary Gorski]

I like this deal for Detroit - we've been to the ECF six straight years and we've got one ring to show for it. Like someone said, Chauncey has not been Mr. Big Shot in quite some time - he's still a solid player but Iverson plays harder and is a better player.

Everyone can knock AI for being a selfish guy that hoists 80 shots per game and everyone remebers the "practice" rant but those days are long gone. I don't recall anyone saying bad things about him while he's been in Denver. I think Iverson's going to energize the team and I think Detroit is a legit contender in the East again. It might be a one season thing but I'll take one more championship over no more and the group as it stood was not going to win any more.

The only thing I'm pissed about is that I have Anthony Carter (now I assume former Nuggets starting PG) on my fantasy team. Thanks for nothing, Joe D :)

[Schmidty]

My wife just told me she's no longer a Pistons fan. Chauncey was her favorite player. He was mine too.

Now I won't have any sport she'll watch with me, other than MSU basketball. :(

Chemistry is dead, and I don't think the team has a shot to win jack now. I never thought I'd say this: Fuck you Joe D.

[Neon_Chaos]

My wife just told me she's no longer a Pistons fan. Chauncey was her favorite player. He was mine too.

Now I won't have any sport she'll watch with me, other than MSU basketball. :(

Chemistry is dead, and I don't think the team has a shot to win jack now. I never thought I'd say this: Fuck you Joe D.

They might have a legit shot of bringing in Lebron and Wade in 2010. :D

[Schmidty]

Well, the more I think about it, I guess it's not technically a bad deal, but it just sucks to finally see the inevitable happen. Like I said above, I hope this doesn't kill any chemistry that the team had left.

Too bad it wasn't Sheed leaving instead of Chauncey.

Also, I wonder how this affect Stuckey? He should be the starter, but Iverson's obviously going to be. I guess he'll be in the exact same role as right now.

[bosshogg23]

I think we will see more 3 guard sets with this trade especially when Amir Johnson goes on his fouling sprees.

[Gary Gorski]

Just one thing to think about - when Joe traded for Sheed everyone said the same things. The chemistry will be ruined, Sheed's a train wreck that will bring the team down...and over time I do think that Sheed did have a negative influence on guys like Rip Hamilton in terms of his attitude on the court but for that season it worked perfect and we won it all. I don't know if this is enough to let Detroit win it all but I think we have a better shot than we did this morning.

[stevew]

There's a lot of mind-boggling lack of understanding of how the NBA cap works in this thread.

I suppose they will have significant cap room in 10/11, but they will also have 2-4 players signed at that point.

To have any kind of massive cap room for this summer, they'll have to move Prince as well. Not to mention who they'll bring in to replace AI and Sheed.

[bosshogg23]

There's a lot of mind-boggling lack of understanding of how the NBA cap works in this thread.

I suppose they will have significant cap room in 10/11, but they will also have 2-4 players signed at that point.

To have any kind of massive cap room for this summer, they'll have to move Prince as well. Not to mention who they'll bring in to replace AI and Sheed.

4 players are under contract for 10/11. Stuckey, Prince, Maxiell and Afflalo are the players. Around 21 million in guarantees.

For next season, if Detroit doesn't sign Sheed and IF McDyess returns for his exact same contract, Detroit is at roughly 45 million in guarantees.

So Darko for $10 million sounds like the plan :D

[Gary Gorski]

As it stands post trade Detroit has somewhere in the 35-38 million range on the books for next season (Hamilton, Prince, Maxiell, Kwame Brown, Amir Johnson, Stuckey, Afflalo and Walter Sharpe). The salary cap is 58.68 million this year so probably around 60 for next year - that's a sizeable amount of cap space assuming they renounce their rights to Sheed and Iverson. So yeah, if they give up their bird rights to Sheed and AI they'll have about 20-25 million under the cap for 8 players minus whatever rookies they draft and also minus anything if they resign McDyess here and give him more than a one year contract. Only Prince, Stuckey, Afflalo and Maxiell are on the books into the 2010 season.

[stevew]

ugh, math foul. yeah, i guess 18-20m in space after rookies.

[Young Drachma]

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[Samdari]

Also, I wonder how this affect Stuckey? He should be the starter, but Iverson's obviously going to be. I guess he'll be in the exact same role as right now.

Allen Iverson is not an NBA point guard, at least not a good one. Contrary to popular belief, he does not drive and dish. His game is classic SG, come off screens catch and shoot, drive for scores, etc.

Stckey has to start at PG. Its the only way this trade makes sense for the Pistons - it gets Stuckey on the court more. Otherwise, they have traded one of the least selfish players in the NBA for perhaps the most selfish (non-Marbury division) and cost themselves 10-15 wins a year. When they miss the playoffs, Piston fans will be bemoaning the heady days of 50+ wins and losing in the EC finals.

[Schmidty]

Allen Iverson is not an NBA point guard, at least not a good one. Contrary to popular belief, he does not drive and dish. His game is classic SG, come off screens catch and shoot, drive for scores, etc.

Stckey has to start at PG. Its the only way this trade makes sense for the Pistons - it gets Stuckey on the court more. Otherwise, they have traded one of the least selfish players in the NBA for perhaps the most selfish (non-Marbury division) and cost themselves 10-15 wins a year. When they miss the playoffs, Piston fans will be bemoaning the heady days of 50+ wins and losing in the EC finals.

I know how AI plays, but he still would be the PG in the starting line-up, because they aren't going to bench Rip. So as I said above - that still leaves Stuckey on the bench.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think this makes Detroit worse - fewer shots for Rip+Tayshaun+Sheed

Considering that AI had a higher FG% last season (.458) than Prince (.448) or Wallace (.432), I don't know if that's a bad thing for the Pistons.

[Samdari]

I know how AI plays, but he still would be the PG in the starting line-up, because they aren't going to bench Rip. So as I said above - that still leaves Stuckey on the bench.


If they play AI at PG, I'd like to revise my estimate for how many games this cost them from 10/15 to 25/30. When he's at PG, he takes EVERY shot, and shoots about 30%. Its a disaster. Both teams that got him have tried him at PG, and quickly found out that a journeyman (Eric Snow or A Carter, take your pick) was a better PG than AI. Why would they think he's going to develop into a great PG now?

[rjolley]

AI would be great with a player like LeBron who can run the offense from a non-point position. Or with a taller PG that would do a better job at guarding the opposing SG, like Magic from back in the day.

He's not a true PG, never really has been. In the right offense, that works. Don't think Detroit's is that offense. Should be interesting to watch.

[Oilers9911]

I really like the deal for Detroit. Billups has been declining a lot lately, and hasn't lived up to the whole Mr. Big Shot in years.

How has Billups been declining a lot lately? 17 PPG and 7 APG is declining?

[Gary Gorski]

Allen Iverson is not an NBA point guard, at least not a good one. Contrary to popular belief, he does not drive and dish. His game is classic SG, come off screens catch and shoot, drive for scores, etc.

Stckey has to start at PG. Its the only way this trade makes sense for the Pistons - it gets Stuckey on the court more. Otherwise, they have traded one of the least selfish players in the NBA for perhaps the most selfish (non-Marbury division) and cost themselves 10-15 wins a year. When they miss the playoffs, Piston fans will be bemoaning the heady days of 50+ wins and losing in the EC finals.

He's not a Chris Paul type point guard but he's capable of spending time running the point. He has averaged about 7 assists a game for the past few seasons which is the same as Billups although he does committ more turnovers. To be honest Stuckey's not a "true" point guard either.

Stuckey is the point guard of the future, Tayshaun could run some point if they want to run AI and Rip as the 2 and 3 for offensive purposes...there's options here. There is no way that this deal turns them into a 40 win team. Iverson is a better offensive player (neither are great defenders), Iverson plays harder and if it doesn't work out it doesn't work out and they can send Iverson (and Sheed) on their way and have plenty of cap space going forward rather than be holding the bag on a good, but not as good as he used to be Billups. I think unless you feel that they had a good chance of winning it all before the trade (which I don't) then there's really little potential downside to the deal. What's the worst possible scenario? This one season turns into a train wreck and we get a ton of cap space to build again next year?

[Schmidty]

If they play AI at PG, I'd like to revise my estimate for how many games this cost them from 10/15 to 25/30. When he's at PG, he takes EVERY shot, and shoots about 30%. Its a disaster. Both teams that got him have tried him at PG, and quickly found out that a journeyman (Eric Snow or A Carter, take your pick) was a better PG than AI. Why would they think he's going to develop into a great PG now?

I don't think you understand what I'm saying - He won't play like a PG, but he will have to be at the PG position. Tayshaun can direct the offense as well as most PGs, so that's not an issue, and when Rip or AI aren't on the floor, Stuckey be the PG.

Honestly, I think you are being waaaay, over-the-top about the games they will give up because of this (25/30??? WTF??). I see them staying just about where they would have been before.

Anyway, we'll just have to see what happens.

[Schmidty]

Dola.

I meant "Tayshaun can direct the offense as well as most PGs, so that's not an issue, and when Rip or AI aren't on the floor, Stuckey be the PG."

[bosshogg23]

Maybe McDyess comes back, maybe not. Maybe this helps the team, maybe it hurts, we will know soon enough. My biggest question is still why now? This type of trade should have been made at least six weeks ago so both teams could have a preseason with their new players. Something had to change for one or both teams to agree to the deal now. It will be interesting in the morning to see what the local papers say happened behind the scenes to push this deal.

[Gary Gorski]

Maybe McDyess comes back, maybe not. Maybe this helps the team, maybe it hurts, we will know soon enough. My biggest question is still why now? This type of trade should have been made at least six weeks ago so both teams could have a preseason with their new players. Something had to change for one or both teams to agree to the deal now. It will be interesting in the morning to see what the local papers say happened behind the scenes to push this deal.

From what I've read the holdup was that Denver wanted Prince in the deal up until now.

[bulletsponge]

the most overrated star going to the most underachieving team.... yea this will work well

[Groundhog]

Wow.

If I were Detroit I wouldn't trade Billups to Denver for AI and three first rounders, let alone giving up McDyess (even if he ends up back in Detroit) for no picks.

I guess Detroit really didn't think they were a championship contender. They aren't now, either, but I guess this is all about the cap space.

[stevew]

the most overrated star going to the most underachieving team.... yea this will work well

The best thing is, that this could work for either player/team.

[TroyF]

Spectacular trade for Denver.

AI is a glorified SG. He got his assists because of one reason: he held the ball for a long period of time and passed it when he was tripled. AI may be one of the single worst pick and roll players I've ever seen. I mean, words can't express how bad he runs that play. (and Denver with Nene and Melo should be a great pick and roll team)

Billups gives something Denver hasn't had in years. A true PG who can shoot the basketball.

As for AI, I like the guy and he tries. . . . but he's not a PG. He's a SG who can't create for others consistently. He can score. During AI's time in Denver, George Karl never got it right. In the games where Melo ran the offense, the team was 10x better than when AI ran the offense. Whenever someone other than AI set up the offense, Denver was a much better offensive team.

If Detroit uses AI as a 15 minutes a night PG and 25 minutes a night at the SG slot, they'll be much happier with his stint at SG. If they let him set up the offense 50% of the time, they'll regret having him and their offense will become stagnent.

Denver is a better team today than they were yesterday.

[bosshogg23]

Detroit just used up some of the cap room by giving Richard Hamilton a 3 year 34 million dollar contract. Full guarantee on the first 2 years, partial on the 3rd.

[Schmidty]

Detroit just used up some of the cap room by giving Richard Hamilton a 3 year 34 million dollar contract. Full guarantee on the first 2 years, partial on the 3rd.

WTF!?!?!?!?!?

[Rich1033]

RIP could opt out and they didnt want him to.

Denver is a better team for this year and maybe next, so good deal for them. Detroit is not a better team, but they are not really worse either. However, they do now have a chance to really improve next season and beyond.

One of those deals that will work out for both teams.

[DeToxRox]

My guess on that Rip deal is Rip will move to the bench, Stuckey at the 1, AI at the 2 and Tay at the 3. Rip will be instant offense and still play 30 minutes a game, but now gets paid regardless of his role.

Detroit needed this deal with AI. For one, people aren't going to the Palace. There were a crapload of empty seats the last two games, and this is a problem dating back to last year. AI will put people in the seats.

Also, Detroit is complacent. AI wants a title, so at least he can provide a spark in that regard.

Finally, I think Detroit has to make a splash this year in FA, and not in 2010. Detroit is not a desirable destination for guys like Bron or Wade or Kobe, because it isn't a big Media Market like Chicago, NY, LA. Those guys won't go to the midwest unless it's Chitown, and lots of big teams will have cap room in 2010 which could hurt Detroit.

This year, Detroit could get Boozer or the like, because they'll have a lot of cap room, and Detroit stacks up this year better then a team like Memphis with their cap situation. So we'll see what happens.

[Groundhog]

No way does Rip go to the bench? Surely he'd start over Stuckey, with AI at the 1 spot?

Boozer to Pistons is a good prediction, though I'm thinking he'd be better served teaming up with Deron for the foreseeable future. However, as a Cavs fan, it wouldn't surprise me to see him bolt the Jazz...

[DeToxRox]

No way does Rip go to the bench? Surely he'd start over Stuckey, with AI at the 1 spot?

Boozer to Pistons is a good prediction, though I'm thinking he'd be better served teaming up with Deron for the foreseeable future. However, as a Cavs fan, it wouldn't surprise me to see him bolt the Jazz...

Dumars LOVES Stuckey. Absolutely loves him. He thinks he is the PG of the future and they want him playing 30 minutes a night. I think Stuck is damn good, but I am not sold he is a legit PG. Regardless, they're going to give him every shot, which is why I am guessing he will play the 1.

[Groundhog]

Dumars LOVES Stuckey. Absolutely loves him. He thinks he is the PG of the future and they want him playing 30 minutes a night. I think Stuck is damn good, but I am not sold he is a legit PG. Regardless, they're going to give him every shot, which is why I am guessing he will play the 1.

I agree with you on Stuckey. I think he is a solid young prospect and he impressed me in the playoffs especially, but I'm not sure if he's a PG. He has the look of a young Billups which is I'm sure what Dumars is banking on, but still, quite a risk given the talent of Billups.

[DeToxRox]

I agree with you on Stuckey. I think he is a solid young prospect and he impressed me in the playoffs especially, but I'm not sure if he's a PG. He has the look of a young Billups which is I'm sure what Dumars is banking on, but still, quite a risk given the talent of Billups.

I think it's part of the reason Curry was named coach. He is going to play Joe's puppet, but he does know the game and the guys respect him. His offense is heavy on everyone being able to handle the ball, so really a true PG isn't needed in that sense.

Billups just made sense. He had to be the one to go. Too cumbersome a contract and he stood in the way of Stuckey.

We'll see what happens though.

It still is the East and with AI Detroit can still win the Central, and if we get bounced in the 2nd or 3rd round again, it's what I expected anyway going into the year.

[law90026]

Interesting read, if true, then Detroit has a plan. Damn, the Bulls may be screwed.

Pistons get Iverson now, LeBron later? - NBA - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AjAjM98CNeewe3Xn2kLIC0G8vLYF?slug=aw-dumarslebron110308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

[adubroff]

This is a better deal for Detroit than Denver. I wouldn't have wanted to have that much money committed to Billups. I'm not sure what AI will do with their chemistry but most of what you heard outta Denver was positive. I have always maintained that he needed to be put on the floor with a Tasyhaun Prince type player (big body so AI doesn't have to defend scary twos, can get him the ball). I think on paper it could work, but realistically most people thought Detroit was taking a step back this year anyway. I do know that AI will play hard and the last time he was paired with a strong defensive team he carried it to the finals. The league (and especially the conference) are different now and I'm not sure a repeat can occur, but it doesn't seem out of the question.

Long term, the idea of having the cash to sign Lebron (or Wade/Bosh/etc), seems a good one if you're not going to win this year and this made that more possible.

[stevew]

Dumars has been after AI forever. It seems more likely they'll keep him past this year.

[DeToxRox]

Dumars has been after AI forever. It seems more likely they'll keep him past this year.

Doubtful. Not with Stuckey and Rip under contract. I might buy it if Tayshaun gets traded but it's doubtful. Like I said earlier, Stuckey is Dumars lovechild. He is going to make sure nothing is in his way to play 30 + minutes a night, and with Rip locked up long term, there is no way AI will resign to be in a limited role.

Joe might sign him if AI will take below his market, but is AI going to take a deal below market?

No chance.

[law90026]

Joe might sign him if AI will take below his market, but is AI going to take a deal below market?

No chance.

Might depend on whether AI wants to win or whether he still wants to make money (which he should have tons of by now by all accounts). If Dumars can sell AI on the idea that there will be a super team in 2010 (LeBron, Hamilton, Prince), AI might bite if he wants to win a title.

[MrBug708]

What's the deal with Afflalo? Does he have a future in Detroit?

[DeToxRox]

What's the deal with Afflalo? Does he have a future in Detroit?

He is going to be a role player for the Pistons. He was awesome in the preseason and seemed to earn some PT, but we'll see how the rotation plays out. He will be used at PG, SG and SF depending on if the Pistons go small or not.

So far this year he has played 14 minutes vs Indy, 4 minutes vs the Wizards and 18 tonight vs the Bobcats. His problem is he has gotten 3 fouls in 2 of the 3 games.

So I think he has a future as a 7th or 8th man, with the possibility of an expanded role in the future if he develops his offensive game.

[Chubby]

Lebron in Detroit? Hahahahaha umm ok

[stevew]

Doubtful. Not with Stuckey and Rip under contract. I might buy it if Tayshaun gets traded but it's doubtful. Like I said earlier, Stuckey is Dumars lovechild. He is going to make sure nothing is in his way to play 30 + minutes a night, and with Rip locked up long term, there is no way AI will resign to be in a limited role.

Joe might sign him if AI will take below his market, but is AI going to take a deal below market?

No chance.

AI's probably up for a rude awakening if he thinks his market value is much more than 10m/season on a 3 year deal.

If Matt Geiger wasn't such a douche, Iverson would have been on the Pistons back in 2000. I think he'll sign a decent deal this summer and stay with the team for the rest of his career.

[DeToxRox]

AI's probably up for a rude awakening if he thinks his market value is much more than 10m/season on a 3 year deal.

If Matt Geiger wasn't such a douche, Iverson would have been on the Pistons back in 2000. I think he'll sign a decent deal this summer and stay with the team for the rest of his career.

Agreed there. If it financially makes sense. But if he wants 13-14 mil a season, he will obviously be elsewhere.

[Gary Gorski]

If Detroit uses AI as a 15 minutes a night PG and 25 minutes a night at the SG slot, they'll be much happier with his stint at SG. If they let him set up the offense 50% of the time, they'll regret having him and their offense will become stagnent.

I don't see how adding AI could make Detroit's offense any more stagnent than it already was. Detroit runs two sets - the "Rip curl for a jumper" and "the 5 guys stand around the perimiter and jack up jumpers all day". Nobody creates, nobody drives - over 80% of Chauncey's shots last season were jumpers (Rip also had 80% of his shots as jumpers) There's little in the way of transition when Billups is running the point- it's just a stale offense and has been for years. Their scoring in the playoffs last year was pathetic. The only reason it didn't matter before was because they played their ass off on defense which again, they haven't done for years. I also don't think they're going to play AI 40 minutes. I would expect more around the 33-35 range until maybe the playoffs.

The Pistons needed a superstar, go to player and now they have one. I think Iverson, playing with a solid supporting cast and a chip on his shoulder, will be extremely productive for this season and gives us a better chance to get not only back to the ECF but to the Finals. I think it's a good trade for Denver too though - now just imagine if they hadn't given Camby away for nothing.

[Gary Gorski]

Lebron in Detroit? Hahahahaha umm ok

Depends what he wants - if its all about being in a major world market then Detroit stands no chance. If he wants to win Jordan-like numbers of championships then I would think the Pistons would be a great fit. They should have enough space to sign a decent player next offseason and then have the necessary space left in 2010 for LeBron (or maybe someone like Bosh).

[TroyF]

I don't see how adding AI could make Detroit's offense any more stagnent than it already was. Detroit runs two sets - the "Rip curl for a jumper" and "the 5 guys stand around the perimiter and jack up jumpers all day". Nobody creates, nobody drives - over 80% of Chauncey's shots last season were jumpers (Rip also had 80% of his shots as jumpers) There's little in the way of transition when Billups is running the point- it's just a stale offense and has been for years. Their scoring in the playoffs last year was pathetic. The only reason it didn't matter before was because they played their ass off on defense which again, they haven't done for years. I also don't think they're going to play AI 40 minutes. I would expect more around the 33-35 range until maybe the playoffs.

The Pistons needed a superstar, go to player and now they have one. I think Iverson, playing with a solid supporting cast and a chip on his shoulder, will be extremely productive for this season and gives us a better chance to get not only back to the ECF but to the Finals. I think it's a good trade for Denver too though - now just imagine if they hadn't given Camby away for nothing.


1) Iverson had a chip on his shoulder when he came to Denver. He's a selfish basketball player. When Iverson had 6 or more assists in a game, Denver won 69% of their games last year. When he had 5 or less they sucked horribly. 6 assists isn't a big number with the way the Nuggets played last year. They played the second fastest pace in the league to GS. We were clearly a better team when AI passed the ball, yet he didn't do it. Go figure. At first I was pissed off at AI, but then I calmed down about him. He is what he is. I think he tries, he's just not a great guy at involving others. He's at his best with himself and four scrubs on the floor, where he can shoot, shoot, shoot.

2) Camby being gone is the best thing to happen to the Nuggets in years. The only problem is we don't know if Nene can stay healthy. If Nene is healthy, the Nuggets are a far better basketball team.

Last year the Nuggets played the Lakers 7 times including the playoff sweep. The Lakers never once shot under 46% from the floor. Three times, they shot over 50% from the floor. Camby played in every game. Why did they shoot so well if the messiah of defense is back there? A few reasons: 1) The Nuggets ridiculously small backcourt made it easy for Kobe. (Anthony Carter and Allen Iverson) 2) Camby doesn't play the pick and roll. Period. 3) Camby is a horrible man on man defender. He's a GREAT help defender. Maybe the best in basketball. But he freelanced more than anyone on the court.

Denver played the Lakers on Saturday night and held them to 38% shooting. How did they do it? simple. They stayed in front of their man, they forced tough shots. Nene dominated on the defensive end in man to man situations. (Bynum scored 4 points)

They lost the game for a few different reasons. The rebounding was bad. (but with Camby last year, the rebounding wasn't good, the Nuggets just don't match up that well with the Lakers size) The Lakers got a lot of FT attempts. 43 to be exact.

But the biggest reason the Nuggets lost the game is the offense stagnated. Carmelo, playing his first game from the suspension, struggled with his shot. (he had a sensational passing game however, the six assists don't tell the tail there) They couldn't get the ball into any kind of sets. Down the stretch, our offense was garbage.

Chauncey is going to improve the perimeter defense. He's going to run the offense and with him and JR starting and being able to drain threes, Melo and Nene will be freed up more inside. Chauncey can also run a successful pick and roll.

I'm not saying AI and Camby aren't good players. They each do amazing things and they are fun to watch. But after watching them play day in day out, I can tell you that the nationwide perception of the two players (as well as the Nuggets team) is wrong. I also understand this doesn't make the Nuggets some top 4 playoff contender in the West. They are better than the 10 place prediction most people had for them at the start of the year, but not so much better any of the contenders need to panic about them. Besides, this is the Nuggets. They haven't had the typical run of bad luck yet this year. Nene will go down for 50 games at some point.

But the one good thing for us is that we can rely on Dumars to help make us better. He took Darko instead of Melo, saving us Nuggets fans 4 years of a horrible Euro stiff. And now he sends Chauncey home and gives the organization one of their best PG's ever. Not that Detroit won't be better, they will. but they'd better limit AI's PG duties. Mark my words Gary, if they give him the reigns at the PG slot, they will regret it.

[Gary Gorski]

2) Camby being gone is the best thing to happen to the Nuggets in years. The only problem is we don't know if Nene can stay healthy. If Nene is healthy, the Nuggets are a far better basketball team.

Last year the Nuggets played the Lakers 7 times including the playoff sweep. The Lakers never once shot under 46% from the floor. Three times, they shot over 50% from the floor. Camby played in every game. Why did they shoot so well if the messiah of defense is back there? A few reasons: 1) The Nuggets ridiculously small backcourt made it easy for Kobe. (Anthony Carter and Allen Iverson) 2) Camby doesn't play the pick and roll. Period. 3) Camby is a horrible man on man defender. He's a GREAT help defender. Maybe the best in basketball. But he freelanced more than anyone on the court.

They lost the game for a few different reasons. The rebounding was bad. (but with Camby last year, the rebounding wasn't good, the Nuggets just don't match up that well with the Lakers size) The Lakers got a lot of FT attempts. 43 to be exact.

I guess if that's the opinion of fans in Denver that's fine but how does giving away the guy who lead the league in blocks and was second in rebounding make your rebounding or interior defense situation better? You really are going to prefer Nene - a guy who has played in 81 games...in the last three seasons combined and has never averaged more than 7 boards and 1 block in his best season while Camby has averaged more than 10 boards and 3 blocks per game since 2004. Camby is a 4 (6'11, 235) - of course he's going to struggle man on man in the post against someone the likes of Bynum who has 50 pounds on him or someone like Yao who has 75 pounds and 7 inches on him. I think you're right - you needed a different 5 but how does giving up Camby help that? Camby is like you said, an excellent help side defender/shot blocker, and he's a great rebounder (had 17 boards twice in the Lakers playoff series) so why not find a way to use that as an advantage and let him play the weaker offensive option of the 4/5 on the opponent and try to get another big man in there?

Chauncey is going to improve the perimeter defense.
I really hope you're not counting on this. Chauncey hasn't been a good perimeter defender since they changed the hand check rules. He's a big, strong guard - he can use that to his advantage offensively to post up smaller guards but on defense its a liability. Hell I was watching the Wizards game the other night and Juan Dixon was going by him with ease. Chauncey is going to help offensively to keep things more under control and to distribute the ball but unless the mountain air makes him quicker then he's not going to improve your perimeter defense.


But the one good thing for us is that we can rely on Dumars to help make us better.

I guess you better hope for that because Denver management certainly hasn't been able to do that. I have to wonder if you're going to like this deal as much in 2010 when you're paying a 35 year old Chauncey Billups 13.15 million to go along with Nene's 11.36 million, Kenyon Martin's 16.5 million (he would be stupid to opt out of his contract - he's not getting another paycheck like that) and of course Melo and his 17+ million. That's 58+ million on four players - one who will be 35 and two who will probably spend more time on the injured list than on the floor between now and then. That's not even counting whatever JR Smith is making then. Meanwhile the Pistons have their core group of Rip, Tayshaun, Stuckey, Amir and Maxiell plus a boatload of cap space for the next two years of an incredibly deep FA pool.

[DeToxRox]

I do think people here don't understand how bad Chauncey has gotten defensivley. Rondo took it to him in the ECF whenever he needed to. That was a second year guy on a 10 plus year vet. He is too bulky and lost his first step. He still is good but he lost a lot of his explosion.

[JeeberD]

It's like 2000 all over again! I wonder if the Nugs are going to bring back Nick the Brick, Raef, and Ron Mercer?

[Samdari]

I don't think you understand what I'm saying - He won't play like a PG, but he will have to be at the PG position. Tayshaun can direct the offense as well as most PGs, so that's not an issue, and when Rip or AI aren't on the floor, Stuckey be the PG.

Honestly, I think you are being waaaay, over-the-top about the games they will give up because of this (25/30??? WTF??). I see them staying just about where they would have been before.

Anyway, we'll just have to see what happens.

I understand what you are saying. Someone has to BE the PG though. If AI is there its him. Tayshaun is a good ball handling and passing SF. Have him run the point and you'd see 12 turnovers a game. Prince cannot run a team as well as most PGs, and it most definitely is an issue.

If AI is the PG, then the Pistons are playing without one, and Detroit will not make the playoffs. I have seen enough of AI as PG to stand behind the 20-25 games worse prediction.

Philadelphia decided Eric Snow was a better PG than AI.

Denver decided Anthony Carter was a better PG than AI.

There is a reason for that. You cannot win games with AI (or noone) playing the PG position. Period. Every game he starts there, you lose.

The Pistons at least have something that Philly and Denver did not - a young talented PG to throw in there.

I am with Troy, as a Nuggets fan, I am ecstatic at this deal. And I think the Pistons are a far worse team for it.

[Samdari]

I do think people here don't understand how bad Chauncey has gotten defensivley. Rondo took it to him in the ECF whenever he needed to. That was a second year guy on a 10 plus year vet. He is too bulky and lost his first step. He still is good but he lost a lot of his explosion.

Even at that, he'll make the Nuggets better on defense right away, and AI will make the Pistons far worse.

[Gary Gorski]

If AI is the PG, then the Pistons are playing without one, and Detroit will not make the playoffs. I have seen enough of AI as PG to stand behind the 20-25 games worse prediction.


Come on, you cannot be serious. You're going to tell us that with a lineup of Iverson, Hamilton, Prince, Johnson, R. Wallace and Stuckey, Maxiell (and eventually probably McDyess) from the bench that they will win 34-39 games and finish 9th or worse in the conference? 37 wins was enough last year for Atlanta to make the playoffs in the juggernaut known as the East.

Tell me, how did Denver win 45 and 50 games when AI was playing the point at least some of the time and if he didn't play point that often then how can you have seen enough to say that running the point takes the Pistons from EC finalists to a lottery team?

[Samdari]

Come on, you cannot be serious. You're going to tell us that with a lineup of Iverson, Hamilton, Prince, Johnson, R. Wallace and Stuckey, Maxiell (and eventually probably McDyess) from the bench that they will win 34-39 games and finish 9th or worse in the conference? 37 wins was enough last year for Atlanta to make the playoffs in the juggernaut known as the East.

Tell me, how did Denver win 45 and 50 games when AI was playing the point at least some of the time and if he didn't play point that often then how can you have seen enough to say that running the point takes the Pistons from EC finalists to a lottery team?

Philadelphia tried him at the point, and then moved him to avoid losing more games.

Denver tried him at the point and then moved him to avoid losing more games.

Everyone keeps asking me to defend my views without answering my question - do you think AI is suddenly going to develop into a team oriented, pass first PG? Do you think that he's suddenly going to be able to win games at that position?

How did Denver win 45 and 50 games? By moving him away from the point. Its terrible. It takes all flow away from the offense at all. He's not interested in nor good at running an offense, or learning where and when teammates like the ball to get shots. He's the rare player who makes everyone around him worse. You end up with 4 guys standing around watching for 20 seconds while AI dribbles around and then takes a bad shot. Or passes it to a stunned teammate with 1-2 seconds left on the clock and have said teammate take the bad shot.

For those of you impressed with the 7 assists, repeat the above bad pass scenario 20 times a game, make 30% of them, and you get 7 assists. You lose, but get 7 assists. He's not bad leading the break, so if you fast break a lot (as Denver did) you probably get a lot of assists that way.

OK, maybe in that conference, 20-25 games and out of the playoffs is not realistic. Mostly because I think they will not continue the "AI as starting PG" experiment beyond 10 games once they see it in action. If they do continue the insanity of AI as starting PG the rest of the season, yes, I think they'll be brutally bad. The lineup you list won't be as good as it sounds, as you don't have those players (Rip, Sheed, Prince) playing anywhere near their capabilities.

[Gary Gorski]

Philadelphia tried him at the point, and then moved him to avoid losing more games.

Denver tried him at the point and then moved him to avoid losing more games.

Everyone keeps asking me to defend my views without answering my question - do you think AI is suddenly going to develop into a team oriented, pass first PG? Do you think that he's suddenly going to be able to win games at that position?

How did Denver win 45 and 50 games? By moving him away from the point. Its terrible. It takes all flow away from the offense at all. He's not interested in nor good at running an offense, or learning where and when teammates like the ball to get shots. He's the rare player who makes everyone around him worse. You end up with 4 guys standing around watching for 20 seconds while AI dribbles around and then takes a bad shot. Or passes it to a stunned teammate with 1-2 seconds left on the clock and have said teammate take the bad shot.

Philadelphia had crap around him for most of his career there and surely he must have spent some amount of time at the point during games in the past two seasons - I can't imagine that every time JR Smith came on the floor that Iverson went off. That's what you're going to get here - Stuckey's going to get 25 minutes or so at the point. Last year Anthony Carter only got 28 MPG - its basically going to be the same kind of thing except that Stuckey probably won't be the starter. AI will "start" as PG but he's going to play less than half the game running point.

BTW, have you watched many Pistons games recently? It's not like they have a whole lot of flow or continuity on offense as it is. Curry has gone to implementing a system that tries to have players doing more cutting and not have the need for a traditional point guard. If Iverson is going to pound the ball into the floor for 20 seconds and then jack something up he's going to do it whether he's the point or the two guard.

[Samdari]

BTW, have you watched many Pistons games recently? It's not like they have a whole lot of flow or continuity on offense as it is. Curry has gone to implementing a system that tries to have players doing more cutting and not have the need for a traditional point guard. If Iverson is going to pound the ball into the floor for 20 seconds and then jack something up he's going to do it whether he's the point or the two guard.

AI probably did play a few minutes at PG last year. But very few. Smith only played 19 minutes a game last year.

Your astute observation that Philly had crap around him for years is a good one, and to me points out the reason that AI is a terrible fit for the Pistons. The best scenario for AI is exactly that situation, where he is the unquestioned best player, and his teammates expect and know he's going to dominate - not just lead, but dominate - the offense. He has spent the last season and a half proving that he does not share the ball well, and that was only with one other player demanding the ball. On a team where 4 or 5 other guys regularly expect shots? I just don't see it working well.

I think they'll be worse, and noone will see AI as the problem. He'll get his points, even a fair amount of assists, but somehow all of the other players will see their performance drop, the team will win fewer games than with Billups, NOT make the EC finals, and noone will think to blame AI.

Yeah, 3 years down the road, it will be tough to stomach paying Billups a gazillion dollars. But this year, I think they've made the Nuggets better and the Pistons worse.

[TroyF]

1) Camby isn't a 23 year old with a great history of being injury free. He's an ancient mariner on gimpy legs. And I guess you forgot the point about him sucking at pick and roll defense. That means he can't cover either post players with size on him OR guys who can hit the 14 foot face up. (remember Pau Gasol going off for 36 in game one of the playoffs last year? That stud Camby was on him. Trust me, Denver is better off without Camby.

As for Nene? He's a very, very good basketball player. He can't stay healthy, but neither can Camby. (the last two years aside, the guy is brittle) Either way, Denver will be better on both offense and defense now that Camby is gone.

2) Samdari is 100% right on AI. AI didn't make a single Nugget BETTER.

People forget what was happening with the Nuggets before the AI trade. Before the infamous NY brawl.

JR was averaging over 16 points a game and shooting lights out. (he was well over 40% from the three point line)

Carmelo was averaging over 30 points a game on 50%+ shooting. This wasn't over a 10 game stretch. They'd played 25 games. Neither player came close to approaching those numbers for a 25 game stretch until January of last year. What took place in January of last year? The Nuggets gave up and used a 32 year old journeyman as their PG instead of AI.

What player did AI make better on the Nuggets roster? And why did this player who only wants to win a title not pass the ball more when it was clear the Nuggets were a far better team when he did? I'm not even talking about 10 assists here. I'm talking about 6 assists. When he had 6 or more assists, Denver won 69% of the time. SIX ASSISTS, in one of the fastest paced tteam in the league. Are you kidding me? Denver was 14-3 when AI had 10 or more assists. They were 8-3 when he took 15 or less shots in a game. When he took 20 or more shots, they went 16-13. (or 16-16 if you count the playoffs)

So when you pass more and shoot less and your team wins more often, why do you pass less and shoot more close to triple the amount of time you do it the other way? Could it possibly be because he's a tad selfish and didn't want to sacrifice and pass more? Please.

As for the Nuggets, yeah. the contracts suck. But that's ok. We are better now and we'll deal with the contracts later. The NBA can be funny. Guys who make a lot of money in their last year seem to get value for rebuilding team.

But the things Chauncey does well will age well. See the floor, pass the ball, shoot the three. He'll be able to do all of that at 35. And as for defense, I understand he's slower, but you have to understand the Nuggets spent most of last year with Anthony Carter and Allen Iverson at the SG and PG spots. In the Lakers game, Anthony Carter was D'ing up on Kobe Bryant late in the game, because Karl didn't feel comfortable letting AI handle the PG duties with the game on the line.

Think about that one.

A 6'3" Chauncey, will be much better than what we've had. Just for kicks, here is what Hollinger has to say about Chauncey:

I'm not sure everyone understands quite what a devastating offensive player Billups is. He only played 32.4 minutes per game last year and Detroit was the league's slowest-paced team, so he averaged just 17.0 points per game.

But look at how efficient he was. Billups got his points on just 11.2 field-goal attempts per game because he was so good at both drawing fouls and making 3-pointers. Many players are good at one or the other; besides Billups, almost nobody is good at both. He had the second-best free-throw rate among point guards and hit 91.8 percent from the stripe, but he also was in the top third in 3-point attempts per field-goal attempt and knocked down 40.1 percent from there.

One wonders if he should launch more from downtown. In particular, Billups is so good at shooting threes from the wing that it's a wonder Detroit doesn't run more plays to get him shots from there. Over the past four years he's made a jaw-dropping 47.4 percent from either wing spot -- that's not a one-year small-sample fluke, people, that's an entire Olympiad and comprises over 600 shot attempts.

Oh, and when he's not killing you with his shot-making Billups is an exquisite point guard who ranked 10th in pure point rating.
------------------------------------------------------

You can take AI. I'll take Billups.

[stevew]

I really like JR Smith a lot. Hopefully he can continue to show maturity. Guy can certainly become a better scorer, and now he should get a ton more minutes. Especially with a true PG to dish it to him.

I'm glad to have Billips out of the conference. He usually killed us.

[cmp]

If AI is the PG, then the Pistons are playing without one, and Detroit will not make the playoffs. I have seen enough of AI as PG to stand behind the 20-25 games worse prediction.


That's probably one of the worst predictions I've seen in a very long time. Detroit will still win 50-55 games easily this season.

[Gary Gorski]

1) Camby isn't a 23 year old with a great history of being injury free. He's an ancient mariner on gimpy legs. And I guess you forgot the point about him sucking at pick and roll defense. That means he can't cover either post players with size on him OR guys who can hit the 14 foot face up. (remember Pau Gasol going off for 36 in game one of the playoffs last year? That stud Camby was on him. Trust me, Denver is better off without Camby.

As for Nene? He's a very, very good basketball player.

Like I said, if Nene is so fantastic why not put him on the better player of the 4 or 5 and let Camby guard the guy who is less of a threat or even mix in some zone? I don't know what you're basing your assessment of Nene on but I've certainly never seen anything in his career to make me think he was a very, very good player. I don't see him and Martin (assuming the small chance both stay healthy) have any more success against the Gasol/Bynum or Stoudamire/O'Neal tandems.

Could it possibly be because he's a tad selfish and didn't want to sacrifice and pass more? Please.

Iverson has always been a shoot first player and he still probably will be. We don't have an offensive player like Anthony though so its fine if Iverson is option one. I have a feeling that if he thinks he has a legit chance to win a title, which he knew he didn't have in Denver, that he might be willing to look for his teammates a little more. He'll have three other all stars on the floor with him in Rip, Prince and Sheed. I do think Iverson has been the kind of player interested in "getting his" and he had alot of competition in Denver for that with Anthony and guys like JR Smith. I also know that nobody plays the game harder than Iverson night in and night out and that kind of thing is appreciated here.

As for the Nuggets, yeah. the contracts suck. But that's ok. We are better now and we'll deal with the contracts later. The NBA can be funny. Guys who make a lot of money in their last year seem to get value for rebuilding team.

How is it ok that the contracts suck? Billups is an all-star calibur player and one of the finest offensive point guards in the league. He shoots the ball very well and doesn't make many turnovers. But he's going to slow the offense down (I don't know if that works to Denver's benefit or not) and get abused on the defensive end by smaller, quicker point guards. Like someone mentioned, Rondo killed us in the ECF. What is Paul, Parker and Nash going to do to him? But will all that money tied up in guys like Martin and Nene you're right, the Nuggets are going to have to rebuild so the next few years aren't going to be any better than what they have been and then you go back to the drawing board to build around Melo again.

Chauncey is a terrific player - I loved him here but and if we're talking 4 years ago asking which player do you want for the next 4 seasons I take Chauncey too. But I'm willing to take our shot this year with a hall of fame player like Iverson and then be the team in the best position the next two offseasons to add at least one all-star free agent to our team which will already have a core of Rip, Tayshaun and an improved Stuckey and Amir Johnson.

[Samdari]

he's going to ... get abused on the defensive end by smaller, quicker point guards.

I keep hearing this criticism. I don't get it. Read any of the analysis on this trade by people who watch more NBA than any of us, and the one point everyone agrees on is that this improves the Nuggets on defense.

You keep using the Rondo example to extrapolate that to Billups getting abused by smaller quicker PGs. But, while Billups did get beaten by Rondo, he generally defended pretty well last year. Rondo might be the quickest PG in the league.

Iverson got beat by everybody's point guard. He is probably the worst in the league (non-Marbury division) at guarding the other guys' PG.

[TroyF]

1) When Nene has been healthy (the rare times he has), he's been a terrific player. The best example I can give is during the 06/07 playoffs. (by the way, this will also give you a taste of Allen Iverson's play)

During the 5 games that year, Nene averaged 15 points and 8 rebounds per game. he shot 58% from the floor and took 10 shots a game.

Carmelo Anthony torched Bruce Bowen that series. He averaged 27 points a game on 48% shooting and took 19 shots a game.

Allen Iverson ran the point in the series. (Blake was the PG in name only, he was in there as another ball handler/talller defensive player) AI averaged 23 points a game in the series. He shot the ball 23 times a game.

So Melo and Nene were tearing it up and yet AI felt the need to continue driving in and getting his shot blocked over and over and over again. In game 4 of the series, Carmelo went 11-18, Nene went 7-9 and AI went 9-25. So the two other weapons we had make 18 shots in 27 attempts and AI makes 9 in 25. I wonder who should have had more shots? (FWIW, in that playoff series, when Nene stepped off the court, the Nuggets averaged 17 points less per 100 possessions, stunning)

That second half of 06/07 was really the only time Nene has had a good run of health in his career. During the final 38 games of the year, he averaged 15 points, 8 boards a game on 64% shooting.

As for the Nuggets, don't worry about our rebuilding issues. I'm a Nuggets fan, I'm used to it. JR and Melo are two premier scorers and they are both locked up for a few more years. Nene is locked up as well. (though his health will determine how good that deal is) A starting lineup of Chauncey, JR, Melo, KMart and Nene is a pretty solid lineup. We'll be much, much improved in the short term and worry about the salary issues later on.

Detroit is solid. Dumars made some great moves. This one? I don't think it's so. I think you'll regret giving up Billups. Pace factor is such a huge thing in basketball, and few people understand it. For example, last year the Nuggets finished 11th in offensive efficiency and 9th in defensive efficiency. Detroit was 4th in defense efficiency and 8th in offensive efficiency. Detroit ranks #1 in offensive efficiency this year. (they did play one game without Chauncey)

Detroit was not a poor offensive team. Quite the opposite, they were pretty damned good. And the Nuggets aren't nearly as horrible as people think they are on that end. But to each their own. We'll continue the debate later on. Lets see how AI does and how the nuggets look with Chauncey.

I, for one, am thrilled with the two major moves the Nuggets have made. I'm going to enjoy having a real life PG and seeing Melo, JR and Nene with a guy who looks to set them up as opposed to shooting it himself. Nene's health is the big concern. But if he's healthy, I think we'll surprise a lot of people this year.

[MikeVic]

Don't mean to chime in, but reading "fantastic" and "15 points and 8 boards" run a bell with me. :) I would not call that stat line fantastic. It's good for a center these days, but fantastic would be a minimal double-double average for myself.

[TroyF]

Don't mean to chime in, but reading "fantastic" and "15 points and 8 boards" run a bell with me. :) I would not call that stat line fantastic. It's good for a center these days, but fantastic would be a minimal double-double average for myself.


Keep in mind he was playing with Camby grabbing a ton of boards, AI/JR/Melo taking over 50 shots a game AND he did it in 30 minutes a night. He also plays terrific defense. Get him up to around 35 minutes a night and he'll be in the 17-10 range, along with great D. That makes him a very solid center in the league.

Look, don't take my word for it. Just watch the guy over the next few weeks. (or as long as his health holds out) Look at how well Denver plays with him vs. without him. It's a huge difference.

[cmp]

I keep hearing this criticism. I don't get it. Read any of the analysis on this trade by people who watch more NBA than any of us, and the one point everyone agrees on is that this improves the Nuggets on defense.

You keep using the Rondo example to extrapolate that to Billups getting abused by smaller quicker PGs. But, while Billups did get beaten by Rondo, he generally defended pretty well last year. Rondo might be the quickest PG in the league.

Iverson got beat by everybody's point guard. He is probably the worst in the league (non-Marbury division) at guarding the other guys' PG.

How many Detroit games did you watch? I probably watched about 85% of the games last season and have seen it wasn't just Rondo that beat him, it happens more often than not. His defense has been on a major decline. Yes, it probably will be an upgrade for Denver on the defensive side but it's not the major boost you're trying to make it out to be.

Maybe this trade does improve Denver this season. But it won't get them a title. In two or three years Denver fans won't look back at this trade as favorably as they do today. Detroit on the other hand I don't feel are any worse after the deal. Stuckey is the future at point for them, Billups wasn't. Dumars has put together a team that can still win this year and have the flexibility to make moves in the future so they can keep winning.

[adubroff]

What player did AI make better on the Nuggets roster? And why did this player who only wants to win a title not pass the ball more when it was clear the Nuggets were a far better team when he did? I'm not even talking about 10 assists here. I'm talking about 6 assists. When he had 6 or more assists, Denver won 69% of the time. SIX ASSISTS, in one of the fastest paced tteam in the league. Are you kidding me? Denver was 14-3 when AI had 10 or more assists. They were 8-3 when he took 15 or less shots in a game. When he took 20 or more shots, they went 16-13. (or 16-16 if you count the playoffs)



This 6 number is nonsense. In the games they lost last year, AI averaged 19.2 shots vs 19 in the games they won. He had .15 more turnovers per game. That's a combined .35 extra "non passes" caused by AI. Overall, he had one fewer assist per game in losses than wins, so there is about a .65 assist gap here that was largely caused by his teammates either not getting him the ball as much or by his teammates not converting when he did.

Also, the team as a whole was better when he was playing PG, by a fairly healthy margin.

Allen Iverson of the Denver Nuggets, stats by playing position from 82games.com (http://www.82games.com/0708/07DEN4C.HTM)

This is probably a large reason why the team had issues when he didn't get assists, because they were playing a PG who stinks (Carter) and couldn't get him the rock. It also probably had a lot to do with their defense with both of those guys on the court.

The statistic about Denver's win percentage in games where AI shot < 15 times is a bit self selecting too. When they got up big, they took him out and he didn't shoot as often. A few of the games also fall into the category where AI went to the line a boatload and contributed that way.

[Rich1033]

Ohh, zing. Anyway, its kind of mute since AI will start at the 1 but isnt going to spend that much time setting up and running the offense.

Bottom line, Stuckey is the future and Billups contract had to be cleared to make that happen. Im a fan of Billups and I wish him well. I will say that the one thing you will love about his game is that he never misses a FT. Its nice having that confidence everytime he gets fouled.

[TroyF]

This 6 number is nonsense. In the games they lost last year, AI averaged 19.2 shots vs 19 in the games they won. He had .15 more turnovers per game. That's a combined .35 extra "non passes" caused by AI. Overall, he had one fewer assist per game in losses than wins, so there is about a .65 assist gap here that was largely caused by his teammates either not getting him the ball as much or by his teammates not converting when he did.

Also, the team as a whole was better when he was playing PG, by a fairly healthy margin.

Allen Iverson of the Denver Nuggets, stats by playing position from 82games.com (http://www.82games.com/0708/07DEN4C.HTM)

This is probably a large reason why the team had issues when he didn't get assists, because they were playing a PG who stinks (Carter) and couldn't get him the rock. It also probably had a lot to do with their defense with both of those guys on the court.

The statistic about Denver's win percentage in games where AI shot < 15 times is a bit self selecting too. When they got up big, they took him out and he didn't shoot as often. A few of the games also fall into the category where AI went to the line a boatload and contributed that way.

And you can think that, but you are 100% wrong. The 82games.com stats can lie, because they are so dependent on other players. I love the site and use it a lot, but there just weren't enough minutes last year to give any kind of a representitive sample size with AI off the floor. He played 86% of the minutes. When he wasn't on the court, the game was usually over. (and usually, it was a blowout the Nuggets way. AI might leave the game with Denver up by 25 and we'd win by 12 with a finishing lineup of five stiffs.

Does the Nuggets offense shrivel up and die without AI on the court? Not really. Last night they scored 108 points and shot 38%. The Nuggets will score no matter who is or isn't on the floor. (so long as Melo, JR and Nene are healthy)

By the way, the 6 assist thing is huge. AI played over 41 minutes a game. He handled the ball FAR more than anyone else on the team, even when AC was playing the "point". (in quotes, because AC rarely actually set up the offense, he dribbled it up and dropped it off to AI) AI simply didn't create chances for other players around him. Not nearly at the level people thinks he does.

Thoughts from game 1's for both Chauncey and AI:

1) Chauncey played poorly and still gave Denver something we haven't had in years. A PG who could run the offense at the end of the game. He got the ball to the right people and made the right decisions in the fourth quarter. The Nuggets couldn't hit an open 15 footer to save their lives, but Billups ran the offense well in the fourth quarter and got the ball where it needed to be. On one possession, he cleared out one side of the floor and threw a post pass to Melo, who ended up being fouled. AI might have called that play in crunch time 2 times in the last 2 seasons.

2) I know people think Nene is a big, goofy stiff. But man is he important to this team. He's now averaging 15.8 points, 8.4 boards, and about 1.5 steals and 1.5 blocks a game. All this while shooting 64% and playing solid defense. He a much, much better player than people want to give him credit for being. Nene's PER this year of 21.40 is better than Yao, Al Jefferson, Ilgauskus, Sheed, Okur, Kaman, and Bynum to name just a handful of guys.

3) AI plays well and his team loses. Never seen that one before. In all seriousness, it's going to take the Pistons time to learn how to play with AI. I think their shooting percentages are going to be horrible for awhile. (and I'm not certain they'll improve a lot to be honest, I think every major Pistons player will take a hit in FG% with AI on the court. But they will adjust and play better down the stretch than they did last night. All of that said, I heard a lot of talk about Billups and his horrible defense. I don't think you realize how bad AI is going to be. When you asked me what we'd do against Parker, Paul or Williams, I had to laugh.

I think my favorite quote in the thread was this one:

I do think people here don't understand how bad Chauncey has gotten defensivley. Rondo took it to him in the ECF whenever he needed to. That was a second year guy on a 10 plus year vet. He is too bulky and lost his first step. He still is good but he lost a lot of his explosion.

Rondo took it to him in the ECF?

In the ECF, Rondo played 6 games, averaged 39 minutes a night. He averaged 9 points on 35% shooting.

Rondo played the Nuggets twice last year. He averaged 18 points a game on 61% shooting in 31.5 minutes a night.

I think it's you who don't realize how bad AI is on defense.

I won't say anymore on this until the quarter pole. Lets see how it plays out for both teams. I don't think detroit will miss the playoffs or be as horrible as samdari thinks they might be (though I see his reasoning for saying it after watching AI for 2.5 years) But I also think they have no shot at getting out of round 2 in the East this year with AI.

We'll see what happens.

[Gary Gorski]

Thoughts from game 1's for both Chauncey and AI:

1) Chauncey played poorly and still gave Denver something we haven't had in years. A PG who could run the offense at the end of the game. He got the ball to the right people and made the right decisions in the fourth quarter. The Nuggets couldn't hit an open 15 footer to save their lives, but Billups ran the offense well in the fourth quarter and got the ball where it needed to be. On one possession, he cleared out one side of the floor and threw a post pass to Melo, who ended up being fouled. AI might have called that play in crunch time 2 times in the last 2 seasons.

2) I know people think Nene is a big, goofy stiff. But man is he important to this team. He's now averaging 15.8 points, 8.4 boards, and about 1.5 steals and 1.5 blocks a game. All this while shooting 64% and playing solid defense. He a much, much better player than people want to give him credit for being. Nene's PER this year of 21.40 is better than Yao, Al Jefferson, Ilgauskus, Sheed, Okur, Kaman, and Bynum to name just a handful of guys.

3) AI plays well and his team loses. Never seen that one before. In all seriousness, it's going to take the Pistons time to learn how to play with AI. I think their shooting percentages are going to be horrible for awhile. (and I'm not certain they'll improve a lot to be honest, I think every major Pistons player will take a hit in FG% with AI on the court. But they will adjust and play better down the stretch than they did last night. All of that said, I heard a lot of talk about Billups and his horrible defense. I don't think you realize how bad AI is going to be. When you asked me what we'd do against Parker, Paul or Williams, I had to laugh.



I watched the Denver/Dallas game (mainly because Kidd and AC are on my fantasy team). Kidd scored 20 points - most of them on WIDE open shots. Say what you want about Iverson's poor defense but me thinks the Nuggets perimeter defense still blows - but it did make me happy to see J Kidd racking up the stats.

If you're looking for a smart, cool, calm guy who knows what the right play is with the game on the line then I don't know that there are many better than Chauncey and what makes that work is the fact that Chauncey now only has to be the guy to setup the play unlike in Detroit where he needed to be the guy to hit the shot. Iverson on the other hand is the guy who can hit the shot with the game on the line - something Detroit didn't have. I think both teams got something they needed there.

It's going to take Detroit some time to play with Iverson and some time for him to adapt as well. Detroit won two games with neither Billups or Iverson but with Will Bynum playing - I don't think it means that's the best lineup :) I don't like how Iverson drives into crowds on the baseline with nothing to do with the ball but I know he's going to committ an extra turnover or two that Billups doesn't but I think the tradeoff for a pure scorer is worth it at this point.

Nene looked good the other night too - I can't say that a 15/8 guy is a "great" player but he's certainly not a bum. Then again Dallas doesn't have a 5 man so who knows what his performance was worth.

In the end, as a Detroit fan, I think its a great trade for us. I don't know that Iverson gives us a better shot at winning it all this year than Billups but I know that he doesn't give us less of a shot and instead of being saddled with Billups contract for the next few years we've got a ton of cap room starting this coming offseason - I'm interested to see how it plays out. Maybe this is one of the rare times when both teams win in the deal.

[adubroff]

By the way, the 6 assist thing is huge. AI played over 41 minutes a game. He handled the ball FAR more than anyone else on the team, even when AC was playing the "point". (in quotes, because AC rarely actually set up the offense, he dribbled it up and dropped it off to AI) AI simply didn't create chances for other players around him. Not nearly at the level people thinks he does.



The numbers show that he either didn't get the ball as often in the games they lost or the other guys didn't convert. Assists don't happen in a vacuum. Well, nothing in basketball does but assists are especially dependent on your cohorts.

[TroyF]

The numbers show that he either didn't get the ball as often in the games they lost or the other guys didn't convert. Assists don't happen in a vacuum. Well, nothing in basketball does but assists are especially dependent on your cohorts.

If you watched him play, you'd have seen the difference. You'd also see how well (or in AI's case, how not so well) he usually sets up teammates.

[Gary Gorski]

I'll say this after watching two games with Iverson - the same problems that existed before the trade are still there. The second unit blows right now but the trade for Iverson can improve that. Nobody off the bench can consistently score. We don't need Iverson, Rip, Prince and Sheed on the floor at once (except in clutch situations). Iverson took less than 20% of the shots from the starting five last night - they need to move either Rip or Prince to the 6th man role - not because Iverson can't play point but because nobody off the bench can score. I don't even think it has anything to do with the point thing - they could start Iverson, Rip, Herrmann, Johnson and Sheed and then have Stuckey and Prince off the bench. There's not enough shots to go around with those four on the floor at once and of those four Iverson should be the first one shooting, not the last.

[DaddyTorgo]

I'll say this after watching two games with Iverson - the same problems that existed before the trade are still there. The second unit blows right now but the trade for Iverson can improve that. Nobody off the bench can consistently score. We don't need Iverson, Rip, Prince and Sheed on the floor at once (except in clutch situations). Iverson took less than 20% of the shots from the starting five last night - they need to move either Rip or Prince to the 6th man role - not because Iverson can't play point but because nobody off the bench can score. I don't even think it has anything to do with the point thing - they could start Iverson, Rip, Herrmann, Johnson and Sheed and then have Stuckey and Prince off the bench. There's not enough shots to go around with those four on the floor at once and of those four Iverson should be the first one shooting, not the last.

Problem is that Rip won't take a demotion to 6th man for ego-reasons (I'd assume), and Prince is the best defender on a play-by-play basis, and I'm not sure that his ego would let him accept a 6th man role either...

(just assuming here)

[Rich1033]

Yea, I agree. The starting 5 play very well to start the game. After that, BAM, the second unit comes in and they blow. They really need to mess around with the rotation. Rip needs to be the 6th man or someone needs to hit the bench early to return with the second team. Oh yea, and Hermann is not a viable option. Sorry, I like the guy, but no.

[DeToxRox]

The problem is Sheed. It's a lot easier for everyone else to score if he's playing at the rim but he flat out refuses to do it anymore. We have four guys around the 3 point line waiting for a play to develope, and a work in progress offensivley in Amir in the paint. How are you going to get anything going that way?

[Gary Gorski]

Oh yea, and Hermann is not a viable option. Sorry, I like the guy, but no.

I disagree - the guy is a gold medalist and look what he did in 2006 when he got some significant playing time for the Bobcats. The last month of that season he had 8 games with 20+ points, including one 30 point, 9 rebound outing. The problem is that Flip wouldn't play him and Curry now seems willing to go to him but judges him based on the first shot he puts up. If he hits, he'll roll with him and usually good things happen but if he throws up a brick he's sent to the bench for most if not all the rest of the game. The guy can play but he needs consistent minutes to show it.

[stevew]

If McDyess turns down legitimate offers here, to sign for the Pistons for less, they really need to re-evaluate this whole "cut, buyout, return to team thing" that they've got going on. I expect the Cavs will attempt to make some kind of legit offer, obviously they have much more to spend than the Pistons do right now.

And I mean, I guess Antonio has the right to sign wherever he wants. But really, he should be banned from going back to his team of origin for one financial year. I mean, it violates the spirit of the salary cap, and all that junk. But whatever.


And it isn't just this one time, this type of shit has happened too many times of late, and I'm sure I ranted about it then when it happens. Even if it seems biased as hell cause I hate the Pistons and like the Cavs.

[Rich1033]

I dont know, I have seen Hermann throw up brick after brick and be left in for far to long in games. IMO he isnt the best defender and doesnt do much on offense besides throw up jump shots and look unsure of himself. I could be wrong, thats just my impression so far.

I have had a hard time watching Pistons games so far. It appears FSN bought the rights to all of the games this year(an extra 34 games for 70 total), but my cable provider has yet to agree to their new price. As a result, all the games are listed in my guide, but half are blacked out for me. The problem being that I dont know if a game is blacked out until it actually starts. Very frustrating and I end up watching the games on justin.tv.

I mean, it violates the spirit of the salary cap, and all that junk. But whatever.

The spirit of the salary cap is violated, raped, pillaged, and destroyed over and over every year. I think just about everyone will agree that a few things need to be changed.

[Gary Gorski]

I dont know, I have seen Hermann throw up brick after brick and be left in for far to long in games. IMO he isnt the best defender and doesnt do much on offense besides throw up jump shots and look unsure of himself. I could be wrong, thats just my impression so far.

I have had a hard time watching Pistons games so far. It appears FSN bought the rights to all of the games this year(an extra 34 games for 70 total), but my cable provider has yet to agree to their new price. As a result, all the games are listed in my guide, but half are blacked out for me. The problem being that I dont know if a game is blacked out until it actually starts. Very frustrating and I end up watching the games on justin.tv.

I had the same problem for the opening game but there was a big deal made about it in the papers and on the radio and the cable company got the deal done with FSN right after that.

Herrmann could be very useful - he's a high energy player and a pretty reliable shooter. The problem is I think he feels the pressure that when he goes in he needs to score right away or he's done for the night. I forget if it was the Celts or Nets game but he got put in, forced an awful three that wasn't even close and then that was it for the night. That's alot of pressure to go in cold and be expected to start lighting it up right away or else not get back in. Now's the perfect time to give him some legit PT and see if he can play like he did in 06 - its early in the season, McDyess is gone right now, Stuckey's out, Kwame blows. He had a couple nice games earlier - give him some PT and see what happens.


The spirit of the salary cap is violated, raped, pillaged, and destroyed over and over every year. I think just about everyone will agree that a few things need to be changed.

The salary cap isn't even a salary cap but honestly I don't mind. I like the fact that the NBA has a method of allowing players to stick with one team. I like the fact that while bigger market teams may not mind spending more over the cap than smaller market ones that the big ones can't simply just sign whoever they want from other teams. Baseball sucks like that.

[TroyF]

I'll say this after watching two games with Iverson - the same problems that existed before the trade are still there. The second unit blows right now but the trade for Iverson can improve that. Nobody off the bench can consistently score. We don't need Iverson, Rip, Prince and Sheed on the floor at once (except in clutch situations). Iverson took less than 20% of the shots from the starting five last night - they need to move either Rip or Prince to the 6th man role - not because Iverson can't play point but because nobody off the bench can score. I don't even think it has anything to do with the point thing - they could start Iverson, Rip, Herrmann, Johnson and Sheed and then have Stuckey and Prince off the bench. There's not enough shots to go around with those four on the floor at once and of those four Iverson should be the first one shooting, not the last.


Watched AI against the Lakers last night. I have to say that I'm stunned. He may have played that type of game 6 times in his 140 or so career games with the Nuggets. No forced shots, passed the ball, didn't force himself on the offense. . . made others better. It was a truly stunning thing to see. Maybe he's scared crazy sheed will shank him if he doesn't play right. :)

The Nuggets continue to play well with Billups, just like I expected they would. (I know, here comes a loss to Minnesota at home tomorrow night)

Billups is making his teammates better. He's settling the team down in the fourth quarter and the Nuggets are taking control of teams late. (including the shocker last night against Boston)

I think the thing I'm most loving is the lack of respect the Nuggets defense is still getting. Against Boston I heard the announcers yap for over half the game about how poor Denver's D has been. I hate to break it to people, but the Nuggets are 9th in the NBA in FG% against right now. They are 5th in the league in 3pt percentage against. That's even with the horrible numbers they put up against the Cavs. (who shot 57% against them in the worst game they've played this year)

Camby not being there has impacted their defense and just like I thought, it's better.

After the Lakers game last night, I'm really, really interested to see how AI continues in Detroit. Mjaybe it won't be the failure I envisioned it being. A large part of me is expecting he'll return to the selfish AI and the Pistons will feel the result. But maybe, just maybe, he'll play like the AI that should have existed in Denver. That'd make the Pistons a scary team. (and it'd have made the Nuggets a damned scary team too, but he never played that way in Denver)

[hoopsguy]

Simmons with some thoughts on the Billups-led Nuggets:
ESPN Page 2 - Sports Guy gets in his NBA reps (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/081126&sportCat=nba)


3. "Have you watched the Nuggs with Chauncey running the show? I forgot what a play coming out of a timeout looked like!" --Colby, Fort Collins, Col.


You're right -- lost in the Iverson/Detroit/Dumars lovefest was the dramatic impact that Billups might have on the Nuggets (lacking an elite point guard since Fat Lever), George Karl (looking relatively healthy for the first time in 10 years), Carmelo Anthony (more efficient), and the natural order of the team in general (from chaotic to orderly). The effect was instantaneous. Like putting the team through a car wash. Sometimes a player (especially a point guard) only needs to switch teams and impact the new one for everyone to realize, "Oh yeah, that guy's really good, I forgot." We forgot that Chauncey was still good. Not our fault because that whole Pistons nucleus had gotten stale, but still.


(By the way, Rip Hamilton now looks like Red after Andy escaped from Shawshank; he's 33-for-93 from the field since the trade and on pace to break the record for hang dog "I guess I just miss my point guard" looks. Some birds weren't meant to be caged, Rip.)

[Eaglesfan27]

Iverson missed practice today and faces a "hefty" fine from the Pistons. Also Stuckey will start in his place Friday:

ESPN - Detroit Pistons guard Allen Iverson faces fine after missing practice Thursday (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3730471)

[Samdari]

Did we mention he was prima donna?

By the way, just as predicted, every other significant member of the Pistons' has had their FG% go down since the trade.

[bosshogg23]

Allen Iverson is not an NBA point guard, at least not a good one. Contrary to popular belief, he does not drive and dish. His game is classic SG, come off screens catch and shoot, drive for scores, etc.

Stckey has to start at PG. Its the only way this trade makes sense for the Pistons - it gets Stuckey on the court more. Otherwise, they have traded one of the least selfish players in the NBA for perhaps the most selfish (non-Marbury division) and cost themselves 10-15 wins a year. When they miss the playoffs, Piston fans will be bemoaning the heady days of 50+ wins and losing in the EC finals.

Nice forecasting, Stuckey is starting, Iverson to SG and Rip to SF starting Tuesday. Pistons are 7-8 when Iverson plays including 1-4 at home.

Link (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081208/SPORTS0102/812080417/1127)

[albionmoonlight]

I know that ego prevents starting caliber players from being willing to come off the bench, but the best move for the Pistons, IMHO, would be for Stucky at PG, Iverson at SG, Rip at SF, Wallace at PF, and Brown at C. Then have Prince and McDyess play major minutes off the bench.

Prince would still get his minutes, of course. But it would seem better to have him out there to run the offense when Stucky is on the bench and to provide an offensive option when Rip, AI, or Wallace is on the bench.

[Gary Gorski]

One of our radio hosts here put it a good way last week - he said the Pistons need to let AI be AI. I think its been tremendously dumb that we traded for Iverson, a pure scorer, and yet have asked him to basically assume the role of Billups. Surely there had to be some PG with an expiring contract that was capable of dribbling the ball up the floor and setting up a stale half court offense if that's what they wanted. Let Iverson push it, let him create, let him play 40 minutes if he wants to. This isn't like Denver where he's got possibly a better offensive option to play along side (like he did Melo) - Rip, Prince, Sheed...these guys are tremendous secondary options but none of them are good enough to be a primary scorer. Sheed probably could be but it would require him showing up willing to play hard (and in the post) for 35 minutes a night every night and that's not happening.

I think this new starting lineup is just as bad as the previous one. I'll stick to my earlier quote and say that either Rip or Prince needs to go to the bench because there's nobody there that can score. If Curry was willing to take a stand and bench AI for a bit because he skipped a practice why can't he tell one of those two to stuff their ego and play the Manu Ginobili role?