The Obama Presidency - 2008 & 2012

[DaddyTorgo]

oh okay. i honestly haven't read all the various news stories versions of it. that makes more sense then.

[JPhillips]

Here's a great take on the story by John McWhorter. He's not always my cup of tea, but he writes from a somewhat conservative position and has argued that racism isn't the biggest problem for African-Americans.

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/mcwhorter/archive/2009/07/22/gates-is-right-and-we-re-not-post-racial-until-he-isn-t.aspx

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I'm going to take the point that the debate was shifted away from Obama's comments as an admission that he shouldn't have made the comments that he did. I could give a rat's ass who's to blame for the actual incident. My only point was to note that our President acted very unpresidential when queried on the matter.

[JPhillips]

I'm going to take the lack debate on Obama's suit as an admission that his suit was ugly. Obamaniacs teh sux!

[Flasch186]

and I would argue that what one views as 'presidential' or 'not presidential' has been bastardized by the last 16 years of 'presidential', partisan goggles, socioeconomics and a bunch of other stuff.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Or maybe no one wants to argue with you.

Edit: Oh wait, Flasch does.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I'm going to take the lack debate on Obama's suit as an admission that his suit was ugly. Obamaniacs teh sux!

:withstupid:

[flere-imsaho]

No, but yelling in public definitely is. And the people that get arrested for that tend to be yelling at police officers, because an officer has to be there to hear it for there to be an arrest.

Yelling in public is an arrestable offense? Really?

[DaddyTorgo]

Yelling in public is an arrestable offense? Really?

"Disturbing the Peace"

[molson]

Yelling in public is an arrestable offense? Really?

Every state has a disturbing the peace/disorderly conduct statute.

The one Gates was arrested under sounds like it was written 300 years ago (it may well have been):

"Chapter 272: Section 53. Penalty for certain offenses

Section 53. Common night walkers, common street walkers, both male and female, common railers and brawlers, persons who with offensive and disorderly acts or language accost or annoy persons of the opposite sex, lewd, wanton and lascivious persons in speech or behavior, idle and disorderly persons, disturbers of the peace, keepers of noisy and disorderly houses, and persons guilty of indecent exposure may be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than six months, or by a fine of not more than two hundred dollars, or by both such fine and imprisonment."

A more modern one, like Idaho's, reads like this:

18-6409. DISTURBING THE PEACE. Every person who maliciously and wilfully
disturbs the peace or quiet of any neighborhood, family or person, by loud or
unusual noise, or by tumultuous or offensive conduct, or by threatening,
traducing, quarreling, challenging to fight or fighting, or fires any gun or
pistol, or uses any vulgar, profane or indecent language within the presence
or hearing of children, in a loud and boisterous manner, is guilty of a
misdemeanor.

I have no idea why states can't or won't ammend these statutes to something more workable. You're obviously not going to arrest everyone that violates these statutes. And the second you make a choice - you open yourself up to criticisim.

[DaddyTorgo]

Every state has a disturbing the peace/disorderly conduct statute.

The one Gates was arrested under sounds like it was written 300 years ago (it may well have been):

"Chapter 272: Section 53. Penalty for certain offenses

Section 53. Common night walkers, common street walkers, both male and female, common railers and brawlers, persons who with offensive and disorderly acts or language accost or annoy persons of the opposite sex, lewd, wanton and lascivious persons in speech or behavior, idle and disorderly persons, disturbers of the peace, keepers of noisy and disorderly houses, and persons guilty of indecent exposure may be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than six months, or by a fine of not more than two hundred dollars, or by both such fine and imprisonment."

A more modern one, like Idaho's, reads like this:

18-6409. DISTURBING THE PEACE. Every person who maliciously and wilfully
disturbs the peace or quiet of any neighborhood, family or person, by loud or
unusual noise, or by tumultuous or offensive conduct, or by threatening,
traducing, quarreling, challenging to fight or fighting, or fires any gun or
pistol, or uses any vulgar, profane or indecent language within the presence
or hearing of children, in a loud and boisterous manner, is guilty of a
misdemeanor.

i hope that's not a dig on our fine commonwealth :rant:

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

So you can't swear around children in Idaho? Good to know.

[molson]

i hope that's not a dig on our fine commonwealth :rant:

Only the legislature :)

[Mustang]

http://tshirtgroove.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/except-for-idaho.jpg

[molson]

http://tshirtgroove.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/except-for-idaho.jpg

LOL - I wonder if I can get one for Connecticut.

[DaddyTorgo]

http://tshirtgroove.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/except-for-idaho.jpg

that's awesome - where'd you find that??? linky!!!!

[flere-imsaho]

"Disturbing the Peace"

Every state has a disturbing the peace/disorderly conduct statute.

But surely "disturbing the peace/disorderly conduct" is a little more than just yelling, right?

[JPhillips]

I love how the MA statute defines disturbing the peace as "people disturbing the peace".

[JonInMiddleGA]

But surely "disturbing the peace/disorderly conduct" is a little more than just yelling, right?

I wouldn't think so, and especially not when you're yelling at a cop who is simply trying to do his job like some sort of raving lunatic. Next time I hope they don't bother to respond to a call at this home at all, would be be highly poetic justice. And then we can get a whole different set of whining from the usual, err, suspects.

Obama's remarks were nothing more than purely racially motivated pandering from a blithering idiot and shows him precisely for what a worthless sack of shit he is.

[molson]

But surely "disturbing the peace/disorderly conduct" is a little more than just yelling, right?

As a practical matter, yes. As a practical matter, the rule is really, "If an officer tells you to knock it off, knock it off" and "don't screw with any civilian to the extent that it goes beyond our societal norms of what's acceptable (like blaring a radio in the middle of a residential street at 2AM)

But litterally, I think yelling loudly is covered in both statute examples. (As are activites that millions of people do all the time without being arrested). The problem with statutes being so broad is that any actual arrest or citation under it is going to be questioned. And it obviously does create the possibility of arbitrary racial enforcement, etc.

[Mustang]

that's awesome - where'd you find that??? linky!!!!

It is actually a t-shirt available from T-shirt hell. (I had to look for an alternate link since I can't get there from work and wouldn't post the link here... definite NSFW)

[DaddyTorgo]

It is actually a t-shirt available from T-shirt hell. (I had to look for an alternate link since I can't get there from work and wouldn't post the link here... definite NSFW)

gotcha...goodstuff

[RainMaker]

Someone want to tell me why the hell the President felt the need to comment on the local case involving the arrest of a Harvard professor at his home? While I'm not interested in arguing who was right and wrong in the situation, I REALLY don't think we need a president who feels the need to pull a Jesse Jackson and interjects himself into every small flare-up that allows him to gain more attention. Leave that to Jesse Jackson and his 'Rainbow Coalition' podium that follows him everywhere he goes.

By the way, the president didn't have a lunchtime conference yesterday, likely because he had an hour of primetime TV that night. 2/3.

Are YOU really upset about this? Or are the websites you read that tell you what to think the ones that are upset over this? It's just odd how everything you think is bad are the same exact things that are mentioned in the daily talking points by the Republican party.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Are YOU really upset about this? Or are the websites you read that tell you what to think the ones that are upset over this? It's just odd how everything you think is bad are the same exact things that are mentioned in the daily talking points by the Republican party.

Yes, the thought that we'd discuss topics in a political thread in a timely manner is such a foreign idea. I find it really odd that everything I mention that I think is good is ALSO mentioned in the daily talking points of various organizations/websites.

I don't use any sites as a barometer to what I think, but if it serves as a tool for you to attempt to minimize my opinions, feel free. If there's anyone that knows how to overgeneralize things and lump people into groups on this board without any real backing, it's definitely you.

[RainMaker]

Yes, the thought that we'd discuss topics in a political thread in a timely manner is such a foreign idea. I find it really odd that everything I mention that I think is good is ALSO mentioned in the daily talking points of various organizations/websites.

I don't use any sites as a barometer to what I think, but if it serves as a tool for you to attempt to minimize my opinions, feel free. If there's anyone that knows how to overgeneralize things and lump people into groups on this board without any real backing, it's definitely you.

It just comes across odd to me that your daily "irate" moment at the President just so happens to be the same thing that every right leaning website is "irate" about. It must be some giant coincidence though.

[JPhillips]

Yes, the thought that we'd discuss topics in a political thread in a timely manner is such a foreign idea.

Isn't this essentially what happened at the press conference?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

It just comes across odd to me that your daily "irate" moment at the President just so happens to be the same thing that every right leaning website is "irate" about. It must be some giant coincidence though.

Which is your usual MO in most debates. Lump poster X into a group and ridicule them for agreeing with that group rather than discussion on the merits of said topic. It's a relatively tired and uninspired method of debate that belongs in the Beltway and its partisan politics, but feel free to continue if discussing the topic itself is difficult.

[RainMaker]

My personal opinion is the President should have probably not said anything. There is really no reason to politicize an issue like this.

The cop is still a fucking bafoon. Bust into anyone's house and accuse them of breaking in and you'll find a lot of pissed off people. I don't know if it was racist at all, but definitely unnecessary. Cop should have apologized, put his tail between his legs and drove off.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Isn't this essentially what happened at the press conference?

Well, at least we're back on topic.

As stated before, there was nothing wrong with the president responding that he was aware of the situation and that the local law enforcement would handle it in the appropriate manner. But everything after that was out of line and not something that the president should be saying or doing. He had no business giving an uninformed opinion on the topic, especially when it comes to placing any level of blame. He also has no business commenting on flare-ups at the local level. He's the president, not a mayor.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

The cop is still a fucking bafoon. Bust into anyone's house and accuse them of breaking in and you'll find a lot of pissed off people.

Thanks for the fact-based comments, Mr. Obama.

[RainMaker]

Which is your usual MO in most debates. Lump poster X into a group and ridicule them for agreeing with that group rather than discussion on the merits of said topic. It's a relatively tired and uninspired method of debate that belongs in the Beltway and its partisan politics, but feel free to continue if discussing the topic itself is difficult.
I'm not lumping you into anything. Just saying it's not really a debate. You're just regurgitating what's on every right-wing blog.

OUTRAGE: President Obama Owes Sgt. James Crowley an Apology - Swamp_Yankee’s blog - RedState (http://www.redstate.com/swamp_yankee/2009/07/23/outrage-president-obama-owes-sgt-james-crowey-and-apology/)
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/34265_Obama_Plays_a_Race_Card_from_the_Bottom_of_the_Deck
Hot Air » Blog Archive » How not to win support from police unions; Update: Obama retreats; Update: Bill Cosby “shocked” by Obama’s remarks (http://hotair.com/archives/2009/07/23/how-not-to-win-support-from-police-unions/)

Why not just post links to them since your beliefs seem to match them identically on a daily basis? I'm just asking for a little independent thought in this thread man.

[Edward64]

Another perspective that I think most of us respect?

Bill Cosby ’shocked’ at Obama’s statement on Harvard prof’s arrest | csmonitor.com (http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2009/07/23/bill-cosby-shocked-at-obamas-statement-on-harvard-profs-arrest/)

Bill Cosby said he was "shocked" to hear President Obama weigh-in on the arrest of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. on a Boston radio show this morning. "If I'm the president of the United States, I don't care how much pressure people want to put on it about race, I'm keeping my mouth shut."

Oh, sorry. Saw that it was already posted.

[DaddyTorgo]

eh, i have no problem with MBBF bringing the subject up. I do think the level of "SHOCK" over it (namely by himself and Jon) is maybe a bit overstated though. I mean do I think it was a stupid thing for him to comment on at all and he had no business commenting on it. Yeah. But I hardly think it makes him unfit to be President or deserving of mass scorn or anything.

[cougarfreak]

Regardless of race, I'd think most police departments would consider it a failure to arrest a guy after you mistakenly think he's breaking into his own house. I'm sure Gates got heated and escalated the confrontation, but after the ID was shown the officer should have gotten out of there ASAP. His need to show who's boss has made this event a nightmare for the CPD.

Just to be clear, I'll take his word that in his mind race had nothing to do with it, but he still acted unprofessionally.

That's pretty funny, a guy that's an officer of the law should get out of somewhere ASAP, because he was following a call that someone was breaking into a house, shows up, and it ends up being the guys home? He should run because a guy is yelling at him about being a racist? I'm betting if the police don't show up, and Gates finds out about the call later, he is screaming that the police didn't check on his house being broken into because he's black. Obama has no business making the comment he did. I voted for him, I'm not racist, nor am I a "cop is right in every instance" kind of guy, but this is ridiculous.

[Dutch]

Are YOU really upset about this? Or are the websites you read that tell you what to think the ones that are upset over this? It's just odd how everything you think is bad are the same exact things that are mentioned in the daily talking points by the Republican party.

This probably goes without saying, but how is this different than the usual liberal angst on the other side of the fence?

[RainMaker]

This probably goes without saying, but how is this different than the usual liberal angst on the other side of the fence?
It's not. Partisians suck and are fucking up this country.

[jeff061]

Gate's is an idiot. I don't care how well respected he is, he is clearly in the wrong. Facts are being twisted to project an agenda unrelated to his arrest. I am happy this issue didn't get a thread all to itself.

A white guy would have been treated identically.

Scratch that, he wouldn't be arrested because he wouldn't be screaming at the cops as they were trying to leave. Then again, the same could be said about majority of people regardless of color. Which brings us back to my first sentence.

And Obama shouldn't have said anything if only because they are friends.

[Mustang]

It's not. Partisians suck and are fucking up this country.

Honestly, I rarely read political threads, but when I have I've never thought of you as a bastion of non-partisanship.

[ISiddiqui]

Dunno if its been said, but it appears on the "he gave his ID" front, there are conflicting stories. Gates saying he gave his Harvard ID and Driver's License, while Sgt. Crowley is saying Gates only gave his Harvard ID, which has no address on it.

[rowech]

Honestly, I rarely read political threads, but when I have I've never thought of you as a bastion of non-partisanship.

Agreed. RainMaker's views fit one side pretty easily.

[RainMaker]

Honestly, I rarely read political threads, but when I have I've never thought of you as a bastion of non-partisanship.
What side of the aisle am I on? I think my views are pretty mixed.

[RainMaker]

Dunno if its been said, but it appears on the "he gave his ID" front, there are conflicting stories. Gates saying he gave his Harvard ID and Driver's License, while Sgt. Crowley is saying Gates only gave his Harvard ID, which has no address on it.
Why would he have his Harvard ID and not his Drivers License?

[Mustang]

What side of the aisle am I on? I think my views are pretty mixed.

I would have checked Democrat personally or at least very heavily leaning.

[molson]

Dunno if its been said, but it appears on the "he gave his ID" front, there are conflicting stories. Gates saying he gave his Harvard ID and Driver's License, while Sgt. Crowley is saying Gates only gave his Harvard ID, which has no address on it.

If he showed his driver's license, he wouldn't have been able to get in the newspapers, increase his profile, or call a bunch of cops racist. He's a brilliant guy, I think he knew what he was doing.

It wouldn't seem that the officer would have the same motivation to lie. It's certainly possible that he just wanted to push around a rich, prominent black guy and hope that nobody would make a big deal about it. Though even at worst, the consensus seems to be he was just getting a little tired of being yelled at. All the trouble seems barely worth it for the cop, even if he's a raging racist.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

If he showed his driver's license, he wouldn't have been able to get in the newspapers, increase his profile, or call a bunch of cops racist. He's a brilliant guy, I think he knew what he was doing.

I'm not sure he needs to increase his profile. He's probably one the three most famous, if not the most famous, professor at Harvard. But you're sure he orchestrated his arrest in order to make waves.

People really want to fit him into some preconceived box that I'm not sure is the right fit. Not saying that he's blameless at all, but Gates is not Al Sharpton.

[Mustang]

Even if he showed his drivers license, had an oil painting of himself visible from the door, a carved marble statue of himself in a Greek discus thrower pose and a sign that said 'Gate's Residence', I'd fully expect the cops to still call it in.

[JPhillips]

Now that it's clear we live in a post-racial world I think I'll step away from this conversation for a while. Let me know when we're back to Obama being a socialist.

[molson]

I'm not sure he needs to increase his profile. He's probably one the three most famous, if not the most famous, professor at Harvard. But you're sure he orchestrated his arrest in order to make waves.

People really want to fit him into some preconceived box that I'm not sure is the right fit. Not saying that he's blameless at all, but Gates is not Al Sharpton.

Ya, what I said is probably taking it a tad too far. I'm sure he's not used to ANYONE questioning him, whether it be law enforcement or other faculty. Not any different than how a rich white man with a sense of entitlement might react to such a situation (except for the rantings about racisim).

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I think it's just a shame that the media has nothing else to report on and this has become the topic du jour. Ideological lines have been drawn. The cop is a racist/Gates is a race-baiter. I don't know much about the cop, but from what I've read he seems like a pretty good guy. I do know a bit about Gates, and he is a historical scholar who tends to take fairly measured views on things. All of that is getting lost though (and certainly Gates is to blame for it to some degree).

[RainMaker]

I would have checked Democrat personally or at least very heavily leaning.
I think if anything I go the other way. I'm against welfare, food stamps, and a lot of big government spending. I'm for a flat tax or at least making the current system much less progressive. Much less spending overall, although still spending wisely on things that progress our society (science, research, technology, etc).

Socially I lean to the left but probably more Libertarian than anything. I just think government should stay out of our lives for the most part. I'm still pro-death penalty and pro-gun rights (to an extent).

[RainMaker]

If he showed his driver's license, he wouldn't have been able to get in the newspapers, increase his profile, or call a bunch of cops racist. He's a brilliant guy, I think he knew what he was doing.

It wouldn't seem that the officer would have the same motivation to lie. It's certainly possible that he just wanted to push around a rich, prominent black guy and hope that nobody would make a big deal about it. Though even at worst, the consensus seems to be he was just getting a little tired of being yelled at. All the trouble seems barely worth it for the cop, even if he's a raging racist.

I don't think it was some big conspiracy. I think he's just a blowhard. I think a lot of us would be pissed if a cop entered our home and questioned our residency there. Considering it's probably a very white neighborhood, I could see why he'd be a little suspicious. His anger though should probably be toward the neighbor who called the cops. I mean the cop was just responding to a break-in call.

Anyways, there was no reason to arrest him. Sure the guy is a douche who wanted to stand on his soapbox, but the whole situation was kind of fucked up and the cop should have just left the scene and took an ego hit. I doubt the cop was as conversational as his report stated, while I'm also sure the guy was probably a bigger douche than he said he was.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I do think the level of "SHOCK" over it (namely by himself and Jon) is maybe a bit overstated though.

"Shock" might be overstating it for me. I'm shocked that Obama behaved in such a transparent manner, he's actually proven to be adept enough at being discreet in his biases to fool a fairly large number of people. That he shot off his mouth like another two-bit whiny ass know nothing that looks through a racial prism at the first opportunity doesn't even mildly surprise me, much less shock me.

Here's the big difference: I'd think a white-trash half wit or a direct descendant of the Rockefellers who went off a cop that was investigating a burglary at his home was just as equally deserving of being cuffed & booked as the black professor in the same situation. If this had involved a white homeowner, Obama wouldn't have said shit & neither would any of the other bedwetting handwringers ... unless of course the cop was black in which case we could hear how the white homeowner had a problem with a black in authority.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Saw the police report and read through it. After review, there's plenty of reasons Obama is better off staying out of this battle. The racism charges by Mr Gates occurred even before the ID situation. The officer asked him to come outside since Mr. Gates was inside when he approached the front door. Mr. Gates response was 'Why, because I'm a black man in America?!?!'.

I'd love to find a person who thinks the cop was the one instigating that situation. I'm sure we'll have charges that the cop was obviously a racist.

It appears that all network nightly news telecasts are also leading the news with this story and how this distraction has hurt the push for health care legislation (Rainmaker would have you believe it's because they're all trumpeting the banter of conservative blogs). Yet another example why Mr. Obama is better off to avoid comment when his friends do something stupid and concentrate on the important issues facing all of the citizens. As I stated from the start, just stop at the point where you say you don't have the facts and move on.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'd love to find a person who thinks the cop was the one instigating that situation. I'm sure we'll have charges that the cop was obviously a racist.

I'm sure we will but they probably won't be coming from the black police official who asked the guy to help train others in order to prevent racial profiling. He's already on the record about the character of the officer, calling him " a good role model for the young recruits in the police academy".

[Klinglerware]

His anger though should probably be toward the neighbor who called the cops. I mean the cop was just responding to a break-in call.


She happens to be a Harvard fundraiser. Whether she was in the wrong or not, I wonder how much her inability to identify a faculty luminary could hurt her credibility as a university representative.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Well, well. Now, instead of speaking 'without knowing the facts', President Obama decided instead of just being quiet on the whole matter, he should defend his comments, citing what 'his suspicion' was as far as what occurred. I guess it's a bit too much to ask a person to read the publicly available police report to find out exactly what occurred instead of commenting 'without knowing the facts' or based on 'his suspicion' on the event.

Note to Obama: Shut up. You're not doing yourself any favors.

Obama Defends Cambridge Police Criticism in Henry Louis Gates Arrest - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=8153681&page=1)

[miked]

Note to the world, who really cares? Gone in 15 minutes.

[DaddyTorgo]

Note to the world, who really cares? Gone in 15 minutes.

seriously. blown way out of proportion much?

[rowech]

She happens to be a Harvard fundraiser. Whether she was in the wrong or not, I wonder how much her inability to identify a faculty luminary could hurt her credibility as a university representative.

Not to mention not knowing what her neighbor looks like.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Note to the world, who really cares? Gone in 15 minutes.

Agreed. It's ironic that Obama's 'stupidity' by refusing to shut up is the only thing prolonging it at this point.

There were similar points made to what I said earlier in the following editorial. Basically states that it was silly for Obama to ever comment about this over some of the bigger issues that truly merit discussion when it comes to injustice. Also, he makes a similar point to mine noting how silly it was that this question was even asked of the president.

The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/07/is-this-the-instance-of-police-misconduct-to-obsess-about.html)

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

So, I don't want to get all conspiracy on anyone, but I was thinking about this. Obama either knew or had to strongly suspect he was going to be asked about this. That means, his answer had to have been preprepared. I think Obama also had to know the response his answer would get. So, there has to be a reason that Obama wanted to get everyone talking about this, and not about the other issues out there, right?

I mean, where is the mistake in that logic?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

So, I don't want to get all conspiracy on anyone, but I was thinking about this. Obama either knew or had to strongly suspect he was going to be asked about this. That means, his answer had to have been preprepared. I think Obama also had to know the response his answer would get. So, there has to be a reason that Obama wanted to get everyone talking about this, and not about the other issues out there, right?

I mean, where is the mistake in that logic?

Given the timid response from the White House staff afterwards, I'd say this was definitely off the cuff and not something that they wanted to see happen. This is what happens when the president abandons the TOTUS.

I'm not sure it distracted from the health care deadline debacle as much as it now adds problems in addition to what Obama was already dealing with.

[JonInMiddleGA]

So, there has to be a reason that Obama wanted to get everyone talking about this, and not about the other issues out there, right?

It's called pandering to the base, or in this instance, more like pandering to his core constituency. Nothing out of the ordinary about that for politicians really, he just slightly miscalculated the response it would get from other quarters.

In the end though, it's still accomplishes it's intended purpose. He makes the core happy, will be forgotten by softer supporters, and the vast majority of those upset by it would rather have died than vote for him anyway so he's not taking a big loss.

[Edward64]

I would have also said this name calling (which apparently HC started first on an ABC interview) was also beneath her ... but its NK, nothing else has worked.

N. Korea: Clinton 'funny lady, by no means intelligent' - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/07/23/us.north.korea/index.html)
BANGKOK, Thailand (CNN) -- North Korea launched a scathing personal attack on U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton on Thursday after she likened the leadership in Pyongyang to "small children and unruly teenagers and people who are demanding attention."

At a meeting of southeast Asian nations in Phuket, Thailand, a North Korean Foreign Ministry spokesman blasted Clinton for what he called a "spate of vulgar remarks unbecoming for her position everywhere she went since she was sworn in," according to the state-run KCNA news agency.

The spokesman called Clinton "by no means intelligent" and a "funny lady."

"Sometimes she looks like a primary schoolgirl and sometimes a pensioner going shopping," the statement said. Read other colorful insults by N. Korea

The verbal tussle between the two countries culminated with the reclusive communist state making it clear that six-party nuclear talks, stalled for over a year, were effectively finished.

[King of New York]

Given the timid response from the White House staff afterwards, I'd say this was definitely off the cuff and not something that they wanted to see happen. This is what happens when the president abandons the TOTUS.

I'm not sure it distracted from the health care deadline debacle as much as it now adds problems in addition to what Obama was already dealing with.

I'm sure it was off-the-cuff. Remember, he used to be a professor, which means that he is used to spouting improvised and ill-informed answers to questions on subjects that he knows nothing about. Trust me on this one--few academics can resist the urge to pontificate on anything and everything. It comes from spending one's life in front of captive, and frequently butt-kissing, student audiences.

I am not sure that this one is going away so soon--not if all parties dig in their heels.

[CamEdwards]

I saw this odd statement in that ABC News link:


The president said he understands the sergeant who arrested Gates is an "outstanding police officer." But he added that with all that's going on in the country with health care and the economy and the wars abroad, "it doesn't make sense to arrest a guy in his own home if he's not causing a serious disturbance."

What?

[jeff061]

Don't arrest black people or the economy wins!

[miked]

I'm sure it was off-the-cuff. Remember, he used to be a professor, which means that he is used to spouting improvised and ill-informed answers to questions on subjects that he knows nothing about. Trust me on this one--few academics can resist the urge to pontificate on anything and everything. It comes from spending one's life in front of captive, and frequently butt-kissing, student audiences.

I am not sure that this one is going away so soon--not if all parties dig in their heels.

Uh oh, somebody was given a C in college...look out.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Yeah, Obama is not doing so well in the public speaking realm the past few days. What is that even supposed to mean?

[Ajaxab]

Uh oh, somebody was given a C in college...look out.

If my memory serves, King of NY is part of the group of pontificators even if he isn't one himself. If anyone should know what professors do, it would be him. FWIW, I know exactly what he's talking about.

[miked]

Hmm...maybe it's the department. I can't remember when my butt was kissed, either by a student and definitely not by a colleague. Peer review's a bitch.

[Edward64]

Obama trying to calm this down with his surprise visit to the press corp. He had call the cop. A "teachable moment" on race relations.

I think he is acknowledging a poor choice of words/decision to elaborate his opinion during the Health Reform press conference.

[Edward64]

Obama trying to calm this down with his surprise visit to the press corp. He had called the cop. A "teachable moment" on race relations.

I think he is acknowledging a poor choice of words/decision to elaborate his opinion during the Health Reform press conference.

Just heard a replay of his impromptu statement to the WH press corp. Thought he did that well. Really hope the 3 of them end up doing the beer and moving on.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Just heard a replay of his impromptu statement to the WH press corp. Thought he did that well. Really hope the 3 of them end up doing the beer and moving on.

The problem at this point doesn't even involve the three main players. The only reason he continues to comment on this issue is because there's a lot of pissed off police union leaders on the horn asking him what the hell he was thinking. He still didn't apologize. He threw his friend under the bus while still sticking with his story that the police officer also acted inappropriately. Even the beer comment didn't go over very well. There was obviously some very sarcastic laughter mixed in with regular laughs when he was cracking jokes about this issue. It wasn't very funny.

It's honestly 'stupid' at this point. Man up and finish this issue with three words. I am sorry. It's really not that difficult and as has been noted in this thread, it's ridiculous that Obama has allowed this situation to escalate to this point.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Man up and finish this issue with three words. I am sorry. It's really not that difficult and as has been noted in this thread, it's ridiculous that Obama has allowed this situation to escalate to this point.

I'd say it's a different three words that would be needed to move toward fixing this: I screwed up.

He could say I'm sorry til the cows come home & there'll be a great deal of doubt about whether he's sorry he said it because he was wrong & completely out of line or if he's sorry simply because people noticed.

"I screwed up" is a good bit less unequivocal and while I might not believe he really believes it, he might be able to sell that better.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Is it "Stupid Off-The-Cuff Comment" week in the White House? Even the press secretary decided to join in on the dumb comments........

Obama's comments marked an abrupt shift in tone since Friday morning, when White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs dismissed a suggestion that the backlash from police groups could be distressing to the White House, given that Obama has enjoyed a positive relationship with the law enforcement community.

"I think the Fraternal Order of Police endorsed McCain," Gibbs fired back at reporters, referring to Obama's Republican opponent in the 2008 election. "If I'm not mistaken."

What the hell does that matter?

[molson]

What the hell does that matter?

Duh, the law enforcement community is on the "other side", so they're not the concern of this administration.

[BYU 14]

I'd say it's a different three words that would be needed to move toward fixing this: I screwed up.

He could say I'm sorry til the cows come home & there'll be a great deal of doubt about whether he's sorry he said it because he was wrong & completely out of line or if he's sorry simply because people noticed.

"I screwed up" is a good bit less unequivocal and while I might not believe he really believes it, he might be able to sell that better.

I agree with this, he did screw up and likely acted out of emotion because he is friends with the Professor.

The way I see this playing pre-comment was he called or received a call from Gates after the incident and got his side of the story, got a little pissed off and allowed that to influence a very poor choice of words. He should have just stopped after I don't know all the facts.

It really makes him look bad, when Crowley was selected by a black superior to teach a class on avoidance of racial profiling and he went ahead and commeted without even bothering to look into the sargeants background.

I had a discrimation case filed on me and I am married to a black woman for gods sake! If I hadn't kept a well documented history on the employee, including counseling, additional training provided and disciplinary steps I could have put my company/job at risk for doing nothing wrong and I feel this is similar to the situation Crowley is in now.

[King of New York]

Uh oh, somebody was given a C in college...look out.

It's far worse than that--I'm one myself :D and I work with them all day :mad:

[King of New York]

"The president said he understands the sergeant who arrested Gates is an "outstanding police officer." But he added that with all that's going on in the country with health care and the economy and the wars abroad, "it doesn't make sense to arrest a guy in his own home if he's not causing a serious disturbance."

That statement and the (lack of) logic behind it are worthy of W himself :lol:

[Flasch186]

The problem at this point doesn't even involve the three main players. The only reason he continues to comment on this issue is because there's a lot of pissed off police union leaders on the horn asking him what the hell he was thinking. He still didn't apologize. He threw his friend under the bus while still sticking with his story that the police officer also acted inappropriately. Even the beer comment didn't go over very well. There was obviously some very sarcastic laughter mixed in with regular laughs when he was cracking jokes about this issue. It wasn't very funny.

It's honestly 'stupid' at this point. Man up and finish this issue with three words. I am sorry. It's really not that difficult and as has been noted in this thread, it's ridiculous that Obama has allowed this situation to escalate to this point.

Im sure you felt the same way about past president's owning up to making what you consider a misstep right, regardless of whether or not I agree with you? BTW I couldnt write earlier but I also find it amazing that so many talking point blogs and opinion pieces get their opinions from you first as opposed to vice versa which you in turn dump into this thread as your own (which is fine cuz this is the thread for it).

[molson]

"The president said he understands the sergeant who arrested Gates is an "outstanding police officer." But he added that with all that's going on in the country with health care and the economy and the wars abroad, "it doesn't make sense to arrest a guy in his own home if he's not causing a serious disturbance."

That statement and the (lack of) logic behind it are worthy of W himself :lol:

I don't know, maybe officers should check the latest stock quotes and progress on Obama's health care plan before they make arrest decisions.

[Flasch186]

FWIW:

WASHINGTON – Trying to tamp down an uproar over race, President Barack Obama said Friday he used an unfortunate choice of words in commenting on the arrest of black scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. and could have "calibrated those words differently."

The president said he had telephoned the white policeman who arrested Gates, and he said the conversation confirmed his belief that the officer was a good man and an outstanding officer.

Obama said later that he had spoken to Gates as well.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090724/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_harvard_scholar

[JonInMiddleGA]

I also find it amazing that so many talking point blogs and opinion pieces get their opinions from you first as opposed to vice versa which you in turn dump into this thread as your own (which is fine cuz this is the thread for it).

Y'know, it does seem possible that the similarities could be largely coincidental.

I can guaranfuckingtee you that I haven't read a single political blog in days nor have I read anybody's op-ed piece on this subject but I doubt there's much difference other than colorful language in what I've said versus what they've said.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I'm sure that MBBF independently came up with the phrase TOTUS.

He's like a twitter feed for Michelle Malkin.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm sure that MBBF independently came up with the phrase TOTUS

Considering the phrase (which I can't say I've even heard/noticed before this thread) has it's own website (http://www.totusblog.com/), I'd say it becomes reasonably ubiquitous at some point.

I mean, there's a good many phrases that originate with various sources but eventually work their way into the lexicon naturally. Even that bastion of conservatism The New York Times used the reference (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/25/tales-of-totus-the-presidents-teleprompter/) as far back as March

[Flasch186]

Y'know, it does seem possible that the similarities could be largely coincidental.

I can guaranfuckingtee you that I haven't read a single political blog in days nor have I read anybody's op-ed piece on this subject but I doubt there's much difference other than colorful language in what I've said versus what they've said.

FWIW, your bat shit crazy IMO, and I respect your opinion so much more than MBBF's its not even in the same realm. ;)

Ill preemptively Duckman and say I understand that the feelings are mutual towards me for a bunch of people too :)

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Considering the phrase (which I can't say I've even heard/noticed before this thread) has it's own website (http://www.totusblog.com/), I'd say it becomes reasonably ubiquitous at some point.

I mean, there's a good many phrases that originate with various sources but eventually work their way into the lexicon naturally. Even that bastion of conservatism The New York Times used the reference (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/25/tales-of-totus-the-presidents-teleprompter/) as far back as March

Right, but your point was that you would agree with many of the things he was saying without reading these sites. I totally believe you. I think that you have independent thought, as oftentimes I'm surprised by your stand on certain issues.

I am *never* surprised by his stand, or what he chooses to post each day. With sufficient time, I'm sure I could program an MBBF-bot that would be nearly indistinguishable.

[RainMaker]

Considering the phrase (which I can't say I've even heard/noticed before this thread) has it's own website (http://www.totusblog.com/), I'd say it becomes reasonably ubiquitous at some point.

I mean, there's a good many phrases that originate with various sources but eventually work their way into the lexicon naturally. Even that bastion of conservatism The New York Times used the reference (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/25/tales-of-totus-the-presidents-teleprompter/) as far back as March

But your thoughts are independent. I have no doubt that you could give two shits what Michelle Malkin or Ann Coulter has to say on the topic. Others just read those sites and believe what they are told by those people. I have no problem with either side of the argument, I'm just looking for independent thoughts. If someone is just going to regurgitate everything written at RedState, I'll read that instead.

[RainMaker]

I still can't believe how much press this Gates situation is getting. I guess on a slow news week I'd understand, but we're in the middle of two wars, a massive recession, and a nation altering health care proposal on the table. Who gives a fuck about this story?

Obama was wrong to comment on the case from his position. Gates was wrong for being a douchebag blowhard. The cop was wrong for arresting a guy for doing nothing wrong.

No one died, no one is harmed for life.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I still can't believe how much press this Gates situation is getting. I guess on a slow news week I'd understand, but we're in the middle of two wars, a massive recession, and a nation altering health care proposal on the table. Who gives a fuck about this story?

Well for starters, pretty much anybody who recognized it for what it was: a slip that indicates the true colors (no pun intended) of our TOTUS (had to work that in there since I learned it today ;)

[JonInMiddleGA]

I have no doubt that you could give two shits what Michelle Malkin or Ann Coulter has to say on the topic.

Thank you sir, I'll take that as a compliment.

While I'm definitely a fan, any interest I may have in Coulter is not particularly motivated by any desire to have her tell me anything I don't already know.
I just read her for the articles ;)

[RainMaker]

Thank you sir, I'll take that as a compliment.

While I'm definitely a fan, any interest I may have in Coulter is not particularly motivated by any desire to have her tell me anything I don't already know.
I just read her for the articles ;)
It is a compliment. It just feels like we are creating these robots on both sides that regurgitate everything they read from their "leaders". If Sean Hannitty and Keith Olbermann came out and said everyone should start eating their shit, you'd find a ton of partisians chowing down on feces the next morning.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

But your thoughts are independent. I have no doubt that you could give two shits what Michelle Malkin or Ann Coulter has to say on the topic. Others just read those sites and believe what they are told by those people. I have no problem with either side of the argument, I'm just looking for independent thoughts. If someone is just going to regurgitate everything written at RedState, I'll read that instead.

Yes, we all know that this has everything to do with partisan blogs and nothing to do with a President making an ass of himself on a public stage. Thanks for the clarification.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

It is a compliment. It just feels like we are creating these robots on both sides that regurgitate everything they read from their "leaders". If Sean Hannitty and Keith Olbermann came out and said everyone should start eating their shit, you'd find a ton of partisians chowing down on feces the next morning.

You want to point out anyone on this board that doesn't think that Hannity and Olbermann are both uninformed jackasses? I'd love to see the list.

Until then, keep up the generalized discussion that lumps people into groups rather than discussion the issue at hand as you always do.

[RainMaker]

Yes, we all know that this has everything to do with partisan blogs and nothing to do with a President making an ass of himself on a public stage. Thanks for the clarification.
No one gives a shit about this issue but partisians.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I'm sure that MBBF independently came up with the phrase TOTUS.

He's like a twitter feed for Michelle Malkin.

I'll be completely honest. I didn't even know who Michelle Malkin was until you mentioned her in your post. I'm at least aware of it now. Looks like a nut job just from reading the first page, but from the sounds of your sarcastic statement, it appears you agree so there's likely nothing further to discuss.

As for TOTUS, was there anyone who didn't know what that was that even remotely posts about politics? I'm not sure why using that commonly used abbreviation is suddenly a black mark.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

No one gives a shit about this issue but partisians.

Feel free to continue living in a world where only partisans care when a black man erroneously calls out a white cop as the bad guy. It fits you well.

[cartman]

I'll be completely honest. I didn't even know who Michelle Malkin was until you mentioned her in your post.

Either you are flat out lying, or you haven't read other people's posts in any of the myriad of political threads you've posted in over the past few years.

[duckman]

I think this signifies the situation in the thread nicely:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d138/duckman76/flying-cat-fight.jpg

[RainMaker]

Feel free to continue living in a world where only partisans care when a black man erroneously calls out a white cop as the bad guy. It fits you well.
No one gives a shit because it has no fucking effect on any normal, non-partisians life. Walk up and down the street and ask people what matters in their life. I guarantee you'll hear the well being of their family, their job, their financial status, and probably their health. You won't find a single person who will say "well, my biggest concern right now in life is what our President said about some random, tiny incident". No one in the real world who has real issues gives two flying shits about this.

Then again, this must be the first fucking time a black man has accused a white cop of racism. This is huge, when will we ever have a moment like this again?

[RainMaker]

I'll be completely honest. I didn't even know who Michelle Malkin was until you mentioned her in your post. I'm at least aware of it now. Looks like a nut job just from reading the first page, but from the sounds of your sarcastic statement, it appears you agree so there's likely nothing further to discuss.

As for TOTUS, was there anyone who didn't know what that was that even remotely posts about politics? I'm not sure why using that commonly used abbreviation is suddenly a black mark.
You follow politics rather closely. You frequently post links to stories favoring Republicans and/or conservatives. Yet you have never heard of Michelle Malkin. A lady who runs one of the largest and most trafficked political sites in the country. Someone who has been on every major media network as a pundit and has filled in for the likes of Bill O'Reilly.

Have you heard of Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh?

[JonInMiddleGA]

As for TOTUS, was there anyone who didn't know what that was that even remotely posts about politics?

Umm ... dude, I'm trying to help a little here but that one didn't make it any easier.

As I alluded to earlier, I had no idea what that was until I Googled it, had never heard it in my life.

edit to add: Lest I look a five-letter moron, technically, I knew what all of it likely meant except the leading "T".

[JonInMiddleGA]

No one gives a shit because it has no fucking effect on any normal, non-partisians life.

HUGE disagreement there.

It affects the life of every non-black American to have a guy that worries about color first and right/wrong sometime later (and I've giving him an extremely generous benefit of the doubt that I don't really believe he deserves there) sitting in a such a position of power.

Whether the people are smart enough to recognize it is an entirely different question.

[JPhillips]

As I alluded to earlier, I had no idea what that was until I Googled it, had never heard it in my life.

+1

[RainMaker]

HUGE disagreement there. I'd do that word in

It affects the life of every non-black American to have a guy that worries about color first and right/wrong sometime later (and I've giving him an extremely generous benefit of the doubt that I don't really believe he deserves there) sitting in a such a position of power.

Whether the people are smart enough to recognize it is an entirely different question.

I don't think he worried about color first. I think he took the side of his friend first (as many of us would do). It wasn't the right thing to do considering his position, but I don't think this had much to do with color (from his perspective).

But the question still remains, how will this impact your life (or anyone else's here) in any way?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

You follow politics rather closely. You frequently post links to stories favoring Republicans and/or conservatives. Yet you have never heard of Michelle Malkin. A lady who runs one of the largest and most trafficked political sites in the country. Someone who has been on every major media network as a pundit and has filled in for the likes of Bill O'Reilly.

Have you heard of Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh?

I rarely watch TV for politics outside of over lunch in the lunchroom and that's usually without sound, so I'm left to read the bottom of the screen. I never watch it at home. I only listen to local radio, so outside of the off day where I'm not working and happen to hear Rush, my radio is mostly local.

Huffington Post is often where I get quite a bit of my news from a national perspective along with Washinton and NY paper websites. I'm surprised that I didn't notice any Malkin related articles on there. I've searched on that site just now and there are quite a few references to her, nearly all negative.

Of course I know who Coulter is. Don't like her at all. I don't watch O'Reilly or any of the other afternoon/evening cable shows, so I would see her even if Malkin was even on there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

But the question still remains, how will this impact your life (or anyone else's here) in any way?

Would you even ask me that if I were black & such an obvious racist was sitting in the Oval Office?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I don't think he worried about color first.

Bullshit. You're more naive than I ever gave you credit. The color of the man's skin was solely his concern. If a black officer gets similar treatment in this instance, we wouldn't hear a peep from Obama.

But the question still remains, how will this impact your life (or anyone else's here) in any way?

The better question is how this DOESN'T impact the average person.

[tarcone]

Would you even ask me that if I were black & such an obvious racist was sitting in the Oval Office?

I believe the man would be run out of office very quickly.

[RainMaker]

Bullshit. You're more naive than I ever gave you credit. The color of the man's skin was solely his concern. If a black officer gets similar treatment in this instance, we wouldn't hear a peep from Obama.
Yes, because Obama is a modern day Malcolm X.

The guy grew up with his white mother and white grandparents. He went to predominately white schools and was around white people. It's not like he's been some fervent civil rights activitist with an axe to grind with whitey.

He took his friends side of the story and called the officer's actions stupid. He didn't call it racist. You act like this was some black power move where afterwards he raised his fist in the air and had a Black Panther party in the oval office. The guy defended his friend without knowing the facts. Called the arrest stupid (which it was). He shouldn't have spoken out. But the whole "black uprising" boogeyman the right is trying to portray here is beyond retarded.


The better question is how this DOESN'T impact the average person.
Then tell me how it will impact your life.

[miked]

Would you even ask me that if I were black & such an obvious racist was sitting in the Oval Office?

No, but since you're white and live in Georgia, I guess it makes the difference between your family eating and not.

[miked]

The better question is how this DOESN'T impact the average person.

I'll tell you how. Tomorrow morning I'll wake up, my Roth will still be down 35%, my mom will still be unemployed, we will likely be supporting my in-laws soon enough, and my gas will still cost $2.65. I fail to see how this incident and the president making a comment that will be forgotten in a few weeks affects any of this. Then again, I'm reasonably intelligent and don't cut and paste 6 times a day from my favorite conservative blog about shit that doesn't matter.

[JonInMiddleGA]

No, but since you're white and live in Georgia, I guess it makes the difference between your family eating and not.

It makes a difference between whether this is a country I continue to live in by choice versus circumstance. It makes a difference whether I believe there's any hope left for the nation or whether we've become so dumbed down over recent decades that there's any reason to believe we'll continue to exist as a notable power. Sadly, it makes me realize that there really are people who are either so naive, so incredibly stupid, or so desperate to remain locked in denial that they don't see the piece of shit sitting on the fencepost for what he is. Or that they've been brainwashed so successfully that their self-loathing is so endoctrinated that they figure it's okay, they deserve it.

Yeah, it makes a pretty significant difference in my life, including being a part of the equation I weigh every single day that determines whether I become just another statistic or if I decide to continue living. The margin is pretty fucking thing for a number of reasons but what having this waste of oxygen in the White House has narrowed the gap considerably.

edit to add: Not that this incident is some sort of blinding revelation, he is what I knew he is. The distress comes strictly from being slapped across the face with the reality that he could walk out to the podium and announce a plan to Kill Whitey and that not only would he get support, the move would be applauded by a goodly number of useful idiot whites. That's the additionally disturbing part for me, not that Obama is just a common racist.

[RainMaker]

So because the President said an arrest was stupid, the entire axis of our nation is about to become unhinged? If he has a grilled cheese for lunch tomorrow, does the Great Lakes region get sucked into a vortex?

[JonInMiddleGA]

So because the President said an arrest was stupid, the entire axis of our nation is about to become unhinged?

We reached that point a good bit back. This is just one of those annoying slaps in the face that serve as a reminder of that fact. That's the significance of it, not that it's anything that wasn't already known.

[miked]

It makes a difference between whether this is a country I continue to live in by choice versus circumstance. It makes a difference whether I believe there's any hope left for the nation or whether we've become so dumbed down over recent decades that there's any reason to believe we'll continue to exist as a notable power. Sadly, it makes me realize that there really are people who are either so naive, so incredibly stupid, or so desperate to remain locked in denial that they don't see the piece of shit sitting on the fencepost for what he is. Or that they've been brainwashed so successfully that their self-loathing is so endoctrinated that they figure it's okay, they deserve it.

Yeah, it makes a pretty significant difference in my life, including being a part of the equation I weigh every single day that determines whether I become just another statistic or if I decide to continue living. The margin is pretty fucking thing for a number of reasons but what having this waste of oxygen in the White House has narrowed the gap considerably.

edit to add: Not that this incident is some sort of blinding revelation, he is what I knew he is. The distress comes strictly from being slapped across the face with the reality that he could walk out to the podium and announce a plan to Kill Whitey and that not only would he get support, the move would be applauded by a goodly number of useful idiot whites. That's the additionally disturbing part for me, not that Obama is just a common racist.

Wow, glad you didn't feel anything about our nation being dumbed down when our president could not pronounce nuclear, or when Sonny Purdue cuts education funding in a state that ranks in the bottom 5 of the country. I guess the president calling a cop racist (I've lived in Mass and was friends with plenty of cops, he's mostly correct) when his friend was involved in a controversy turns the tides on whether or not this nation of dummies still deserves your glorious presence.

On a side note, you should be madder the Braves are still finding playing time for Casey Kotchman.

[larrymcg421]

I'm still missing the part where he called the cop racist? In his original comment, the only criticism was of arresting Gates for disorderly conduct. He didn't say it was racist, just that it was stupid. That's pretty much the same thing alot of us said.

[DaddyTorgo]

lol - the histrionics over this are totally out-of-whack.

as others have said, there are any number of things more important that should be getting more news time than this non-story.

let's not forget too that obama didn't offer up the comment on his own. he was questioned about it by a reporter.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Wow, glad you didn't feel anything about our nation being dumbed down when our president could not pronounce nuclear

I really don't think there's a Dem alive who ought to go down that road unless they want to disavow President Cuber, I mean Kennedy.

or when Sonny Purdue cuts education funding in a state that ranks in the bottom 5 of the country.

Yeah, we've gotten such a good ROI to date. I'd support eliminating it altogether frankly and starting over as the vast majority of the money is either mismanaged, misused, or simply flat out wasted.

I guess the president immediately siding with a raving lunatic behaving in a criminal manner over a law enforcement officer roundly respected by his peers based on nothing so much as the color of his skin

Fixed that naive bullshit you posted.

On a side note, you should be madder the Braves are still finding playing time for Casey Kotchman.

Tough to get mad when you realize he's the best regular 1B not named Texiera they've had in nearly a decade ... unless of course you prefer Adam LaRoche. Otherwise, since Gallaraga left after 2000 we've had such notables as Scott Thorman, Robert Fick, Wes Helms, and a sub-par year from Julio Franco.

[JonInMiddleGA]

That's pretty much the same thing alot of us said.

See loathing, self and/or naive.

[King of New York]

I'll tell you how. Tomorrow morning I'll wake up, my Roth will still be down 35%, my mom will still be unemployed, we will likely be supporting my in-laws soon enough, and my gas will still cost $2.65. I fail to see how this incident and the president making a comment that will be forgotten in a few weeks affects any of this. Then again, I'm reasonably intelligent and don't cut and paste 6 times a day from my favorite conservative blog about shit that doesn't matter.

That's all true--but based on the large number of people who consistently vote against their economic interests (poor rural whites supporting the party of regressive taxation, upper-middle-class whites voting for the party of progressive taxation), I dare say that many (most?) people care as much (more?) about cultural (including racial) issues as about economic issues.

Sure, this incident could be Obama's Zoe Baird moment--a big deal at the time, and largely irrelevant to the rest of his presidency. But it could be Obama's "Mission Accomplished" moment as well--the moment he put his foot in it so badly that he could never get it out again.

FWIW, I think that most of the disappointment stems not from the suspicion that Obama is a closet Black Panther, as from the sense that his remark was undisciplined and foolish. He's president of an entire country now, not a community organizer, and he needs to start thinking and acting like the president--not shooting from the hip, not getting backs up all across the country unnecessarily, and not squandering the power of the bully pulpit.

[panerd]

That's all true--but based on the large number of people who consistently vote against their economic interests (poor rural whites supporting the party of regressive taxation, upper-middle-class whites voting for the party of progressive taxation), I dare say that many (most?) people care as much (more?) about cultural (including racial) issues as about economic issues.
.

I will take you one step farther and say that you have a shitload of people who agree mostly with conservatives on issues like taxes and the colossal waste of taxpayer money on welfare type programs and who agree with liberals on gay rights, abortion, and other social issues. They get so caught up in choosing between Obama/McCain or Bush/Kerry or Bush/Gore that they fail to recognize there is a party that actually supports more of their beliefs than either other major party.

[RainMaker]

Sure, this incident could be Obama's Zoe Baird moment--a big deal at the time, and largely irrelevant to the rest of his presidency. But it could be Obama's "Mission Accomplished" moment as well--the moment he put his foot in it so badly that he could never get it out again.
I just think it's insane to compare the two incidents. The Mission Accomplished banner was over a war that will cost $3 trillion dollars, the lives of thousands of Americans and potentially millions of foreigners, as well as our standing in the world and overall safety. This is a dumb comment he made about a non-issue that has no bearing on anything in this world.

Obama's Mission Accomplished moment could be over the stimulus if the economy doesn't recover. It could be over his health care proposal if it goes through and ends up bad for the country. Issues that do effect our country and us individually to an extent. This was blown up because the cable news networks saw a slow 24 hour news cycle and some right-wing blogs saw an opportunity to stir up the racial and xenophobic boogeymen. It is a speck on the scale of issues like the wars, economy, and health care.

FWIW, I think that most of the disappointment stems not from the suspicion that Obama is a closet Black Panther, as from the sense that his remark was undisciplined and foolish. He's president of an entire country now, not a community organizer, and he needs to start thinking and acting like the president--not shooting from the hip, not getting backs up all across the country unnecessarily, and not squandering the power of the bully pulpit.
I can understand that and I agree that his comment wasn't smart. But the same people complaining about this are the same people who loved it when Bush "shot from the hip" after 9/11. I know hypocrisy is par for the course in partisian politics, but it does get a bit tiring from an outside observer.

[RainMaker]

I will take you one step farther and say that you have a shitload of people who agree mostly with conservatives on issues like taxes and the colossal waste of taxpayer money on welfare type programs and who agree with liberals on gay rights, abortion, and other social issues. They get so caught up in choosing between Obama/McCain or Bush/Kerry or Bush/Gore that they fail to recognize there is a party that actually supports more of their beliefs than either other major party.
I'm more or less in that boat. It's not that I vote against my own self interests, it's that I have to try and decide on the lesser of two evils every election.

[RainMaker]

Tough to get mad when you realize he's the best regular 1B not named Texiera they've had in nearly a decade ... unless of course you prefer Adam LaRoche. Otherwise, since Gallaraga left after 2000 we've had such notables as Scott Thorman, Robert Fick, Wes Helms, and a sub-par year from Julio Franco.
In Julio's defense, he was like 53.

[JonInMiddleGA]

In Julio's defense, he was like 53.

Maybe ... in 1975 ;)

[King of New York]

I just think it's insane to compare the two incidents. The Mission Accomplished banner was over a war that will cost $3 trillion dollars, the lives of thousands of Americans and potentially millions of foreigners, as well as our standing in the world and overall safety. This is a dumb comment he made about a non-issue that has no bearing on anything in this world.

Obama's Mission Accomplished moment could be over the stimulus if the economy doesn't recover. It could be over his health care proposal if it goes through and ends up bad for the country. Issues that do effect our country and us individually to an extent. This was blown up because the cable news networks saw a slow 24 hour news cycle and some right-wing blogs saw an opportunity to stir up the racial and xenophobic boogeymen. It is a speck on the scale of issues like the wars, economy, and health care.

I see what you're saying, Rainmaker, and certainly the ramifications of Gatesgate will never be as massive as the ramifications of the Iraq War. What I meant by the comparison is that in each case, the President went way out on a limb and made himself vulnerable, and we all know what happened when that limb snapped beneath W.

I thought that Obama's comments today about the whole episode were spot on--he acknowledged that he had poured fuel on the fire by speaking as he did, and he is actively trying to reconcile himself with the officer in question. Unfortunately, those remarks did not contain any phrase as memorable as the one that caused the furor in the first place, but at least Obama is de-escalating, which is what the situation needed from the moment it first occurred.

[JPhillips]

I see what you're saying, Rainmaker, and certainly the ramifications of Gatesgate will never be as massive as the ramifications of the Iraq War. What I meant by the comparison is that in each case, the President went way out on a limb and made himself vulnerable, and we all know what happened when that limb snapped beneath W.

I thought that Obama's comments today about the whole episode were spot on--he acknowledged that he had poured fuel on the fire by speaking as he did, and he is actively trying to reconcile himself with the officer in question. Unfortunately, those remarks did not contain any phrase as memorable as the one that caused the furor in the first place, but at least Obama is de-escalating, which is what the situation needed from the moment it first occurred.

The Mission Accomplished sign was only a problem in retrospect and even then only a symptom of a larger problem. In 2003 the banner was widely praised in the media and it certainly wasn't a detriment in a very good for the GOP 2004 election cycle. It wasn't until 2005 when it was clear that the war wasn't being won and that there seemed no strategy to change our fortunes that Bush really started his nosedive. Later that summer came Katrina and he never again had decent approval ratings.

In short, the comparison to a widely praised event that only later seemed to sum up the futility of the Bush admin doesn't seem to hold water IMO.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Then tell me how it will impact your life.

You obviously didn't watch some of the comments on the nightly national news programs. It has caused polarization. They went into LA and they interviewed a bunch of black people who all said that the cop was a racist and that Mr. Obama was spot-on in that assessment and didn't have to apologize for a thing.

They also interviewed several white people and they universally said that Mr. Obama was way out of bounds in his comments.

Now, you can say that those kinds of feelings may exist and that's fine. But we don't need our president being the one to make ignorant comments like he did in this situation. He STILL didn't apologize to the cop and he didn't do that because he knows he'd have several million black people calling him an 'Uncle Tom' if he did. He didn't call out the professor's instigating demeanor either for the same reason. It's easier for him to pretend it's all a big misunderstanding.

The ignorance of people like you as far as these kinds of events is amazing. You're more than welcome to pretend that these kinds of things aren't true if you want, but you're blissfully ignorant of things if that's the case.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Then again, I'm reasonably intelligent and don't cut and paste 6 times a day from my favorite conservative blog about shit that doesn't matter.

Which blog would that be? Care to show me the six times today that I did that? As most people who are paying attention would note, my personal linking preference is the Huffington Post. Last time I checked, that certainly wasn't a conservative blog, but don't let that stop you from making comments with no basis in fact.

[rowech]

Race will ALWAYS be an issue in this country. FOREVER. We are never going to get past it.

[JPhillips]

Which blog would that be? Care to show me the six times today that I did that? As most people who are paying attention would note, my personal linking preference is the Huffington Post. Last time I checked, that certainly wasn't a conservative blog, but don't let that stop you from making comments with no basis in fact.

cough, WIZBANG, cough

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

cough, WIZBANG, cough

It's been quite awhile since I've posted from that blog, but once again, don't let that stop you from a claim based in the past. It's not relevant to today, but liberals stuck in the past seems to be hindering the party in recent days, including the leader.

[JPhillips]

Well you act like you're shocked that anyone could think you'd just post conservative blog links when you spent much of the campaign and aftermath doing just that. I'll admit you seem to have moved past that, but there's no need for the indignation when you have been known to do exactly what you were called out for doing.

[King of New York]

The Mission Accomplished sign was only a problem in retrospect and even then only a symptom of a larger problem. In 2003 the banner was widely praised in the media and it certainly wasn't a detriment in a very good for the GOP 2004 election cycle. It wasn't until 2005 when it was clear that the war wasn't being won and that there seemed no strategy to change our fortunes that Bush really started his nosedive. Later that summer came Katrina and he never again had decent approval ratings.

In short, the comparison to a widely praised event that only later seemed to sum up the futility of the Bush admin doesn't seem to hold water IMO.

I'm aware of those differences ;) My point is: each presidency has its defining moments. Sometimes it is immediately apparent that a defining moment is at hand, sometimes it only becomes evident in hindsight. George H W Bush's "Read My Lips," Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, W and the "Mission Accomplished Banner"--those became the defining moments of their presidencies. If Obama does not tread carefully here, Gatesgate is going to be an equally defining moment, if only because he has handed his political opponents a giant, gift-wrapped club with which to beat him repeatedly.

And while Obama is now de-escalating, as he should be, it is true that he just cannot seem to bring himself to call out Henry Gates for his belligerent behavior during the whole episode. The best Obama can muster is that Gates "probably overreacted," as opposed to the police officer, whom Obama is sure acted stupidly. My politics and MBBF's are very different, but that point is a valid one.

[Dutch]

The Mission Accomplished sign was only a problem in retrospect and even then only a symptom of a larger problem. In 2003 the banner was widely praised in the media and it certainly wasn't a detriment in a very good for the GOP 2004 election cycle. It wasn't until 2005 when it was clear that the war wasn't being won and that there seemed no strategy to change our fortunes that Bush really started his nosedive. Later that summer came Katrina and he never again had decent approval ratings.

In short, the comparison to a widely praised event that only later seemed to sum up the futility of the Bush admin doesn't seem to hold water IMO.

In 2003, the US military had just accomplished it's mission of overthrowing Saddam Hussein. As easy as it looked on TV, it was no small task that required a lot of moving parts, expertise, and long hours on everybody's part (not to mention loss of life and the risk of loss of life).

Those troops deserved the president's appreciation once completing that mission.

Once the excitement of toppling the Saddam regime subsided, and the long war against terror-insurgency began, the far-left blogosphere mutilated the commander-in-chief's message in a successful broadcast that went on for years. Most everybody soon associated that banner not with the "praise for the military" that it truly meant in 2003 but with the purely liberal revision of "Bush thinks their is no more work to do in Iraq!"

In the speech that Bush gave that day, he stated that just because Hussein was defeated did not mean the work the military had to do was over.

[CamEdwards]

Clearly the most important issues facing this country are:

1) Healthcare reform

2) Foreign policy

3) The blog-reading of MBBF

5633) Race relations and the statements of the first bi-racial President.

[Glengoyne]

Pretty disappointed the president jumped into this. IMO Gates deserved to be arrested for his conduct. That's based on the pictures, and the accounts of the police. I buy those over Gate's own account.

I can't imagine the beer thing will work out suitably for the cop. He is 100% confident that he was in the right, and would do it again. Gates is the same. While a meeting can be civil, and may avail of a photo op with the two shaking hands...something the White house is hoping desperately for, it seems to make little sense for the Cop to entertain.

On the plus side he gets a visit to the WH...pretty cool, and hard to pass up. On the down side it seems to be an invite to the WH to have a beer and a shit sandwich with two guys who have thrown you under the bus. One who won't stop anytime soon, and the other who only regrets throwing you under bus because it cost him politically. Neither of whom are willing to admit that you did the right thing.

On totus. Who knew?

[Glengoyne]

In 2003, the US military had just accomplished it's mission of overthrowing Saddam Hussein. As easy as it looked on TV, it was no small task that required a lot of moving parts, expertise, and long hours on everybody's part (not to mention loss of life and the risk of loss of life).

Those troops deserved the president's appreciation once completing that mission.

Once the excitement of toppling the Saddam regime subsided, and the long war against terror-insurgency began, the far-left blogosphere mutilated the commander-in-chief's message in a successful broadcast that went on for years. Most everybody soon associated that banner not with the "praise for the military" that it truly meant in 2003 but with the purely liberal revision of "Bush thinks their is no more work to do in Iraq!"

In the speech that Bush gave that day, he stated that just because Hussein was defeated did not mean the work the military had to do was over.

Dutch. What the hell are you thinking? You can't possibly expect anyone to believe that the President's speech beneath the now infamous banner should play any part in defining the context of the event.

[RainMaker]

You obviously didn't watch some of the comments on the nightly national news programs. It has caused polarization. They went into LA and they interviewed a bunch of black people who all said that the cop was a racist and that Mr. Obama was spot-on in that assessment and didn't have to apologize for a thing.

They also interviewed several white people and they universally said that Mr. Obama was way out of bounds in his comments.

Now, you can say that those kinds of feelings may exist and that's fine. But we don't need our president being the one to make ignorant comments like he did in this situation. He STILL didn't apologize to the cop and he didn't do that because he knows he'd have several million black people calling him an 'Uncle Tom' if he did. He didn't call out the professor's instigating demeanor either for the same reason. It's easier for him to pretend it's all a big misunderstanding.

The ignorance of people like you as far as these kinds of events is amazing. You're more than welcome to pretend that these kinds of things aren't true if you want, but you're blissfully ignorant of things if that's the case.
It has caused polarization? Are you telling me that urban blacks had high opinions on white cops up till Obama made that comment? That races didn't differ on social issues?

But again, my question for you is how does this impact yours or anyone else's life? It's just faux-rage on the right. No wonder they've been getting demolished in elections.

[molson]

In 2003, the US military had just accomplished it's mission of overthrowing Saddam Hussein. As easy as it looked on TV, it was no small task that required a lot of moving parts, expertise, and long hours on everybody's part (not to mention loss of life and the risk of loss of life).

Those troops deserved the president's appreciation once completing that mission.

Once the excitement of toppling the Saddam regime subsided, and the long war against terror-insurgency began, the far-left blogosphere mutilated the commander-in-chief's message in a successful broadcast that went on for years. Most everybody soon associated that banner not with the "praise for the military" that it truly meant in 2003 but with the purely liberal revision of "Bush thinks their is no more work to do in Iraq!"

In the speech that Bush gave that day, he stated that just because Hussein was defeated did not mean the work the military had to do was over.

It's not often that you hear this kind of sanity on that "mission accomplished" nonsense.

I guess it was a political mistake in the sense that they should have known that people would misrepresent the presented sentiment for political points. But the real story there, the real dick move to me has always been ya, critizing the president's praise of the military because the NEXT mission didn't meet their personal expectations. I think maybe I have a different perspective then most (I thought Iraq would be longer, and more bloody than it actually turned out), so I can see that a little better. But then on the other hand, at the time we had Dan Rather DESPERATE to make a story that even the initial overthrow of the government was going badly (this about 12 hours in, and all that was happening was tanks moving towards Bagdhad)

[JonInMiddleGA]

It's just faux-rage on the right.

Sure you don't mean "misplaced" instead of "faux"? I don't even agree that it's misplaced frankly but the change would seem more likely to fit what you actually mean based on our previous conversations.

But if you think the anger (over a variety of things, this is just symptomatic) isn't real I can assure that you're badly misreading it.

[flere-imsaho]

In the speech that Bush gave that day, he stated that just because Hussein was defeated did not mean the work the military had to do was over.

Importantly, though, "major combat operations" were over, right?

Seriously, though, one of the benefits of time passing is that we can look past the speech to the preparations made and analysis done by Bush Administration officials and conclude quite readily that the situation that followed the invasion took them completely by surprise. And this despite members of the military and diplomatic corps who counseled them otherwise.

The same hubris that made Rumsfeld, Cheney, et. al., disagree with and publicly humiliate people like General Shinseki for being "off message" is what got Bush up on that aircraft carrier to make that speech. So while Bush supporters might still try to defend the speech, and the image, through semantics, you really can't (and shouldn't) deny the message it gave to the country and the world about Iraq.

[molson]

Importantly, though, "major combat operations" were over, right?



Did you expect us to be out of Iraq a few weeks after that?

I just assumed they were talking about the regime change part. I really didn't think they were talking about the war on terror part.

What should of happened? Is it just the banner that offended you so much? What the hell difference does it make to anything? Should we not praise the military until every terrorist is dead?

It just isn't anything more than partisian point-gathering. It's just so bizzare when you step back and look at it. There was a "mission accomplished" banner after a particular military success. And that was horrible because there was more conflict there in the years to come. It just doesn't make any sense.

It always seems so weird to me that with an administration that did so much that one can criticize, people seem to get most passionate about the trivial. People get more fired up about that banner than the actual running of the war.

[flere-imsaho]

The banner and the speech and the theatricality of it all, especially in context of a) what happened next and b) what we now know about their decision-making apparatus, simply underscores how ill-prepared, poorly-judged and arrogantly-influenced the decisions of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Feith, et. al. were.

Can people honestly look back at the shit Rumsfeld & Cheney spewed ("six days, six weeks, I can't imagine six months" "last throes of the insurgency, if you will", etc, etc, etc) and tell me they all weren't thinking that Bush's little jaunt to the George Washington wasn't the end of major U.S. loss of life and investment in Iraq?

They were not just wrong, they were catastrophically wrong and like it or not, the Mission Accomplished event is the perfect image for the whole boondoggle.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Can people honestly ... tell me they all weren't thinking that Bush's little jaunt to the George Washington wasn't the end of major U.S. loss of life and investment in Iraq?

{raises hand}

Yes I believe I could. Anybody who thought those folks were going to be able to govern themselves effectively and in a manner that assured they were no longer a concern to our national interest without someone looking closely over their shoulder had to be in denial or an complete fool.

Now whether or not there were elements in the administration that were kidding themselves or were simply that downright foolish, well that's probably a different question, one that really touches on one of my biggest gripes about the actual running of the war. At some point, I'm afraid key people may have started to believe their own p.r. campaign about "promoting freedom and democracy" and actually began to think that was the point.

[flere-imsaho]

Yes I believe I could. Anybody who thought those folks were going to be able to govern themselves effectively and in a manner that assured they were no longer a concern to our national interest without someone looking closely over their shoulder had to be in denial or an complete fool.

I agree 100% and so I agree that Rumsfeld, Cheney and the rest of the chickenhawks in the administration were/are fools. Dangerous, incompetent fools.

Now whether or not there were elements in the administration that were kidding themselves or were simply that downright foolish, well that's probably a different question, one that really touches on one of my biggest gripes about the actual running of the war. At some point, I'm afraid key people may have started to believe their own p.r. campaign about "promoting freedom and democracy" and actually began to think that was the point.

That too. If I had to guess, I'd say Bush, Wolfowitz, Feith and their hanger-on neocons thought the latter while for Cheney & Rumsfeld it was more about retribution, KBR contracts, oil contracts for friends, and looking like badasses.

[Dutch]

Too many liberal buzzwords in one post, Flere.

[molson]

Too many liberal buzzwords in one post, Flere.

If Mizzou B-ball fan made a post like that everyone would be complaining about him getting that stuff from blogs.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

If Mizzou B-ball fan made a post like that everyone would be complaining about getting that stuff from blogs.

Good to see that no matter where the topic wanders, all roads lead back to MBBF. :D

You're in good company, flere.

[CamEdwards]

Hey, why complain about the current president when we're not through complaining about the last one!

[RainMaker]

Did you expect us to be out of Iraq a few weeks after that?

I just assumed they were talking about the regime change part. I really didn't think they were talking about the war on terror part.

What should of happened? Is it just the banner that offended you so much? What the hell difference does it make to anything? Should we not praise the military until every terrorist is dead?

It just isn't anything more than partisian point-gathering. It's just so bizzare when you step back and look at it. There was a "mission accomplished" banner after a particular military success. And that was horrible because there was more conflict there in the years to come. It just doesn't make any sense.

It always seems so weird to me that with an administration that did so much that one can criticize, people seem to get most passionate about the trivial. People get more fired up about that banner than the actual running of the war.

I think the banner was the symbolization of the war though. It was a sign of incompetence and people who had no idea what was going on. Celebrating a mission as accomplished when the hardest and most deadliest part of the war had yet to begin.

People turned on the news and saw young men and women dying every day. They heard no news of the WMDs that made us go into this war. Then they thought back to the banner and it angered them. Would be no different than President Obama coming out and saying mission accomplished on the economy while we still have some pain left to go.

[RainMaker]

Sure you don't mean "misplaced" instead of "faux"? I don't even agree that it's misplaced frankly but the change would seem more likely to fit what you actually mean based on our previous conversations.

But if you think the anger (over a variety of things, this is just symptomatic) isn't real I can assure that you're badly misreading it.
It isn't real for this issue. I have no doubt there are people angry with him over spending and other issues. I just think this was used as a reason to pick a fight and stir up some racism.

It's how paritisan politics works though. Although people on the Left were mad at Bush for things like the war, they turned every single thing he did into a "major outrage".

[JonInMiddleGA]

It isn't real for this issue. I have no doubt there are people angry with him over spending and other issues. I just think this was used as a reason to pick a fight and stir up some racism.

Actually, we're mad about his blatant racism too.

[RainMaker]

Actually, we're mad about his blatant racism too.
I still don't see anything in his statements that mentioned race. He said the arrest was stupid, which I and the DA agree with.

Did I miss him raising his fist in the air and yelling "BLACK POWER"?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Did I miss him raising his fist in the air and yelling "BLACK POWER"?

He might as well have.

[molson]

I still don't see anything in his statements that mentioned race. "

Edit: I'm not even responding to the right thing, too many martinis I think

[flere-imsaho]

Too many liberal buzzwords in one post, Flere.

If Mizzou B-ball fan made a post like that everyone would be complaining about him getting that stuff from blogs.

Hey, why complain about the current president when we're not through complaining about the last one!

Good to know the echo chamber is still working just fine. Let me know when you guys have an original thought.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Let me know when you guys have an original thought.

After the steaming pile of cut & paste you posted earlier, that probably ain't the best road for you to go down. Kind of has that whole pot/kettle vibe.

[JPhillips]

Imagine if this many Dems wouldn't answer a question about 9/11 truthers.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/g1o1p_ly7Yw&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/g1o1p_ly7Yw&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[flere-imsaho]

After the steaming pile of cut & paste you posted earlier, that probably ain't the best road for you to go down. Kind of has that whole pot/kettle vibe.

Sad to see you lose that "independent thinker" vibe, Jon.

[flere-imsaho]

Hey, why complain about the current president when we're not through complaining about the last one!

But... but... but... CLINTON!!!

[RainMaker]

The lady who called the police and was listed in the report denies that she said anything about "black" men and also claims to never have spoken to Sgt. Crowley at the scene. Seems someone embelished the police report.

911 caller in Gates arrest never referred to 'black suspects' - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/27/gates.arrest/index.html)

[flere-imsaho]

So let me get this straight, after all this time are there still people here who thought that Cheney, Rumsfeld and et. al. of the neocons really knew what they were doing so well in Iraq and the 5-year counter-insurgency effort we've gone through was just what, bad luck?

[JonInMiddleGA]

So let me get this straight, after all this time are there still people here who thought that Cheney, Rumsfeld and et. al. of the neocons really knew what they were doing so well in Iraq and the 5-year counter-insurgency effort we've gone through was just what, bad luck?

No, it's largely attributable to worrying too much about politics, political correctness & making nice with the enemy instead of focusing on effective means to accomplish particular tasks.

[JPhillips]

He might as well have.

Watch out Jon. I hear he's got a plan to fuck all the white womens.

[RainMaker]

Never heard of this site, but the picture is awesome.

Taki’s Magazine, edited by Taki Theodoracopulos (http://www.takimag.com/article/is_obamania_over/)

[CamEdwards]

Watch out Jon. I hear he's got a plan to fuck all the white womens.

quoted for classiness.

[SFL Cat]

Watch out Jon. I hear he's got a plan to fuck all the white womens.

He cetainly seemed to be enjoying that Italian woman's a$$!

[JPhillips]

quoted for classiness.

Well I'm just on edge ever since I got the fundraising call from the NRA. I had no idea all the things "they" are going to do. And don't even get me started on the plans the U.N. has!

[CamEdwards]

Well I'm just on edge ever since I got the fundraising call from the NRA. I had no idea all the things "they" are going to do. And don't even get me started on the plans the U.N. has!

Wow, he does snarky comments based on the unique personality/character traits of the poster! I tell ya, it's the little touches like this that make a message board great and keep me coming back to FOFC.

Seriously though, I'd say you actually seem snarkier now than you did this time last year, which strikes me as odd. You do realize your side won the last election, right? ;)

[JPhillips]

I'm not at all joking about the NRA call. The guy was nice, but when he wouldn't let me politely decline it just got crazier and crazier. At the U.N. part I started laughing. I'm sure it's been tested as effective, but it certainly didn't get me thinking of my gun safety class I took as a Boy Scout.

[flere-imsaho]

No, it's largely attributable to worrying too much about politics, political correctness & making nice with the enemy instead of focusing on effective means to accomplish particular tasks.

I'm on record (in other threads) as being for a) more men, b) more force, c) broader rules of engagement, d) more operational freedom given to the military commanders (as opposed to the desk jockeys sitting in the White House & Pentagon) and e) clearer objectives in Iraq, assuming we were going to be there anyway.

Speaking to your point, I'd argue that the root cause of the failures in the areas I list above are due to the incompetence of Cheney, Rumsfeld, et. al., not necessarily domestic political pressures. And to support this argument I'll note that once Cheney, Rumsfeld, et. al., started to lose their influence in the Administration in general, and the Iraq War in specific, and you saw the military itself (and especially the more innovative commanders in the military) regain control of the way the war was waged, there was more success on the ground. Success that certainly was helped by some other internal factors (Sunnis turning against Al-Qaeda, Al-Sadr's cease fire), but success nonetheless.

Which is why I'm confused as to why people continue to ridicule the notion that key people in the Bush Administration were unprepared (due to hubris, arrogance, incompetence, etc...) for the situation on the ground after the invasion of Iraq. Maybe someone can explain that to me.

[flere-imsaho]

Speaking of the NRA, Cam, I don't know if he was a member or not, but should we expect to see some sort of condemnation of Hal Turner by the NRA for his recent threats against Judges Easterbrook & Posner?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Speaking to your point, I'd argue that the root cause of the failures in the areas I list above are due to the incompetence of Cheney, Rumsfeld, et. al., not necessarily domestic political pressures.

And my argument is that responding to those pressures is the display of incompetence. In other words, I don't believe they didn't know any better (which would have been incompetence via ignorance) but rather they lacked the will to overcome those pressures & bowed to them instead.

[flere-imsaho]

And my argument is that responding to those pressures is the display of incompetence. In other words, I don't believe they didn't know any better (which would have been incompetence via ignorance) but rather they lacked the will to overcome those pressures & bowed to them instead.

Well, I'd argue they had both failings. You look back on the public statements and now-available private writings of these guys from 2002/2003 and it's pretty clear they thought the military question would be done by early 2004 and they'd have moved on to conducting deals for oil and reconstruction with an amenable Iraqi government.

[SteveMax58]

And my argument is that responding to those pressures is the display of incompetence. In other words, I don't believe they didn't know any better (which would have been incompetence via ignorance) but rather they lacked the will to overcome those pressures & bowed to them instead.

+1 to this...I'd also add that the public outrage over the continuing deaths and general mayhem over there made it "easier" (in the Bush Admin's eyes) to justify adding troop levels, IMHO.

So, to put it differently...the Bush admin's failure (IMO) was a misjudging of US public will vs. the public outrage that would follow their inappropriate execution of post-war Iraq.

[judicial clerk]

The cop is still a fucking bafoon. Bust into anyone's house and accuse them of breaking in and you'll find a lot of pissed off people. I don't know if it was racist at all, but definitely unnecessary. Cop should have apologized, put his tail between his legs and drove off.

Dude, your hate for the cops is strong! Now, I know you will probably deny this with all the righteous indignation you can muster, but if you are honest you will admit that it gives you a warm fuzzy to read about cops getting hurt or killed. I am attaching a stoy that should put some spring in your step. It is about a couple more " fucking bafoons" who "busted in" to somebody's house but would have been smart to "apologize, put their tail between their legs, and drive off." These guys definately got that ego check you write about. Read this story then go find a mirror and give yourself a high-five!

SEMINOLE, Oklahoma -- Prosecutors are seeking the death penalty against an Oklahoma man charged with first degree murder for the shooting deaths of two Seminole County deputies.


Ezekiel Holbert, 26, was charged Monday for the shooting deaths of deputies Robbie Chase Whitebird and Marvin Williams.


Seminole Shoot-Out
The deputies were trying to arrest Holbert for failing to make a court appearance after Holbert was released on bond in a domestic violence case in February. Holbert was wanted for allegedly trying to strangle his mother.

When the deputies went to the door to serve the warrant, Holbert opened fire, said Jessica Brown, Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation spokeswoman.

Deputy Robbie Chase Whitebird, 23, was shot inside the home. Deputy Marvin Williams, 43, was shot in the back as he was leaving the house.

Deputy Whitebird died at the scene. He had worked for the sheriff's office since April of 2008.

The Seminole County Sheriff's Office honors fallen members of the department.

Deputy Williams was flown to OU Medical in Oklahoma City but died in transport. He had worked for the department since 2002.

Jennifer Bowen, 22, who was walking outside near the home, was also hit by gunfire in the arm. She was transported to OU Medical Center in Oklahoma City, where she remains. A fund for Bowen's medical expenses has been set up at the First United Bank of Seminole.

Police were able to use a tactical team robot to enter the home, using a PA system to announce their presence and asked Holbert to surrender. A few minutes later, Holbert surrendered to authorities without incident.

Several agencies including local police officers, Oklahoma Highway Patrol and the Seminole County Sheriff's Office investigated the scene. Officers evacuated the area and asked local businesses to shut down while they were searching for Holbert before his arrest.

In the domestic abuse case, Holbert's mother told police he tried to strangle her after he was inhaling paint thinner, court records show. According to an affidavit, "Ms. Holbert and her kids are in fear of Ezekiel's explosive behavior."

Holbert was found at his mother's house, and she was the one who called police because he was not welcome there. Holbert's mother told authorities that she and her other children were afraid of him, court records show.


Two years ago, his sister said in a filing for a protective order that she feared he would kill somebody.

Holbert is being held in the Pottawatomie County Jail. Seminole County District Attorney Chris Ross said they chose not to place Holbert in the Seminole County jail because they were worried about other inmates and law enforcement being tempted to do something to Holbert.

No attorney appeared with Holbert and District Attorney Chris Ross said he had not yet requested a court-appointed lawyer. When Holbert appeared in court Monday, his behavior was very erratic, including grinning, making strange noises and laughing out loud when he heard he was facing the death penalty.

[larrymcg421]

These cop threads just get worse and worse.

Now we've got people arguing that if you dislike the actions of certain cops that you must want to see cops get killed.

That's some really fucked up logic.

[molson]

These cop threads just get worse and worse.

Now we've got people arguing that if you dislike the actions of certain cops that you must want to see cops get killed.

That's some really fucked up logic.

Well Rainmaker's accused me of supporting battery on women in a cop thread, so that definitely goes both ways.

[Flasch186]

And all Ezekials are not bad, take Ezekial Brewman for example.

[RainMaker]

Dude, your hate for the cops is strong! Now, I know you will probably deny this with all the righteous indignation you can muster, but if you are honest you will admit that it gives you a warm fuzzy to read about cops getting hurt or killed. I am attaching a stoy that should put some spring in your step. It is about a couple more " fucking bafoons" who "busted in" to somebody's house but would have been smart to "apologize, put their tail between their legs, and drive off." These guys definately got that ego check you write about. Read this story then go find a mirror and give yourself a high-five!
It's a horrible story and sad anytime something like this happens. I don't have a problem with cops as a whole. I know that the overwhelming majority of them are good, honest people. My issue is with the few bad seeds in the ranks and the way they are protected by other officers and the community.

I just see no reason for this guy to be arrested. Sure he was angry and yelling. But I guarantee you that a lot of people would be if they had a cop come in their house and demand identification. The cop should have verified his identity, apologized for the mix-up, and driven away. The blowhard could stand on his porch and yell into the empty air before tiring himself out.

[RainMaker]

Full email sent by Justin Barrett (http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/local/justin_barrett_full_email_072909)

[DaddyTorgo]

In the Gates case the cop didn't "bust into HIS house." The cop "pursued a suspect into a residence."

Cop didn't know it was Gates' house until his ID was verified. What was he supposed to take the word of someone who he was pursuing as a suspect?

[molson]

My issue is with the few bad seeds in the ranks and the way they are protected by other officers and the community.



Really interesting and telling that after this, you post that cop email without the context of what happened to that officer. (Which doesn't fit your vision that bad officers are "protected by other officers and the community") I'm 100% sure that if the reaction involved any wavering, any difference really, you would have been all over it. Since it didn't fit your bias, you ignore it.

Officer suspended for Gates slur in e-mail - Local News Updates - The Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/07/officer_suspend.html)

"Menino, speaking to the Globe before an evening event in the South End, said he hadn't seen the e-mail Menino said while the officer is not officially terminated, he might as well be "He's gone, g-o-n-e. I don't care, it's like cancer, you don't keep those cancers around."

Unless this officer had used racial slurs on his application to become a police officer, than I'm not sure what more you want.

[RainMaker]

It says on the link I posted that he was suspended. I didn't add any commentary to it so I'm not sure how I'm passing any vision across.

You're the one pretending we live in a fairy tale world where all cops are angels and everyone they arrest is evil. I'm just saying there is a big grey area in between.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

It says on the link I posted that he was suspended. I didn't add any commentary to it so I'm not sure how I'm passing any vision across.

You're the one pretending we live in a fairy tale world where all cops are angels and everyone they arrest is evil. I'm just saying there is a big grey area in between.

Everyone knows exactly what you were implying by posting that link. No need to play stupid.

Your link proved that there are other people in the world that can be just as big of a jackass as Gates was in his situation and little else. Had Gates and this other guy you cited both shut their mouths, neither would be in this situation. The lack of respect coming from Gates and this e-mailer is appaling.

There's no gray area. As Colin Powell correctly stated, you show respect to a police officer. If I would have acted like Gates, I would have expected to get my ass thrown in the slammer and my wife likely would have told me she wasn't bailing me out for acting like a dumbass.

[RainMaker]

Everyone knows exactly what you were implying by posting that link. No need to play stupid.

Your link proved that there are other people in the world that can be just as big of a jackass as Gates was in his situation and little else. Had Gates and this other guy you cited both shut their mouths, neither would be in this situation. The lack of respect coming from Gates and this e-mailer is appaling.
Lack of respect is not against the law.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Lack of respect is not against the law.

But completely asshattery like Gates displayed can be.

[JPhillips]

In the Gates case the cop didn't "bust into HIS house." The cop "pursued a suspect into a residence."

Cop didn't know it was Gates' house until his ID was verified. What was he supposed to take the word of someone who he was pursuing as a suspect?

You're comfortable with the police being able to enter your home based solely on an anonymous 911 call that was summarized by a dispatcher?

[JonInMiddleGA]

You're comfortable with the police being able to enter your home based solely on an anonymous 911 call that was summarized by a dispatcher?

You'd prefer they not investigate those calls thoroughly?

In all seriousness, do we live on the same planet?

[flere-imsaho]

You'd prefer they not investigate those calls thoroughly?

You'd prefer they waste their time doing a thorough investigation on an "incident" where it becomes obvious pretty quickly is BS?

In all seriousness, do we live on the same planet?

Yeah, this isn't Bucc, it's Jon. Of course he's OK with giving exceptional police powers to the state.

[ISiddiqui]

Bud Light for the prez - National Politics Blog - Political Intelligence - Boston.com (http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2009/07/bud_light_for_t.html)

THEY ARE DRINKING BUD LIGHT?!!

Impeach him :mad:

[JPhillips]

You'd prefer they not investigate those calls thoroughly?

In all seriousness, do we live on the same planet?

What did he learn by going into the house that he wouldn't have learned by staying on the porch?

[molson]

I
You're the one pretending we live in a fairy tale world where all cops are angels and everyone they arrest is evil. I'm just saying there is a big grey area in between.

Nope, I've actually criticized police officers multiple times in these threads, questioned (lack of) discipline decisions, and here, supported the very quick termination of one who was just completely out of control.

That's (one of) the differences between you and me. You track record is 100% criticism/hatred. There's no grey areas at all with you. You even carefully screen the information you post here to eliminate anything that might not support your hate. Perfect example here. I don't believe for a second that you didn't know the result of the link you posted. You left it out because it didn't support your crusade. It if supported it, it'd be in there.

I do though, appreciate that you've apparently taking a huge step forward and resisted the temptation, that I know you had, to say, "now, watch molson come in here and say what this cop did was OK". Apparently you draw the line on that just before racism, but after beating up women. Class act.

[molson]

You'd prefer they waste their time doing a thorough investigation on an "incident" where it becomes obvious pretty quickly is BS?


There's still conflicting reports on this so it's tough to draw lines in the sand here.

The police say that the delay/confusion was based on the fact couldn't tell that this was B.S., because Gates wouldnt give them any proper identification, and refused to come outside of the house when they showed up. In other words, Gates was acting very susicipously, and wasn't providing any information to ease that suspicion. I think for most people in this situation, the goal would be to let the police know, ASAP, that this was your house. That wasn't Gates' goal.

You're assuming that the police stayed there past their welcome, well after this was resolved, and that's just not the facts that are known right now.

[flere-imsaho]

Bud Light for the prez - National Politics Blog - Political Intelligence - Boston.com (http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2009/07/bud_light_for_t.html)

THEY ARE DRINKING BUD LIGHT?!!

Impeach him :mad:

I was wondering about that this morning driving in to work (i.e. what beer they'd drink). I figured maybe a good American craft beer would make sense. But Bud Light? Eurgh....

[flere-imsaho]

There's still conflicting reports on this so it's tough to draw lines in the sand here.

I was talking more about the hypothetical, to be honest, in the context of JPhillips' question and Jon's not-really-an-answer.

I think I've actually managed to stay out of this specific argument (on Gates), so you might be confusing me with someone else.

[DaddyTorgo]

There's still conflicting reports on this so it's tough to draw lines in the sand here.

The police say that the delay/confusion was based on the fact couldn't tell that this was B.S., because Gates wouldnt give them any proper identification, and refused to come outside of the house when they showed up. In other words, Gates was acting very susicipously, and wasn't providing any information to ease that suspicion. I think for most people in this situation, the goal would be to let the police know, ASAP, that this was your house. That wasn't Gates' goal.

You're assuming that the police stayed there past their welcome, well after this was resolved, and that's just not the facts that are known right now.

I agree with what mr. molson said, even if his beer tastes like crap

[JonInMiddleGA]

What did he learn by going into the house that he wouldn't have learned by staying on the porch?

For starters, that there weren't five guys inside the house standing there trying to quietly hold a big screen TV without dropping it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

You'd prefer they waste their time doing a thorough investigation on an "incident" where it becomes obvious pretty quickly is BS?

"Could have become" obvious ... didn't because Gates is a grandstanding (and quite possibly from the available info demented) asshole. Who would likely have been tazed, cuffed, and dragged to the car pissing on himself if he had been a white redneck living in a trailer.

Yeah, this isn't Bucc, it's Jon. Of course he's OK with giving exceptional police powers to the state.

If you think trying to thoroughly investigate a possible burglary report is "exceptional police powers" then you must have some incredibly shitty cops.

Sadly though, we know now that this was a losing proposition for the cops who answered the call from the get-go. If they do their job, they get blasted by the racists from the White House all the way down. But if they don't investigate it thoroughly, then they would doubtless be accused by the same group of racists & white guilters of not being interested in crimes against blacks.

I gotta tell you though, if I'm a burglar in the area, I'm just waiting for the reporters to leave the yard before I hit that house. What cop in their right mind would give the house much more than a quick drive-by on a call to that address?

[molson]

I agree with what mr. molson said, even if his beer tastes like crap

Sometimes in college you need to find large amounts of beer for very little money. In upstate NY, molson was often the best option, at least in the stores that didn't sell Utica Club Draft.

[JPhillips]

For starters, that there weren't five guys inside the house standing there trying to quietly hold a big screen TV without dropping it.

No one's claimed he searched the residence. Those five guys could have still been there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

No one's claimed he searched the residence. Those five guys could have still been there.

God help him if he had tried to do a truly thorough search, look what happened when he dared to cross the threshold of the poor widdle downtwodden bwack man's door.

More seriously though, until he deals with the raving blithering nutjob in front of him, he can't do a room by room search anyway. That's asking to get attacked from behind & no cop in the world should ever be that stupid.

[molson]

No one's claimed he searched the residence. Those five guys could have still been there.

If the cops get a 911 call of a break-in, they're going in to check it out if identity isn't established at the door (after a knock and announce).

That's true regardless of the city, state, race of officer, race of anyone at the scene, economic status of neighborhood, etc.

If you a have a problem with that as a general policy that's fine, but this isn't something this officer made up on the spot

[JPhillips]

God help him if he had tried to do a truly thorough search, look what happened when he dared to cross the threshold of the poor widdle downtwodden bwack man's door.

More seriously though, until he deals with the raving blithering nutjob in front of him, he can't do a room by room search anyway. That's asking to get attacked from behind & no cop in the world should ever be that stupid.

So entering the home didn't accomplish anything useful.

[molson]

So entering the home didn't accomplish anything useful.

Sure, not in this case. 95% of officer's actions don't accomplish anything useful. They check so then can help in the 5% of situations where they're needed.

[JonInMiddleGA]

So entering the home didn't accomplish anything useful.

Only because of the obstruction by the (eventually determined) homeowner.

Which is what Gates ought to be prosecuted for, obstruction (or the equivalent wording under locally applicable law).

[ISiddiqui]

I was wondering about that this morning driving in to work (i.e. what beer they'd drink). I figured maybe a good American craft beer would make sense. But Bud Light? Eurgh....

More facts come out!

The Audacity of Hops - Political Punch (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/07/the-audacity-of-hops.html)

The president, we are told, will be drinking Bud Light, Crowley will have Blue Moon, and Gates will have Red Stripe -- Red Light and Blue.

At least he isn't foisting his bad beer choice on them :mad:
Crowley and Gates both made decent choices (I prefer Blue Moon over Red Stripe, but that's probably because I'm a subconcious racist or something :cool: )

[Coffee Warlord]

I gotta tell you though, if I'm a burglar in the area, I'm just waiting for the reporters to leave the yard before I hit that house. What cop in their right mind would give the house much more than a quick drive-by on a call to that address?

God I hate it when I agree with you, Jon. :)

[MacroGuru]

To many pages to dig through, but my friend just sent me this...the ACLU created this one.

Ordering Pizza in 2012
hxxp://www.aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf

[flere-imsaho]

Red Stripe's a decent beer (especially with some lime), and I do like Blue Moon in the summer. Call me deeply disappointed by Obama's beer choice, though. Frankly, I regret voting for him now.

[ISiddiqui]

:D

[cartman]

Imagine the hilarity that would have ensued if Obama had picked a Kenyan beer. :D

[JonInMiddleGA]

Imagine the hilarity that would have ensued if Obama had picked a Kenyan beer. :D

Or even better, a non-alcoholic Kenyan beer.

[lungs]

That's it. I've fully supported Obama this whole time in everything that he is done. But drinking Bud Light is just going too far.

I thought he said he was going to get everybody together for a beer. Not beer-flavored water.

Impeach Obama!

[ISiddiqui]

Hell, Bud isn't even American anymore. It was bought out by Belgian/Brazilian InBev last year! :mad:

[larrymcg421]

I will be donating money to Harry Reid's opponent in 2010.

[CamEdwards]

I don't know what all you hippies are complaining about. Since Obama's picked Bud Light, I've come to realize that he's a regular joe, just like me. Now it all makes sense. I've been so foolish.

[flere-imsaho]

I don't know what all you hippies are complaining about. Since Obama's picked Bud Light, I've come to realize that he's a regular joe, just like me. Now it all makes sense. I've been so foolish.

I'll send you the pony he gave me, then. It's tainted to me, now.

[Karlifornia]

Good choice. Drink Bud Light. Beer snobs are insufferable.

[larrymcg421]

If he'd picked anything else, I'm sure he would've been called "elitist". :)

[sterlingice]

I like how this is reported in big letters as breaking "political" news

SI

[RainMaker]

But completely asshattery like Gates displayed can be.
Asshattery is still not against the law. I often wish it was, but it's not. Gates is a douchebag no doubt, but he didn't break any laws. Sometimes the best thing to do when an old crazy guy is spouting off is to laugh and walk away.

[RainMaker]

Nope, I've actually criticized police officers multiple times in these threads, questioned (lack of) discipline decisions, and here, supported the very quick termination of one who was just completely out of control.

That's (one of) the differences between you and me. You track record is 100% criticism/hatred. There's no grey areas at all with you. You even carefully screen the information you post here to eliminate anything that might not support your hate. Perfect example here. I don't believe for a second that you didn't know the result of the link you posted. You left it out because it didn't support your crusade. It if supported it, it'd be in there.

I do though, appreciate that you've apparently taking a huge step forward and resisted the temptation, that I know you had, to say, "now, watch molson come in here and say what this cop did was OK". Apparently you draw the line on that just before racism, but after beating up women. Class act.

Listen, I just pulled a link from Drudge. I thought that link covered the story pretty well (it said he had been suspended). It wasn't meant to hide anything as the page was filled with more detailed links to the story. It was just a link I saw on Drudge and didn't go through the rest of the stories to post them.

I don't have 100% hatred toward any cops. Most of them are real good guys. I was the best man at a Wisconsin State Troopers wedding a few years back. You are the one who believes that if you criticize a cop, you must hate them all. My gripe with them is that they protect one another too much instead of rooting out the 1% of them who shits on their image. A perfect example would be this story from Miami.

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local-beat/Cops-Set-Up-Woman-After-Crash.html

I also have a much different history than you. My aunt was murdered by her husband and two police officers. The officers had enough pull to literally halt the investigation for many years and cover-up the murder. This was a huge story in the Chicago area many years ago and was made into multiple books and a TV movie on NBC. When you grow up with that in your life, it gives you a different perspective. You see the power they yield and what they can do if they choose to. It's why I'm so adamant about getting bad cops out and having the good ones rat on them. When the FBI had to station people outside our home because they thought the cops would do us harm, you don't grow up with the sunny image you seem to have.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Gates is a douchebag no doubt, but he didn't break any laws.

Bullshit. He interfered with a police officer in the performance of their duties and that's a crime in every jurisdiction I've ever dealt with, it's hard to imagine that even in Cambridge that isn't the case.

[RainMaker]

Bullshit. He interfered with a police officer in the performance of their duties and that's a crime in every jurisdiction I've ever dealt with, it's hard to imagine that even in Cambridge that isn't the case.
He didn't interfere in anything according to the police report. He was arrested for yelling as the officer walked away outside after concluding his investigation. There is nothing in the report that states anything about interfering with his duties.

Where are you getting your information from?

[molson]

He was arrested for yelling as the officer walked away outside after concluding his investigation.

That's a crime, as discussed earlier, c272 S53, MA Code. One can reasonably argue that the officer could have looked the other way, or just issued a citation, or can disagree with Supreme Court precedent that any crime is arrestable, but if you yell at anyone in public, officers included, particularly if it's in this type of manner (yelling about racism), it's a crime. People are arrested ALL the time for being disorderly, usually, as in this case, after multiple warnings. Only a portion of those cases involve yelling at officers. Not every incident of disorderly conduct involves an arrest of course, but officers aren't required to arrest everyone or nobody of any crime. If you go to a Walmart tonight, or the street outside your house, and start yelling at someone, calling them racist, yelling about their 'mama, telling them they don't know who they're messing with - you'll get arrested if there's a cop nearby, and you ignore his warnings to knock it off.

[Glengoyne]

I'm pretty much on the page here with Molson. The cop's behavior was in bounds. Gates' not so much. Gates didn't have to be arrested for yelling at the cops and dishing out abuse, but once you cross a certain line your behavior becomes susceptible to arrest. Gates crossed that line.

For his trouble the cop at least gets to meet the President, and have a beer and a shit sandwich at the White House.

[RainMaker]

Charges were dropped though. Obviously the DA feels a bit differently about his chances in court.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Charges were dropped though. Obviously the DA feels a bit differently about his chances in court.

Do you really believe it had anything to do with "his chances in court"?

The DA simply took the politically correct route & proved himself to be a chickenshit that wasn't willing to accept the whining that would go along with doing his job.

[RainMaker]

Do you really believe it had anything to do with "his chances in court"?

The DA simply took the politically correct route & proved himself to be a chickenshit that wasn't willing to accept the whining that would go along with doing his job.
God forbid people yell. Do you suggest we arrest everyone at a college football game? Everyone who yells at the guy who cut them off? The guy is a loudmouth blowhard. Who gives a shit? He wasn't hurting anyone and the community wasn't any safer for the arrest.

Cops and DAs should go after real criminals. Not a guy who's pissed off that cops demanded identification so he could be in his own house.

[panerd]

Do you really believe it had anything to do with "his chances in court"?

The DA simply took the politically correct route & proved himself to be a chickenshit that wasn't willing to accept the whining that would go along with doing his job.


I think it had to do with both and that was why it was a no-brainer. When I was in college I got arrested for disturbing the peace and I was really actually disturbing the peace. And the DA didn't think it was worth the time or money to press charges. There's no doubt though that the threat of negative PR made the decision all the easier for the DA is this case.

[DaddyTorgo]

God forbid people yell. Do you suggest we arrest everyone at a college football game? Everyone who yells at the guy who cut them off? The guy is a loudmouth blowhard. Who gives a shit? He wasn't hurting anyone and the community wasn't any safer for the arrest.

Cops and DAs should go after real criminals. Not a guy who's pissed off that cops demanded identification so he could be in his own house.

once again - they had no proof that it was his house at the time the yelling began

[Big Fo]

I'm pretty bummed out about the Bud Light. I wish Hillary had won now.

[molson]

Charges were dropped though. Obviously the DA feels a bit differently about his chances in court.

Most criminal charges end up getting dropped.

Yelling at a football game doesn't fall under that statute, IMO, because you're not being "disorderly", you're acting appropriately for where you are. But yes, obviously everyone who commits that crime isn't arrested, very few are. That's very common with low-level offenses. I actually believe, as I stated a few pages ago, that state legislatures need to make these disturbing the peace/disorderly conduct statutes more specific, so officers have more guidance and less discretion as to what conduct is covered. But the thing is, the legislatures (through the people), LIKE the fact that cops have so much discretion. Generally, the people want officers to use their gut instincts, their knowledge of the streets, to use their discretion in a wise way. But once there's discretion, there will ALWAYS be disagreement about how officers use it, no matter what. I think officers, in general, want to have less discretion - they'd rather the arrest decision be black and white, easy, someone else's call.

[RainMaker]

once again - they had no proof that it was his house at the time the yelling began
They arrested him while they were leaving and had already verified it was his place. Some of you guys need to read the arrest report.

[Glengoyne]

Charges were dropped though. Obviously the DA feels a bit differently about his chances in court.

That doesn't mean that they weren't legitimate, just not worth pursuing.

[molson]

They arrested him while they were leaving and had already verified it was his place. Some of you guys need to read the arrest report.

This has nothing to do with what DT said.

[JPhillips]

Wow, according to a Research 2000 poll 28% of Republicans believe Obama wasn't born in the U.S. Now I understand why Congressional Republicans are so reluctant to engage the issue directly.

[ISiddiqui]

I REALLY need a new party :(

[Galaxy]

Wow, according to a Research 2000 poll 28% of Republicans believe Obama wasn't born in the U.S. Now I understand why Congressional Republicans are so reluctant to engage the issue directly.

Wasn't the left side going after McCain being born a US-born citizen? Both parties do the same thing.

[Galaxy]

I also like the governor of Texas fighting D.C. over health care with secession.

[RainMaker]

Wasn't the left side going after McCain being born a US-born citizen? Both parties do the same thing.
I don't think it was pushed real hard on the left. I mean the Obama birther movement has stretched to top politicians in Washington and many of the mouthpieces that fuel the party.

I'm sure the left has some odd factions inside, but the fact the birther movement has gotten so mainstream in the Republican party is pretty sad.

[RainMaker]

I also like the governor of Texas fighting D.C. over health care with secession.
Then begging the CDC to send flu vaccines when H1N1 broke.

[flere-imsaho]

Wasn't the left side going after McCain being born a US-born citizen? Both parties do the same thing.

It's a little different. McCain was quite clearly born in the Panama Canal Zone and the question of whether or not he could be President was more one of legal technicalities, as summarized here: McCain’s Canal Zone Birth Prompts Queries About Whether That Rules Him Out - New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html)

Obama's birth certificate has now become a matter of record, with copies posted all over the internet and verified by countless people. The 28% of Republicans who don't think he was born in the U.S. just think he's just lying about the validity of this official document, even when it's been confirmed valid by the proper authorities.

[molson]

It's a little different. McCain was quite clearly born in the Panama Canal Zone and the question of whether or not he could be President was more one of legal technicalities, as summarized here: McCain’s Canal Zone Birth Prompts Queries About Whether That Rules Him Out - New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html)

Obama's birth certificate has now become a matter of record, with copies posted all over the internet and verified by countless people. The 28% of Republicans who don't think he was born in the U.S. just think he's just lying about the validity of this official document, even when it's been confirmed valid by the proper authorities.

The original birth certificate has never been released. If that was a case with a Republican, there'd be similar controversy.

And what's the latest numbers about how many Democrats think 9/11 was an inside job?

I looked it up, 35% of Dems think Bush knew of 9/11 ahead of time, which I think would qualify as an "inside job":

Rasmussen Reports&trade;: The Most Comprehensive Public Opinion Data Anywhere (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/bush_administration/22_believe_bush_knew_about_9_11_attacks_in_advance)

[RainMaker]

The original birth certificate has never been released. If that was a case with a Republican, there'd be similar controversy.

And what's the latest numbers about how many Democrats think 9/11 was an inside job?

I looked it up, 35% of Dems think Bush knew of 9/11 ahead of time, which I think would qualify as an "inside job":

Rasmussen Reports™: The Most Comprehensive Public Opinion Data Anywhere (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/bush_administration/22_believe_bush_knew_about_9_11_attacks_in_advance)

While the "truthers" exist, that poll isn't a good gauge. Asking whether Bush knew in advance means a lot of things to people. Is it he knew the exact plan that would take place? Or that he simply knew there was a threat to fly planes into buildings? There were those in the CIA who felt that was a very credible threat and had briefed high level officials about that.

Asking whether 9/11 was perpetrated by the Bush administration would be a better poll.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

This seems to me to be a great chance for us all to hold hands, sing Kumbaya, and admit that both Birthers and Truthers are fucking crazy.